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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day018.07

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day018.07
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It depends a bit what the question is.  Tell
        me what the question is going to be and then I will decide
        whether you can ask it.
   MR IRVING:  The question will be:  Witness, if you see
        photographs of members of my staff whom I have
        employed over the last 20 years, does it strike you that
        I am a racist?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is your reaction to that?
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, can I say this?  This witness is not here
        to give evidence about whether or not Mr Irving is a racist.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is perfectly open to cross-examination,
        I think, on his view.  He may say, "I cannot answer
        because I have not seen the documents or seen the evidence".
   MR RAMPTON:  With respect, I do not think he can. He is here as
        an expert in history.  He is not here as an expert in racism.
   MR IRVING:  He has accused me of anti-semitism and racism in
        his report.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, it is for your Lordship to decide in

.          P-55

        the end, and opinion evidence about whether or not Mr
        Irving is a racist is not admissible, with respect.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not so sure about that.  The trouble is
        with this report I am not able to go to the passage that
        I think may be there.  Unless you seek to argue it very
        strongly, Mr Rampton, I am inclined to accept that it can
        be put to this witness, I do not know what his answer is
        going to be, that Mr Irving has over the years employed a
        number of coloured people, does that have any influence on
        this witness's views of his agenda, if there is one?
   MR RAMPTON:  That may be right but, if the witness is entitled
        to express a view about that, which I doubt because he is
        an historian, not a sociologist, even if he were a
        sociologist, I doubt it would help your Lordship, but he
        is not.  But it would involve his being shown everything
        that I relied on as showing that Mr Irving is a racist,
        and only in the light of that information can this witness
        fairly answer a question about the colour of the skin of
        Mr Irving's servants.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I suspect that the position actually is with
        Professor Evans that he knows pretty much what the
        Defendants' case on this.
   MR RAMPTON:  I do not know whether he does or not.  I certainly
        have not discussed it with him.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Shall we find out?  Professor Evans, have you
        been reading the transcripts of this case?

.          P-56

   A.   Yes, I have.
   Q.   Have you seen the cross-examination that took place on the
        issue of racism?
   A.   Yes, I have.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am going to permit the question, but I do
        not think we want to spend terribly long on this.
   MR IRVING:  Very well.  I am landing you a clip of five pages
        of photographs.  Can you see the date on the earliest
        one?  Is it 1980?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Does it appear to show a female of Barbadian or Caribbean
        descent standing at the door of the car, a Rolls Royce,
        with her mother?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Will you turn the page, please?  Does this show another
        woman of ethnic origin, of coloured origin?
   A.   It is hard to tell.
   Q.   Asian or black?
   A.   Possibly.
   Q.   Can you just look briefly at all the others and confirm
        that they are all ethnics working in an office?
   A.   They are indeed.
   Q.   Apparently quite content?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Would you accept from me that they were all my personal
        assistants over the years concerned, and that they

.          P-57

        received a proper salary from me?
   A.   Have you got documentary proof of that?
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   Could I have a look at it, please?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, let us take it as read that these
        ladies were all employed by Mr Irving.  Does that, in your
        view, Professor Evans, affect the question whether, in his
        writings and in what he said, Mr Irving has displayed
        evidence of a racist attitude?  That is the question.
        Then we are going to move on.
   A.   Yes.  In the end I do not think it does, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right.  Now lets move to something else,
        Mr Irving.
   MR IRVING:  Yes.  This is another contentious issue, but we
        will deal with it very rapidly.  Professor Evans, you have
        heard Mr Rampton talk about the expense of this trial and
        about how much it is costing per day no doubt?
   A.   No.
   Q.   Are you aware of the fact that the trial is costing a
        considerable amount each day that it runs?
   A.   I imagine it must be.  I have no idea how much.
   Q.   In the little bundle of documents I gave you, headed "from
        Monday" will you see one page from the transcript, about
        page 8 or thereabouts, headed January 28th 2000?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Does this transcript appear to show that I have suggested

.          P-58

        to the court that, if they were to send members of the
        Defence to Krakow to scrape the roof off the alleged gas
        chamber at Auschwitz and find the holes, I would wind up
        the case immediately because I could not possibly continue
        with my complaint?
   A.   Yes, and the witness says he cannot comment on that.
   Q.   The witness says he cannot comment, that is quite right.
        To your knowledge, has any attempt been made by the
        Defence to end the case rapidly in this dramatic way?
   A.   I cannot really comment on that, I am afraid, any more
        than the witness you questioned could comment.  I am not
        an expert on Auschwitz, Mr Irving.  I am not here to
        answer questions about Auschwitz.  I am here to answer
        questions on my report.  So far, you have hardly asked a
        single one.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is for me, Professor Evans, thank you
        very much.
   MR IRVING:  His Lord is aware of these problems that we have
        with the presentation of the Defence witnesses in this
        case.  Are you familiar with the fact that a number of
        Defence witnesses in this case are not going to be giving evidence?
   A.   I think one or two of them are not.  I am not quite sure
   Q.   Are you aware of the fact that the Second Defendant is not
        going to give evidence, Professor Lipstadt?

.          P-59

   A.   Professor Lipstadt, yes, I am aware of that.
   Q.   And that Professor Levin and Professor Eatwell will not be
        giving evidence?
   A.   Yes, that is right. I understand, my Lord, that the
        Defence are perfectly entitled to do that.
   Q.   Yes, and I make no criticism of them for that.  Am I
        allowed to put to him a page of Professor Eatwell's
        report, my Lord?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In principle, yes.
   MR IRVING:  It would be page 74, paragraph 4.6.  I can read out
        the lines concerned?
   A.   Could I have a copy, please?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It might be simpler, Professor Evans, if you
        hear the line that is going to be read to you and see
        whether you need the context.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I think this probably goes to a matter we
        have dealt with, so I am not going to ask it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  All right.
   MR IRVING:  I am sorry, yes, he does need it.  Page 76 now.
        I think I ought just to refer in fact to page 74, to what
        Professor Eatwell about the matter we disposed of.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Page 74, paragraph 4.6, at line 9 Professor Eatwell, who
        was one of the experts who was working in tandem with you
        writes:  "Yet Irving is an open advocate of the
        repatriation of immigrants.  The fact that he has employed

.          P-60

        'coloured' people does prove he is liberal".  This is
        Professor Eatwell's view.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "The point here is not simply that he might perceive the
        advantages of this practice in terms of defusing charges
        of racism." In other words, Professor Eatwell, can I take
        it, is there suggesting that I deliberately employed this
        coloured staff in order not to be accused of racism?
   A.   I think he is suggesting it is a possibility, though
        I cannot answer for him what he intends there.
   Q.   It makes it very difficult for people, does it not, that
        we are hanged if we do and we are shot if we do not, so to
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think that is really a question.
        That is a comment that you can make at the end of the case.
   MR IRVING:  It is. The question I would ask Professor Evans,
        then, is what does it take to prove that one is not racist
        if one employs coloured people in exactly the same way as
        one employs whites, one does not prefer them or
        disadvantage them in any way, one pays them exactly the
        same amount.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That again, if I may say so, Mr Irving, is
        really argument and I understand the argument.  But I do
        not think that Professor Evans can do much more on racism
        than he has done by his previous answers.

.          P-61

   MR IRVING:  Will you now go to page 76, Professor Eatwell?
   A.   My name is Evans, not Eatwell.  I did not write this
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Professor Evans, will you take it that
        between us we will try and keep the questioning
   A.   OK.  It is just that I do find it very difficult to answer
        questions on other people's reports which I have not
        written, which I have not researched, and which were not
        written in tandem with me but were written independently.
   MR IRVING:  We are appealing here to your common sense as a
        learned person really, asking for your opinion.
   A.   But I am here as an expert, Mr Irving.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us get on.
   MR IRVING:  I am sure that his Lordship would have no objection
        if you wish to sit actually, Professor.
   A.   I am happier standing actually. It makes moving around
        with the documents easier.
   Q.   Page 76 at paragraph 4.11 the same kind of argument.
        Again, it is by Professor Eatwell and not yourself but
        I am entitled, I think, to put the question to you.  "The
        fact that Irving has on occasion made some criticisms of
        Hitler does not prove that he is an anti-fascist.  There
        are clear tactical reasons to adopt such a position." Is
        this your argument also, Professor Evans?
   A.   I think he is concerned here with your current political

.          P-62

        position, whereas I am concerned with your historical
   Q.   Yes.  So would you argue the fact that, and I shall show
        you this next week, I have made large numbers of
        statements in my biographies of various top Nazis, which
        can in no way be described as proHitler or proNazi, would
        you agree with Professor Eatwell's inference or imputation
        that I have done this in order to defuse criticism and for
        no other reason?
   A.   You would have to show me the statements first before
        I could comment on them.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is, I suppose, in a way a legitimate
        answer, but can I just persuade you that it can be
        answered generally in this way?  It is right, if you read
        Hitler's War, that there are critical statements made
        about Hitler, quite a number of them, and the question is
        simply this, and perhaps you would be good enough to try
        and answer it.  Have you seen evidence that those are
        inserted into Hitler's War for what you might call
        tactical reasons, in other words for Mr Irving to be able
        to draw attention to them and use them in disproof of any
        allegation that he is a Hitler partisan?
   A.   That is very speculative, I think.  What I do do in my
        report is to go through some of the critical points that
        Mr Irving makes, and they do not, in my view, detract from
        the fact that he is in general someone who admires Hitler,

.          P-63

        put it like that.  I would not really want to speculate on
        why they are being put in for political, what political
        reasons they might be put in for, which is really what
        Professor Eatwell is talking about.  I think he is talking
        about something slightly different.  My concern is with
        Mr Irving's attitude toward Hitler in his historical
        writings.  Of course, there are criticisms of Hitler
        there, I perfectly accept that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is, if I may say so, a perfectly
        complete and fair answer.
   A.   It is not really a concern of mine to show why they have
        been put there.

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