From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Thu Feb  1 10:02:24 PST 1996
Article: 13032 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: Re: Statement of the Aryan Corps Regarding Germany's Censorship
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 15:17:47 GMT
Lines: 148
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:17371 alt.politics.nationalism.white:13032 alt.revisionism:22339 alt.skinheads:10956

Efforts Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
References:  <4en7bc$rh9@Networking.Stanford.EDU>   
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet

Rich Graves (rich@c2.org) writes:

>>>>STATEMENT OF THE ARYAN CORPS REGARDING GERMANY'S CENSORSHIP EFFORTS

>>> [calls for mirrors of the well-known zundelsite]

>>Wrong.  It is a call for much more than Zundelsite mirrors.

> Yes. It's also full of inaccuracies, some of which I have pointed out.

> Do you understand who I am? Check headers.

Do I care?  Am I supposed to bow down and worship thee?

>>>> STATEMENT OF THE ARYAN CORPS REGARDING GERMANY'S CENSORSHIP EFFORTS

>>> [calls for mirrors of the well-known zundelsite]

>>Quit lying.  I did not call for mirrors of the Zundelsite or any other
>>controversial site.  I call for FREEDOM SITES -- platforms from which to
>>actually connect to the controversial sites themselves, not mirrored sites.

>>Admit that you are upset that I came up with a better idea than you.

> Um... I'm not sure I know what you mean. Please explain.

> If you mean that people should create hyperlinks to the original
> Zundelsite, um, then you are even more of an idiot than I thought. The
> original site is simply unreachable. Adding hyperlinks to it, assuming
> anyone would actually want to folow them, would only make matters worse 
> for you.

Actually, I'm not so much concerned about the Zundelsite, than I'm
concerned about sites like Stormfront, which AOL and others _in America_
have reportedly blocked access to.

Notice I said "TELNET" links, rather than specifically "http."  What I
propose are information retrieval platforms, much like FreeNets, which
will allow users behind the Electronic Iron Curtain, and possibly now
America, if the reports about AOL are true, to connect to the FREEDOM
SITE, and then use a browser at that site to retrieve what they want,
regardless of content -- left, right, whatever. 

>>I propose permanent sites which will allow direct access _to_ the contro-
>>versial sites, not mirrors of controversial sites. 
 
> Yes. Good proposal. I'm all for it. As soon as *any one* of your 
> imbecilic brethren gathers together enough of a clue to put a working 
> mirror together, I'll replace my files with links to yours. I hate having 
> all that blood on my disks.

We have established mirrors many times, long before you pointed your nose
into this matter.  For example, the www.natvan.com site was mirrored on
www.cris.com in less than a day after the former was forced off.

> This assumes that you can find anyone with a college education to
> voluntarily host your trash for its own sake, not as a protest against net
> censorship. 

Reuben and I both have undergraduate degrees.

> I seriously doubt you'd be able to find anyone who shares your views at,
> say, Stanford, MIT, CMU, or Penn. I don't want to sound too elitist, but
> these schools have certain minimum academic standards that are not
> typically met by the white bedsheets as clothing crowd.

First, I have nothing to do with bedsheet wearers.  Second, if you really
believe that the Alliance does not have many members at universities,
including the rich men's schools, then you are deluding yourself. 

> As it stands, and has stood for three days, you are dependent on the good
> will of freedom-loving people who despise you for your Web pages'
> continued existence. 

> In effect, you are a ward of the state.

You're really funny.  :-)

I invite the reader to check out these sites, provided they're not blocked
>from  your ISP:

http://stormfront.wat.com/stormfront/
http://www.io.com/~wlp/
http://www.natvan.com/
http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel/

We had another major commercial (i.e. we paid for it) site at http://
trend1.com/~phoenix/, until the _Time_ article on January 22nd led tens of
thousands of people there, threatening the host system's operations.  Mark
is presently working on a mirror, as his studies at Rutgers permit.

> We pity you.

> How does that make you feel?

Amused at how pathetic your attempt at humor is.

>>> Surely you knew about this, and yet you claim this as your idea. Exactly
>>> how stupid do you think we are? 

>>As a matter of fact, Reuben Logsdon had come up with this idea before you did.

> Bullshit. We have it on videotape. It will be broadcast on PBS next week. 
> Watch "The Freedom Forum." See http://www.fac.org/ for showtimes. I 
> believe I was wearing a grey sweatshirt, or maybe a brown leather jacket.

Oooooh!  Videotape.  Can anyone say "staged effort"?

> Anyway, actions speak far louder than bluster. Where is your site? It 
> took me less than two hours, and most of the delays were on Marc's end.

And what do you do all day?  My friends who are versed in html are either
busy with school or with actual employment.  It might take them a week to
get the mirrors up and running.

>>"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
>>squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the White
>>racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
>>the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"  -- Bob Mathews

> Please, please keep posting this. I love it when you say that in public.
> You sound like such a fool.
 
> Even better, post The Fourteen Words. Ooh...

 "We must secure the existence of our People and a future for White children."

> Maybe we'll post them for you, and other racist trash from your BBS. 
> How would you like that? I doubt you could defend them as trade secrets.

Which BBS?  I don't have one.

Since Jamie McCarthy and Ken Mcvay have already posted material from the
Stormfront mailing list, if that's what you're referring to, you're
proposing nothing new.

I guess you don't have ANY original ideas.  :-)


--
"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the White
racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"  -- Bob Mathews


From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Thu Feb  1 10:04:25 PST 1996
Article: 10956 of alt.skinheads
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: Re: Statement of the Aryan Corps Regarding Germany's Censorship
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 15:17:47 GMT
Lines: 148
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:17371 alt.politics.nationalism.white:13032 alt.revisionism:22339 alt.skinheads:10956

Efforts Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
References:  <4en7bc$rh9@Networking.Stanford.EDU>   
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet

Rich Graves (rich@c2.org) writes:

>>>>STATEMENT OF THE ARYAN CORPS REGARDING GERMANY'S CENSORSHIP EFFORTS

>>> [calls for mirrors of the well-known zundelsite]

>>Wrong.  It is a call for much more than Zundelsite mirrors.

> Yes. It's also full of inaccuracies, some of which I have pointed out.

> Do you understand who I am? Check headers.

Do I care?  Am I supposed to bow down and worship thee?

>>>> STATEMENT OF THE ARYAN CORPS REGARDING GERMANY'S CENSORSHIP EFFORTS

>>> [calls for mirrors of the well-known zundelsite]

>>Quit lying.  I did not call for mirrors of the Zundelsite or any other
>>controversial site.  I call for FREEDOM SITES -- platforms from which to
>>actually connect to the controversial sites themselves, not mirrored sites.

>>Admit that you are upset that I came up with a better idea than you.

> Um... I'm not sure I know what you mean. Please explain.

> If you mean that people should create hyperlinks to the original
> Zundelsite, um, then you are even more of an idiot than I thought. The
> original site is simply unreachable. Adding hyperlinks to it, assuming
> anyone would actually want to folow them, would only make matters worse 
> for you.

Actually, I'm not so much concerned about the Zundelsite, than I'm
concerned about sites like Stormfront, which AOL and others _in America_
have reportedly blocked access to.

Notice I said "TELNET" links, rather than specifically "http."  What I
propose are information retrieval platforms, much like FreeNets, which
will allow users behind the Electronic Iron Curtain, and possibly now
America, if the reports about AOL are true, to connect to the FREEDOM
SITE, and then use a browser at that site to retrieve what they want,
regardless of content -- left, right, whatever. 

>>I propose permanent sites which will allow direct access _to_ the contro-
>>versial sites, not mirrors of controversial sites. 
 
> Yes. Good proposal. I'm all for it. As soon as *any one* of your 
> imbecilic brethren gathers together enough of a clue to put a working 
> mirror together, I'll replace my files with links to yours. I hate having 
> all that blood on my disks.

We have established mirrors many times, long before you pointed your nose
into this matter.  For example, the www.natvan.com site was mirrored on
www.cris.com in less than a day after the former was forced off.

> This assumes that you can find anyone with a college education to
> voluntarily host your trash for its own sake, not as a protest against net
> censorship. 

Reuben and I both have undergraduate degrees.

> I seriously doubt you'd be able to find anyone who shares your views at,
> say, Stanford, MIT, CMU, or Penn. I don't want to sound too elitist, but
> these schools have certain minimum academic standards that are not
> typically met by the white bedsheets as clothing crowd.

First, I have nothing to do with bedsheet wearers.  Second, if you really
believe that the Alliance does not have many members at universities,
including the rich men's schools, then you are deluding yourself. 

> As it stands, and has stood for three days, you are dependent on the good
> will of freedom-loving people who despise you for your Web pages'
> continued existence. 

> In effect, you are a ward of the state.

You're really funny.  :-)

I invite the reader to check out these sites, provided they're not blocked
>from  your ISP:

http://stormfront.wat.com/stormfront/
http://www.io.com/~wlp/
http://www.natvan.com/
http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel/

We had another major commercial (i.e. we paid for it) site at http://
trend1.com/~phoenix/, until the _Time_ article on January 22nd led tens of
thousands of people there, threatening the host system's operations.  Mark
is presently working on a mirror, as his studies at Rutgers permit.

> We pity you.

> How does that make you feel?

Amused at how pathetic your attempt at humor is.

>>> Surely you knew about this, and yet you claim this as your idea. Exactly
>>> how stupid do you think we are? 

>>As a matter of fact, Reuben Logsdon had come up with this idea before you did.

> Bullshit. We have it on videotape. It will be broadcast on PBS next week. 
> Watch "The Freedom Forum." See http://www.fac.org/ for showtimes. I 
> believe I was wearing a grey sweatshirt, or maybe a brown leather jacket.

Oooooh!  Videotape.  Can anyone say "staged effort"?

> Anyway, actions speak far louder than bluster. Where is your site? It 
> took me less than two hours, and most of the delays were on Marc's end.

And what do you do all day?  My friends who are versed in html are either
busy with school or with actual employment.  It might take them a week to
get the mirrors up and running.

>>"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
>>squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the White
>>racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
>>the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"  -- Bob Mathews

> Please, please keep posting this. I love it when you say that in public.
> You sound like such a fool.
 
> Even better, post The Fourteen Words. Ooh...

 "We must secure the existence of our People and a future for White children."

> Maybe we'll post them for you, and other racist trash from your BBS. 
> How would you like that? I doubt you could defend them as trade secrets.

Which BBS?  I don't have one.

Since Jamie McCarthy and Ken Mcvay have already posted material from the
Stormfront mailing list, if that's what you're referring to, you're
proposing nothing new.

I guess you don't have ANY original ideas.  :-)


--
"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the White
racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"  -- Bob Mathews


From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sun Feb  4 10:12:52 PST 1996
Article: 22690 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: Good Doggie!  Fetch some more anti-Semitic posts...
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:11:46 GMT
Lines: 19
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:22690 alt.politics.white-power:17734 alt.politics.nationalism.white:13265

In a smoke-filled room, somewhere on Vancouver Island...

Ken Mcvay:  "Damn that Kleim!  He's making me look like an asshole.  What 
            are you guys gonna do?"

Rabbi Steinbaum:  "Oy vey, Mcvay!  Vot are YOU goink to do?  Vot do you think
                  vee are payink you for?  Do you vont to go back to selling
                  schokolat bars at the gas station?"

Abe Cohn:  "Damned be Jesus!!  You hired a _gas station attendant_?  This is
           a waste of time.  I'm going back to New Yuk!"

Ken Mcvay:  "I'm sorry, I'm sorry.  I just need more time."

Rabbi Steinbaum:  "Time!  Time!  I lost over one hundert family in the 
                  showers of Dachau!  You vont 'time'.  Vee have no 'time'."

David Weiss:  "What can we expect from a goyish putz?"



From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sat Feb 10 13:41:55 PST 1996
Article: 67813 of soc.culture.german
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.belgium
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: Re: Internet Censorship Report for The European Commission
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 02:48:29 GMT
Lines: 98
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:67813 soc.culture.netherlands:40197 soc.culture.nordic:45305 soc.culture.belgium:15333

Damien Eames (hydra@easynet.co.uk) writes:

> Hydra Associates is a consutancy company based in London. We are preparing
> a report for the European Commission on 'The Protection of Minors and
> Human Dignity in the Information Society'
 
> This report will inform the drafting of a Green Paper on interactive
> point-to-point services (including internet, video-on-demand, etc.) to be
> published this year. This may in turn lead to a directive on the subject
> which may include content regulation. If it does this regulation will
> apply to all 15 member states of the European Union. 
 
> I would be very interested to have information on any of the following
> subjects as it would help us a good deal in writing our report. 
 
> 1. the plausibility of different forms of internet censorship (regulatory
>    or technical) at a national level 

Effective national level censorship of the Internet is impossible, as can
be seen with the Deutsche Telekom case.  Liberty-minded persons outside of
the state which controls its citizens' access to information can easily
overcome "isolated" single-state-specific censorship efforts.  Provided
international TELNET links and e-mail are possible from the country with
censorship, state censorship can not succeed.  Persons who wish to obtain
"controversial" information can obtain it in another country which
cherishes freedom of conscience and expression. 

There is, of course, the possibility of shutting down all links to the
"outside world," but the whole purpose of being connected to the Net is
then defeated.  Should a modern and technologically advanced country like
Germany cut itself off from the rest of the Internet to achieve censorship
of alternative political and entertainment materials, deterimental effects
of _a severe nature_ would occur to the educational and cultural arenas in
the censoring country, since beneficial information would be denied to the
vast majority of those in that society. 

> 2. their plausibility at an international level 

Worldwide censorship would be difficult, though not impossible.  No elec-
tronic censorship effort, even imposed planet-wide, would have total
effectiveness due to the technological implictions of this matter.  The
Internet community reviles censorship, and has a powerful resilience
against any effort to restrict information flow over the Net. 

There are hundreds of thousands of computer science experts, and millions
of non-technically-oriented individuals, who can and will make every
effort to subvert and circumvent censorship, wherever or however it
occurs.  The best that could be achieved with a coordinated, worldwide
censorship policy would be to deny _convenient_ access to alternative
political and entertainment materials.  Access could not and would not be
_totally_ denied, as thousands of people would covertly and stealthily
distribute the information through any and all available channels. 

The costs and detrimental effects of worldwide censorship of the Net
greatly outweigh the real and alleged benefits to society or the censoring
agency, since millions of people would seek out such information _as a
direct result of it's statutory prohibition_, and the policy would
generate resentment against and disillusionment with the governmental
agencies imposing censorship.  Persons who believe in alternative
political ideas or enjoy alternative entertainment -- the targets of a
censorship campaign -- would attain the status of "martyrs,"  increasing
their credibility in most cases, and their ideas would be unavoidably
given much wider distribution as a result of legal sanctions against them. 
The wisest course to follow regarding alternative politics and entertain-
ment materials is for governments and other entities to _ignore_
relatively benign "controversial" expression and information, and hence
deny it enhanced respectability and dissemination. 

> 3. key barriers to any watertight forms of control 

The very nature of electronic communications technologies makes it impos-
sible to achieve "water-tight" barriers against freedom of information
distribution.  Only _legal_ means of electronic data/information distribu-
tion can be prohibited.  Individuals who believe in absolute free expres-
sion and are technically-aware can and will subvert and circumvent censor-
ship efforts by the State through renegade, illicit means, including
forgery of data transmission commands and similar methods.  One cannot
prohibit a person from making a phone call to another phone to which the
former is linked; similarly, one cannot prohibit data from being trans-
ferred across communication networks by issuing a law against it. 

> 4. indicators of the amount of 'obscene' or other types of (potentially)
>    'unsuitable' material available on the Internet and other online 
>    services

How does one define "unsuitable" material?  What is "obscene"?  Do we use 
secular standards?  Christian standards?  Islamic standards?

> 5. any published reports which tackle these issues

The ongoing worldwide censorship campaign by governmental, quasi-govern-
mental (such as the US-based _Anti-Defamation League_), and private
organizations, groups and individuals is fairly recent, and I am not aware
of any relevant reports analyzing the prohibition of freedom of expression
on the Internet. 

-- Milton John Kleim, Jr.



From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sun Feb 11 08:56:35 PST 1996
Article: 67813 of soc.culture.german
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.belgium
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: Re: Internet Censorship Report for The European Commission
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 02:48:29 GMT
Lines: 98
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:67813 soc.culture.netherlands:40197 soc.culture.nordic:45305 soc.culture.belgium:15333

Damien Eames (hydra@easynet.co.uk) writes:

> Hydra Associates is a consutancy company based in London. We are preparing
> a report for the European Commission on 'The Protection of Minors and
> Human Dignity in the Information Society'
 
> This report will inform the drafting of a Green Paper on interactive
> point-to-point services (including internet, video-on-demand, etc.) to be
> published this year. This may in turn lead to a directive on the subject
> which may include content regulation. If it does this regulation will
> apply to all 15 member states of the European Union. 
 
> I would be very interested to have information on any of the following
> subjects as it would help us a good deal in writing our report. 
 
> 1. the plausibility of different forms of internet censorship (regulatory
>    or technical) at a national level 

Effective national level censorship of the Internet is impossible, as can
be seen with the Deutsche Telekom case.  Liberty-minded persons outside of
the state which controls its citizens' access to information can easily
overcome "isolated" single-state-specific censorship efforts.  Provided
international TELNET links and e-mail are possible from the country with
censorship, state censorship can not succeed.  Persons who wish to obtain
"controversial" information can obtain it in another country which
cherishes freedom of conscience and expression. 

There is, of course, the possibility of shutting down all links to the
"outside world," but the whole purpose of being connected to the Net is
then defeated.  Should a modern and technologically advanced country like
Germany cut itself off from the rest of the Internet to achieve censorship
of alternative political and entertainment materials, deterimental effects
of _a severe nature_ would occur to the educational and cultural arenas in
the censoring country, since beneficial information would be denied to the
vast majority of those in that society. 

> 2. their plausibility at an international level 

Worldwide censorship would be difficult, though not impossible.  No elec-
tronic censorship effort, even imposed planet-wide, would have total
effectiveness due to the technological implictions of this matter.  The
Internet community reviles censorship, and has a powerful resilience
against any effort to restrict information flow over the Net. 

There are hundreds of thousands of computer science experts, and millions
of non-technically-oriented individuals, who can and will make every
effort to subvert and circumvent censorship, wherever or however it
occurs.  The best that could be achieved with a coordinated, worldwide
censorship policy would be to deny _convenient_ access to alternative
political and entertainment materials.  Access could not and would not be
_totally_ denied, as thousands of people would covertly and stealthily
distribute the information through any and all available channels. 

The costs and detrimental effects of worldwide censorship of the Net
greatly outweigh the real and alleged benefits to society or the censoring
agency, since millions of people would seek out such information _as a
direct result of it's statutory prohibition_, and the policy would
generate resentment against and disillusionment with the governmental
agencies imposing censorship.  Persons who believe in alternative
political ideas or enjoy alternative entertainment -- the targets of a
censorship campaign -- would attain the status of "martyrs,"  increasing
their credibility in most cases, and their ideas would be unavoidably
given much wider distribution as a result of legal sanctions against them. 
The wisest course to follow regarding alternative politics and entertain-
ment materials is for governments and other entities to _ignore_
relatively benign "controversial" expression and information, and hence
deny it enhanced respectability and dissemination. 

> 3. key barriers to any watertight forms of control 

The very nature of electronic communications technologies makes it impos-
sible to achieve "water-tight" barriers against freedom of information
distribution.  Only _legal_ means of electronic data/information distribu-
tion can be prohibited.  Individuals who believe in absolute free expres-
sion and are technically-aware can and will subvert and circumvent censor-
ship efforts by the State through renegade, illicit means, including
forgery of data transmission commands and similar methods.  One cannot
prohibit a person from making a phone call to another phone to which the
former is linked; similarly, one cannot prohibit data from being trans-
ferred across communication networks by issuing a law against it. 

> 4. indicators of the amount of 'obscene' or other types of (potentially)
>    'unsuitable' material available on the Internet and other online 
>    services

How does one define "unsuitable" material?  What is "obscene"?  Do we use 
secular standards?  Christian standards?  Islamic standards?

> 5. any published reports which tackle these issues

The ongoing worldwide censorship campaign by governmental, quasi-govern-
mental (such as the US-based _Anti-Defamation League_), and private
organizations, groups and individuals is fairly recent, and I am not aware
of any relevant reports analyzing the prohibition of freedom of expression
on the Internet. 

-- Milton John Kleim, Jr.



Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.belgium,alt.politics.white-power,alt.censorship
Subject: The National Alliance: Suppression of Ideas
Summary: 
Expires: 
References: 
Sender: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Keywords: 
Cc: 

In article , 
bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim) wrote:

[Interesting comments about the futility of censoring the
internet]

>Should a modern and technologically advanced country like
>Germany cut itself off from the rest of the Internet to achieve censorship
>of alternative political and entertainment materials, deterimental effects
>of _a severe nature_ would occur to the educational and cultural arenas in
>the censoring country, since beneficial information would be denied to the
>vast majority of those in that society. 

Interesting that you recognize that reality, Mr. Kleim.
Perhaps, since you clearly do, you can explain how the
National Alliance's clear program of suppression of thoughts
and ideas it finds unacceptable in its coming "Aryan nation"
are reconciled with your apparent opposition to censorship.

The National Alliance WEB site clearly specifies the nature of
the censorship and suppression which could be expected under a
NA government:

http://www.natvan.com/WHAT/na2.html

   "What we must have, however, is a thorough rooting out
   of Semitic and other non-Aryan values and customs everywhere.
   We must once again provide the sort of social and spiritual
   environment in which our own nature can express itself in 
   music, in art and architecture, in literature, in philosophy 
   and scholarship, in the mass media, and in the life-styles 
   of the people."

In short, although you appear to present yourself as an
advocate of unfettered speech, you also promote a thoroughly
discredited political ideal which would openly and
aggressively censor every aspect of society.

   "In specific terms, this means a society in which young men and
   women gather to revel with polkas or waltzes, reels or jigs, or any
   other White dances, but never to undulate or jerk to negroid jazz or
   rock rhythms. It means pop music without Barry Manilow and art
   galleries without Marc Chagall. It means films in which the appearance
   of any non-White face on the screen is a sure sign that
   what's being shown is either archival newsreel footage or a historical
   drama about the bad, old days."

Music is to be censored and suppressed,
Dance is to be censored and suppressed,
Art is to be censored and suppressed,
Film is to be censored and suppressed.
Will the InterNet be left out of this equation, Mr. Kleim?

One is instantly reminded of the words of Josef Goebbles, who
said:

   "We, the National Socialists, have never taken pride
   in representing democratic beliefs, but we openly
   declared that we used democratic means in order to
   achieve power. After achieving this power, we would
   ruthlessly deny all those means which had been granted
   to us when we were in the opposition." (Harvey, Ian.
   The Technique of Persuasion. London: The Falcon Press,
   1951. p. 149)

From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sun Feb 11 10:56:18 PST 1996
Article: 27162 of alt.activism
Newsgroups: alt.internet.media-coverage,alt.culture.usenet,alt.activism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: Re: Internet Censorship Report for The European Commission
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 02:36:10 GMT
Lines: 98
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.internet.media-coverage:13942 alt.culture.usenet:18748 alt.activism:27162

Damien Eames (hydra@easynet.co.uk) writes:

> Hydra Associates is a consutancy company based in London. We are preparing
> a report for the European Commission on 'The Protection of Minors and
> Human Dignity in the Information Society'
 
> This report will inform the drafting of a Green Paper on interactive
> point-to-point services (including internet, video-on-demand, etc.) to be
> published this year. This may in turn lead to a directive on the subject
> which may include content regulation. If it does this regulation will
> apply to all 15 member states of the European Union. 
 
> I would be very interested to have information on any of the following
> subjects as it would help us a good deal in writing our report. 
 
> 1. the plausibility of different forms of internet censorship (regulatory
>    or technical) at a national level 

Effective national level censorship of the Internet is impossible, as can
be seen with the Deutsche Telekom case.  Liberty-minded persons outside of
the state which controls its citizens' access to information can easily
overcome "isolated" single-state-specific censorship efforts.  Provided
international TELNET links and e-mail are possible from the country with
censorship, state censorship can not succeed.  Persons who wish to obtain
"controversial" information can obtain it in another country which
cherishes freedom of conscience and expression. 

There is, of course, the possibility of shutting down all links to the
"outside world," but the whole purpose of being connected to the Net is
then defeated.  Should a modern and technologically advanced country like
Germany cut itself off from the rest of the Internet to achieve censorship
of alternative political and entertainment materials, deterimental effects
of _a severe nature_ would occur to the educational and cultural arenas in
the censoring country, since beneficial information would be denied to the
vast majority of those in that society. 

> 2. their plausibility at an international level 

Worldwide censorship would be difficult, though not impossible.  No elec-
tronic censorship effort, even imposed planet-wide, would have total
effectiveness due to the technological implictions of this matter.  The
Internet community reviles censorship, and has a powerful resilience
against any effort to restrict information flow over the Net. 

There are hundreds of thousands of computer science experts, and millions
of non-technically-oriented individuals, who can and will make every
effort to subvert and circumvent censorship, wherever or however it
occurs.  The best that could be achieved with a coordinated, worldwide
censorship policy would be to deny _convenient_ access to alternative
political and entertainment materials.  Access could not and would not be
_totally_ denied, as thousands of people would covertly and stealthily
distribute the information through any and all available channels. 

The costs and detrimental effects of worldwide censorship of the Net
greatly outweigh the real and alleged benefits to society or the censoring
agency, since millions of people would seek out such information _as a
direct result of it's statutory prohibition_, and the policy would
generate resentment against and disillusionment with the governmental
agencies imposing censorship.  Persons who believe in alternative
political ideas or enjoy alternative entertainment -- the targets of a
censorship campaign -- would attain the status of "martyrs,"  increasing
their credibility in most cases, and their ideas would be unavoidably
given much wider distribution as a result of legal sanctions against them. 
The wisest course to follow regarding alternative politics and entertain-
ment materials is for governments and other entities to _ignore_
relatively benign "controversial" expression and information, and hence
deny it enhanced respectability and dissemination. 

> 3. key barriers to any watertight forms of control 

The very nature of electronic communications technologies makes it impos-
sible to achieve "water-tight" barriers against freedom of information
distribution.  Only _legal_ means of electronic data/information distribu-
tion can be prohibited.  Individuals who believe in absolute free expres-
sion and are technically-aware can and will subvert and circumvent censor-
ship efforts by the State through renegade, illicit means, including
forgery of data transmission commands and similar methods.  One cannot
prohibit a person from making a phone call to another phone to which the
former is linked; similarly, one cannot prohibit data from being trans-
ferred across communication networks by issuing a law against it. 

> 4. indicators of the amount of 'obscene' or other types of (potentially)
>    'unsuitable' material available on the Internet and other online 
>    services

How does one define "unsuitable" material?  What is "obscene"?  Do we use 
secular standards?  Christian standards?  Islamic standards?

> 5. any published reports which tackle these issues

The ongoing worldwide censorship campaign by governmental, quasi-govern-
mental (such as the US-based _Anti-Defamation League_), and private
organizations, groups and individuals is fairly recent, and I am not aware
of any relevant reports analyzing the prohibition of freedom of expression
on the Internet. 

-- Milton John Kleim, Jr.



From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sun Feb 11 11:47:28 PST 1996
Article: 325448 of talk.politics.misc
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.correct,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.usa.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: Re: Internet Censorship Report for The European Commission
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 02:39:04 GMT
Lines: 98
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:325448 alt.politics.correct:79182 soc.culture.usa:78215 alt.politics.usa.misc:56551

Damien Eames (hydra@easynet.co.uk) writes:

> Hydra Associates is a consutancy company based in London. We are preparing
> a report for the European Commission on 'The Protection of Minors and
> Human Dignity in the Information Society'
 
> This report will inform the drafting of a Green Paper on interactive
> point-to-point services (including internet, video-on-demand, etc.) to be
> published this year. This may in turn lead to a directive on the subject
> which may include content regulation. If it does this regulation will
> apply to all 15 member states of the European Union. 
 
> I would be very interested to have information on any of the following
> subjects as it would help us a good deal in writing our report. 
 
> 1. the plausibility of different forms of internet censorship (regulatory
>    or technical) at a national level 

Effective national level censorship of the Internet is impossible, as can
be seen with the Deutsche Telekom case.  Liberty-minded persons outside of
the state which controls its citizens' access to information can easily
overcome "isolated" single-state-specific censorship efforts.  Provided
international TELNET links and e-mail are possible from the country with
censorship, state censorship can not succeed.  Persons who wish to obtain
"controversial" information can obtain it in another country which
cherishes freedom of conscience and expression. 

There is, of course, the possibility of shutting down all links to the
"outside world," but the whole purpose of being connected to the Net is
then defeated.  Should a modern and technologically advanced country like
Germany cut itself off from the rest of the Internet to achieve censorship
of alternative political and entertainment materials, deterimental effects
of _a severe nature_ would occur to the educational and cultural arenas in
the censoring country, since beneficial information would be denied to the
vast majority of those in that society. 

> 2. their plausibility at an international level 

Worldwide censorship would be difficult, though not impossible.  No elec-
tronic censorship effort, even imposed planet-wide, would have total
effectiveness due to the technological implictions of this matter.  The
Internet community reviles censorship, and has a powerful resilience
against any effort to restrict information flow over the Net. 

There are hundreds of thousands of computer science experts, and millions
of non-technically-oriented individuals, who can and will make every
effort to subvert and circumvent censorship, wherever or however it
occurs.  The best that could be achieved with a coordinated, worldwide
censorship policy would be to deny _convenient_ access to alternative
political and entertainment materials.  Access could not and would not be
_totally_ denied, as thousands of people would covertly and stealthily
distribute the information through any and all available channels. 

The costs and detrimental effects of worldwide censorship of the Net
greatly outweigh the real and alleged benefits to society or the censoring
agency, since millions of people would seek out such information _as a
direct result of it's statutory prohibition_, and the policy would
generate resentment against and disillusionment with the governmental
agencies imposing censorship.  Persons who believe in alternative
political ideas or enjoy alternative entertainment -- the targets of a
censorship campaign -- would attain the status of "martyrs,"  increasing
their credibility in most cases, and their ideas would be unavoidably
given much wider distribution as a result of legal sanctions against them. 
The wisest course to follow regarding alternative politics and entertain-
ment materials is for governments and other entities to _ignore_
relatively benign "controversial" expression and information, and hence
deny it enhanced respectability and dissemination. 

> 3. key barriers to any watertight forms of control 

The very nature of electronic communications technologies makes it impos-
sible to achieve "water-tight" barriers against freedom of information
distribution.  Only _legal_ means of electronic data/information distribu-
tion can be prohibited.  Individuals who believe in absolute free expres-
sion and are technically-aware can and will subvert and circumvent censor-
ship efforts by the State through renegade, illicit means, including
forgery of data transmission commands and similar methods.  One cannot
prohibit a person from making a phone call to another phone to which the
former is linked; similarly, one cannot prohibit data from being trans-
ferred across communication networks by issuing a law against it. 

> 4. indicators of the amount of 'obscene' or other types of (potentially)
>    'unsuitable' material available on the Internet and other online 
>    services

How does one define "unsuitable" material?  What is "obscene"?  Do we use 
secular standards?  Christian standards?  Islamic standards?

> 5. any published reports which tackle these issues

The ongoing worldwide censorship campaign by governmental, quasi-govern-
mental (such as the US-based _Anti-Defamation League_), and private
organizations, groups and individuals is fairly recent, and I am not aware
of any relevant reports analyzing the prohibition of freedom of expression
on the Internet. 

-- Milton John Kleim, Jr.



From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Thu Feb 15 08:21:09 PST 1996
Article: 18823 of alt.politics.white-power
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: Re: Freedom, my ass (was: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance)
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:  <4foqdf$p6m@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4fr08k$7pv@curly.cc.emory.edu>  
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:32:21 GMT
Lines: 9

Les Griswold replies to habitual liar Rich Graves:

>> inspired by the clearly loony Turner Diaries, which are not, in fact,
>> censored in most countries). 
 
> But _The Turner Diaries_ IS banned in Canada.

As it is in Germany, Britain, and several other EU states.



From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Fri Feb 16 20:24:51 PST 1996
Article: 23818 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: Re: Pierce a National Socialist?
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:  
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 02:06:04 GMT
Lines: 33

Jamie McCarthy (jamie@voyager.net) writes:

> Milton Kleim has repeatedly claimed that the National Alliance is
> not a Nazi or neo-Nazi organization.  And just to be sure we're
> talking about the same thing, by "Nazi" I mean "National Socialist."
> (Kleim has also claimed that the term "Nazi" is derogative and means
> something other than "National Socialist.")

> Mr. Kleim, do you still maintain that the National Alliance is not a
> Nazi or neo-Nazi organization?

I'll let Dr. Pierce answer:

"Inevitably, every member who engages in public activity, so that he is
recognized publicly as a member, will be asked, "Are you a Nazi?" or, "Are
you a neo-Nazi?," just as the National Alliance is routinely described in
the controlled media as a "Nazi" (or "neo-Nazi") organization....

"So, how does a member answer this question?  If he wants to give a meaning-
ful answer, he must know what is in the mind of his interrogator: What is
his interrogator's understanding of "Nazi"?  If it's a Politically Correct
bigot (which will be the case for anyone working for the controlled
media), or even a typical "couch potato" whose ideas all came from a
television tube, we know that he is thinking of sinister-looking men in
black uniforms and swastika armbands who like to click their heels
together, thrust out their right arms, and shout "Sieg Heil!" before
marching off to gleefully machine-gun a group of prisoners who were
arrested for listening to the wrong radio program or failing to have a
photograph of the _Fuehrer_ displayed in their living rooms.  This
mythical "Nazi" is an invention of the Jews who control the mass media,
and so the member is perfectly correct in answering, "No, I am not a Nazi,
and the National Alliance is not a Nazi organization."



From rich@c2.org Sat Feb 17 19:32:21 PST 1996
Article: 23940 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!unixhub!news.Stanford.EDU!tip-mp6-ncs-11.stanford.edu!user
From: rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.2600,alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,misc.legal,alt.skinheads,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame
Subject: Re: Interesting tag-team "censorship" spam/troll in soc.culture.* and alt.politics.*
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 18:10:18 -0800
Organization: Uncensored Internet, http://www.c2.org/uncensored/
Lines: 140
Message-ID: 
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: tip-mp6-ncs-11.stanford.edu
Summary: Go ahead, punk. Make my day. Followups redirected appropriately.
X-URL: http://www.c2.org/~rich/
X-PGP-Print: ED CA 67 98 AD 2A 62 2A  01 17 78 A8 33 F2 6D E0
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.4
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:34401 alt.2600:97122 alt.censorship:68903 alt.revisionism:23940 misc.legal:10999 alt.skinheads:12301 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:97 alt.politics.white-power:19034 alt.politics.nationalism.white:13999 alt.flame:4501

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Followups out of news.admin.net-abuse.misc, unless someone has
confirmation of who this "Hydra" fella was. I have asked Hydra and his
postmaster, but it appears that "Hydra" hasn't logged on since February
14th, so I somehow doubt that he will respond.

In article , bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
(Milton Kleim) wrote:

> Rich Graves (rich@c2.org) writes:
> 
> > These articles were followed up to by Milton Kleim, a professional
> > Neo-Nazi propagandist based in Minnesota who has been trolling Usenet
> > for several years. 
> 
> I am not a "professional progapandist." 

Indeed, your professionalism is clearly in doubt. Were I your superiors,
you would be shot for incompetence. If you're not a provocateur, you might
as well be one.

> I am not a "neo-Nazi."

That depends on your audience. You will quote chapter and verse from Dr.
Pierce and Louis Beam, leaders of the proudly National Socialist National
Alliance, but you will quote very different passages to different
audiences.

> I have not been on USENET for "several years."

The archives start with article <1993Oct31.190520.6284@msus1.msus.edu>
dated 31 Oct 93 19:05:19 -0600. Presumably they had a reason to start
archiving your posts. You appear to have dropped the HERMANN nym with
article <1993Nov8.082137.6477@msus1.msus.edu>, or maybe a little before
that.

 http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/k/kleim.milton/

We will remember. You can't burn all the books.

> > The only reason I have the original Message-ID is that an innocent third
> > party posted followup article <4fat9a$rd3@oolong.memphis.edu>, which had
> > a correct References: line. Milton's posts did not have References: 
> > lines. This is not because his Freenet newsreader doesn't support 
> > References, because his other posts do thread properly.
>  
> > Headers from most of Milton's followup spams, all of which were totally
> > identical (because they had no References: header) and pretty closely
> > spaced (i.e., he didn't just happen to post these while reading the
> > newsgroups; he knew where to look), follow below.
> 
> What's your point, Mr. Graves?

I think most people found my point quite clear. I believe that you either
are or are in coordination with the person who used the Hydra account
exactly once for exactly one Usenet post, and that the purpose of the one
post was to give you an opportunity to "respond" with your prepared
propaganda piece, both on the Stormfront list (where you gave the messages
the subject headings "Internet censorship #1 and #2") and in the
newsgroups (where you got a bit carried away with your spamming). I find
this behavior quite dishonest, even by your standards.

> I found the Hydra post, and archived it until I could write an appropriate
> response.  By the time I had the response prepared, the post had
> "mysteriously" disappeared.  I posted my response as a "Re:" subject,
> although it was an "original" thread since the Hydra post I could not
> follow-up to for obvious reasons (if it was cancelled). 

As the message timestamps and multiple separate crossposts show, you're
clearly lying. Moreover, the style of your prepared response was markedly
different from the style of your usual posts. Did you get help from a
proofreader?

> On another issue, perhaps you could tell us more about the fraudulent
> posting to Stormfront this morning, Mr. Graves, using a forged bb748
> header?  You wouldn't "happen to" know anything about it, would you? 

I'm on the Stormfront list, and I read that message, and I read your
rather prompt followup, in which you threatened:

>From: ag264@detroit.freenet.org (Milton John Kleim)
>Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 08:30:49 -0500
>Subject: Forged submission to Stormfront
>
> Someone is playing a little game.  The message appended below fraudulently
> uses my name and NCF address.
> 
> I have an idea who the is perpetrator, but I will not name names.
> Rather, "special measures" will now be considered.  Our subversive friend
> apprently thinks he is immune to countermeasures.  We shall see.
> 
> Be aware of this problem, and act accordingly.

It could have been any one of your little friends. They could have forged
that message just to goad you, or you could have done it yourself as an
excuse for attacking me.

What, exactly, did you mean by "special countermeasures"? Given that the
Stormfront list owner, Don Black, served several years in the Federal
Penitentiary for armed subversion, and given that the Crusader
spammer/cracker/forger is known to be on the Stormfront list, and given
that the people on the Stormfront list generally consider Timothy McVeigh
(bombed the Oklahoma Federal Building) and the members of The Order
(robbed several banks, murdered a bunch of people) to be POWs in a race
war, and given that your usual .signature quotes Bob Matthews, a seriously
wacko terrorist who held hundreds of Federal agents at bay until they
finally said "Fuck it" and dropped a bomb on him, I don't suppose I have
any reason to be worried, do I?

By all means, please assume that I'm responsible for the forgery. Now if
anything at all bad happens to me, you and the rest of the Stormfront
wackos and convicted criminals are going to be actively investigated by
the FBI and allied foreign (and private) agencies again.

By the way, I failed to make a number of credit payments this month on
purpose, just to establish a record you could use. Please pick up the
troll hook, line, and sinker; we're watching.

If you plan on dropping by to see me personally, please call first to
verify that I'm home. The number is 415-493-5009. The other Graves in the
phone book do not appreciate getting calls meant for me, and they don't
want to have to pay extra for traces. Sloppiness is not "Aryan." Keep it
clean.

Go ahead, punk. Make my day. 

- -rich
 Institute for Ernst Zundel Revisionism
 http://www.c2.org/~rich/Not_By_Me_Not_My_Views/

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From rich@c2.org Sun Feb 18 09:42:17 PST 1996
Article: 23952 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!biosci!news.Stanford.EDU!tip-mp6-ncs-11.stanford.edu!user
From: rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Milton Kleim's EMP Spam
Followup-To: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 20:59:35 -0800
Organization: Uncensored Internet, http://www.c2.org/uncensored/
Lines: 64
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tip-mp6-ncs-11.stanford.edu
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.4
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:34425 alt.censorship:68938 alt.revisionism:23952 comp.org.eff.talk:60657

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On second look, Milton's articles, judged on their own individual
demerits, *were* cancellable spam, under rule #2. The exact same article
was posted separately at least seven times, with a Breidbart index of 55.
He claims that they were followups to someone else's articles, but this is
simply not true.

While it's too late for any spam-cancel to be truly effective, I think it
would be good to issue cancels by general principle.

I'm not going to do it because obviously I'm somewhat biased against the
guy, but someone who does not have a demonstrable bias against Neo-Nazi
propagandists (OK, Milton, you're a "National Socialist activist." Feel
better?) should verify the facts and do so.

Though I might add that the sheer hypocrisy of the same person who posted
article <4dlv1f$h2n@garcia.efn.org>, "Joel Rosenberg: Decent Citizen?",
adding "FUCK the CDA" to his .signature to garner support is quite
staggering. That article was posted January 18th, 1996, just a couple weeks
before Miltie changed his .sig.

Message-IDs again for your reference:

- From           bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject:       Re: Internet Censorship Report for The European Commission
Organization   The National Capital FreeNet
Newsgroups    
talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.correct,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.usa.misc
Message-ID     

Newsgroups     soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.irish
Message-ID     

Newsgroups    
soc.culture.german,soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.belgium
Message-ID     

Newsgroups     soc.culture.french,soc.culture.italian,soc.culture.greek
Message-ID     

Newsgroups     soc.culture.portuguese,soc.culture.spain
Message-ID     

Newsgroups    
talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.sex
Message-ID     

Newsgroups     comp.org.eff.talk
Message-ID     

- -rich
 Institute for Ernst Zundel Revisionism
 http://www.c2.org/~rich/Not_By_Me_Not_My_Views/

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From rich@c2.org Sun Feb 18 10:16:00 PST 1996
Article: 23993 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!gw1.att.com!fnnews.fnal.gov!unixhub!news.Stanford.EDU!tip-mp6-ncs-11.stanford.edu!user
From: rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,mn.politics,alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.datahighway,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.cyberpunk,alt.politics.correct,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.activism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.skinheads
Subject: Milton Kleim, other Neo-Nazis: Anti-Censorship Activists?
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 22:06:44 -0800
Organization: Uncensored Internet, http://www.c2.org/uncensored/
Lines: 106
Approved: alt-hackers-request@2600.com (S.A.R.C.A.S.M.)
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tip-mp6-ncs-11.stanford.edu
Summary: Posted to most of the groups Miltie has lied to. Followups set.
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.4
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca comp.org.eff.talk:60673 alt.censorship:68989 alt.revisionism:23993 alt.politics.datahighway:13123 alt.politics.libertarian:139952 talk.politics.libertarian:67713 alt.cyberpunk:43072 alt.politics.correct:81908 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:101 alt.activism:29590 alt.politics.nationalism.white:14014 alt.politics.white-power:19050 alt.skinheads:12323

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

The Neo-Nazis have the right to speak and assemble freely, at least in
this country, and I'd like it to stay that way. I went out of my way, and
risked quite a bit, to initiate the mirroring of Ernst Zundel's files when
his original webcom.com site was blocked by Germany. But this doesn't mean
that I won't say that Nazis are a bunch of assholes. As the great poet
R.U. Sirius reportedly told Donahue, "I'm a free-speech absolutist. I am
against censoring Nazis, but I am in favor of killing them."

In recent weeks, Milton Kleim, who for at least the last three years has
been a propagandist for the Neo-Nazi National Alliance (Milton prefers the
term "National Socialist organizer"; references below), has posted a
number of articles to different groups presenting himself and other racist
National Socialists as anti-censorship activists. I would give you those
Message-IDs, but I believe they're being canceled as spam, so if you
haven't seen them, you won't (EMP, exact same article posted 7 times,
Breidbart index 55).

Milton recently added "FUCK the CDA!", referring to the so-called
Communications Decency Act in the USA, see http://www.vtw.org/, to his
.signature for certain lists and groups only.

However, less than one month ago, this same Milton Kleim (see Milton's
posts in news.admin.net-abuse.misc for confirmation that these several
accounts, all leeched off of FreeNets, the little cheapskate, are his),
made several laughable attempts (one below, more on DejaNews or in your
local news spool) to discredit a political opponent (elsewhere described
as "a dirty jew") by citing violations of a state ordinance with language
quite similar to that of the CDA.

I can't wait for Milton's explanation of this little bit of hypocrisy.
Posted and emailed.

See also the National Alliance home page, which Milton *sometimes*
includes in his .signature, depending on his audience, for their program
of repressing non-"Aryan" art and culture.

> Subject: Joel Rosenberg: Decent Citizen?
> From: mjk@efn.org (Milton Kleim) 
> Date: 1996/01/18
> MessageID: <4dlv1f$h2n@garcia.efn.org>
> Organization: Oregon Public Networking
> Newsgroups: mn.politics
> 
> Joel Rosenberg of the Twin Cities writes:
> 
> From: joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
> Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
> Subject: Re: Warning to all Brother Aryan Warriors: Schoedel won't
> (can't?) answer the question....
> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 08:22:24
> Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
> Lines: 17
> Message-ID: 
> 
> But you still haven't answered the question, phony "Reverend" --
> 
> Have you stopped f...ing your dog, Megan, yet?
> 
> 
> [Note: edited for decency]
> 
> -----
> 
> The Minnesota Legislature writes:
> 
> "Whoever, by means of a telephone, makes any comment, request, suggestion 
> or proposal which is obscene, lewd, or lascivious...shall be guilty of a 
> misdemeanor."
> 
>                                        -- Minnesota Statutes, 1994
>                                           609.79.1

Miltie? Are you going to admit that you're a fucking hypocrite, or are you
going to try to squirm out of this one somehow? Please address both your
own personal hypocrisy and the National Alliance's goals in your response.

For the National Alliance Program, which includes the institution of a
totalitarian "Aryan" state by any means necessary, see
http://www.natvan.com/ (the site most favored by Milton's "friend," the
Crusader spammer; Milton himself normally cites the less recognizable
mirror site http://www.io.com/~wlp/). I quote: 

http://www.natvan.com/WHAT/na2.html#aryan
> In specific terms, this means a society in which young men and women
> gather to revel with polkas or waltzes, reels or jigs, or any other White
> dances, but never to undulate or jerk to negroid jazz or rock rhythms. It
> means pop music without Barry Manilow and art galleries without Marc
> Chagall. It means films in which the appearance of any non-White face on
> the screen is a sure sign that what's being shown is either archival
> newsreel footage or a historical drama about the bad, old days.

- -rich
 Institute for Ernst Zundel Revisionism
 http://www.c2.org/~rich/Not_By_Me_Not_My_Views/

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From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sun Feb 18 18:05:18 PST 1996
Article: 14039 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,mn.politics,alt.censorship,alt.politics.datahighway,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: Re: Milton Kleim, other Neo-Nazis: Anti-Censorship Activists?
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:  
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 19:09:35 GMT
Lines: 99
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca comp.org.eff.talk:60735 alt.censorship:69108 alt.politics.datahighway:13154 alt.politics.libertarian:140107 alt.politics.correct:82080 alt.politics.nationalism.white:14039 alt.politics.white-power:19117

Rich Graves lies:

> The Neo-Nazis have the right to speak and assemble freely, at least in
> this country, and I'd like it to stay that way. 

Graves' Lie #1.  Several times you have advocated cancelling my posts.  
There's a term for that: 

Censorship.

> As the great poet R.U. Sirius reportedly told Donahue, "I'm a free-
> speech absolutist. I am against censoring Nazis, but I am in favor of 
> killing them."

Should I be surprised that you advocate murdering your opponents?

The most effective means to censor the opposition is to _eliminate_ the 
opposition.

I knew Graves was a Bolshevik.

> In recent weeks, Milton Kleim, who for at least the last three years has
> been a propagandist for the Neo-Nazi National Alliance...

Graves' Lie #2. I have not been on USENET or any other component of the 
Internet for more than 2 1/2 years.

I challenge Mr. Graves to prove otherwise.

> ...see Milton's posts in news.admin.net-abuse.misc for confirmation 
> that these several accounts, all leeched off of FreeNets, the little 
> cheapskate, are his...

And who's to say I don't make donations to the FreeNets?

I suppose you pay full market value for all your accounts and access to
the Net?  

Yeah, right. 

> > Subject: Joel Rosenberg: Decent Citizen?
> > From: mjk@efn.org (Milton Kleim) 
> > Date: 1996/01/18
> > MessageID: <4dlv1f$h2n@garcia.efn.org>
> > Organization: Oregon Public Networking
> > Newsgroups: mn.politics
 
> > Joel Rosenberg of the Twin Cities writes:
 
> > From: joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
> > Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
> > Subject: Re: Warning to all Brother Aryan Warriors: Schoedel won't
> > (can't?) answer the question....
> > Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 08:22:24
> > Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
> > Lines: 17
> > Message-ID: 
 
> > But you still haven't answered the question, phony "Reverend" --
 
> > Have you stopped f...ing your dog, Megan, yet?


> > [Note: edited for decency]

> > -----

> > The Minnesota Legislature writes:

> > "Whoever, by means of a telephone, makes any comment, request, suggestion 
> > or proposal which is obscene, lewd, or lascivious...shall be guilty of a 
> > misdemeanor."

> >                                        -- Minnesota Statutes, 1994
> >                                           609.79.1
 
> Miltie? Are you going to admit that you're a fucking hypocrite, or are you
> going to try to squirm out of this one somehow? 

Let's say, for the sake of argument, I do have "Fuck the CDA" in one of 
my accounts' .sig lines.  Is that statement "obscene, lewd, or lascivious"?
No.  And if you believe it is, then why do you repeat it?

Mr. Rosenberg made a patently obscene and libellous comment about 
beastiality, a crime in all 50 states.  You accuse me of using a swear 
word that has a variety of uses in various contexts, and is used daily by 
millions of Americans, including yourself.

> For the National Alliance Program, which includes the institution of a
> totalitarian "Aryan" state by any means necessary, see http://www.natvan.
> com/ (the site most favored by Milton's "friend," the Crusader spammer...

Graves' Lie #3: I do not know the "Crusader."  And the syadmin of 
natvan.com is not the "Crusader."

As for what Mr. Graves wants me to address about the Alliance program, he 
has yet to clarify what he is asking.




From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Mon Feb 19 12:04:40 PST 1996
Article: 34361 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.censorship
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!uniserve!oronet!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: Re: Interesting tag-team "censorship" spam/troll in soc.culture.* and alt.politics.*
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:  
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 20:13:08 GMT
Lines: 49
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:34361 alt.censorship:68847


Rich Graves (rich@c2.org) writes:

> These articles were followed up to by Milton Kleim, a professional
> Neo-Nazi propagandist based in Minnesota who has been trolling Usenet for
> several years. 

I am not a "professional progapandist." 

I am not a "neo-Nazi."

I have not been on USENET for "several years."

> He recently popped up with his new mjk@efn.org Freenet
> account in the k12.* hierarchy, shamelessly trolling for teenage skinheads
> and concerned parents.

My mjk@efn.org account is not "new."  I've had it for over a year.

I was not "trolling for teenage skinheads."  I _was_ introducing many of
the readers of k12.chat.senior and k12.chat.teacher to ideas the NEA and
other neo-Marxist groups sees fit not to allow into the discussion of race
and education.  I never tried to "hide" my racist views; my first post had
both Stormfront and the Alliance websites listed.

> The only reason I have the original Message-ID is that an innocent third
> party posted followup article <4fat9a$rd3@oolong.memphis.edu>, which had a
> correct References: line. Milton's posts did not have References: lines.
> This is not because his Freenet newsreader doesn't support References,
> because his other posts do thread properly.
 
> Headers from most of Milton's followup spams, all of which were totally
> identical (because they had no References: header) and pretty closely
> spaced (i.e., he didn't just happen to post these while reading the
> newsgroups; he knew where to look), follow below.

What's your point, Mr. Graves?

I found the Hydra post, and archived it until I could write an appropriate
response.  By the time I had the response prepared, the post had
"mysteriously" disappeared.  I posted my response as a "Re:" subject,
although it was an "original" thread since the Hydra post I could not
follow-up to for obvious reasons (if it was cancelled). 


On another issue, perhaps you could tell us more about the fraudulent
posting to Stormfront this morning, Mr. Graves, using a forged bb748
header?  You wouldn't "happen to" know anything about it, would you? 



From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Mon Feb 19 12:04:42 PST 1996
Article: 34527 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!uniserve!news1.ottawa.istar.net!fonorola!news.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!torn!nott!bcarh189.bnr.ca!bcarh8ac.bnr.ca!ferret.ocunix.on.ca!resurrector
Message-ID: 
X-Reposted-By: clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.censorship,misc.legal
X-Original-Path: bcarh8ac.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: REPOST: Re: Interesting tag-team "censorship" spam/troll in soc.culture.* and alt.politics.*
X-Original-Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet2.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:  
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 16:14:53 GMT
Lines: 232
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:34527 alt.censorship:69125 misc.legal:11060

Dave the Resurrector REPOST:
========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
Control: cancel 
Newsgroups: misc.legal
Path: ...!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!freenet!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
Subject: cancel
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 16:35:50 GMT
Approved: news@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
Lines: 1

Article cancelled from nr
========= ORIGINAL POSTING =============


Rich Graves replies to me:

>> I am not a "neo-Nazi."

>That depends on your audience. 

I guess it does.  

Some people read and consider what I have to say.

Some, like you, believe that "label and divert" is a more effective
debating technique.  Label me something "bad," and hence divert the
discussion away from the real issues.

>You will quote chapter and verse from Dr. Pierce and Louis Beam, leaders
>of the proudly National Socialist National Alliance, but you will quote
>very different passages to different audiences. 

Number 1: Louis Beam is not a "leader of the National Alliance."  Louis
Beam is an independent white nationalist activist.

Number 2: Of course I am going to quote only relevant passages as
appropriate for the discussion.  I don't quote totally irrelevant material
when there's no reason to.  I do realize YOU try to introduce irrelevant
material in all your posts, but that's following in with your "label and
divert" technique. 

>> I have not been on USENET for "several years."

>The archives start with article <1993Oct31.190520.6284@msus1.msus.edu>
>dated 31 Oct 93 19:05:19 -0600. Presumably they had a reason to start
>archiving your posts. You appear to have dropped the HERMANN nym with
>article <1993Nov8.082137.6477@msus1.msus.edu>, or maybe a little before
>that.

For a programmer, you certainly have problems with math.

October 31, 1993 to today is...(surprise) less than 28 months.  Just under 2
1/3 years!  That is NOT "several years."

I have never abandoned my "Hermann" pseudonym, but I did start signing my
posts with my name regularly in November 1993.

>We will remember. You can't burn all the books.

What "books"?  And who said I'm going to burn them?

As for Mcvay's files, you are well aware, Mr. Graves, how easy it is to forge
and doctor someone's posts, and make one's opponent say exactly what you want
them to "say."

Electronic communication is really quite useless when trying to "prove"
someone expressed something.  Anyone with a text editor can doctor posts,
removing things, adding things, changing things, to distort and manipulate
what was originally expressed. 

Mcvay's archives about "neo-Nazis" are about as valuable as one hour of
Mcvay's wages at the gas station.

>> What's your point, Mr. Graves?

>I think most people found my point quite clear. I believe that you either
>are or are in coordination with the person who used the Hydra account
>exactly once for exactly one Usenet post, and that the purpose of the one
>post was to give you an opportunity to "respond" with your prepared
>propaganda piece, both on the Stormfront list (where you gave the messages
>the subject headings "Internet censorship #1 and #2") and in the
>newsgroups (where you got a bit carried away with your spamming). I find
>this behavior quite dishonest, even by your standards.

What you believe and what is reality are quite different, Mr. Graves.

I don't know who the Hydra poster is, and I don't really care who he is. 
His post asked legitimate questions in any case, and I replied to them.

You are a really desperate man, Mr. Graves.  You are clawing for dirt.

>> I found the Hydra post, and archived it until I could write an appropriate
>> response.  By the time I had the response prepared, the post had
>> "mysteriously" disappeared.  I posted my response as a "Re:" subject,
>> although it was an "original" thread since the Hydra post I could not
>> follow-up to for obvious reasons (if it was cancelled). 

>As the message timestamps and multiple separate crossposts show, you're
>clearly lying. 

The posts prove no such thing.  

>Moreover, the style of your prepared response was markedly different from
>the style of your usual posts.

The "style" of the response was no different from any of my other posts. 
You are seeing things where there are none.  You are hallucinating, Mr.
Graves.

>Did you get help from a proofreader?

Sure did!  His initials are MJK.  

I proof my posts whenever I have time to do so.

>> On another issue, perhaps you could tell us more about the fraudulent
>> posting to Stormfront this morning, Mr. Graves, using a forged bb748
>> header?  You wouldn't "happen to" know anything about it, would you? 

>I'm on the Stormfront list, and I read that message, and I read your
>rather prompt followup, in which you threatened:

>>From: ag264@detroit.freenet.org (Milton John Kleim)
>>Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 08:30:49 -0500
>>Subject: Forged submission to Stormfront

>> Someone is playing a little game.  The message appended below fraudulently
>> uses my name and NCF address.
 
>> I have an idea who the is perpetrator, but I will not name names.
>> Rather, "special measures" will now be considered.  Our subversive friend
>> apprently thinks he is immune to countermeasures.  We shall see.
 
>> Be aware of this problem, and act accordingly.

What "threat"?  I have not adovcated anything unlawful or otherwise
unethical in this post.

Do you have a problem with our taking appropriate measures to overcome
forgery of posts?

>It could have been any one of your little friends. They could have forged
>that message just to goad you, or you could have done it yourself as an
>excuse for attacking me.

"Attacking you"?  Where did I attack you?  My, Mr. Graves, you have a very
guilty conscience!

Are you admitting that you forged the post?

>What, exactly, did you mean by "special countermeasures"? 

Now that wouldn't be prudent to explain my defensive measures, would it?
If you are not the forger of my NCF post, then you have nothing to be
concerned about anyway, do you?

>Given that the Stormfront list owner, Don Black, served several years in
>the Federal Penitentiary for armed subversion...

The actual charge was unlawful interference in the internal affairs of a
foreign state.  

>..and given that the Crusader spammer/cracker/forger is known to be on the
>Stormfront list...

Unless YOU or your collaborators are the "Crusader," you could not know
this...

Which wouldn't surprise me.  You have the technical skills for it.  And
the motivation.

>...and given that the people on the Stormfront list generally consider
>Timothy McVeigh (bombed the Oklahoma Federal Building) and the members of
>The Order (robbed several banks, murdered a bunch of people) to be POWs in
>a race war...

This is a blatant lie, Mr. Graves.

There is certainly no consensus among Stormfronters that McVeigh committed
the act, and I know of no one on the list who considers him and Nichols to
be racial resistance "POWs." The whole assertion is imbecilic, anyway,
since Nichols is a "race-traitor" himself (married to a Filipina) and no
Stormfronter would ever consider as a comrade someone who freely
associated with other race-traitors (i.e. McVeigh and his friendship with
Nichols). 

Your desperation to paint an ugly picture of my comrades and I is
overwhelming.

>...and given that your usual .signature quotes Bob Matthews, a seriously
>wacko terrorist who held hundreds of Federal agents at bay until they
>finally said "Fuck it" and dropped a bomb on him...

Bob Mathews was no more a "serious wacko" than Randy Weaver, both of whom
asked to be left alone to live with his family in peace (of course their
wishes were not granted by the terrorists with badges).  The Federal
Secret Police murdered Mathews for resisting the criminal policies of the
government in the District of Corruption, and most readers are aware of
the murder of Vicki Weaver as she held her baby in her arms. 

And where in my "usual .sig" did I quote Mathews as advocating anything? 
He was endorsing an organization, not adovcating any actions.

>...I don't suppose I have any reason to be worried, do I? 

If you should be worried about anything, Mr. Graves, it would be your
mental health.

As you admit, I'm almost 2000 miles away from you, and it is ludicrous to
claim I present a danger to you.  And if you were truly afraid of someone
"paying you a visit," why do you openly reveal your alleged home address?

>By all means, please assume that I'm responsible for the forgery. Now if
>anything at all bad happens to me, you and the rest of the Stormfront
>wackos and convicted criminals are going to be actively investigated by
>the FBI and allied foreign (and private) agencies again.

I'm not going to lose any sleep...

I'm sure the Federal Bureau of Intimidation, the anti-American "Anti-
Defamation League" and the other "official" and quasi-government secret
police groups have all the information they wish on the Aryan resistance
already.   

>By the way, I failed to make a number of credit payments this month on
>purpose, just to establish a record you could use.

That's going to be a lot of interest payments, Mr. Graves.  Not a wise
financial move.

>If you plan on dropping by to see me personally, please call first to
>verify that I'm home. The number is 415-493-5009. 

I wouldn't ever want the displeasure of meeting you face-to-face.

>The other Graves in the phone book do not appreciate getting calls meant
>for me, and they don't want to have to pay extra for traces. 

Come now, Mr. Graves.  You're slipping.  There's no need of "traces"
anymore.  PacBell has a very dependible Caller ID.

>Go ahead, punk. 

Pot-kettle-black.



From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Mon Feb 19 12:04:43 PST 1996
Article: 34613 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.censorship,misc.legal
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: Re: Interesting tag-team "censorship" spam/troll in soc.culture.* and alt.politics.*
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet2.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:   
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 16:19:22 GMT
Lines: 232
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:34613 alt.censorship:69277 misc.legal:11107


Rich Graves replies to me:

>> I am not a "neo-Nazi."

>That depends on your audience. 

I guess it does.  

Some people actually read and consider what I have to say.

Some, like you, believe that "label and divert" is a more effective
debating technique.  Label me something "bad," and hence divert the
discussion away from the real issues.

>You will quote chapter and verse from Dr. Pierce and Louis Beam, leaders
>of the proudly National Socialist National Alliance, but you will quote
>very different passages to different audiences. 

Number 1: Louis Beam is not a "leader of the National Alliance."  Louis
Beam is an independent white nationalist activist.

Number 2: Of course I am going to quote only relevant passages as
appropriate for the discussion.  I don't quote totally irrelevant material
when there's no reason to.  I do realize YOU try to introduce irrelevant
material in all your posts, but that's following in with your "label and
divert" technique. 

>> I have not been on USENET for "several years."

>The archives start with article <1993Oct31.190520.6284@msus1.msus.edu>
>dated 31 Oct 93 19:05:19 -0600. Presumably they had a reason to start
>archiving your posts. You appear to have dropped the HERMANN nym with
>article <1993Nov8.082137.6477@msus1.msus.edu>, or maybe a little before
>that.

For a programmer, you certainly have problems with math.

October 31, 1993 to today is...(surprise) less than 28 months.  Just under 2
1/3 years!  That is NOT "several years."

I have never abandoned my "Hermann" pseudonym, but I did start signing my
posts with my name regularly in November 1993.

>We will remember. You can't burn all the books.

What "books"?  And who said I'm going to burn them?

As for Mcvay's files, you are well aware, Mr. Graves, how easy it is to forge
and doctor someone's posts, and make one's opponent say exactly what you want
them to "say."

Electronic communication is really quite useless when trying to "prove"
someone expressed something.  Anyone with a text editor can doctor posts,
removing things, adding things, changing things, to distort and manipulate
what was originally expressed. 

Mcvay's archives about "neo-Nazis" are about as valuable as one hour of
Mcvay's wages at the gas station.

>> What's your point, Mr. Graves?

>I think most people found my point quite clear. I believe that you either
>are or are in coordination with the person who used the Hydra account
>exactly once for exactly one Usenet post, and that the purpose of the one
>post was to give you an opportunity to "respond" with your prepared
>propaganda piece, both on the Stormfront list (where you gave the messages
>the subject headings "Internet censorship #1 and #2") and in the
>newsgroups (where you got a bit carried away with your spamming). I find
>this behavior quite dishonest, even by your standards.

What you believe and what is reality are quite different, Mr. Graves.

I don't know who the Hydra poster is, and I don't really care who he is. 
His post asked legitimate questions in any case, and I replied to them.

You are a really desperate man, Mr. Graves.  You are clawing for dirt.

>> I found the Hydra post, and archived it until I could write an appropriate
>> response.  By the time I had the response prepared, the post had
>> "mysteriously" disappeared.  I posted my response as a "Re:" subject,
>> although it was an "original" thread since the Hydra post I could not
>> follow-up to for obvious reasons (if it was cancelled). 

>As the message timestamps and multiple separate crossposts show, you're
>clearly lying. 

The posts prove no such thing.  

>Moreover, the style of your prepared response was markedly different from
>the style of your usual posts.

The "style" of the response was no different from any of my other posts. 
You are seeing things where there are none.  You are hallucinating, Mr.
Graves.

>Did you get help from a proofreader?

Sure did!  His initials are MJK.  

I proof my posts whenever I have time to do so.

>> On another issue, perhaps you could tell us more about the fraudulent
>> posting to Stormfront this morning, Mr. Graves, using a forged bb748
>> header?  You wouldn't "happen to" know anything about it, would you? 

>I'm on the Stormfront list, and I read that message, and I read your
>rather prompt followup, in which you threatened:

>>From: ag264@detroit.freenet.org (Milton John Kleim)
>>Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 08:30:49 -0500
>>Subject: Forged submission to Stormfront

>> Someone is playing a little game.  The message appended below fraudulently
>> uses my name and NCF address.
 
>> I have an idea who the is perpetrator, but I will not name names.
>> Rather, "special measures" will now be considered.  Our subversive friend
>> apprently thinks he is immune to countermeasures.  We shall see.
 
>> Be aware of this problem, and act accordingly.

What "threat"?  I have not adovcated anything unlawful or otherwise
unethical in this post.

Do you have a problem with our taking appropriate measures to overcome
forgery of posts?

>It could have been any one of your little friends. They could have forged
>that message just to goad you, or you could have done it yourself as an
>excuse for attacking me.

"Attacking you"?  Where did I attack you?  My, Mr. Graves, you have a very
guilty conscience!

Are you admitting that you forged the post?

>What, exactly, did you mean by "special countermeasures"? 

Now that wouldn't be prudent to explain my defensive measures, would it?
If you are not the forger of my NCF post, then you have nothing to be
concerned about anyway, do you?

>Given that the Stormfront list owner, Don Black, served several years in
>the Federal Penitentiary for armed subversion...

The actual charge was unlawful interference in the internal affairs of a
foreign state.  

>..and given that the Crusader spammer/cracker/forger is known to be on the
>Stormfront list...

Unless YOU or your collaborators are the "Crusader," you could not know
this...

Which wouldn't surprise me.  You have the technical skills for it.  And
the motivation.

>...and given that the people on the Stormfront list generally consider
>Timothy McVeigh (bombed the Oklahoma Federal Building) and the members of
>The Order (robbed several banks, murdered a bunch of people) to be POWs in
>a race war...

This is a blatant lie, Mr. Graves.

There is certainly no consensus among Stormfronters that McVeigh committed
the act, and I know of no one on the list who considers him and Nichols to
be racial resistance "POWs." The whole assertion is imbecilic, anyway,
since Nichols is a "race-traitor" himself (married to a Filipina) and no
Stormfronter would ever consider as a comrade someone who freely
associated with other race-traitors (i.e. McVeigh and his friendship with
Nichols). 

Your desperation to paint an ugly picture of my comrades and I is
overwhelming.

>...and given that your usual .signature quotes Bob Matthews, a seriously
>wacko terrorist who held hundreds of Federal agents at bay until they
>finally said "Fuck it" and dropped a bomb on him...

Bob Mathews was no more a "serious wacko" than Randy Weaver, both of whom
asked to be left alone to live with his family in peace (of course their
wishes were not granted by the terrorists with badges).  The Federal
Secret Police murdered Mathews for resisting the criminal policies of the
government in the District of Corruption, and most readers are aware of
the murder of Vicki Weaver as she held her baby in her arms. 

And where in my "usual .sig" did I quote Mathews as advocating anything? 
He was endorsing an organization, not adovcating any actions.

>...I don't suppose I have any reason to be worried, do I? 

If you should be worried about anything, Mr. Graves, it would be your
mental health.

As you admit, I'm almost 2000 miles away from you, and it is ludicrous to
claim I present a danger to you.  And if you were truly afraid of someone
"paying you a visit," why do you openly reveal your alleged home address?

>By all means, please assume that I'm responsible for the forgery. Now if
>anything at all bad happens to me, you and the rest of the Stormfront
>wackos and convicted criminals are going to be actively investigated by
>the FBI and allied foreign (and private) agencies again.

I'm not going to lose any sleep...

I'm sure the Federal Bureau of Intimidation, the anti-American "Anti-
Defamation League" and the other "official" and quasi-government secret
police groups have all the information they wish on the Aryan resistance
already.   

>By the way, I failed to make a number of credit payments this month on
>purpose, just to establish a record you could use.

That's going to be a lot of interest payments, Mr. Graves.  Not a wise
financial move.

>If you plan on dropping by to see me personally, please call first to
>verify that I'm home. The number is 415-493-5009. 

I wouldn't ever want the displeasure of meeting you face-to-face.

>The other Graves in the phone book do not appreciate getting calls meant
>for me, and they don't want to have to pay extra for traces. 

Come now, Mr. Graves.  You're slipping.  There's no need of "traces"
anymore.  PacBell has a very dependible Caller ID.

>Go ahead, punk. 

Pot-kettle-black.



From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Thu Feb 22 12:12:58 PST 1996
Article: 24501 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: ADL Report: "Hate Group Recruitment on the Internet"
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 02:49:59 GMT
Lines: 386
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:14203 alt.politics.white-power:19464 alt.revisionism:24501 alt.skinheads:12616


HATE GROUP RECRUITMENT ON THE INTERNET

By the Staff of the Anti-Defamation League


Introduction

      Neo-Nazis and other anti-Semites and racists are using the Internet
to recruit new members, get their message out, and open new channels of
communication among sympathizers.  One young neo-Nazi supporter in Minne-
sota, in fact, has recently become a self-appointed, virtual one-man
recruiting engine for several hate groups. 

      The Internet, a worldwide collection of computers linked by high-
speed phone lines, is a central feature of the information revolution of
our time.  Driven by the growth of the World Wide Web (a method of linking
information on computers anywhere in the world) and the development of
easy-to-use "web-browser" programs (that simplify access to information
on these computers), Internet use is expanding rapidly.  In the United
States and Canada, approximately 37 million people, or 17 percent of the
population 16 years or older, have access to the Net.  About 24 million of
this group have used the Net in the past three months.  And this is just
the beginning; usage continues to expand and the number of Web sites (the
computer locations where information providers store their material) is
currently doubling every three months.  Clearly, the Internet is the "in"
place for communicating personal, political and profit-making messages. 
Businesses frantically look for opportunities on the Net, while magazine
covers proclaim the rush to "cybergold"; the stock market is bullish on
Internet-related companies.  Not surprisingly the opportunity to reach so
many people, so easily, so inexpensively, is attracting neo-Nazis and
other bigots, in addition to ordinary people. 

      Many extremist groups are on the Web; the neo-Nazi National Alliance
and a covey of supporters, racist Skinhead purveyors of "Aryan" music,
some rabidly anti-Semitic "Identity" churches, groups sympathetic to the
KKK and several Holocaust deniers have sites.  These efforts represent a
well-thought-out campaign to reach more people than these groups could
ever have previously contacted though traditional mailings, handouts and
demonstrations.  The World Wide Web, the newest Internet technology, is an
ideal merchandising tool. 

An Attractive Medium

      The typical Web site is colorful; black, red and white are very pop-
ular on the neo-Nazi sites.  Filled with pictures or symbols, handsome
typography and, occasionally, sound, these sites are perfect for present-
ing a propaganda message. The interactive features of the Web permit
immediate responses and so on-line membership forms are found at several
"hate" sites, making it even easier to order material or join. 

      Ease of use is a major selling point for the Web.  Once a user gets
to a Web site, moving around in "cyberspace" becomes relatively uncompli-
cated, but finding a particular site isn't always simple. The National
Alliance is aware of this. Its July 1995 Bulletin, mailed, the old-
fashioned way, to members, encouraged "the Alliance's seasoned cyber-
nauts" to "spread our new [Web] site address around as widely as pos-
sible....  Imaginative and energetic members should be able to think of
many novel ways to provoke other Internet users to go to our new site and
examine our materials."  Several devoted followers, taking this to heart,
have hit upon a device that they hope will spread the group's propaganda
but also lead sympathizers to the Web sites of the National Alliance and
similar groups.  They have decided to exploit the USENET. 

      The USENET, or newsgroups, refers to the collection of thousands of
computerized "chat" sites where users express ideas, argue and, often,
exchange insults.  Anyone with a computer and Internet access can "join" 
one or more of these.  A newsgroup is usually devoted to a single topic,
some serious, such as talk.politics.mideast and others, less serious, such
as rec.art.comics.  The neo-Nazis have several newsgroups where they, and
their opponents, go at each other.  Some of these haters have argued that
they will never recruit new members on the traditional on-line racist
haunts such as alt.politics.white-power where the participants have
already chosen sides. It is time, they say, to search for new members. To
do this, they are developing a new tactic designed to direct people to
sites such as the National Alliance. 

An Innovative Propagandist

      Milton John Kleim, Jr., self-described "Net Nazi Number One," 
thinks he has a method that might work.  Kleim, a recent graduate of St.
Cloud State University in Minnesota who likes to write earnest sounding
tomes that read like class papers, tries to project an image of a
rational, scrubbed and shined, eager young activist.  Precisely where, if
anyplace, he fits in the organization of the National Alliance is hard to
tell; he admits that his only contacts have been via computer.  Kleim
likes to flaunt his ubiquitous presence on the Net.  In a letter he wrote
to George Hawthorne's <1> Skinhead magazine, Resistance, he signed himself
as the "Internet's infamous 'HERMANN."' Kleim floods the newsgroups with
messages attacking Jews, "Jewsmedia" and non-whites, openly calling for
authoritarian government and expressing admiration for William Pierce,<2>
leader of the neo-Hitlerian National Alliance. 

      Kleim details his proposal for extremist use of the Internet in an
article "On Tactics and Strategy for USENET" that can be found on several
neo-Nazi Web sites.  The strategy is appropriate for someone with his
views; it is one of guileful misrepresentation.  He urges "cyber
guerillas" to leave the safety of racist newsgroups and pick a likely
mainstream newsgroup and post there.  Once established, the recruiter
should tailor messages to the interest of the group.  If the group is
concerned with foods he suggests the writer push the "kosher tax" message
charging that kosher food supervision costs consumers money. <3>  Groups
focused on political or social issues would be suitable for the "Jewish-
controlled media" message.  Above all, he writes: 

      "Continually advertise our World Wide Web .  .  . resources and all
suitable newsgroups.  Systematically post the address for the [National]
Alliance Website and [other extremist] Website[s].... 

      "Except on "our" groups avoid the Race Issue.  Side-step it as much as
possible.  We don't have time to defend our stance on this issue against
the comments of hundreds of fools, liars, and degenerates who, spouting
the Jewish line, will slaughter our message with half-truths, slander, and
the ever-used sophistry. 

     "If a newbie [new user] or a lurker who [reads, and does not usually
write] seems sincere inquires about racial science, deal with them ONLY
via e-mail....  Avoid non-productive debates with enemy activists. 

     "Remember; our overall USENET strategy must be to repeat powerful
themes OVER AND OVER AND OVER." 

      Wyatt Kaldenberg, who uses the Net to promote Tom Metzger's White
Aryan Resistance (WAR) group and who broke Geraldo Rivera's nose on
national TV, has a similar approach.  He typically expresses these ideas
with pugnacious, "in your face" hostility.  His barely contained rage is
clear as he calls for extremists to descend on newsgroups en-masse: 

      "This ought to be our new tactic.  Instead of hanging around the four
racist newsgroups we can hit newsgroups as a mob.  We cannot win when we
are outnumbers [sic] by Jews but if we go in as a group we can win with
the average Joe SIX [sic] Pack.... Post facts about black crime. Give them
your update numbers.  Web site addresses.  Push books.  Newspaper." [sic]

Exploiting Another Racial Issue

      Ordinary Internet users might not suspect that the alt.fan.
oj-simpson newsgroup would be a place to find neo-Nazis but, sensing the
racial tensions generated by the Simpson case, the extremists flocked
there, making this newsgroup a case study in the use of this technique. 
An examination of the postings to the alt.fan.oj-simpson group shows that
some familiar neo-Nazis were indeed trolling the Internet for new
recruits: Kleim, Kaldenberg, George Hawthorne of Resistance Records, which
spreads the neo-Nazi Skinhead message through music, and some others took
the offensive.  In a variety of voices, ranging from relatively moderate
to provocatively obscene and scatological, each declared that white people
are now victims and should not take it anymore.  Many closed their
messages with an advertisement for the World Wide Web addresses of the
National Alliance and various other white supremacist sites (Hawthorne
also pushed the site on which he peddles his records).  One self-identified
Christian Identity "minister," Ronald C. Schoedel III, typed an elaborate
"sig" (or signature message) complete with neo-Nazi slogans and a large,
painstakingly typed graphic of a cross with the words "Hail Victory" or
"Sieg Heil" superimposed on the cross. 

      Obviously, these activists believe that there is an enormous
potential audience for their virulent anti-black and anti-Semitic
messages.  Kaldenberg is certain of it.  In one posting he crowed, "I have
gotten over 100 email [sic] in 36 hours because of my posting.  I posted
the Aryan Update number there and it has been ringing off the hook." 

      Kleim also believes that the Net is the way to recruit. "There are
millions of people who agree with us," he told _.net_, a mainstream,
Internet-oriented magazine printed in England which did a piece on
Internet extremists.  "[They] feel isolated and helpless because they
don't know who to contact to network with others who feel similarly....
USENET, in combination with the Web, offers an unparalleled opportunity
for our Movement to get our views and, more importantly, our facts across
to the general public. <4>

Conclusion

       The USENET is gigantic: there are thousands of newsgroups with an
enormous total readership.  Its size and easy access almost inevitably
would attract Kleim, Kaldenberg, White Aryan Resistance leader Tom Metzger
and a cadre of others determined to spread their message of hate, anger
and resentment.  It is clear they are eager to proselytize and the Net is
an attractive platform.  How successful they will be is less clear. 

      The Web sites can record the number of people who access the home
page but outsiders cannot.  Even counting the number of "hits," or
contacts, made with the site would not provide the number of new members
that each site generates.  The relatively low cost of maintaining a Web
page makes it possible to "show the flag" even if the harvest of new
members is low. 

      There is no doubt that the neo-Nazis have used the Internet to stir
racial antagonism.  Yet, these white-nationalist postings have also
generated a vociferous backlash.  Anti-racists, anti-fascists and
"ordinary" people posted many replies, some equally strident, on the
alt.fan.oj-simpson group.  So even if they did not recruit many new
followers, the National Alliance and its supporters managed to stir up
racially polarizing rhetoric. 

      Again, it is too soon to tell if this recruitment strategy will
work.  What we do know is that the neo-Nazis and their fellow-travelers
have decided that the action is on the Internet.  The haters realize they
can leave their traditional hangouts and set up temporary recruiting posts
anywhere on the Net, try to pick up new recruits and stir up even more
hatred and distrust. 

      The message is clear: The Internet is an important new communica-
tions tool used equally by the good and the ugly.  It must be continuously
monitored as another means of countering messages of hate with information
that exposes bigotry and promotes tolerance and decency. 


APPENDIX

Selected Examples of Extremist Recruitment and Hate Messages on the
Internet

1. Milton John Kleim, Jr.

    A.  From "On Tactics and Strategy for USENET" by Milton John Kleim, Jr.: 

USENET offers enormous opportunity for the Aryan Resistance to disseminate
our message to the unaware and the ignorant. It is the only relatively
uncensored (so far) free-forum mass medium which we have available. The
State cannot yet stop us from "advertising" our ideas and organizations on
USENET... NOW is the time to grasp the WEAPON which is the Net, and wield
it skillfully and wisely while you may still do so freely. 

Crucial to our USENET campaign is that our message is disseminated beyond
"our" group... 

We MUST move out beyond our present domain, and take up positions on
"mainstream" groups... 

Find groups that require "tailored" messages:  ...  groups concerning
politics and society would be suitable for our message about the
Jewish-controlled media. 

Tailor your messages for each group.  Our ideology has myriad facets, and
the well-informed activist can extract something to fit onto just about
every group. 

WARNING: Be aware that EVERYTHING you post will be seen by the Enemy.  All
of your posts may be catalogued and archived for future use by the Enemy,
either by self-appointed "Net police"... or by lurkers from the so-called
"Anti-Defamation League" and the "Simon Wiesenthal Center." 

DO NOT EVER post a message that advocates or supports an illegal act or
activity.  Be assured that any message you post that even hints of direct
action will be archived!  If you explicitly advocate illegality, such an
expression will surely be used against you, possibly immediately, by the
Secret Police.  The First Amendment still guarantees a wide variety of
political expression, and explicit advocacy of unlawful behavior is NOT
necessary.  If your understandable anger builds to a point where you must
say SOMETHING, express your feelings by quoting the fourth clause of the
Declaration of Independence and the ninth article of the Bill of Rights. 

Except on "our" groups, avoid the Race Issue.  Side-step it as much as
possible.  We don't have the time to defend our stance on this issue
against the comments of hundreds of fools, liars, and degenerates who,
spouting the Jewish line, will slaughter our message with half-truths,
slander, and the ever-used sophistry. 

Avoid engaging in non-productive debates with enemy activists.  It is often
difficult to distinguish between the Enemy's dedicated lackeys, and the
misguided who are merely parroting what the Jewsmedia has taught them. 

Remember:  our overall USENET strategy must be to repeat powerful themes
OVER AND OVER AND OVER. We cannot compete with the Jewsmedia, of course,
as our propaganda dissemination is but a very small fraction of the
everywhere pervasive Zionist propaganda. However, our ideas possess an
energy that truth alone contains.  Our ideas, when matched one to one with
the chimera of the Jews, overwhelm theirs with ease, because OURS ARE IN
SYNC WITH REALITY.  One well-written message containing our ideas has much
greater "bang for the buck." 

Remember: SUSTAINED, electronic "guerilla warfare," "hit and run" style,
using short, "self-contained" posts is a major component of our struggle.
Put your Net access to good use, today and EVERY day! 

     B.  Yesterday, the world witnessed a great act of courage, an act of
courage by a brave young man with a bright future.  Twenty-seven-year-old
Yigal Amir, an Israeli law student, recognized the dilemma facing his
People, accepted his racial duty, and blew away a traitor to the Jewish
People and the Jewish State.  Amir put aside his "happiness," his egotism,
his love of self, and PUT HIS PEOPLE FIRST... 

Are Jews more brave than Aryans?


2. Wyatt Kaldenberg

     A.  Join the White Working Class revolution!  Write the White Aryan
Resistance... or call the Aryan Update... for a radical pro-White phone
message. 

American Capitalism is falling apart. National Socialism is our only 
hope! 

     B.  Subject:  Re: WHITE POWER WEB SITES GREAT MUSIC, GRAPHICS, AND
ARTICLES ! 

George Hawthorne wrote:

CHECK OUT STORMFRONT, a fantastic White Nationalist site with amazing
graphics, articles, and up-to-date news... 

CHECK OUT RESISTANCE RECORDS, the world's only Pro-White Web Site,
complete with music clips, graphics, and pictures... 

CALL THE WHITE ARYAN RESISTANCE, toll free, for a message on the OJ
verdict: 

WAKE UP, WHITE AMERICA ! ! ! ! ! ! 

     C. Kaldenberg also features a page with a computerized likeness of
Hitler, superimposed on a swastika. 

     D. Subject: Cells of Three

The new way of posting on the newsgroups is to stay away from the four
racist newsgroups. 

The only people who post there are racist and anti-racists, No new blood. 
It is a waste of our time to sing to the choir.  The Jews are watching
this list.  So what we say is put in FTP sites.  People should E-mail one
another and talk privately about newsgroup you wish to hit.  Get only
three people.  And hit a newsgroup. With three people you lessen the
chance up [sic] posting with a Jew.  I have created titles in some
newsgroups that have lived for months and months.  It [sic] funny. 
Liberals post attacks on my titles that will say something like Niggers,
Niggers and I have not been there in months, but because of the liberal
reply to my titles, not my posts for they are long gone, the Nigger titles
are still there.  Then Niggers see the titles and say something like fuck
all you White motherfuckers, then a liberal will say "But all Whites
don't hate blacks, etc." And the nigger title keeps go and go and go like
that pink rabbit. It is a hoot!... 

My carrier has over 15,000 newsgroups.  Let's try to hit everyone at least
once.  This is how we will build the movement.  And make your titles
radical as hell.  Your posts will be gone in a few weeks, but a good
radical titles [sic] could stay on for months, if not years. 

     E.  Following a colloquy about the relative merits of several hate
groups and extremist publications [note: this is wrongly attributed to 
Kaldenberg.  It was written by Kleim -- Ed.]: 

I have been involved with the movement since 1988. Over the past 7 years I
have surveyed EVERY group and organization which I could contact . . . I
avoided associating too close with any organization until this year. 

That is the National Alliance.

If we have any chance of securing the biological and cultural heritage of
our kind, then the Alliance is the BEST chance we have.  It is time for
people to cease their despicable hobbyism of joining a variety of "white
nationalist organizations,"  and decide to support the undeniable leader
in North America, it not the world.  We will get nowhere by spreading our
VERY, VERY limited resources to organizations that are of little or no use
to our people. 


3. From a posting citing the National Alliance website:

For a catalog of over 300 patriotic books, tapes, and videos -- many of them
available nowhere else, because of government and media censorship, send
$2 to National Vanguard Books. 

R. Logsdon then replies and comments:

National Vanguard pays a moderate sum of money to maintain a web site with
two and a half megs of data, for free, because they believe in what they
are doing.  They are not in it for the money.  Do our money-grubbing pals in
the ADL have a web site?  No, of course not.  How could they fly to Israel
every month if they wasted their filthy money to combat racism on the net. 


Footnotes:

1. See ADL Report, "The Skinhead International: A Worldwide Survey of 
   Neo-Nazi Skinheads," (1995), p 21.  Hawthorne's real name is George 
   Burdi.

2. See ADL Research Report, "William L. Pierce: Novelist of Hate" (1995).

3. See  ADL  Special  Edition, "The 'Kosher Tax' Hoax" (January 1991).

4. Crawford Kilian. "The Virtual Reich,' (October 1995), p. 47.  Kleim 
   himself posted this version of the article on the alt.revisionism 
   USENET newsgroup on Sunday, October 22, 1995.



From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Thu Feb 22 12:12:59 PST 1996
Article: 24514 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
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From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: "Nazis" and National Socialists
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 04:41:20 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:14210 alt.politics.white-power:19476 alt.revisionism:24514 alt.skinheads:12632

"Nazis" and National Socialists


  What is a "Nazi?" 

  That's a good question.  There's alot of wisdom in the maxim, "WHAT is a 
'Nazi?'  It's someone who is winning an argument with a 'liberal'."

   Essentially, the term has no definitive meaning.  It's a plastic cliche
of no factual substance, applied to an opponent to divert discussion and
debate into the emotional, impulsive arena, out of the realm of rational,
meaningful dialogue. 

   "Nazi" is a pejorative invented by the opposition of the German
National Socialists.  It was never used by Hitler or any other National
Socialist statesman.  It is no more legitimate and accurate to use "Nazi"
to describe a National Socialist, than it is to use "Christ killer" to
accurately describe a Jew, or to use "rag head" to accurately describe an
East Indian. 
 
   The illiberal "liberals" vocally decry dehumanization and objectifi-
cation of human beings, but it is they who most often fail to practice
what they preach. 

   The illiberal "liberals" prefer to deal with caricatures, rather than 
people, for caricatures are easier to confront.  Caricatures don't need to 
be debated.

   The illiberal "liberals" refrain from substantive discussion with those
they objectify mainly for two reasons: fear and sloth.  They fear that
cherished leftist concepts and myths will be debunked via genuine debate. 
Since most "liberals" lack self-discipline (an earthly extension of their
philosophy), sustained substantive debate is a pursuit they'd rather not
engage in, regardless of the stakes -- it's just too much work. 
Dishonest, distorted caricatures generated by Hollywood serve to shield
the illiberal "liberal" from the need to construct an intelligent argument
based on _factual_ data. 

   The illiberal "liberal" would like to pretend that "Nazis" deserve 
special abuse.  We all know they're BAD, and we don't need to consider their
arguments or their humanity....

   But never mind the fact that the illiberal "liberal" reviles the use of
the term "Commie" applied to a Marxist -- even though _communists_, and
not "Nazis," are responsible for the greatest mass murders of history. 
Don't mind the fact the illiberal "liberal" would never even _think_ of
using the racial epithet "vicious niggers" to describe Black Africans who
perform clitorectomy on little girls and enslave their neighbors even
today.  Never mind that the illiberal "liberal" is incensed when the term
"Jap" is used to describe the originators of the Bataan Death March.

   When I am asked, "are you a Nazi?," I will continue to say "no," and 
it will be an earnest reply.

   However, if I am asked, "are you a National Socialist?," the answer
must be, because I believe in the body of philosophy which endeavors to
apply all the immutable laws of the natural Order to human affairs and
promotes a truly progressive social order: "yes." 

   If asked, "are you a racist?," the answer must be, because I recognize 
the unique qualities, shortcomings, and needs of each human race, and 
incorporate these realities into my world-view: "yes."

   If asked, "do you admire Adolf Hitler?," the answer must be, because I
acknowledge the triumphs and struggles of the most notable figure of the
20th Century, the greatest German statesman, who, in the Rousseauian
tradition, represented the Will of his People, and directed the miraculous
transformation of a broken society into the most progressive and advanced
Nation of its time: "yes!" 

-- Milton John Kleim, Jr.




From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Thu Feb 22 16:11:29 PST 1996
Article: 333095 of talk.politics.misc
Newsgroups: alt.politics.correct,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.politics.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: "Nazis" and National Socialists
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 04:54:56 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.correct:83172 talk.philosophy.misc:31535 talk.politics.misc:333095

"Nazis" and National Socialists


  What is a "Nazi?" 

  That's a good question.  There's alot of wisdom in the maxim, "WHAT is a 
'Nazi?'  It's someone who is winning an argument with a 'liberal'."

   Essentially, the term has no definitive meaning.  It's a plastic cliche
of no factual substance, applied to an opponent to divert discussion and
debate into the emotional, impulsive arena, out of the realm of rational,
meaningful dialogue. 

   "Nazi" is a pejorative invented by the opposition of the German
National Socialists.  It was never used by Hitler or any other National
Socialist statesman.  It is no more legitimate and accurate to use "Nazi"
to describe a National Socialist, than it is to use "Christ killer" to
accurately describe a Jew, or to use "rag head" to accurately describe an
East Indian. 
 
   The illiberal "liberals" vocally decry dehumanization and objectifi-
cation of human beings, but it is they who most often fail to practice
what they preach. 

   The illiberal "liberals" prefer to deal with caricatures, rather than 
people, for caricatures are easier to confront.  Caricatures don't need to 
be debated.

   The illiberal "liberals" refrain from substantive discussion with those
they objectify mainly for two reasons: fear and sloth.  They fear that
cherished leftist concepts and myths will be debunked via genuine debate. 
Since most "liberals" lack self-discipline (an earthly extension of their
philosophy), sustained substantive debate is a pursuit they'd rather not
engage in, regardless of the stakes -- it's just too much work. 
Dishonest, distorted caricatures generated by Hollywood serve to shield
the illiberal "liberal" from the need to construct an intelligent argument
based on _factual_ data. 

   The illiberal "liberal" would like to pretend that "Nazis" deserve 
special abuse.  We all know they're BAD, and we don't need to consider their
arguments or their humanity....

   But never mind the fact that the illiberal "liberal" reviles the use of
the term "Commie" applied to a Marxist -- even though _communists_, and
not "Nazis," are responsible for the greatest mass murders of history. 
Don't mind the fact the illiberal "liberal" would never even _think_ of
using the racial epithet "vicious niggers" to describe Black Africans who
perform clitorectomy on little girls and enslave their neighbors even
today.  Never mind that the illiberal "liberal" is incensed when the term
"Jap" is used to describe the originators of the Bataan Death March.

   When I am asked, "are you a Nazi?," I will continue to say "no," and 
it will be an earnest reply.

   However, if I am asked, "are you a National Socialist?," the answer
must be, because I believe in the body of philosophy which endeavors to
apply all the immutable laws of the natural Order to human affairs and
promotes a truly progressive social order: "yes." 

   If asked, "are you a racist?," the answer must be, because I recognize 
the unique qualities, shortcomings, and needs of each human race, and 
incorporate these realities into my world-view: "yes."

   If asked, "do you admire Adolf Hitler?," the answer must be, because I
acknowledge the triumphs and struggles of the most notable figure of the
20th Century, the greatest German statesman, who, in the Rousseauian
tradition, represented the Will of his People, and directed the miraculous
transformation of a broken society into the most progressive and advanced
Nation of its time: "yes!" 

-- Milton John Kleim, Jr.



From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Fri Feb 23 07:12:00 PST 1996
Article: 24690 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: Re: "Nazis" and National Socialists
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:  <312CB746.56EF@scott.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 13:26:43 GMT
Lines: 7
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:14298 alt.politics.white-power:19654 alt.revisionism:24690

evil Beavis (stefan@scott.net) writes:

> Yes, and germany was a beautiful place to be in the spring of 1945 - all 
> thanks to the benevolent Adolf Hitler...

And I suppose you think Hirohito nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, too.



From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Fri Feb 23 07:12:01 PST 1996
Article: 24699 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bb748
From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: Re: "Nazis" and National Socialists
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:  
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 13:49:13 GMT
Lines: 103
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:14301 alt.politics.white-power:19660 alt.revisionism:24699

Sara aka Perrrfect [sic] writes:

>>   What is a "Nazi?" 
 
>>   That's a good question.  There's alot of wisdom in the maxim, "WHAT is a 
>> 'Nazi?'  It's someone who is winning an argument with a 'liberal'."
 
> "What is a Nazi" is a QUESTION, not a maxim. That's why it neds with a
> QUESTION MARK.

Since you believe everything your dictionary says, you better look up
"maxim."  The question is _part_ of the statement, not the maxim itself.

> "Nazi. noun. 1. A member of the National Socialist German Workers Party,
> founded in Germany in 1919 and brought to power in 1939 under Adolf
> Hitler. 2. Often nazi. An ahderent or advocate of policies characteristic
> of Nazism; fascist." (American Heritage Dictionary, Second Edition)

>>    Essentially, the term has no definitive meaning. 

> Your opinion versus the American Heritgae Dictionary. They had no trouble
> defining it.

My statement of fact versus the opinion of the Jews at Houghton Mifflin. 
We have a right to describe ourselves as we wish.

> Therefore you decry the use of words like Christ-killer and rag head,
> right? 

On the contrary, the question is, as a "liberal" yourself, do YOU decry
them?  And if so, why do you have a double standard, addressing racial
allies as they wish, but not political opponents?

>>    The illiberal "liberals" vocally decry dehumanization and objectifi-
>> cation of human beings, but it is they who most often fail to practice
>> what they preach. 
 
> And your proof is...?

By their selective use of self-descriptors for "favored" groups, and
pejoratives for "unfavored" groups.

>>    The illiberal "liberals" prefer to deal with caricatures, rather than 
>> people, for caricatures are easier to confront.  Caricatures don't need to 
>> be debated.
 
> The source of this accusation is...?

9 out of 10 "debates" between "liberals" and their opponents.

>>    The illiberal "liberals" refrain from substantive discussion with those
>> they objectify mainly for two reasons: fear and sloth.  They fear that
>> cherished leftist concepts and myths will be debunked via genuine debate. 
>> Since most "liberals" lack self-discipline (an earthly extension of their
>> philosophy), sustained substantive debate is a pursuit they'd rather not
>> engage in, regardless of the stakes -- it's just too much work. 
>> Dishonest, distorted caricatures generated by Hollywood serve to shield
>> the illiberal "liberal" from the need to construct an intelligent argument
>> based on _factual_ data. 
 
> This is not a good place to post a paragraph like this. What the hell do
> you think we are DOING here? We're HERE for substantive discussion, unlike
> Mr. Kleim, who hasn't done anything but accuse, and manufacture lies.

We're _supposed to be_ here for substantive discussion.  But 9 out of 10
indidivdual discussions don't involve anything but invective and lies and
myths absorbed from the television.

>>    If asked, "do you admire Adolf Hitler?," the answer must be, because I
>> acknowledge the triumphs and struggles of the most notable figure of the
>> 20th Century, the greatest German statesman, who, in the Rousseauian
>> tradition, represented the Will of his People, and directed the miraculous
>> transformation of a broken society into the most progressive and advanced
>> Nation of its time: "yes!" 
 
> Well that about says it all, folks. 
 
> Most notable figure of the 20th Century.

Name another.  Love him or hate him, Hitler is the premiere figure of the
20th Century.  Jews can thank him for selling more of their movies, books,
and tapes than any other historical figure besides Jesus. 

> Greatest German statesman.

Who else could hold that title?

> A Rousseauian?

Certainly.  Hitler was the greatest populist of all time, because he
embodied the German general will.

> Represented the Will of his People? How many people actually VOTED
> National Socialist, Mr. Kleim?

I don't know the actual numbers, but the percentages were in the 85% - 95%
range in four referenda.
  
> Transformed his country? You betcha. Just look at the photos of Berlin in
> 1945. He did a GREAT job of transforming it, didn't he?

And I supppose you believe Hirohito nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, too?



From mjk@efn.org Mon Feb 26 11:05:16 PST 1996
Article: 14539 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: "Milton John Kleim, Jr" 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Buchanan and the Aryan activist
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:04:22 -0800
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:14539 alt.politics.white-power:20024

BUCHANAN AND THE ARYAN ACTIVIST


The success of Pat Buchanan in catapulting himself onto Campaign '96's
center stage presents great temptation for many of us.  Yearning for an
Establishment political leader who represents many of our desires and
offers potential relief for the hardships visited upon our Nation by the
"New World Order," alot of Aryan activists perceive Buchanan as a
forgivably flawed savior, someone deserving of support in his struggle
with internationalist, staunchly "politically correct" willing minions of
the Jews.

Pat Buchanan may be a sincere man, longing for an America with happy
families, safe streets, good jobs, and most of the things we long for as
well, and seek to regain for our country, too.  He may very well be
denouncing "racism" and "racists" as an unavoidable expedient tactic for
"mainstream" political viability

However, Pat Buchanan comes up short on the most fundamental issue, the
"master key to history," as it's been rightly called.  That issue is of
course the Race issue.  Buchanan is above all a _socio-economic_ conserv-
ative and not a racial conservative.  He may hold views -- privately --
comparable to our own about preference for fellow Whites, but there is no
evidence to indicate he is either conscious of the overwhelming primacy of
human biology in human affairs -- history, politics, indeed all culture --
or is willing to act in accordance with this reality even if he is aware. 

In the unlikelihood Buchanan overcomes Dole and Alexander, earns the
Republican nomination, and then defeats Commissar General Clinton, his
victory could have disastrous effects upon our Cause.  Pat Buchanan
advocates _half-measures_, not the full, comprehensive measures our
civilization desperately needs.  He offers band-aids when strong
antibiotics are necessary to sustain life.  His temporary remedies to the
human biology-based problems we face would mask the actual roots of social
disharmonics and decadence.  Time is short now, and a Buchanan "relief
valve" would neutralize much of the growing discontent brewing in America
today.  Abatement of _secondary_ and _tertiary_ socio-economic ills --
unemployment, pervasive crime, decadent "culture" -- would occur, and
analysis of genuine solutions, solutions directed at the primary causes of
these ills, would be stymied.  Worst of all, pervasive miscegenation would
continue to occur, perhaps increase, as "good Christians" seek to overcome
"hate" and "bigotry."  The implementation of Buchanan's populist yet
"color blind" policies could be the coup de grace to the myopic and grand-
iose designs of the so-called white nationalist "movement."  Buchanan's
hopeless ideas bring to mind the racially-fatal ideas of a similar nature
put forth by the character "Ryan" the upstart FBI leader in William
Pierce's novel, _Hunter_. 

Though Buchanan is certainly not "one of us," this is not to imply the
Aryan activist should not consider involvement in this year's campaign. 
Actually, involvement can be beneficial, both personally and racially. 
Most Buchanan supporters agree on most issues with us.  Most of these
people may disagree with some of our beliefs, but only due to ignorance of
what we stand for and why.  While no one should donate money or labor to
the Buchanan campaign for its _own_ sake, participating in the Buchanan
campaign is a great opportunity to network with fellow Euro-Americans,
making new like-minded friends, and after some enlightenment, perhaps new
comrades as well. 

A prerequisite to a successful national political campaign is control of 
the media (or at least its tacit approval).  Obviously, we don't have it.
We cannot and will not succeed in conventional politics.  ANY expression 
of White racial preservation, or even expression of _preference_ for 
fellow Aryans, is outside the Establishment's "permissible" spectrum of 
thought.  Racial preservation will not be allowed as the topic in any 
Establishment-sponsored discussion.

Our only viable objective is to continue to inform our benighted brothers 
and sisters in America and across the world of our message, and strive to 
guarantee them the ability to receive and freely consider factual data 
about this unhappy world's problems, as well as our heritage.  We will 
not elect a "savior" through the controlled ballot box, and there is no 
point to expending vital resources toward that dead-end.  Let everyone 
who believes otherwise remember that Americans have "elected" the present 
dictatorship we live under.

Good people abound in the Buchanan campaign.  Seek them out.  Enlighten them.
Earn yourself new friends...and gain some comrades as well.

-- Milton John Kleim, Jr.



 "We must secure the existence of our People and a future for White children."




From mjk@efn.org Mon Feb 26 15:51:44 PST 1996
Article: 335710 of talk.politics.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.uoregon.edu!mars.efn.org!garcia.efn.org!mjk
From: "Milton John Kleim, Jr" 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.revolution.counter
Subject: Buchanan and the Aryan activist
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:11:43 -0800
Organization: Oregon Public Networking
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BUCHANAN AND THE ARYAN ACTIVIST


The success of Pat Buchanan in catapulting himself onto Campaign '96's
center stage presents great temptation for many of us.  Yearning for an
Establishment political leader who represents many of our desires and
offers potential relief for the hardships visited upon our Nation by the
"New World Order," alot of Aryan activists perceive Buchanan as a
forgivably flawed savior, someone deserving of support in his struggle
with internationalist, staunchly "politically correct" willing minions of
the Jews.

Pat Buchanan may be a sincere man, longing for an America with happy
families, safe streets, good jobs, and most of the things we long for as
well, and seek to regain for our country, too.  He may very well be
denouncing "racism" and "racists" as an unavoidable expedient tactic for
"mainstream" political viability

However, Pat Buchanan comes up short on the most fundamental issue, the
"master key to history," as it's been rightly called.  That issue is of
course the Race issue.  Buchanan is above all a _socio-economic_ conserv-
ative and not a racial conservative.  He may hold views -- privately --
comparable to our own about preference for fellow Whites, but there is no
evidence to indicate he is either conscious of the overwhelming primacy of
human biology in human affairs -- history, politics, indeed all culture --
or is willing to act in accordance with this reality even if he is aware. 

In the unlikelihood Buchanan overcomes Dole and Alexander, earns the
Republican nomination, and then defeats Commissar General Clinton, his
victory could have disastrous effects upon our Cause.  Pat Buchanan
advocates _half-measures_, not the full, comprehensive measures our
civilization desperately needs.  He offers band-aids when strong
antibiotics are necessary to sustain life.  His temporary remedies to the
human biology-based problems we face would mask the actual roots of social
disharmonics and decadence.  Time is short now, and a Buchanan "relief
valve" would neutralize much of the growing discontent brewing in America
today.  Abatement of _secondary_ and _tertiary_ socio-economic ills --
unemployment, pervasive crime, decadent "culture" -- would occur, and
analysis of genuine solutions, solutions directed at the primary causes of
these ills, would be stymied.  Worst of all, pervasive miscegenation would
continue to occur, perhaps increase, as "good Christians" seek to overcome
"hate" and "bigotry."  The implementation of Buchanan's populist yet
"color blind" policies could be the coup de grace to the myopic and grand-
iose designs of the so-called white nationalist "movement."  Buchanan's
hopeless ideas bring to mind the racially-fatal ideas of a similar nature
put forth by the character "Ryan" the upstart FBI leader in William
Pierce's novel, _Hunter_. 

Though Buchanan is certainly not "one of us," this is not to imply the
Aryan activist should not consider involvement in this year's campaign. 
Actually, involvement can be beneficial, both personally and racially. 
Most Buchanan supporters agree on most issues with us.  Most of these
people may disagree with some of our beliefs, but only due to ignorance of
what we stand for and why.  While no one should donate money or labor to
the Buchanan campaign for its _own_ sake, participating in the Buchanan
campaign is a great opportunity to network with fellow Euro-Americans,
making new like-minded friends, and after some enlightenment, perhaps new
comrades as well. 

A prerequisite to a successful national political campaign is control of 
the media (or at least its tacit approval).  Obviously, we don't have it.
We cannot and will not succeed in conventional politics.  ANY expression 
of White racial preservation, or even expression of _preference_ for 
fellow Aryans, is outside the Establishment's "permissible" spectrum of 
thought.  Racial preservation will not be allowed as the topic in any 
Establishment-sponsored discussion.

Our only viable objective is to continue to inform our benighted brothers 
and sisters in America and across the world of our message, and strive to 
guarantee them the ability to receive and freely consider factual data 
about this unhappy world's problems, as well as our heritage.  We will 
not elect a "savior" through the controlled ballot box, and there is no 
point to expending vital resources toward that dead-end.  Let everyone 
who believes otherwise remember that Americans have "elected" the present 
dictatorship we live under.

Good people abound in the Buchanan campaign.  Seek them out.  Enlighten them.
Earn yourself new friends...and gain some comrades as well.

-- Milton John Kleim, Jr.



 "We must secure the existence of our People and a future for White children."




From bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Tue Feb 27 07:45:31 PST 1996
Article: 25273 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,mn.politics,alt.discrimination,alt.revolution.counter
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From: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Subject: Forged header from c2.org (WAS: My views on national socialism...)
Message-ID: 
Sender: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Reply-To: bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:53:22 GMT
Lines: 22
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:14632 alt.politics.white-power:20192 alt.revisionism:25273 alt.discrimination:43670 alt.revolution.counter:5828

While I'm sure Mr. Graves is not concerned in the least about his criminal
action, I'm pointing it out anyway.

For those of you who haven't noticed, look at the header of the alleged
post from me: 


Article 90570 of alt.politics.white-power:
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From: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
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Subject: My views on national socialism, race, and the great Adolf Hitler
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From bb748@freenet.carleton.ca Tue Feb 27 13:31:11 PST 1996
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Subject: My views on national socialism, race, and the great Adolf Hitler
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.skinheads,alt.politics.white-power
Date: 26 Feb 1996 18:25:19 -0800
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[Originally posted to Stormfront-L Sun, 25 Feb 1996 13:16:27 -0500 under
the title "Re: NATIONAL SOCIALISM ?? AND RACE." Reposted by rich@c2.org.
He's serious, folks.]

Odin writes:
 
> In reality, this debate has opened up an issue which has long been close
> to my heart: the desirability of using National Socialism per se as a
> viable political vehicle.
 
First off, let me state a simple but overwhelming truth:
 
Aryan racial survival is NOT a "viable political cause."  
 
Let me say it another way: 
 
Advocacy of the survival of the Aryan Race, in ANY form, in ANY manner, in
ANY expression (verbally or symbolically) is NOT "viable" in the
Establishment political arena, or in western societies in general. 
 
Expressing a preference for living with, mating with, working with, or
playing with people who are like you in blood and culture is the greatest
"crime" in this world gone mad.  It is irrelevant what defense you offer;
you are a monster, someone beyond redemption (unless you "see the light"
and breed with a non-white next week).  You may sincerely express utter
disgust with the thoughts and actions of Adolf Hitler and his followers,
but there is no salvation from the wrath of the Jews and their savage
"politically correct" automatons.  
 
Say you prefer Aryans.  Say you hope your children will have a future....
 
And be irrevocably damned. 
 
> Modern NS proponents - as evidenced on the Stormfront-L list, openly
> admit to being admirers of Hitler usually "for the achievements of NS
> Germany"; and claim that National Socialism is a world view which
> ordered things according to their natural order and therefore should be
> kept alive as a philosophy.
  
> Let us have a realistic look at this:
  
> 1. The "Hitler's achievements" approach
  
> There are two types of this view: the "Hollywood Nazis" who strut around
> in brown shirts and armbands and so on; and those who do not wear
> uniforms but still openly defend Hitler and NS Germany.
  
> Mostly those who do not wear uniforms look disparagingly on those who
> do, claiming that they do the movement harm.
  
> I would suggest that any form of Hitler worship is harmful to the cause.
  
> First, let us decide what is the cause: Is the cause to save the White
> Race, or is the cause to try and defend Hitler?
 
Our objective must be to preserve and promote not only the gene-pool of 
the Aryan Race, keeping the unique biological heritage of our kind intact 
and free of alien genetic influence, but...
 
we must also be true to our heritage, for better or worse.  Hitler and 
National Socialism are part of that heritage, and I will NEVER revile a 
man who earnestly and skillfully sought the defense of our kind in his own 
flawed way.
 
> In my opinion, saving the White Race is much more important than trying
> to defend a historical figure of 60 years ago.
 
The defense of Hitler is ipso facto the defense of the Aryan Race.  The
Third Reich is the zenith of Aryan history, which is why the basest hatred
of our enemies is focused upon that society.  The Third Reich manifests
what COULD BE, it embodies progress, both biological and cultural-
technological.  It is the epitomy of evolution, and our enemies, who are
the agents of anti-progress, the entropic forces in human affairs who
counterbalance our kind, recognize that the Third Reich singly respresents
the antithesis of their devolutionary, decadent purposes. 
 
> What were Hitler's achievements?
> Firstly Hitler turned Germany around from the Great Depression, from a
> point of 6 million (strange, where have I heard that figure before)
> unemployed to a shortage of labour in 1938. This is truly remarkable,
> and even his most ardent crtics acknowledge this.
 
> Then it will be claimed that Hitler organized the first racial state.
> This is of course true, but, as Wilmot Robertson put it, he put Germans
> at the top of the Aryan racial totem pole.
 
Not true, if you're talking about the "Deutsch" when you say "Germans."
 
The Third Reich regarded all Northern Europeans as kindred, and 
implemented policies which supported that idea.  Aryans from across 
Europe were regarded as equals if they were conscious of their heritage 
and their duty to it.
 
The adoption of Polish children into German families as state policy
illustrates what nonsense the "Hitler was a 'German' supremacist" assetion
is. 
 
> My own mother, who is Dutch and who lived through the German occupation
> of Holland, can testify that the invasion by Germany of that declared
> neutral country and the four year occupation was less than fun.
 
It was an unfortunate event, but necessitated by the actions of the 
"Western" powers, acting in the interests of the Jews.
 
The invasion of Norway, similarly, was necessitated by the beligerent 
actions of the "West."  Churchill had planned to invade his "fellow 
democracy," but German military excellence prevented that.
 
> The treatment dished out to non Germans, even those of compatible racial
> extraction, clearly showed the "German nationalism first" ideology
> espoused by Hitler.
 
This is simply not true.  This is a lie cooked up by "Allied" propaganda 
and preached by those who are still under its spell.
 
> The fact that the SS produced a Waffen SS of a million men, of which
> more than half were non Germans, does not swing the balance against the
> argument that Hitler still viewed Germans as top of the "racial totem
> pole."
  
> I would point out to those who espouse the virtues of the Waffen SS,
> that there was even a non White section of the Waffen SS - an Indian
> section, complete with insignia et. al.
 
True, but the Indian unit was never engaged in battle, and was never
regarded as anything more than of propaganda value ("Indian volunteers
against British domination").  The Aryan units were often used in battle,
and many of them were distinguished in several actions.  The Norwegian and
French units engaged in many heroics in the defense of the Reich in the
"latter days."  And Hitler once told that "inferior" non-German SS
soldier, Leon Degrelle, "if I had a son, I would wish he would be like
you." 
 
> This TOTAL REVERSAL of "Nazi" racial policy indicates that the Waffen SS
> was more an expediency of manpower requirements than a "leveling of the
> racial totem pole."
 
Perhaps you've been watching too many Hollywood "documentaries" again, 
Odin.  Or have you been reading Herman Wouk and William Shirer?
 
> Finally, even the Waffen SS units engaged in some atrocities, which,
> although committed under the duress of war, still remain atrocities.
> (One example: the Malemdy Massacre, where 150 American soldiers, from
> the US 285th Field Artillery Observation Battalion, were captured by an
> advance guard of Kampfgruppe Peiper on December 17, 1944. A Rumanian SS
> trooper fired at one of the prisoners, sparking the massacre. 84 of the
> unarmed Americans were killed in a roadside meadow, and the rest were
> gravely wounded.)
 
Right from the "Allied" "war crimes 'trials'" reports, Odin... 
 
Perhaps you'd like to tell us your point?  That the "evil 'Nazis'" 
committed "atrocities" because of their "hateful, chauvinistic" ideology?
 
This line of "thought" sounds familiar.
 
I don't mean to imply that the German Armed Forces did not commit some 
brutal and unfortunate acts.  They certainly did.  In all warfare, 
terrible acts are committed, and they occur in all types of situations, 
by all types of combatants.  The Germans' real and alleged "atrocities" 
are singled out because they were fighting for a noble cause against 
world domination by the Jews.
 
> To evaluate the claims of Hitler's achievements, then: economically he
> turned Germany around, but the racial state he created was not the
> perfect model apologists make it out to be.
 
WHO ever said Hitler created the "perfect" model?  I certainly have not.  
Hitler was flawed, and his creations were flawed.  But the man _tried_, 
often in brilliant and incredibly effective ways, to help his Nation and 
our Race to prosper.  Hindsight is also, of course, 20/20, and the petty 
would-be leaders can criticize the man Adolf Hitler all they want, though 
they will never be in his position, facing the dilemmas he did, and 
performing like a statesman that anyone in their right mind should be 
proud of.  God help me to handle situations like Hitler if I am ever 
faced with the decisions he was.
 
> Now, let us look at the negative points of Hitler:
 
> Despite what all the revisionists might say, the fact remains that
> Hitler directly caused Europe (and America) to be plunged into the
> greatest and most pointless conflict this century has ever seen.
 
> Hitler of all people should have known that the enemies of his ideology
> were just waiting for an excuse to obliterate him. Why did he give it to
> them by invading Poland?
 
Because to regain Danzig was RIGHT!  Because the citizens of Danzig 
DESIRED reunification with the Reich.
 
Some of us are governed by righteous principles, and not political 
expediency.
 
When a bully says, "you better not try to take back your lunch money, or 
I'll smash your face in!," the coward will shrink back in terror.  The 
strong (at least in spirit) man will without further ado attempt to subdue 
the bully and retrieve what is rightfully his.
 
You are quite right: Hitler's enemies wanted an EXCUSE to attack Germany. 
How long should he have waited until they made their OWN excuse?  War was
inevitable in the late '30s or early '40s, because the world-imperialist
designs of the Jews and their allies conflicted with the nationalist-
racialist ideals of Gemany, Italy, and Japan.  Hitler tried to be fair,
asking Poland merely for a guaranteed access to Ostpreussen and Danzig,
but the obstinately unjust cannot be reasoned with. 
 
> Why did he declare war on America, allying the "racial state" of NS
> Germany with the non White Japanese? Where was his sense of racial
> loyalty?
 
Because there was no "racial loyalty" between the Rosenfeld government 
and the Aryan government of the Third Reich.  
 
The cause of Germany and Japan were similar, i.e., two proud peoples 
seeking self-determination and the ability to preserve their heritage, 
which is why the Axis was formed.  And Hitler, understanding honor, 
upheld his duty to the myopic agreement to stand firm with the Japanese 
against "Western" imperialism.
 
> No amount of "revisionism" can get away from the fact that the Second
> World War was an atrocious disaster in which millions of people died for
> no good reason, and certainly not for the benefit of the White race. To
> this day, Germany is broken, perhaps never to rise again. The war may
> indeed, as the late Revilo Oliver put it, "have consummated the death of
> the West."
 
What would you have suggested Hitler had done?  Surrendered to the Jews?
 
Perhaps nonresistance to "Operation Groza" (Stalin's planned invasion of
Germany on July 6, 1941) would have been more to your liking?  Then we
could have avoided the disaster which was World War II, only to be
replaced by the disaster of Stalinism from Cork to Kiev, Trondheim to
Palermo. 
 
How many would have died under Jew commissars in the German Soviet
Socialist Republic (and French SSR, British SSR, Dutch SSR, Swedish SSR,
and so on) had Stalin have taken ALL of Europe?  Would we even be here
today? 
 
> Look at it realistically, my friends. When the score is added up, does
> Hitler weigh more heavily on the plus side or the minus side of the
> White Race? I think the minus side.
 
As I pointed out in the beginning, ANY advocacy of the survival of our
biological and cultural heritage is beyond the range of "permissible"
thought and belief. 
 
What's the difference if we actually BELIEVE in what Hitler advocated,
or whether they just CALL us "Nazis"?
 
If they're gonna call me a "Nazi," I might as well accept the truths of
National Socialism.  A proud man loyal to his beliefs, no matter how
"repugnant," is more highly regarded than one who is cowardly and tries to
scurry away from his ideas when painted with a tar brush. 
 
> I think the entire Second World War could have been avoided. I can cry
> when I think of millions of White men killing each other, from Moscow to
> Berlin, from Normandy to Crete, of the babies killed in Dresden to the
> babies killed in the Blitz on London . . . all for nothing. Hitler could
> have avoided the war by being less of a German nationalist and more of a
> pro-European . . . .
 
I have never been able to cry at the thought of what happened in Europe 
in World War One and Two.  It's just too overwhelming.
 
I hope you really don't sincerely believe in your last statement there.  
If you do, it pains me to call you a fool, comrade.  It is beyond 
ridiculous to believe that Germany would have been allowed to continue 
her progress unabated through the 1940s regardless of what Hitler did (or 
didn't do)..
 
> History is an unemotional judge. It does not say what your intentions
> were it says what you did.
 
History is a lie agreed upon.  History is bunk.
 
> In objective review, I am sorry to tell all of you that, as far as
> advancing the cause of the White Race, the defeat and destruction left
> by Hitler set the cause of the White Race back, perhaps even
> permanently.
 
You are correct, but this does not mean we should denounce Hitler.  He
tried, and failed.  But his ideas remain true today.
 
"Hitlerism" no more died at the Reichskanzlei than Christianity died on the 
Cross.
 
> As such, Hitler should not be an object of admiration, but rather as a
> figure of historical tragedy of immense proportions. 
 
He is both.
 
> It is time that pro White activists in the 1990s shake the belief that 
> clinging to Hitler will save them. 
 
No National Socialist believes "Hitler is going to save us."  But we 
respect those great men who came before us, and bestowed great ideas and 
ideals upon us.  We are true to ourselves and true to the truth, which is 
why we proudly adhere to something that is reviled by a world gone mad.
 
> Hitler is not going to save you, all he did was make it ten, twenty 
> times more difficult for you to save your race. 
 
Hitler teaches us that, despite the consequences and hardhips inherent,
stand firm, fear no man, and do right and good regardless of what lies
ahead. 
 
> All those who cling to "National Socialism" I say:  Why on earth would
> someone want to take up the cudgels of Hitler's name and the name of his
> ideology and try and fight the Second World War over again? Don't you
> realize Hitler lost?  Why on earth burden yourself with the historical
> arguments of 60 years ago?
 
Because they were RIGHT in 1930, they were RIGHT in 4000 BC, and they are 
RIGHT today.
 
Hitler didn't invent the facts and ideals which he molded into National
Socialism, of course, but his triumphs and struggles must, out of honor
and respect for a man greater than all of us, be recognized and
acknowledged. 
 
We don't seek to "try and fight the Second World War over again," any 
more than sane Christians wish to physically experience the Crucifixion 
personally.
 
> Did you know that Hitler himself carried with him a portrait of
> Frederick the Great where ever he went, regarding the Prussian monarch
> as a personal hero. But did Hitler try and dress like Frederick, or did
> he take Frederick's policies and ideology and try and make them 
> applicable to his time? No, of course not, why should you?
 
Who said we are? 
 
> Lastly, all those of you who complain about net censorship: bear in mind
> that Hitler and NS Germany were one of the greatest censors this
> century. 
 
Germany has historically had censorship.  It is not unique to German 
National Socialists.  And we American National Socialists have never said 
we plan to create a "Fourth Reich" in America.  National Socialism is no 
more peculiar to Germany than Catholicism is peculiar to Italy.  National 
Socialism in 21st Century America would certainly be manifested 
differently than it was in 1930s Germany, just as republican government 
was manifested differently in 1790s America than it was in ancient Greece.
 
> I am willing to bet that most of you have books on your bookshelves 
> that would have you put in prison under Hitler.
 
I doubt it.  I'm not a Communist terrorist.
 
> You would not have had the freedom to say many of things that you do, 
> and your right to independent thought would have been severely curtailed. 
 
Conspiracy to commit treason, conspiracy to commit assassination, 
conspiracy to commit arson and terrorism, are not protected even by 
America's First Amendment.  The "victims" of Germany's "censorship" were 
the Communist advocates of these crimes.
 
Those are the things "censored" by the Third Reich.
 
> To give but one example: the law used to ban Willem Staglich's book in 
> Germany (the "Auschwitz Myth" one) in fact dated directly from the Hitler 
> era. Yes, they used one of Hitler's own laws, which had remained on the
> statute books!
 
The 9th Amendment of the US Constitution is now used to justify abortion,
something the Founders would NEVER have endorsed. 
 
What's your point, Odin?
 
> Hitler would not have endorsed your call for freedom of speech....
 
Perhaps.  But neither would he try to prohibit what we discuss.
 
> 2. "National Socialism"
  
> These arguments apply not only to the Hitler fan club, but also indeed
> to even using the term "National Socialism".
  
> I have a problem with this very term as well. Quite apart from the fact
> that using it immediately ties you to Hitler (something which I hope I
> have motivated sufficiently above for anyone interested in serious
> politics, and about saving the White Race, to realize is not such a good
> idea) I have problems with the very semantics of this.
  
> Are the issues which faced Hitler the same as the ones facing us today?
> Of course not! All this prattle about what was "in the 25 points" of the
> NSDAP is ridiculous twaddle.
 
Agreed.  But we need a new "25 Points."  Or probably a "100 Points."
 
> Hitler used the words "National Socialism" because he was capitalizing
> on German nationalism (as indeed he was a German nationalist himself)
> after the First World War and the "socialism" bit because the ideology
> of communism was taking root in Germany and was Hitler's fiercest
> opponent. 
 
That's one interpretation.
 
Another is mine: Hitler recognized the need for a "socialist" socio-
economic system, and opposed to INTERnational "socialism" (Marxism), adopted
the term from 1890s Austrian politics (the NSDAP was not the first
"National Socialist" party). 
 
> If he had called his party the "National Capitalist German
> Workers Party" or the "National Free Enterprise German Workers Party"
> (which was closer to the true ideology he held) he would have alienated
> the German workers whom he was trying to attract. (Interesting aside:
> George Lincoln Rockwell also realized this problem and first called his
> WUNS the "World Union of Free Enterprise National Socialists" in an
> attempt to dodge the issue).
 
Here again you're accepting the Jewish definitions as valid, which 
they're not.  Marxists believe only their "socialism" is socialism, and 
everything else is "capitalism."  National Socialists reject that on its 
face, because the root meaning of the term implies, simply, "an advocate 
of the society," and need not have politically-loaded meaning.
 
GLR did not use "Socialism" at first becaue of the "Red Scare."
 
> In fact of course Hitler was not a socialist at all, and those of you
> who know the history of the Strasser (Gregor and Otto) brothers and the
> Night of the Long Knives, will know that this shameful episode (where
> Hitler had his political opponents executed . . .) was Hitler getting
> rid of the socialists in his party!
 
Bullshit.
 
The Strassers were Marxists through and through, and while having some 
valid ideas, could not see that race mattered more than economics.  They 
conspired against the NSDAP, and one was "neutralized."
 
As for the fag Roehm and his entourage of fruits in the SA, well, they
were eliminated because they conspired to overthrow Hitler.  President
Hindenburg endorsed the action, even though he didn't particularly like
Hitler. 
 
> The NSDAP was originally economically very left wing. It was on this
> basis that Hitler first attracted the Strasser brothers, and even Josef
> Goebbels, who won over the Communist Party stronghold of Berlin to the
> NSDAP with promises of socialism!
 
And the Deutsche Arbeitsfront and the Kraft durch Freude program satisfied 
the socialist aspirations of the German worker!
 
> Hitler gradually started shifting the more left wing economic aspects to
> his economic policy, leading to the attempted socialist "second
> revolution" by the Strasser brothers and the homosexual SA leader Ernst
> Roehm, which in turn led to the Night of the Long Knives.
 
Thank you, sir!  That's normally called "treason," but the Jews (and you, 
for some reason) wish to term it something else.
 
> So much for the "socialism" of "National Socialism" !
 
Why, a statement right out of "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich!"
 
Have you read ANY fairly objective works on the Third Reich?
 
> It is clear that the "national" and "socialism" Hitler was talking about
> was far more basic than what modern day NS apologists would have you
> believe. What Hitler as talking about was specifically designed for
> Germany in the 1920s and 1930s, and the greater idea of pan European
> unity certainly did not feature in it.
 
Wrong.  It is now acknowledged, painfully (for EU boosters), that the
economic planning of the Third Reich was the precursor to the European
Union.  Walther Funk, Hitler's president of the Reichsbank, played
prominently in the foundations of the EC.  His _Economic Future of Europe_
is an interesting read. 
 
> An example? Sure, look up Mein Kampf, James Murphy edition, page 341,
> where Hitler wrote: "Finally we must be quite clear on the following
> point: France is and will remain the implacable enemy of Germany...."
 
Yeah?  What's your point?  France was not an enemy by Germany's choice.
 
> Does that sound like a pan European policy to you? Or does it sound like
> old fashioned nationalism, as in "National Socialism"?
 
It's also a fact that Marshal Petain and his associates respected the 
Germans even during the occupation, and most French are not particularly 
bitter about the occupation.  And it is fitting that French SS soldiers 
helped defend Berlin in the last days.
 
> Hitler himself said in that famous quote that National Socialism was not
> for export, and I agree with him 100% here.
 
The peculiar form applied in Germany is indeed not for export, and no
serious American National Socialist is saying we want to superimpose the
German form of NS on America. 
 
> In summary: even the term "National Socialism" is not applicable today.
> Why cling to it?
 
That's your opinion, an invalid one.
 
> A NEW NAME, PLEASE!
  
> I would suggest that the pan Europeanism that is emerging in our time is
> something radically different to the ideology which Hitler espoused.
 
You can suggest it, but I doubt it will vary much from NS.
 
And don't think for a minute you'll get away with calling it something 
else.  You're still a "NAZI," Odin.
 
> This world view, which is based on a biological interpretation of race
> and racial solidarity across national boundaries, will, and must win, if
> civilization is to remain intact. It will win through the use of modern
> ideas, the internet, academic research, and possibly other tactics which
> may develop.
 
What are we to win, Odin?  Political office?
 
HA HA HA HA HA!!!
 
And how long do you imagine you'll last in office?  Which form of 
assassination do you prefer?
 
Our ONLY objective is to enlighten our benighted brethren throughout the 
world, and salvage the "Remnant" in the hopes of riding out the coming 
racial apocalypse, and perhaps in a few centuries, if we do survive, we 
can conquer the world once again.  Small "National Socialist" societies 
will be the islands of civilization in a sea of cultural darkness.  
Perhaps they can be linked into a confederation later.
 
> But it will not win by dressing itself as "National Socialism" - not
> only for the obvious propaganda reasons, but BECAUSE IT IS NOT NATIONAL
> SOCIALISM!
 
Then what is it?
 
> For heavens' sake, call it something else, because it is not National
> Socialism!
 
And what might the Jewsmedia call it?
 
"Nazism?"
 
> Want another example? Sure. I will now proceed to shock all you
> Stormfronters by telling you the names of two Jews who have done more
> for saving the White Race than all the modern day "National Socialists"
> put together: Richard Herrnstein and Professor Hans Eysenck.
  
> Herrnstein is of course a co-author of the Bell Curve, which is doing
> more to revise attitudes on race than any other publication since the
> Second World War.
  
> Hans Eysenck is another IQ and race researcher who laid the groundwork
> for The Bell Curve's success.
  
Highly revealing, Odin.  Revealing of your ideas about race.
 
Jews are NOT white.  How long does it take to get that across to the 
stubborn fools who insist they are?
 
And what have Herrnstein and Eysenck and the other Jewish human 
biologists done to save the "white" race?  Creating studies to prove what 
was already obvious to Farmer John upon working with Niggers for a 
few hours?  We don't need "science" to prove the obvious.  You CANNOT 
prove something to the stubbornly blind and blindly stubborn who cannot 
or will not think for themselves.  Odin, you are trying to fight 
an ignorance problem when in reality it is a _constitutional character_ 
problem.  Farmer John is quite aware of racial difference, and smart 
enough to know how to handle them, but the so-called "scientists" play 
games to "research" problems and then offer "no conclusive evidence" that 
the sun is yellow.
 
It is sheer idiocy to imagine that "scientifically-demonstrated" facts of
racial differences will change the thinking and actions of the imbeciles
who believe in racial "equality." 
 
I'm sure Jews Herrnstein and Eysenck would be appalled that you use their 
research for the benefit of the Aryan Race.  They, like all "scientists" 
involved in such research, believe only IQ matters, and race does not.  
They value a 120 IQ Nigger over a 110 IQ Aryan.
 
> DEAD END
 
> I repeat my earlier question: are you interested in saving the White
> Race, or are you interested in defending Hitler?
 
Listen to William Pierce:
 
"Breaking through the wall of misunderstanding between us and the White
public is a large enough task without raising the spectre of made-in-
Hollywood "Nazis."  Even if there were no such negative image to overcome,
however -- even if the Jews never had made an anti-Nazi film or television
show -- it would be wrong for the Alliance to associate itself with the
cult aspects of National Socialism in Germany prior to 1945.  Things that
were natural and helped form a positive public image in Germany at that
time seem unnatural and alien in America and many other parts of the White
world today.... 
 
"It is also wrong, however, for us to shut our minds to the eternal truths
emodied in the National Socialist idea; they are the truths on which our 
own creed is based.  It is wrong for us to shut our eyes to the truth 
about the Second World War, its background, its real causes, the real 
issues involved, and the real consequences of its loss to our race.  And 
it is wrong for us not to acknowledge the debt our race owes to Adolf 
Hitler and his followers throughout Europe, depsite their apparent defeat 
in 1945."
 
> The leading examples of populism are France's Jean Marie Le Pen,
> Austria's Jorg Haider and America's David Duke. let's have a closer look
> at this phenomena:
  
> All three of these persons have reached hundreds of thousands, and in Le
> Pen's case, millions, of White people with a message of racial
> consciousness and "pro-Whiteness". They have all distanced themselves
> completely and utterly from National Socialism. There are no swastikas
> hanging around them, despite their enemies best efforts to link them.
 
These men have advocated **NOT** "pro-White" policies, but "equal rights 
for French/Ostmarkers/Whites" policies.  And the "equal rights for Whites/
color-blind" stance is a losing proposition.
 
A "color-blind" society means the death of the Aryan Race.  That is the 
bottom line.
 
And Le Pen, Haider, and Duke have not successfully distanced themselves 
>from  the "Nazi" mystique.  Even Buchanan, someone much less "racist" than 
Duke, is being painted a "Nazi."
 
> The secret of the three leader's (mentioned above) success is that they
> have taken a pro-White policy, and used the idiom and message of our
> time to propagate it. 
 
Again, no "pro-White" policy, but a COLOR-BLIND policy.  Which means 
miscegention continues and cultural bolshevism continues.  And the "good" 
Jews will surely be "advising" on how to be "color-blind."
 
> Do you think for a minute David Duke would get the votes that he does 
> if he was still in a Klan robe?
 
No.  But none of us are advocating wearing brown shirts or SS uniforms, 
either.
 
> Or that Haider would get the votes he does if he emulated Gary Lauck? 
 
This is a moot point, since he would be arrested for displaying an 
"illegal symbol."
 
> No, of course not, they express themselves in the idiom of their time, 
> to their own people. 
 
So do we.
 
> It is wrong to call Le Pen, Duke, or Haider National Socialists, 
> because they are not! 
 
Why, we finally agree!
 
> They are serious pro White politicians who have broken the paper 
> curtain with a modern approach to the race issue. 
 
HA HA HA HA!!
 
You make me laugh.  "Serious pro-White politicians."  HA HA HA HA HA!!
 
> They have not remained on the fringes, precisely because they
> realized that "National Socialism" would condemn them to the fringes
> forever.
 
Governor Duke, President Le Pen, and Kanzler Haider might disagree with you.
 
> And I would add: these three "populists" have done more to raise racial
> consciousness amongst the White race than all the modern day national
> socialists put together have done.
 
They have done nothing of the sort.  They have played on pre-existing 
racial tension.  The Simian trial will surely be a major element in this 
year's elections in America.
 
> If you are interested in reaching millions of people, and you want to be
> a mass movement, then you must follow the following maxim:
  
> YOU MUST SET THE PRECEDENT: DO NOT LET THE PRECEDENT SET YOU.
 
Indeed!!  Which is why I will not allow the Jews to define what a "Nazi" is.
 
-- Milton
 
 
 
 

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