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Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

MR IRVING:  Well, risking your Lordship's wrath, I am going to
  go to page 22, which is something different, line 5.
  Again, you have Himmler saying basically every Jew is to
  be regarded as a partisan.  So I must insist therefore
  that the December 18th document shows the initiative came
  from Himmler and not from Hitler to regard the Jews as
  partisans, because this is Himmler stating already back in
  July.  He keeps on saying this, that the Jews are to be
  regarded as partisans, so what Hitler may then discuss
  with Himmler in December is neither here nor there
  really.  Would you agree?
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This is a new proposition.
MR IRVING:  Well, my Lord perhaps I am expressing myself wrongly.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It was discussed between Himmler and Hitler

. P-97

  but that it is neither here nor there?
MR IRVING:  No.  The proposition that I am making, my Lord, is
  that the initiative for regarding the Jews as partisans
  came not from Hitler to Himmler, but the other way round.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not suppose Mr Rampton is particularly
  bothered one way or the other.  The point he makes is that
  Hitler agreed upon it as a policy.  Am I wrong about that?
MR RAMPTON:  I do not care whether Hitler initiated it or
  whether he ratified it.  It does not matter a row of
  beans.  The fact is he was in on it, in on the murder of
  1.2 million innocent people.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think that is the point, Mr Irving.
MR IRVING:  The reason that it matters a row of beans is
  because we are looking at Hitler's state of mind and if,
  as in the Reichskristallnacht, the initiative for that
  came from Goebbels, and the initiative for this comes from
  Himmler, tells us something about the likelihood of
  issuing orders, particularly when in the spring of 1942 we
  find a weary Fuhrer saying, "For God's sake, let us leave
  it all until the war is over".  It helps to justify that.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The issue between the parties which I have to
  consider in the context of whether you have dealt with
  this responsibly is not whether it was initiated, all this
  killing, by Hitler, but whether he knew about it.  We are
  on Hitler's knowledge, not on whether he was the

. P-98

  originator of all this.
MR IRVING:  My Lord, I wholeheartedly endorse the position that
  your Lordship adopts on that and your Lordship will see
  from the position that I put in the two pages this morning
  that I have never challenged that he was involved in every
  way in the killing of the Jews behind the Eastern Front.
  However, when this goes to Hitler's's state of mind, so
  that we can judge the likelihood of the Schlegelberger
  document being an accurate portrayal of his intentions or
  not, then I am entitled to draw attention to whether the
  initiative came from Himmler or from Hitler on this
  particular occasion, I think, if I can put it like that.
  I regret if I am expressing myself so obscurely that your
  Lordship does not see the purpose behind my questions sometimes.
Page 23, paragraph 2.7.2, it goes really to the
  same matter.  "These shootings were carried out", you
  write, "under the pretext of 'retribution', punishment for
  'plundering' or portrayed as a struggle against
  partisans".  If there was a Fuhrer order to kill Jews, why
  would they need the pretexts?  Surely, that would
  overwrite any need for any kind of pretext, would it not,
  if the eyewitnesses are right?
A.  Well, they in their reports prefer to give specific
  reasons for the killing.  They were not just saying, "We
  are killing these people because they are Jews".  They

. P-99

  had, obviously, there was a kind of order to actually
  attach to each killing a kind of reason which could be, a
  kind of rational argument, you know, why they killed this
  particular group.  They do not -- in their reports they do
  not refer to a written order by Hitler in these reports.
Q.  But when Eisenhower gave orders to kill all the Germans,
  as he did, he did not say, "We are going to do this as a
  pretext that they are plundering and looting" ----
A.  I cannot comment on ----
Q.  --- the orders from the Supreme Commander were good enough?
A.  I cannot comment on Eisenhower.  I am not familiar with
  the order given by Eisenhower to kill all the Germans, sorry.
Q.  The first two lines of page 24, please.  You say: "The
  behaviour of the units followed a standardized pattern
  which however was not altogether uniform".  Does that not
  suggest that there was no system, that there was no
  systematic order?
A.  Well, I mean, I spent here about 20 pages to describe the
  actions of the different Kommandos and, as you rightly
  say, there are, for instance, some differences so far as
  the numbers of victims is concerned, when actually
  Kommando A started to kill women and Kommando B started to
  kill women.  So I think one can argue that there is a
  standardised pattern but it is not completely uniform.

. P-100

  They did not start on the same day, on the very same day,
  for instance, the killing of children.  It varies a little
  bit between unit and unit.  So I preferred this phrase
  "pattern".  It is not completely uniform.  But it is a
  standardized pattern.
Q.  But not very systematic?
A.  It is a standardized pattern and I think it allows us to
  say that this was a part of a system.
Q.  Page 26, the first three lines, we are dealing now with an
  explicit order of Himmler which, I suppose, is of
  significance.  You say this is an explicit of
  Himmler. "All Jews must be shot.  Jewish women to be
  driven into the swamp"?
A.  Yes.
Q.  You say:  "From a radio telegraph text we can read this".
  Now, what is your source for that?  Is it the actual radio
  telegraph text?
A.  Well, the radio telegraph text is quoted in the wording of
  the branch(?) record.  The whole files of the branch
  record are kept in the State archive of [German].  I spent
  two days this summer actually to read this source and
  I can assure you that this document is in the files of
  this particular court case.
Q.  Is it an actual radio telegraph text or something recorded by or ----
A.  No, actually it is a copy ----

. P-101

Q.  --- remembered by?
A.  --- of the radio telegraph text.  The original is kept in
  the military archive in Feiberg.
Q.  You have not provided the German text for us so it is ----
A.  No, I have not provided the German text for it.
MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, we have got the text.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I would like to see it.
MR IRVING:  It is quite important.
MR RAMPTON:  I do not know which report this comes from, it
  might be Longerich, it might be Browning.  I really cannot say.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is important because I think it is
  Mr Irving's present position that there was never a stage
  when all Jews were ordered to be shot.
MR RAMPTON:  Which document is it?
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is note 119, top of page 26.
MR RAMPTON:  Yes, well, then the date is 1st August, same day
  as the Muller order.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is not in N1, I do not think.
MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  It is page 48.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry.  I missed it.
A.  Yes, 48.  That is it, yes.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have looked at this before.
MR RAMPTON:  I do not know what this document is, mind, but the
  witness could tell us that, I expect.
MR IRVING:  It appears to be a genuine carbon copy, does it

. P-102

  not?  Yes, a carbon copy of a document.
A.  Yes, I recall that in the -- I have seen the copy.  This
  is here a [German].  This is the German, the document,
  this is the standard German form for a radio message.  So
  the document is there and I have seen that and there is no
  doubt that this is authentic.
Q.  It is very difficult to cross-examine on this document
  because it is so skimpy.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You will have to put your case.
MR IRVING:  I have to.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are you saying that Himmler ----
MR IRVING:  Are you satisfied that this document accurately
  reflects an order of Heinrich Himmler?
A.  Yes.  He was there, he was there.  At this stage he was in
  the appropriate marches.
Q.  Who is the SS Obersturmfuhrer who is an adjutant who has
  signed this document, to your knowledge?
A.  It is in the -- the court managed to identify this man.
  I cannot recall the name at the moment.
Q.  Was he on Himmler's staff on or somebody else's staff?
A.  This is -- no, he is the adjutant of the Reitenabteilung.
  The Reitenabteilung, this is the cavalry, the mounted
  cavalry, battalion actually of this SS cavalry regiment.
  The name of the adjutant is known and I just not recall
  the name at the moment, but he was identified in the court

. P-103

Q.  The question I am asking is, he is not Himmler's adjutant
  who is sending the order?
A.  No, but Himmler was there.  At this time he actually gave
  the order verbally and this was then included into this
  telegram and the message was sent.
Q.  What was the range of this order, do you think?  Did it
  relate just to the activities of this particular mounted unit?
A.  Well, this relates ----
Q.  Mounted troop?
A.  This relates clearly to the killing, systematic killing,
  of Jews in the -- this was what they called a pacification
  action, and these are the guidelines given for this
  pacification action to actually, well, clean the
  appropriate swamps.
Q.  Yes.  So we are actually referring to the Pripyat marshes then?
A.  I am trying to be as objective as possible.  I cannot say
  that this is -- you cannot read it as a general, you
  cannot read it as a general order.
Q.  My question was, what was the range of the order?  Was it
  just directed to this one troop, this one mounted troop,
  all Jews within their reach, presumably?
A.  Well, it was actually an order given here to the mounted
  elements, so that is the best translation of the cavalry
  Regiment 2.  These were about, I think, 800 or 1,000 men

. P-104

  and they carried then out this action.  And you can see
  I have quoted this on page 25, this was part of the action
  to kill, in which they killed 14,178 Jews, as they reported.
Q.  Are you familiar with the scale of partisan warfare in the
  Pripyat marshes?
A.  At this stage, at this very early stage, at the beginning
  of August, there was actually the scale of partisan
  activity in the Pripyat marshes was low.  What actually
  happened was that some actually, well, some soldiers of
  the Red Army managed to get into the Pripyat marshes and
  tried to hide there.  But the partisan activity was at
  this stage relatively low compared with what would happen
  in '42 or'43.
Q.  Had Marshal Stalin issued early in July a broadcast
  proclamation to the entire Russian civilian population to
  rise up in arms against the invaders?
A.  Yes, that is true, but, on the other hand, they were no
  organization and preparation made for this kind war, so
  they had to improvise that and they were at this stage not
  actually able to fight an organized partisan warfare
  against the Germans.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think the suggestion is, just so that it is
  clear, that the 14,000 odd Jews who were shot following
  this order were justifiably shot because they were partisans?

. P-105

A.  No, the report makes a distinction between partisans and
  Jews, so they were -- it is clear that the Jews were
  killed in the course of anti-partisan action, but they
  were not identified as partisans.
MR IRVING:  My Lord, I am not making that suggestion.  The only
  substantive question I do want answered properly is what
  was the scope of the order to kill all the Jews?  Was it
  just all the Jews within the operational area of this one
  mounted troop?
A.  Well, the problem is, this is not a mounted troop.  It is
  the fighting elements of a regiment.
Q.  "Reitenabteilung" is a mounted troop.
A.  Yes, so this is, well, quite, this has quite a size, this
  mounted element, and this is one document we have where
  Himmler is very explicit.  We know that he travelled
  through the occupied territories quite frequently and here
  we have actually this document, and I think it is a clear
  indication what he was saying to the other units during
  these other visits.
Q.  Yes.
A.  Here we have one case where we actually have written
  evidence for that.
Q.  Yes, but you appreciate the reason I am asking the
  question, Dr Longerich, is if a signal is shown to us
  saying that Himmler has ordered all the Jews are to be
  shot, we want to know is he talking about all the Jews

. P-106

  within the Third Reich or just all the Jews within
  the  ----
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You have your answer about that.  It is
MR IRVING:  If the answer is clear.Very well.  Page 35,
  please.  Does this not strike you as remarkable,
  Dr Longerich, that every time we get an order from the
  Fuhrer, that there is a Fuhrer befehl, it turns out to be
  testimony 17 or 20 or 30 years later and there is nothing
  at all in the documents, even though we have seen
  documents like the one we have just been looking at, which
  talk about Himmler orders, there is nothing of a similar
  quality talking about a Hitler order?
A.  You are referring to a particular part of this page or?
Q.  Page 35, line 1.
A.  Yes, well, to make this -- I mean, I think I made my point
  very clear.  I am trying here in this report, I am trying
  to show you that this was carried out on a systematic
  basis and, in order to link these events with Hitler's
  role, I think we -- this has been said yesterday -- have
  this Muller letter from 1st August which shows us that
  Hitler was quite aware of what was going on because he got
  on a continuous basis, he get the Einsatzgruppen meldung.
  And I think this is quite clear that he was informed about it.
I do not say, did not say, that I have here an

. P-107

  explicit order with a letter head of Adolf Hitler and the
  signature which says that he orders the killing of the
  Russian Jews, but I think it has been established here,
  quite clearly, that he was informed about these events.
Q.  I do not want to labour the point too much, but we do have
  now, and we have been having it for the last four or five
  weeks, document after document of this quality which
  incriminates Himmler and people like him, but not one
  single document of equal quality which incriminates Hitler.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I am sorry to intervene again.  You
  have made that point many, many times.  It is accepted by
  Dr Longerich that there is not a Hitler Befehl in relation
  to these shootings.  He has made it absolutely clear why
  he says that Hitler knew and approved what was going on.
MR IRVING:  On the basis of the Muller document ----
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  There is no point in asking that same
  question again and again.  I know your point, there is not
  a Hitler order that anyone has found, so you need not ask
  that question again.  I have the point.  There is not a
  Hitler order.
MR IRVING:  Although, logically, there should be one found.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, there are all sorts of reasons why
  there may not be one, but there is not one.  That is the
  point and you can, of course, develop that in your closing
  submissions.  There no point in going on asking the

. P-108

  question because you get the same answer that I think I
  have heard three times from this witness already.
MR IRVING:  The actual question was, is it not remarkable it is
  always testimony 20 or 30 years after the event, like this
  one here, which links it to a Hitler order which is
  self-serving testimony.
A.  I would not agree this is, you cannot say this is all
  self-serving testimony because some of the people
  interrogated are eyewitnesses, but this report is about
  the systematic nature.  The first report we discussed
  yesterday is about Hitler's role.  The aim of the report
  is to show you, give you an idea, about the systematic
  nature of this warfare.  It is not the intention of this
  part of this report to actually prove Hitler's role.
  I mean, it is not the focus of the point.  It is the one
  we discussed yesterday.
Q.  For example, in this same paragraph, 3.3.2, if you would
  just go back over the page to the bottom of page 34, it is
  the indication that the order came from Ohlendorf.  Was
  Ohlendorf dead at the time of this testimony?
A.  Dead?
Q.  Yes.  In 1969 he was dead, was he not?
A.  Yes.  He was hanged in '48, was he not?
Q.  Did you ever get to see the private papers of Ohlendorf?
A.  No, they are not, I think, as far as I am aware, they are
  not publicly accessible.

. P-109

Q.  His widow has them.
A.  Yes.  I know -- yes, sorry.

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