Archive/File: holocaust/deniers kleim.0494
Last-Modified: 1994/07/08

From oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!umn.edu!msus1.msus.edu!TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU!HERMANN Mon Apr 18 15:49:40 PDT 1994
Article: 11023 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seven Questions for Milton Kleim (Round 3)
Message-ID: <1994Apr17.223330.9941@msus1.msus.edu>
From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Date: 17 Apr 94 22:33:29 -0500
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
References: <1994Apr13.141716.9801@msus1.msus.edu>,<2ok3q2$rg7@info.census.gov>
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
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Lisa Nyman comments on my post:

>>While I will not be drawn into further dialogue -- useless dialogue --
>>with anyone on the Net at this time, I will not refrain from commenting 
>>on Mr. McVay's thrice repeated "Questions" post directed to me.

>Comment yes, answer no.

Do you think I care if *you* accept my answers?

>>The facts are plain to see for anyone willing to do some basic re-
>>search in a medium-sized library.  I will not excuse the laziness
>>of my detractors, and post a comprehensive list and explanation
>>of the Jewish Occupational Government to appease them.  As a starter
 
>But then he writes:

>[Ken asking about the Himmler speech]

>>The burden of proof rests on Mr. McVay.  I do not have to prove the
>>speech genuine, but rather those who assert it *is* must demonstrate
>>*beyond a reasonable doubt* that it is indeed genuine.  

Again, I do not care what your side thinks.  If your side refuses to accept
the existence of alien control over the United States and Canada, oh well.
Anyone who is interested in learning about this alien influence can find out
on their own.

>What about the murdering of entire communities?  What happened to
>the Jews of Kiev?  

When the Ukrainian people found out what Jewish Bolsheviks had done to their
fathers and husbands, they took their revenge upon the Jews in the area.  
Perhaps the Jews they eliminated were largely innocent, but their culture 
is what spawned Marxism and its offshoots in the first place (and of course
your reply will be that some of the Jews were "atheists", yet the Jews 
blame the German people, or even the entire Aryan race for the development of 
National Socialism; collective guilt to me, collective guilt to you).

>Doesn't that count as extermination or do you only deny the gas chambers?

I deny the existence of a systematic policy of extermination against Jews,
Gypsies, and other non-Whites by the legally-elected government of Adolf
Hitler.  There is no evidence for such a systematic policy, nor for "gas
chambers."

Anyone who denies the deaths of many thousands of Jews during the war 
either is ignorant, a fool, or a kook.

-- HERMANN


From oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!umn.edu!msus1.msus.edu!TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU!HERMANN Mon Apr 18 15:50:42 PDT 1994
Article: 11024 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: RE: Revisionism: denial of the human animal
Message-ID: <1994Apr17.230354.9942@msus1.msus.edu>
From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Date: 17 Apr 94 23:03:53 -0500
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
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Nicola Demonte writes:

>I am surprised that "Revisionism" has been given a place in our 
>society like some type of category in history.  

Why?  Do you feel that whatever the Establishment says is truth?
Are we not allowed to question what is fed to us by the media?

>The basis for Revisionism or denying the holocaust (and/or it's 
>numbers) is primarily due to: 1) ignorance of the facts, per-
>petuated by racist (neo-nazi) anti-semites

You are ignorant of the purpose of revisionism.  Revisionism
exists to bring history into accord with the facts.  We revision-
ists have asked over and over to be provided with an explanation
of the gross inconsistencies in the "Holocaust" tale, and have
earnestly asked for proof of these alleged "gas chambers."  To
this day, no revisionist has been provided with anything that
comes close to proof.  The Holocau$t tale is not history, but
religion.

Revisionists *fight* ignorance, not perpetuate it.

>...and 2) the disbelief 
>that human beings have the ability to organize mass genocide.  

I have no doubts about the cruel capabilities of humankind.  I
have seen first hand how a human can be cruel to another.  

One of the emotions which generates the most powerful ability 
to inflict pain and suffering is that of self-defense, or the
defense of one's loved ones.  The German people inflicted 
great cruelty upon those who tried (and succeeded) in hurting
their people and nation, but it did not involve genocide.

>Man has violent tendencies, it is part of his nature, his 
>character.  The number of Jews, slavs, and the mentally ill 
>that were killed have been debated by the revisionists as 
>being innacurate or falsely created by Jewish historians.  No 
>one wants to face the fact that man has the ability to kill 
>on the basis of culture, race and religion, but we must address 
>this issue by examining the facts: the National Socialist German 
>Workers Party (NSDAP), under Adolf Hitler, organized the syste-
>matic killing of those individuals who did not fall under the 
>category of "Aryans".  

I accept the fact that individuals, and aggregates of individuals,
from groups to races, inflict genocide upon others, as a form of
self-defense or self-advancement.  

There is nothing immoral for a people to use all necessary means 
to defend their vital interests, interests that if they were 
jeopardized would result in their extinction.  

The German people used extreme means to defend themselves, but it 
did not climax in genocide, even though genocide was the goal of 
some of their enemies.

>How long will people support the views of a long lost ideology 
>such as National Socialism? 

National Socialism is no more a "lost ideology" than Christianity
was a "lost religion" after the execution of Jesus Christ or Paul.
National Socialism represents the best world-view to achieve White
self-determination, or the right of Aryans to choose how they shall
live with whom they shall live, *the* most fundamental human right. 

>When will people realize that as long as one group can be 
>discriminated against, no one is safe from racism?

Anyone who believes that group antagonism can be eliminated is a
fool.  Even if no races exist, human society is structured upon
boundaries and with a direction which sets it apart and against 
others.  This is a law of Nature, and only those who reject or do 
not understand Nature ignore this.

>When revisionists debate the Holocaust issue, they should focus 
>on what kind of society they wish to create.

Not all revisionists are political.  Some are very apolitical.  Some
are oblivious to social concerns, and are only concerned with their
field.

By fighting against the fraud of the Holocau$t, I am working for 
the construction of a happier society, a society where my race 
and nation can be happy and in control of its Destiny, but also
where other creatures may live in reasonable comfort too, even 
Jews.

-- HERMANN

-- No Guilt -- No Remorse --
-- White Pride -- White Power! --




From oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!umn.edu!msus1.msus.edu!TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU!HERMANN Mon Apr 18 15:51:46 PDT 1994
Article: 11026 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seven Questions for Milton Kleim (Round 3)
Message-ID: <1994Apr17.220805.9937@msus1.msus.edu>
From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Date: 17 Apr 94 22:08:04 -0500
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
References: <2ok5pe$m2f@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
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Danny Keren replies to my post:

Since I am way ahead of schedule for the task which I am working on, I have 
decided to use my free-time to respond to posts which comment upon my recent 
response to the Old Fart's "questions"

[large parts of my post deleted, including a relevant sentence to the following
 comment]

># When they do so, I will consider the argument that the T-4 program used 
>#"gas chambers."  Until then, I will accept the only logical explanation
># regarding the tools used to implement the T-4 euthanasia program -- 
># individual respiratory equipment to administer gas (when lethal 
># injections were not utilized).

>Sigh - this is really incredible.  Do you *really* don't understand
>what is being asked of you? 

I understand what he wants.

>You *believe* gas was used.  *Why* do you believe gas was used? 

Because I read it in the past, in a reliable book.  I cannot remember the 
title.  I regarded the book as reliable because the sources I spot checked
were accurate, and because there was no typical sensationalism as in most
"Holocaust" books.  I am not saying that the book was gospel truth, though.

My point was simple.  No evidence has been provided to the world which 
proves that there existed anywhere in the Reich or in occupied territory 
a "gas chamber" which was used to kill either the crippled or insane, or 
Jews.  If these "gas chambers" are phantasmic, how could the T-4 program 
have been implemented by any means other than injections, respiratory equip-
ment, or shootings (the latter method of which we know did not occur; the
former means I do not question were used)?  The logical conclusion is that 
the methods that I believe were used were indeed the tools used to carry out 
the program.  If we cannot find these "gas chambers," or a reliable source
for their location,  then their use is beyond the realm of possibility.

>Moreover, you seem to admit you invented the "respiratory equipment" method 
>of gassing...

I have invented nothing in my posts.

>...and that you have no source to support your claim. 

No, Keren, I don't have a source, but that doesn't mean I invented it.

>This proves you are, very simply, a deplorable liar who invents things and 
>posts them as facts - am I wrong? 

Yes you are.

>Moreover, are there remains to this "respiratory equipment" you claim was 
>used? 

I don't know.  But some museum probably has examples.

>Moreover, why do you think it's possible that "respiratory equipment" was 
>used, and gas chambers were not? 

I never questioned the factuality of the euthanasia of the T-4 program.  But 
I do question the existence of gas chambers.  Where are these gas chambers?  
Certainly not at Auschwitz.  Please provide me with a source where I can 
see the design of these "gas chambers."

>I am asking you again.  Try to answer the question, it's not a very
>difficult one, even for you. 

I now consider the question answered, and it should not come up again.

-- HERMANN


From oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!umn.edu!msus1.msus.edu!TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU!HERMANN Mon Apr 18 16:53:04 PDT 1994
Article: 11027 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Facts that the cowardly "Big Liars" can't explain away
Message-ID: <1994Apr17.222220.9940@msus1.msus.edu>
From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Date: 17 Apr 94 22:22:15 -0500
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
References: <2okajo$r00@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
Nntp-Posting-Host: tigger.stcloud.msus.edu
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Danny Keren criticizes my post:

[footnotes for my post deleted]

>Once again, "hermann the revisionist" (who in the past said that
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>he would admire Hitler even if he killed 60 million Jews) demonstrates
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>that it is impossible to reason with him.

Get it straight.  What I wrote meant that the death of millions of Jews would 
be irrelevant to me, because the survival of Germany and the rest of the 
Aryan race took precedence to the survival of a group who helped perpetrate a 
new world war.

>It is quite incredible - is the man so stupid not to realize what
>he is doing, or is he hoping no one will notice?

The Big Lie in action.  The Holocaust Mythologists wish to make it seem that
they cannot understand what I have to say, and therefore, I must be a fool or
a lunatic.  

>"hermann" is quoting from "Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression" and the
>translations appearing in the Nurnberg trials. Of course, whenever
>a document from *exactly the same sources* is posted by those
>who argue with him, he immediately dismisses it as a forgery, or
>says that he is not sure the document is genuine, or whatever.

Keren understands my point clearly, but holding to the new strategy against
Net revisionists, he acts as though he doesn't know what I'm doing.

The point was simple.  Your side uses "documents" from these same sources
to "prove" your claims.  How do you explain away the extreme inconsistencies
between the "documents" which your side quotes from these same sources, and
those I quote?  IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO EXPLAIN AWAY THESE INCONSISTENCIES EXCEPT
BY ASSUMING ONE CLASS OF THESE DOCUMENTS WERE FORGED, OR DOCTORED.  Once
this is accepted, we can move from that point.

And how do you explain the other material I cited?

>How can one argue with someone who chooses only the documents that
>he likes, and rejects other documents from exactly the same source
>as forgeries? 

Indeed.  So Danny, explain how the material I quoted can be totally contra-
dictory to what you claim the Germans were doing.  Which documents are 
inaccurate?  Which should be discarded?  Why does your side ignore such 
documents as I have presented, unless you realize they destroy utterly 
your Holocaust story?

-- HERMANN


From oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!utcsri!utnut!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk Fri Apr 22 07:19:35 PDT 1994
Article: 11178 of alt.revisionism
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Hermann's" Questions re Nazi Documents
Date: 21 Apr 1994 11:57:51 GMT
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Lines: 64
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2p5pnv$6i5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

This important document touches some major facets of the Nazi
extermination policy:

1) The plan to keep alive the Jews fit for work while killing the
   "unfit" is clearly specified. Thus, there is no contradiction
   between the fact that the Jews fit for work were sometimes kept
   alive, and the fact that the other were exterminated. Those fit
   for work were to be killed later. They formed much less than
   half of those sent to the camps.

2) As in many other documents, the true meaning of the word "evacuation"
   is evident - it means killing, and, in this case, killing by gas.

(1 and 2 should answer, very clearly, the questions posed by "hermann").

3) As a side note, the document once again mentions the fact that
   the Jews kept alive must be separated by sex; obviously, to prevent
   reproduction. This is repeated in many other documents, as well
   as plans and experiments for mass sterilization. 



Letter from Dr. Erhard Wetzel to Reichskommissar Lohse, October 25, 1941
[Hitler and the Final Solution - G. Fleming, University of California
Press, 1984, p. 70]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
With regard to my letter of 18 October 1941, please be informed that
Oberdiensleiter [Chief Executive Officer] Brack from the Fuehrer's
Chancellory has stated his readiness to assist in the construction of
the necessary accommodations and gassing apparatuses, so they must
first be constructed. Brack's view is that, since construction of the
apparatuses within the Reich would present far greater difficulties
than on-site production, the most expedient course of action is to
send his people directly to Riga, in particular his chemist Dr.
Kallmeyer, who will take the necessary steps from there.
Oberdiensleiter Brack further points out that the procedure in
question is not without its hazards, and that therefore special safety
precautions are needed. Under these circumstances, I ask you to
contact Oberdiensleiter Brack in the Fuehrer's Chancellory through
your higher SS and Police leader. Please request from him the
dispatching of the chemist Dr. Kallmeyer and any further assistants
that are needed. I might further point out that Sturmbannfuehrer
Eichmann, the adviser on Jewish affairs in the Reich main security
office, is in complete accord with this procedure. According to the
information received here from Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, camps for
Jews will be set up in Riga and Minsk, where Jews from the Altreich
[Germany proper] might also be sent. Jews are currently being
evacuated from the Altreich to Lodz and other camps, from which those
fit for work will be transferred to work forces in the east. Given the
present situation, Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated
without qualms through use of the Brack device. Incidents such as
those that took place during the shootings of Jews in Vilna, according
to a report I have on my desk, can hardly be sanctioned, keeping in
mind that the executions were undertaken openly, and the new
procedures assure that such incidents will no longer be possible. Jews
fit for work, on the other hand, will be transported to work forces in
the east. That the men and women in this latter group must be kept
apart from each other goes without saying. Please keep me informed as
to any further measures you take.




-Danny Keren.


From oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!emory!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!msus1.msus.edu!TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU!HERMANN Fri Apr 22 07:19:36 PDT 1994
Article: 11187 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A Reply to Danny Keren #1
Message-ID: <1994Apr20.220800.10061@msus1.msus.edu>
From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Date: 20 Apr 94 22:07:59 -0500
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
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Danny Keren respond to my post:

># Because I read it in the past, in a reliable book.  I cannot remember 
># the title.  

>This doesn't count.

Not for you.

># I regarded the book as reliable because the sources I spot checked
># were accurate, 

>How do you know?

I don't.  But it was reasonable to believe so.

># and because there was no typical sensationalism as in most
># "Holocaust" books.  

>Huh? A reference to gassing by method A is "accurate", and a
>reference to gassing by method B is "typical sensationalism"?

Most "historical" texts on the Holocau$t read like novels or editorials,
not critical analyses.  The one I read was closer to the latter.

>A great deal of evidence has been presented. 

Where?  When?  Why don't you post a short, concise article which
proves your basic allegations.

>You choose not to accept it.  

I will accept any factual evidence which you provide. 

>Since you are, obviously, a die-hard Hitler admirer, Nazi, and 
>racist (facts which you are proud of) most people will
>suspect your judgement is objective.

I accept that.  I don't expect anyone to perceive me as objective.
But what I want to encourage people to do is be objective themselves
towards the Holocau$t Myth and other real and imagined events.

# I don't know.  But some museum probably has examples.

>This doesn't count.  

Fine.  It doesn't count.

>You are rejecting real evidence...

What evidence?  Perhaps "evidence" like the fake "human soap"
presented at Nuernberg, and pictured in many Holocaus$t books
as genuine?

>But the people who ran the T4 program testified at great length
>about the gas chambers.  How can you choose to select only some
>parts of their testimony? 

The accused who hopes to be spared the noose has a tendency to
say what he/she thinks the persecutor -- oops, prosecution --
wants to hear as part of a plea bargain.

I judge what is credible and what is not, just like you or any-
one else.  I do not see the alleged testimony as being consistent
with other facts.

>What doesn't make sense about gas chambers (if you agree gas was 
>indeed used)? 

Tell me where the gas chamber was, and offer citations to verify
that your source was correct.  If you can do this, and prove to
me the existence of the gas chamber(s), I'll admit you're right and
I'm wrong.

>The T4 program didn't take place at Auschwitz. 

That's right.  So *where are* the gas chambers?

-- HERMANN


From oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!emory!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!msus1.msus.edu!TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU!HERMANN Fri Apr 22 07:19:37 PDT 1994
Article: 11188 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A Reply to Danny Keren #2
Message-ID: <1994Apr20.220826.10062@msus1.msus.edu>
From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Date: 20 Apr 94 22:08:26 -0500
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
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Danny Keren comments:

>The Jews didn't help perpetrate a new world war. This is Nazi
>propaganda which has no foundation in reality. The Jews didn't 
>make Hitler invade Poland, Belgium, France, etc. etc. etc. The
>Jews didn't make Japan attack the US. The Jews didn't make Germany
>declare was on the US. 

World Jewry *did* organize an economic boycott against Germany.  The
Jewish influence in the British and American governments *did* 
encourage and/or direct acts of war against the Reich.

The war against Poland (a war due to the obstinacy of the Polish
government to work with Germany, whose territory had been stolen
in WW I) was blown out of proportion by Britain and France, with 
American agitation.  Chamberlain (who said that Jewry pushed him 
into war) declared on Germany first.

France and Britain prepared to invade Germany and strategic adjacent
territory, and Germany preempted this by invading Belgium and Norway
(Churchill, friend and tool of the Jews, planned to invade Norway
first, but the Wehrmacht beat him to it).

Jewish-Bolshevik Russia (no, Stalin wasn't a Jew, but he was imbued 
with Jewish Marxism, and had great Jewish influence in his government,
contrary to the "anti-Semitism" myth) prepared to attack Germany, even
though the Reich had signed a pact with them, and Germany responded
in the only logical way.

>No. The documents you posted don't contradict the fact that a
>massive genocide took place. The fact that Himmler wanted to keep
>alive those who were selected as forced labor doesn't mean that
>there was no genocide. There are other documents which mention this
>point (kill the unfit but keep the fit for work) very clearly.

The document cited states clearly that evacuation of the Jews to
the east was Hitler's policy.  This contradicts the "documents" 
you cite which purport to prove a policy of genocide.  Why?  

>And, *even* if you think these documents are contradictory to the
>genocide that took place, how do you know which of the documents
>is forged? Maybe these documents were forged by the Nazis (Himmler)
>themselves, in order to protect themselves from punishment after the
>war was lost (a punishment they knew very well was coming)? Why do
>you rule out that option?

Are you proposing that Himmler was some sort of seer who could see
into the future?  Forge documents, yet fail to destroy the damaging
ones?  Danny, please get back on your rocker.

>If the Allies were trying to "frame" the Nazis, why didn't they
>destroy the documents you are posting? 

Carelessness?  Even the best Fraud makes mistakes, and forgets
to erase completely the trail which leads to his crime.  And 
since the Allies were judge, jury, and executioner, they didn't 
have to worry too much about a few "problem" documents slipping 
through -- the verdict was predetermined.

>But all this is really moot, as, again, the documents obviously
>do not "prove" there was not a genocide going on, while numerous
>other documents from *exactly* the same sources *do prove* that a
>genocide was going on. 

You and I must have a different defintion of "prove".  You are
doing exactly what you claim I do -- dismissing documents 
because it doesn't fit your story.  Why do your documents 
"prove" something, but my don't prove anything?  They are
from the same source, so according to your previous state-
ments, they should have equal weight evidentially.

>Not to mention the testimony of those who were in the camps, which, 
>of course, supports the fact that a genocide took place...

Why does Yehuda Bauer say that only *one* person witnessed
"gassings"?  

These other "witnesses" can only testify to the existence of 
concentration camps, and hardship due to war, not to some 
supposed "extermination policy."

>...and, of course, the same holds for population statistics.

Where are these statistics?  Please post them.  And don't quote
from some post-war book.  Facts -- not opinion, not "estimates";
cite the original census documents from before the war, and 
after the war.

-- HERMANN


From oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!emory!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!msus1.msus.edu!TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU!HERMANN Fri Apr 22 07:19:38 PDT 1994
Article: 11189 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!emory!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!msus1.msus.edu!TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU!HERMANN
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A Reply to Michael Stein
Message-ID: <1994Apr20.220854.10063@msus1.msus.edu>
From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Date: 20 Apr 94 22:08:54 -0500
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
Nntp-Posting-Host: tigger.stcloud.msus.edu
Lines: 87

Michael Stein writes:

>   You're *sure* these are genuine?  *Absolutely sure?*  Great!  Because 
>on close reading you've got a little problem.  But let me "explain away" 
>something first....

Beyond a reasonable doubt.

[commentary on my citation of a document from the Camp Administration of
 the SS deleted]

I will not argue this issue because we will get nowhere.

Let's move on to the other document.

>    Now let's get to that little problem I mentioned.

>>      "_In his letter of 24 June 1940...SS Major General Heydrich 
>>   informed the Reich Foreign Minister that the whole problem of the 
>>   approximately three and a quarter million Jews in the areas under
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>>   German control can no longer be solved by emigration -- a terri-
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                            ++++++++++
>>   torial final solution (territorial Endloesung) would be necessary_."

>>      "_In recognition of this Reich Marshal Goering on 31 July 1941 
>>   commissioned SS Major General Heydrich to make, in conjunction with 
>>   the interested German Control agencies, all necessary preparations 
>>   for a total solution (Gesamtloesung) of the Jewish problem in the 
>>   German sphere of influence in Europe_...In the conference General
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>>   Heydrich explained that Reich Marshal Goering's assignment to him 
>>   had been made on the Fuehrer's instruction _and that the Fuehrer 
>>   instead of emigration had now authorized the evacuation of the Jews 
                ++++++++++                        ++++++++++
>>   to the East as the solution_..."  [15]
     ^^^^^^^^^^^

>>      "_The intended deportations are a further step forward on the 
                       ++++++++++++
>>   way of the total solution...The deportation to the Government 
>>   General is a temporary measure.  The Jews will be moved on fur-
>>   ther to the Occupied Eastern Territories as soon as the technical 
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>   conditions for it are given_."  [16]

>    There are a couple of lines of contradiction here.  What is the 
>difference of meaning between "emigration" and "evacuation/deportation?"  
>Surely you don't suggest Hitler though the Jews would all leave 
>voluntarily? 

Yes I would.  Now we get into the "Nazi code-word" myth once again. 

The Jews couldn't (wouldn't, if they could) leave, so the National 
Socialist German government decided to forcibly move them to re-
loction/concentration camps in the Generalgouvernement and Wartheland,
and planned to move further to the Ostland (near where most of their
ancestors originally came from) when it was possible to do so, which
never occurred because of the failure to destroy the Bolshevik state.

This is not a difficult concept, unless one wishes to make these plans
out to be something they're not.  Even an historian from the Holocaust
Mythologists' side, Arno J. Mayer, acknowledges that this type of 
language was not implying extermination, so why don't you accept this
position?  (see note #8 in my original post)

>>To this day, thousands of G.I.s would swear that they witnessed deliberate
>>and calculated murder of inmates at the concentration camps they captured,
>>despite Simon Wiesenthal's admission that "there were no extermination
>>camps on German soil."  Are they lying?  Or merely misinterpreting what
>>they saw [...]

>    Or are *you* misinterpreting something?  What country's soil was 
>Auschwitz on?  Hint: P_l_nd.  (Do you want to buy a vowel?)  Extra credit 
>for knowing the correct location of Majdanek and Treblinka.

G.I.s never reached Auschwitz.  They spoke about Dachau, Sachsenhausem,
Bergen-Belsen, etc. -- camps in Germany.  They will claim they saw a policy
of genocide even thought we both know there were no gas chambers in the
Altreich.  These G.I.s are an excellent example of how a myth is perpe-
trated.  A rumor starts, people pass it along, soon the rumor is completely
blown out of proportion, and usually it becomes popular myth seen as fact.
In the case of the Holocau$t, Jewry seized upon popular myth, and concocted
a tale of genocide for their own purposes.

-- HERMANN



From oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!misvms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman Fri Apr 22 09:30:27 PDT 1994
Article: 11221 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!misvms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Hermann's" Questions re Nazi Documents
Date: 21 Apr 1994 08:37 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <21APR199408372047@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <2p5pnv$6i5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: misvms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <2p5pnv$6i5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes...
>2) As in many other documents, the true meaning of the word "evacuation"
>   is evident - it means killing, and, in this case, killing by gas.

    Actually, the passage you included goes much farther than that.  I have
    included the relevent passages below which [1] show that the gassing
    apparatus was built with knowlege and help from Hitler's Chancellory,
    and [2] that this gassing apparatus was to be used for the
    "elimination" of Jews not fit for work.  Elimination is certainly less
    ambiguous that "evacuation."  I can't even imagine what else one might
    hypothesize it means in this passage other than "kill."

    In this letter we have a clear statement of intent to kill by gassing
    and we have a clear link of knowledge and cooperation back to Berlin.

    Mr. Raven, Mr. Vicksell, Mr. Kleim do you have any comments?

>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"With regard to my letter of 18 October 1941, please be informed that
>Oberdiensleiter [Chief Executive Officer] Brack from the Fuehrer's
>Chancellory has stated his readiness to assist in the construction of
>the necessary accommodations and gassing apparatuses...
>...Given the
>present situation, Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated
>without qualms through use of the Brack device...."

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


From oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!umn.edu!msus1.msus.edu!TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU!HERMANN Fri Apr 22 17:20:06 PDT 1994
Article: 11235 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!umn.edu!msus1.msus.edu!TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU!HERMANN
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Hollow-caust: Without Foundation in Fact
Message-ID: <1994Apr21.091540.10077@msus1.msus.edu>
From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Date: 21 Apr 94 09:15:39 -0500
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
Nntp-Posting-Host: tigger.stcloud.msus.edu
Lines: 107

Ken Mcvay writes:

>Given Miltie's failure to provide evidence that the Holocaust is a "myth"...

Here is McVay's manipulation of logic.  He implies that I must prove the non-
existence of something, a ridiculous assertion.  This is a common tactic of
the Holocau$t Mythologists.

An analogous situation to this would be for a Christian to demand that his
assumption of fact (i.e. "faith") -- the divinity of Christ -- be *proven*
false.  Since one can obviously not *prove* that Jesus Christ was not God,
the Christian fanatic would gleefully claim *the doubter* is wrong.

McVay and his comrades must prove the existence of a systematic extermination
policy against the Jews; we revisionists don't have to prove the lack of 
such a policy.

>The denial technique in action again. On the one hand, because there were no
>extermination camps in Germany proper (although there were certainly
>organized gassings, about which deniers love to split hairs), they find it
>cute to point out that no "homicidal camps" existed in Germany. 

Of course Mr. McVay would hope that the reader falls for this line that 
Wiesenthal *really* didn't *mean* what he said, that there was no extermi-
nation of Jews on German soil.  Mr. McVay wants YOU to believe that "organi-
zed gassings" and "extermination camps" are not one and the same.  This is
manipulation of plain language common for a religious fanatic.

I pointed out that professional "survivor" and "Holocaust expert" Simon 
Wiesenthal declared that there were no "extermination camps" in Germany
while professional "survivor" and "Holocaust expert" Elie Wiesel claims
there *was* an "extermination camp" in Germany (10,000 allegedly killed 
a day at Buchenwald).  

The "technique" here is the use of common sense.

>The folks most vulnerable to this sort of crap are those without a knowledge 
>of the era... 

The folks most vulnerable to the Holocau$t crap are those who are trusting,
those who easily fall victim to the "Big Lie," which is what the Holocau$t
is.

>>>To this day, thousands of G.I.s would swear that they witnessed deliberate
>>>and calculated murder of inmates at the concentration camps they captured,
>>>despite Simon Wiesenthal's admission that "there were no extermination
>>>camps on German soil."  Are they lying?  Or merely misinterpreting what
>>>they saw [...]

>I rest my case.. note what Miltie does here.. first, he notes that troops
>claim to have seen certain things.. he does _not_, of course, make any
>distinction about _where_ they claim to have seen these things. 

Since "G.I.s" nearly always refers to *American* troops, the implication is
that it occurred in the American occupation zone, at a camp such as Dachau.

>_Then_, and only then, does he toss in the "not on German soil" approach, 
>and asks "Are they lying?" 

Any reasonable and objective person can understand what my point was -- that
if no "extermination camps" were in Germany (admitted by High Priest of
the Holocau$t Simon Wiesenthal), the widely-known and -heard claims of G.I.s
who swear they "saw the Holocaust" at Dachau, etc. were foolish misinter-
pretations of unfortunate ramifications of war as the effects of a genocidal
policy.

>Lipstadt was right when she asserted that it was pointless to argue about
>such things, and concentrate upon the _technique_ instead - something which
>you clearly understand, given the points you have raised.

The only "technique" readers of this group need remember is that of the 
Holocau$t Mythologists, who insist that one must *prove* the non-existence
of a genocidal policy, which they know is impossible, as one cannot *prove*
the non-existence of anything.

With the Holocau$t, we are dealing not with history but with religion.  There-
fore, Holocau$t fanatics, from prominent ones like Deborah Lipstadt to lesser
ones like Ken McVay and Danny Keren, cannot be reasoned with.  Facts (or 
more appropriately, the lack of them) mean nothing to them, just rules of 
evidence and the principle of innocence until guilt is proven means nothing
to them; the Holocau$t is revealed truth, with the "gas chambers," the "ovens,"
and the "martyrs" being "Truth" of a mystical formula being accepted on 
faith.

As with many religions, the Holocau$t Myth has a demon, personified by Adolf
Hitler, and all who dare to critically analyze the "Truth" of the Holocau$t
Myth are portrayed as pawns of this "Demon."  Realizing the fragility of
their Myth, often True Believers of the Holocau$t Myth will try to shift 
the emphasis of criticism from their Myth (the valid analysis), to the 
doubter with this diversionary tactic, attempting to impugn his or her
credibility and/or humanity to neutralize their effectiveness in pointing out 
the lack of substance behind the Holocau$t facade.

Good people around the world must continue to blaspheme this unholy hoax until
public scrutiny of its fantastic claims becomes the norm rather than the 
exception.

>...see Kleim's comment about the total number of Jews living "under German 
>control," which conveniently ignores the reality of...pre/postwar census 
>information.)

Please post this "census" information.  Post facts from census documents 
compiled before and after the war.  Don't post BS from some post-war Holo-
cau$t book; no "quotations," no opinions, no "estimates," just plain,
objective numbers.

-- HERMANN


From oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!umn.edu!msus1.msus.edu!TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU!HERMANN Fri Apr 22 17:20:16 PDT 1994
Article: 11241 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!umn.edu!msus1.msus.edu!TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU!HERMANN
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: RE: Slave Labour vs. Extermination: Milton's Conflict
Message-ID: <1994Apr21.111815.10078@msus1.msus.edu>
From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Date: 21 Apr 94 11:18:14 -0500
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
Nntp-Posting-Host: tigger.stcloud.msus.edu
Lines: 58

Daniel Mittleman writes:

>       To this day, thousands of G.I.s would swear that they witnessed
>       deliberate and calculated murder of inmates at the concentration
>       camps they captured, despite Simon Wiesenthal's admission that
>       "there were no extermination camps on German soil."  Are they
>       lying?  Or merely misinterpreting what they saw [...]

>    surely you already knew that the concentration camps were on Polish
>    soil not German soil.  It has been posted here several times already.

If you would have paid attention to my post, you would have noted that
I quoted professional "survivor" Elie Wiesel claiming there *were* exter-
minations in Germany.  I am well aware of the fact that most Holocau$t 
Mythologists assert that the "extermination camps" were outside of Reich
borders, WHICH IS WHY I USED THE QUOTE.

>    So I ask, why do you find it necessary to intentionally mislead and
>    obfuscate in order to make your points?  

Nothing I will say will be acceptable to you as an answer unless I accept
your *beliefs*.  Therefore, why should I bother replying to you?  Don't
accuse me of intentionally misleading anyone -- I haven't -- while you 
slander Germany by claiming that the German government murdered six 
million Jews without valid evidence.

>    Don't your points work if you are straightforward and honest in your 
>    presentation?  

I have tried to be straightforward and I have *always* been honest in my
posts.  My points work for objective people, not Holocau$t Mythologists.

>    Or at the very least, can't you see that this obfuscation is a large
>    part of why people (especially historians) do not take you or your
>    arguments very seriously?  Can't you see that this is why people
>    think you are dumb in spite of the fact you told us you have a very
>    high IQ?

People reject revisionist arguments not because there is something funda-
mentally wrong with the arguments, but rather because revisionists question
a social Myth that is accepted as fact by most people.  The "right thinking"
people have always thought anyone who questions "established fact" as 
"ignorant," "evil," or otherwise abnormal.  Galileo is an example.  Public
opinion of myself is of no concern; if it was, I would not criticize the
Holocau$t, I would not be a National Socialist and Pan-Aryan racist, and
I certainly wouldn't proclaim such beliefs publicly.

-- HERMANN

--------------------------------------
"People say that we're insane,
 They say that we ain't got no class,
 Well they can't take the culture lies 
 and stick 'em up their ass."

                    -- Bound For Glory
                       "Over the Top"
--------------------------------------


From oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!umn.edu!msus1.msus.edu!TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU!HERMANN Fri Apr 22 17:20:17 PDT 1994
Article: 11242 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No "legally-elected government of Adolf..." existed.
Message-ID: <1994Apr21.112334.10079@msus1.msus.edu>
From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Date: 21 Apr 94 11:23:33 -0500
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
References: <1994Apr13.141716.9801@msus1.msus.edu> <2ok3q2$rg7@info.census.gov> 
 <1994Apr17.223330.9941@msus1.msus.edu>,<1994Apr20.072015.26749@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
Nntp-Posting-Host: tigger.stcloud.msus.edu
Lines: 29

Ken Mcvay writes:

>>I deny the existence of a systematic policy of extermination against Jews,
>>Gypsies, and other non-Whites by the legally-elected government of Adolf
>>Hitler.  There is no evidence for such a systematic policy, nor for "gas
>>chambers."

>10-0, 10-0, 10-0. Kleim defaults the round.

I do not have to prove the non-existence of such an extermination policy,
as the non-existence of anything cannot be *proven*; rather your side must 
*prove* your allegations that such a policy did indeed exist.

>There is no evidence, Mr. Kleim, of a "legally-elected government of Adolf
>Hitler," so it's impossible to comment, and your response is quite
>meaningless. 

Fine.  Let's say Hitler *was* a dictator operating against the will of the
German people.  There's still no "gas chambers" and no extermination policy.

>The question, of course, remains unanswered, but perhaps if it is restated,
>Mr. Kleim will enlighten us:

>Mr. Kleim, do you believe that the Nazi regime employed a systematic program
>of extermination? (A simple "yes" or "no" will do)

NO.

-- HERMANN


From oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!news.intercon.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.ans.net!paperboy.amoco.com!hawkings!apctrc!msc.edu!news.gac.edu!msus1.msus.edu!TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU!HERMANN Sat Apr 23 16:37:10 PDT 1994
Article: 11365 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Point
Message-ID: <1994Apr22.093359.10105@msus1.msus.edu>
From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Date: 22 Apr 94 09:33:58 -0500
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
References: <3426.UUL1.3#25274@ace.com>
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
Nntp-Posting-Host: tigger.stcloud.msus.edu
Lines: 50

CyberKnight comments on "Native American" anti-White propaganda:

>M{>{kayoshk@unm.edu}
>M{>How about the numbers in the holocost here in the good ol' U.S.? Here's
>M{>some numbers of people slaughtered by the U.S. government, and the numbers
>M{>are still rising today (from 1860 to present):

>M{>		NORTH AMERICAN INDIAN NATIONS SLAUGHTERED

>M{>BIOLOGICAL WARFARE (U.S. ARMY): 5 MILLION
>M{>MURDER UNDER ALL AGENCIES:	2 MILLION
>M{>DELIBERATE STARVATION:		2 MILLION
>M{>DELIBERATE RADIATION POISONING:	1 MILLION
>M{>ENVIRONMENTAL DISASTERS		1 MILLION
>M{>DISLOCATION FROM ENVIRONMENT:	.5 MILLION
>M{>TORTURE				1.5 MILLION
>M{>NUMBER OF NATIONS EXTINCT	1700 (OUT OF ORIGINAL 4000)

*ESTIMATES*, *NOT FACTS, for another (fake) "Holocaust."

Undoubtedly many hundreds of thousands of pre-Columbians died during the
conquest of this continent by the Aryan race, directly by warfare, and 
indirectly by disease, but just like with "The" Holocaust, this alleged 
genocide has no factual leg to stand on regarding the "deliberateness" of
the deaths or the casuality claims.

Both "Holocausts" are propaganda to instill guilt in the scapegoat responsi-
ble for all evil in history, the Aryan race.  But as for me, I have neither 
nor remorse for either the Jews who died during World War II or the pre-
Columbians who died during the conquest and construction of the United States 
and Canada -- I am not responsible for their deaths, and I have too many 
millions of Aryan victims of Jewish Communism  and Jewish Capitalism to be 
remorseful about.

>Just an aside:  Not too many people know about the biological warfare
>aspects of the Native American Holocaust...

Would you mind telling us about the evidence which establishes the factuality
of this claim?

>...nor how deliberate it was.

How do you know the deaths of these pre-Columbians were deliberately inflicted
by the White Man?  Is it because the White Man is the Politically-correct 
all-around responsible-for-eveything "Devil?"

-- HERMANN

-- No Guilt -- No Remorse --
-- White Pride -- White Power! --


From oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!news.unb.ca!io!b28d Sun Apr 24 16:11:26 PDT 1994
Article: 11386 of alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!news.unb.ca!io!b28d
From: (Keith Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hermann has a
Date: 24 Apr 1994 01:53:59 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2pcjfn$4bt@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References: <1994Apr22.093359.10105@msus1.msus.edu>
Reply-To: t08o@unb.ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: io.sun.csd.unb.ca


In article 10105@msus1.msus.edu, hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU () writes:
> 
> Both "Holocausts" are propaganda to instill guilt in the scapegoat responsi-
> ble for all evil in history, the Aryan race.  

Oh really, bonehead?  I don't recall any mention of the word "Aryan" or any
implication of the word in a great many acts in history that could be 
considered "evil" by someone or another.  The sacking of Troy or Carthage,
for example.  The barbarity of the Crusades (on both sides), or the burning
of Jeanne d'Arc.  Henry VIII and the fate of his wives.  The death of uncounted
millions in the former Soviet Union.  The My Lai massacre. Katyn.  The
Inquisition.

No you ignorant little worm, nobody blames "Aryans" (assuming anyone of that 
name exist) for all the worlds evil except in that sick and perverted rotting
mass of ganglia you call your brain. 

I descend into the realm of insult because that seems to be the only type of
language that gets past your outer ear.  I'd much rather indulge in intelligent
debate, but as that seems to be beyond your rather limited reasoning abilities,
I believe I have to do this to get your attention and to keep it.  My vicious
streak comes out at times like this, and I believe all all vicious streaks
need to get a little exercise, so keep on postings the garbage, Flame-bait.



Keith Morrison  

******************************************************************
| t08o@unb.ca  |  No one could mistake my views for those of the |
|              |  University of New Brunswick.  UNB has no views |
|              |  on anything.  Ever.                            |
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