Article 20895 of alt.revisionism:
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From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Milton John Kleim, Jr.)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Dumas, get your facts straight
Date: 3 Jan 1995 18:05:14 GMT
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <3ec3kq$1qm@urvile.MSUS.EDU>
References:        
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: tigger.stcloud.msus.edu

Steve Dumas responds to Les Griswold:

>Also, why is it that shortly after your wife sent me that infamous e-mail 
>Kleim sent me the e-mail which he titled "One Question," and which asked "Mr. 
>Dumas, what do you know about CSIS?" Where on earth did Kleim get the idea of 
>me being connected with CSIS?  

From my own thoughts.  I'm happy to know that you, like Keren and Mcvay, 
think I'm stupid.  Birds of a feather flock together?????

>Are you suggesting neither you and your wife did not plant this idea in his 
>head?  If not, who did? 

I "planted" them in my own head.  I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and
composed the question the way I did with a dual purpose.  

>When I got the e-mail from Kleim my first thought was how many other people 
>are being told this blatant lie? 

Paranoid?

>Secondly, there are no rumors of this kind kicking around Ottawa, or Carleton.
>It started with your wife.

May I kindly suggest you contact a psychiatrist immediately?  

>In conclusion, let this be the last of this nonsense about "agents." The only 
>reason I raised the issue in this newsgroup was because I had not idea to whom
>else you or your wife were spreading this lie. You obviously told Kleim and 
>god knows who else. 

"This lie" was not "obviously" spread to me.

>This is a typical "far right" tactic of discrediting someone who has fallen 
>out of favour for whatever reason.

Your tactics, conspiring behind another's back, are those of Kosher
Konservatives.  Had you the courage to write to Les and Sylvie in the first
place, NONE of this matter would be going on.

>Les, we both have much better things to do with our time. Let's just call a 
>truce. It is most unfortunate that we entered into this utter stupidity. 
>However, what's done is done. Let it be the last time. 

Truce accepted.  



Article 20900 of alt.revisionism:
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From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Milton John Kleim, Jr.)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Right Discourses: Dumas vs. Griswold
Date: 3 Jan 1995 17:57:09 GMT
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
Lines: 124
Message-ID: <3ec35l$1qm@urvile.MSUS.EDU>
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Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: tigger.stcloud.msus.edu

Steve Dumas writes:

>First of all, you are the one who started this whole mess by sending Les and 
>Sylvie the e-mail I sent to you. 

Would you like me to post the message that "started this whole mess?"

>My understanding of e-mail is that it is supposed to be private! 

When someone talks evil behind someone's back, the privilege of privacy is
lost.  You wanted me to conspire with you to cause Les and Sylvie trouble, and
I refused and informed them of your intentions.

>I subsequently sent you an e-mail asking why on earth you would send them the 
>e-mail I sent you? Your response?  "Steve, what do you know about CSIS?" 

>What the hell was I supposed to make of that!!!!

Because you have a guilty conscience, you ASSUMED I was implying you are an
agent.  Instead of asking why I asked it, you accused me of accusing you of
being "an agent."  

>> Never did I send you a message suggesting you are "an agent?"  Do you have a
>> guilty conscience?  All my last message said was "what do you know about the
>> Canadian Security Intelligence Service?"

>What on earth was the implication of that question? 

To hint about what I was so upset about.  CSIS is watching my comrades in 
Canada, and I concern myself with their safety. 

Your response to my question indicates that either you ARE an agent (with a
guilty conscience), or you are too stupid to realize the danger of the Iron
Heel apparatus in (what Michael Hoffman calls) "Canadistan."

>In the e-mail I asked you what you thought of their postings and what you 
>thought Dr. Pierce would think. Granted I did also ask for e-mail contact with
>the National Alliance but would not have asked them this question. I also 
>asked you what you thought other people think of their postings. The REASON, 
>repeate REASON, I asked was because I was reading racial slurs which I did
>not think were appropriate for the internet. I was CONCERNED about about the 
>tone of the debates given the language and also the material which was being 
>directed towards the Griswold's. Evidently, they have also received death 
>threats. 

If you were "concerned" with the content, why not ask them to tone down what
they said instead of asking me (and Ron Copley) about them?

And if you were "concerned" with their safety, why not warn them, and me,
about what was going on?

>My POINT, repeat POINT, was that kind of exchanges I was reading in alt.skin-
>heads were probably not accomplishing anything. It was not just a matter of 
>weak ideas, or poor debating, it was a matter of people reading some of the 
>most disgusting filth available on the internet. 

It's a matter of opinion to be taken up with the AUTHORS.

>Those of you who have not read the stuff should really take a look. The people
>Les Griswold and his wife are debating talk about raping his wife and child, 
>and various other things which are just too sickening to mention. Les and
>his wife DO NOT BELONG IN THIS KIND OF INTELLECTUAL GUTTER!  They are too good
>for this kind of thing. 

Stop this feigned admiration.  If you respected Les and Sylvie so much, you
would never in a millenium even THOUGHT of what you did (asking me to help you
stop them from posting what you thought "inappropriate").

>MY INTENTION WAS NOT TO BRING THEM ANY HARM BUT JUST TO GET A FEEL OF WHAT 
>OTHERS SUCH AS YOURSELF WERE THINKING ABOUT THE SITUATION!!!

IF this is true, then you really botched your efforts.

Had you asked, "Milton, what do you think of Les and Sylvie's posts?  Do you
think they're inappropriate?" AND LEFT IT AT THAT, without the inquiry about
the NA and Dr. Pierce, I might have told you what I thought, and dropped the
matter.

>> What "vicious" e-mail?  Mine?  Sylvie's?  Why don't you post this alleged
>> "vicious" e-mail?

>I will not post Sylvie's e-mail. You see John, I am not like you. I would 
>never send someone's e-mail to someone else like you did mine to Les and 
>Sylvie. If you found my questions disturbing you should have just sent me an 
>e-mail and said you did not want to discuss the issue, or that I was out of 
>line. You NEVER should have sent them that e-mail. That is what started this
>whole mess. 

No, Steve, you were out of line.  YOU started this matter.  You suggested 
conspiracy against comrades.  You tried to cause unnecessary trouble.

>> Perhaps Jeffrey Brown likes you, Steve -- for good reason?

>I am really getting sick and tired of having to respond to suggestions that I 
>am an agent, either from you, the Griswold's, or anyone else. 

AWW!  That's too bad.  If it's not true, don't pay our "accusations" any 
attention.

And let me make something very clear.  *I*, not Les and Sylvie, thought about
CSIS and the possible connection of you to it.  They did not "plant" ideas in
my head.

>> Then why did you start trouble?  And lie about what your intentions were when
>> I called you on them?

>First of all, YOU are the one who started the trouble by sending them my e-
>mail to YOU. Secondly, I still do not understand where you get this notion 
>that I somehow had "sinister" intentions towards them! 

Again, shall I post the message?

>If you took my concerns in this way then I sincerely apologize.  You SHOULD 
>HAVE taken the matter up with me, not sent them the e-mail I sent you. If 
>anything, that is what caused the "dissention." 

If no sinister intentions were held, then you should have apologized
immediately to the Griswolds for the offense taken, and dropped the matter.

>P.S. Had you not sent my e-mail to Sylvie, we could have
>had this out the way we should have - in private. 

Why do you post about this matter if you want it "private?"



Article 21018 of alt.revisionism:
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From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Milton John Kleim, Jr.)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Refuge of a Coward: call your opponent one first
Date: 5 Jan 1995 15:35:44 GMT
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <3eh3kg$8bh@urvile.MSUS.EDU>
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: tigger.stcloud.msus.edu

I see that yet again in their conceited idiocy the true cowards are making
claims I "run away" from this group when it serves my vanity.

Of course these juvenile assertions only prop up the megalomanical fantasies of
my detractors (they know who they are).  In their imaginary universe, my
illusory "defeats" justify their delusions that they themselves are valiant
"Net gladiators" whereas the reality that they are merely pompous Net jesters
is smothered by chimera.

Like Ken Mcvay and others of the Mythologist persuasion, I have a life off
of USENET with other more important things to do at certain times.  I post
and answer questions as time permits.  While Mcvay and I are (by his choice)
obviously enemies, I have certain respect for an opponent who uses his arsenal
wisely, maturely, and effectively.  I do not like a third-rate buffoon in naked
stupidity accuse him of "running away" if he is not present daily or does not
answer my questions.

Perhaps I should simply laugh at a situation where the mediocre and the in-
adequate can successfully derive tremendous ego-gratification from a newsgroup.
Petty stimulus for petty souls.  New lows of base entertainment for ever lower 
forms of consciousness.



Article 21043 of alt.revisionism:
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From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Milton John Kleim, Jr.)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: RE: The Refuge of a Coward: call your opponent one first
Date: 6 Jan 1995 05:51:26 GMT
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
Lines: 99
Message-ID: <3eilou$d1i@urvile.MSUS.EDU>
References: <3eh3kg$8bh@urvile.MSUS.EDU>,<05JAN95.18611794.0086@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: tigger.stcloud.msus.edu

Keith Morrison writes:

>Do you recall that little period when you claimed you were leaving the group? 
>Mainly, it appeared, because you were being constantly humiliated by being 
>proven wrong, among other things, something which I do not take any credit for.

I did leave the group, for as I said, an "indefinite period."  It may have
APPEARED to you that I "ran away," but if you want the truth, my absences were
do in large part to the massive research needed to assemble the _NS Primer_,
and other projects, including off-Net networking for the Movement.

>*I* have no illusions about my relative importance in the world.

And neither do I.  But nevertheless, because I have no qualms about saying
exactly what I believe (that National Socialism is the best solution to social
problems, the mythical nature of the Holocaust, etc., etc.), my opponents have
given me a much larger identity than I had before.  I don't mind it; I just use
my notoriety to advantage -- to help "secure the existence of our People and a
future for White children."

>Oh my, we are not going to start the "I have a life and you don't debate" 
>(actually non-debate) again, are we?  

It is a statement of fact that I have a life off of the Net.  You may assume 
whatever implications you wish.

>The reason I posted that little ditty was because of some question someone 
>asked (which I forget now) that you have not answered, a fairly common theme 
>on your part when that answer puts you, shall we say, in a bad light?

Primarily, time constrains my responses to questions.  Utility is of course
another factor -- why should I deny this?  There is no point to trying to 
answer the false premises of imbecility, which are the bases for many of the 
questions I am presented with.

>Now that that particular subject is out of the way, perhaps you could
>give me an internally consistent, rational and documented theory of
>what really happened in the period you claim the Holocaust did not
>happen?  

Since I do not have access to the archives of the world, nor the time and money
needed to survey the material even if I did have access, I cannot give you a
"documented" theory of the Jewish experience during WWII.

>Why don't you share with us what *you* think happened?  

My essays and short posts have repeatedly explained what I believe to have
happened regarding the Jews during WWII.

>You know, why Himmler said they were exterminating the Jewish Volk...

First, we disagree on what the speech contained.  Second, we disagree on the
purpose of what was said which we concur WAS said.  It is all a matter of 
interpretation.  If he did say "exterminate," I would take it as meaning 
the destruction of Jewry and not the _physical_ extermination of ALL Jews.
"Extermination" was used in a German publication I recently read, in reference
to the defeat of the Polish Army, and no one in their right mind alleges the
Germans "exterminated" (in the physical destruction sense) the Polish Army.

>...why the SS only blew up certain buildings when they left Auschwitz if those 
>buildings only had an innocent purpose...

And which building are those?  I don't suppose the ones which would prove your
thesis?  How convenient that the proof for your thesis is non-existent.

And whom do we have to believe that the SS destroyed the alleged "death
chambers?"  

>...why internal and contemporary memos and letters say the Nazis were actively
>executing thousands...

I have never claimed the Germans did not exterminate hundreds of thousands of
traitors, partisans, general troublemakers, and common criminals.

>...why about 11-12 million people dropped off the face of the Earth...

Where are the documents which prove these "millions" are missing?  Where did
the "six million" figure come from?  I assert they are inventions.

>...why thousands of people gave essentially the same story...

Rumors have a tendency to spread quickly.  And the dynamics of group psychology
indicate that such rumors become self-supporting among those who have experi-
enced a common psychological trauma.  Severe psychological distress fosters
the situation where individuals actually believe ridiculous falsehoods and
impossible occurences; it happens during such things as bank robberies and car 
crashes, and it happened during WWII.

>...including some of the perpetrators and why nobody has admitted to being a 
>part of the whole "holohoax".  

Do you also believe in the "lone nut" theory?  That's "established fact," too,
just as much as the Holocaust.

For the same reasons the perpetrators have not come forward with the facts
surrounding the neutralization of President Kennedy, OSS and British Intelli-
gence officers have never come forward with information about how they concoc-
ted the germinal rumors which became the Holocaust tales.



Article 21101 of alt.revisionism:
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From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Milton John Kleim, Jr.)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Northwest Neo-Nazis
Date: 6 Jan 1995 16:15:31 GMT
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <3ejqb3$gpl@urvile.MSUS.EDU>
References: <3ehvrl$jev@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: tigger.stcloud.msus.edu

Northbynw writes:

>Book Profiles Hate groups of NW
>Paul Shukovsky
>Seattle Post Intelligencer
>January 3, 1995

[deletions]

> Each profile contains a narrative outlining the ideology of the group,
>its history and capsules on its key leaders. Among the groups covered are:

> Church of Jesus Christ Christian Aryan Nations.
> National Socialist White People's Party.
> Populist Party of Washington State.
> Christian Patriot Association.
> White Aryan Resistance.

> The manual, which costs $17.50 plus $2 for postage and handling, can be
>ordered from the Coalition for Human Dignity, P.O. Box 40344, Portland, OR
>97240. (503) 281-5823.

What a ripoff!  You can get the complete, uncensored versions for FREE from
the organizations mentioned.

As is typical with "human rights" organizations, money is their first concern.



Article 12316 of alt.skinheads:
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From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Milton John Kleim, Jr.)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Northwest neo-Nazis
Date: 6 Jan 1995 16:20:16 GMT
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <3ejqk0$gpl@urvile.MSUS.EDU>
References: <3ehvc8$jcg@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: tigger.stcloud.msus.edu

Northbynw writes:
        
>Book Profiles Hate groups of NW
>Paul Shukovsky
>Seattle Post Intelligencer
>January 3, 1995

[deletions]

> Each profile contains a narrative outlining the ideology of the group,
>its history and capsules on its key leaders. Among the groups covered are:

> Church of Jesus Christ Christian Aryan Nations.
> National Socialist White People's Party.
> Populist Party of Washington State.
> Christian Patriot Association.
> White Aryan Resistance.

> The manual, which costs $17.50 plus $2 for postage and handling, can be
>ordered from the Coalition for Human Dignity, P.O. Box 40344, Portland, OR
>97240. (503) 281-5823.

What a ripoff!  You can get the complete, uncensored versions for FREE from
the organizations menetioned.

As is typical with "human rights" organizations, money is their first concern.  



Article 12338 of alt.skinheads:
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From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Milton John Kleim, Jr.)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Mak D. Asshole
Date: 6 Jan 1995 22:39:11 GMT
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <3ekgqf$j3m@urvile.MSUS.EDU>
References:  <3eeuqb$iv5@linux.cpsc.ucalgary.ca> <3e7si3$r9f@linux.cpsc.ucalgary.ca>     ,
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: tigger.stcloud.msus.edu

Jenn Starkman writes:

>A 3rd generation Canadian of *white* Eastern European descent (the
>name is German for "strongman")--oh yeah, and I'm Jewish too.

Sorry, Jenn, but you're either White OR Jewish.



Article 21194 of alt.revisionism:
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From: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Milton John Kleim, Jr.)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Refuge of a Coward: call your opponent one first
Date: 7 Jan 1995 20:57:22 GMT
Organization: ST. CLOUD STATE UNIVERSITY, ST. CLOUD, MN
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <3emv7i$r98@urvile.MSUS.EDU>
References: <3eh3kg$8bh@urvile.MSUS.EDU> <05JAN95.18611794.0086@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> <3eilou$d1i@urvile.MSUS.EDU>,<3ekfm1$krd@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Reply-To: hermann@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: tigger.stcloud.msus.edu

Danny Keren replies to me:

>[about Himmler's speech in Poznan]

># If he did say "exterminate," I would take it as meaning 
># the destruction of Jewry and not the _physical_ extermination of 
># ALL Jews.

>Bloody rubbish, plain and simple.

That's your OPINION, and yours is no sounder than mine.  If you wish to believe
Himmler meant gas the Jews, that's fine, but don't EXPECT everyone else to
believe it too.

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