Shofar FTP Archive File: people/m/moran.tom/1996/moran.0196
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 1 11:45:46 PST 1996
Article: 18366 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No Zyclone - then DDT
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 14:11:25 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>
>> You may want to call revisionist "crazy", but you will have to admit
>> that they are the ones who started the question that has thus far
>> resulted in the reduction of said victims at Auschwitz from 4 million
>> to 1 million,
>>
>>>
> Garbage. No historian of the Holocaust ever claimed
>that number. The figure of 1 million Jews murdered at Auschwitz
>has remained constant since the 1950's.
Perhaps you could direct us to some books that would confirm your
assertion. Some books that were written in the Fifties and Sixties
maybe.
> --YFE
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 1 13:31:40 PST 1996
Article: 18370 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zioexaggeration = 200,000,000
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 14:37:04 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
"What price Israel"
Alfred M. Lilienthal
"Here is a paradox, a most ingenious paradox, an anthroplogic
fact, many Christians may have much more Hebrew-Isrealite blood
in their veins than most of their Jewish neighbors"
Dr. Lilienthal has for a number of years been associated with certain
publications that focus on telling the truth about Israel and Zionism,
with his attacks on Jewish activities being of the most scathing.
Nevertheless, having had personal communication with Dr. Lilienthal
and meeting him once at his initiative I recognized that he had an
underlying motive. He knows the truthful analysis he puts out about
Jews and Zionism will find it's way out anyway, so he comes out and
says it too so the Jews will have someone to point to in order to
demonstrate they have the capacity for open mindedness. I recognized
Lilienthal as a "cryptic Jew" from the early stages. I would say he
associated himself with anti-Zionist parties in order to have some
influence on the intensity of the their output. Jews often attach
themselves to organizations for this reason only. The above statement
shows that he has a Jewish agenda at his core. I once heard him, in an
address to an Arab association, say they had common bonds through
Abraham, which was a clincher for me at the time, to be more
suspicious of the cryptic nature of his coming on like a anti-Zionist.
Lets look at his own wording. I take his use of the word "paradox" to
mean the dictionary option: "a statement or proposition seemingly
self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expressing a possible
truth". This can be further confirmed by his asserting
"anthropological fact".
Lilienthal appears almost as flaming as the Bloom's, who I reported on
above under "Zioexaggerations" in asserting that Jewish "blood" is
prevalaint in Western mans gene pool.
Any intermixing of "blood" would be a two way street. By putting it
the way Lilienthal and the Bloom's put it they would have us believe
that the Jewish blood would become the prevalaint factor, displacing
the traces of the others while their's becomes the ruling gene.
"Anthropological" refers to a empirical process, which comes under the
"scientific method". If Lilienthal and the Bloom's make these claims,
let them present the empirical path to their consclusions. The Bloom's
concept of empiricism is summarized above, which if this was ever
taken as a prime example for empirical standards we would still be in
the dark ages.
Heres another example of empirical recogning to see if Lilienthal,
Bloom's and any other ethnocentric raving on the subject carries any
validity at all.
The Jewish record, according to the science of archeology goes back to
maybe 1250 BC. Their only record, according to themselves is found in
their Bible which puts them at the beginning of the universe. As far
as any other record of their existence, in the early stages, there are
a couple of referrences to them made by other societies of the time,
but these are from around 600 BC.
As far as the area of biblical narrative is concerned, there is
considerable record from other societies concerning the area, but not
about the Hebrews themselves. The area was never controlled fully by
any Hebrew people. It was always under the occupation authority of
many different and more significant civilizations. Egypt, the
Assyrians, Babylonians, Hittites, Greeks and Romans to mention a few.
There is also the Jews own story of how they went into the land around
the time of 1250 BC, whereas archeological digs show civilization
there for thousands of years before that.
All of these societies put settlements into the area which ended up
interbreeding with the inhabitants, the Hebrews among them. This would
be taking place over a long period. Maybe one of the only biblical
narratives that can be shown to hold any validity at all is an account
of how a few ten thousands of Hebrews were carried away to Babylon,
later allowed to return after a sweeping decree by Cyrus who set free
many from many different areas with out mentioning the Jews in
particular. When this carrying away took place it is said that the
Babylonians replaced the displaced Hebrews in Palestine, and by the
time the Hebrews returned after many decades in Babylon, intermingling
we should suppose, the Babylonians had already intergrated with the
remaining population, especially in the Sumerian sector.
So, from this we assume that any "blood" specialization that may have
existed among the Hebrews was already diluted to a great degree before
even the invasion of the Greeks and Romans who set up colonys of their
own. Combining this with what took place over the next two thousnad
years we can see that any Hebrew "blood" was so thoroughly intermixed
that it's original identity would be almost erased.
As to any superiority being associated with Jewish "blood" we should
also look at the record through the empirical method. If one should
look into existing history books, the index, and look up Hebrew,
Sgyptian, Assyrian, Roman, Greek and a number of others, we might find
Hebrew on say, page 15, 234 - 235, whereas under the others we might
see something like Romans, page 15, 64, 108 - 119, 340 - 360. In fact
any books on the Bible would be quite boring affairs if they didn't
include pictures of art and commentary of societies other than the
Hebrews. The Hebrews were not innovators in anything. Very little
record is there. They even, by thier own record, had to call on the
Phoenecians to build their temple.
The Romans and the Greeks have left behind a record that makes the
Bible look like a pamphlet. The Greeks and the Romans were great in
theatre, art, literature, engineering, philosophy and other
innovations that are totally absent from the Hebrew record.
Even after the biblical era unto now there is no record of Hebrew
superiority. I will state now that nothing like this would be written
if it wasn't for the many machinations of the Hebrews of their
superiority. If they think they can just come out and say whatever
they want to, they should expect a challenge.
The only record of any true accomplishment associated with Hebrewism
has occured in the last century. Even here it can be shown, using the
empirical dynamics of anthropology, that any accomplishments
associated with Hebrewism is really the result of non-Hebrewism.
Take names like Einstein, Oppenheimer and a few other European names
who are touted as Jewish whenever their names come up. They all have a
German, Italian or other western connection. Of course the Hebrew ego
will blurt out that names like Heisenberg, Shroedinger, Plank,
Galileo, Newton, and a whole slue of others came to be from the Jewish
gene. This I have witnessed personally. In this case we would have to
look at other areas the Jews have taken root, such as Romania, Soviet
Union, Hungary, other nations of the Middle East, North Africa and in
South America.
So tracing Hebrews from the very onset of their record to now shows
that there is absolutely nothing there to show that Hebrew "blood"
prevails anywhere and that any unique benevolent qualities are
associated with it.
No one is more aware, at least subliminally, than the Hebrews, who
have to resort to making boasterous announcements, no.1 in the process
of chutzpah.
The Jews have wide record of stating they are the only group to exist
>from ancient times, constantly raving about their enduring cohesion.
The Jew finds it necissary to stay together in order to ply their way
in the world. They, not having the inherent strength and capability to
go it alone have always stuck together to capitalize on the talents
and production of others. They have the most repeated history in the
world, one of constantly being the recipients of backlash to their
conspiracies to manipulate others for the Jewish interest. They call
it persecution. But if a little boy is constantly getting into
trouble, who's fault is it? Any common recognition would have to put
the ultimate responsibility on the little boy. In fact they thrive on
this history. Glorify in being persecuted, evidentally giving them
some sense of accomplishment as a people.
Aside from a few individual contributions, it can not be shown that
any good has ever come from Jews acting in the capacity as a whole.
The only thing that their own history suggests is that nothing good
comes from it. The most repeated history in the history of the world.
From dcarpenter@netrax.net Tue Jan 2 15:27:24 PST 1996
Article: 24731 of alt.conspiracy
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From: dcarpenter@netrax.net
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Why does Israel get all our money?
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 18:41:22 GMT
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Ok, here's a question that perhaps someone can answer intelligently:
Why does Israel, which has no financial trouble, get more from the USA than any
other country in the world?
Sleepy - Money Incorporated (MYC) World Leader
Read Money Inc. Digest -Available via FTP at ftp.paranoia.com
or the new editions at: ftp.etext.org /pub/Politics/Moneyinc
This post or e-mail does not give the recipient permission
to send unsolicited messages, particularly advertisements.
Also forbidden is the addition of my address to any mailing
list, for any reason, without my explicit permission.
Violations of this request will be reported to the violator's
Internet Provider.
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 2 15:27:25 PST 1996
Article: 24735 of alt.conspiracy
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Why does Israel get all our money?
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 16:24:14 GMT
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dcarpenter@netrax.net wrote:
>Ok, here's a question that perhaps someone can answer intelligently:
>Why does Israel, which has no financial trouble, get more from the USA than any
>other country in the world?
Fear. Fear of opposition. Fear of loosing ones social position. Fear
of Jews conspiring against them. Them, Hollywood, Congress, the
members or the medias. Fear - cowardice.
>Sleepy - Money Incorporated (MYC) World Leader
>Read Money Inc. Digest -Available via FTP at ftp.paranoia.com
>or the new editions at: ftp.etext.org /pub/Politics/Moneyinc
>This post or e-mail does not give the recipient permission
>to send unsolicited messages, particularly advertisements.
>Also forbidden is the addition of my address to any mailing
>list, for any reason, without my explicit permission.
>Violations of this request will be reported to the violator's
>Internet Provider.
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 3 10:10:34 PST 1996
Article: 18644 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No Zyclone - then DDT
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 15:37:32 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>tom moran wrote:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>## The death rate in the work camps was tremendous long before the
>## end of the war. A document which even the crazy "revisionists"
>## agree is genuine, states that during the second half of 1942,
>## out of 130,000 prisoners used as slave labor in some camps,
>## 80,000 died.
># I don't know about this particular document,
>You don't know anything, as far as I can tell from your articles.
>Why don't you ask Al Baron... he's doing "research" now!
Is this your method of dealing with your students? Of course you have
your exclusion principle for civility. Why don't you show your board
of regents your posts to see if they want to keep you on.
># nor do I know what they died from,
>Perhaps our revisionazis will say they all died of old age?
># but it seems if a document exists it would show the Germans
># kept records. Was it a report of complaint or one of jubilation?
>The letter is about slave labor force, not about Jews. The SS
>Economic Division stated that too many of them were dying, actually.
>"Revisionists" try to use this letter to "prove" that the Nazis
>didn't want Jews to die, but the letter, once again, doesn't
>mention Jews, but slave labor force. It is *not* addressed to
>camps such as Treblinka, Belzec, etc.
>## One truly memorable photograph is that of the fat SS-women
>## in Belsen, dumping skeletal corpses into a mass grave. I recently
>## scanned it, and Mr. Jamie McCarthy loaded it to Nizkor.
Why don't you give us a extensive photographic survey of the "gas
chambers" and crematoria that could handle 10,000 people a day? Oh
thats right, there aren't any. What relevance does fat women have to
the assertions of millions put to death?
># He also reported that on arrival to the camp 200 exinmates were
># pursuing 3 or 4 guards out in the fields, which hardly seems could have
># been done by emaciated people.
>No one claims the Nazis starved to death *all* of the inmates. Some
>survived. The rest - some of them you can see in that photograph.
Now this is more like it.
># You may want to call revisionist "crazy", but you will have to admit
># that they are the ones who started the question that has thus far
># resulted in the reduction of said victims at Auschwitz from 4 million
># to 1 million, and the new acceptance that other things did not take
># place.
>Rubbish. Most historians never accepted the 4 million figure (see
>Reitlinger's book from 1958, etc). Same for your other claim; all
>that "revisionists" have done is repeat claims by historians. They
>have never led to "new acceptance that other things did not take
>place"; they simply took what respected histroians said and repeated it.
Do you know where I could peruse Reitlinger's book. The one with the
1958 publication date? Is this the only book - besides Hilberg's?
>-Danny Keren.
>--
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>-Lu Xun.
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 3 10:10:35 PST 1996
Article: 18645 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 15:41:22 GMT
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jaklein@unix.amherst.edu (Josh Klein) wrote:
>> >
>> 'Look commodant, das building looks like it vas a shower vacility vor
>> das inmates.' - 'Nyet, das must be vor vraining poison gas down on
>> das inmates. Ve must report this to Nuremberg.'
>> 'Over there commodant, vindows into building.' - 'Nyet, das must be
>> vor putting in poison powder from deese little vround boxes. Ve must
>> report das too. I see das vents in building over dhere. Must be vor
>> pouring pellets down on victims. Ve must vind more evidence to give
>> Nuremberg, the Germans must pay vor attacking das motherland.'
>I will simply point out that Mr. Moran's attempts to immitate a Russian
>accent are as pathetic as his attempt to find the Vistula river on
>a map. (Russian does have an "f" sound, so Russians do not mispronounce
>English f's as v's. In addition, it is unlikely that a Russian would use
>the German "das" as a substitute for the English definite article "the."
>In fact, even a German would hardly make the transposision Moran has above,
>since Germans would presumably use the article "die" in front of plural
>nouns. )
>So what's new? Moran is still full of balogne.
I see that you got the idea though. Now that you have gotten that off
of your ( ? ), maybe you would like to comment on the connotations.
>--
>Josh Klein
>Amherst College
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 4 07:42:15 PST 1996
Article: 18776 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Mass Graves
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 13:11:32 GMT
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t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON KEITH MURRAY) wrote:
>In article <4c1c80$nh8@zippy.cais.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>> When a heated igneous (molten) intrusion oozes into existing rock the
>>process is easily identified on inspection.
>Sorry, wrong answer. *Generally* speaking this is true, but not always.
>During my field school last September there was one outcrop with a contact
>between an granitoid and a hornblende-mica schist. Two structural
>geologists (one of them being one of the authors of the standard text on
>structural geology, Paul Williams), three PhD students and one MSc student
>could not figure out the nature of the contact (ie, intrusive, unconformal,
>conformal, tectonic and so on). Everyone present had an idea as to what it
>was but without more edvanced analysis (thin sectioning, dating, maybe
>geophysics) we couldn't say for sure so I had to simply present my theory
>and give the reasoning behind it, with better than 50-50 odds that my theory
>was wrong. However, based on inspection, that was all we could do.
Morrison, don't you ever give up being a nit wit? I can see you now,
going into see one of these professors and asking about my post. They
give you the general rule, your "Generally this is true ..." but then
offer up a little exception which you try to comprehend as best you
can. Granite and schist are both metamorphic rocks. Either they came
into contact way back while in their original makeup, the granite
having a igneous origin and the schist having a sedimentary origin and
then metamorphizing in the proximate, or they metamorphised and then
slide together, the later being the least likely. If the granite
intruded into the shale, shale being a first stage to becoming a
schist, and then both went on to metamorphize, this process would
obliterate any signs of a chilled zone or a baked zone, the focus of
my original post. Another option would be that a sedimentary layer was
deposited on a existing granitic base and the whole thing covered over
with subsequent deposits giving the dynamics of wieght and thus heat,
both prime components for metamophization. Of any of the three likely
options, evidence would exist that would make it possible to tell
which process took place. Give me the field trip location and the next
time I'm in the area, I'll take a look.
>>The most obvious sign
>>would be of course the two distinct types of rocks in contrast. On
>>closer inspection though, we would see at the points of contact that
>>both bodies of rock, the intruding igneous rock and that intruded
>>upon, would show distinct differences from the rest. The intruded upon
>>rock would show a variation in comparison to its rest which is called
>>the "baked zone" and the area of contact with the intruding rock would
>>be called the "chilled zone". This kind of effect of heat on mineral
>>substance would also apply to regolith, which would make it easier to
>>locate any mass graves said to have been used as in situ cremation
>>areas, by comparing just the suface material, the soil itself and any
>>rocks, in the general area. This would still be evident today.
>First of all, the two processes are not identical because burning material
>is not the same thing as molten material so the "intruding" (burning)
>material would not show chilling effects. Secondly, the temperatures and
>pressures are on two very different levels. The burning takes place at a
>few hundred degrees at essentially no pressure while igneous intrusions
>generally occur underground and higher temperatures and pressures, and any
>geologist will tell you that changes in pressure can have enormous
>implications on the subsequent processes.
Regardless of schist, granite or whatever, any mass burning of
thousands of corpses would create enough heat to alter the existing
regolithic material to such a degree that it would be noticable on
comparison to the general proximate material. It would not have to
show vitrification. It could, if material was there that would
vitrify, like silica sand, but it could be basically clay, which would
be fired to a certain noticable degree. What ever the general
regolithic make up of any area under investigation, any heat would
make it change.
The more I see your stuff on geology, the more I know you don't know
anything about it.
>The temperature itself would probably be too low to have any effect on the
>mineralogy of the regolith. Assuming it did, I would expect to see
>vitrification of any silica, however I would tend to doubt it.
>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 4 07:42:16 PST 1996
Article: 18778 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Warning to all Brother Aryan Warriors
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 13:20:36 GMT
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:
>In article <30DEC199509181566@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) writes:
>>In article , gmarquez@netcom.com (Richard Marquez) writes...
>>>kestrel@epix.net wrote:
>>>: Please be advised of the following warning:
>>>: For those of you who may not be aware of it but, all of those grocery
>>>: items marked with a K or a little u in a circle, are kosher and contain
>>>: traces of cat urine in them...
>>>
>>>Also be warned that an uppercase "R" in a circle, as well as the letters
>>>"TM" (upper or lower case) mean the same thing. Please watch for and avoid
>>>products marked with these symbols.
>> Actually, "R" in a circle means the Reverand Ron spit in it, and "TM"
>> means Tom Moran pissed on it. And clothes with an "LG" on the label
>> means that Les Griswold wore them for a week without washing them.
Yikes! I haven't even been following this article, and only checked it
out because the subject caught my eye and here I see my name being
used by some slithery little wimpy rag. These are pretty grotey words.
Maybe you should post responses to what irks you. Responses that deal
with the irking copy directly. Maybe you have to respond with the
school yard stuff because you flunked Chutzpah 101. Evidentally if you
could, you would have, but you didn't, which I take as a self
admission to yourself the irking copy is unchallengable, at least by
you. It takes more than those idiots in your Yashiva telling you how
brilliant you are. You are what you say. What you say is what you
learn. This is your record. Of course you are oblivious to shame, a
common characteristic for those who graduate from those institutes of
chutzpah where they actually teach Hebrews to say stupid things.
Yikes!
Posting slithery little words about another party, away from the
other party's postings. Next time you have something derogatory to say
about someone, say it his person.
Now maybe your the one who can set the record straight. I had heard
about these markings years ago, but never took the time to check out
if they represented what I heard they did. Since I see it posted out
here with no one denying it, maybe its true. The question I have is,
do the Jews get some kind of royalty compensation for this -
endorsement? I mean do they get a percentage on what is sold with the
marks?
>> So it's easy to shop once you know what all the symbols mean.
>I really wish you wouldn't make this so easy for them. Let the trashies spend
>the extra time -- and money -- avoiding kosher products. Granted, it means
>their food stamps won't go so far, but who cares?
>--------------------------------
>"Now, as to the sermon--a proud and arrogant man, such as yourself---with an
>admittedly admirable quality of didacticism about him---was given to doing
>research in the area of a certain disfiguring and degenerative disease. One
>day he contracted it himself. Since he had not yet developed a cure for the
>condition, he did take time out to regard himself in the mirror and say,
>'But on *me* it does look good.'"
> -- Roger Zelazny
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 4 08:37:58 PST 1996
Article: 24975 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Boats come in full - go out empty ...
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 13:11:50 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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except a pursers office loaded with useless U.S. $. As soon as the
world realizes that the stacks of paper can't be exchanged for
tangibles - the party's over.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 4 08:37:59 PST 1996
Article: 24976 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: U.S. Unemployment - 20% Now
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 13:12:52 GMT
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The medias give us the government stats. 5.7%
The averge number of people that register for unemployment insurance
each week is 300,000. This has been the average for 5 or 6 years.
Some of these people return to jobs before their insurance runs out.
Some find new jobs.
The average number of people said to find new jobs is 150,000 a month.
We could accuratley say that at least 100,000 people become unemployed
for ever, every week.
4 times 100,000 is 400,000 a month. Times 12 months for the year is
4,800,000. Times 4 years = 19,200,000.
For any of those who use up their unemployment funds and go off the
books, they are not included in the 5.7%.
Those on welfare are not included in the 5.7%.
Those who are chronically unemployed and don't get substinence are not
included in the 5.7%.
We can say the more accurate figure for U.S. unemployment is 20+%.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 4 08:38:00 PST 1996
Article: 24978 of alt.conspiracy
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: 75% of government revenue goes to paying interest
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 13:31:07 GMT
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As long ago as 5 years, N.Y. City had a debt of 21 billion dollars.
For every dollar it took in, 75 cents went to paying interest on its
debt, bonds, whatever. The situation is worse now.
The Federal Government is in the same fix. T Bills are technically
worthless. International debt will never be paid.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 4 08:38:00 PST 1996
Article: 24979 of alt.conspiracy
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: THE NECESSITY PRINCIPLE
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 13:42:49 GMT
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The world has it's back to the precipice. Enviromentally.
Population > consumerism > drain on the ecology > disaster. Anything
can set it off. Something will set it off. The grand awakening. Then
the consumerism will come to a screeching halt. The only thing being
exchanged will be that which expediates warding off further disaster.
Only necessity will rule. Nature works on necessity. In the ultimate,
necessity is necessity. Who and or what will determine the necessity?
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 4 17:38:23 PST 1996
Article: 18834 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No Zyclone - then DDT
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 23:47:51 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <4ceb4v$c2b@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>> >tom moran wrote:
>> ># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>> >## One truly memorable photograph is that of the fat SS-women
>> >## in Belsen, dumping skeletal corpses into a mass grave. I recently
>> >## scanned it, and Mr. Jamie McCarthy loaded it to Nizkor.
>>
>> Why don't you give us a extensive photographic survey of the "gas
>> chambers" and crematoria that could handle 10,000 people a day? Oh
>> thats right, there aren't any. What relevance does fat women have to
>> the assertions of millions put to death?
>Didn't we just go through this idiocy about photos of gas-chambers with
>Greg Raven? Were you playing hooky that day, or what, Moran? (Or is this
>simply another manifestation of your apparent photo fetish?) I would
>suggest, as a remedial "reading" lesson, that you might start with
>_Auschwitz: a history in photographs_ (ISBN 0-253-35581-8).
Where the hell have you been? Your brain is playing hooky. See my
report alt.rev. "Auschwitz: A history in photographs"
>In regards to the capacity of the crematoriums:
>"...The need for large-scale efficiency, to cope with the astounding
>number of corpses produced by the gas chambers, eventually led to the
>design and construction of new crematoria, and daily capacity rose from as
>low as six hundred forty eight per day (Mu"ller's 1942 figure) to a high
>of over ten thousand (Ho"ss, Gricksch. Request deathcamp.02,
>Gricksch.rpt, and jahrling.may43), but, as Feig tells us, the SS
>eventually had to employ large pyres and pits to dispose of the mounting
>pile of corpses:
>"As early as June 13, 1943, all was not well with the new installation.
>... Eventually the ovens seemed to fall apart. Crematorium Four failed
>completely after a short time and Crematoria Five had to be shut down
>repeatedly. (TWC, V:624) (Between 1945 and 1962 Polish officials found
>five manuscripts written by Sonderkommando members before their deaths.
>The published manuscripts and documents relate to the specific process of
>extermination at Birkenau, and provide detailed descriptions of the
>crematoria and gas chambers.)
>"The scientifically planned crematoria should have been able to handle the
>total project, but they could not. The whole complex had forty-six
>retorts, each with the capacity for three to five persons. The burning in
>a retort lasted about half an hour. It took an hour a day to clean them
>out. Thus it was theoretically possible to cremate about 12,000 corpses in
>twenty four hours or 4,380,000 a year. But the well-constructed crematoria
>fell far behind at a number of camps, and especially at Auschwitz in 1944.
>In August the total cremation reached a peak one day of 24,000, but still
>a bottleneck occurred. Camp authorities needed an economic and fast method
>of corpse disposal, so they again dug six huge pits beside Crematorium
>Five and reopened old pits in the wood. Thus, late in 1944, pit burning
>became the cheif method of corpse disposal. The pits had indentations at
>one end from which human fat drained off. To keep the pits burning, the
>stokers poured oil, alcohol, and large quantities of boiling human fat
>over the bodies.
>Source: ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/crematoria.faq
>As to the relevance of the "fat women" to the "millions put to death," I
>believe the context was in regards to the fallacious assertion that the
>prisoners' emanciated condition were caused, in part, by the destruction
>of Germany's distribution infrastructure. That and such destruction
>visited similiar hardships on the German populace. The mention of the
>_German_ "fat women" was, I believe, intended, to help dispell that
>canard.
I recognize all this from Hilberg. See my opions under "Where are the
mass graves".
>Mark
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 4 18:52:30 PST 1996
Article: 18835 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 23:55:57 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>Zyklon-B usually came in small granules. When it's released
>from a container into the air, it starts to rapidly release
>HCN, hydrogen cyanide.
>In Kremas I, II and III it was inserted via openings in the
>roof, in Kremas IV and V via openings in the side walls (these
>were in Auschwitz-Birkenau).
>In some of the smaller camps, other methods were used (Mauthausen
>and Sachsenhausen, for instance). In Natzweiler, a different
>generator was used. Possibly, the best source on the Nazi gas
>chambers is "Nazi Mass Murder", Yale Uni. Press, 1993.
Another source of authority published 50 years after the fact. Where
are the reasonably period reports? Everything out here seems to be
cited from reports from the last 10 years. Yea, yea, I know. Its new
information that wasn't uncovered until late. The more new stuff I
see, the more I realize what the Nuremberg trials didn't afford the
German defense.
>-Danny Keren.
>--
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>-Lu Xun.
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 5 07:18:39 PST 1996
Article: 18885 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: COMPU SERVE LIED
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 03:11:15 GMT
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According to CBS news, the German Government denies that it ask Compu
Serve to Bloch certain newgroups.
Compu Serve is controlled by Jewish owner H.R. Bloch.
So far just about 99% of the complaints and calls for censorship on
the internet have been by Jewish organizations, Jews making up less
than 2% of the U.S. population and about .001% of the world
population.
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 5 14:26:46 PST 1996
Article: 18922 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,can.general,bc.general,van.general,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Everybody Got Balls, it seems
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 11:14:46 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:10126 alt.revisionism:18922 can.general:64363 bc.general:35289 van.general:4659 soc.culture.usa:76026 soc.culture.jewish:23596
mebesius@sfu.ca wrote:
Reardless of all the witty little responses here, this guy makes a
point in the beginning of his post.
Heres another point. Names and threats are the result of not being
able to respond with direct argument - counter argument. In summary, a
sign of stupidity.
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 5 14:26:48 PST 1996
Article: 18938 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zioexaggeration = 200,000,000
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 16:01:10 GMT
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <4c8usk$928@zippy.cais.net>, tom moran wrote:
>[snip]
>>The Bloom's
>>concept of empiricism is summarized above, which if this was ever
>>taken as a prime example for empirical standards we would still be in
>>the dark ages. [...]
> Tommy Moran's concept of "thinking" is summarized in his article,
>which if this was ever taken as a prime example of thinking we would still
>be members of the Planariidae family. And pretty poor relations at that.
Stein's idea of empirical response is right here.
>-
-
>Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 6 11:31:31 PST 1996
Article: 19032 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: a counter FAQ
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 15:00:36 GMT
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ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
I would think that the deadly nature of the Zyklone B form found at
any camps would be expressed in the packaging that it was shipped in.
The only examples I have seen are those small card board or tin
cylinders. Not that it can't be deadly, but it seems that a good dose
under a certain duration would be required.
Were there any other packagings that it came in or were alleged to
have come in? I would think if it was intended to be used in mass
gassing of human beings, it would have been shipped in larger
containers that could be readily adapted to any introduction system.
What process is stated to have been used to transform it into gas? The
extent of my resaerch has not turned up any answers to this yet.
One fact mutually accepted by both camps of debating the Holocaust is
that it was used to ward off typhus inflicting parasites. In other
words, a vital necessity.
From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 6 12:06:00 PST 1996
Article: 25281 of alt.conspiracy
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: 75% of government revenue goes to paying interest
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 14:31:52 GMT
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Duluth@gnn.com (JeezOhPete) wrote:
>In article <4cgo3e$c7j@zippy.cais.net> tom moran wrote:
>> As long ago as 5 years, N.Y. City had a debt of 21 billion
>dollars.
>>For every dollar it took in, 75 cents went to paying interest on
>its
>>debt, bonds, whatever. The situation is worse now.
>> The Federal Government is in the same fix. T Bills are
>technically
>>worthless. International debt will never be paid.
>Really?!?!?!? Tell me something I dont know.
>>
I already have. Now you say something that most people don't know.
From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 6 22:58:08 PST 1996
Article: 19079 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No Zyclone - then DDT
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 1996 03:58:41 GMT
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hmazal@txdirect.net, San Antonio wrote:
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>> dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <4c6gio$q9s@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>
>> * I notice that Hilberg's book was first published in the U.S. in
>> 1985. So I don't know what it said before that, in its original text.
>If Mr. Moran can't fantacize, he resorts to outright lies:
>_The Destruction of European Jews_
> Raul Hilberg
> c. 1961, Quadrangle Books, Inc.,
> 12 East Delaware Place
> Chicago, IL 60611
>What does Mr. Moran do besides look stupid when he posts such
>idiocies?
Look around the group where I clarified whether or not it is the
version I have.
THE DESTRUCTION OF EUROPEAN JEWS
Raul Hilberg
"First Published in the United States of America 1985 by
Holmes & Meier Publishers, Inc.
30 Irving Place
New York, N.Y. 10003"
"Copyright C (in circle) 1985 by Raul Hilberg
All rights reserved"
>Harry W. Mazal OBE
From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan 7 10:03:17 PST 1996
Article: 19148 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: jail sentences and holocaust denial
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 1996 12:54:37 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON KEITH MURRAY) wrote:
>In article <30ED4928.128D@niven.imsweb.net> Bud writes:
>>do you think it's right for holocaust deniers to be sentenced to prison
>>terms for their views?
>Not on your life.
This is what Morrison puts out here, but if we should go by his posts
and responses we could the idea that he's not saying what he really
thinks. Sort of like the ADL saying they are the "staunchest
supporters of free speech".
>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca
From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan 7 10:03:19 PST 1996
Article: 19155 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 80% of U.S. artisans would be Jewish if it wasn't for ...
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 1996 15:55:30 GMT
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anakin@pinc.com (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:
>In article <4ccpku$vqm@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> anakin@pinc.com (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <4cbnl3$pg4@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>> >> "two reasons". One is because they "were systematically kept out
>> >> of unions" and because they go onto higher "levels".
>> >>
>> >> Danny Mittleman
>> >> alt.revisionism
>> >> "Zioexaggeration = 200,000,000"
>>
>> >He didn't say that. You are a first class liar.
>> He didn't? Then what did he say or imply?
>Ask him what he implied. You claimed that he gave an 80% figure. That is a
>lie. That jews were/are systematically excluded is not fabrication, but a
>fact.
>For you to imply that you are quoting Mr. Mittleman is irresponsible.
>> Again - your name is not Rajiv K.Gandhi, is it?
>No it is the name of the other guy who looks just like me and has a
>username just like mine. What do you think? Better yet, why should you
>care?
Oh, I get it. Your really Danny Mittleman.
From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan 7 15:53:05 PST 1996
Article: 19181 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No Zyclone - then DDT
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 1996 19:58:36 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <4ccp9j$vpd@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> Question 1. How come all these "historians" didn't wise up the people
>> to the number of 4 million, a number popularly known to the public?
>First, do you have some difficulty in believing these "historians" (sic)
>were (or are), in fact, historians? If so, why? Second, what do you mean,
>exactly, by "wise up" to the those in the general public, such as
>yourself, who erroneously assume (or assumed) that four million Jew died
>at Auschwitz? Are you implying that since some in the general public hold
>(or held) such an erronious assumption that the historians who are
>involved in reserching the Holocaust should _also_ hold this assumption?
>If so, why?
>But to answer your question: Could it be, perhaps, _because_ these
>historians _are_ historians who are deeply involved in researching the
>Holocaust that they _know_ (as best as possible) the accurate number of
>Jews who were murdered at Auschwitz? (Gee, what a concept: that those most
>involved in a subject might just know what they are talking about!)
>> Question 2. How did the public get this figure in their heads.
>> (Your not going to be so stupid as to assert that the public isn't
>> under the general illusion of the 4,000,000 number, are you?)
>Gee, Moran, I dunno. Could it be that some newspapers might have reported
>the incorrect figure and some people read those figures? And not taking
>enough interest into going into deeper detail of the Holocaust and its
>history (or seeing any corrections that might have been later published by
>those newspapers), that this incorrect figure stuck in their minds?
>As for the _entire_ general public being under the incorrect assumption
>that four million Jews were murdered at Auschwitz, how do _you_ know that
>they _are_? (I for one, never recalled hearing that _four_ million were
>murdered at Auschwitz from _my_ general, and somewhat supercifial,
>education of the Holocaust.) Even so, do you see some problem in people
>finding out that such an assumption was incorrect? Like most things, one
>gains a more complete knowledge of a subject when one studies it in
>greater detail.
>Is this not the case with you? (I say this in _complete_ sarcasm as it has
>become quite apparant that you do _not_!)
Now this is very interesting. The Holocaust clones are very adiment on
selling the 6,000,000 figure, but when it comes to the 4,000,000
number they are even more adiment on denying it. Denying even that it
was ever a popular known figure. I can see why. All these people out
there having this notion of 4,000,000 and then all of a sudden its
1,000,000 or less. I can see how your terrified of the credibility
question. Thats the way it goes, once one thing can be shown to be
bogus the rest comes under suspicion. You and Marty and the rest can
not change what is commonly held nor can you change the revised
numbers. All one has to do is show people the articles from the N.Y.
and L.A. Times about the revision and its all over for the rest.
Scream away.
>>
>> Demand 1. Besides, Hilberg*, list a number of sources that say what
>> you say they say, that historians have always given the 1 million
>> number, "right from the beginning", your words.
>I do believe this information has been provided to you time and time
>again. But perhaps because it requires a bit of _effort_ on your part you
>haven't read up on this? Do you, perhaps, think you have the "right" to
>demand to be spoon-fed the answers? Tsk tsk. Such intellectual laziness.
>(Not to mention disigenuity.) Sounds like a _personal_ problem to me,
>Moran, you slacker.
>> Demand 2. Document were any of these "historians" corrected the
>> erroneous number.
>See answer to "Demand 1," slacker.
>Perhaps if you stopped your pathetic whining and _read_ some of the
>numerous texts which have _already_ been listed for you in past posts you
>would find the answers you seek? What a concept, eh: Reading.
>You're simply pathetic, Moran: A whiney, slacking, denier who demands to
>be spoon-fed all the answers to his idiotic "questions" ad nauseam. And
>you wonder why people laugh at you?
>Mark
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan 7 15:53:06 PST 1996
Article: 19183 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No Zyclone - then DDT
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 1996 15:53:18 GMT
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anakin@pinc.com (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:
>In article <4ccp9j$vpd@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <4c6gio$q9s@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>writes...
>> >>
>> >> You may want to call revisionist "crazy", but you will have to admit
>> >>that they are the ones who started the question that has thus far
>> >>resulted in the reduction of said victims at Auschwitz from 4 million
>> >>to 1 million, and the new acceptance that other things did not take
>> >>place. It wasn't you. It will never be you, and you will be the last
>> >>to initiate anything of like.
>>
>> > Your facts are wrong on this point Tom. You cannot provide evidence to
>> > prove this point because no evidence exists.
>>
>> How do you know that "no evidence exists"? How do you account for the
>> numbers being reduced?
>>
>See, if you could read, you would realize that the following paragraph
>indicates that the number was never really pegged at 4 million.
>> > Western historians have said about 1 million were killed at Auschwitz
>> > right from the beginning. They have never wavered on this point. This
>> > has already been explained to you in a.r. Why do you keep posting
>> > incorrect information without addressing and refuting the facts
>> > presented to you? This is dishonest Tom. Either that or it is
>> > stupidity.
>>
>> Question 1. How come all these "historians" didn't wise up the people
>> to the number of 4 million, a number popularly known to the public?
>I don't know, were you dropped on your head repeatedly when you were a
>kid? The number was never 4 million. It was always 1 million. Not 4
>million. 1 million. That's 1,000,000 not 4,000,000.
Keep telling yourself what your saying here over and over again and
maybe even you will believe it.
>> Question 2. How did the public get this figure in their heads.
>> (Your not going to be so stupid as to assert that the public isn't
>> under the general illusion of the 4,000,000 number, are you?)
>Read the archives at Nizkor. There is a concise explanation in there
>regarding the four million figure, which was never seriously excepted by
>anybody with a normal brain mass.
>>
>> Demand 1. Besides, Hilberg*, list a number of sources that say what
>> you say they say, that historians have always given the 1 million
>> number, "right from the beginning", your words.
>Nizkor. Corroborating references are provided therein.
>> Demand 2. Document were any of these "historians" corrected the
>> erroneous number.
>Nizkor. Corroborating references are provided therein.
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 8 06:37:41 PST 1996
Article: 19241 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I Only Had Orders To Pour in the Gas'
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 15:29:55 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>From the testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Wilhelm Bahr:
>[Quoted in "Truth Prevails", ISBN 1-879437-00-7, p. 99].
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>Q: Is it correct that you have gassed 200 Russian POW's with Zyklon-B?
>A: Yes, on orders.
Q. How did you pour in a gas?
A. Ah, er, ah, well ah.
>Q: Where did you do that?
>A: In Neuengamme [concentration camp].
>Q: On whose order?
>A: The local doctor, Dr. Von Bergmann.
Q. Did he give you the orders directly?
A. Ah yes and or no.
>Q: With what gas?
>A: With Prussic acid [another name for Zyklon-B].
Q. Could you tellus what kind of packaging it came in?
A. It came in these small tim cans.
Q. How much did you pour in?
A. Well we had about a case of them, maybe 2,3, ...
>Q: How long did the Russians take to die?
>A: I do not know. I only obeyed orders.
>Q: How long did it take to gas the Russians?
A. You mean to drop the gas in?
Q. No I mean for them to die.
>A: I returned after two hours and they were all dead.
Q. Then you don't know exactly how long it took?
A. No.
>Q: For what purpose did you go away?
>A: That was during lunch hour.
>Q: You left for your lunch and came back afterwards?
>A: Yes.
Q. And who else was there?
A. Ah, there was ...
>Q: Were they dead when you came back?
>A: Yes.
>Q: Did you look at their bodies?
>A: Yes, because I had to load them.
Q. And what did their bodies look like?
A. Well they were ...
Q. Did you wear any protective clothing to ward off any residual
poison that would be clinging to their bodies?
A. Ah, no. We just poured it in with our bare hands and we did not
wear any gloves or protective masks for this or when unloading the
bodies.
Q. And where did you take the bodies?
A. Well we ...
>Q: Why did you apply the gas to the Russians?
>A: I only had orders to pour in the gas and I do not know anything
> about it.
Q. You mean that you just did it on orders without objecting?
A. Yes
>
The one thing that seems to stand out with a lot of these testimonies
is the incomplete nature of any inquiry. As in the "Leleko
Interegation" there is a real void in the interegators quest for
details. Should we compare a series of these inquiries to some from
other examples, other than those offered about the Holocaust, I think
a real difference would be noticable.
>-Danny Keren.
>--
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>-Lu Xun.
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 8 06:37:42 PST 1996
Article: 19243 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Reverse answers to: The Great Revisionist Challenge, Take 2
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 1996 14:18:56 GMT
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t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON KEITH MURRAY) wrote:
>(Originally posted October 30, 1995. Still no takers)
>A recent reply I made to Mr. Baron has reminded me of a challenge I made
>sometime back that was never taken up. Now I know why it was not taken up,
>and you denier types know why you didn't take it up, but for the new people
>on both sides and the spectators, let us try it again.
>********************THE CHALLENGE**************************
>You forget that there is an accepted history of the Holocaust.
>You forget about nit-picking and semantic games. Your challenge
>is to start from the beginning.
>Taking the evidence available, formulate YOUR version of what
>happened during that period. Present a thesis that presents
>a reasonable, supportable and consistent theory about what
>did happen. Some questions you have to answer might include
>the changes in populations before vs after the war, Himmler's
>speeches, diaries of various Nazi government officials, the
>documents and the physical evidence. Why did the SS blow up
>the Kremas at Auschwitz and so on.
>Now, to meet the criteria for reasonable, supportable and
>consistent you are of course obliged to avoid unrealistic
>arguments. For example, suggesting that around 6 million
>Jews were abducted by aliens is not reasonable. Saying that
>they and their descendants are living in the former Soviet
>Union is not supportable since the rusting of the Iron Wall.
>Saying on the one hand that the prisoners were well treated
>and then saying that the guards intentionally allowed them to
>starve is not consistent.
>Many deniers, Mr Baron being the most recent, have compared
>Holocaust revisionism to the scientific revolutions that broke
>traditionally held views. If this is the case then they should
>have no objection to using the evidence to formulate their own
>theory to counter that currently held. That is, after all,
>how those scientific revolutions happened.
>So go ahead. Do something positive instead of negative. Imagine
>the accolades from revisionists around the world if you can manage
>this feat. Imagine the humiliation of the "Exterminationists".
>All yours if you can answer the challege.
>NOTE: Once you propose your theory, you will, of course, have to defend it.
1. You say that the Germans blew up the kremas? How come a tour
map supplied by the Panstwowe Muzeum w Oswiecimiu shows four
crematoria to be maintained? The book "Auschwitz: A History in
Photographs" shows what appears to be all together almost half the 46
retorts said to have been cremation ovens, above said to have been
destroyed by the SS.
2. It also show a picture of a building under construction and
said to be a Crematoria taken by the SS. It also shows other buildings
said to be Crematoria / gas chambers, all said to have been taken by
the SS. Why would the SS take pictures of these alleged facilities?
3. Where would one find a comprehensive photographic / forensic
survey and reconstruction of any facilities for mass extermination
said to have been destroyed? The kind of thing one should expect to be
submitted to any trial to show guilt, like Nuremberg.
4. Where can one find any photos or reconstruction diagrams that
would show they were built for and capable of exterminating the
numbers in secret? Especially in an area that is barely one quarter
mile square.
5. Holocaust books cite 46 "retorts". They also cite from 12 to
24 thousand people a day were put to death and all evidence was
destroyed by cremation. Where did they put the bodies after gassing
while waiting for the cremation process?
6. For those thousands said to have been cremated in open pits
just outside of the camp grounds, how were they transported there? Do
you know if any probes were made to locate these alleged mass
cremation sites. Since one probe was cited already out here, at
Treblinka, do you know of any that were performed at Auschwitz?
7. How could one verify that pre-war population figures for Jews
in Europe aren't gross exaggerations? It would be necessary to show
that there were enough Jews in Europe in order to maintain the
6,000,000, right?
8. Why is it that there were 3,000,000 Jews in Poland, exceding
the numbers for other nations by 3, 4, and 5 times? A map presented by
Bauer shows that Jews were in Germany for 1600 years, Hungary 1900
years, Romania 1800 years, France 1950 years and yet for Poland where
they are said to have been for only 800 years, it ended up with more
Jews than the rest all together.
9. Anticipating a certain reply to no. 8, why were the Jews only
in Poland for 800 years and so much longer for the other nations?
10. Bauers book states in his map "Some early records of Jewish
life in Europe before 1600" , "This map gives 19 examples of
comtemporary records mentioning Jews before 1600."
Some examples are "1229, Munich A Jew appears in court as a witness
during a trial", Brussels "1310. A Jewsih scribe completes a fine
illuminated manuscript", "1204. Vienna. The existence of a synagogue".
Do you think these types of examples are sufficient to lead up to
asserting that over 9 million Jews existed in Europe by 1939?
>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 8 06:37:44 PST 1996
Article: 19254 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: COMPU SERVE LIED
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 16:14:27 GMT
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Fri, 5 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>>
>> According to CBS news, the German Government denies that it ask Compu
>> Serve to Bloch certain newgroups.
>> Compu Serve is controlled by Jewish owner H.R. Bloch.
>> So far just about 99% of the complaints and calls for censorship on
>> the internet have been by Jewish organizations, Jews making up less
>> than 2% of the U.S. population and about .001% of the world
>> population.
>OK, Mr. Moran, please provide some proof for your assertions... do the
>Christian Coalition members who are calling for net censorship fall into
>your 99%?
This could be. But I have not seen any of it in the press. I have seen
5 or 6 articles about Jewish calls for censorship, including a number
of paid advertisments inciting censorship sponsored by Jewsih
organizations. I have not seen one by any other. So the fact remains,
the 2% have a 99% record for standing out, at least in the N.Y. and
L.A. Times. Examples have been posted out here, and are here on the
screen at this time.
I might point out that one group is active other than Jews directly,
which is the Scientologists. They seem to be taking a back door route
by challenging negative exposure on copywrite clauses. The
"International Association of Scientologists" has also, for some
reason taken on a campaign about Germany, Nazism and Jews, having
placed 5 or 6 full page ads in the N.Y. Times on the topics.
>And by the way, do you even know what groups CompuServe blocked? The
>controversy was not over politically-oriented groups like
>alt.revisionism, but over the availability of pornographic images through
>some of the alt.sex and alt.binaries newsgroups. German prosecutors DID
>notify CompuServe that some of the images carried on these groups
>violated German decency laws, but the action taken by CompuServe was
>apparently initiated by the company. You seem to see duplicity where
>there is none. Bad judgement, yes--a Jewish conspiracy, no.
There is a book called "The Apocolypse Culture" or "The Armageddon
.." something, the exact title I don't recall at this time, which is
a poi pourri of chapters written by different people, one of which was
written by a Shapiro or Schwartz, his exact name I don't recall either
right now. In his chapter he wrote about pornography, in which he
alleged that the majority of pornographic material was put out by Jews
and Catholics. I directed a letter to him through the publisher, not
having his personal address, asking him where he got his idea that
Catholics were highly instrumental in ponography, of which I never got
a reply. Why I didn't get a reply I don't know. It was either due to
his not getting the correspondence or him not responding.
I recognized that it is widely known that Jews are into pornography,
and that they have an attitude about Catholics, and this is why I
tried to pin him down on what he said.
>By the way, I think that Compuserve was wrong to take this action--it
>sets a disturbing precedent. But before you start seeing a Jewish
>conspiracy behind everything, Mr. Moran, you might try getting the basic
>facts of what happened straight.
This is the gist Marty. Establishing a precident. Conspiricies
practice instilling precedences to lead to their own agendas.
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 8 09:30:11 PST 1996
Article: 19277 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No Zyclone - then DDT
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 14:37:03 GMT
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mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <4ceb4v$c2b@zippy.cais.net>, tom moran wrote:
>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>You don't know anything, as far as I can tell from your articles.
>>>Why don't you ask Al Baron... he's doing "research" now!
>>
>> Is this your method of dealing with your students? Of course you
>>have your exclusion principle for civility.
> Tom, if this were a classroom he could simply flunk you out - and
>you'd deserve it. While I've criticized Dr. Keren in the past for going
>overboard on the rhetoric, what he said above is as civil as one can be
>under the circumstances - and I don't object to anything he said in the
>rest of the text you quoted, either.
> What Dr. Keren said is hyperbole, I grant you. For example, I'm sure
>you do know that 2+2=4, though your two-square-feet-per-tree statement
>proves that more complex mathematics is beyond your limited mental
>capacity. I am _not_ exaggerating when I state that I have seen quite a
>few prize idiots posting on this newsgroup - Doyal, Tim McCarthy, and J.
>Lupton come to mind - but you win first prize. And that _is_ an empirical
>observation.
> By the way, could you please tell us again where Shakespeare said,
>"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than speak, and remove all
>doubt?"
Look it up in some quote book. I remember coming across it when I was
a kid. Whats your problem? You don't believe it is a Shakespeare
statement?
>--
>Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 8 09:30:12 PST 1996
Article: 19278 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No Zyclone - then DDT
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 14:55:08 GMT
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jabacon@ibm.net wrote:
>In <4ccp9j$vpd@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>> Question 1. How come all these "historians" didn't wise up the people
>>to the number of 4 million, a number popularly known to the public?
>> Question 2. How did the public get this figure in their heads.
>>(Your not going to be so stupid as to assert that the public isn't
>>under the general illusion of the 4,000,000 number, are you?)
"20%" leaves 80% left. The problem with taking a poll is that news
papers won't touch it, unless it's sponsoered by Jews. Try it on
campus and Hillel will be there shouting it down and the staff will be
there cowering. Anyway I take note of your thinking 20% is the meat of
the story. 'Oh look. I see one black grain of sand on the beach,
therefore it must all be black'. Typical.
>'Fraid I'm going to be stupid enough to assert that the public isn't under that
>illusion. Studies have proven that nearly 20% of the population cannot identify
>Auschwitz as a camp involved in the Holocaust, nor can they quote the TOTAL
>figure of Holocaust Jewish victims at 6,000,000. This gives little credence
>to me that the public is capable of quoting a 4,000,000 figure (or any figure)
>for the Auschwitz deaths.
>The original source of the 4,000,000 figure is, of course (as has been mentioned
>HOW many times in this newsgroup), from Poland. This figure has routinely
>been beaten into the ground by the historians... the only ones keeping it alive
>now are, of course, the Holocaust revisionists themselves, who then get notified
>to reality almost immediately EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Who would you say is the most responsible for waving the Holocaust
story? It may be that the Poles were the ones who came up with the
4,000,000, or it could be the Soviets, or both, as it is given out
here, and given by Nizkor and Simon Weisenthal. I take note of the
specification of "communist" always being included, as if this is
relevant for some reason.
One thing is certain, it wasn't them who have been flailing around
with the saturation of any numbers. There is only one group that is
obsessed with saturating the public with the story in any form.
I take note that the number is still being pressed as 6,000,000, and
when this has to fall, who are you going to blame it on? Already I
recall seeing a figure given as 5 million, and accepted by some of the
Holocaust obsessed.
>Justin Bacon
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 8 11:27:57 PST 1996
Article: 19280 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: COMPU SERVE LIED
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 15:14:56 GMT
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EEGG87C@prodigy.com (David Fortrel) wrote:
>>>>OK, Mr. Moran, please provide some proof for your assertions... do the
>>>>Christian Coalition members who are calling for net censorship fall
>into
>>>>your 99%?
>The Christian Coalitiion calls for censorship everywhere of faggots and
>child pornography. Nothing more, nothing less.
>The j-ws want censorship control so that they can spew their social-
>controlling anti-White & anti-Black venom. What they cannot control
>through legislation (control in Congress----most legislators are afraid
>of being called anti-semitic) or litigation (the ACLU), they buy. Witness
>the purchase of Capital Cities & ABC by michael EISNER and the proposed
>purchase of other communication gateways by edgar BRONFMAN. The most
>vocal spokesman for total net censorship before Congress is steven
>SPIELBERG. In Connecticut the j-ws are already successful in that
>calling someone a kike is now a felony (hate/thought-crime). I suppose
>they'll extradite the posters from Uganda, no??
>DAVE de LaBRAVE, PROVOST CL1A
>CICERO NEW (ARMED) MILITIA
It is interesting. Jews don't mind so much being called "kikes" as
much as they hate recaps of the their activities. I never use terms
myself, but I have noticed a certain Mona Lisa smile cross their faces
when they are called names. It gives them the opportunity to tell them
selves the dubbing party is jealous. Its the facts that really sets
them off.
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 8 11:27:58 PST 1996
Article: 19284 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.correct,alt.feminazis,alt.mens-rights,soc.men,soc.rights.human,nz.general,nz.politics,soc.culture.new-zealand
Subject: Re: freedom of speech is indivisible
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 15:40:59 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:19284 alt.politics.correct:71308 alt.feminazis:6877 alt.mens-rights:16035 soc.men:105416 soc.rights.human:27653 soc.culture.new-zealand:34192
gazit@lear.cs.duke.edu (Hillel) wrote:
>###History is written by the victors, whether the victors are European
>###colonialists or World War Two Allies.
>%%Do you think that the Old Testament was written by victors?
>In article <30eb7e68.2746675@news.waikato.ac.nz> shg@waikato.ac.nz writes:
>>Do you think that the Old Testament counts as "History"?
>It is as close to "History" as any other source that was
>written in that time.
You mean the part in "Chronicles" where it says that David mustered up
230,000 troops, killed about 200,000 enemies including thousands of
horsemen and charioteers?
Or the part about Moses and the the plagues on Egypt, or Noah's ark,
or Jonah, or ...?
So far in the last year I have seen at least four articles or features
in establishment press about biblical scholars tending to hold hardly
anything credible in the Bible.
Most, excepting Jews, don't even believe there ever was a David.
In fact biblical scholars have to resort to checking out anything in
the Bible by checking the records of other societies.
If you weren't so ethnocentically insane and more intelligent you
might have delved into and been able to recognize that the historical
endeavors of say, the Greeks nad the Romans, makes the Bible look like
it was written by a child.
A historical debacle is at hand, and it's 'biblical revisionsim'.
Your putting the word "History" inside quote marks is, ah, well, ah,
'interesting'.
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 9 14:22:22 PST 1996
Article: 19410 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 14:34:22 GMT
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jabacon@ibm.net wrote:
>In <4cblcb$p1g@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>> All of the above? Some accounts are that it was dropped in
>>through openings in the roof as pellets. Some accounts have it being
>>poured in through portals on the side of the buildings. What happened
>>to the pellets or powder? Did the dry form suddenly start to turn to
>>fumes? Some accounts allege there were special introductory systems.
>>How do you put pellets or powder in through shower heads? Was it a
>>liquid? Did they mix it into liquid after it got to the camps? What
>>kind of containers was it shipped in? Are those little card board
>>containers the only examples? For those claims that have it introduced
>>openings in the sides of buildings was it scattered in over the heads
>>of the people inside or was it just dumped in to spill out at the
>>immediate area of the opening?
>1. The showers were not introductory systems for the gas. Rather they were
>used to deceive the Jews to believe they were going to take showers. This is,
>of course, well documented. (as far as I know the gas was never introduced in
>a liquid form -- what is your source for this belief?)
Thats what you say now, but this was not the story years ago. It also
used to be contended that the victims were given mach bars of soap
made of stone.
>2. Different methods were used to introduce the gas -- depending on the
>facility in question. No universal plan was ever specifically designed for
>the design of gas chambers.
You would be more correct to say that introductory systems were
fantacized to conform with certain features on buildings used for
various purposes, like showers, with water, which it is admitted there
were. See "Auschwitz: A History in Photographs", alt.rev.
>3. Pellets would react when exposed to air to form the poisonous gas.
At what rate? Right away? Or disipate over a long period of time?
>Justin
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 9 14:22:23 PST 1996
Article: 19412 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: COMPU SERVE LIED
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 15:14:37 GMT
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jabacon@ibm.net wrote:
>In <4cmaco$tat@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>>OK, Mr. Moran, please provide some proof for your assertions...
>> This could be. But I have not seen any of it in the press. I have seen
>>5 or 6 articles about Jewish calls for censorship, including a number
>>of paid advertisments inciting censorship sponsored by Jewsih
>>organizations. I have not seen one by any other. So the fact remains,
>>the 2% have a 99% record for standing out, at least in the N.Y. and
>>L.A. Times. Examples have been posted out here, and are here on the
>>screen at this time.
>Mr. Moran you don't seem to understand what the word "proof" means.
"Proof" is the others word, right?
>1. Your 'feeling' of the percentage Jews have asked for censorship is not proof.
'Feeling' is your stressed word. I didn't express a "feeling" I
presented examples, and specified certain publications.
>2. For your statement to matter in the slightest, I would like you to confirm
>that you do -- indeed -- read every single word and article in the NY and LA
>Times. Until such time your assertion that those publications have a 99%
>track record against Jews is unsubstantiated. (this means it is not proof)
"Every single word"? And where did I assert "at track record against
Jews". I asserted a track record.
>3. For something to be "proof" it would have to have some actual statistics
>behind it. You would have to show me that you have successfully tracked down
>EVERY SINGLE (MAJOR) ATTEMPT AT CENSORSHIP ON THE INTERNET and
>attributed its root cause before you can say to me that you have "proof" of
>the 99% figure you blurted out to the world at large.
>> I recognized that it is widely known that Jews are into pornography,
>>and that they have an attitude about Catholics, and this is why I
>>tried to pin him down on what he said.
>I would have to say there are far more Catholics involved in pornography than
>there are Jews. (now, note, that's' just a gut statement on my part -- I have
>not conducted any solid studies on the matter)
I take "note". Is this "gut statement" anything like a gut "feeling"?
>I think his statement most likely originates from the fact that a majority of
>pornography originates from the United States (something about our freedom
>of speech laws) -- and that Catholics and their associated religious splinter
>groups exist in the majority here. In fact, Catholics publish the majority of
>pornographic magazines in this country. On the other hand -- just like
>the owner of CompuServe does not speak for all Jews when he bans a
>pornographic newsgroup -- it is unlikely these people speak, directly, for
>the majority of Christians either.
We'll just wait for your "proof".
>Meanwhile, back to historical revisionism...
>Justin Bacon
>BTW - I agree you with you 100% that the crux of the issue here is whether
>censorship is appropriate or not. Well, I do not believe the gov't should ever
>pass laws restricting who can access those newsgroups. However, it IS
>CompuServe's right (for whatever reason) to decide that they don't want those
>newsgroups transgressing on their private property.
I would say it is better to have the "private property" owners say
what will be "transgressing" on their persons. I take note of your
"(for whatever reasons)".
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 9 14:22:24 PST 1996
Article: 19413 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: jail sentences and holocaust denial
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 15:37:54 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>Bud wrote:
># do you think it's right for holocaust deniers to be sentenced to
># prison terms for their views?
>NO.
If the revisionist want to come to Brown U. are you ready to stand up
for their rights?
>-Danny Keren.
>--
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>-Lu Xun.
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 9 14:22:24 PST 1996
Article: 19414 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: jail sentences and holocaust denial
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 15:39:19 GMT
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <30ED4928.128D@niven.imsweb.net>,
>Bud wrote:
>>do you think it's right for holocaust deniers to be sentenced to prison
>>terms for their views?
> Absolutely not. Quite aside from the principal objection that it a
>violation of their rights, it doesn't even achieve its intended goal.
What about being charged as "racist" and "anti-Semite"?
> Posted and emailed.
>--
>Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 9 16:17:19 PST 1996
Article: 25795 of alt.conspiracy
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: 75% of government revenue goes to paying interest
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 14:19:34 GMT
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wjb3@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
>Henry Ayre wrote:
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>
>>> As long ago as 5 years, N.Y. City had a debt of 21 billion dollars.
>>>For every dollar it took in, 75 cents went to paying interest on its
>>>debt, bonds, whatever. The situation is worse now.
>>> The Federal Government is in the same fix. T Bills are technically
>>>worthless. International debt will never be paid.
>>You are right, of course. Yet the value (price) of both short-term paper
>>and T-Bonds has been climbing steadily, thus producing lower interest
>>rates. This is rather hallucinating. Don't the bond buyers really care
>>about the situation? Apparently not. They must see things differently.
>>Apparently they are convinced that the **process** will continue on for
>>an indefinite period of time, no matter how distorted and illogical it
>>is. Will they suddenly awake as a group at, say, 2:43 PM some Thursday
>>afternoon and suddenly make a mad dash for the exits? I don't know. This
>>whole situation is a first for mankind so we have no model on which to
>>base our ideas. H. Ayre.
> ...except for one thing:
> Anyone who is now holding that paper will strictly deserve what they
>get when the whip comes down, and I will not feel sorry for them.
> "Let `em eat brakes."
Here, here!
How can you feel sorry for failed greed?
>Billy
>http://www.mindspring.com/~wjb3/free/free.html
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 9 16:17:20 PST 1996
Article: 25796 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: 75% of government revenue goes to paying interest
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 14:20:49 GMT
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wjb3@mindspring.com (Billy Beck) wrote:
>Henry Ayre wrote:
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>
>>> As long ago as 5 years, N.Y. City had a debt of 21 billion dollars.
>>>For every dollar it took in, 75 cents went to paying interest on its
>>>debt, bonds, whatever. The situation is worse now.
>>> The Federal Government is in the same fix. T Bills are technically
>>>worthless. International debt will never be paid.
>>You are right, of course. Yet the value (price) of both short-term paper
>>and T-Bonds has been climbing steadily, thus producing lower interest
>>rates. This is rather hallucinating. Don't the bond buyers really care
>>about the situation? Apparently not. They must see things differently.
>>Apparently they are convinced that the **process** will continue on for
>>an indefinite period of time, no matter how distorted and illogical it
>>is. Will they suddenly awake as a group at, say, 2:43 PM some Thursday
>>afternoon and suddenly make a mad dash for the exits? I don't know. This
>>whole situation is a first for mankind so we have no model on which to
>>base our ideas. H. Ayre.
> ...except for one thing:
> Anyone who is now holding that paper will strictly deserve what they
>get when the whip comes down, and I will not feel sorry for them.
> "Let `em eat brakes."
>Billy
>http://www.mindspring.com/~wjb3/free/free.html
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 10 09:50:16 PST 1996
Article: 19506 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran, Shakespeare scholar-at-large
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 14:36:39 GMT
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mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <4crdd6$gre@zippy.cais.net>, tom moran wrote:
>>mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>> By the way, could you please tell us again where Shakespeare said,
>>>"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than speak, and remove all
>>>doubt?"
>>
>> Look it up in some quote book.
> I did - two of them. Neither Bartlett's nor Oxford's Modern had it.
>>I remember coming across it when I was
>>a kid. Whats your problem? You don't believe it is a Shakespeare
>>statement?
As I said, I recall it from when I was a kid. I have the word out to
check it. I could be wrong. If so, would it be a big boo-boo, a medium
boo-boo or a little boo-boo? Put a "<" next to the one you think.
Nevertheless, 'A quote is a quote is a quote and by whoever it might
smell just so sweet.'
> Thanks to the magic of technology, I know it's not a Shakespeare
>statement. Incite your rigii to
> http://the-tech.mit.edu/Shakespeare/search.html
>Do a text search on the complete works of Shakespeare like I did. It's
>not there, Tommy.
> Obviously, you should have listened to your own advice.
>--
>Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 10 13:59:02 PST 1996
Article: 19521 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: FREUDIAN ADMISSION of INADEQUACY?
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:34:09 GMT
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Van Alstine
under alt.revisionisim
"No Zyclone - then DDT"
"Moran, I suggest you quit while your behind and save yourself
further embarrassment and ridicule."
"Ridicule"? Why not just respond directly to the material?
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 10 13:59:03 PST 1996
Article: 19522 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I found it--this place for me!
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:37:59 GMT
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jabacon@ibm.net wrote:
>In <30ED6A5B.7D94@niven.imsweb.net>, Bud writes:
>> To me it seems that while they might not always be correct or
>>accurate, the revisionists generally seem more apt to agree to present
>>their arguments in the most factual manner, quoting sources, etc.,
>>whereas the proponents of the holocaust rendition of history engage in
>>far too much accusation and name-calling.
>You obviously haven't spent much time reading this newsgroup.
Obviously enough time to recognize the fact, that is documented on the
group at this time.
>Justin Bacon
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 10 14:48:25 PST 1996
Article: 19521 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: FREUDIAN ADMISSION of INADEQUACY?
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:34:09 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <4d10g6$cjc@zippy.cais.net>
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Van Alstine
under alt.revisionisim
"No Zyclone - then DDT"
"Moran, I suggest you quit while your behind and save yourself
further embarrassment and ridicule."
"Ridicule"? Why not just respond directly to the material?
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 10 14:48:26 PST 1996
Article: 19522 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I found it--this place for me!
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:37:59 GMT
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jabacon@ibm.net wrote:
>In <30ED6A5B.7D94@niven.imsweb.net>, Bud writes:
>> To me it seems that while they might not always be correct or
>>accurate, the revisionists generally seem more apt to agree to present
>>their arguments in the most factual manner, quoting sources, etc.,
>>whereas the proponents of the holocaust rendition of history engage in
>>far too much accusation and name-calling.
>You obviously haven't spent much time reading this newsgroup.
Obviously enough time to recognize the fact, that is documented on the
group at this time.
>Justin Bacon
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 10 23:27:18 PST 1996
Article: 25976 of alt.conspiracy
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics,alt.conspiracy
Subject: NEWT, HES FOR ISRAEL
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 22:45:22 GMT
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Newt Gingrich is buddies with the Tofflers, authors of the psycobabble
ridden "The Third Wave". The Tofflers have a history of getting their
stuff in the press for Ziocauses.
Newt's wife is acting as agent for Israeli buisness interests.
Newt held up funding to a national security bill because he wanted it
to include twelve million dollars for the CIA to use to subvert the
Irani gavernment - Israel's enemy.
Probably a whole lot of other stuff.
Newts a little boy.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 11 14:17:08 PST 1996
Article: 19655 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: jail sentences and holocaust denial
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 14:44:30 GMT
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: "dangerous people". Wouldn't you say that dubbing revisionists as
>: "dangerous" is dangerous, in that it could incite censorship?
>So it's your contention that dangerous people should not be identified
>as such, for fear that others might censor them? Interesting, but not
>very useful, I think...
What process or who, determines who is dangerous?
>: If you assert that revisionists have a "ulterior motive", then you
>: should attack there points to show that they have nothing.
>...a process which goes on here on a.r. every day.
You mean the process that Van Alstine and Ostrov endorse? The process
of "ridicule".
>Bill
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 11 14:17:09 PST 1996
Article: 19656 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Trial of Tom Moran
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 15:04:39 GMT
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <4cu2tj$r20@zippy.cais.net>, tom moran wrote:
>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>>Gosh, what a surprise! Mr. Moran is anti-Jewish! Shucks, who
>>>wudda thunk it?
>>
>> Prove that I am "anti-Jewish". I'm the defendant, and your the
>>prosecutor. Give it a go. Get in touch with Yale as co-prosecutor.
> Do you demand a jury trial, or will you accept a single judge?
I demand the evidence.
Let the procedings begin.
> Posted/emailed.
>--
>Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 11 14:17:10 PST 1996
Article: 19657 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Official Nizkor Code of Responding
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 15:17:07 GMT
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Hillary Ostrov
(Nizkor co-webmaster)
alt.revisionism
"No Zyklone - then DDT"
"Many of us believe that ridicule
is the most appropriate response to
one who(offers) up thoroughly idiotic
questions and responses."
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 11 14:17:10 PST 1996
Article: 19658 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.correct,alt.feminazis,alt.mens-rights,soc.men,soc.rights.human,nz.general,nz.politics,soc.culture.new-zealand
Subject: Re: freedom of speech is indivisible
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 14:36:31 GMT
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>>
>> >The
>> >right to express one's views, however, does not equate to the right to
>> >be taken seriously.
>>
>> "...does not equate to the right to be taken seriously"?
>That's correct. The fact that you have the right to state your absurd
>lies does not oblige anyone to take you seriously, Mr. Moran. It simply
>means that you have the right to state them.
>What part of that didn't you understand?
The part about "absurd lies". Which are?
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 11 14:17:11 PST 1996
Article: 19659 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran: Where are you, Granite Boy?
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 15:20:13 GMT
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t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON KEITH MURRAY) wrote:
>Hey, Granite Boy, I'm still waiting for either proof to support or
>retraction of your statement that I condone the prosecution and jailing of
>revisionists on the basis of their beliefs alone.
>And while we're at it, I await with breathless anticipation your proof that
>there cannot have been, over the period of around 90 years, 200 million
>trees planted in what is now Israel. And how they must have been planted no
>more than two feet apart in order to fit.
>And while we're at *that*, how about your assertions that iron is an
>amphibole?
>Lot of threads you've left a-blowin' in the wind, Granite Boy.
Poor Morrison, gnashing his teeth, wrenching his garments, foaming at
the mouth.
>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 11 14:17:12 PST 1996
Article: 19665 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: jail sentences and holocaust denial
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 14:41:18 GMT
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>: >In article <30ED4928.128D@niven.imsweb.net>,
>: >Bud wrote:
>: >>do you think it's right for holocaust deniers to be sentenced to prison
>: >>terms for their views?
>: > Absolutely not. Quite aside from the principal objection that it a
>: >violation of their rights, it doesn't even achieve its intended goal.
>: What about being charged as "racist" and "anti-Semite"?
>What do you mean by being "charged"? If you're talking about legal
>charges or censorship, certainly not. However, being called racist
>or antisemite is not a violation of anyone's rights--especially if
>it's true.
Who determines the truth of the accusations?
>Bill
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 12 08:40:41 PST 1996
Article: 19712 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Official Nizkor Code of Responding
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 00:52:11 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
> Hillary Ostrov
> (Nizkor co-webmaster)
> alt.revisionism
> "No Zyklone - then DDT"
> "Many of us believe that ridicule
> is the most appropriate response to
> one who(offers) up thoroughly idiotic
> questions and responses."
>
Of course if any revisionist would have been so stupid as to post
something like this, Nizkorites would jump all over them.
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 12 08:40:42 PST 1996
Article: 19714 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CENSORSHIP - SIMON SAYS AGAIN
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 00:46:02 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
In the Los Angeles Times version of reporting on the above latest
attempt by the Simon Wiesenthal Center to censor the Internet, it
repeats the Jewish groups assertion that they are not out to censor
the newsgroups "...that hate groups use" (quote Times), ... which "has
distributed information to be posted in response to assertions such as
those denying that the Holocaust ever occurred".
So it is a fact that Simon Wiesenthal Center considers the groups and
revisionism as a vehicle to expound "hate", and it is thus certain
that if they can get their censorship agenda to take root they will by
and by be going after the groups. The copy in their own Hoocaust
website, including associated sites shows that they committ a good
portion of their outpit to "hate" groups.
"Cooper compares access providers -- which typically charge a monthly
fee and allow consumers and buisnesses to dial into the Internet-- to
traditional media outlets such as radio stations and newspapers, which
he says have typically declined to provide hate groups with a
platform."
Here we have another little trick the Jewish organizations commonly
use, to compare their target or activity to other processes for the
sake of precidence. A couple of years ago when the ADL, another Jewish
org. of record calling for censorship on the Internet, got caught with
a giant dossier on its enemies, much of it stealthily aquired through
law enforcement facilities, they copped that they were only acting in
a investigative, journalistic capacity like any other investigative
reporters would have. A myriad of Black, Catholic and Arab groups were
among the dossiers, as well as individuals, totalling tens of
thousands.
The Jewish community works hard to cast itself as brilliant and
foremost in many fields, and there are some people out there that
might believe it, but if anyone should just take note of the output of
many on this group you will get a good idea of what prevails with the
mentality that makes up the ADL and the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
There is nothing more documentable than the accomodation Jewish
interest get in our major medias. Articles, columns, Letters to the
Editors, advertisments, and unsigned editorials, which they hide
behind. Most often these outputs are loaded with hateful rhetoric,
aimed at Black leaders, Catholics, Arabs and a slew of other groups.
All one would have to do is reverse the names in any copy and we would
be hearing the roar of "ANTI-SEMITISM".
The basic motive and goal of these 'literary' endeavors is:
'OUR ENEMIES ARE YOUR ENEMIES'
Jewish oragnizations have a record of championing themselves as
vanguards of human rights, but the documentary evidence would show
they are thoroughly rapt up in their own self interests, which in the
case at hand explicitly carries - revisionism - as a subject of
"hate".
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 12 08:40:43 PST 1996
Article: 19717 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.correct,alt.feminazis,alt.mens-rights,soc.men,soc.rights.human,nz.general,nz.politics,soc.culture.new-zealand
Subject: Re: freedom of speech is indivisible
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 01:14:43 GMT
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:
>In <4d3aeo$9na@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>Marty Kelley wrote:
>>>On Tue, 9 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>>>> libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >The
>>>> >right to express one's views, however, does not equate to the right to
>>>> >be taken seriously.
>>>>
>>>> "...does not equate to the right to be taken seriously"?
>>>That's correct. The fact that you have the right to state your absurd
>>>lies does not oblige anyone to take you seriously, Mr. Moran. It simply
>>>means that you have the right to state them.
>>>What part of that didn't you understand?
>> The part about "absurd lies". Which are?
>Very interesting Mr. Moran. I take then that your initial question
>was purely rhetorical and that you did in fact understand it all. Is
>this another rhetorical question? Or is it simply the case that you
>have not recently reviewed any of your own posts to alt.revisionism -
>in which your absurd lies can be found in abundance. Here's a hint:
>most of them are mixed in with your "thoroughly idiotic questions and
>responses".
>And if that hint doesn't help, well, let's start with your assertion
>that the menorah has been declared a secular symbol. Your continued
>refusal to provide any evidence to substantiate this claim, long ago
>led all reasonable people to conclude that it was nothing but an
>absurd lie on your part.
>Further, I do recall that in fact Mr. Kelley posted a list of your
>absurd lies to which others subsequently added. If you cannot find
>your posts on your rigii, perhaps you should ask Mr. Kelley to re-post
>this list.
If you find it, or Marty reposts it, let me know.
>hro
>Posted and e-mailed to Mr. Kelley
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/myssiwyg.html
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 12 08:40:48 PST 1996
Article: 19806 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No Zyclone - then DDT
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:03:51 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>> >Moran, I suggest you quit while you are behind and save yourself further
>> >embarassment and ridicule.
>> Now this is very revealing. If I'm behind, then I must be offering up
>> thoroughly idiotic questions and responses, which in that case you
>> should be happy that I am setting an example of how stupid a
>> revisionist can be. You should be happy, and want me to go on.
> You are behind and your questions and responses are thoroughly
>idiotic. Apparently you recognize this yourself for you make no effort to defend
>them whatsoever.
>
>> You say that I am the subject of "harrassment" and "ridicule"?
> He says no such thing.
>> Does this mean these are techniques used by yourself and your
>> Holocausterclones, in lieu of direct response? Could this be your
>> Freudian confession?
> No he means that your writings are laughable. They deserve
>the ridicule that they receive.
Is this a sweeping statement that should excepted as absolute truth,
or is your personal opinion? Pretend your in court and you have to
abide by the standards of offering up the explicit evidence.
> --YFE
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 12 10:22:10 PST 1996
Article: 26120 of alt.conspiracy
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: CENSORSHIP - SIMON SAYS AGAIN
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 00:49:43 GMT
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New York Times
Jan. 10, 1996
"Jewish Rights Group Urges Ban
Of All Hate Messages on Internet"
"Citing '"the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups on
the Internet,"' a leading Jewish human rights group yesterday began
sending letters to hundreds of Internet access providers and
universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that '"promote
racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence"'.
The letter from the Simon Weisenthal Center, a 425,000-member
organization ... is the latest in a growing effort by legislators and
private interest groups to censor offensive material ... which now
connects millions of computer users worldwide.
'"Internet providers have a First Amendment right and a moral
obligation not to provide these groups a platform for their
destructive propaganda,"' Rabbi Abraham Cooper, .... wrote in the
letter ...
Rabbi Cooper said the target of yesterday's call for '"ethical rules
of engagement on the Internet"' was not the many discussion forums
where individuals debate such topics as whether the Holocaust actually
occurred, but rather the Internets's World Wide Web, a service that
allows users to publish documents -- including text, pictures ...
read by millions of people.
Dozens of groups, from white supremist to anarchists, have published
documents on the Web about their points of view. Some are revisionists
histories and some are racist tracts denigrating blacks, Jews ...
Such hate speech is not illegal under Federal law and is generally
protected by First Amendment ... But efforts are growing to restrict
certain types of information ... Congress is debating ..."
The article then goes to give us comments from various people who
defend the unrestricted Internet before returning to Rabbi Cooper who
said the '"unprecidented potential and scope of the Internet" gives
people '"incredible power to promote violence, threaten women,
denigrate minorities ..."'
"He said letters would be sent to about 2000 Internet providers and
university presidents suggesting a voluntary code of ethics.
The proposed code asks providers to pledge, '"We consider it our civic
duty to refuse or terminate service to any individual or group to
exploit our service to promote an agenda of hate and violence"'.
A short recap of the of the Jewish "rights group" manifesto is that
the target of their agenda was not the many discussion forums where
individuals debate such topics as revisionism but the "...groups, from
white supremists to anarchists" who have published "documents on the
Web" ... Some are revisionists histories ..."
As to the Times reporter's stating the Jewish "rights group" is the
"latest" group in "a growing effort by legislators and private
interest groups ..." the legislators are the only ones named exactly.
No other group(s) were cited.
Of course those legislators that are mentioned are the same ones that
will tell you that Zionist policies of shooting little kids is an act
of democracy, and who will muster up 93 Senatorial votes endorsing
Jeruselem as capitol of Israel, while they can't agree on anything
that would benefit the people of the U.S.
Above, again, a Jewish connection that revisionism and "hate" are in
the same category.
Before any self imposed or legislative imposed restrictions are made
on the Internet, we should reqire that any proposers list exactly what
they see as example candidates for censorship, and be subject to
debate by the general citizens of the U.S. and the world. It can not
be left up to Jewish "rights groups" to set the parameters. Its
already a unwritten law that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic, and few if
any dare question any U.S. policies that even remotely connect to that
area of the world.
The main problem with any kind of censorship is the precidences it
sets, which history shows can and will be used to expand them to any
level, far removed from the initial precedence.
We can not allow ourselves to be controlled by fear and tyranny. The
truely intellectual way of dealing with any wacky malevolent doctrines
is to counter them with the pen, not by the methods of the likes of
the Simon Weisenthal Center. Their approach is a sign of their failure
and confidence of intellect to debate a issue and or their
condemnation of the American intellect. An act of contempt.
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 12 10:22:11 PST 1996
Article: 26121 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: CENSORSHIP - SIMON SAYS AGAIN
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 00:51:37 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
In the Los Angeles Times version of reporting on the above latest
attempt by the Simon Wiesenthal Center to censor the Internet, it
repeats the Jewish groups assertion that they are not out to censor
the newsgroups "...that hate groups use" (quote Times), ... which "has
distributed information to be posted in response to assertions such as
those denying that the Holocaust ever occurred".
So it is a fact that Simon Wiesenthal Center considers the groups and
revisionism as a vehicle to expound "hate", and it is thus certain
that if they can get their censorship agenda to take root they will by
and by be going after the groups. The copy in their own Hoocaust
website, including associated sites shows that they committ a good
portion of their outpit to "hate" groups.
"Cooper compares access providers -- which typically charge a monthly
fee and allow consumers and buisnesses to dial into the Internet-- to
traditional media outlets such as radio stations and newspapers, which
he says have typically declined to provide hate groups with a
platform."
Here we have another little trick the Jewish organizations commonly
use, to compare their target or activity to other processes for the
sake of precidence. A couple of years ago when the ADL, another Jewish
org. of record calling for censorship on the Internet, got caught with
a giant dossier on its enemies, much of it stealthily aquired through
law enforcement facilities, they copped that they were only acting in
a investigative, journalistic capacity like any other investigative
reporters would have. A myriad of Black, Catholic and Arab groups were
among the dossiers, as well as individuals, totalling tens of
thousands.
The Jewish community works hard to cast itself as brilliant and
foremost in many fields, and there are some people out there that
might believe it, but if anyone should just take note of the output of
many on alt.revisionism you will get a good idea of what prevails with
the mentality that makes up the ADL and the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
There is nothing more documentable than the accomodation Jewish
interest get in our major medias. Articles, columns, Letters to the
Editors, advertisments, and unsigned editorials, which they hide
behind. Most often these outputs are loaded with hateful rhetoric,
aimed at Black leaders, Catholics, Arabs and a slew of other groups.
All one would have to do is reverse the names in any copy and we would
be hearing the roar of "ANTI-SEMITISM".
The basic motive and goal of these 'literary' endeavors is:
'OUR ENEMIES ARE YOUR ENEMIES'
Jewish oragnizations have a record of championing themselves as
vanguards of human rights, but the documentary evidence would show
they are thoroughly rapt up in their own self interests, which in the
case at hand explicitly carries - revisionism - as a subject of
"hate".
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 12 11:17:30 PST 1996
Article: 19807 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Where To Find Moran's "anti-Jewish" - "lies" on alt.rev
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:55:36 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Here is the list of articles where you can find Tom Moran's
"anti-Jewish" - "lies"
on alt.rev.
Argumentum ad populum
Nizkor invite accepted
WHERE ARE THE PHOTOS
Holocausterclonism
BIG QUESTION III
Tom Moran is ...
PHOTOS HAVE BEEN FOUND
The Tally Thus Far
"AUSCHWITZ; A History in Photographs"
Pressac, Yes? Pressac, No? It all depends?
Zioexaggeration = 200,000,000
Debby's specifications; her own words
Where are the MASS GRAVES?
Rock and the Hard Place
ADL "friends of free speech" excepting ...
Auschwitz: The more photos I see the more I realize what ...
No Zyclone - then DDT
Zyclone B - powder, pellet, liquid?
80% of U.S. artisans would be Jewish if it wasn't for ...
COMPU SERVE LIED
SUSPICIONS
CENSORSHIP - SIMON SAYS AGAIN
The Official Nizkor Code of Responding
FREUDIAN ADMISSION of INADEQUACY
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 12 11:17:31 PST 1996
Article: 19808 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREUDIAN ADMISSION of INADEQUACY?
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:06:35 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>> "Moran, I suggest you quit while your behind and save yourself
>> further embarrassment and ridicule."
>>
>> "Ridicule"? Why not just respond directly to the material?
>>
>>
>>>>>
> Because your opinions are so silly that ridicule *is* a direct
>response to it. BTW have you recounted your trees lately?
You mean all 200,000,000 of them?
> --YFE
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 12 11:17:32 PST 1996
Article: 19819 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Official Nizkor Code of Responding
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:27:49 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
> Hillary Ostrov
> (Nizkor co-webmaster)
> alt.revisionism
> "No Zyklone - then DDT"
> "Many of us believe that ridicule
> is the most appropriate response to
> one who(offers) up thoroughly idiotic
> questions and responses."
>
Since Hillary states "many of us", would the others please sign on to
endorse her code.
From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 13 10:02:11 PST 1996
Article: 19920 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:40:25 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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hmazal@txdirect.net wrote:
>> Alexander Baron writes:
>> In article
>> mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU "Marty Kelley" writes:
>> > To further clarify Mr. Bacon's comments, I would add that the shower
>> > heads in the gas chambers weren't even connected to anything--captured
>> > Nazi documents include the purchase forms for shower heads to be
>> > installed in the Kremas (but not for water pipes), and the blueprints
>> > for the Krema buildings show no piping for showers.
>> >
>>
>> In which Moscow archive were these "found", and when?
>Mr. Baron is such a dedicated research historian that he mistakenly
>attributes the information rergarding the shower heads to a "Moscow
>Archive." The document ordering the shower heads can be viewed
>on page 438 (photo 18) of Pressac's book.
>The documents is signed and sealed. Perhaps he should look it up.
>It is almost too easy making Mr. Baron look foolish.
>Harry W. Mazal OBE
Auschwitz had showers with water, prove any order for shower heads was
for use in gas chambers.
From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 13 10:02:12 PST 1996
Article: 19921 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: COMPU SERVE LIED
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:43:33 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>> >>
>> >> > Why do you hate Jews so much that you are regularly
>> >> >moved to lie about them? You have done so on a regular basis
>> >> >here.
>> >>
>> Where?
>>
> You are still refusing to answer the question, Tommy. You have been
>caught in lie after lie about the Jews. Why you do persist?
WHERE?
> --YFE
From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 13 10:02:12 PST 1996
Article: 19922 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: COMPU SERVE LIED
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:44:08 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>> I can see your idea of a court proceeding. 'Your Honor, this man is
>> guilty.' His Honor: 'Do you have the evidence?' Yale: WHAT? I DON'T
>> NEED ANY EVIDENCE.'
>>
>>>>>
> The evidence was cited to you, your own writing. Deal with it.
Where?
> --YFE
From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 13 10:02:13 PST 1996
Article: 19923 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: COMPU SERVE LIED
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:45:20 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>
>> It is interesting. Jews don't mind so much being called "kikes" as
>> much as they hate recaps of the their activities. I never use terms
>> myself, but I have noticed a certain Mona Lisa smile cross their faces
>> when they are called names. It gives them the opportunity to tell them
>> selves the dubbing party is jealous. Its the facts that really sets
>> them off.
>>
>>
>>>>>
> Be informed, you lying little bigot, that the words you seem to enjoy
>using are considered "fighting words." In other words, shithead, make sure your
>dental insurance is paid up before you call someone that to his face.
Which words?
> --YFE
From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan 14 11:57:58 PST 1996
Article: 20042 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No Zyclone - then DDT
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:42:31 GMT
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> > ...your [Moran's] writings are laughable. They deserve
>> >the ridicule that they receive.
>>
>> Is this a sweeping statement that should excepted as absolute truth,
>> or is your personal opinion? Pretend your in court and you have to
>> abide by the standards of offering up the explicit evidence.
>Here's a surprising thought for you, Mr. Moran: the question of whether
>something is "laughable" is a matter of taste and opinion which is not
>subject to concrete proof in the same ways that legal matters are.
>(Although courts DO render verdicts on whether something is "parodic," as
>in "fair use" cases regarding copyrighted materials...)
>But a simple test would be whether people laugh at your writings
>(even--or especially--when you don't intend them to be funny). I often
>laugh, derisively, at many of your writings. If your writings elicit
>that reaction fairly often, it's pretty likely that they are, well,
>LAUGHABLE!
>But I freely admit that there is not judicial test for laughability.
>Luckily for you, there is also no law against being incredibly dense.
I don't detect any laughing coming out of you here. Of course if a
revisionist directed the same statements towards the postings of
Holocaust peers, they would screeming 'EVASION' to point of horseness.
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan 14 11:57:59 PST 1996
Article: 20047 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Trial of Tom Moran
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 16:24:35 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:
>>
>> >
>> > Prove that I am "anti-Jewish". I'm the defendant, and your the
>> >prosecutor. Give it a go. Get in touch with Yale as co-prosecutor.
>>
>> Do you demand a jury trial, or will you accept a single judge?
>>
>>>>>
> Master Moran will, of course, accept neither; he will run and hide.
>In response to one of Master Moran's similar challenges I e-mailed him the
>address of the California offices of the American Arbitration Association
>informing him that I would be willing to submit my evidence to a panel
>assembled according to their rules. The only proviso I put on this offer
>was that the loser was to pay all expenses of th earbitration. Master Moran never
>answered this e-mail. I would make the same offer now with the additional
>proviso that when Master Moran is deposed prior to the submission to arbitration,
>the costs of this deposition be borne by the loser.
> I do not expect Master Moran to accept this offer. Aside from the
>yellow streak down his back, Master Moran apparently suffers from another
>malady. As we used to say in West Philly his mouth writes checks that his
>body can't cash.
Your the one who is making the charge(s). File the case. So far all
you do is keep ranting, yet not once have you cited any material
explicitly along with your points to show your charge(s). This is the
documented record.
> --YFE
From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan 14 13:43:43 PST 1996
Article: 20042 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No Zyclone - then DDT
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:42:31 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4dbbd4$vrg@zippy.cais.net>
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> > ...your [Moran's] writings are laughable. They deserve
>> >the ridicule that they receive.
>>
>> Is this a sweeping statement that should excepted as absolute truth,
>> or is your personal opinion? Pretend your in court and you have to
>> abide by the standards of offering up the explicit evidence.
>Here's a surprising thought for you, Mr. Moran: the question of whether
>something is "laughable" is a matter of taste and opinion which is not
>subject to concrete proof in the same ways that legal matters are.
>(Although courts DO render verdicts on whether something is "parodic," as
>in "fair use" cases regarding copyrighted materials...)
>But a simple test would be whether people laugh at your writings
>(even--or especially--when you don't intend them to be funny). I often
>laugh, derisively, at many of your writings. If your writings elicit
>that reaction fairly often, it's pretty likely that they are, well,
>LAUGHABLE!
>But I freely admit that there is not judicial test for laughability.
>Luckily for you, there is also no law against being incredibly dense.
I don't detect any laughing coming out of you here. Of course if a
revisionist directed the same statements towards the postings of
Holocaust peers, they would screeming 'EVASION' to point of horseness.
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan 14 13:43:44 PST 1996
Article: 20047 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Trial of Tom Moran
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 16:24:35 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4dbds0$d9@zippy.cais.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:
>>
>> >
>> > Prove that I am "anti-Jewish". I'm the defendant, and your the
>> >prosecutor. Give it a go. Get in touch with Yale as co-prosecutor.
>>
>> Do you demand a jury trial, or will you accept a single judge?
>>
>>>>>
> Master Moran will, of course, accept neither; he will run and hide.
>In response to one of Master Moran's similar challenges I e-mailed him the
>address of the California offices of the American Arbitration Association
>informing him that I would be willing to submit my evidence to a panel
>assembled according to their rules. The only proviso I put on this offer
>was that the loser was to pay all expenses of th earbitration. Master Moran never
>answered this e-mail. I would make the same offer now with the additional
>proviso that when Master Moran is deposed prior to the submission to arbitration,
>the costs of this deposition be borne by the loser.
> I do not expect Master Moran to accept this offer. Aside from the
>yellow streak down his back, Master Moran apparently suffers from another
>malady. As we used to say in West Philly his mouth writes checks that his
>body can't cash.
Your the one who is making the charge(s). File the case. So far all
you do is keep ranting, yet not once have you cited any material
explicitly along with your points to show your charge(s). This is the
documented record.
> --YFE
From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan 14 13:43:45 PST 1996
Article: 20057 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 17:22:41 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:
>> mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU "Marty Kelley" writes:
>> > To further clarify Mr. Bacon's comments, I would add that the shower
>> > heads in the gas chambers weren't even connected to anything--captured
>> > Nazi documents include the purchase forms for shower heads to be
>> > installed in the Kremas (but not for water pipes), and the blueprints
>> > for the Krema buildings show no piping for showers.
>> >
>>
>> In which Moscow archive were these "found", and when?
>As documented in http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/qar/qar01.html:
> An inventory, again captured after the war, revealed fourteen
> showerheads and one gas-tight door listed for the gas chamber in
> Krema III. Holocaust-deniers claim that room was a morgue; they do
> not offer to explain what use a morgue has for showerheads and a
> gas-tight door. (See a photograph of the document, or Pressac,
> Auschwitz: Technique and Operation, 1989, pp. 231, 438.)
>The word "photograph" is tied to the URL:
> http://modb.oce.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/Holocaust/invntry.html
>There you can see the document itself, complete with handwritten
>notations and stamps of the Reich.
>I don't know its provenance but I don't think it's in question; anyone
>with Pressac want to look it up for me?
Are you saying you (Nizkor) don't have a copy of Pressac?
Anyway, this document is implied above to have originated from "Soviet
archives". Would these be the same archives from which came the the
old Auschwitz numbers, now recognized as fabrications?
As a piece of evidence, it is useless to the viewer on Internet.
Neither does one have the opportunity to inspect it for tampering or
other clues as to its authenticity. Further, there are entries made
that are not explained to the viewer. Written vertically across the
top there are typed in titles to enrty columns below each and to the
left there are hand written entries, the discription of which there is
only the one. The display of the document for Internet viewers is
nothing more than bravado.
Documents, documents, documents. Where is the pre-trial report on this
allleged process of tricking people with shower heads. Where is the
photographic evidence? Why would anyone build an installation below
ground for the continuous operation of mass extermination requiring
unloading the bodies, up stairs, we could presume, to levels for
transport to ovens? What design did (does) the facility have for
continuous duty including a design to expediate facility of removing
hundreds of bodies? If the shower heads weren't hooked up, what
introduction system did (does) the building have for any gas?
There used to be a time when Holocaust stories included that
gas was introduced through shower heads, with stories of how it
streamed down on the victims.
>The lack of water piping is evidenced not so much as the lack of piping
>on the plans -- there were many different versions of the blueprints,
>and their absence on several versions does not mean they were absent on
>all. Rather, one can visit the site today and see for oneself that there
>was no piping going into the gas chambers.
>So, Mr. Baron, since you can now see the document for yourself, surely
>you will now admit that the Nazis put showerheads into the room that you
>and your colleagues call a "morgue" in Krema III. You will admit this
>because you are an honorable man, and because when you learn the truth
>you bellow it, and because you are not biased in any way when it comes
>to the Nazi gas chambers.
>Right?
>Posted/emailed.
>--
> Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
> to be in the public domain. I speak only for myself.
From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan 14 14:43:34 PST 1996
Article: 26588 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: ADL connection to OKC bombing
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:34:48 GMT
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Message-ID: <4dbaul$vrg@zippy.cais.net>
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alpert@netaxs.com (Robert Alpert) wrote:
>A Huber (EEGG87A@prodigy.com) wrote:
>> instigating the feds to action. How about we do the same for the JDL,
>> the j-w's military arm???
>Because that dormant grey organ oozing between your ears doesn't
>have the capacity for it, witless goy.
What is this "goy". Is it in the smae category as "nigger", "chink",
"kike", "beaner" for example?
>--
>==============================================================================
> Bob Alpert | Government agents are swine. | Heroin Crack AK-47
> Tuna Palace Systems +------------------------------+ CIA Destroy FBI Kill
> alpert@netaxs.com | *** Member, IJC and ZOG *** | NSA Clinton Cocaine
>==============================================================================
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 16 08:28:08 PST 1996
Article: 20276 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The case for *OPEN* Debate on the Holocaust
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:27:55 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>In , dkeren@world.std.com said:
>>
>>Not this old garbage again - Gannon began with it 4 years ago.
>>BTW, in case our "revisionists" have once again "forgot" to
>>mention it, this was not an article, but a paid advertisement.
>>It's amazing to see this old fool Smith and nazi-boy here *still* trying
>>to peddle the "Leuchter report", which is recognized even by
>>"revisionists" as being totally useless. Nothing new under the sun (and
>>under the rock).
>What this seems to be is bumboy Lemire engaging in a mass "Gannon" post
>campaign. Every one of the articles is two to five years old and every one
>has been shot down repeatedly. Obviously, in their supreme contempt for the
>newer members of this newsgroup, the Nazi scum think they are stupid enough
>to be sucked in by this crap.
>Let's's see: we have the phony Leuchter, the defrocked Faurisson, the
>never-was Weber, and Mr. Hit and Run himself--Raven. No wonder they lack
>all credibility.
>--
>Gord McFee
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
Lemire,
Thanks for the info. A lot of it I didn't know. Whether it is years
old or days old, it should be posted on a regular basis for new comers
to the group, which I think will be increasing at a certain rate since
Simon and Company gave it all the publicity.
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 16 08:28:09 PST 1996
Article: 20281 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "WHAT BEING JEWISH MEANS TO ME"
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:34:50 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>
>> This letter is to be sent to both the the American Jewish Committee
>> and to Ginsberg.
>>
>>>>>
> Where, one hopes, it will be met with the contempt it merits.
I believe the record shows that Yale expresses ideal examples of
Talmudic law. Of course it is cited in Ginsberg's doting advertisment
on Judaic concern how Jews swarm to the legal profession, which makes
one wonder why so many people have such a negative attitude about the
profession in the U.S., what with all this Talmudic righteousness. In
reality it is those little Yale minds galore. No, no. Their not in for
the money, their in it for the concern for justice.
> --YFE
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 16 08:28:09 PST 1996
Article: 20282 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: World's Largest Pedophile Group is run by Pope John Paul II
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:35:17 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <4dgd4n$e67@zippy.cais.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.society.conservatism:27305 alt.society.civil-liberty:40336 alt.sex.pedophilia:13499 alt.sex.homosexual:9773 alt.sex.advocacy:843 alt.revisionism:20282 alt.religion.sexuality:7976 alt.politics.usa.misc:51296 alt.politics.sex:8069 alt.politics.homosexuality:81386 alt.christnet:45007
I have seen a lot of publicity about Catholic priests and molestation,
but whereas I have witnessed scores upon scores of excuses by Jews
that killing children is an act of democracy, I have never seen one
letter by a Catholic reasoning condonment for any priests activity.
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 16 08:28:10 PST 1996
Article: 20283 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: freedom of speech is indivisible
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:36:20 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>>
>>> > Gee, that's a hard one. Let's start with:
>>>
>>> > 1. Your out of context quotation of Deuteronomy
Why don't you just set the contextual record straight?
>>> > 2. Your nonsense about the number of trees in Israel
The 200,000,000 trees?
>>>
>>> > 3. Your claim that there is a case that holds the menorah is a
>>> > secular object
>>>
You'll be getting the articles to chutzpahize on. The case transcript
will have to wait.
>>> > 4. Your lies about the Bloom archives
Lies? Most of it was pure quotation.
>>>
>>> > 5. Your claim the Zundel site was a put-up job
You mean the frame up job?
>>>
>>> > 6. Your claims that Morrison supports censorship
Thats my 'theory'. Let him prove himself and make a racket at his
campus in favor of revisionist right to speak. Does he or you ever
write to anyone accused of censoring?
>>>
>>> The proper procedure here, barrister, would be to cite, quote the
>>> lies, and then show that they were lies.
>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>> Which, of course, has been done again and agains and again. You
>>have yet to make a substantive response. Moreover, you have never responded
>>to my e-mail. Now come off it, Tommy Boy. Tell us about your lies. The ball is
>>most definitely in your court.
> You say "again, agains and again"? Where is that?
>> --YFE
> What is all this about e-mail? A hearing before the California
>Arbitration Board? Your the one making the charges. Make them formal.
>What I should charge you to get before this board? I don't mind what
>you say. The more you say the more obvious it is that your on the
>ropes. It only takes a second or so deal with your stuff. It is
>evasion.
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 16 08:28:11 PST 1996
Article: 20284 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Trial of Tom Moran
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:39:08 GMT
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mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <4dbds0$d9@zippy.cais.net>, tom moran wrote:
>> Your the one who is making the charge(s). File the case. So far all
>>you do is keep ranting, yet not once have you cited any material
>>explicitly along with your points to show your charge(s). This is the
>>documented record.
> No, Tommy. People here have cited material explicitly many times.
> You made a claim about Jews and courts and menorahs. Not once have
>you cited any material explicitly to prove your charge, yet you kept
>making "boasterous" statements about how you would embarrass everyone when
>you found your evidence. Well, Mr. Prosecutor, where is it?
Ask Marty.
> You made a claim that the tree-planting article was an exaggeration,
>but not once have you cited any material explicitly to prove your charge.
>Not only that, you were wrong by three orders of magnitude on the spacing
>of the trees.
Why don't you set the tree per square whatever. Did I say something
like one tree for every square inch or what? Would it come out to
something like 25,000 trees per square mile?
> You made a false claim about the Southwestern Jewish Archives page.
>You made claims as to what the pages were trying to show, but not once
>have you cited any material explicitly to prove your charge. I do not see
>in those pages what you claim to see.
Oh, isn't the posting mostly quotes? Why don't you set the record
straight? Go to the site, read it, select what you think, and post it?
> That's just three examples. That's part of your documented record as
>antisemitic. Yet you keep claiming nobody has cited examples. That's a
>lie. You are a liar, Tommy. And that is the documented record.
Oh.oh. The big guns are coming out. "ANTI-SEMITISM". Whoa. Before I
confess, I have to clear some things up. Considering how "Semitic,
Semitism or Semite" is a racial designation and is mostly applied to
Jews, which is a religious connection, what exactly am I being charged
with: Is it a charge of racial bias, or is a charge of religious bias?
Or both? You know, a racial religion.
> Posted/emailed.
>--
>Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 16 08:28:12 PST 1996
Article: 20288 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where To Find Moran's "anti-Jewish" - "lies" on alt.rev
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:30:14 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>>
>> Here is the list of articles where you can find Tom Moran's
>> "anti-Jewish" - "lies"
>> on alt.rev.
>>
>> Argumentum ad populum
>> Nizkor invite accepted
>[rest of list snipped]
>I would point out that a lot of these threads are no longer currently
>running, although Mr. Moran lists them as if they were.
>I would also (forgive me if I sound a bit Baronial in tone here!) add
>that I will soon be posting a "Dirty Dozen" of Tom Moran's inaccuracies
>and lies under the title "To Err is Moran." I will post it later today
>(Jan 15 1996). I will also send e-mailed copies to Mr. Moran and to the
>Nizkor site, and to anyone else who requests a copy.
> ----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
Thanks for the info. Which of the post are not still running on your
screen? I'll repost them.
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 16 08:28:12 PST 1996
Article: 20289 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:31:39 GMT
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jaklein@unix.amherst.edu (Josh Klein) wrote:
>> >
>> 'Look commodant, das building looks like it vas a shower vacility vor
>> das inmates.' - 'Nyet, das must be vor vraining poison gas down on
>> das inmates. Ve must report this to Nuremberg.'
>> 'Over there commodant, vindows into building.' - 'Nyet, das must be
>> vor putting in poison powder from deese little vround boxes. Ve must
>> report das too. I see das vents in building over dhere. Must be vor
>> pouring pellets down on victims. Ve must vind more evidence to give
>> Nuremberg, the Germans must pay vor attacking das motherland.'
>I will simply point out that Mr. Moran's attempts to immitate a Russian
>accent are as pathetic as his attempt to find the Vistula river on
>a map. (Russian does have an "f" sound, so Russians do not mispronounce
>English f's as v's. In addition, it is unlikely that a Russian would use
>the German "das" as a substitute for the English definite article "the."
>In fact, even a German would hardly make the transposision Moran has above,
>since Germans would presumably use the article "die" in front of plural
>nouns. )
>So what's new? Moran is still full of balogne.
While committing these fine examples of responding to a:/, I
reviewed some along the way, clicking up many that I wasn't required
to reply to. By 'not required', this is to say that the response was
not directed to the main point of the post. Anyway, now that he has
filed a complaint about the satire dialogue, maybe he can come back
with another brilliancy on the rest.
>--
>Josh Klein
>Amherst College
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 16 08:28:13 PST 1996
Article: 20290 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Official Nizkor Code of Responding
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:32:34 GMT
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>>
>> Hillary Ostrov
>> (Nizkor co-webmaster)
>> alt.revisionism
>> "No Zyklone - then DDT"
>>
>> "Many of us believe that ridicule
>> is the most appropriate response to
>> one who(offers) up thoroughly idiotic
>> questions and responses."
>Of course, you leave out the reasonable other side of the coin:
>intelligent questions and thoughtful responses deserve serious,
>well-researched answers. Which plenty of your opponents have provided,
>even when your questions and comments were in fact idiotic and ridiculous.
>For just one example, I did a certain amount of research regarding your
>thoroughly unfounded assertion that the menorah had been declared a
>secular symbol by a U.S. court. I posted that research, and you replied
>to it with...well, quite frankly, thoroughly idiotic questions and
>responses which showed you to be have very poor reading comprehension.
>By the way, Mr Moran, you promised in October, and then again in
>December, to post proof that a U.S. court made such a declaration. Care
>to give us that proof?
It's a good thing you have something to wave when the going gets
rough. Recall that I said I was working on it. I find out that the
cost of transcript could be thousands of dollars. Why don't you save
me the money and ask around the community for a copy. As I mentioned a
girl from the community told me about one circulating. Since she's a
friend of my sons I won't ask her, taking the course of not
introducing my politics and historical concerns to his friends, lest
they bring up a subject.
The articles that will be recovered, full with quotes that the menorah
is secular, and not religious, will put you to the limits of double
talk.
It is interesting, at times you take a jab at directly responding to
points I have posted and at others you raise the menorah banner.
Sometimes you will respond, then raise the banner after a response to
your response.
Anyway, as I see it,'the more the merrier'. The examples thus far
create a certain revealing collage when their all together.
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 16 08:28:14 PST 1996
Article: 20291 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No Zyclone - then DDT
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:32:53 GMT
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mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>In article , mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) says:
>>No, you illiterate Philistine, I said "embarassment and ridicule." I
>>realize that words with more than one syllable give you a hard time, but
>>you can tell the difference between two words because "embarassment starts
>>with an "e" and "harrassment" starts with an "h." (You do know the
>>alphabet, right?)
> Philistine is a very, very foolish reference in this context.
> The Philistines were one of the first recorded races upon whom
>genocide was performed.
> Want to guess by whom?
> Sorry, a people that celebrates its own genocidal ancestors is no
>different than a people 3000 years from now that would celebrate Hitler
>as its Joshua today. Ask the people of Jericho if you can find any.
> Neo-nazis and neo-Joshuans are no different.
> Keep firmly in mind that the oldest chronicle of genocide is
>recorded in the old testament and it was done by the ancestors of the
>present day Jews and they have never renounced those actions nor the god
>that is supposed to have ordered it.
> Religion sucks.
> Believing it is worse.
> You know and I know all of this bible crap is crap.
> To hold that anyone was stupid enough to hold to it for centuries after it
>was out of style and then did not smell the coffee was a set up for a future
>pogrom that would be worse.
> Superstitious idiots meaning all believers in all gods and religions get
>what they believe it. At least the new testament does not celebrate genocide but
>then it was "closed" before it got in the position to have it recorded.
> Have I been too subtle or shall I post more explicitely?
Don't bother. Just refer them over to "Boasted Holocaust". If it's not
on the screen for some I will post it again. It gives one example out
of thirty from the Bible where the high Jewish holy book brags about
killing everyone including women and children. The only religion in
the world tha brags about it.
>---------------------------------------------------------------
> http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
>politics, humor, Waco documents, documents of the United States
>Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/
> http://www2.combase.com/~matt/
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 16 08:28:15 PST 1996
Article: 20295 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:51:31 GMT
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Books out to sell the Holocaust story all follow the same general path
of topics. Naturally they go on about mass gassing and cremation, and
also the acitivities of the Einsatzgruppens, the preceding
"anti-Semitism" and such. They all also give considerable treatment to
establishing a sufficient Jewish population preceding 1939. After all,
if they are trying to claim 6 million Jews were put to death, they
have to show that there were enough Jews in the arena to have been
killed.
Of course fabricators can get themselves into problems when
they carry the accounts too far. Just focusing on one book, say Yehuda
Bauer's, "The History of the Holocaust", we can find in just a short
span, a number of problems. He includes in his version of establishing
a sufficient Jewish population "Table 2.1", "Jewish population
(estimated)". In this table he has three verticle columns:
Year Jews in Europe Total Jews world wide
1650 700,000 1,750,000
1700 1,000,000 1,250,000
1750 1,250,000 2,250,000
1800 1,500,000 2,500,000
1825 2,730,000 3,281,000
1840 3,600,000 4,500,000
1850 4,127,000 4,764,500
1860 5,200,000 6,000,000
"Source:Arthur Ruppin, Soziologie der Juden (Berlin, 1931), pp. 81,89"
Right in the beginning we can see the list showing that the European
Jewish population increased 7 1/2 times, from 700,000 to 5,200,000 in
just 210 years. In 1650 there were 700,000 in Europe and 1,050,000
else where. In 1860 there were 5,200,000 in Europe and only 800,000
else where. Seems there was a Jewish population explosion in Europe
and a decline elsewhere. Or there was the explosion in Europe and many
of those elsewhere migrated to Europe. Whichever, the source doesn't
say.
Anyway it seems that Bauer's list has Jewish population expanding at
an incredible rate between 1650 and 1860, where between 1800 and 1825
alone the "estimated" Jewish population almost doubled from 1,500,000
to 2,730,000 in the 25 year period, all this increase taking place
during a time when the average life expectancy of man was about 50
some years, further stressed by wars, famines and plagues, and the
Jews undergoing "massive progroms".
One has to wonder how these "estimated" figures for dates from 1650 to
1860 would have been compiled in 1931. Especially since those dates
were times when communications and census capacities were extremely
low. If in fact there is such a book as the one cited as the source,
we would have to view the whole line of recogning offered in the book
to determine if the statistics aren't just founded on wishful
thinking.
("Argumentum ad ignorantum: An argument purporting to demonstrate a
point or to persuade people, which avails itself of facts and reasons
the falsity or inadequacy of which is not readily diserned.")
By the early 20th Century Bauer, using a map from map happy Gilbert,
has the Jewish population up to 8,700,000 in Europe and 11,487,000
world wide.
Its obvious that Holocaust books give consider effort to establishing
Jewish populations in order to show that there were enough Jews in
Europe to be killed and add up to 6,000,000. Without such treatment
the story would be more stressed than it is on other fronts.
As usual, in their blantant tossing around of terms and numbers, they
include something that further throws suspicions on their claims, and
in this case Bauer offers us a map from Martin Gilbert:
"Some early records of Jewish town life in Europe before 1600":
that has to resort to listing the most obscure events to show that
Jews were even present in Europe. For Cologne 960 , it has "The local
Jews send a letter to Palestine asking for verification of a rumor
that a Messiah had come", not meaning Jesus Christ we can assume. In
Brussel 1310, "A Jewish scribe completes a fine illuminated
manuscript". In Munich 1228, "A Jew appears in court as a witness
during a trial", and 1173 at Wroclawek "Local coins discovered with
Hebrew inscriptions". So it seems it is necessary to pick up on wee
fragments of evidence to even show Jews existed in Europe by 1300 or
so. Given the Jewish penchant to seek out and hold anything Jewish,
this hardly seems like sufficient history to support the 700,000
Jewish population said to have been in existance by 1650.
We might even want to consider the stories about millions of Jews
fleeing into the Soviet Union, which is said to already have had a
sizable Jewish population during WWII, and then ending up at only
about 2,500,000 or so by 1980. No problem here for Bauer's numbers
since he has about a million of them migrating to the U.S. at the end
of the 19th Century which would put the WWII population of Jews in the
U.S.S.R. low enough to accept the millions said to have fled the Nazis
and still be able to arrive at the numbers in recent times.
Whatever happened to those million or so Russian Jews said to
have migrated to the U.S. at the end of the 19th century we can only
wonder, since if there was a million here by that time we would expect
millions more here and now in 1996, which there aren't to this day.
Exaggerations, thorough fabrications - lies. Thats this aspect of the
Holocaust story, as with the rest.
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 16 08:28:15 PST 1996
Article: 20296 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SUSPICIONS
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:51:50 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
So far it seems that this post is too hot to handle. And here I
thought that chutzpah had no limits.
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 16 08:28:16 PST 1996
Article: 20297 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:57:55 GMT
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During the American Revolution fighting took place for years.
Over the plains and up the mountains, guns, cannons, fire and freezing
cold. Men losing their arms, legs and lives. Sons and daughters losing
fathers. Wives losing husbands. Friends dying together in mangled
lumps. And when it was all over the United States stood before the
world with its grand document like no other nation had ever seen
before. The Constitution of the United states.
This quest for freedom is not something unique to the United States
alone, it has been going on for millemnia. In ancient Greece and Rome,
and before that, the struggle has been going on. The French Revolution
the Magna Carta. Many fighters have died across the ages and the
Constitution of the United States is the latest and most significant
of the culmination this human struggle. We must recognize these
ancient fighters as part of our heritage.
Now here we are, 200 and some years after the Revolution and thousands
of years after the others with Simons come lately plying about our
nation trying to undo it all.
Regardless of what the Jews will self proclaim about their place at
the head of this human history of seeking justice and freedoms for the
people, ancient Israel never had such freedoms for their own people
under their own government, the truth lies in their two little books.
And the history of their activity in the United States is well
documented, tenacious to control our modes of communication, using it
to sell us on Israel, their one and only allegiance. The little 2%
putting out the 100% on how they great they are.
Its lucky we have the ACLU with the Jewish leadership out on the front
lines defending us. Going to court, raising legal precedences, citing
this and that, filing this, making a motion for that. Of course all
this is prone to juggling by some magistrate before he or she makes a
determination. One person, maybe two or three. One giving here,
another giving there. This is the vulnerability of our freedoms if we
should allow it to be a legal issue, dependant on the will and
competancy of the miniscule.
The Constitution of the United States is a philosophical doctrine. It
can not be left up to magistrates and senators to make amendments or
set limits on the basic tenets as they have been doing with increasing
frequency. The Constitution being a philosophical document should be
left up to the popular decisions of the people of the nation. It has
to be discussed on in the same fashion that we would discuss any
philosophy. We talk democracy, they talk "democracy". Lets play
democracy.
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 16 10:16:52 PST 1996
Article: 20309 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ACLU on Internet Censorship
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 15:36:33 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:
>In <30fb4048.9890689@news.dnai.com>, lizard@dnai.com (Lizard) wrote:
>[follow-ups set to alt.revisionism]
>[snip]
>>I challenge any representative of the Center to come forth, and
>>publically state, ON THE RECORD, that the Center opposes, now and
>>forever, any local, state, or federal legislation to regulate any
>>speech in any media based on the ideas expressed in that speech, and
>>that it is the permenant policy of the Center to use purely economic
>>and ethical pressure to silence those it dislikes, never the force of
>>law.
>>Would that be so hard for someone to say?
>I am not a representative of the SWC, but I do believe the following
>paragraphs from their Press Release of Jan. 12/96 (and available at
>the website
>"There is no doubt that much of this speech is protected in the United
>States by the First Amendment, and we clearly believe that our
>government does not have a role in prohibiting its use," said Cooper.
>"Traditionally, print and broadcast media around the world have
>refused to provide these groups with a platform for their propaganda,
>and they have refused to allow these groups to manipulate them in the
>name of the First Amendment."
Where does "around the world" fit in with the U.S.?
>According to Cooper, "Radio and television executives and newspaper
>editors have long understood that the First Amendment protects our
>citizenry from interference by the government, but does not obligate
>media channels to publish or distribute materials they consider false,
>inflammatory, hateful and unfair. It is the Wiesenthal Center's
>position that such an understanding should extend to the Internet and
>World Wide Web, as well."
Of course The Simon Wiesenthal Center and other Jewish organizations
get ready accomodation in all of the above when trying to incite us
against Israel's enemies. You could take almost any of their releases
and all you would have to do is switch the names around to get a
barrage of charges of "anti-Semitism". Every week in the N.Y. Times
there is a letter to the editor by a Jew denouncing Arabs and Arab
regimes. Every week a column. Every week in the articles, clear bias.
If true Americans or Arabs had the same accomodation, aid to Israel
would have stopped long ago. "Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism." That is
why there is no complaints. Where are any articles or columns by
revisionists? Try to place an ad and see if its accepted of rejected.
Where is the SWC and any other self righteous and publically
proclaiming Jewish organizations when it comes to speaking up for the
rights of revisionists. There aren't any. In fact, revisionists are
the real target of Jewish calls for censorship. Without any websites
saying anything about Jewish activity or revisionism we would not be
hearing from the likes of the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
>"We are under no illusion that adopting such acceptable-use standards
>will keep these groups from promulgating their message of hate across
>the Internet. Nor are we asking access providers to block or prohibit
>their customers from accessing such materials, or to limit private
>e-mail or usenet groups established to discuss these issues."
Where are their examples. Let them put some exactitude to their
claims. "Hate" is a word that pops up in most of the Holocaust pages.
"Hate" is revisionism. Not true? Let Simon Wiesenthal come out and
clarify. Lets hear it from Hilary. We can watch for the stipulations.
>"We are simply asking those who are in the business of selling
>Internet presence and information services, to do the right
>thing, and tell these groups to take their money elsewhere," said
>Cooper.
Again, no examples for the services to go by.
>
>Posted/emailed
>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/myssiwyg.html
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 16 12:35:09 PST 1996
Article: 20320 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "AUSCHWITZ: A History in Photographs"
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:21:51 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>>
>>># The book states that these remains were "scattered on fields or dumped
>>># into nearby ponds or the Sola and Vistula rivers". The Vistula River
>>># is 100 miles north. The Sola I couldn't find on my particular map.
>>>I will check this (and, please, can others check this as well). I
>>>have a feeling this is going to be a memorable "revisionist" quote;
>>>as I recall, the river runs right by Auschwitz.
>>Memorable indeed. The Vistula River runs quite close by Auschwitz,
>>perhaps as close as a mile. But that's just my particluar map.
> My map ("World Atlas" Rand McNally) shows the "(Vistula River)"
>running east - west north of Warsaw. Further north it is identified as
>the "Wista".
> It shows the "Wista" running through or immediately adjacent
>to Krakow. Evidentally "Vistula" is another name or foriegn version of
>the river.
There was a mistake in my identifying the Vistula as the Wista, which
as I pointed out at this stage of the thread responses, thereby making
correction, but nevertheless the remaining responses focused on this
one aspect ignoring the rest of the post.
I take this to mean they used the little paus pax to avoid responding
to the other 99%, because they didn't have the will or the way.
EVASION
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 16 12:35:10 PST 1996
Article: 20322 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Where Are The Rest Of The Jews?
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:31:02 GMT
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Considering how the Holocaust is such a big thing in the "community"
and the tenacity of the Jews to defend their everything, I realize
there are very few out here on alt.revisionism plugging away.
Could this mean that those clones out here are of a minority that
believe in the story enough to defend it?
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 17 09:12:59 PST 1996
Article: 20432 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "WHAT BEING JEWISH MEANS TO ME"
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 03:46:18 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> Dear Ruth Ginsberg and the American Jewish Committee,
>> As to the claims made in your advertisment, N.Y. Times, 1/14/96,
>> stating that Jews are righteously concerned with democracy and rights
>> for others, I have a few questions before I can accept the proposals
>> as being sincere.
>> What record do you have as to the Israeli policy of shooting down
>> little kids, and their policy of condoning torture? What is your view
>> on the Jewish imprisionment of thousands of Palestinians without
>> trial? What is your view on Israeli defiance of U.N. resolutions?
>What does Israeli policy have to do with anything Justice Ginsberg wrote
>about?
Shes the one talking about righteous Jews are for human rights.
Your question implies that all U.S. Jews support Israeli policy,
>which is not the case.
Prove it. One iota.
For that matter, Israeli opinion is deeply
>divided on the military's actions in the occupied territories.
Ever hear about any massive demonstrations in Israel? Any
little one?
Ever hear of an Israeli group called "Peace Now!"?
Their the 'good cop' in the 'good cop, bad cop' act. Their material is
very close to all the rest.
>> Do you think support of Israel should be subject to a democratic vote
>> by the citizens of the U.S.?
>No other aspect of U.S. foreign policy (or domestic policy, for that
>matter) has ever been subject to referendum. Foreign policy is determined
>by the Executive and Legislative branches of government. We elect them,
>so I suppose if a huge majority of voters wanted to end aid to Israel,
>they'd elect representatives who promised to do so.
Marty says 'No'.
>> Do you think that support of Israel is a
>> violation of our 'separation of church and state' clause?
>Have you read the Constitution, Mr. Moran? It has no "separation of
>church and state" clause, although many people informally refer to the
>First Amendment as ensuring separation of church and state. Here's why
>support of Israel (and England, which also has an official state
>religion) is constitutional: The "establishment clause" of the First
>Amendment ("Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of
>religion nor infringing on the free exercise thereof"--quoted from
>memory; sorry if a word or two is off) applies only to the laws of the
>United States only. It does not prohibit the U.S. from establishing
>diplomatic relations with or giving aid to countries which have official
>state churches. (By the way, the U.S. has diplomatic ties with the
>Vatican--I haven't seen you posting complaints about that...)
Marty says 'No'.
>> What is your view of Holocaust revisionism? Do you think revisionists
>> have the right to be heard, in the press, on TV, on campus?
>I haven't seen anything specifically about Ginsberg's views on
>revisionism; I'm reasonably certain she's got a strong record on
>free-speech cases in general. My guess is that she thinks that they are
>idiots whose freedom to speak must nevertheless not be infringed.
Marty says 'No'.
>> What is
>> your view on the continuing activity of the Simon Wiesenthal Center
>> and the ADL to bring censorship to the Worldwide Web? Do you think
>> they should be required to name offending sites explicitly and should
>> be required to present their case before a democratic vote?
>Again, I'm only taking an educated guess here, but I would assume that
>Justice Ginsberg supports the SWC's right to urge private ISP's to change
>their business policies. Whether she agrees with the policies proposed
>by the SWC is anybody's guess.
Marty agrees with Simon Wiesenthal.
>I think she (and other members of the Court) would see your proposal to
>"require" the SWC to frame its communication in any particular manner as
>an unwarranted intrusion on the organization's free speech rights--it would
>be an unconstitutional form of "prior restraint." As for requiring them
>"to present their case before a democratic vote," once again, the U.S.
>system of law and government does not allow for national referenda on any
>issue.
Marty says 'No'.
>You have some decidedly odd ideas about how our government works, Mr. Moran.
You have common Jewish ideas on how our government should work.
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 17 12:03:56 PST 1996
Article: 20432 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "WHAT BEING JEWISH MEANS TO ME"
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 03:46:18 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> Dear Ruth Ginsberg and the American Jewish Committee,
>> As to the claims made in your advertisment, N.Y. Times, 1/14/96,
>> stating that Jews are righteously concerned with democracy and rights
>> for others, I have a few questions before I can accept the proposals
>> as being sincere.
>> What record do you have as to the Israeli policy of shooting down
>> little kids, and their policy of condoning torture? What is your view
>> on the Jewish imprisionment of thousands of Palestinians without
>> trial? What is your view on Israeli defiance of U.N. resolutions?
>What does Israeli policy have to do with anything Justice Ginsberg wrote
>about?
Shes the one talking about righteous Jews are for human rights.
Your question implies that all U.S. Jews support Israeli policy,
>which is not the case.
Prove it. One iota.
For that matter, Israeli opinion is deeply
>divided on the military's actions in the occupied territories.
Ever hear about any massive demonstrations in Israel? Any
little one?
Ever hear of an Israeli group called "Peace Now!"?
Their the 'good cop' in the 'good cop, bad cop' act. Their material is
very close to all the rest.
>> Do you think support of Israel should be subject to a democratic vote
>> by the citizens of the U.S.?
>No other aspect of U.S. foreign policy (or domestic policy, for that
>matter) has ever been subject to referendum. Foreign policy is determined
>by the Executive and Legislative branches of government. We elect them,
>so I suppose if a huge majority of voters wanted to end aid to Israel,
>they'd elect representatives who promised to do so.
Marty says 'No'.
>> Do you think that support of Israel is a
>> violation of our 'separation of church and state' clause?
>Have you read the Constitution, Mr. Moran? It has no "separation of
>church and state" clause, although many people informally refer to the
>First Amendment as ensuring separation of church and state. Here's why
>support of Israel (and England, which also has an official state
>religion) is constitutional: The "establishment clause" of the First
>Amendment ("Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of
>religion nor infringing on the free exercise thereof"--quoted from
>memory; sorry if a word or two is off) applies only to the laws of the
>United States only. It does not prohibit the U.S. from establishing
>diplomatic relations with or giving aid to countries which have official
>state churches. (By the way, the U.S. has diplomatic ties with the
>Vatican--I haven't seen you posting complaints about that...)
Marty says 'No'.
>> What is your view of Holocaust revisionism? Do you think revisionists
>> have the right to be heard, in the press, on TV, on campus?
>I haven't seen anything specifically about Ginsberg's views on
>revisionism; I'm reasonably certain she's got a strong record on
>free-speech cases in general. My guess is that she thinks that they are
>idiots whose freedom to speak must nevertheless not be infringed.
Marty says 'No'.
>> What is
>> your view on the continuing activity of the Simon Wiesenthal Center
>> and the ADL to bring censorship to the Worldwide Web? Do you think
>> they should be required to name offending sites explicitly and should
>> be required to present their case before a democratic vote?
>Again, I'm only taking an educated guess here, but I would assume that
>Justice Ginsberg supports the SWC's right to urge private ISP's to change
>their business policies. Whether she agrees with the policies proposed
>by the SWC is anybody's guess.
Marty agrees with Simon Wiesenthal.
>I think she (and other members of the Court) would see your proposal to
>"require" the SWC to frame its communication in any particular manner as
>an unwarranted intrusion on the organization's free speech rights--it would
>be an unconstitutional form of "prior restraint." As for requiring them
>"to present their case before a democratic vote," once again, the U.S.
>system of law and government does not allow for national referenda on any
>issue.
Marty says 'No'.
>You have some decidedly odd ideas about how our government works, Mr. Moran.
You have common Jewish ideas on how our government should work.
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 17 14:49:24 PST 1996
Article: 20432 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "WHAT BEING JEWISH MEANS TO ME"
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 03:46:18 GMT
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> Dear Ruth Ginsberg and the American Jewish Committee,
>> As to the claims made in your advertisment, N.Y. Times, 1/14/96,
>> stating that Jews are righteously concerned with democracy and rights
>> for others, I have a few questions before I can accept the proposals
>> as being sincere.
>> What record do you have as to the Israeli policy of shooting down
>> little kids, and their policy of condoning torture? What is your view
>> on the Jewish imprisionment of thousands of Palestinians without
>> trial? What is your view on Israeli defiance of U.N. resolutions?
>What does Israeli policy have to do with anything Justice Ginsberg wrote
>about?
Shes the one talking about righteous Jews are for human rights.
Your question implies that all U.S. Jews support Israeli policy,
>which is not the case.
Prove it. One iota.
For that matter, Israeli opinion is deeply
>divided on the military's actions in the occupied territories.
Ever hear about any massive demonstrations in Israel? Any
little one?
Ever hear of an Israeli group called "Peace Now!"?
Their the 'good cop' in the 'good cop, bad cop' act. Their material is
very close to all the rest.
>> Do you think support of Israel should be subject to a democratic vote
>> by the citizens of the U.S.?
>No other aspect of U.S. foreign policy (or domestic policy, for that
>matter) has ever been subject to referendum. Foreign policy is determined
>by the Executive and Legislative branches of government. We elect them,
>so I suppose if a huge majority of voters wanted to end aid to Israel,
>they'd elect representatives who promised to do so.
Marty says 'No'.
>> Do you think that support of Israel is a
>> violation of our 'separation of church and state' clause?
>Have you read the Constitution, Mr. Moran? It has no "separation of
>church and state" clause, although many people informally refer to the
>First Amendment as ensuring separation of church and state. Here's why
>support of Israel (and England, which also has an official state
>religion) is constitutional: The "establishment clause" of the First
>Amendment ("Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of
>religion nor infringing on the free exercise thereof"--quoted from
>memory; sorry if a word or two is off) applies only to the laws of the
>United States only. It does not prohibit the U.S. from establishing
>diplomatic relations with or giving aid to countries which have official
>state churches. (By the way, the U.S. has diplomatic ties with the
>Vatican--I haven't seen you posting complaints about that...)
Marty says 'No'.
>> What is your view of Holocaust revisionism? Do you think revisionists
>> have the right to be heard, in the press, on TV, on campus?
>I haven't seen anything specifically about Ginsberg's views on
>revisionism; I'm reasonably certain she's got a strong record on
>free-speech cases in general. My guess is that she thinks that they are
>idiots whose freedom to speak must nevertheless not be infringed.
Marty says 'No'.
>> What is
>> your view on the continuing activity of the Simon Wiesenthal Center
>> and the ADL to bring censorship to the Worldwide Web? Do you think
>> they should be required to name offending sites explicitly and should
>> be required to present their case before a democratic vote?
>Again, I'm only taking an educated guess here, but I would assume that
>Justice Ginsberg supports the SWC's right to urge private ISP's to change
>their business policies. Whether she agrees with the policies proposed
>by the SWC is anybody's guess.
Marty agrees with Simon Wiesenthal.
>I think she (and other members of the Court) would see your proposal to
>"require" the SWC to frame its communication in any particular manner as
>an unwarranted intrusion on the organization's free speech rights--it would
>be an unconstitutional form of "prior restraint." As for requiring them
>"to present their case before a democratic vote," once again, the U.S.
>system of law and government does not allow for national referenda on any
>issue.
Marty says 'No'.
>You have some decidedly odd ideas about how our government works, Mr. Moran.
You have common Jewish ideas on how our government should work.
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 18 02:21:00 PST 1996
Article: 20507 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "WHAT BEING JEWISH MEANS TO ME"
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 01:17:09 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>
>> I believe the record shows that Yale expresses ideal examples of
>> Talmudic law. Of course it is cited in Ginsberg's doting advertisment
>> on Judaic concern how Jews swarm to the legal profession, which makes
>> one wonder why so many people have such a negative attitude about the
>> profession in the U.S., what with all this Talmudic righteousness. In
>> reality it is those little Yale minds galore. No, no. Their not in for
>> the money, their in it for the concern for justice.
>>
>>>>>
> The point is simple. Your a gutless liar who hates Jews. Please point
>out a single post in which I have ever cited the Talmud. C'mon Tommy, another
>lie for you to dodge.
Point out where I said you "cite" the Talmud. I said you act the
Talmud.
> --YFE
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 18 14:23:35 PST 1996
Article: 20560 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No Zyclone - then DDT
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 15:11:27 GMT
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jabacon@ibm.net wrote:
>In <4damfk$190@wi.combase.com>, mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>> Neo-nazis and neo-Joshuans are no different.
>The difference is that the "neo-Joshuans" don't actively continue to broadcast
>racist and genocidal messages -- whereas the neo-Nazis do.
Judaism is a racist movement. The born of the mother connection is a
fact, is it not? Jewish accusations that their enemies are racists,
means what? The most previlaint theme in the Bible is lineage
obssession, is it not? What does the term "half Jewish" indicate? What
is menat by "looks Jewish"?
>Justin Bacon
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 18 14:23:36 PST 1996
Article: 20561 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 15:31:29 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
># Did Zyclone B come in gas form?
>
>It was explained to you numerous times already that Zyklon-B
>is *not* gas, but a carrier soaked with the gas. When the
>Zyklon is released from its container, the HCN (which is the
>cyanide gas) starts to evaporate from it.
>
The only containers I've seen are those little cans. I don't recall if
they are tin or cardboard. Considering this, do you say that when the
can is opened up gas immediately emminates from it? Do you know if any
other kinds of containers were found? Why wouldn't the Germans have
shipped the "gas" in pure form, under pressure for ready introduction,
facilitating the alleged process by time and suffering? It I recollect
rightly, the cans had seated lids on them, not indicating vacuum pack.
># And how long does it take to disepate into a gas?
>
>According to Dr. Ulrich Roessler, who recently dug up the
>original Zyklon-B patents in Germany, nearly all would
>evaporate in half-an-hour. However, the rate of evaporation
>is faster in the beginning, when the carrier is saturated
>with the gas.
>
This would indicate that there would always be some residual gas left
in the carrying vehicle. Pellets? Where is this "recently dugup"
patent and any report?
>Since the concentration of the gas near the carrier is very
>high, it would take immediate effect.
>
"Near the carrier" - "take immediate effect"?
>
>-Danny Keren.
>--
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>-Lu Xun.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 18 14:23:37 PST 1996
Article: 20564 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SUSPICIONS
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 15:52:05 GMT
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>
>> So far it seems that this post is too hot to handle. And here I
>> thought that chutzpah had no limits.
>Actually, it was too bloody LONG to handle. Since you mentioned me in
>it, I meant to reply, but my server dropped the article before I got
>around to it. If you'd re-post the article or e-mail me a copy, I'd be
>happy to reply.
Yea, yea, yea, sure. You're just going to have to wait until it drops
off my screen. I take note of your first blurt, "Actually, it was too
bloody LONG to handle."
>>>>Posted and E-mailed. Followups to alt.revisionism, please. E-mailed
>replies to this message will be posted to Usenet unless otherwise
>requested by sender<<<
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 18 14:23:38 PST 1996
Article: 20565 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where Are The Rest Of The Jews?
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:15:02 GMT
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laweissman@aol.com (LAWeissman) wrote:
>We're out here reading your asinine lies. We often just choose not to
>respond because you're so obviously lacking in intelligence, class,
>tolerance, personality, etc. that it wouldn't even be a challenge.
>Revisionists I'm finding are mental midgets and most likely genitally
>challenged.
Okay heres one. "Genitally challenged". Interesting. I do note the
Bible being phallically obsessed.
"Wouldn't even be a challenge"? If it would be so easy, why don't you
come out and show the power of your knowledge and logic, instead of
just boasting about it?
Anyway, a dormant mentality speaks up and it turns out it has
the same characteristics as the active peers.
>Larry
>Larry
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 18 14:23:39 PST 1996
Article: 20567 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:24:47 GMT
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anakin@pinc.com (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:
>In article <4dhsi4$npp@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>> Auschwitz - Birkenau was about the size of a pro football complex.
>Auschwitz was a comglomeration of a number of camps, collectively much
>much larger than a football field.
The immediate complex where all the mass killing is said to have taken
place, Auschwitz "main camp" and Birkenau, about the size of a
pro-football complex.
>> is said that at times 25,000 were killed in one day? They came in on
>> trains, 200 to a car? The hundred or more cars pulling in day after
>> day? Full of people? Filed off in due time? Gassed? Removed to
>> creamtion ovens, burnt in open pits just outside of the camp? And it
>> was all kept a secret?
>Not a secret. People knew.
Then why do the Holocaust perpetuators constantly claim and try to
show it was all hush, hush?
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 18 14:23:41 PST 1996
Article: 20568 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SUSPICIONS
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:28:35 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>Marty Kelley wrote:
>>On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> So far it seems that this post is too hot to handle. And here I
>>> thought that chutzpah had no limits.
>>Actually, it was too bloody LONG to handle. Since you mentioned me in
>>it, I meant to reply, but my server dropped the article before I got
>>around to it. If you'd re-post the article or e-mail me a copy, I'd be
>>happy to reply.
> Yea, yea, yea, sure. You're just going to have to wait until it drops
>off my screen. I take note of your first blurt, "Actually, it was too
>bloody LONG to handle."
PS Looks like its time to wave menorah banner Marty. Go ahead.
>>>>>Posted and E-mailed. Followups to alt.revisionism, please. E-mailed
>>replies to this message will be posted to Usenet unless otherwise
>>requested by sender<<<
>>----------------------
>>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 18 14:23:42 PST 1996
Article: 20569 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 15:47:40 GMT
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jabacon@ibm.net wrote:
>In <4da0rh$4ha@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:
>> It was an error. The question is, who told the story that the gas
>>came out of the showerheads?
>First off, thank you for responding to Tom's arguments -- it means I'm having a
>a slightly easier time catching up on the mail I've fallen behind on because
>now I don't have to take time out to reiterate what has already been said.
>Now, I do have a brief question for the NG to answer: What is the deal in
>"Schindler's List" where water streams down on the prisoners? If the
>showerheads were fake this obviously couldn't have happened. WAS there a
>gas chamber where the showers worked; or is Spielberg actually guilty of
>rewriting a bit of history here?
According to accounts including one in "Auschwitz:The History in
Photographs" there were showers for the prisoners. Water showers that
is. According to a map of Birkenau in Yehuda Bauer's "The History of
the Holocaust" a road goes from two kremas, between which the rail
line terminates, to the other side of the camp, a couple of hundred
yards, to two more kremas with the water shower facilities located
directly between.
(Considering the claims that the whole extermination process was set
up for secrecy, to keep it unknown to the inmates in the camps and
others, there must have been a tunnel going from the inmate camp areas
to the water shower facilities, to keep them from noticing all these
people being herded from the rail area to the kremas on the other side
of the camp, thousands a day. Right?)
Where is the tunnel? Maybe it was a covered bridge.
>Justin Bacon
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 19 10:03:14 PST 1996
Article: 20663 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:14:16 GMT
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rjg@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>Josh Klein wrote:
>>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>>> The only containers I've seen are those little cans. I don't recall if
>>> they are tin or cardboard. Considering this, do you say that when the
>>> can is opened up gas immediately emminates from it? Do you know if any
>>> other kinds of containers were found? Why wouldn't the Germans have
>>> shipped the "gas" in pure form, under pressure for ready introduction,
>>> facilitating the alleged process by time and suffering? It I recollect
>>> rightly, the cans had seated lids on them, not indicating vacuum pack.
>Perhaps if you do some thinking you can answer your own question. Would
>you describe HCN in its pure form as a gas or as something else?
>What in your expert opinion are the hazards associated with handling
>pure hydrogen cyanide versus Zyklon-B?
>Awaiting enlightenment,
You seem to know. Go ahead.
>Rich Green
>--
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Richard J. Green
>Department of Chemistry
>Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 19 10:03:15 PST 1996
Article: 20664 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:16:14 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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hmazal@txdirect.net wrote:
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>[Dr. Keren's instructions to nonbelievers on a simple method
>for self immolation deleted]
>>
>> Under his nose. How much would that be? Is that what they did at
>> wherever? Did Zyclone B come in gas form? Or was it pellets or powder.
>> And how long does it take to disepate into a gas? Say a spoon full.
>> How long before it is gone exposed to the air?
>Mr. Moran's abysmal ignorance of things chemical makes it difficult
>to answer his inane article in words of two or less syllables.
>1) Open a 250 gram can of Zyklon B that has been kept at zero degrees C.
>2) Stick nose into can for five seconds. Inhale deeply.
>3)Die
Seems to me you already tried it.
>Zyklon-B consisted of 5% HCN adsorbed (look it up) onto a substrate
>consisting of either treated diatomaceous earth or silica gel. In some, but not
>all, cases, Zyklon-B included a powerful lachrimator and irritant. I will
>leave it to Mr. Moran and his abilities as a revisionist mathematician
>to work out little things like vapor pressure of HCN at zero degrees C,
>what one tablespoon of Zyklon-B contains in the way of HCN, and how
>deep a snort of the contants of the casn could be needed to send him
>into never-never land for good.
>Harry W. Mazal OBE
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 19 10:03:17 PST 1996
Article: 20667 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "WHAT BEING JEWISH MEANS TO ME"
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:33:33 GMT
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> Marty Kelley wrote:
>>
>> >On Sun, 14 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>>
>> >> Do you think support of Israel should be subject to a democratic vote
>> >> by the citizens of the U.S.?
>>
>> >No other aspect of U.S. foreign policy (or domestic policy, for that
>> >matter) has ever been subject to referendum. Foreign policy is determined
>> >by the Executive and Legislative branches of government. We elect them,
>> >so I suppose if a huge majority of voters wanted to end aid to Israel,
>> >they'd elect representatives who promised to do so.
>>
>> Marty says 'No'.
>it's a bit more complex than that, Mr. Moran: I say "no" because the laws
>of the U.S., most especially the Constitution,, do not include any
>provision for direct referendum on ANY matter of government policy. I
>repeat: Have you ever read the Constitution, Mr. Moran?
Even though referendums are voted on regulary in the U.S. Marty Kelley
disagrees.
>>
>> >> Do you think that support of Israel is a
>> >> violation of our 'separation of church and state' clause?
>>
>> >Have you read the Constitution, Mr. Moran? It has no "separation of
>> >church and state" clause, although many people informally refer to the
>> >First Amendment as ensuring separation of church and state. Here's why
>> >support of Israel (and England, which also has an official state
>> >religion) is constitutional: The "establishment clause" of the First
>> >Amendment ("Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of
>> >religion nor infringing on the free exercise thereof"--quoted from
>> >memory; sorry if a word or two is off) applies only to the laws of the
>> >United States only. It does not prohibit the U.S. from establishing
>> >diplomatic relations with or giving aid to countries which have official
>> >state churches. (By the way, the U.S. has diplomatic ties with the
>> >Vatican--I haven't seen you posting complaints about that...)
>>
>> Marty says 'No'.
>Tom Moran says, "I haven't read the Constitution, and don't have the
>slightest idea of what I'm talking about" (Hey, that was fun!)
I see you have put this statement into quote marks. Now maybe you can
show where it's origin.
>> >> What is your view of Holocaust revisionism? Do you think revisionists
>> >> have the right to be heard, in the press, on TV, on campus?
>>
>> >I haven't seen anything specifically about Ginsberg's views on
>> >revisionism; I'm reasonably certain she's got a strong record on
>> >free-speech cases in general. My guess is that she thinks that they are
>> >idiots whose freedom to speak must nevertheless not be infringed.
>>
>> Marty says 'No'.
>This time you appear not to have even read what I wrote, Mr. Moran. What
>do the words "freedom of speech must nevertheless not be infringed" mean
>in your universe?
>>
>> >> What is
>> >> your view on the continuing activity of the Simon Wiesenthal Center
>> >> and the ADL to bring censorship to the Worldwide Web? Do you think
>> >> they should be required to name offending sites explicitly and should
>> >> be required to present their case before a democratic vote?
>>
>> >Again, I'm only taking an educated guess here, but I would assume that
>> >Justice Ginsberg supports the SWC's right to urge private ISP's to change
>> >their business policies. Whether she agrees with the policies proposed
>> >by the SWC is anybody's guess.
>>
>> Marty agrees with Simon Wiesenthal.
>Actually, I disagree vehemently with the content of the SWC's attempt to
>persuade ISP's. I do, however, think they have every right in the world
>to make their pitch. I also think that ISP's would do well to reject it.
"Vehemently"?
>> >I think she (and other members of the Court) would see your proposal to
>> >"require" the SWC to frame its communication in any particular manner as
>> >an unwarranted intrusion on the organization's free speech rights--it would
>> >be an unconstitutional form of "prior restraint." As for requiring them
>> >"to present their case before a democratic vote," once again, the U.S.
>> >system of law and government does not allow for national referenda on any
>> >issue.
>>
>> Marty says 'No'.
>Again, because the Constitution does not work that way.
>>
>> >You have some decidedly odd ideas about how our government works, Mr. Moran.
>>
>> You have common Jewish ideas on how our government should work.
>I guess that means "common American ways of thinking," since no one with
>even a high-school-level understanding of the Constitution thinks that
>U.S. law allows for the making of national law through referenda instead
>of through Congress.
You mean like Californias Prop. 187, Arizona's English only in
government offices, Oregon's Prop on Suicide, or props on term limits?
>Tell you what, Mr. Moran: I'm
>willing to make another wager with you (you never replied to my previous
>offer): Show me any section of the U.S. Constitution, or any Supreme
>Court decision, that says that the U.S. government allows national
>referenda to decide ANY issue of domestic or foreign policy, and I'll
>send Ernst Zundel OR the IHR (your choice) a check for $25. I'll also
>apologize to you for saying that you're an idiot. If you are unable to
>produce any such evidence, you will send a $25 check to Nizkor. Deal?
>Have you read the Constitution, Mr. Moran? I have, and I recommend you
>do so before you make further idiotic statements about it.
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 19 10:03:17 PST 1996
Article: 20668 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "WHAT BEING JEWISH MEANS TO ME"
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:38:40 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>
>> JEWISH LAW SUPPORTS, CONDONS, ABETS THE SHOOTING
>DOWN IN THE STREETS
>> OF LITTLE KIDS FOR THEIR THROWING STONES. THIS IS ABSOLUTE.
>>>>>
> You're absolutely right about the law of Israel. So does the law of
>every jurisdiction in the United States including all 50 states and all federal law.
>British law, from whence this principle was adopted, does as well. It was one of
>the principles held by the founding fathers of this country who certainly applied it
>their enemies. This is absolute.
> When have you criticized the United States for holding to the same
>legal principle?
This is a Jewish interpratation of U.S. law to fit to and justify the
actions of Isrtael. I recall Kent State. The resultant uproar doesn't
support your Ziointerpretation. Nor the Rany Weaver case.
YALE EIDEKIN ENDORESES SHOOTING DOWN LITTLE KIDS FOR THROWING STONES.
> --YFE
From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 20 10:42:39 PST 1996
Article: 20725 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 00:57:05 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
># The only containers I've seen are those little cans. I don't recall if
># they are tin or cardboard. Considering this, do you say that when the
># can is opened up gas immediately emminates from it?
>Yes.
># Do you know if any other kinds of containers were found?
>Never heard of any others.
I have seen relics before, once att the old Simon Wiesnthal Museum and
again at the Washington Museum, but I forget if they were tin or
cardboard.
># Why wouldn't the Germans have shipped the "gas" in pure form, under
># pressure for ready introduction,
>Because it's much easier to use Zyklon-B, which is why it was invented
>and why it was so popular.
You mean that Zyklone B was "invented" to kill people?
Much easier than what exactly? Other forms and packaging of Zyclone B,
and/or other types of gas?
What kind of tests do you know of that were done to show that
it was easier to use - on human beings?
>-Danny Keren.
>--
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>-Lu Xun.
From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 20 10:42:46 PST 1996
Article: 20758 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ANNE FRANK DIARY - HOW WAS IT FOUND?
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:09:13 GMT
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Jeff wrote:
>The Franks had been arrested and had been taken away.......
>What happened next? Who found the diary?
>1) "The franks and their friends were being taken away. MIEP remained frozen
>in her chair, too shocked, too stunned to move. Then she heard the sound of
>familar voices. ELLI and HENK were returning. Saying little to one another,
>the THREE left the office and moved down the hallway and on up the stairs to
>the hiding place. Moving from room to room they saw overturned furniture,
>books scattered, and drawers ransacked."
>[Page 23. A place to Hide. True Sories of Holocaust Rescues. Jayne Pettit.
>USA 1993.
>2) "At the end of the afternoon, the two [MIEP and BEP] went upstairs
>together with JAN GIES and VAN MAAREN, the warehouseman, and entered the
>secret annex. It was in chaos. the pages of Annes diary lay scattered on
>the floor and were gathered up along with other papers and books and taken
>downstairs."
>[Anne Frank: Beyond the Diary: A photographic Rememberance. Puffin books
>1995]
>3) "The secret annexe was plundered during the police raid. A few days
>later, in a pile of old newspapers left lying on the floor, an OFFICE
>CLEANER found the notebooks containing Annes diary. Not knowing what they
>were, he handed them to Miep and Elli."
>[Page 227 Anne Frank Diary. Published by Guild publishing by arrangement
>with Valentine, Mitchell and Co Ltd 1980]
>4) "Henk said right away to van Matto, As soon as your assistants are away
>lock the door and come back to us. When van Matto returned, Henk said to
>Elli, van Matto and me [Miep Gies], Now weill go upstairs and see what the
>situation is.
>[Page 157. Anne Frank Remembered by Miep Gies 1987.]
>Anybody got an answer to this one yet?
There is no answer. It can only be inferred upon.
It seems to possess a certain analogical significance.
>Jeff
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
> Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 20 10:42:47 PST 1996
Article: 20759 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:12:14 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>In article <4dltjv$gk7@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> jabacon@ibm.net wrote:
>>
>> >In <4da0rh$4ha@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) writes:
>> >> It was an error. The question is, who told the story that the gas
>> >>came out of the showerheads?
>>
>> >First off, thank you for responding to Tom's arguments -- it means I'm
>having a
>> >a slightly easier time catching up on the mail I've fallen behind on because
>> >now I don't have to take time out to reiterate what has already been said.
>>
>> >Now, I do have a brief question for the NG to answer: What is the deal in
>> >"Schindler's List" where water streams down on the prisoners? If the
>> >showerheads were fake this obviously couldn't have happened. WAS there a
>> >gas chamber where the showers worked; or is Spielberg actually guilty of
>> >rewriting a bit of history here?
>>
>> According to accounts including one in "Auschwitz:The History in Photographs"
>> there were showers for the prisoners. Water showers that is.
>And where is this described, exactly? In what context? The only mentions
>I've found in _Auschwitz: a history in photographs_ are:
"And where is this described exactly?" Page 18, "Context"? -
"Changes of clothing and underwear were available only every few
months: in the filthy conditions of the camp, clothes were always
infested with lice. Periodic delousings not only gave no relief but
were an additional torture: in summer the showers were scalding, in
winter icy cold."
Strange thing about this change of clothes "only every few months" and
"the filthy conditions of the camp". All the photos in the very book
do not support this. What is very apparant is the cleanliness of it
all, including prisoners clothes. As in one sign in a barracks, said
to still exist today, it says (translation) "Cleanliness is health".
I take the referrence to showers to mean with water.
>"Auschwitz II-Birkenau. Interior of the building where new prisoners were
>registered. It was called the 'Sauna' becuase of the showers that were
>part of the registration process. Tatooing of prisoners with their numbers
>was also done here (Photo taken by the SS, 1944)," p.80 (caption to photo
>58).
>"Auschwitz II-Birkenau. Group of new women prisoners. On arrival
>prisoners' heads were shaved and they were sent to shower and be deloused
>and disinfected. Their personal details were then registered and they were
>given camp clothing and in most cases tatooed with their prison numbers.
>(Photo taken by the SS, 1944)," p.80 (caption to photo 59).
>"Auschwitz II-Birkenau. Construction of the shower block (the 'Sauna'),
>brought into use in December 1943. In the background are Gas Chamber and
>Crematorium IV (right) and Gas Chamber and Crematorium V (among the trees,
>top left). (Photo taken by the SS, 1943)," p.93 (caption to photo 77).
It doesn't say anything about "'sauna"'. It says construction, with
out further detail. The "'sauna"' is your's. Funny how all these
photos of "mass exrtermination" facilities were taken by the SS, who
are said to have tried to keep it all secret and destroyed evidence.
>Notice that it is mentioned that the prisoners who were _registered_ where
>sent to the showers in the "Sauna" after their arrival and induction into
>the camp. (This doesn't mean that they _weren't_ killed at a later date,
>as many were when the blocks were "swept" and those selected were sent to
>the gas-chambers.) It was common for those slated for _immediate_
>extermination to _not_ be registered, but sent to the gas-chambers
>immeduiately on arrival. This was especially true during the "Hungarian
>operation" where the great majority were gassed on arrival without being
>registered.
>I also noticed that you forgot to mention that _Auschwitz: a history in
>photographs_ also described the _fake_ showerheads:
Actually I didn't read all the copy. I was looking for photographic
evidence. Did you say "discribed"?
>"Auschwitz II-Birkenau. After a selection. The column of people seen here
>are Jews being led away to the gas chambers, having been selected for
>immediate death. Their route takes them past the barrack used as the
>_Blockfu"hrerstube_ and on to the main road of the camp, which led
>directly to Gas Chambers and Crematoria II and III. To prevent panic among
>the victims, the SS told them that they were being taken to the
>showers--indeed the gas chambers were fitted out inside to resemble
>shower-rooms. (Photo taken by the SS, 1944)," p.145 (caption to photo
>154).
Actuall I don't seethis one in my list of photos I selected as being
anywhere relevant to the story of mass extermination. Before I do
check it out, are you saying the photo is one of the approach to the
"gas chambers" or a photo of the exterior, which would show that they
were made to look like showers buildings?
>"False showerheads like these were mounted in the ceilings of the gas
>chambers in Auschwitz II-Birkenau." p.153 (caption to photo 161).
So we can assume that "shower heads like these" are photos of real
shower heads and not photos of the simulated shower heads.
>"...After undressing, the Jews were sent into the gas chamber: it had
>shower installations and water pipes so that it would look just like a
>shower room, but in fact it was a gas chamber...." -Rudolph Ho"ss. p.154.
Ho'ss again? He seems to be the only one who saw all this? Is this the
same Ho'ss Holocaust books say was insane?
>Now why is that, Moran? Why _did_ you "forget" to mention this?
Why is what? Forget what? Ho'ss?
>> According to a map of Birkenau in Yehuda Bauer's "The History of
>> the Holocaust" a road goes from two kremas, between which the rail
>> line terminates, to the other side of the camp, a couple of hundred
>> yards, to two more kremas with the water shower facilities located
>> directly between.
>This would be the "Sauna" next to the "Canada" compound.
No. That, in Bauer's diagram is located in Auschwitz. The one Bauer
shows is marked "bath" between two "gas chamber and crematoria"
complexes, each complex having two buildings of identical design. He
shows thirty buildings between the complexes he identifies as
"storerooms of victims property". Do you know if the camp alloted
thirty buildings, shown as the same size as the rest of the barracks,
as storerooms?
>> (Considering the claims that the whole extermination process was set
>> up for secrecy, to keep it unknown to the inmates in the camps and
>> others...
>To keep it secret from the inmates? The camp guards? Hardly. The prisoners
>sent to the gas-chamber on arrival were marched right past the
>_Blockfu"hrerstube_ and down the main road of the camp for all to see.
>There were plenty of eyewitnesses to the mass-murders, like the
>_Sonderkommando_ and other prisoners, not to mention the guards and kapos.
>There were also stories and rumors describing the gassings circulating
>among the prisoners and local populace. As to keeping it secret from
>"others?" _Which_ "others" might this be? "Others" on the outside? "Other"
>countries?
Well I'm going to have to put this into my search program and type in
"secret" to see how it looks nextt to all those other accounts of how
it was all set up to keep it secret. So your saying that they would
march in ten to twenty five thousnad people a day, past anyone who
would be looking that way, and would see them go in but not come out
or show up to be registered in the camps? Eye witnesses. All you hear
out of you is "eye witnesses". But then there are those eye witnesses
who testify other wise.
>Though the Nazis were quite tight-lipped about what was going on at the
>extermination camps (The SS guards who worked at the camps were sworn to
>secrecy and to divulge information about the extermination camps was a
>crime), this, of course, didn't ensure that knowledge of what was taking
>place at the camps _was_ kept secret- it wasn't. Eventually reports of the
>mass-murder found its way out, and into the international press and to the
>Allied governemnts.
I;'ve seen some of these accounts, they were electrocuted, steamed to
death, aphixiated. Everything but gassed.
>> ...there must have been a tunnel going from the inmate camp areas
>> to the water shower facilities, to keep them from noticing all these
>> people being herded from the rail area to the kremas on the other side
>> of the camp...
>Really? _Why_ must there have been such a tunnel? Because it fits with
>_your_ prejudices? Who says these people _weren't_ noticed? They _were_,
>after all, marched down the main camp road on their way to the
>gas-chambers. Who was not supposed to notice them and why?
>> ...thousands a day. Right?)
>Yep. Thousands a day, Moran. Especially from 1944 to 1945, when over
>400,000 Hungarian Jews were sent to die at Auschwitz over a period of
>several months.
This is the third time you say "especially" the Hungarians. The whole
thing is said to have been set up to keep anyone from knowing. The
revisionists don't say this, you peers do. Sticks and branches in the
fencing, done late at night, and other things I will statrt to make
note of to show all the inconsistanceies.
>> Where is the tunnel? Maybe it was a covered bridge.
>And maybe it is simply your fetid imagination grasping for straws. It's a
>denier thing. Quite common, if disgusting. But then nobody ever said you
>_weren't_ a digusting little worm, Moran.
You say it is my "fetid imagination" and end up calling me a
"disgusting little worm" which shows you are so emotional you can't
think straight. You want to believe it. The more Jews you could prove
were killed the happier you would be.
Let me tell you this right now, to keep selling this story in it's
present form is a 'hate crime'.
>Mark
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 20 10:42:51 PST 1996
Article: 20776 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where Are The Rest Of The Moran Clones?
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 16:18:39 GMT
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On 17 Jan 1996, Michael P. Stein wrote:
>> Considering how there are forty-nine times as many non-Jews as Jews in
>> the U. S., I realize there are very few non-Jews here on alt.revisionism
>> plugging away at denying the Holocaust. If there are ten Jews here
>> defending it, then there ought to be 490 non-Jews tearing it down.
>> (Everyone else: shhh!)
>>
>> Do you see 490 little Tommy clones here doing that? I don't. Could
>> this mean that the people like you out here are of a superduperminority
>> who disbelieve the story enough to deny it?
>Perhaps it's a bit premature to announce results of the Statistically
>Invalid Moran Poll (tm), but I would like to point out that I have so far
>not received any e-mail espousing support of Mr. Moran.
MIKE STEIN SAYS THE VAIDITY OF A POST IS DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL TO HOW
MUCH SUPPORTING E-MAIL HE GETS.
You mean to say you get e-mail from people saying they support the
other side? How would anyone know how much e-mail you get, on any
subject or view?
Since it is rare for revisionists to pop in and reply for another,
contrary to common practice of the Holocaust peers, and that they seem
to be able to stand alone, contrary to Holocaust peers, you don't see
the same standards you seem to hold dear.
>Prob'ly just the "silent majority" effect.
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 20 10:42:53 PST 1996
Article: 20777 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "WHAT BEING JEWISH MEANS TO ME"
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 16:18:53 GMT
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>: > When have you criticized the United States for holding to the same
>: >legal principle?
>: This is a Jewish interpratation of U.S. law to fit to and justify the
>: actions of Isrtael.
>Who is "Isrtael"?
>: I recall Kent State.
>Apparently, you don't. See below.
>: The resultant uproar doesn't
>: support your Ziointerpretation.
>The troopers involved in the Kent State shooting were acquitted.
This I don't know about. Nevertheless there was a trial. Nevertheless
there was a big stink.
>: Nor the Rany Weaver case.
>The issues in the Weaver case are entirely different.
Your convenience?
>: YALE EIDEKIN ENDORESES SHOOTING DOWN LITTLE KIDS FOR THROWING STONES.
>He does? I see nothing in his post which indicates this.
>Bill
From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 20 10:42:53 PST 1996
Article: 20778 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "WHAT BEING JEWISH MEANS TO ME"
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 16:19:02 GMT
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: Even though referendums are voted on regulary in the U.S. Marty Kelley
>: disagrees.
>Tom, can you name one instance in which a referendum was held on a matter
>of national law or policy?
So you are saying that if it never was, it should never be?
>: >> >I haven't seen anything specifically about Ginsberg's views on
>: >> >revisionism; I'm reasonably certain she's got a strong record on
>: >> >free-speech cases in general. My guess is that she thinks that they are
>: >> >idiots whose freedom to speak must nevertheless not be infringed.
>: >>
>: >> Marty says 'No'.
>: >This time you appear not to have even read what I wrote, Mr. Moran. What
>: >do the words "freedom of speech must nevertheless not be infringed" mean
>: >in your universe?
>I note you didn't respond to this one, Tom. Why not?
>: >I guess that means "common American ways of thinking," since no one with
>: >even a high-school-level understanding of the Constitution thinks that
>: >U.S. law allows for the making of national law through referenda instead
>: >of through Congress.
>: You mean like Californias Prop. 187, Arizona's English only in
>: government offices, Oregon's Prop on Suicide, or props on term limits?
>Tom, which one of the issues you listed above relates to federal law or
>matters of U.S. national policy?
None of them. Now what?
>Bill
From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 20 10:42:54 PST 1996
Article: 20779 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SUSPICIONS
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 16:19:17 GMT
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> Marty Kelley wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Actually, it was too bloody LONG to handle. Since you mentioned me in
>> >it, I meant to reply, but my server dropped the article before I got
>> >around to it. If you'd re-post the article or e-mail me a copy, I'd be
>> >happy to reply.
>>
>> Yea, yea, yea, sure. You're just going to have to wait until it drops
>> off my screen. I take note of your first blurt, "Actually, it was too
>> bloody LONG to handle."
>You know, Mr. Moran, you're awfully hard to make sense of. When I noted
>in one thread that a lot of messages you'd posted had expired (You ARE
>aware, aren't you, that different servers drop Usenet articles at
>different times, aren't you?), you said to go ahead and ask for a repost
>of any I was missing. So when I ask for a repost, you reply with this.
>Astounding.
>Fortunately, Mike Stein has e-mailed me a copy, so I will reply to your
>"Suspicions" post soon. (And it IS too bloody long! Learn to edit, young
>man!)
There you go. Now isn't that better than having the post up on the
screen twice, for those who still have it?
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 20 10:42:55 PST 1996
Article: 20780 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: COMPU SERVE LIED
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 16:19:37 GMT
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ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor) wrote:
>On Sat, 13 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> Marty Kelley wrote:
>>
>> >If Mr. Moran wants to speak in Tucson, I'd adamantly support his right to
>> >speak. And I'd adamantly protest virtually everything he'd be likely to say.
>>
>> "Protest"?
>"Protest: .. To give formal expression to objection, dissent or disapproval;
>to make a formal (often written) delaration against some proposal, decision,
>or action"
You mean go to the Dean and protest? You mean write various college
heads and protest against the right to speak? You mean shout and rant
while discussion was going on? Or what?
I forgot to ask you about "Adamantly".
>p. 1693 of Vol.II of the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (1982)
>d.A.
From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 20 10:42:56 PST 1996
Article: 20781 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "AUSCHWITZ: A History in Photographs"
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 16:27:45 GMT
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ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor) wrote:
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>:
>: > My map ("World Atlas" Rand McNally) shows the "(Vistula River)"
>: >running east - west north of Warsaw. Further north it is identified as
>: >the "Wista".
>: > It shows the "Wista" running through or immediately adjacent
>: >to Krakow. Evidentally "Vistula" is another name or foriegn version of
>: >the river.
>:
>:
>: There was a mistake in my identifying the Vistula as the Wista,
>According to "The New International Atlas" (copyright 1994 by Rand McNally)
>reprinted on pages 336 and 337 of The Macquarie World Atlas, 1995,
>there is *NO* river called Wista in Poland.
>(The index of the Macquarie Atlas lists:
>"Wisner
> Wissembourg
> Wissous
> Wister
> Wisznice..."
>(In case your wandering, the geographic location of Wister is given as
>34 58N 94 43W which places it in Arkansas.)
>It also lists
>"Wishram
> Wisla
> Wisla
> Wisley Aerodrome..."
>The "Wisla" is spellt with the same Polish character that begins the name
>of Lodz, a letter ell with a short upward sloping stroke crossing the
>vertical about half-way up.
>There are two listings for Wisla because it is the name of a town/village
>in the Carpathian Mountains in Poland, near where the borders of Poland,
>Slovakia and the Czech Republic all meet.
>It is also the name of a river which had its source nearby. This river
>is called "Wisla" in Polish, "Weichsel" in German and "Vistula" in
>English. According to the Rand McNally map, the said Wisla/Weichsel/Vistula
>meets another river, the Sola, in the town/city of Oswiecem/Auschwitz and
>flows on to the Baltic Sea via Cracow and Warsaw.
>: which
>: as I pointed out at this stage of the thread responses, thereby making
>: correction, but nevertheless the remaining responses focused on this
>: one aspect ignoring the rest of the post.
>It was you tourself who made an issue of the names of and locations of
>the rivers Vistula and Sola, casting doubts on testimony to their
>use as dumping ground for human ashes from the Auschwitz Summer Camp
>for International Zionist Conspirators by doubting their existence.
>The very source you cite for their non-existence verifies the very
>claims you sought to disprove.
>That makes you a prevaricator, dissimulator, and disingenuous
>obfuscator. To put it more bluntly, if yours were as big as you are,
>you'd be enough to ensure the entire US Armed Forces be well-hung.
>d.A.
>: I take this to mean they used the little paus pax to avoid responding
>: to the other 99%, because they didn't have the will or the way.
>: EVASION
>:
My source shows "Wista". Evidentally by your own research you have to
recognize there are a variety of names for the river. Your little
referrence to Wister being in Arkansas, is "Wister" not Wista. You do
cite "Wisla", which is close to Wista. Perhaps my atlas edition has a
typo. Either way, it was corrected, and here you are still out here,
plugging away.
From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan 21 08:38:52 PST 1996
Article: 20867 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 14:36:40 GMT
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pgroff@txdirect.com (pgroff) wrote:
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>>In article <4dltjv$gk7@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>> jabacon@ibm.net wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >In <4da0rh$4ha@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) writes:
>>>> >> It was an error. The question is, who told the story that the gas
>>>> >>came out of the showerheads?
>>>>
>>>> >First off, thank you for responding to Tom's arguments -- it means I'm
>>>having a
>>>> >a slightly easier time catching up on the mail I've fallen behind on because
>>>> >now I don't have to take time out to reiterate what has already been said.
>>>>
>>>> >Now, I do have a brief question for the NG to answer: What is the deal in
>>>> >"Schindler's List" where water streams down on the prisoners? If the
>>>> >showerheads were fake this obviously couldn't have happened. WAS there a
>>>> >gas chamber where the showers worked; or is Spielberg actually guilty of
>>>> >rewriting a bit of history here?
>>>>
>>>> According to accounts including one in "Auschwitz:The History in Photographs"
>>>> there were showers for the prisoners. Water showers that is.
>>>And where is this described, exactly? In what context? The only mentions
>>>I've found in _Auschwitz: a history in photographs_ are:
>> "And where is this described exactly?" Page 18, "Context"? -
>>"Changes of clothing and underwear were available only every few
>>months: in the filthy conditions of the camp, clothes were always
>>infested with lice. Periodic delousings not only gave no relief but
>>were an additional torture: in summer the showers were scalding, in
>>winter icy cold."
>> Strange thing about this change of clothes "only every few months" and
>>"the filthy conditions of the camp". All the photos in the very book
>>do not support this. What is very apparant is the cleanliness of it
>>all, including prisoners clothes. As in one sign in a barracks, said
>>to still exist today, it says (translation) "Cleanliness is health".
>>I take the referrence to showers to mean with water.
>>>"Auschwitz II-Birkenau. Interior of the building where new prisoners were
>>>registered. It was called the 'Sauna' becuase of the showers that were
>>>part of the registration process. Tatooing of prisoners with their numbers
>>>was also done here (Photo taken by the SS, 1944)," p.80 (caption to photo
>>>58).
>>>"Auschwitz II-Birkenau. Group of new women prisoners. On arrival
>>>prisoners' heads were shaved and they were sent to shower and be deloused
>>>and disinfected. Their personal details were then registered and they were
>>>given camp clothing and in most cases tatooed with their prison numbers.
>>>(Photo taken by the SS, 1944)," p.80 (caption to photo 59).
>>>"Auschwitz II-Birkenau. Construction of the shower block (the 'Sauna'),
>>>brought into use in December 1943. In the background are Gas Chamber and
>>>Crematorium IV (right) and Gas Chamber and Crematorium V (among the trees,
>>>top left). (Photo taken by the SS, 1943)," p.93 (caption to photo 77).
>> It doesn't say anything about "'sauna"'. It says construction, with
>>out further detail. The "'sauna"' is your's. Funny how all these
>>photos of "mass exrtermination" facilities were taken by the SS, who
>>are said to have tried to keep it all secret and destroyed evidence.
>**Hey moron, try page 183 of Auschwitz Chronicles 1939 - 1945, From
>the "Archives of the Auschwitz Memorial and the German Federal
>Archives." the specific picture does say, "Prisoners in the "Sauna"
>>>Notice that it is mentioned that the prisoners who were _registered_ where
>>>sent to the showers in the "Sauna" after their arrival and induction into
>>>the camp. (This doesn't mean that they _weren't_ killed at a later date,
>>>as many were when the blocks were "swept" and those selected were sent to
>>>the gas-chambers.) It was common for those slated for _immediate_
>>>extermination to _not_ be registered, but sent to the gas-chambers
>>>immeduiately on arrival. This was especially true during the "Hungarian
>>>operation" where the great majority were gassed on arrival without being
>>>registered.
>>>I also noticed that you forgot to mention that _Auschwitz: a history in
>>>photographs_ also described the _fake_ showerheads:
>> Actually I didn't read all the copy. I was looking for photographic
>>evidence. Did you say "discribed"?
>>>"Auschwitz II-Birkenau. After a selection. The column of people seen here
>>>are Jews being led away to the gas chambers, having been selected for
>>>immediate death. Their route takes them past the barrack used as the
>>>_Blockfu"hrerstube_ and on to the main road of the camp, which led
>>>directly to Gas Chambers and Crematoria II and III. To prevent panic among
>>>the victims, the SS told them that they were being taken to the
>>>showers--indeed the gas chambers were fitted out inside to resemble
>>>shower-rooms. (Photo taken by the SS, 1944)," p.145 (caption to photo
>>>154).
>> Actuall I don't seethis one in my list of photos I selected as being
>>anywhere relevant to the story of mass extermination. Before I do
>>check it out, are you saying the photo is one of the approach to the
>>"gas chambers" or a photo of the exterior, which would show that they
>>were made to look like showers buildings?
>>>"False showerheads like these were mounted in the ceilings of the gas
>>>chambers in Auschwitz II-Birkenau." p.153 (caption to photo 161).
>> So we can assume that "shower heads like these" are photos of real
>>shower heads and not photos of the simulated shower heads.
>>>"...After undressing, the Jews were sent into the gas chamber: it had
>>>shower installations and water pipes so that it would look just like a
>>>shower room, but in fact it was a gas chamber...." -Rudolph Ho"ss. p.154.
>> Ho'ss again? He seems to be the only one who saw all this? Is this the
>>same Ho'ss Holocaust books say was insane?
>>>Now why is that, Moran? Why _did_ you "forget" to mention this?
>> Why is what? Forget what? Ho'ss?
>>>> According to a map of Birkenau in Yehuda Bauer's "The History of
>>>> the Holocaust" a road goes from two kremas, between which the rail
>>>> line terminates, to the other side of the camp, a couple of hundred
>>>> yards, to two more kremas with the water shower facilities located
>>>> directly between.
>>>This would be the "Sauna" next to the "Canada" compound.
>> No. That, in Bauer's diagram is located in Auschwitz. The one Bauer
>>shows is marked "bath" between two "gas chamber and crematoria"
>>complexes, each complex having two buildings of identical design. He
>>shows thirty buildings between the complexes he identifies as
>>"storerooms of victims property". Do you know if the camp alloted
>>thirty buildings, shown as the same size as the rest of the barracks,
>>as storerooms?
>>>> (Considering the claims that the whole extermination process was set
>>>> up for secrecy, to keep it unknown to the inmates in the camps and
>>>> others...
>>>To keep it secret from the inmates? The camp guards? Hardly. The prisoners
>>>sent to the gas-chamber on arrival were marched right past the
>>>_Blockfu"hrerstube_ and down the main road of the camp for all to see.
>>>There were plenty of eyewitnesses to the mass-murders, like the
>>>_Sonderkommando_ and other prisoners, not to mention the guards and kapos.
>>>There were also stories and rumors describing the gassings circulating
>>>among the prisoners and local populace. As to keeping it secret from
>>>"others?" _Which_ "others" might this be? "Others" on the outside? "Other"
>>>countries?
>> Well I'm going to have to put this into my search program and type in
>>"secret" to see how it looks nextt to all those other accounts of how
>>it was all set up to keep it secret. So your saying that they would
>>march in ten to twenty five thousnad people a day, past anyone who
>>would be looking that way, and would see them go in but not come out
>>or show up to be registered in the camps? Eye witnesses. All you hear
>>out of you is "eye witnesses". But then there are those eye witnesses
>>who testify other wise.
>>>Though the Nazis were quite tight-lipped about what was going on at the
>>>extermination camps (The SS guards who worked at the camps were sworn to
>>>secrecy and to divulge information about the extermination camps was a
>>>crime), this, of course, didn't ensure that knowledge of what was taking
>>>place at the camps _was_ kept secret- it wasn't. Eventually reports of the
>>>mass-murder found its way out, and into the international press and to the
>>>Allied governemnts.
>*In this same book,"Auschwitz Chronicles 1939 - 1945, page 182, June
>18 "The Polish Government in Exile in London receives news of what is
>going on in Auschwitz. It is reported that 'in various places in the
>country, numerous reprots of the death of Auschwitz prisners are
>cropping up simultaneously. News then follows soon after of the
>shootings of several hundred prisoners because of alleged preparations
>for an uprising in the camp.' " So it would seem that things just
>weren't as secret as your revisionnazis thought so, course if you did
>really do some actual research, you might have know that.
I take note of the word "simultaneouely". My research has brought up
accounts of reports by the Polish underground passing on stories of
mass elctrocution, steaming and suffication. Your example above says
several hundred shot, not millions gassed.
I could even accept the report as true. In this case, if it wasn't
such a secret, then there should be some fairly detailed reports about
mass gassing of millions.
Was all the alleged process set up to maintain secrecy? It seems to
depend on what facilitates the arguments of the Holocaust
perpetuators.
>> I;'ve seen some of these accounts, they were electrocuted, steamed to
>>death, aphixiated. Everything but gassed.
>>>> ...there must have been a tunnel going from the inmate camp areas
>>>> to the water shower facilities, to keep them from noticing all these
>>>> people being herded from the rail area to the kremas on the other side
>>>> of the camp...
>>>Really? _Why_ must there have been such a tunnel? Because it fits with
>>>_your_ prejudices? Who says these people _weren't_ noticed? They _were_,
>>>after all, marched down the main camp road on their way to the
>>>gas-chambers. Who was not supposed to notice them and why?
>>>> ...thousands a day. Right?)
>>>Yep. Thousands a day, Moran. Especially from 1944 to 1945, when over
>>>400,000 Hungarian Jews were sent to die at Auschwitz over a period of
>>>several months.
>> This is the third time you say "especially" the Hungarians. The whole
>>thing is said to have been set up to keep anyone from knowing. The
>>revisionists don't say this, you peers do. Sticks and branches in the
>>fencing, done late at night, and other things I will statrt to make
>>note of to show all the inconsistanceies.
>>>> Where is the tunnel? Maybe it was a covered bridge.
>>>And maybe it is simply your fetid imagination grasping for straws. It's a
>>>denier thing. Quite common, if disgusting. But then nobody ever said you
>>>_weren't_ a digusting little worm, Moran.
>> You say it is my "fetid imagination" and end up calling me a
>>"disgusting little worm" which shows you are so emotional you can't
>>think straight. You want to believe it. The more Jews you could prove
>>were killed the happier you would be.
>> Let me tell you this right now, to keep selling this story in it's
>>present form is a 'hate crime'.
>>>Mark
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
>>>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>>>right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
>>>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan 21 08:38:54 PST 1996
Article: 20870 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Cyanide Question
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 15:11:57 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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hmazal@txdirect.net wrote:
>> dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas) writes:
>> You know, after so much time lobbying for civil speech, it almost pains me
>> to observe that you guys are sick, unamusing fucks. But I mean that in
>> the purely descriptive sense, not attributive. Flattery is not my goal.
>Such language from the arbitrer of urbanity is surprising. Why can't
>Mr. Hunt, who otherwise uses a reasonable vocabulary, refrain from
>the use of words that are offensive. Perhaps his children don't read
>alt.revisionism...
I would recommend anyone who wants to witness clear hypocrisy, read
Mazal's complaint above a few times, then go through the threads and
witness his stuff.
>Harry W. Mazal OBE
From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan 21 08:38:55 PST 1996
Article: 20872 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust Peer Boosting for Revisionism
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 15:32:23 GMT
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What with all the publicity about the Jewish oraganizations trying to
stamp out opposition by censorship, more eyes must be drawn to this
group, and here they come in and witness the curt little remarks by
the Holocaust perpetuating peers, and must think to themselves,'Wow,
is this the best they can do?'.
The more insults by the Holocaust insane, the better.
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK MartYalEidekeNizkor - etc.
From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan 21 08:38:56 PST 1996
Article: 20874 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ultimate Responsibility
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 15:52:11 GMT
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"Know ye not history and you are doomed to repeat it."
Know ye your history of malice and repeat it, and the malice
of consequences repeateth also.
No group in the world has such a repeated history in the world as the
Hebrews. They relish in recounting this history as if it is a high
point of achievement, without going through the recognized procedure
of objectively learning from history. It is always the other guy who
is at fault.
"The Jewish Book of Days"
is a small hard covered calender book starting off with Janurary and
ending in December and no particular year involved. Each page is
divided up into seven horizontal spaces, each one having a numerical
date corresponding to the month and in each space there is a notation
for something the Jews find significant, such as Janurary 1 notes
"Hank Greenberg, professional baseball player, born (1911)" or June 27
notes "The Yiddish newspaper Die Yidishe Velt began publication in New
York (1902)".
The Jewish history also cites among the attaining people and moments
of their history a substantial recollection of their effects on
others, the first appearing under the book date,
Jan. 8 Jews expelled from Genoa, Italy (1598), then
12 Jews expelled from Sicily(1493)
14 The Church burned confiscated Jewish books in Rome(1601)
31 Henry II forbade Jews in England to build new synagogues(1253)
Feb. 6 First auto-da-fe of the Spanish Inquisition(1481)
13 Jews of Speyer massacred(1195)
21 Jews expelled from German city Ratisbon(1519)
26 The Jews were expelled from all papal territory except Rome and
Ancona(1569)
28 First auto-da-fe in the New World(1574)
Mar. 9 Pope Innocent IV ordered that the Talmud be burned(1244)
18 More than eighty French Jews were burned at the stake in Bray(1191)
28 Turkish authorities expelled Jews from Jaffa and Tel Aviv(1917)
31 King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella signed the order expelling Jews
>from Spain(1492)
Apr. 2 Jews expelled from Sicily(1492)
5 The Polish army executed thirty five Jews for handing out Joint
Distribution Committee packages to the Jews of Pinsk(1919)
23 Jews prohibited from living in France
28 A progrom at Elizavetgrad was followed by a series of progroms
throughout the Ukraine and neighboring provinces(1881)
30 A royal proclaimation instructs Jews to leave Spain by the end of
July(1492)
May 7 Empress Catherine I ordered all Jews expelled from the
Ukraine(1727)
13 Nonnative Jews expelled from Bohemia(1763)
19 Iraqi Jews began to depart for Israel(1950)
31 Sigmund III of Poland tried to keep Jews out of Riga(1593)
June 15 Many Jews were killed during a riot in Safed(1834)
16 Jews expelled from Florence(1527)
19 Loius IX of France decreed all Jews must wear yellow badge(1269)
24 Russian Minister of the Interior instructed local authorities to
suppress Zionism among the Jews(1903)
July 11 Jews expelled from Little Russia(1739)
19 Thirty eight Jews burned in Brandenburg as a result of a
Host-declaration libel(1810)
22 Jews of France arrested at the order of King Philip(1306)
25 Emperor Leopold I expelled the Jews from Vienna(1670)
30 Citizens of Nuremburg forbidden to borrow from Jews(1539)
Aug 5 More than 300 Jews were killed in a massacre in
Barcelona(1391)
11 Marranos who escaped from Spain fall victim to auto-da-fe in
Lima(1635)
16 Laws regulating the condition of Jews of Saxony issued(1838)
18 Jews Oath abolished in Austria(1846)
19 Maximillian I orders the destruction of Jewish books(1509)
23 Jews throughout Palestine were attacked by Arab rioters(1929)
Sept 3 Many Jews were killed in a riot during coronation of
Richard the Lion Hearted(1189)
17 Jews expelled from France by King Charles(1394)
21 Swedish Government revoked privileges previously granted Swedish
Jews(1838)
24 King Louis XIV ordered Jews expelled from French possessions in
America(1683)
Oct 4 Jews deprived of rights by Vichy government in France(1940)
5 Ludwig IX expelled the Jews from Lower Bavaria(1450)
21 Emperor Joseph II of Austria abolished distinctive Jewish
dress(1781)
23 Jews in Barbados forbidden to engage in retail trade(1668)
30 Pope Innocent XI forbade Jews in Rome to engage in banking(1682)
31 Date by which Jews had to leave Portugal(1497)
Nov 2 Jews expelled from France and French domains(1394)
9 Kristallnact(1938)
14 Jews no longer permitted to attend German schools(1938)
23 Jews expelled from Naples(1510)
26 The Council of Clermont proclaimed the First Crusade, that led to
the massacre of many Jewish communities(1092)
Dec 4 Jews ordered to leave Portugal(1496)
16 Jews expelled from France(1394)
18 Jews expelled from Prague, Bohemia and Moravia(1774)
25 King Frederick III of Sicily required all Jews to wear badge(1369)
27 Jews were prohibited from practicing medicine in Romania(1868)
So here we have a recurrant theme spanning ten centuries and many
different areas. We might assume that this rejoicing record compiled
by the Jewish community is that which they were able to find but that
the full account, if records were available, might excede this by many
times.
Holocaust books give us a more up to date account about raging
resentments among a variety of countries in this century, especially
in their accounts of Einsatzgruppens, where we might get the idea that
people in Hungary, Romania, Ukraine, White Russia and else where, had
more to do with whatever really happened than the Germans.
We also have to recognize, aside from any moral judgements, that
whatever really happened during WW II is a continuation of the listed
history above.
Since these bewailings of dates of reactions are always devoid of
discussing any extenuating circumstances we are left to wonder about
the ultimate cause and effect of the reoccurance. Nevertheless, one
example of the above has found it's way into history books as to any
details. This is the Spanish expulsion of Jews in 1492.
The historical account of Jews in Spain starts off with them
finding their way into the land as tagalongs to the invading Moorish
army, thus making them complicit in the invasion. After a few
centuries the Moors were rightfully ejected from Spain, but the Jews
were allowed to stay, evidentally in consideration of their biblical
connection. Inspite of this initial forgiving accomodation a change of
heart occurred. Evidentally the Jews had saturated much of the trade,
including the agricultural chain, and eventually it got to the point
of intolerance and the Spanish reacted.
About three years ago Spain allowed itself to be badgered into giving
a formal apology for this history.
The one thing that is certain from the overall history of the Jews,
by their own accounting, aside from any discussion of cause and
effect, is that for some reason many generations in many nations
allowed the Jews to establish themselves but for some reason became
irratated to the point of severe reaction, which the Jews call
"persecution".
It is evident that great rage was directed towards the Jews, and we
must recognize that the Jews repeated history suggests that they are
the ultimate responsibility for whatever happened to them. They can
propagandize all they want about how brilliant they are, how
benevolent they are, but their own history does not support it.
The most repeated history in the history of the world.
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 22 10:41:42 PST 1996
Article: 20972 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where Are The Rest Of The Moran Clones?
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:15:22 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>Marty Kelley wrote:
>>On 17 Jan 1996, Michael P. Stein wrote:
>>> Considering how there are forty-nine times as many non-Jews as Jews in
>>> the U. S., I realize there are very few non-Jews here on alt.revisionism
>>> plugging away at denying the Holocaust. If there are ten Jews here
>>> defending it, then there ought to be 490 non-Jews tearing it down.
>>> (Everyone else: shhh!)
>>>
>>> Do you see 490 little Tommy clones here doing that? I don't. Could
>>> this mean that the people like you out here are of a superduperminority
>>> who disbelieve the story enough to deny it?
>>Perhaps it's a bit premature to announce results of the Statistically
>>Invalid Moran Poll (tm), but I would like to point out that I have so far
>>not received any e-mail espousing support of Mr. Moran.
> MIKE STEIN SAYS THE VAIDITY OF A POST IS DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL TO HOW
>MUCH SUPPORTING E-MAIL HE GETS.
>
Correction;
MARTY KELLEY SAYS THE VALIDITY OF A POST IS DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL TO
HOW MUCH SUPPORTING E-MAIL HE GETS.
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 22 10:41:42 PST 1996
Article: 20973 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Cyanide Question
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:17:28 GMT
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>In article <4dtojg$v94@zippy.cais.net>, tom moran wrote:
>Quoting Mr. Mazal:
>>>Such language from the arbitrer of urbanity is surprising. Why can't
>>>Mr. Hunt, who otherwise uses a reasonable vocabulary, refrain from
>>>the use of words that are offensive. Perhaps his children don't read
>>>alt.revisionism...
>>
>> I would recommend anyone who wants to witness clear hypocrisy, read
>>Mazal's complaint above a few times, then go through the threads and
>>witness his stuff.
>Perhaps Mr. Moran would be so kind as to give me a reference to a single
>article in which Mr. Mazal uses a vulgarity.
"Vulgarity"? Where does Mazal specify "vulgarity"?
>Regards,
>Rich Green
>--
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Richard J. Green
>Department of Chemistry
>Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud
>http://chem.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 23 10:57:56 PST 1996
Article: 21000 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: false response to Tom Moran
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 18:06:48 GMT
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <31028DC7.4498@niven.imsweb.net>,
>Bud wrote:
>>amazing, Tom: The response to your question is that you are stupid and
>>ignorant!
> What question is that? You did not quote the question, nor did you
>include a References: line in your article so one may know which article
>of Tom Moran's you are referring to.
>>Well, Tom, maybe you are, but that still DOES NOT make your
>>question invalid, does it?
> That is true. However, there are many questions which have patiently
>been answered for Mr. Moran before, for which he has ignored the answer,
>or failed to understand, or pretended not to understand. Now, if he has
>asked a question that has already been answered, then I would say that
>calling Tom Moran stupid and ignorant is a valid response to the
>_repetition_ of the question. Perhaps you'd like to clear this up by
>telling us which Moran question you are talking about. Perhaps you should
>also read a collection of Tom Moran's posts and see what you think of his
>intellect and his honesty.
Here Stein is asking for explicits and he refers to inexplicits. Yea,
yea, I know "explicits" is not a noun. Now that we got that out of the
way, go on and clarify.
> Posted/emailed.
>--
>Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 23 10:58:00 PST 1996
Article: 21017 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ANNE FRANK DIARY - HOW WAS IT FOUND?
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 00:47:08 GMT
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> Personally, I don't even question the diary as to it's authenticity or
>> not. It could be, it could not be. The diary has no relevence to the
>> overall Holocaust assertions of mass extermination.
>> Until this post I didn't even think about it, except that it was
>> something I thought the revisionists should not bother with, but now I
>> see that there is a super analogically significant ambiguity to it
>> that poetically and quite graphically expresses an example as to the
>> rest of the Holocaust accounts.
>"a super analogically significant ambiguity," eh? Wasn't that t song
>from _Mary Poppins_?
>But actually, Mr, Moran, I agree with you on this--the lies and
>distortions that Holocaust deniers have used in their treatment of Anne
>Frank's diary are indeed typical of the larger lies and distortions that
>Holocaust deniers have used when addressing the larger history of the
>Holocaust.
Well I see here you have done a lot of harrangue, but you didn't say
anything about the 4 different versions.
You mention "lies" about revisionist treatment of the Anne
Frank story, but all I see presented here are discriptions of various
accounts. Now if these descriptions are inaccurate, I don't know. If
they are this is certaintly the time and place to straighten it out.
I see you mention other "lies" and "distortions" in a sweeping
fashion, which is more like an announcement, so there is nothing for
me to go by as to that.
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 23 10:58:01 PST 1996
Article: 21022 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Peer Boosting for Revisionism
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:02:35 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Sun, 21 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>>
>> What with all the publicity about the Jewish oraganizations trying to
>> stamp out opposition by censorship, more eyes must be drawn to this
>> group, and here they come in and witness the curt little remarks by
>> the Holocaust perpetuating peers, and must think to themselves,'Wow,
>> is this the best they can do?'.
>> The more insults by the Holocaust insane, the better.
>Yes, Mr. Moran; I'm sure that people are impressed by your
>well-documented record of lies, half-truths, selective quotations, and
>contentless generalizations.
>Care to give us a source (title, publication date, etc.) for your false
>claim that _Schindler's List_ was withdrawn from U.S. distribution after
>two weeks?
When the movie was still in it's propsal stage, it strated to get
coverage in the N.Y., L.A. Times. AS it went into production it was
followed the whole time. Then it got the Academy Award sweep. Then
their were reports about how it was doing in Europe. Not too good. The
article blamed it on it being in black and white, it's three hour
length, poor weather.
There was only a couple of reports on it's popularity in the U.S. in
the first week or so. It was being shown at a number of theatres in
the area. Full page ads raged almost daily. With in two or three weeks
it was gone from the marqis'.
After that, it disappeared from the papers. No articles, no columns,
no letters to the editor - venidos.
Do I have documentation? No. Do I have the financial records to the
movie company? No. Do I have the attendance record? No. Do I know the
"box office" take? You gave that didn't you? Or maybe it was someone
else. That was 100,000,000 dollars, a figure which was taken off some
other group.
Do I have documentation? No. All I have is the above.
In all there were maybe 70 or 80 articles, ads, letters, columns, etc.
in the L.A. Times, up to the time it flopped. Since then - ninguno.
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 09:00:17 PST 1996
Article: 21166 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Peer Boosting for Revisionism
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:27:31 GMT
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Laura Finsten wrote:
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>in the L.A. Times, up to the time it flopped. Since then - ninguno.
>That should be "nada" (nothing), not "ninguno" (no one).
>What is the alleged box office failure of Schindler's List supposed to
>prove, anyway? I missed the beginning of this discussion, I guess.
oops.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 09:00:18 PST 1996
Article: 21169 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Cannibalism at Auschwitz
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:52:04 GMT
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>Archive/File: camps/auschwitz cannibal.01
>Last-modified: 1993/03/05
Tales From the Nizkor Crypt
>"One day in the spring of 1944 Bobby and I received a requisition for a
>large amount of bouillon, and we told Zabel we would need a great deal of
>meat. At the time many transports, mostly from Hungary, were arriving in
>nearby Birkenau. On our way to Raisko we could see the chimneys in Birkenau
>sending forth great plumes of smoke and flames, which drove home to us the
>precarious nature of our existence and the incomprehensible cruelty of the
>Nazis. When we got our meat it was obvious that it did not come from any
>cattle or horses but from very neatly cleaned human muscles. Bobby told me
>that this had happened before and that the S.S. made this substitution so
>they themselves could eat the animal meat, which was very scarce. Zabel
>told Bobby not to tell anybody about the substitution or both of us would
>end up in the gas chamber. The words to describe my revulsion to this
>gruesome discovery fail me completely. We debated what to do; the quantity
>recieved was far more than we had asked for. Of necessity, we made the best
>of this impossible and very dangerous situation. Nobody discovered that
>there was anything unusual happening. Afterward we managed to bury the
>remains in secret in an out-of-the-way place, mumbling a prayer for the
>dead, a token funeral. This dreadful scene was to be repeated a few more
>times. <*> On one of these occasions a fellow worker, more curious and
>hungrier than most, came into our lab, saw the meat and, exclaiming `I love
>steak tartare,' took a small piece and ate it. He never found out what he
>had eaten. We did not tell anybody, not even Nora, until quite some time
>later. It was a truly horrible secret."
>* Mueller writes about how earlier in 1943 Weber and another S.S. man,
>Kitt, had come to the crematorium to examine the thighs and calves of men
>and women who were still alive and select the best ones, before the victims
>were gassed. After the execution they would cut off those pre-selected
>muscles. Chambers", New York, Stein and Day, 1979.>" (Micheels, 111)
> Work Cited
>Micheels, Louis J., M.D. "Doctor 117641 - A Holocaust Memoir", Yale
>University Press, New Haven & London, 1989.
>--
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
> Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
> Kenneth McVay OBC. Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/
Fantastic post. For the revisionist side that is.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 09:00:19 PST 1996
Article: 21170 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "BUD" - this one's for you
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:19:52 GMT
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:
>I am pleased to note that you seem to have resolved your previous
>forgivable slips of the post, so to speak. And while it may seem to
>you that the questions you now posit are indicative of a genuinely
>enquiring mind, to those of us who have been here for a while, your
>questions are simply recycled formulations of those we have seen many
>times before.
>In the interest of conserving bandwidth - for I'm sure that a
>gentleman such as yourself would not dream of wasting such a
>marvellous resource - may I suggest that you point your browser to:
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/qar/
>An excerpt from this page reads as follows:
> Readers of the Usenet newsgroup alt.revisionism will notice claims
> and arguments below which may seem familiar. This is
> because this material, and its derivatives, have been presented and
> discussed on Usenet many times before. These web pages contain more
> in-depth replies than previous postings, however, and the links to
> other information put the technology of the web to good use.
>Posted/e-mailed
>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/myssiwyg.html
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
Okay, now see what you have done Bud, you have Hilary on your case.
Don't worry, Bud, its not like having a swarm of killer bees all over
you, it's more like one little flea.
You know, you don't have to respond. Hilary is co-webmaster of Nizkor,
and her code of response is posted out here under "Nizkor Code of
Responding". She just gave you an example.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 09:00:37 PST 1996
Article: 21256 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Err is Moran (Was: Tom Moran Recognizes his Errs!)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:35:06 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <4e4gc6$8i7@zippy.cais.net>
References: <4di0jd$ope@zippy.cais.net> <4e1s6e$k5o@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.101.8.68
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: "Schindler's List" was a bomb. Only two weeks and 50,000 people after
>: opening in Europe - venidos. After only two weeks on the circuit in
>: the U.S. - venidos. You say it grossed over 100,000,000 dollars? You
>: mean they were in for the money? Anyway, how would we check it out for
>: truth. You say you got this info off a group?
>I happened to see a copy of the 1996 "World Almanac and Book of Facts"
>and they had a list of "Top Movies of 1994." According to that list,
>"Schindler's List" grossed $91.1 million dollars in 1994, and there
>was a footnote indicating that it had been released in 1993, but the
>receipts from 1993 were not included in the total.
>So now we have an official confirmation of another lie from Moran.
>Unless, of course, the "World Almanac" is part of the JOOSH Conspiracy.
>
"Official"? The "official" information comes from where? Face up to
it. It bombed. Splat. In N. Dakota, Oklahoma, the moon. Two weeks and
it was gone. Fifty articles in the L.A. Times, to a certain date, then
none. I don't know about whats on TV since I rarely watch it, but as
the newspapers, only a whisper here and there.
-----
>Richard Schultz schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
>"A fool always finds a greater fool to admire him." -- Nicolas Boileau
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 09:00:38 PST 1996
Article: 21257 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ANNE FRANK DIARY - HOW WAS IT FOUND?
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:37:38 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, Jeff wrote:
>> The Franks had been arrested and had been taken away.......
>>
>> What happened next? Who found the diary?
>>
>> 1) "The franks and their friends were being taken away. MIEP remained frozen
>> in her chair, too shocked, too stunned to move. Then she heard the sound of
>> familar voices. ELLI and HENK were returning. Saying little to one another,
>> the THREE left the office and moved down the hallway and on up the stairs to
>> the hiding place. Moving from room to room they saw overturned furniture,
>> books scattered, and drawers ransacked."
>> [Page 23. A place to Hide. True Sories of Holocaust Rescues. Jayne Pettit.
>> USA 1993.
>>
>> 2) "At the end of the afternoon, the two [MIEP and BEP] went upstairs
>> together with JAN GIES and VAN MAAREN, the warehouseman, and entered the
>> secret annex. It was in chaos. the pages of Annes diary lay scattered on
>> the floor and were gathered up along with other papers and books and taken
>> downstairs."
>> [Anne Frank: Beyond the Diary: A photographic Rememberance. Puffin books
>> 1995]
>>
>> 3) "The secret annexe was plundered during the police raid. A few days
>> later, in a pile of old newspapers left lying on the floor, an OFFICE
>> CLEANER found the notebooks containing Annes diary. Not knowing what they
>> were, he handed them to Miep and Elli."
>> [Page 227 Anne Frank Diary. Published by Guild publishing by arrangement
>> with Valentine, Mitchell and Co Ltd 1980]
>>
>> 4) "Henk said right away to van Matto, As soon as your assistants are away
>> lock the door and come back to us. When van Matto returned, Henk said to
>> Elli, van Matto and me [Miep Gies], Now weill go upstairs and see what the
>> situation is.
>> [Page 157. Anne Frank Remembered by Miep Gies 1987.]
>>
>>
>> Anybody got an answer to this one yet?
>Several of the "contradictions" that you seem to see are cleared up by
>the simple fact that, in revising her own diary for hoped-for postwar
>publication, Anne Frank herself changed some names of the people who
>lived and worked at 263, Prinsengracht. While Miep Gies agreed to have
>her real name in the published version, Jan Gies became "Henk" and Bep
>Voskuijl became "Elli," or "Elly." (_Critical Edition_ pp. 61-62)
>Similarly, the "Office Cleaner" of #3 and "Van Matto" of #4 both
>clearly refer to W.G. Van Maaren, the warehouseman at the spice
>company that the Franks lived above.
>All four of the statements extracted above are consistent with the order
>of events listed in _The Diary of Anne Frank: The Critical Edition_,
>Edited by David Barnouw and Gerrold Van Der Stroom. New York: Doubleday,
>1989. This edition reflects the intensive investigation of the diaries
>undertaken by the Netherlands State Institute for War Documentation.
>According to the _Critical Edition_, after the Jews hiding in the Secret
>Annexe had been taken away,
>"Miep Gies was left alone in the office while the two warehousemen were
>below. Wisely, Bep Voskuijl ["Elly"] stayed away for the first few hours.
>She and Jan Gies ["Henk"] came back at about five o'clock. With Miep and
>Van Maaren they went up to the Annexe. According to Miep:
> "They'd gone through all the cupboards. On the floor lay books,
> papers and whatever else was of no importance to the `Green police.'
> At one point we found some loose pieces of paper, an old account book
> and the exercise books which we had given to Anne when the checked
> diary was running out of space for her notes. We took
> the diary, the account book, the exercise books and all the loose
> pages away with us. But we didn't dare stay up there too long because
> we were afraid that the `Green Police' might come back"
>Miep locked the diaries and the loose sheets away in her office desk.
> One or more weeks later the Annexe was cleared by the removal firm
>of Abraham Puls on German instructions. On that occasion Miep told Van
>Maaren to go and collect any pieces of paper covered with writing that
>might come to light during this operation and give them to her. This he
>did, and she locked away those sheets, too, in her desk (page 62).
>This account covers pretty much the same points as the published accounts
>Mr. Roberts posts. I note that 1) omits Van Maaren's participation in
>the first search of the Annexe; this does not seem a significant
>omission. 2) is virtually identical to the account in the _Critical
>Edition_, and 3) seems an accurate recap of the second search of the Annexe,
>although the section cited by Mr. Roberts fails to mention the first search
>of the Annexe. Again, # 4 is consistent with the _Critical Edition_'s
>narrative of events.
>>>>Posted and E-mailed to Mr. Roberts and to Tom Moran.
>Followups to alt.revisionism, please. E-mailed
>replies to this message will be posted to Usenet unless otherwise
>requested by sender<<<
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
I read your Part I and Part II. Then I went back and read the initial
post, then I went back and read your parts again. I can see where
your other source offers up the name changes made by the author of the
diary. This certaintly makes it all more complicated to figure out.
I find it interesting that Anne Frank is said to have revised the
diary for the hopes of post war publication.
Your reply explains some of it, and I recognize the lack of exactitude
in historical recounting that should not be expected. In the event
your explaination is at least partly correct I am going to subtract
the "super" off my initial idea on it being "super analogically
significant", and specify "significant" to relate to the over all
confusion in Holocaust accounts, in lieu of it implying fabrications.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 09:00:39 PST 1996
Article: 21258 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NY Times letter
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:44:00 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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References:
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ncrccjc@ibm.net wrote:
>From ncrccjc:
>For those of you that may have missed it the following letter to the editor
>appeared in the Sunday New York Times (Jan. 14, 1996).
>To the Editor:
>You write (news article Jan. 10) that the Institute for Historical Review
>"publishes revisionist histories." Historical revisionism is a legitimate
>academic pusuit.
>The "institutes" work, which has nothing to do with scholarship, is Holocaust
>denial, anti-Semitism's cutting edge. Bernie M. Farber
> Dir., Community Relations
> Canadian Jewish Congress
> Willowdale, Ontario, Jan. 11, 1996
Jews get ready access to the "letters to the editor" department in the
N.Y. Times, getting no less than one a week into it, sometimes as many
as 4 or 5.
Next time you see a 'unsigned editorial' about the Palestinians or
Mideast, or Israel's enemy, read real close and you will see the
writing between the lines.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 09:01:00 PST 1996
Article: 21358 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ultimate Responsibility
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 15:00:38 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <4e89ce$ukl@zippy.cais.net>
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cendbj@bonaly.hw.ac.uk (David Johnston) wrote:
>In article <4dtquv$vnu@zippy.cais.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>> It is evident that great rage was directed towards the Jews, and we
>>must recognize that the Jews repeated history suggests that they are
>>the ultimate responsibility for whatever happened to them. They can
>>propagandize all they want about how brilliant they are, how
>>benevolent they are, but their own history does not support it.
>> The most repeated history in the history of the world.
>>
>This is the one I always love. To summarise;
>1. Jews have been persecuted for years
>2. Therefore, there must be something about them that means they invite
>persecution.
>3. This means it's all their fault.
>4. Despite this, the Holocaust never happened.
>5. But if it did, they deserved it.
I think it specifies above "what ever really happened". What
revisionist ever trys to assert that the Jews weren't singled out for
whatever really happened?
Whatever really happened is what revisionism is all about.
You should consider the post above to be one of accounting through the
procedure of documented list, one of effect, with analysis of cause.
Or are you saying history is not subject to analysis, or at least
Jewish history. Is Jewish history the only history in the world that
is not subject to review?
Why don't you come back and give a recap on this repeated history.
>Orwell lives! Doublethink is alive and well in 1996.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David Johnston | d.b.johnston@hw.ac.uk
>Heriot-Watt University |
>Edinburgh |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 12:43:33 PST 1996
Article: 21166 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Peer Boosting for Revisionism
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:27:31 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4e4ftv$8fa@zippy.cais.net>
References: <4dtppp$vgn@zippy.cais.net> <4e0ftv$fv7@zippy.cais.net> <4e327f$abp@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Laura Finsten wrote:
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>in the L.A. Times, up to the time it flopped. Since then - ninguno.
>That should be "nada" (nothing), not "ninguno" (no one).
>What is the alleged box office failure of Schindler's List supposed to
>prove, anyway? I missed the beginning of this discussion, I guess.
oops.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 12:43:34 PST 1996
Article: 21169 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Cannibalism at Auschwitz
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:52:04 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>Archive/File: camps/auschwitz cannibal.01
>Last-modified: 1993/03/05
Tales From the Nizkor Crypt
>"One day in the spring of 1944 Bobby and I received a requisition for a
>large amount of bouillon, and we told Zabel we would need a great deal of
>meat. At the time many transports, mostly from Hungary, were arriving in
>nearby Birkenau. On our way to Raisko we could see the chimneys in Birkenau
>sending forth great plumes of smoke and flames, which drove home to us the
>precarious nature of our existence and the incomprehensible cruelty of the
>Nazis. When we got our meat it was obvious that it did not come from any
>cattle or horses but from very neatly cleaned human muscles. Bobby told me
>that this had happened before and that the S.S. made this substitution so
>they themselves could eat the animal meat, which was very scarce. Zabel
>told Bobby not to tell anybody about the substitution or both of us would
>end up in the gas chamber. The words to describe my revulsion to this
>gruesome discovery fail me completely. We debated what to do; the quantity
>recieved was far more than we had asked for. Of necessity, we made the best
>of this impossible and very dangerous situation. Nobody discovered that
>there was anything unusual happening. Afterward we managed to bury the
>remains in secret in an out-of-the-way place, mumbling a prayer for the
>dead, a token funeral. This dreadful scene was to be repeated a few more
>times. <*> On one of these occasions a fellow worker, more curious and
>hungrier than most, came into our lab, saw the meat and, exclaiming `I love
>steak tartare,' took a small piece and ate it. He never found out what he
>had eaten. We did not tell anybody, not even Nora, until quite some time
>later. It was a truly horrible secret."
>* Mueller writes about how earlier in 1943 Weber and another S.S. man,
>Kitt, had come to the crematorium to examine the thighs and calves of men
>and women who were still alive and select the best ones, before the victims
>were gassed. After the execution they would cut off those pre-selected
>muscles. Chambers", New York, Stein and Day, 1979.>" (Micheels, 111)
> Work Cited
>Micheels, Louis J., M.D. "Doctor 117641 - A Holocaust Memoir", Yale
>University Press, New Haven & London, 1989.
>--
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
> Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
> Kenneth McVay OBC. Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/
Fantastic post. For the revisionist side that is.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 12:43:35 PST 1996
Article: 21170 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "BUD" - this one's for you
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:19:52 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 41
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References: <4e16vt$h2j@atlas.uniserve.com>
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:
>I am pleased to note that you seem to have resolved your previous
>forgivable slips of the post, so to speak. And while it may seem to
>you that the questions you now posit are indicative of a genuinely
>enquiring mind, to those of us who have been here for a while, your
>questions are simply recycled formulations of those we have seen many
>times before.
>In the interest of conserving bandwidth - for I'm sure that a
>gentleman such as yourself would not dream of wasting such a
>marvellous resource - may I suggest that you point your browser to:
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/qar/
>An excerpt from this page reads as follows:
> Readers of the Usenet newsgroup alt.revisionism will notice claims
> and arguments below which may seem familiar. This is
> because this material, and its derivatives, have been presented and
> discussed on Usenet many times before. These web pages contain more
> in-depth replies than previous postings, however, and the links to
> other information put the technology of the web to good use.
>Posted/e-mailed
>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/myssiwyg.html
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
Okay, now see what you have done Bud, you have Hilary on your case.
Don't worry, Bud, its not like having a swarm of killer bees all over
you, it's more like one little flea.
You know, you don't have to respond. Hilary is co-webmaster of Nizkor,
and her code of response is posted out here under "Nizkor Code of
Responding". She just gave you an example.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 12:43:53 PST 1996
Article: 21256 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Err is Moran (Was: Tom Moran Recognizes his Errs!)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:35:06 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <4e4gc6$8i7@zippy.cais.net>
References: <4di0jd$ope@zippy.cais.net> <4e1s6e$k5o@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: "Schindler's List" was a bomb. Only two weeks and 50,000 people after
>: opening in Europe - venidos. After only two weeks on the circuit in
>: the U.S. - venidos. You say it grossed over 100,000,000 dollars? You
>: mean they were in for the money? Anyway, how would we check it out for
>: truth. You say you got this info off a group?
>I happened to see a copy of the 1996 "World Almanac and Book of Facts"
>and they had a list of "Top Movies of 1994." According to that list,
>"Schindler's List" grossed $91.1 million dollars in 1994, and there
>was a footnote indicating that it had been released in 1993, but the
>receipts from 1993 were not included in the total.
>So now we have an official confirmation of another lie from Moran.
>Unless, of course, the "World Almanac" is part of the JOOSH Conspiracy.
>
"Official"? The "official" information comes from where? Face up to
it. It bombed. Splat. In N. Dakota, Oklahoma, the moon. Two weeks and
it was gone. Fifty articles in the L.A. Times, to a certain date, then
none. I don't know about whats on TV since I rarely watch it, but as
the newspapers, only a whisper here and there.
-----
>Richard Schultz schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
>"A fool always finds a greater fool to admire him." -- Nicolas Boileau
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 12:43:54 PST 1996
Article: 21257 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ANNE FRANK DIARY - HOW WAS IT FOUND?
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:37:38 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Lines: 117
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References:
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, Jeff wrote:
>> The Franks had been arrested and had been taken away.......
>>
>> What happened next? Who found the diary?
>>
>> 1) "The franks and their friends were being taken away. MIEP remained frozen
>> in her chair, too shocked, too stunned to move. Then she heard the sound of
>> familar voices. ELLI and HENK were returning. Saying little to one another,
>> the THREE left the office and moved down the hallway and on up the stairs to
>> the hiding place. Moving from room to room they saw overturned furniture,
>> books scattered, and drawers ransacked."
>> [Page 23. A place to Hide. True Sories of Holocaust Rescues. Jayne Pettit.
>> USA 1993.
>>
>> 2) "At the end of the afternoon, the two [MIEP and BEP] went upstairs
>> together with JAN GIES and VAN MAAREN, the warehouseman, and entered the
>> secret annex. It was in chaos. the pages of Annes diary lay scattered on
>> the floor and were gathered up along with other papers and books and taken
>> downstairs."
>> [Anne Frank: Beyond the Diary: A photographic Rememberance. Puffin books
>> 1995]
>>
>> 3) "The secret annexe was plundered during the police raid. A few days
>> later, in a pile of old newspapers left lying on the floor, an OFFICE
>> CLEANER found the notebooks containing Annes diary. Not knowing what they
>> were, he handed them to Miep and Elli."
>> [Page 227 Anne Frank Diary. Published by Guild publishing by arrangement
>> with Valentine, Mitchell and Co Ltd 1980]
>>
>> 4) "Henk said right away to van Matto, As soon as your assistants are away
>> lock the door and come back to us. When van Matto returned, Henk said to
>> Elli, van Matto and me [Miep Gies], Now weill go upstairs and see what the
>> situation is.
>> [Page 157. Anne Frank Remembered by Miep Gies 1987.]
>>
>>
>> Anybody got an answer to this one yet?
>Several of the "contradictions" that you seem to see are cleared up by
>the simple fact that, in revising her own diary for hoped-for postwar
>publication, Anne Frank herself changed some names of the people who
>lived and worked at 263, Prinsengracht. While Miep Gies agreed to have
>her real name in the published version, Jan Gies became "Henk" and Bep
>Voskuijl became "Elli," or "Elly." (_Critical Edition_ pp. 61-62)
>Similarly, the "Office Cleaner" of #3 and "Van Matto" of #4 both
>clearly refer to W.G. Van Maaren, the warehouseman at the spice
>company that the Franks lived above.
>All four of the statements extracted above are consistent with the order
>of events listed in _The Diary of Anne Frank: The Critical Edition_,
>Edited by David Barnouw and Gerrold Van Der Stroom. New York: Doubleday,
>1989. This edition reflects the intensive investigation of the diaries
>undertaken by the Netherlands State Institute for War Documentation.
>According to the _Critical Edition_, after the Jews hiding in the Secret
>Annexe had been taken away,
>"Miep Gies was left alone in the office while the two warehousemen were
>below. Wisely, Bep Voskuijl ["Elly"] stayed away for the first few hours.
>She and Jan Gies ["Henk"] came back at about five o'clock. With Miep and
>Van Maaren they went up to the Annexe. According to Miep:
> "They'd gone through all the cupboards. On the floor lay books,
> papers and whatever else was of no importance to the `Green police.'
> At one point we found some loose pieces of paper, an old account book
> and the exercise books which we had given to Anne when the checked
> diary was running out of space for her notes. We took
> the diary, the account book, the exercise books and all the loose
> pages away with us. But we didn't dare stay up there too long because
> we were afraid that the `Green Police' might come back"
>Miep locked the diaries and the loose sheets away in her office desk.
> One or more weeks later the Annexe was cleared by the removal firm
>of Abraham Puls on German instructions. On that occasion Miep told Van
>Maaren to go and collect any pieces of paper covered with writing that
>might come to light during this operation and give them to her. This he
>did, and she locked away those sheets, too, in her desk (page 62).
>This account covers pretty much the same points as the published accounts
>Mr. Roberts posts. I note that 1) omits Van Maaren's participation in
>the first search of the Annexe; this does not seem a significant
>omission. 2) is virtually identical to the account in the _Critical
>Edition_, and 3) seems an accurate recap of the second search of the Annexe,
>although the section cited by Mr. Roberts fails to mention the first search
>of the Annexe. Again, # 4 is consistent with the _Critical Edition_'s
>narrative of events.
>>>>Posted and E-mailed to Mr. Roberts and to Tom Moran.
>Followups to alt.revisionism, please. E-mailed
>replies to this message will be posted to Usenet unless otherwise
>requested by sender<<<
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
I read your Part I and Part II. Then I went back and read the initial
post, then I went back and read your parts again. I can see where
your other source offers up the name changes made by the author of the
diary. This certaintly makes it all more complicated to figure out.
I find it interesting that Anne Frank is said to have revised the
diary for the hopes of post war publication.
Your reply explains some of it, and I recognize the lack of exactitude
in historical recounting that should not be expected. In the event
your explaination is at least partly correct I am going to subtract
the "super" off my initial idea on it being "super analogically
significant", and specify "significant" to relate to the over all
confusion in Holocaust accounts, in lieu of it implying fabrications.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 12:43:55 PST 1996
Article: 21258 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NY Times letter
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:44:00 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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ncrccjc@ibm.net wrote:
>From ncrccjc:
>For those of you that may have missed it the following letter to the editor
>appeared in the Sunday New York Times (Jan. 14, 1996).
>To the Editor:
>You write (news article Jan. 10) that the Institute for Historical Review
>"publishes revisionist histories." Historical revisionism is a legitimate
>academic pusuit.
>The "institutes" work, which has nothing to do with scholarship, is Holocaust
>denial, anti-Semitism's cutting edge. Bernie M. Farber
> Dir., Community Relations
> Canadian Jewish Congress
> Willowdale, Ontario, Jan. 11, 1996
Jews get ready access to the "letters to the editor" department in the
N.Y. Times, getting no less than one a week into it, sometimes as many
as 4 or 5.
Next time you see a 'unsigned editorial' about the Palestinians or
Mideast, or Israel's enemy, read real close and you will see the
writing between the lines.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 12:44:16 PST 1996
Article: 21358 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ultimate Responsibility
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 15:00:38 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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cendbj@bonaly.hw.ac.uk (David Johnston) wrote:
>In article <4dtquv$vnu@zippy.cais.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>> It is evident that great rage was directed towards the Jews, and we
>>must recognize that the Jews repeated history suggests that they are
>>the ultimate responsibility for whatever happened to them. They can
>>propagandize all they want about how brilliant they are, how
>>benevolent they are, but their own history does not support it.
>> The most repeated history in the history of the world.
>>
>This is the one I always love. To summarise;
>1. Jews have been persecuted for years
>2. Therefore, there must be something about them that means they invite
>persecution.
>3. This means it's all their fault.
>4. Despite this, the Holocaust never happened.
>5. But if it did, they deserved it.
I think it specifies above "what ever really happened". What
revisionist ever trys to assert that the Jews weren't singled out for
whatever really happened?
Whatever really happened is what revisionism is all about.
You should consider the post above to be one of accounting through the
procedure of documented list, one of effect, with analysis of cause.
Or are you saying history is not subject to analysis, or at least
Jewish history. Is Jewish history the only history in the world that
is not subject to review?
Why don't you come back and give a recap on this repeated history.
>Orwell lives! Doublethink is alive and well in 1996.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David Johnston | d.b.johnston@hw.ac.uk
>Heriot-Watt University |
>Edinburgh |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 12:44:18 PST 1996
Article: 21363 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NY Times letter
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 15:35:33 GMT
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anakin@pinc.com (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:
>In article <4e4gsr$8lm@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>> Jews get ready access to the "letters to the editor" department in the
>> N.Y. Times, getting no less than one a week into it, sometimes as many
>> as 4 or 5.
>> Next time you see a 'unsigned editorial' about the Palestinians or
>> Mideast, or Israel's enemy, read real close and you will see the
>> writing between the lines.
>The only thing anybody sees is that you are an idiot and a hatemonger.
>Jews get published no more than anybody else who writes letters to the
>editor and I defy you to show otherwise.
Just today, Jan. 24, 96, letter to the editor, with the heading
"Jewish Newsletter", N.Y. Times:
"To the editor:
You state (Week in Review, Jan. 21) that the "American Jewish Congress
has replaced its 'Boycott Report' on Arab economic boycott of Israel
with a newsletter title 'Radical Islamic Fundementalism Update.'"
Our focus may have changed, but in our publication and all our
comments we insist upon the distinction between radical fundementalism
and traditional Islam as practiced by most Muslims, who abhor
terrorism. This does not mean that we disreagard danger. We who lived
through the World Trade Center bombing ought not minimize the threat
of Islamic terrorism, unified or not."
Will Maslow
Phil Baum
"The writers are, respectively, editor of Radical Fundementalism
Update and executive director, American Jewish Congress."
I've have seen hundreds of letters like this over the last 10 years.
Not to mention hundreds of articles and columns, all with the same
theme, to convince America that Israel's enemy is our enemy.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 12:44:19 PST 1996
Article: 21364 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NY Times letter
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 15:40:36 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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anakin@pinc.com (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:
>In article <4e4gsr$8lm@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>> Jews get ready access to the "letters to the editor" department in the
>> N.Y. Times, getting no less than one a week into it, sometimes as many
>> as 4 or 5.
>> Next time you see a 'unsigned editorial' about the Palestinians or
>> Mideast, or Israel's enemy, read real close and you will see the
>> writing between the lines.
>The only thing anybody sees is that you are an idiot and a hatemonger.
>Jews get published no more than anybody else who writes letters to the
>editor and I defy you to show otherwise.
Just today, Jan. 24, 96, letter to the editor, with the heading
"Jewish Newsletter", N.Y. Times:
Here, try it this way.
"To the editor:
You state (Week in Review, Jan. 21) that the "American Islamic
Congress has replaced its 'Boycott Report' on American economic
boycott of Israel's enemies with a newsletter title 'Radical Jewish
Fundementalism Update.'"
Our focus may have changed, but in our publication and all our
comments we insist upon the distinction between radical fundementalism
and traditional Judaism as practiced by most Jews, who abhor
terrorism. This does not mean that we disreagard danger. We who lived
through the Intifada ought not minimize the threat of Jewish
terrorism, unified or not."
"The writers are, respectively, editor of Radical Fundementalism
Update and executive director, Islamic Anti-defamation league."
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 12:44:20 PST 1996
Article: 21366 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: false response to Tom Moran
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:16:22 GMT
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>In article <31028DC7.4498@niven.imsweb.net>,
>Bud wrote:
>>amazing, Tom: The response to your question is that you are stupid and
>>ignorant!
> What question is that? You did not quote the question, nor did you
>include a References: line in your article so one may know which article
>of Tom Moran's you are referring to.
>>Well, Tom, maybe you are, but that still DOES NOT make your
>>question invalid, does it?
> That is true. However, there are many questions which have patiently
>been answered for Mr. Moran before, for which he has ignored the answer,
>or failed to understand, or pretended not to understand. Now, if he has
>asked a question that has already been answered, then I would say that
>calling Tom Moran stupid and ignorant is a valid response to the
>_repetition_ of the question. Perhaps you'd like to clear this up by
>telling us which Moran question you are talking about. Perhaps you should
>also read a collection of Tom Moran's posts and see what you think of his
>intellect and his honesty.
Now this last sentence is the best thing I've seen Stein post yet.
> Posted/emailed.
>--
>Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 12:44:21 PST 1996
Article: 21367 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NOT SAY ANYTHING TO THE VISITORS [at Auschwitz I]
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 15:58:29 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Jeff wrote:
I guess we can expect this Pressac to be denounced as a 'double crypto
revisionist agent'?
From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan 25 12:44:23 PST 1996
Article: 21373 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Propaganda
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:12:48 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Bud wrote:
>Fro "Propaganda Techniques: Word Games Name Calling on
>HTTP://carmen.artsci.washington.edu/propaganda/name/htm
> "Bad names have played a tremendously powerful role in the
>history of the world and in our own individual development. They have
>ruined reputations, stirred men and women to oustanding accomplishments,
>sent other to prison cells, and made men mad enough to enter battle and
>slaughter their fellowmen. They have been and are applied to other
>people, groups, tribes colleges, political parties, neighborhoods,
>states, sections of the country, nations, and races." (Institute for
>Propaganda Analysis, 1938)
> The name-calling technique links a person, or idea, to a negative
>symbol. The propagandist who uses this technique hopes that the audience
>will reject the person or the idea on the basis of the negative symbol,
>instead of looking at the evidence.
> The most obvious type of name calling involves "bad names." For
>example, consider the following:
> Commie
> Facist
> Pig
> Yuppie Scum
> Bum
> Queer
> Feminazi
anti-Semitic
anti-Jewish
racist
nazi
denier
> A more subtle form of name-calling involves words or phrases that
>are selected because they possess a negative emotional charge. Those who
>oppose budget cuts may characterize fiscally consertive politicians as
>"stingy." Supporters might prefer to describe them as "thrifty." Both
>words refer to the same behavior.
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 26 15:22:54 PST 1996
Article: 21391 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ANNE FRANK DIARY - HOW WAS IT FOUND?
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 15:08:10 GMT
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, Jeff wrote:
>> The Franks had been arrested and had been taken away.......
>>
>> What happened next? Who found the diary?
>>
>> 1) "The franks and their friends were being taken away. MIEP remained frozen
>> in her chair, too shocked, too stunned to move. Then she heard the sound of
>> familar voices. ELLI and HENK were returning. Saying little to one another,
>> the THREE left the office and moved down the hallway and on up the stairs to
>> the hiding place. Moving from room to room they saw overturned furniture,
>> books scattered, and drawers ransacked."
>> [Page 23. A place to Hide. True Sories of Holocaust Rescues. Jayne Pettit.
>> USA 1993.
>>
>> 2) "At the end of the afternoon, the two [MIEP and BEP] went upstairs
>> together with JAN GIES and VAN MAAREN, the warehouseman, and entered the
>> secret annex. It was in chaos. the pages of Annes diary lay scattered on
>> the floor and were gathered up along with other papers and books and taken
>> downstairs."
>> [Anne Frank: Beyond the Diary: A photographic Rememberance. Puffin books
>> 1995]
>>
>> 3) "The secret annexe was plundered during the police raid. A few days
>> later, in a pile of old newspapers left lying on the floor, an OFFICE
>> CLEANER found the notebooks containing Annes diary. Not knowing what they
>> were, he handed them to Miep and Elli."
>> [Page 227 Anne Frank Diary. Published by Guild publishing by arrangement
>> with Valentine, Mitchell and Co Ltd 1980]
>>
>> 4) "Henk said right away to van Matto, As soon as your assistants are away
>> lock the door and come back to us. When van Matto returned, Henk said to
>> Elli, van Matto and me [Miep Gies], Now weill go upstairs and see what the
>> situation is.
>> [Page 157. Anne Frank Remembered by Miep Gies 1987.]
>>
>>
>> Anybody got an answer to this one yet?
>Several of the "contradictions" that you seem to see are cleared up by
>the simple fact that, in revising her own diary for hoped-for postwar
>publication, Anne Frank herself changed some names of the people who
>lived and worked at 263, Prinsengracht. While Miep Gies agreed to have
>her real name in the published version, Jan Gies became "Henk" and Bep
>Voskuijl became "Elli," or "Elly." (_Critical Edition_ pp. 61-62)
>Similarly, the "Office Cleaner" of #3 and "Van Matto" of #4 both
>clearly refer to W.G. Van Maaren, the warehouseman at the spice
>company that the Franks lived above.
>All four of the statements extracted above are consistent with the order
>of events listed in _The Diary of Anne Frank: The Critical Edition_,
>Edited by David Barnouw and Gerrold Van Der Stroom. New York: Doubleday,
>1989. This edition reflects the intensive investigation of the diaries
>undertaken by the Netherlands State Institute for War Documentation.
>According to the _Critical Edition_, after the Jews hiding in the Secret
>Annexe had been taken away,
>"Miep Gies was left alone in the office while the two warehousemen were
>below. Wisely, Bep Voskuijl ["Elly"] stayed away for the first few hours.
>She and Jan Gies ["Henk"] came back at about five o'clock. With Miep and
>Van Maaren they went up to the Annexe. According to Miep:
> "They'd gone through all the cupboards. On the floor lay books,
> papers and whatever else was of no importance to the `Green police.'
> At one point we found some loose pieces of paper, an old account book
> and the exercise books which we had given to Anne when the checked
> diary was running out of space for her notes. We took
> the diary, the account book, the exercise books and all the loose
> pages away with us. But we didn't dare stay up there too long because
> we were afraid that the `Green Police' might come back"
>Miep locked the diaries and the loose sheets away in her office desk.
> One or more weeks later the Annexe was cleared by the removal firm
>of Abraham Puls on German instructions. On that occasion Miep told Van
>Maaren to go and collect any pieces of paper covered with writing that
>might come to light during this operation and give them to her. This he
>did, and she locked away those sheets, too, in her desk (page 62).
>This account covers pretty much the same points as the published accounts
>Mr. Roberts posts. I note that 1) omits Van Maaren's participation in
>the first search of the Annexe; this does not seem a significant
>omission. 2) is virtually identical to the account in the _Critical
>Edition_, and 3) seems an accurate recap of the second search of the Annexe,
>although the section cited by Mr. Roberts fails to mention the first search
>of the Annexe. Again, # 4 is consistent with the _Critical Edition_'s
>narrative of events.
>>>>Posted and E-mailed to Mr. Roberts and to Tom Moran.
>Followups to alt.revisionism, please. E-mailed
>replies to this message will be posted to Usenet unless otherwise
>requested by sender<<<
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't
>got the guts to bite people themselves" --August Strindberg
I read your Part I and Part II. Then I went back and read the initial
post, then I went back and read your parts again. I can see where
your other source offers up the name changes made by the author of the
diary. This certaintly makes it all more complicated to figure out.
I find it interesting that Anne Frank is said to have revised the
diary for the hopes of post war publication.
Your reply explains some of it, and I recognize the lack of exactitude
in historical recounting that should not be expected. In the event
your explaination is at least partly correct I am going to subtract
the "super" off my initial idea on it being "super analogically
significant", and specify "significant" to relate to the over all
confusion in Holocaust accounts, in lieu of it implying fabrications.
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 26 15:22:56 PST 1996
Article: 21397 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Morrison Threatens Violence
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:34:40 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Under alt.rev. "Holocaust Peer Boosting for Revisionism"
"Better be careful or someone might mistake that yellow streak down
your back for a median line."
Does this mean that Morrison is saying someone might run over Tom
Moran with a car - intentionally?
What does Morrison mean by "someone"?
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 26 15:22:59 PST 1996
Article: 21408 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Some Holocaust Facts
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 15:05:55 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: Anywhere from 300,000 to 4 million Jews were gassed at Auschwitz.
>Around a million, actually. Tom, this little factoid of yours has been
>addressed so many times that it's impossible to give you the benefit of
>the doubt; do you intend to stop lying about this at any point in the
>near future?
Here it is again. In this example it is "this little factoid of yours
has been addressed so many times ...", as if to say it has been
settled merely because it has been discussed before. Those who wail
this must think that the posts are put out here for them. In the case
of the wildly flucuated numbers, it is this that steers the mind to
doubt more than any other Holocaust topic.
Anderson says it's a lie. Anderson should go over to the post
"SUSPICIONS" and set the record straight.
>: The total number of people to have been exterminated by the Nazis
>: during the WWII period is 10 million, 11 million or 12 million.
>Mmm-hmm. Is there something strange about this?
Get a load of this one. "Something strange"? No. Uncertain, corrupt,
wicked, sick, hateful, suspicious, revealing, wavering, persecution?
Yes.
Anderson: 'Your honor, this man killed somewhere between 10 and 12
people and we want a guilty verdict.'
His Honor: 'Okay. We're going to need all the facts. First where were
the bodies found?'
Anderson: 'Well your honor, we don't have any bodies, we just know he
did it. He buried them someplace.'
His Honor: 'Someplace?' Do you know where?
Anderson: 'Well yes your honor, we know where many of them are buried
within a certain area.'
His Honor: 'Did you do any probes in these areas to find any bodies?'
Anderson: 'No your honor, we don't think its necessary.'
His Honor: 'Can you identify any of the victims, sir? I mean do you
have any positive identifications?'
Anderson: 'Well your honor, we have one name.
His Honor: 'How did he kill them'.
Anderson: 'Well he shot them.'
His Honor: 'Do you have the murder weapon?'
Anderson: 'Well no your honor, but we found this shell casing in the
back of his car.'
His Honor: 'Now how many did you say he killed?'
Anderson: 'Ten, eleven or twelve, your honor.'
His Honor: 'Well how many was it exactly?'
Anderson: 'I'm not sure your honor, I just know its somewhere around
that number.'
His Honor: 'How do you arrive at these figures?'
Anderson: 'Well this is just the way we figure it.'
His Honor: 'Now let me get this straight, you say this man killed 10,
11 or 12 people, you don't have a murder weapon, you don't have any
bodies, you say you know approximately where the bodies are buried but
you haven't done a probe, the only thing you say you have is a shell
casing, and you want me to find him guilty?'
Anderson: 'Yes your honor.'
>: Although none have been found and identified, there are at least 15
>: mass grave sites where at least 10 thousand people were cremated in
>: each one.
>: Regardless of whether or not the 46 identified incinerator chambers at
>: Auschwitz have barely the volume of a refrigerator, 200 people a day
>: could be cremated in each one.
>: Sometimes the whole process was kept in secret, sometimes it wasn't.
>: There were 700,000, 800,000 or 900,000 Jews in Hungary before the war.
>: Somewhere between 200,000 and 400,000 were exterminated at Auschwitz.
>Uh... yeah.
>: Any eye witness accounts and testimony for the Holocaust story
>: supercede any against it.
>I don't understand what this means.
>: Questioning the Holocaust story is an act of hate.
>No...denying that the Holocaust took place, in the face of overwhelming
>and incontrovertable evidence to the contrary, is either an act of hate
>or of monumental stupidity.
>Bill
From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 26 15:23:02 PST 1996
Article: 21420 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: c3w A ZOne of healthy virile hate - for congenital revisionist liars
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 16:16:54 GMT
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>Kaus T. WISE-not Project (costplan@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: Holocaust revisionists are often challenged when for example
>: Auschwitz history was revised to whatever the present extermination by
>: gassing extremist revisionist figures are today (4 million, 3 million,
>: 2.5 million, 1.5 million, 1 million - whatever) ... If they weren't
>: exterminated at Auschwitz - Where Did They Go?
>Maczuga, doesn't it ever embarass you to keep repeating the same claim
>over and over and over, long after it's been refuted? Once again, no
>scholar ever took seriously the notion that four million jews were
>killed at Auschwitz. You know this--you've been told a hundred times,
>and you've been refered to sources which explain the whole thing. Why
>do you continue to lie?
>Bill
Anderson, don't you ever get tired of denying that the old 4 million
number was ever seriously expounded by Holocaust "scholars".
This topic seems to bother you deeply. It doesn't matter how many
times it's been poured over. There are new people out here all the
time, and they should know.
Personally, I had heard of the revisionist movement many years ago,
and it wasn't until the last 3 or 4 years that really started to look
into it. Up to then I thought it was a topic that should be avoided,
even though I had reservations about the numbers being disposed of in
the photos of those little ovens.
The reduced numbers at Auschwitz was one of the big clinchers
for me, along with the intrigues to keep the Holocaust subject taboo
to discussion.
Why don't you go over to "Suspicions" (alt.rev) and tell us about the
old four million never being taken "seriously" by "scholar(s)". Get
your ass over there Anderson.
From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 27 21:30:34 PST 1996
Article: 21583 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ANNE FRANK DIARY - HOW WAS IT FOUND?
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:28:49 GMT
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> Marty Kelley wrote:
>[Jeff Roberts' stuff snipped]
>
>> >Several of the "contradictions" that you seem to see are cleared up by
>> >the simple fact that, in revising her own diary for hoped-for postwar
>> >publication, Anne Frank herself changed some names of the people who
>> >lived and worked at 263, Prinsengracht. While Miep Gies agreed to have
>> >her real name in the published version, Jan Gies became "Henk" and Bep
>> >Voskuijl became "Elli," or "Elly." (_Critical Edition_ pp. 61-62)
>> >Similarly, the "Office Cleaner" of #3 and "Van Matto" of #4 both
>> >clearly refer to W.G. Van Maaren, the warehouseman at the spice
>> >company that the Franks lived above.
>>
>> >All four of the statements extracted above are consistent with the order
>> >of events listed in _The Diary of Anne Frank: The Critical Edition_,
>> >Edited by David Barnouw and Gerrold Van Der Stroom. New York: Doubleday,
>> >1989. This edition reflects the intensive investigation of the diaries
>> >undertaken by the Netherlands State Institute for War Documentation.
>[_Critical Edition_, p. 62, account snipped for brevity]
>
>> I read your Part I and Part II. Then I went back and read the initial
>> post, then I went back and read your parts again. I can see where
>> your other source offers up the name changes made by the author of the
>> diary. This certaintly makes it all more complicated to figure out.
>> I find it interesting that Anne Frank is said to have revised the
>> diary for the hopes of post war publication.
>Let's be clear on what you mean by "I find it interesting...", Mr.
>Moran. In the past, you have often used that phrase to imply that
>you think someone is being deceptive.
>In Anne Frank's case, her motives for revising the diary are contained in
>her own notes, written as she was doing the revision itself: She was
>optimistic that the war would end soon, and had aspirations of becoming a
>professional writer someday. Further, a Dutch official had made a radio
>broadcast, carried by Allied/resistance radio stations, urging Dutch
>citizens to keep records of their day-to-day experiences under the German
>occupation; Anne refers to this speech in her diary.
> She writes quite often in the diary of her
>desire to publish the diary, and of her dissatisfaction with the
>sketchiness of some of the early entries. There is no evidence that her
>revisions involved anything more than "fleshing out" some scenes that the
>early versions did not go into much detail on.
>I would suggest that you check out the _Critical Edition_ and read it. It
>includes side-by-side comparisons of the three most important versions of
>the text: Anne's first version of the diary, her second, revised version,
>and the English-language translation of the diary that was first
>published in the U.S. It also includes a meticulously-detailed
>introductory section which proves the authenticity of the diary.
I don't plan on reading anything on Anne Frank. I find it of low
relevance to the main topic of the Holocaust.
>> Your reply explains some of it, and I recognize the lack of exactitude
>> in historical recounting that should not be expected. In the event
>> your explaination is at least partly correct I am going to subtract
>> the "super" off my initial idea on it being "super analogically
>> significant", and specify "significant" to relate to the over all
>> confusion in Holocaust accounts, in lieu of it implying fabrications.
>Mr. Moran, that almost looks like a retraction! Congratulations! Would
>you now like to apologize to Keith Morrison for falsely accusing him of
>supporting the jailing of Holocaust deniers? Would you also like to
>apologize to me for falsely claiming that I seek to limit all discussion
>of Holocaust denial to alt.revisionism?
Retraction? I made on a statement on the initial post, you came back
with your correction, I acknowledged some validity to it.
Apologize to Morrison? Apologize to you? I read between your lines,
and I still believe both of you are closet cases, when you say you
welcome free speech. Here you are, out here on alt.rev. You should be
going to your college heads and denmanding that they make the campus
available to debate so as to settle the matter once and for all on
that campus. Get out there and start stumping.
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one
>occurs to me. . ." --They Might Be Giants
From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan 28 12:11:13 PST 1996
Article: 21801 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 15:53:19 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
># If it has been proven by the US gas chambers then do you not
># think it interesting that, other than ultimate death, the
># description of US gas chamber executions do not match any of
># those provided by death camp witnesses?
>Oh, for God's sake. Of course there will be differences
>between how mass murder by gas is carried out, and between
>(very rare) executions of convicted criminals in the gas
>chambers in US prisons. The major difference is in the
>number of those being executed - which calls for using a
>different technique - and the fact that the SS didn't take
>as many steps to prevent danger to the "sonderkommando" who
>had to enter the chambers and take the corpses out, as is
>done in modern execution gas chambers. Also, a cheaper and
>easier-to-use generator for the HCN was used.
>Think about a mass murder by shooting (which most armies have
>committed here and there, the US did it in Mi-Lai, for instance).
You say "the US" carried out the incident at Mi-Lai?
>It is very different from an orderly execution by a firing
>squad. Same holds for gassing.
>-Danny Keren.
>--
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>-Lu Xun.
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 29 09:30:01 PST 1996
Article: 16858 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.internet.media-coverage,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: ACLU on Internet Censorship
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:29:56 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>In , joelr@winternet.com said:
>>>> >Thank you Mr. Mittleman, very nicely put. You are, in my estimation
>>>> >a gentleman.
>>>>
>>>> You, err, came out with that too soon, George. Mittleman was confusing
>you
>>>> with Frank Weltner.
>>>Until he says something nasty to me, he's still a gentleman.
>>Oh. So that's how it's decided. (You really should lay off that stuff.)
>It seems though, that Mr. Graves can say something nasty to someone and he
>still considers himself to be a gentleman?
McFee's posts prove him a hypocrite. Just click around on "McFee" and
witness the 'nasty' responses.
>--
>Gord McFee
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 29 09:30:02 PST 1996
Article: 16859 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.internet.media-coverage,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Simon Wiesenthal Center's *previous* Internet censorship attempts
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:30:01 GMT
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lizard@dnai.com (Lizard) wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:30:20 +0000, George Graves
> wrote:
>>I'm not talking about religion, I don't care about someone's religious beliefs,
>>I'm talking about the seed of Abraham.
>And what, precisely, is this "seed"? I think the genetic heritage of
>Abraham (if he ever existed, which is dubious) is pretty much diluted
>by now...I'm willing to bet, in fact, that my family tree and yours is
>a lot more intertwined than you'd like to admit. The amount of cross
>breeding between Jews and Christians in Europe is such that the gene
>pool is hopelessly mixed, as is, more importantly, the meme pool. Try
>to purge all "Jewish influences" from any good library of classical
>literature, and you'll have no books left. (For a start, you'd need to
>purge the Bible, and any book inspired by it or referring to it)
Perhaps you could give a empirical follow up to your assertion that
Jewish blood is behind "any good library of classical literature".
The Bible is a book of superstitions. The Greek influence is what is
prevailing in the end run. That thinking which put man on the moon
started with the Greeks. Perhaps if the Bible was never accepted by
Europeans man would have been on the moon a thousand years ago.
>>Postjudiced = post-judgement. I am postjudiced against multiculturalists
>>and World Zionists.
>Multiculturalists exist, but the name is disingenuous -- they want a
>monoculture, and have no tolerance for anyone who differs
>ideologically for them. "Diversity", the left, means a white liberal,
>a black liberal, a gay liberal, and a handicapped liberal. Diversity
>of thought is verboten. As for "World Zionists", I've yet to meet
>anyone who claims to be one.
>*------------------------------------------------------------*
>Evolution doesn't take prisoners:Lizard
>Sometimes, 'peace' is just aother word for 'surrender':JMS
>URL:http://www.dnai.com/~lizard.
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 29 09:30:03 PST 1996
Article: 16860 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Brain Size
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:30:18 GMT
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Greg Raven wrote:
>Fran Siegal wrote:
>> > >I can already hear the loony-tunes howling about it, but try
>> > >Stephen J Gould's _The Mismeasure of Man_ for an analysis of how the
>> > >scientists involved allowed their own expectations to colour the results
>> > >that they saw.
>>
>> Both Gould and Lewontin, who are at Harvard, are admitted Marxists.
>>
>> Therefore they feel committed to place an emphasis on man's susceptibility
>> to environmental (economic ) influences.
>I would be very surprized if Gould would publicly affirm his support for his earlier positions on race,
>as delineated in The Mismeasure of Man.
Gould does not theorize along objective tracks. I would say most, if
not all of his theories will be scoffed at in the future.
He is also a hopeless ethnocentric. He was the center commentator in a
documentary about baseball which tried to make it look like there was
significant Jewish presence and responsibility in the sport.
>--
>Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
>PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 29 12:27:21 PST 1996
Article: 21946 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.correct,alt.feminazis,alt.mens-rights,soc.men,soc.rights.human,nz.general,nz.politics,soc.culture.new-zealand
Subject: Re: freedom of speech is indivisible
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oleum@spuddy.mew.co.uk (Nick Hiams) wrote:
>In article <4ebdnl$8uq@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>,
>ntc1095@is.nyu.edu (Neal T. Cotton) wrote:
>>A32.3.91.960110234901.38148B-100000@kitts.u.arizona.edu>
>><4d4588$rld@news.atlantech.net> <4d5s4s$5km@curly.cc.emory.edu>
>>:Distribution:
>>
>>william c anderson (libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu) wrote:
>>: Wyatt Copple (wyattcoppl@atlantech.net) wrote:
>
>>: : Nevermind hiostory look at the "Creation Science" movement to
>>: : try to prescribe "guidelines" (e.g., requiring teachers to
>>: : offer "Creation Science" as a plausible alternatice to
>>: : Darwinism on how to teach science. Frankly, I believe the
>>: : creationists have a point (that the science curriculum is a
>>: : bit one-way when it comes to evolution).
>As a science teacher I would suggest that the most "correct" solution is to
>present the evidence and let the kids decide for themselves. I'd have no
>problem with this as a teacher and this approach helps to teach what
>science is all about. Weigh up the evidence and make a judgement....
Good philosophy. In the end run the student will come to the more
factual. If in the beginning there are those that hold to mythological
ideas, there will also be those that don't, and this will prevail.
>
>> Makes you wonder, why do people continue to believe things that are
>>prooven wrong.
>IMHO (and yours) it is proven....
>> Don't get me wrong, there are some rational reasons for
>>certain beliefs. For example, people were right to believe that the sun
>>went around the earth. After all, what would it look like if it really
>>did orbit the earth? Well, it would look exactly the same. But modern
>>science has disprooven this, and we had to move on.
>So why not present the *evidence*? Then the kids can prove it for
>themselves.
>Nick
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>| E-mail -> oleum@spuddy.mew.co.uk !!!!! |
>| This is a FREE e-mail service <\O-O/> (reserved for a witty .sig) |
>| provided by Sweh....Thanx Sweh! \_-_/ |
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 29 12:27:22 PST 1996
Article: 21947 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.internet.media-coverage,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: ACLU on Internet Censorship
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:29:56 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>In , joelr@winternet.com said:
>>>> >Thank you Mr. Mittleman, very nicely put. You are, in my estimation
>>>> >a gentleman.
>>>>
>>>> You, err, came out with that too soon, George. Mittleman was confusing
>you
>>>> with Frank Weltner.
>>>Until he says something nasty to me, he's still a gentleman.
>>Oh. So that's how it's decided. (You really should lay off that stuff.)
>It seems though, that Mr. Graves can say something nasty to someone and he
>still considers himself to be a gentleman?
McFee's posts prove him a hypocrite. Just click around on "McFee" and
witness the 'nasty' responses.
>--
>Gord McFee
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 29 12:27:23 PST 1996
Article: 21948 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.internet.media-coverage,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Simon Wiesenthal Center's *previous* Internet censorship attempts
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:30:01 GMT
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lizard@dnai.com (Lizard) wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:30:20 +0000, George Graves
> wrote:
>>I'm not talking about religion, I don't care about someone's religious beliefs,
>>I'm talking about the seed of Abraham.
>And what, precisely, is this "seed"? I think the genetic heritage of
>Abraham (if he ever existed, which is dubious) is pretty much diluted
>by now...I'm willing to bet, in fact, that my family tree and yours is
>a lot more intertwined than you'd like to admit. The amount of cross
>breeding between Jews and Christians in Europe is such that the gene
>pool is hopelessly mixed, as is, more importantly, the meme pool. Try
>to purge all "Jewish influences" from any good library of classical
>literature, and you'll have no books left. (For a start, you'd need to
>purge the Bible, and any book inspired by it or referring to it)
Perhaps you could give a empirical follow up to your assertion that
Jewish blood is behind "any good library of classical literature".
The Bible is a book of superstitions. The Greek influence is what is
prevailing in the end run. That thinking which put man on the moon
started with the Greeks. Perhaps if the Bible was never accepted by
Europeans man would have been on the moon a thousand years ago.
>>Postjudiced = post-judgement. I am postjudiced against multiculturalists
>>and World Zionists.
>Multiculturalists exist, but the name is disingenuous -- they want a
>monoculture, and have no tolerance for anyone who differs
>ideologically for them. "Diversity", the left, means a white liberal,
>a black liberal, a gay liberal, and a handicapped liberal. Diversity
>of thought is verboten. As for "World Zionists", I've yet to meet
>anyone who claims to be one.
>*------------------------------------------------------------*
>Evolution doesn't take prisoners:Lizard
>Sometimes, 'peace' is just aother word for 'surrender':JMS
>URL:http://www.dnai.com/~lizard.
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 29 12:27:24 PST 1996
Article: 21949 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ANNE FRANK DIARY - HOW WAS IT FOUND?
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:30:07 GMT
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Alexander Baron wrote:
>In article
> t08o@unb.ca "MORRISON KEITH MURRAY" writes:
>> No. He hates me too. And I'm not even Jewish.
>Moran hates Morris who is not Jewish therefore he is an anti-Semite. Oh boy.
He's not?
>--
>Alexander Baron: InFoText Manuscripts
>"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
>the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 29 12:27:24 PST 1996
Article: 21950 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ANNE FRANK DIARY - HOW WAS IT FOUND?
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:30:12 GMT
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Alexander Baron wrote:
>In article <4eavcr$ggn@zippy.cais.net> tm@pacificnet.net "tom moran" writes:
>> I don't plan on reading anything on Anne Frank. I find it of low
>> relevance to the main topic of the Holocaust.
>Too true, but you should research this subject properly; there is a lot of
>genuine confusion over this document.
I believe you could be right, but nevertheless I believe it a
cumbersome topic that could tend to steer new comers to thinking of it
as going too far. Its unnecessary.
>--
>Alexander Baron: InFoText Manuscripts
>"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
>the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 29 12:27:25 PST 1996
Article: 21952 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: COMPU SERVE LIED
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:30:33 GMT
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Sat, 20 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor) wrote:
>>
>> >On Sat, 13 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> >
>> >> Marty Kelley wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >If Mr. Moran wants to speak in Tucson, I'd adamantly support his right to
>> >> >speak. And I'd adamantly protest virtually everything he'd be likely to say.
>> >>
>> >> "Protest"?
>>
>> >"Protest: .. To give formal expression to objection, dissent or disapproval;
>> >to make a formal (often written) delaration against some proposal, decision,
>> >or action"
>>
>> You mean go to the Dean and protest? You mean write various college
>> heads and protest against the right to speak? You mean shout and rant
>> while discussion was going on? Or what?
>>
>> I forgot to ask you about "Adamantly".
>Adamantly: vehemently, sternly, immovably. I would adamantly support your
>right to speak, Mr. Moran. And I would also, just as adamantly, disagree
>with the content of your speech. I would not attempt to stop you from
>speaking in any way. I would also do everything I could to oppose your
>lies by exercising my own right to free speech: I would write letters (or
>submit guest columns) to the editors of the campus and local newspapers,
>exposing your lies, I would organize student workshops on the history of
>the Holocaust, and I might show up at your speech to challenge you
>(during the question-and-answer period) to substantiate your lies. In
>other words, I would engae you in vigorous debate, as I already do in
>this forum, and I would do everything I could, in a free and open forum,
>to expose your lies, misinterpretations, and stupidity.
> What part of this don't you understand?
"Lies, misinterpretations, and stupidity"?
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one
>occurs to me. . ." --They Might Be Giants
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 29 12:27:26 PST 1996
Article: 21958 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Without Jewish genes, Goyems would be nothing
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:36:46 GMT
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"Lizard" (Lizard@dnai.com) wrote in "Re:Simon Wiesenthal Center's
*previous* internet censorship attempts"
"The amount of cross breeding between Jews and Christians in Europe is
such that the gene pool is hopelessly mixed as is, more importantly
the meme pool.
Try to purge all '"Jewish influences"' from any good library of
classical literature and you'll have no books left."
By "Jewish influences" we should take it to mean genetic influences.
Well that certain is an ethnocentric ego full. Now all we have to is
wait and see if this fool can come back with the particulars. But wait
he did add that the Bible is one of the classical literatures and all
that was written about it. But then the Bible is just a conveyance of
a superstitious - racist mentality.
As to the other literature - from Plato to Shakespeare to Dickenson
and the long list of other writers, philosophers, artists, inventors
and discoverers, how many were driven by the Jewish gene?
The fact is that the Jewish gene has been for the most part obscured
and displaced by the gene of the host society. This is evident in that
the Jews from various European countries even take on the physical
appearance characteristic to the area. Jews from Romania, say, tend to
be short, and Jews from central northern Europe tend to be taller.
Considering the low Jewish population ratio, if we should take say 10
genetic connections and put them into a thousand others, in time the
genetic characteristics of the 10 will be so overwhelmed that it will
become extinct.
If there are any genetic influences taking place between Jews and
Goys, it is the Goy that is prevailing. Judging by comparison of
Jewish history against the Goyem history, it is apparent if it was the
other way around we wouldn't have seen the likes of Michaelangelo,
Newton, Shakespeare, Nieztche, Wagner and all the rest.
What with all the revelations and attention on genetic structures, we
can expect a barrage of Jewish murmurings about their genetic
influences.
From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 29 12:27:27 PST 1996
Article: 21960 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door - throw the rest away
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:49:45 GMT
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>Greg Raven wrote:
># Because Zyklon B is specifically designed to gas off slowly, it is
># obvious a poor choice for a homicidal gassing.
>Danny keren wrote:
>It's amazing to see that Raven continues with this rubbish, no
>matter how many times he is corrected.
>Even "revisionist chemist" Germar Rudolph stated that about
>40 percent of the HCN is released within half-an-hour. All the
>SS had to do was to use, in the gas chambers, a concentration
>comparable to that used for delousing. Since humans die
>quickly from a far smaller concentration, much less than 40
>percent would have to gas off in order to kill them.
>Moreover, Dr. Ulrich Roessler did what our "revisionist scholars"
>were too lazy to do for the last 20 years: he located the
>original patent for Zyklon-B, which states that the rate of release
>is even faster than what Rudolph gave.
># Greg Raven wrote:
># To claim that you could scatter same Zyklon B in a huge room and
># within a few minutes have murdered the hundreds of people inside
># the room, flies in the face of the facts.
>Danny Keren wrote:
>The above clearly refutes this silly statement by Raven, but
>have no fear, he will keep repeating it in the future. After
>all, he is a "revisionist scholar".
Lets see. Raven says that Zyclone B is made to gas off slowly
and thus would be a poor choice for the mass extermination of human
beings under the conditions alleged.
Karen responds with some material that he concludes "clearly refutes"
Raven's "rubbish".
The summary of the pertinent refuting information offered by
Keren is:
1. 40% of the HCN escapes the storing medium in the first half hour.
2. Humans die quickly from much less concentration, so much less than
40% would have to gas off.
3. That recently discovered patents to Zyclone B show that the gas off
is even faster.
The points given do not offer sufficient parameters for
demonstrating that Zyclone B is an efficient product for mass
extermination, such as how much is needed, in what volume and for how
long.
Regardless of how fast the HCN evaporates into the existing air, it
has nothing to do with the necessary volume/quantity/air borne
level/time factors, only giving evaporation rate for the first 1/2
hour. You cannot deduce the most critical factors from the information
that Keren has supplied.
As it turns out Kerens refuting material tends to support the idea
that Zyclone B is an inappropriate product for mass human
extermination.
Since no numerical difference is cited between the 40%, and the "even
faster" gassing rate for Zyclone B in the first 1/2 hour, we are left
with an indefinite.
Lets make it 50%, in the first half hour. This would come out to about
1.6% of 50% per minute being gassed off in this time. We could
recognize that the rate of evaporation would be even quicker from the
time the can was opened in the first few minutes, gradiating off as
time went on. Lets make it 2.5% of 50% is gassed off for every minute,
giving the Holocaust position the benefit of the numerical increase.
The popular times given for the extermination process are from 5 to 10
minutes. Giving the Holocaust position the benefit of the numerical
numbers, lets make it 10 minutes.
Putting the figures together we come out needing only 33% of 50%, or
more precisely, 15% of the readily used product to attain the goal of
mass extermination in the time frame claimed.
Right here we can see that the product is inefficient for short term
application. Only 15% is used for the intended purpose with the other
85% being useless - wasted - lingering, left over to complicate the
ventilation of the chamber, the unloading of the bodies and the
preparation for the new batch.
This alone shows that Zyclone B would have been a poor choice for mass
extermination and further suggests that the product itself was not
designed for the purpose.
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 30 12:01:47 PST 1996
Article: 22070 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ANNE FRANK DIARY - HOW WAS IT FOUND?
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 15:05:50 GMT
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t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON KEITH MURRAY) wrote:
>In article <4eip1b$46k@zippy.cais.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>>In article
>>> t08o@unb.ca "MORRISON KEITH MURRAY" writes:
>>>> No. He hates me too. And I'm not even Jewish.
>>>Moran hates Morris who is not Jewish therefore he is an anti-Semite. Oh boy.
>> He's not?
>Assuming everyone means me (and given my post being cited, I'd say that was
>a fairly reasonable assumption)...
>...of course I'm not Jewish you silly twit. I've said so numerous times.
>My name isn't one typically associated with being Jewish.
>My ancestory isn't one that is typically associated with being Jewish.
>I've said I'm not Jewish.
>Ergo, a basic conclusion would be that I'm not Jewish.
>Of course Mr Moran has the capacity to look at the sentence "Deniers should
>not be jailed." and somehow come to the conclusion that I mean the exact
>opposite.
Golly, what a scathing denial of not being Jewish. Could this be
considered "anti-Semitic"?
>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 30 12:01:48 PST 1996
Article: 22071 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 14:55:49 GMT
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Holocaust books donate a considerable amount of space to establishing
a Jewish population in Europe to be able to maintain the 6,000,000
Jewish victims claim. This topic is covered to a certain degree on
alt.rev. under "Hebrew Numerology".
Tallying of the Jewish population takes on the same dynamics as the
evolving numerology of the Holocaust story in general, where anywhere
between 300,000 and 4,000,000 Jews were killed at Auschwitz, 10, 11 or
12 million people in all were exterminated by Germany, that anywhere
btween 7, 8 or 9 hundred thousand Jews were in Hungary - etc.
Even to this day there seems to be a wide variation as to the existing
Jewish population in the world. Figures that pop up here and there
range from 13 million to 16 million to 20 million, take your pick.
Since the Jews accounting of their numbers at this time is so widely
varied, how can we accept their accounts of their population during
and preceding the Holocaust story.
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 30 14:51:12 PST 1996
Article: 22089 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mi-Lai (Re: ZYCLONE B - powder, pellet, liquid?)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 15:20:04 GMT
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Marty Kelley wrote:
>On Mon, 29 Jan 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>> >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>> ># You say "the US" carried out the incident at Mi-Lai?
>>
>> >The correct word is "massacre", not "incident".
>>
>> >Are "revisionists" now claiming it never took place? Or that maybe
>> >it was not the US army, but some folks from crazy Zundel's UFO's?
>>
>> By stating "US" he implys it was US policy. The only US policy I know
>> of that condones and supports massacre is it's support of Israel.
>Actually, Mr. Moran, you may be shocked to learn this, but not everything
>done by representatives of the US--in this case, the massacre of
>civilians at Me Lai, Vietnam--is a matter of US policy. (In fact, the
>Army court-martialled Lt. Calley, who led the massacre)
>And yet, we can rightfully say, colloquially at least, that "The US
>massacred civilians at Me Lai," because this action was carried out by US
>Army soldiers--even though they were operating outside the approved rules
>of engagement.
>By the way, here are just a few other governments who massacre (or have
>massacred in past regimes) civilians despite having U.S. diplomatic and
>economic support:
> Nigeria
> El Salvador
> Guatemala
> Chile
> Argentina
> Haiti
> Dominican Republic
> The Philippines
> Zaire
> China
> Iran (during the Shah's rule)
> Iraq (pre-Gulf War)
> Honduras
> Panama
I see you have left out ISRAEL. ISRAEL which gets more aid than all
the rest above that do. The point of Israel killing children is truely
a Jewish policy. Mai Lai was a one time thing and the intifada was a
couple of hundred incidents. Mai Lai was prosecuted, the killers of
Palestinian children were not. What ever policies you say the listed
countries have, you don't see letters to the editors, columns,
articles or full page ads in our major medias telling us their
policies are justified as we see about Israel.
>These are just a few off the top of my head.
>I'm glad to see you have such concern for human rights violations. I
>would be happy to send information on Amnesty International, the foremost
>human rights organization in the world.
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one
>occurs to me. . ." --They Might Be Giants
From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan 30 22:02:16 PST 1996
Article: 22110 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.germany
Subject: Re: Are Jews and Celts kin
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 16:38:05 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:17111 alt.revisionism:22110
kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>In article <4eisl9$2hkc@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>,
>EEGG87A@prodigy.com (A Huber) wrote:
>>The above alleged quote is NOT from Ernst Zundel. This is just another
>>fabrication by the Wiesenthal Centre. Nice try, scumbags.
>That is most certainly correct. Mr. Zundel hasn't the courage
>to appear on the UseNet.
And what is Simon Wiesenthals excuse? Where is Debra Lipstat? Mc Vay
the collaborator. Your so stupid its incredible. Your being used. Of
course you are paid for it. You had no job, had to make some money
somehow. Your going to be the brunt of denial in the future. You will
be turned on. It will be said - 'We had nothing to do with him'.
>--
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
> Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
> Kenneth McVay OBC. Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 31 11:48:13 PST 1996
Article: 22201 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.germany
Subject: Re: Are Jews and Celts kin
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 14:05:03 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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References: <4e9e0t$r4j@news.ais.net> <4ebsh9$r56@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4eisl9$2hkc@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com> <4ejch7$bio@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>In article <4eisl9$2hkc@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>,
>EEGG87A@prodigy.com (A Huber) wrote:
>>The above alleged quote is NOT from Ernst Zundel. This is just another
>>fabrication by the Wiesenthal Centre. Nice try, scumbags.
>That is most certainly correct. Mr. Zundel hasn't the courage
>to appear on the UseNet.
And what is Simon Wiesenthals excuse? Where is Debra Lipstadt? Mc Vay
the collaborator. Your so stupid its incredible. Your being used. Of
course you are paid for it. You had no job, had to make some money
somehow. Your going to be the brunt of denial in the future. You will
be turned on. It will be said - 'We had nothing to do with him'.
>--
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
> Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
> Kenneth McVay OBC. Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 31 11:48:13 PST 1996
Article: 22202 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Where is Simon Wiesenthal? Where is Debra Lipstadt?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 14:05:22 GMT
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Holocaust perpetuators want to know - Where is Ernst Zundel on
alt.rev?
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 31 11:48:14 PST 1996
Article: 22203 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran Lies Again (was Re: Without Jewish genes, Goyems would be nothing)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 14:05:55 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON KEITH MURRAY) writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> That has got to be one of the most blatant examples of taking statements out
>> of context and creative editing that I have ever seen.
>>
>>
>>>>>
> On the other hand, it was a really good explanation for why so few Jews
> are Nobel laureates in the sciences. Next week Tommy will explain why there
>were so few Jews writing tunes for Tin Pan Alley.
Morrison, did you ever notice that those true attainers who are touted
as Jewish tend to "look" less Jewish?
Of course we don't know if Jews are given precedence over Goyims in
the industry that is saturated with Jews, do we? Since Jews make up
only 2% of America, this would leave 98% left over. Seems like there
is sufficient cause to think that there are many others out there
among the 98%, perhaps more qualified, but passed over.
> --YFE
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 31 11:48:15 PST 1996
Article: 22204 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Photos make Holocaust story rediculous
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 14:08:34 GMT
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In a aerial photograph taken by the Allies, May 31, 1944, of Auschwitz
I, the makeup of the camp is clearly discernable. One can even see
people in the areas between buildings.
Auschwitz itself is a small area nestled among a wider complex of
other facilities. Narrow roads separate the buildings which have about
the same proximities of a dense packed American residentual area.
In the photograph various buildings are captioned in association with
arrows. "Registration building, Camp kitchen" etc.
Of course the "Gas chamber and Crematorium I" are pointed out, and as
it turns out, it is located right in among other buildings in the camp
itself and in close proximity to other buildings in adjacent
facilities. In fact some of those most immediate adjacent buildings
are identified as "Camp Admin.", "Commodants Office" and the most
adjacent is the SS Hospital.
Now lets get this straight, thousands of people are gassed in the
building, and then the poisonous residue is ventilated into the
immediate area?
Then they are cremated and reeking smoke comes pouring out of the
chimney at the location?
Gee.
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 31 11:48:16 PST 1996
Article: 22208 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The more plans I see the more rediculous the story.
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:20:25 GMT
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One place to find a ready account by Pressac, one of the most cited
authorities for the Holocaust story is in the hideous book "Anatomy of
the Auschwitz Death Camp" a compilation of various writers on various
aspects of the Holocaust story.
Under the chapter "The Machinery of Mass Murder at Auschwitz" by
Pressac and Van Pelt we are given a number of plans for crematorium,
said to have been drawn up by the Germans and taken from Moscow
archives.
The first plans are for Crematorium I at Auschwitz I are not actual
German documents, but drawings for the publication that focus on
showing the various ventilation plans the Germans had considered. The
floor plans show the general layout of the building.
According to the floor plans of this building, about 30 by 80 feet,
the course of the procedure for mass extermination would be:
File the victims day after day unto thousands through a standard size
door into a "vestibule" about 15 feet long to another door way, file
right about 10 feet to another standard sized door to the "morgue"
(gassing area) which is about 10 by 40 feet, gas em, 300 to 1000 at a
time, take the bodies back out one at a time through the same door to
the ovens in the ajoining room, stack them up in any available space,
about 3 or 4 hundred sq. feet, while they are burned 3, 6 or 9 at a
time, empty the ashes and take them out through the door to the
"vestibule" and out through the other door to the outside. While
burning the three hundred, say 10 at a time, Sonndercommandos are
filing in and out, getting the bodies from the gassing room or filing
in a new batch of 300 or so right past the stacked up bodies. Since
the gassing pace is 300 to whatever in only 10 minutes or so, and the
cremation pace is said to be 20 minutes or so for 10 bodies, make sure
the bodies are stacked as efficiently as possible so as to be able to
have thousands piled up in the available space of 3 or 4 hundred
square feet, while waiting for the cremation process.
After each gassing ventilate the poisonous gases out into the street,
just 20 feet away from the SS Hospital, 30 feet from the
Administration building and jsut down the street from the Commodants
Office.
Even though thousands must file through the complex to the killing
center day after day past many buildings and never return make sure it
is all done in secret.
I-----------------------------------------------------------------I
I I _____________
I autopsy I
I room I I
I I
I---- ---- _____________
I
I I
____________ ______ ______________
I I I
I lay I I
I out I I
I room I wash I
I I room I
I I I _______________
I
I I I I
I I I I
I I I I
I I I I
-------------------------------------------------------------------
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 31 11:48:17 PST 1996
Article: 22209 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The more plans I see ... Part II
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:20:32 GMT
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How to design a facility for mass extermination of hundreds of
thousands of people.
In the rediculous book "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp", we are
given the renditions and floor plans of German designs for crematoria
- gassing process.
Build a structure about 30 by 100 feet, complete with eleven multipane
French windows and six dormers with multipane windows, giving it a
nice look.
Give it one entrance through a ell vestibule with 2 multipane French
doors. Build the smoke stack right next to the entrance.
Inside using 1/2 the available floor space build 5 ovens.
Under ground, extending from the end of the building build an air raid
..., er a gassing facility about 20 by 70 feet, with stairs leading
down from the main surface structure.
Procede with the operational steps.
File up thousands of people to the French doors. File in 3 to 4
hundred at a time into the oven area. Turn right and file down to the
end and turn left. Turn right through a standard sized door. Enter
through standard sized door to staircase and file the hundreds down to
subterrainian chamber. Gas the people 3 to 4 hundred at a time. Take
bodies out one at a time, up stairs and through the standard size
doors to oven room. Stack up bodies wherever while waiting for
cremation. Go get another 3 or 4 hundred. Keep it up, day after day,
week after week, month after month, year after year.
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 31 11:48:18 PST 1996
Article: 22210 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!news3.mr.net!mr.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!primus.ac.net!news.cais.net!zippy.cais.net!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.internet.media-coverage,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: ACLU on Internet Censorship
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:20:52 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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References: <4d8k90$m2j@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <30F9217B.2FA6@aimnet.com> <23JAN199617424548@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31063EA4.5AD1@aimnet.com> <4eg1na <4eip11$46k@zippy.cais.net> <4emrbl$2msa@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>In <4eip11$46k@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net said:
>>>>>Until he says something nasty to me, he's still a gentleman.
>>>>Oh. So that's how it's decided. (You really should lay off that stuff.)
>>>It seems though, that Mr. Graves can say something nasty to someone and he
>>>still considers himself to be a gentleman?
>>McFee's posts prove him a hypocrite. Just click around on "McFee" and
>>witness the 'nasty' responses.
>Mr. McFee posts on the level of the correspondent. If that person is civil,
>he or she can be as aggressive as they want and Mr. McFee will respond in
>kind. As long as that happens, Mr. McFee is a perfect gentleman and a very
>clever and erudite one, in my ever-so-humble opinion.
>Should, on the other hand, the correspondent decide to get down and dirty,
>Mr. McFee can do that as well. It's all in the rules of the game.
>(To lurkers) I wonder if Moran will notice that I used the third person in
>referring to myself. Bets?
Does your record support your self announcement?
>--
>Gord McFee
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 31 11:48:18 PST 1996
Article: 22211 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Without Jewish genes, Goyems would be nothing
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:21:01 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>
>> I believe the immediate record shows you to be attempting to show that
>> the Jews are "exceptiional". You say "anti-Semitic", I say
>> 'anti-Goyimism'. Your ethnocentrically insane.
>>
>>>>>
> The only one here who deserves this appellation is you. You are so
>fanatically interested in denying the importance of Jews and Jewish culture that
>you are compelled to lie about them.
WHERE? Exactly?
> --YFE
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 31 11:48:19 PST 1996
Article: 22212 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:21:08 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Laura Finsten wrote:
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>> Holocaust books donate a considerable amount of space to establishing
>>a Jewish population in Europe to be able to maintain the 6,000,000
>>Jewish victims claim. This topic is covered to a certain degree on
>>alt.rev. under "Hebrew Numerology".
>> Tallying of the Jewish population takes on the same dynamics as the
>>evolving numerology of the Holocaust story in general, where anywhere
>>between 300,000 and 4,000,000 Jews were killed at Auschwitz, 10, 11 or
>>12 million people in all were exterminated by Germany, that anywhere
>>btween 7, 8 or 9 hundred thousand Jews were in Hungary - etc.
>> Even to this day there seems to be a wide variation as to the existing
>>Jewish population in the world. Figures that pop up here and there
>>range from 13 million to 16 million to 20 million, take your pick.
>> Since the Jews accounting of their numbers at this time is so widely
>>varied, how can we accept their accounts of their population during
>>and preceding the Holocaust story.
>I will not address the insinuation that pre-World War 2 estimates of the
>size of Europe's Jewish population are falsified, but instead will
>refer readers to Keith Morrison's very lucid critical analysis of Mr.
>Moran's "Hebrew Numerology" post, and to the Nazis' own estimate of the
>numbers of Jews in Europe, available on the Nizkor website. The Wannsee
>Protocols, which estimate Europe's Jews at 11,000,000, are NOT Jews'
>estimates of their numbers in Europe preceding the biggest killing
>spree of the Holocaust, but the Nazis'.
Do the Holocaust perpetuators think Nazi records are valid? It all
depends.
>I do have a couple of ideas about why "the Jews accounting of their
>numbers at this time is so widely varied". Canada does not ask for
>religious affiliation in its censuses. Nor has it in the past asked
>for the racial or ethnic origin of its residents. I would imagine,
>given the past uses to which such data have been put, that many other
>western democracies do not require Jews to identify themselves as such
>in censuses. Censuses are, of course, the single most reliable
>source of information about a country's population and about those
>variables (age, income, whatever) that the country's government choses
>to collect information about. In most present-day countries, however,
>census data would not be usable to identify and hence count Jews.
>So what other sources of information might be available? Estimates
>based on synagogue membership, perhaps, but of course figures collected
>this way will always have to deal with the reality that many of those who
>might identify themselves as Jews (as well as many who might not, but
>whom Mr. Moran and his cronies would) aren't going to be counted
>because they don't practice their religion. I refer you once again
>to Mr. Morrison's very lucid discussion of the problems inherent in
>population estimation in his response to your "Hebrew numerology".
>You see sinister implications in the strangest things, Mr. Moran. How
>many Catholics are there in the world? Do you think the fact that no
>would could tell you exactly what the number of Catholics is carries
>some dire and sinister implication for understanding how widespread
>Catholicism was in the early 16th century? Or might even constitute
>evidence that the Vatican is a hoax?
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 31 11:48:20 PST 1996
Article: 22213 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: My Reduced Presence on a.r.
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:21:15 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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Message-ID: <4eo4o9$5p9@zippy.cais.net>
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jaklein@unix.amherst.edu (Josh Klein) wrote:
>After reconsidering the amount of time I need to devote to my
>thesis, I've decided to reduce severely my presence on a.r..
>I'll be checking the group from now on only irregularly, so
>I'd like to encourage anyone who wishes to address me directly
>to contact me via email.
>I must say that this has been an interesting place over the last two
> years. I am amazed by the contrast between the diligence of
>people like McVay, McCarthy, and Ostrov, who have done an incredible
>job archiving and organizing vast amounts of information, and those
>(who may remain unnamed) who respond to citations of fact with rudeness,
>who veer off on unproductive tangents, and who rehash the most vile
>antisemitism and Nazi apologia while maintaining that Holocaust denial
>has nothing to do with antisemitism.
"Rudeness", "unproductive tangents" - revisionists - but not those for
the Holocaust?
>Perhaps in May I'll be back. In the meantime, anyone who wants to
>discuss hermeneutic approaches to justice is welcome to call me :-)
>Best Wishes,
>Josh
>--
>Josh Klein
>Amherst College
From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 31 11:48:21 PST 1996
Article: 22214 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Zioexaggeration = 200,000,000
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:21:21 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
"Lizard" (Lizard@dnai.com) wrote in "Re:Simon Wiesenthal Center's
*previous* internet censorship attempts"
"The amount of cross breeding between Jews and Christians in Europe is
such that the gene pool is hopelessly mixed as is, more importantly
the meme pool.
Try to purge all '"Jewish influences"' from any good library of
classical literature and you'll have no books left."
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