The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/m/moran.tom/1996/moran.0496


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr  1 09:30:44 PST 1996
Article: 75175 of alt.censorship
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:10:10 GMT
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	Mc Vays long endeavor is what he implies is a "rudimentary"
presentation to discount that the public is widely under the
assumption that 4,000,000 people died at Auschwitz, with 3,000,000 of
them being Jews. The 536 lines McVay has used here is a sign of how
serious the Holocaust faction views this revision. He tries to say
revisionists were not charged with being anti-Semitic for questioning
the validity of the accounts, when in fact his own page and all the
other Holocaust promotion pages are still referring to them as
"neo-Nazis", "anti-Semites" and "racists" for further questioning
further details of the Holocaust story. He also tries to deny that
revisionists are responsible for the grand reduction of the Auschwitz
numbers, when in fact it wasn't the likes of the Simon Wiesenthal
Center, or Reitlingler, or Hilberg or any other Holocaust story
teller. If it wasn't for revisionist challenges to the story we could
bet the number would still be 4,000,000 people killed at Auschwitz
with 3,000,000 of them being Jewish. He can point to some of the
accounts as proof that the old figures were not presented by some
historians, but he can not show they are even close to a majority and
would not be able to show it was they that were involved in the
reduction, even though we must conclude they were aware that
4,000,000/3,000,000 figure was rampant in the minds of the masses. The
reduction of the Auschwitz numbers is the major first step in the
credibility of the whole story going by the wayside. It is my
experience, that when this Auschwitz reduction is presented to people
they are ready and willing to doubt more. Three million discrepancy is
no small number. It is such a whopper that people are shocked.
	McVay could have presented a number of other "historian"
assertions, like Nora Levin who said up to 2,300,000 Jews died at
Auschwitz or we can look at Yehuda Bauer's 1,500,000 to 3,500,000 Jews
died at Auschwitz. Even here we can see that Bauer's figures are one
number or 2 1/2 times that number. The Holocaust story tosses around
numbers in the millions as if it was nothing.
	A corrupt state of affairs.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr  1 09:57:09 PST 1996
Article: 29308 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran's Forgeries (Re: EVIL GERMAN PEOPLE)
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 14:54:30 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>I see no reason to go around campus, showing Tom Moran's 
>forgeries to people. We have a newsgroup here, and it's
>dedicated to "revisionist" propaganda. Other readers here
>agree that Moran tried to forge the testimonies, by 
>inserting into them sentences the witnesses never said,
>and, moreover, using exactly the same format in which
>the original testimony (and questions) were posted.
>
>It's quite clear that this was a blatant attempt to forge
>the testimonies. Moran is upset at being exposed, that is
>understandable; however, he need not worry - his status
>in the "revisionist" community will only advance, after
>it will become common fact that he is a forger and a liar.

	I just "forged" a few more on "Aushwitz myths and facts". Go
get em.


>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr  1 09:57:11 PST 1996
Article: 29340 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The more plans I see the more rediculous the story.
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 14:30:20 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

     448 lines to counter Moran's post. He doesn't combine it all
together point by point. I will let Mr. Van Alstine have the last word
here without further comment and leave it up to any readers to sort
out the 448 lines as to relevance.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr  1 09:57:11 PST 1996
Article: 29341 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran's Forgeries (Re: EVIL GERMAN PEOPLE)
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 14:52:23 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> Why don't you show it to your students and get their
>> opinion? Pass the whole thing around campus. The original post, my
>> added satire, your accusations and my replys. Take it over to the
>> humanities dept. and have them use it in a class. Go ahead. Do it, 
>> P r o f e s s o r.
>
>I realize that I'm jumping into an unrelated thread, but I HAVE offered 
>the opportunity for you, Mr. Moran, to write a letter to my Writing 102 
>students--I invited you to explain to them how to "read between the 
>lines" of articles written by American Jews who disagree with the Israeli 
>government's actions.  You have not yet responded to that invitation (I 
>believe it appeared under the "Evil Germans" thread).  We're going to 
>begin a unit on rhetorical analysis soon, so your erudite comments on how to 
>read Jews' writing critically would be germane...

	Didn't see this invitation. Where did you put it?


>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr  1 09:57:12 PST 1996
Article: 29342 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BIG BIG QUESTION
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 15:17:28 GMT
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mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>
>>In article <31595bd0.4530214@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>					
>>>	The facts are that the Holocaust story has been considerable
>>>modified in the direction the revisionist stance, which is that it is
>>>99% untrue.
>>>        The BIG BIG QUESTION is: Does anyone know if anything has been
>>>revised in the other direction?
>
>>    Well, Hilberg estimated 5.1 million Jews died in the Holocaust.  Most
>>    historians since him have focused in on a number slightly greater than
>>    that.
>
>	At least gypsies aren't still whining about it 50 years later.  

	High stakes Holocaust. They don't have a benefit from the
Holocaust procedure going on. The gypsies evidentally can stand on
their own independant feet.

>	Of course there was one gypsy objection to the holocaust museum not
>mentioning gypsies save in casual passing and the response was
>something like, "get your own museum."  
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
>          Commentary from the right side of the curve
>Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
> http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
>            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)
>  One finger is all a real American needs to deal with the government.
>It takes a village idiot and other truths children have already learned.
>          
>                       Good luck, Mr. Gorski
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr  1 09:57:13 PST 1996
Article: 29346 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran Does It Again (Re: Photos make Holocau
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 15:24:11 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>
># Now lets get this straight, thousands of people are gassed in
># the building, and then the poisonous residue is ventilated
># into the immediate area of the SS Hospital, Gestapos office, 
># Commodants Office and "Camp Administration"?
>
>My God - you *are* mentally retarded, are you not?
>
>We've been through this, about a month ago. You posted *exactly*
>the same article as you posted here. I answered that there are *still*
>cyanide compounds on the walls of the gas chamber you're talking
>about, proving beyond doubt that cyanide gas was used in it,
>which, of course, proves that the "technical problems in
>ventilating the chamber" etc, were easily overcome. And yet,
>you go and post this rubbish again.
>
>Unbelievable.
>
>Let me give an analogy - not a perfect one, but it may help
>you understand. A car (even more so before catalytic converters
>were being used) releases poison gas. If you'll lock yourself
>in a closed chamber with the exhaust of a car directed into it,
>you'll die rather quickly. But, you can stand in the open, next
>to a few cars with large engines running in high RPM's, and
>nothing will happen to you, right? Can you see the analogy? If
>not, do you understand that the fact that there are cyanide
>compounds on the gas chamber's wall, proves you're wrong?
>

Professor, recall this is not posted for you personally. It is
directed to anyone coming to to investigate the validity of Holocaust
claims. I post, you refute. All you have to do is 'Copy and paste'.
It's easy.

>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr  1 09:57:14 PST 1996
Article: 29347 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The more plans I see the more rediculous the story.
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 15:20:33 GMT
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <315bf35e.2087150@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>>     448 lines to counter Moran's post. He doesn't combine it all
>>together point by point. I will let Mr. Van Alstine have the last word
>>here without further comment and leave it up to any readers to sort
>>out the 448 lines as to relevance.

 Richard Green's personal, "Translation:  Mr. Van Alstine has
completely demolished my argument andI'm hoping that if I don't say
anything too stupid no one will notice. The less I say the less likely
I am to say something stupid."
>-- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green	Department of Chemistry, Stanford CA 94303-5080
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU  http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud
>
>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or 
>prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, 
>or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to 
>petition the government for a redress of grievances.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr  1 09:57:14 PST 1996
Article: 29349 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Capitalizing on the Holocaust?
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 15:45:05 GMT
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	The super saturation of the Holocaust story is;

1. To educated the people on the horrors of hate and prejudice?

2. To extort billions of dollars and support for Israel? 

       Has any group capitalized on the Holocaust story?	





From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr  1 09:57:17 PST 1996
Article: 29377 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 14:46:15 GMT
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	Books out to sell the Holocaust story all follow the same
general path of topics. Naturally they go on about mass gassing and
cremation, and also the acitivities of the Einsatzgruppens, the
preceding "anti-Semitism" and such. They all also give considerable
treatment to establishing a sufficient Jewish population preceding
1939. After all, if they are trying to claim 6 million Jews were put
to death, they have to show that there were enough Jews in the arena
to have been killed.
       Of course fabricators can get themselves into problems when
they carry the accounts too far. Just focusing on one book, say Yehuda
Bauer's, "The History of the Holocaust", we can find in just a short
span, a number of problems. He includes in his version of establishing
a sufficient Jewish population "Table 2.1", "Jewish population
(estimated)". In this table he has three verticle columns:

   Year             Jews in Europe             Total Jews world wide
   1650                700,000                     1,750,000
   1700               1,000,000                    1,250,000
   1750               1,250,000                    2,250,000
   1800               1,500,000                    2,500,000
   1825               2,730,000                    3,281,000
   1840               3,600,000                    4,500,000
   1850               4,127,000                    4,764,500
   1860               5,200,000                    6,000,000
"Source:Arthur Ruppin, Soziologie der Juden (Berlin, 1931), pp. 81,89"


	Right in the beginning we can see the list showing that the
European Jewish population increased 7 1/2 times, from 700,000 to
5,200,000 in just 210 years. In 1650 there were 700,000 in Europe and
1,050,000 else where. In 1860 there were 5,200,000 in Europe and only
800,000 else where. Seems there was a Jewish population explosion in
Europe and a decline elsewhere. Or there was the explosion in Europe
and many of those elsewhere migrated to Europe. Whichever, the source
doesn't say.
	Anyway it seems that Bauer's list has Jewish population
expanding at an incredible rate between 1650 and 1860, where between
1800 and 1825 alone the "estimated" Jewish population almost doubled
>from  1,500,000 to 2,730,000 in the 25 year period, all this increase
taking place during a time when the average life expectancy of man was
about 50 some years, further stressed by wars, famines and plagues,
and the Jews undergoing "massive progroms".
	One has to wonder how these "estimated" figures for dates from
1650 to 1860 would have been compiled in 1931. Especially since those
dates were times when communications and census capacities were
extremely low. If in fact there is such a book as the one cited as the
source, we would have to view the whole line of recogning offered in
the book to determine if the statistics aren't just founded on wishful
thinking.
	("Argumentum ad ignorantum: An argument purporting to
demonstrate a point or to persuade people, which avails itself of
facts and reasons the falsity or inadequacy of which is not readily
diserned.")
	  
	By the early 20th Century Bauer, using a map from map happy
Gilbert, has the Jewish population up to 8,700,000 in Europe and
11,487,000 world wide.
	Its obvious that Holocaust books give consider effort to
establishing Jewish populations in order to show that there were
enough Jews in Europe to be killed and add up to 6,000,000.  Without
such treatment the story would be more stressed than it is on other
fronts.
	As usual, in their blantant tossing around of terms and
numbers, they include something that further throws suspicions on
their claims, and in this case Bauer offers us a map from Gilbert:

	"Some early records of Jewish town life in Europe before
1600":
that has to resort to listing the most obscure events to show that
Jews were even present in Europe. For Cologne 960 , it has "The local
Jews send a letter to Palestine asking for verification of a rumor
that a Messiah had come", not meaning Jesus Christ we can assume. In
Brussel 1310, "A Jewish scribe completes a fine illuminated
manuscript". In Munich 1228, "A Jew appears in court as a witness
during a trial", and 1173 at Wroclawek "Local coins discovered with
Hebrew inscriptions". So it seems it is necessary to pick up on wee
fragments of evidence to even show Jews existed in Europe by 1300 or
so. Given the Jewish penchant to seek out and hold anything Jewish,
this hardly seems like sufficient history to support the 700,000
Jewish population said to have been in existance by 1650.   	
	We might even want to consider the stories about millions of
Jews fleeing into the Soviet Union, which is said to already have had
a sizable Jewish population during WWII, and then ending up at only
about 2,500,000 or so by 1980. No problem here for Bauer's numbers
since he has about a million of them migrating to the U.S. at the end
of the 19th Century which would put the WWII population of Jews in the
U.S.S.R. low enough to accept the millions said to have fled the Nazis
and still be able to arrive at the numbers in recent times.
       Whatever happened to those million or so Russian Jews said to
have migrated to the U.S. at the end of the 19th century we can only
wonder, since if there was a million here by that time we would expect
millions more here and now in 1996, which there aren't to this day.
	Exaggerations, thorough fabrications - lies. Thats this aspect
of the Holocaust story, as with the rest. 	



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr  1 09:57:19 PST 1996
Article: 29399 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Magic Wand - deus ex machina
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 14:19:56 GMT
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <31594cbb.669590@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>	Lately Moran has mustered up a phrase that for the most part
>>could be related to a magic wand, or a hat full of tricks. The phrase
>>spelling so far has been either "dios ex machina" or "deos ex
>>machina", both wrong. Apologies. Though having long known the phrase,
>>coming across it through crossword puzzles, I never made use of it in
>>writing, thus the exact spelling eluded my memory.
>
>    It must be fun doing those crossword puzzles without worrying about
>    spelling words correctly.
>
>>	Pondering the idea of deus ex machina leads to pondering
>>another related principle:
>> 
>>                 Argumentum ad ignorantum:
>>     "An argument purporting to demonstrate a point or to persuade
>>people, which avails itself of facts and reasons the falsity or
>>inadequacy of which is not readily discerned;(or available for
>>validation), a misleading argument used in reliance on peoples
>>ignorance", (or inability to access any referrences cited as showing
>>proof).
>
>    The best example of this I can think of is Tommy's recent post of an
>    IHR Pamphlet claiming the 4,000,000 number for Auschwitz was recently
>    revised by the conventional historical community.  That pamphlet, as
>    Mike Stien pointed out in his rebuttle to it, is made up of half
>    truths, misstatements, and unsupportable assertions.  It is a perfect
>    example of argumentum ad ignorantum.

	Moran posted IHR pamphlet? Where? Here now. Show your stuff.
Post a step by step critique of the material in question, instead of
just making a blank statement.

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                Quoth the Raven: "Morantus est ignorantus"



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr  1 09:57:22 PST 1996
Article: 29453 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz myths and facts
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 14:45:55 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of Stanislawa Starotska 
>[Quoted in "The Belsen Trial" - Edited by R. Phillips, William Hodge and
>Company, 1949, page numbers follow]
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>p. 418:
>
>Q. How was the Appell [roll-call] for selection for the gas chamber run?
>
>A. The doctor was present and he chose weak and sick people instead of
>   healthy ones. My part was exactly the same as during the other 
>   parades. I had to keep order and see that everything was all right.
>   I never helped the staff of the concentration camp during the 
>   selection for the gas chamebrs.
>
>p. 421:
>
>Q. How did the SS behave towards the prisoners at Auschwitz?
>
>A. The prisoners in Auschwitz were treated very badly, and beaten on 
>   every occasion. They had to work very hard, the accomodation was 
>   very bad, they had lice and other diseases, and dogs were set on 
>   them. Almost all the Blockfuehrer [block leader] in the camp carried 
>   sticks which they used, and some of the Aufseherinnen [wardresses] 
>   has sticks, some cellophane whips, and others dogs. Some had nothing.

	Well, this seems like it could be true to some extent. Photos
of prisoners being marched along show Sonderkommanda and Germans
keeping order with dogs and some had sticks.
> .
> .
> .
>
>Q. When these Jews began to realize that they were being selected for
>   the gas chamber did a lot of people begin to try and run away and
>   get hysterical?


	How did they know when it is said the whole thing was set up
to keep the prisoners from knowing until the last minute. But then
again, "everyone" knew.

>A. Some of them tried to run away and others tried to hide themselves,
>   or tried to avoid being examined by the doctors. Those who tried to
>   run away or hide were brought back again to the same place and
>   sometimes were beaten.

	Too bad there isn't more detail and request for detail.
Perhaps pressing for details, as is so often practiced in court
trials, would just leave more room for contradiction. 

>p. 422:
>
>Q. You say that sometimes the factories sent some prisoners back again
>   who were completely exhausted from work. I suppose it was only a 
>   question of time before these people found their way into the gas
>   chamber?
>
>A. It was not even a question of time; they were sent direct from the
>   platform to the gas chamber.

	"Platform". It would seem that people working in a particular
capacity would develope some skills at it and the Germans wouldn't
want to waste the time training new people to any particular task. 

>p. 423:
>
>Q. When the prisoners were being marched past the doctor, did you stand
>   behind him taking the numbers or did you go round the parade and 
>   take the numbers afterwards?
>
>A. Prisoners marched past the doctor and then he would point out one of
>   those wretched people and say "that man can be taken to the gas 
>   chamber". At that moment the Blockfuehrer would take the man and
>   bring him to the left side and tell me to write down the number as
>   he was for the gas chamber.

	Its clear from the citation at the top that the transcripts
were "edited" and we are not informed as to whether the questioner is
undergoing questioning from a prosecutor or a defense attorney, if
there was any. Almost all of the testimonies seem more like
confessions than anything else. 

>
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr  1 09:57:22 PST 1996
Article: 29454 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos - Enemies of the myth.
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 14:46:25 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 33
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>In article <315ab992.2268677@news.pacificnet.net>,
>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>	
>>	Of all the hundreds and hundreds of photographs, perhaps unto
>>a thousand and more, there exist not one that can validify the
>>Holocaust myths. In fact they tend to deny it more than being able to
>>confirm it.
>>
>>	Most Holcoaust books will give us a few photos, and we should
>>assume if they had anything of any consequence that could prove the
>>myth they would be included, featured, raved about, fingers pointing
>>with eager tremble, plastered on bill boards, shown on TV, in
>>magazines and the news papers, permanent fixtures in the class rooms,
>>enlarged to mural scope in the museums, presented on websites with
>>great fanfare and advertisement - but alas there are none. 
>
>
>Who says they are not and haven't been? Got anything to support this spittle 
>from your keyboard?

	Yes. An invitation to the reader to check it out for his or
her self.

>Mike Curtis
>
>--Hatred, n. A sentiment appropriate to the occasion of another's superiority.
>                                                         --Ambrose Bierc
	Violence against revisionism is an act of hatred?

						



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr  1 09:57:24 PST 1996
Article: 29472 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE - Ask Your Friends
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 15:09:46 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>>
>>  >Actually, stuff goes on the screen, is thoroughly refuted, and then
>>  >goes on again as soon as Moran thinks we've forgotten about it.
>>  
>>  	Where is that?
>>  
>>>>>
>	Here.

	"Here"?  You mean right here? Where is that? This thread? This
group? This article? I'm going to have to call "Rachelle" and ask her.
You did say she has read my posts, didn't you? 

>	--YFE



From chuckf@rio.com Mon Apr  1 23:02:42 PST 1996
Article: 29510 of alt.revisionism
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From: Chuck Ferree 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Capitalizing on the Holocaust?
Date: 31 Mar 1996 22:21:49 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>	The super saturation of the Holocaust story is;
>
>1. To educated the people on the horrors of hate and prejudice?
>
>2. To extort billions of dollars and support for Israel? 
>
>       Has any group capitalized on the Holocaust story?	

How do you interpret "capitolization?" Are all the books written by 
"revisionist scholors" done out of altruisim?
Do the "deniers" who speak of their version of the Holocaust for a fee, 
behaving like capitolists?
Writers, historians, film makers and much of the media use the Holocaust 
one way or another. But what are their motives? 
Liars, and others who twist the truth about the Holocaust, for whatever 
reason especially if they make a buck in the process are the real 
villans.
Chuck Ferree

>
>
>




From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr  3 11:11:09 PST 1996
Article: 29767 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz myths and facts
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 14:46:00 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>
>Kurt Prufer, senior engineer of Topf and Sohne, testifying in Erfurt,
>Germany, March 5, 1946
>[Quoted from the interrogation transcripts by Prof. Gerald Fleming
>from the University of Surrey, in an NYT article, July 18 1993]
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Q. Who apart from you participated in the construction of the furnaces?
> 
>A. From 1941-2, I constructed the furnaces. The technical drawings were
>   done by Mr. Keller. The ventilation systems of the "Kremas" 
>   [crematoriums] were constructed by senior engineer Karl Schultze.
> 
>Q. How often and with what aim did you visit Auschwitz?
> 
>A. Five times. The first time at the beginning of 1943, to receive orders
>   of the SS Command where the Kremas were to be built. The second time in
>   spring 1943 to inspect the building site. The third time was in autumn
>   1943 to inspect a fault in the construction of a Krema chimney. The
>   forth time at the beginning of 1944, to inspect the repaired chimney. the
>   fifth time in September-October 1944, when I visited Auschwitz with the
>   intended relocation [from Auschwitz] of the crematoriums, since the
>   front was getting nearer. The crematoriums were not relocated, because 
>   there were not enough workers.

	This sounds reasonable and fits in with Pressac's collection
of data to tell his story, excluding any interpretation or expansions
he may have committed.

>Q. Were you the sole Topf engineer in Auschwitz in spring 1943?
> 
>A. No, [senior engineer Karl] Schultze was with me in Auschwitz at the time.
>   I saw personally about 60 corpses of women and men of different ages,
>   which were being prepared for incineration.  That was at 10 in the 
>   morning. I witnessed the incineration of six corpses and and came to the
>   conclusion that the furnaces were working well.


	Here the question was whether or not he was the sole engineer
and he goes on to expand on an account of cremations. Evidentally this
trial was not really a trial in the usual frame.
 
>Q. Did you see a gas chamber next to the crematoriums?
> 
>A. Yes, I did see one next to the crematorium. Between the gas chamber and
>   the crematorium there was a connecting structure.

	He "did see one" and 'Oh yes' there was a connecting
structure.

 
>Q. Did you know that in the gas chamber and in the crematoriums there took
>   place the liquidation of innocent human beings?
> 
>A. I have known since spring 1943 that innocent human beings were being
>   liquidated in Auschwitz gas chambers and that their corpses were 
>   subsequently incinerated in the crematoriums.

	This is a, yes.
 
>Q. Who is the designer of the ventilation systems for the gas chambers?
> 
>A. Schultze was the designer of the ventilation systems in the gas chambers;
>   and he installed them.
> 
>Q. Why was the brick lining of the muffles so quickly damaged?
> 
>A. The bricks were damaged after six months because the strain on the
>   furnaces was colossal.


	Now was this on his visit sometime around 1943 or when the
Soviets were bearing down in 1944? It doesn't say. In most trials care
is taken to keep track of the details, times and such, but there is
none of this in Holocaust story testimony.
>
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr  6 07:59:25 PST 1996
Article: 30008 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz myths and facts
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 14:46:04 GMT
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mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>
>>Kurt Prufer, senior engineer of Topf and Sohne, testifying in Erfurt,
>>Germany, March 5, 1946
>>[Quoted from the interrogation transcripts by Prof. Gerald Fleming
>>from the University of Surrey, in an NYT article, July 18 1993]
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Q. Who apart from you participated in the construction of the furnaces?
>> 
>>A. From 1941-2, I constructed the furnaces. The technical drawings were
>>   done by Mr. Keller. The ventilation systems of the "Kremas" 
>>   [crematoriums] were constructed by senior engineer Karl Schultze.
>> 
>>Q. How often and with what aim did you visit Auschwitz?
>> 
>>A. Five times. The first time at the beginning of 1943, to receive orders
>>   of the SS Command where the Kremas were to be built. The second time in
>>   spring 1943 to inspect the building site. The third time was in autumn
>>   1943 to inspect a fault in the construction of a Krema chimney. The
>>   forth time at the beginning of 1944, to inspect the repaired chimney. the
>>   fifth time in September-October 1944, when I visited Auschwitz with the
>>   intended relocation [from Auschwitz] of the crematoriums, since the
>>   front was getting nearer. The crematoriums were not relocated, because 
>>   there were not enough workers.
>> 
>>Q. Were you the sole Topf engineer in Auschwitz in spring 1943?
>> 
>>A. No, [senior engineer Karl] Schultze was with me in Auschwitz at the time.
>>   I saw personally about 60 corpses of women and men of different ages,
>>   which were being prepared for incineration.  That was at 10 in the 
>>   morning. I witnessed the incineration of six corpses and and came to the
>>   conclusion that the furnaces were working well.
>> 
>>Q. Did you see a gas chamber next to the crematoriums?
>> 
>>A. Yes, I did see one next to the crematorium. Between the gas chamber and
>>   the crematorium there was a connecting structure.
>
>	What happened to the claim they were underground?  
> 
	This would be assuming the Kremas he is talking about are
identified exactly. As we can see from what is here at least, there is
no exact krema cited nor is any ask for. So we don't know what year he
is talking about in relation to some of the testimony and we don't
know what building. Now is this anyway to conduct a trial?


>---------------------------------------------------------------
>              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
>          Commentary from the right side of the curve
>Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
> http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
>            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)
>  One finger is all a real American needs to deal with the government.
>It takes a village idiot and other truths children have already learned.
>          
>                       Good luck, Mr. Gorski
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr  6 07:59:25 PST 1996
Article: 30011 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz myths and facts
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 14:46:10 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 31
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>
>mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>## Kurt Prufer, senior engineer of Topf and Sohne, testifying in Erfurt,
>## Germany, March 5, 1946
>
>## Q. Did you see a gas chamber next to the crematoriums?
>## 
>## A. Yes, I did see one next to the crematorium. Between the gas chamber and
>##  the crematorium there was a connecting structure.
>
># What happened to the claim they were underground?  
>
>Nothing happened to that claim. 
>
>Tell us what you don't understand.

	You see, Giwer, not even Prof. Keren knows what year or what
building the testimony is referring to.

>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr  8 06:55:34 PDT 1996
Article: 30130 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 50,000,000 "ordinary" Germans
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 14:18:23 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Giwer has beat me to a follow up that I didn't want to include
right away in order not to extend the original post out too much.
	He points out that the claimed figures of 100,000, 5 X
100,000, 330,000, 8,000,000 or 50,000,000 Germans who were directly
involved in the Holocaust is a contradiction to the idea that it was
all a big secret.
	
	Three hundred thousand, 8 million or 50 million Germans
directly involved? Just another example of a chutzpah tactic: Make
grossly exaggerated claims. 'Spit in their face.'


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr  8 06:55:38 PDT 1996
Article: 30205 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jewish Holocaust - 99.999 % of the story
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 14:36:23 GMT
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	I see after a couple of days off, that the topic of who were
the victims of the Holocaust has popped up.
	I see there is a bit of denial that the focus of the story is
on Jews. 
	Of course the world knows and thinks of it as a Jewish
Holocaust. Jews are the main element of the whole story.
	I am glad to see the denials. There is probably nothing more
readily documented than the fixation on and by Jews as victims in the
Holocaust story.

	"Hitlers War Against the Jews" or "The Destruction of the
European Jewery" for a couple, along with a myriad of the fixations
that have appeared in our and or on our medias.

	6,000,000 is the ready figure in the peoples heads as to
numbers of victims. 6,000,000 is the number. The number that appears
99.999% of the time. 
	6,000,000 Jews that is.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr  8 17:10:17 PDT 1996
Article: 30259 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE - Ask Your Friends
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 13:24:39 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <31594c2a.524259@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
>> Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
>> give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
>> 
>>                             --------
>>         
>> "For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
>> at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
>> former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
>> Shouldn't the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
>> are much lower than previously thought?"
>> 
>> *("well over" meaning 4 million)
>> 
>> The center then goes into a paragraph about how it was an
>> "invention" of the communist government of Poland and the U.S.S.R.,
>> "to blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering", that they "purposely
>> overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at Auschwitz-Birkenau
>> by many times" and in order to "disguise the subterfuge" ... "the
>> figures for Jewish losses were inflated by nearly double, so that
>> their losses would still be larger than those of non-Jewish victims".
>>        
>> Instead of trying to figure this out at this time we can just
>> go on to the motive behind this rather confusing logic.
>> 
>> "The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the Holocaust
>> has always been in line with the lower Auschwitz figures."
>
>Here, we have yet another brazen example of "lying by ommission" and
>taking what was said out of context for the purpose of malicious
>distortion. Such purile tactics are the stock-in-trade of Holocuast
>deniers, of which Moran is one. The full passgae, in context, from the
>center's "Responses to Revisionist Arguments" page (URL:
>http://www.wiesenthal.com/resource/revision.htm#13) is:
>
>"13. For years, the death statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put at well
>over 3 million. Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the former death camp
>estimates Jewish losses closer to 1 million. Shouldn't the new figures
>imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust are much lower than previously
>thought? 
>
>   "The figure of 3-4 million murdered at Auschwitz-Birkenau was an invention 
>   of communist officials in Poland (and the former U.S.S.R.) which sought 
>   to blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering at Auschwitz. To do this, 
>   they purposely overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at 
>   Auschwitz-Birkenau by many times their true numbers. In a clever attempt 
>   to disguise the subterfuge, the figures for Jewish losses were inflated 
>   by nearly double, so that their losses would still be larger than those 
>   of non-Jewish victims,though now by a much smaller ratio. With the end of 
>   communism in Poland and the former Soviet Union, officials at the Auschwitz 
>   museum finally lowered the casualty figures in line with the estimates of 
>   historians who, for years, have insisted that between one and 1 1/2 million 
>   people perished at Auschwitz-Birkenau, 80 - 90% of them Jews.
>
>   "The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the Holocaust has always been 
>   in line with the lower Auschwitz figures.
>
>As can be seen, Moran's implication that "[f]or years, the death
>statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put at well over 3 million..."
>was the position of the Center is a shallow-minded canard. The truth, of
>course, is that Center framed this as _question_ (question #13) in
>attributing the claims by deniers who assert that the discrepancy between
>erroneous death toll at Auschwitz-Birkenau by the former Polish and Soviet
>governments, and the historically accepted death toll described by the
>plaque, somehow means that the death toll of the Holocaust was somehow
>significantly revised downwards. 
>
>Of course, as the Center illustrates, it never was. 
>
>> Now recalling the Wiesenthal Center's claim that the overall
>> 6,000,000 number of Jews never was based on a higher figure at
>> Auschwitz and thus is still 6,000,000, after the revision of 4,000,000
>> down to 1,000,000, we can review the contradictory listing below to
>> see if they are telling the truth or are in fact committing a
>> blasphemy against the truth and are insulting the reader.
>
>Here we see Moran, using his misrepresentation of what the Center said as
>a strawman argument, maliciously distorts the assertions of the Center.
>Conveintantly ignored is that historians, for decades, have come to
>agreement that the death toll at Auschwitz-Birkenau was between 1-1.5
>million (80-90% Jews) and the Jewish death toll of the Holocaust,
>including the deaths at Auschwitz, was around 6 million. 
>
>[snip]

	I didn't bother to see what you have snipped here, but I think
it is the long list of other accounts that claim up to 5,000,000 Jews
were killed at Auschwitz, which was included to show that the Simon
Wiesenthal Center is a liar. Is that what was "snipped" here?
	No wonder the anti-denier didn't make any comment on it.
Instead he snips and runs off to Dr. Piper. 


>> So, even though the Simon Wiesenthal Center claims the
>> 6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "has always been in line with
>> the lower figures" it is obvious that there is some recorded evidence
>> to show this statement to be down right false, since they clearly cite
>> anywhere from 2,000,000 to 3,500,000 Jews killed at Auschwitz, which
>> would make the 6,000,000 figure considerably lower if we used those
>> numbers instead of the newer currently accepted number of 1,000,000
>> Jews.
>
>Again, convientantly ignored, is any mention of Dr. Piper's exhaustive
>estimate, begun in 1980 and completed in 1986, for the number murdered at
>Auschwitz, which was (at least) 1.1 million. It was, in great part, Dr.
>Piper's estimate that was used by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum's
>1990 reassesment of the Museum's official estimate to 1.1 million. An
>estimate that historians and Holocaust researchers are in agreement with.
>As is the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
>
>> This poster has over the years witnessed many times...
>
>And _this_ poster has witnessed, over the months, that Moran has been
>quite liberal with his lies and innuendo. Especially when it regards Jews
>in general, the numbers of Jews murdered in the Holocaust, the historical
>veracity of the Holocaust, and the fact that Auschwitz was an
>extermination camp that murdered people in gas chambers with Zyklon B and
>incinerated their bodies. 
>
>[snip]
>
>> In lieu of the evidence we should ask: If the Simon Wiesenthal
>> Center claims the 6,000,000 number was never contingent on the
>> pre-revised number why didn't they make an attempt at setting the
>> record straight?  
>
>But, as Moran knows full-well knows, that is _exactly_ what the Center was
>doing in question #13! Why else would he lie, distort, and fabricate about
>what the Center said in question #13 in order to "prove" the Simon
>Wiesenthal Center was doing otherwise? Evidently he must feel the
>neccessity to slander the Simon Wiesenthal Center because their refutation
>completely demolishes the deniers' patently false and misleading claims! 
>
>> It cannot be shown that the Holocaust perpetuators were the
>> initiating force behind this huge revision and others, but in fact
>> struggled energetically to keep it from happening. 
>
>Considering the Herculean efforts of historians and Holocaust researchers,
>such as Dr. Piper, and the desire of the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum
>to officially reflect the historically accepted estimates for the death
>toll at the Auschwitz extermination camp, it CAN be shown that Moran's
>absurd claim is exposed for the pathetic lie that it is! 
>
>
>> It could also be suggested that if it was not for revisionist energy the 
>> Holocaust beneficiaries would have let the old figures stay as they were.
>
>It could also be suggested, given the above, that this is nothing more
>than yet another self-serving denier lie. 
>
>>  Behold the Lie - Ask Your Friends
>
>Behold the Liar - Read a Moranic(tm) post by Moran!
>
>
>Mark
>
>
>posted/e-mailed
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr  9 10:33:40 PDT 1996
Article: 30333 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Ken Mcvay: Professional Liar
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 13:29:47 GMT
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bn857@freenet.toronto.on.ca (Milton Kleim) wrote:

>
>Need anything more be said?

	Yes. I have problem with the word "Professional". 'Childlike'
would be a more accurate term. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr  9 10:33:40 PDT 1996
Article: 30336 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 13:22:15 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <316912b8.1253608@news.pacificnet.net>
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dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <316686f4.1834879@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>> 
>>	Any way, Mittleman, now that you have clarified the article,
>>and tried to divert the focus away from the original topic:
>>	Can you come up with just 1/2% of the 10,000 extermination
>>("destroying") camps Goldhagen claims? Now this is very fair. I could
>>very well, and justifiablly ask for the whole "10,000".	Just 1/2%. Is
>>that so hard? Out of the "10,000"? Seems so. 
>
>    Nope, I can't.  I haven't read Goldhagen's book yet.  When I read it I
>    will see what kind of support he has for his claims.  I believe Marty
>    Kelly is reading it now, so he may have an answer for you before I do. 
>    personally, without notes in ront of me I can only name the five or
>    sixmost famous camps.  of course, that doesn't mean hundreds or
>    thousands of others didn't exist.
>
>    By the way, I am in Los Angeles all week this week on a business trip. 
>    I am thinking of going to see the Museum of Tolerance.  Are you
>    interested in going to see it with me, Tommy?
>

	Yes. E-mail me right away.

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                   Quoth the Raven: "Never happened."



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr  9 12:57:17 PDT 1996
Article: 30342 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Holocaust - 99.999 % of the story
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 13:24:30 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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Message-ID: <31691389.1462597@news.pacificnet.net>
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dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <3167cfd5.1742111@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>> 
>>	6,000,000 is the ready figure in the peoples heads as to
>>numbers of victims. 6,000,000 is the number. The number that appears
>>99.999% of the time. 
>>	6,000,000 Jews that is.  
>
>    Funny thing Tommy, Nizkor doesn't lead with that figure.  The first
>    place I saw it at Nizkor was when they were addressing a question from
>    a denier who used that number.  The US Holocaust Museum doesn't lead
>    with that number.  They talk about the many million who were killed
>    without focusing on a specific number.
>
>    Would you like to visit the Museum of Tolerance at the SWC with me to
>    see what they say?


	Incredible. 

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                   Quoth the Raven: "Never happened."



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 10 14:11:39 PDT 1996
Article: 30456 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:10:40 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   Marty Kelley  writes:
>>
>>  
>>  So, 1/2 of 1% of 10,000 camps?  Sure, I could probably come up with the 
>>  names of 50 camps pretty quickly; I'll look in the library tomorrow.  
>>
>>>>>
>	It might also vary with how you define "camps."  Many of the "camps" 
>were actually a complex of different camps.  One source I recently read (Sacher; 
>"Redemption of the Unwanted") states that Malthusan was actually a compelx of 
>150 sub-camps.

	Okay, now we have "how you define 'camps'". In this case a
place unto itself, within it's own, not part of another such as a camp
site at at a camp ground. Not a "sub-camp".  

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 10 14:11:40 PDT 1996
Article: 30463 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: T. Moran is a fool, so says ... everyone
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:40:45 GMT
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4kcunm$pek@wi.combase.com>, mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>> 
>>>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>>>  
>>>>  	On April 6, Moran posted the immediate below in relation to a
>>>>  currently hot topic on alt.revisionism as to the obsessive focus on
>>>>  the Jews as being victims during the "Holocaust".
>>>>  
>>>	The only people who seemed obsessed by it are you and your peers 
>>>whose hatred of Jews is so great that you are moved to to question that which 
>>>no knowlegable person can or does question.  Specifically that millions of Jew 
>>>were murdered by the nazis during WWII.  I have never heard a revisionazi, you 
>>>for example, question the murder of the Romany or the millions of non-Jewish 
>>>Russians who were also murdered.
>> 
>>>>  
>>>#  Danny Mittleman  responded:  
>> 
>>	Did Mittleman die and appoint you his spokesrat?  Do you think he can
>>not handle his own discussions?  
>> 
>
>
>    Yale has accurately represented me in his response.  As I am travelling
>    this week and have limited access to usenet, I welcome his
>    intervention.
>
>    danny

	Mr. Mittleman, even though he is traveling and has "limited
access" sure is getting through. He could have just as well responded
instead of what is put here. 
	I think it is hillariously idiotic. On the one hand you have
these Holocaust promoters raving at anyone who questions the 6,000,000
and then you have them out here saying the 6,000,000 figure is not
commonly recognized. Even though the focus of the Holocaust promotion
is on Jews, and has a myriad of documentation they will tell you it
isn't so. They think they can just say whatever absurdity comes into
the little ethnocentric ego.
	We can take note of Goldhagen's own statement as to victims,
where he specifies "Jews and non-Jews". Why wouldn't he just say
'persons', 'victims', 'lives' or whatever?


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 10 14:11:41 PDT 1996
Article: 30468 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson's 'Historical Research'
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:01:26 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>      Summary: A "leading revisionist scholar" in action;
>       Faurisson's extreme dishonesty and deceitfulness
>      ---------------------------------------------------
>
>Robert Faurisson is considered by Holocaust-deniers as, perhaps,
>the "leading revisionist" worldwide (he used to share this title
>with David Irving, but now that Irving stated that 4 million Jews
>died in the Holocaust, his status in the "revisionist" community
>is not that clear).
>
>A truly astounding examples of Faurisson's tactic of lies and
>deceit is demonstrated in his piece titled "The 'Problem of the 
>Gas Chambers'", posted here by the tireless Marc Lemire.
>
>In this piece, Faurisson "surveys" the gas chambers in the
>various camps, and tries to "prove" there is not sufficient
>evidence that they existed. 
>
>On two of the worst death camps, Treblinka and Belzec, Faurisson
>writes:
>
># For proof that the "gas chambers" in Belzec or Treblinka really
># existed, one is asked to rely essentially upon the statement of 
># Kurt Gerstein.
>
>That's about it; Faurisson goes on to state that Gerstein's
>testimony cannot be trusted. But that's not the point.
>
>Who was Kurt Gerstein? He was an SS-officer, who saw Belzec and
>Treblinka just one time. He wasn't stationed in them. He visited
>them once, and saw a gassing operation. His testimony is accurate
>on the whole, although it is definitely emotional; also, he 
>overestimated the number of people who were pushed into a single 
>gas chamber. 
>
>So what does "leading revisionist" Faurisson do? Very simple. He
>"forgets" all other evidence to what happened in these camps:
>documents, physical remains, and numerous other testimonies, for
>instance those given by SS-men who served in these camps for a
>long time and, of course, provided a far more accurate and detailed
>picture than Gerstein. SS-men like Stangl, who commanded Treblinka;
>Franz, his deputy; and others (Mentz, Matthes, Lambert, Oberhauser,
>Suchomel, Horn, etc).

	Professor, in all seriousness, can you posts the statements by
Gerstein, Stangl, Franz and a couple of others so we can get a
overview? Or, are these testimonies readily available to the public?
	

>By not mentioning all these witnesses, and focusing on Gerstein,
>Faurisson is being extremely dishonest. First, he is lying when
>he states that "one is asked to rely essentially upon the statement 
>of Kurt Gerstein"; there is a far greater body of evidence. Second,
>not only does Faurisson mention only one witness among many, he
>also - intentionally, obviously - chooses one that saw the camps
>only once and, as a result, gave a testimony which is less accurate
>than the testimony of those who spent a lot of time in the camps.
>
>Faurisson's work is not "historical research". It is a miserable
>collection of outright lies, omissions, and misinterpretations,
>of which the above is a spectacular, but in no way unique,
>example.

	You say there is more? Could you cite some of these?

>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 10 16:36:03 PDT 1996
Article: 30510 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:05:44 GMT
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <316a7397.6836954@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:

	Because some of Mr. Green's above replys are mostly emotional
outbursts, I have deleted the most evident ones from any comment. I
was inclined to just let Mr. Green have his response and let it lie
since it was self evident that it lacks a certain dignity and
substance.
	Any spelling mistakes within Mr. Green's text are his.
	
I.	 
Moran:	I personally never heard of spectroscopic studies being used
to determine quantity values, though we may note that any band showing
up under spectroscopic analysis could show up as more intense than
other samples, but it's hard to imagine it being used to give fine
quantitative readings. 

>Mr. Green: That's because you're very ignorant of science.  Spectroscopy can be
>used quantitatively, but as you note the decided to use a more precise
>method than the rudimentary spectrometer taht they appeared to have
>available to them.

Moran: The name of the spectrophotometer was stated in the report and
is included in the initiating post. Whether or not it is
"rudimentary", I don't know. Either way, as pointed out, they
disgarded whatever results they got.

                         ------------------------
II. 
Moran:	Maybe it could be shown that brick does not "absorb" cyanide
compounds but the main term used is "binding". Certainly if someone
suggests the walls were painted with the Prussian Blue, and Prussian
blue does come in a paint format, they would have to admit it has some
binding agency. 

>Mr. Green: The use of the term binding here refers to the ability of HCN to be
>converted to metal-CN complexes such as Prussian Blue.

Moran: Notice where I say "main term". Mr. Green has taken it to mean
it applies to the points at hand. The term "binding" is used
throughout the report, even when stating test HCN binded with plaster.
Of course any kind of sticking "binding" or whatever have the ultimate
cohesion taking place at the atomic level. Call it what we may, but we
will not call it "absorb", which is one of the points in the post. 
 
                         ------------------
III. 
Moran:	This statement with it's lengthy un-necessary expansion on CO2
exhale was probably written by Ken McVay of Nizkor.

>Mr. Green: Care to provide some evidence for this blatent lie?

Moran: "Lie"? I believe it says "probably". Maybe it was Mr.Green who
wrote the "introduced" material.

                           --------------------
IV.
Moran:	As we can see from the tests, the agent HCN does not fair well
under time and weather. Even after a limited flushing with distilled
water and a months time, 100% of the agent can disappear.
	So how do we explain the finding of any HCN after all these
years and 100 feet of acid rain? We don't. No HCN was found, as is
clear from the report. Only cyanide "compounds", "groups" or "ions"
were detected.

>Mr. Green: Reread their detction method little Tommy.  Do you know what a cyanide
>ion is little Tommy?

Moran: Yes.

                            -------------------
V.
Moran:	Cyanide compounds are found naturally. Carbon and Nitrogen are
relatively common elements that have a wide range of easy combinant
capablities with other elements and each other. Cyanide compounds can
be found under a list of organic molecules. They can be organic
constituants of life, and are in fact even produced by organic
processes, such as fair amounts are found in cherry pits.

>Mr.Green: What were the background background levels detected in barracks?  Why
>were they substantially different than in the chamcbers?  Hmm?

Moran: "Background levels"? I don't know. They didn't say. I imagine
you might mean "background levels" to mean some tests on the general
area for cyanide compounds and then to see if any from the "chambers"
were higher or lower in relation? Good idea. ? Would this be
technically feasible, what with the readings coming in at .00018 of a
gram. Not much of an edge to go by. As stated, no "background levels"
were discussed. Maybe you should point out where they were, if this is
what you are saying.
 
                           _________________
VI.
Moran:	As far as the Leuchter Report or the Polish report are
concerned, including the paragraphs with the "revisionist" word, none
of it is sufficient to deny or confirm any part of the Holocaust
story. 

>Mr. Green: This report is sufficient to demonstrate that the homicidal gas chambers
>contain cyanide in excess of background levels. 

Moran: "Background levels" again? 

	Well, it seems if the definition of background levels is
correct, that Mr. Green admits or accepts that there would be levels
of CN compounds not associated with any gassing.
	Either way, the report does not cover taking any "background
levels", nor does it engage in any comparisons between CN compound
amounts in samples and those found in a composite average from the
general surroundings.  


>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>-- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green	Department of Chemistry, Stanford CA 94303-5080
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU  http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud
>
>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or 
>prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, 
>or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to 
>petition the government for a redress of grievances.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 10 18:30:28 PDT 1996
Article: 30522 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:14:11 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 26
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mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>   Marty Kelley  writes:
>>>
>>>  
>>>  So, 1/2 of 1% of 10,000 camps?  Sure, I could probably come up with the 
>>>  names of 50 camps pretty quickly; I'll look in the library tomorrow.  
>>>
>>>>>>
>>	It might also vary with how you define "camps."  Many of the "camps" 
>>were actually a complex of different camps.  One source I recently read (Sacher; 
>>"Redemption of the Unwanted") states that Malthusan was actually a compelx of 
>>150 sub-camps.
>
>	It sounds like we are ready to start discussing the men's and women's
>"camps" within the Birkenau camp.  Are you ready? 

	Yeah. The piles of chutzpah are starting to accumulate
already. 
>-------------------
>
>6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 11 00:10:35 PDT 1996
Article: 30554 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Evil Little German Babies
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 13:18:26 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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Message-ID: <316a61e7.2309376@news.pacificnet.net>
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	Goldhagen's book alleging the German people in general are
evil and willingly assisted the "Holocaust" could be the catalyst for
revisionism in Germany. How long are they going to take being hammered
endlessly by the Jews.
	Then with A.M.Rosenthal's escalating it into 50,000,000, whoa.
Evidentally even granmas and granpas, babies and other little kids
were in on it. Evil, evil little German babies.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 11 09:21:32 PDT 1996
Article: 30610 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:23:28 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 28
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>  
>>
>>  >	It might also vary with how you define "camps."  Many of the "camps" 
>>  >were actually a complex of different camps.  One source I recently read 
>(Sacher; 
>>  >"Redemption of the Unwanted") states that Malthusan was actually a compelx 
>of 
>>  >150 sub-camps.
>>  
>>  	Okay, now we have "how you define 'camps'". In this case a
>>  place unto itself, within it's own, not part of another such as a camp
>>  site at at a camp ground. Not a "sub-camp".  
>>  
>>>>>
>	No the question is how Goldhagen defined "camps."  You have yet to 
>give us a quotation which would accurately reflect what he wrote.  Given your 
>history of fraud, lies, and misrepresentations about what you have "read" I have 
>yet to read a convincing explanation that he said what you claim that he has said.  
>Would you please provide it?
>
>	--YFE
	I'm going to call Rachelle and ask her what she thinks about
"fraud", "lies" and "misrepresentations". In the mean time, why don't
you take a little trip to Camp Snoopy.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 11 09:21:33 PDT 1996
Article: 30611 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson's 'Historical Research'
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:36:45 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 40
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>
># Professor, in all seriousness, can you posts the statements by
># Gerstein, Stangl, Franz and a couple of others so we can get a
># overview? Or, are these testimonies readily available to the public?
>
>Sigh. These testimonies are posted here all the time. Why don't
>you try forging them, as you did with the testimonies or Prufer
>and Dr. Muench?
>
>These testimonies are available to everybody. They appear in
>books, which are in any reasonable library. That a "revisionist
>scholar" wouldn't know this is hardly surprising, I guess.
>
>Really, you people are a bunch of sorry Nazi imbeciles.
>
>Why doesn't Faurisson mention all these witnesses?
>
># You say there is more? Could you cite some of these?
>
>His analysis of Dr. Kremer's diary is one.
>

	Okay. That is a no. No they aren't available to the general
public. Really professor, wouldn't it be in your interest to give the
exact sources? I take it you think the testimonies are mighty argument
for your cause since you specialize in posting them.

	I wonder if the professor scowls down on any students who may
raise a point he can't answer and calls them "imbecles". 

>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 11 09:21:34 PDT 1996
Article: 30614 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson's 'Historical Research'
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:37:26 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>
>>  These testimonies are available to everybody. They appear in
>>  books, which are in any reasonable library.
>
>	I think you've hit upon the problem, Moran has about the same familiarity 
>with "libraries" as W.C. Fields had with soda pop.

	Maybe I better call Rachelle.

>
>	--YFE
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 11 10:25:45 PDT 1996
Article: 30620 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:17:18 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 26
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <316a5c71.910821@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	What I see in the Goldhagen review is what it says, "10,000
>	camps for the incarceration and destruction of Jews and
>	non-Jews".
>
>	...I realize you will have to resort to some hedging, as you
>	have already indicated in coping for "ghettos" as camps. 
>
>
>So, in Mr. Moran's distorted view, ghettos were not a place where the
>Nazis kept Jews incarcerated?  All this demonstrates is how difficult
>it is for the truth to penetrate Mr. Moran's thick skull.

	"Camps" "Camp" is the word. A camp is a camp is a camp, and by
any other ghetto the chutzpah is all the same.

>--
>Harry Katz
>
>An Israelite is prohibited from deceiving even an idolator.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 11 14:38:38 PDT 1996
Article: 30629 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson's 'Historical Research'
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:39:18 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 43
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <316bb0a6.402490@news.pacificnet.net>, 
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>>So what does "leading revisionist" Faurisson do? Very simple. He
>>>"forgets" all other evidence to what happened in these camps:
>>>documents, physical remains, and numerous other testimonies, for
>>>instance those given by SS-men who served in these camps for a
>>>long time and, of course, provided a far more accurate and detailed
>>>picture than Gerstein. SS-men like Stangl, who commanded Treblinka;
>>>Franz, his deputy; and others (Mentz, Matthes, Lambert, Oberhauser,
>>>Suchomel, Horn, etc).
>
>>	Professor, in all seriousness, can you posts the statements by
>>Gerstein, Stangl, Franz and a couple of others so we can get a
>>overview? Or, are these testimonies readily available to the public?
>
>Soviet interrogation records which came to light during the
>Demjanjuk affair (and which, clearly, led to his freedom) will
>be provided here during the next week or so, so you can
>consider them as well as others which may show up. 
>
>If you would rather not wait for them, see 
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka
>
>and look for files using the names yeger, malagon, and leleko.

	Go ahead with it McVay. I've been waiting for the Leleko
report again. I recall asking you to repost it so I could parse it, so
to speak.


>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>        Anonymous ftp: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>        European mirror: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 11 14:38:39 PDT 1996
Article: 30631 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Holocaust - 99.999 % of the story
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:05:59 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 37
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>Chuck Ferree writes:
>
>Holy shit, I thought tommy-rot had been properly jailed! Just took a 
>little time off from making up lies.
>>
>>	I see after a couple of days off, that the topic of who were
>>the victims of the Holocaust has popped up.
>
>Moran, you moron, the Holocaust is about the millions of innocent people 
>in Europe who were murdered by your pal, Hitler. At least 6 million 
>happened to be Jews, because good old Adolph decided they had to go. So 
>his gang of Nazi thugs proceeded to get the Jews out of Europe by 
>shooting some of them, gassing some of them, bashing in a lot of their 
>heads, letting German dogs kill and eat some of them, think of anything 
>cruel and horrible, and that's exactly what Hitler and the Nazi bastids 
>did to Jews and 6-10 million other innocent people. 
>Don't you get it, moron, this is history, not some fairytail made up by 
>crackpots like you and those other turkeys. 
>
>I'd hire you to be my PR man, except you'd steal me blind. 
>Chuck
>
	Brilliant. By your standards. Is this the best you can do?
Get with the new program. 6,000,000 Jews said to have been killed is
no longer vogue, its now "many millions". In fact if you go back over
this thread you will see where it is said the number 6,000,000 never
was a common figure. 

>
>>
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 11 15:32:05 PDT 1996
Article: 30638 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:11:50 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

	I was going to just let this response lay without counter
response in that it is self evident in lacking dignity and substance
in the same capacity as Mr. Green's. Some of the ravings have been
excluded from the below counter response to focus on and take
advantage of reposting some material.

I.
Moran: Personally I have never seen the full Leuchter Report, only
bits here and there. 

>Professor: I read all of it. It's one of the most idiotic collection
>of lies I saw in my life; it's no wonder even "leading
>revisionists" admit it's a piece of useless rubbish.

Moran: At least we can see from the professor's statement the
revisionists have th capacity to deny their own, and don't just flail
around defending every thing. Moran concluded from the whole thing
that both reports were useless. I don't know what kind of techniques
the professor uses in his classroom when someone poses a question he
personally thinks is absurd, but we can see here he has the tendency
to flail about emotionally.

                        --------------------
II.
Moran: This is very interesting in that we can recognize that the
 agent of mass extermination Zyklon B was designed for slow 
 release in order to maintain a level of suspension in the 
 air to work over the extended period of time, showing it
 to have been a poor choice for mass extermination

>You're lying through your teeth again. We've been through
>this. Even if "revisionist" claims were true - and the
>Zyklon releases 40% or so in the first half-hour - using
>the same concentration required for delousing would kill
>humans very quickly, because the cyanide gas kills humans
>much, much faster than it kills lice etc, and a far
>smaller concentration is needed.
>
>You'll just keep lying on this again and again and again,
>I assume? But what can one expect from a forger of
>testimonies (oh, sorry, it was only a "satire", right?).

Moran: See repost under  

                     -----------------
III.
Moran: As to Cremas IV and V. Are there just some footings left? A few
remnants of walls? What could be left that they could take samples
>from  if even the Holocaust promotion network doesn't publish any?

>Professor: Once again, a revisionazi blames his ignorance on others.
>What was left of Kremas IV and V is no secret; mainly the
>floors and some portions of the wall. It's not hard to
>find photographs of these; Pressac's books has some.

Moran; Now the professor refers us to a book that is not easy to come
by. The professor is very active in presenting Holocaust promotional
photographs on a number of websites. One might think the professor
would have posted some of these alleged photos of Crema IV and V,
instead of the one and only photo, Crema II. 
	Now maybe the professor, keeper of Holocaust photographs,
should make them ready accessible. One would think they would be of
benefit to his cause.

                        -----------------
IV. 
Moran: This report leaves off flatly at the end without giving us the
results of the CO2/HCN combo, 

>Professor: No it doesn't. I have a copy, having printed it from
>alt.revisionism. It explicitly states that the presence of
>CO2 decreases the amount of cyanide compounds that will form.

Moran: The statement above comes from comment on a paragraph preceding
any conclusion that came a few pages later.

                        ------------------
V.
Moran: So how do we explain the finding of any HCN after all these
years and 100 feet of acid rain? We don't. No HCN was found, 
as is clear from the report. 

>Professor: For God's sake. HCN is *gas*. How do you expect to find
>it floating around, after 50 years?

Moran: The professor has left out some of the ensuing commentary which
states the "compound" connection and its naturally accurring
properties. NO where does it say the researchers were looking for it
"floating around". They were looking for extent traces of CN
compounds.  Actually, HCN probably only lasts a few minutes before it
hooks up with other local molecular structures and becomes just
another CN compound among the many naturally existing CN compounds.
This is what Moran's stated. Moran never stated the HCN should still
be "floating around". Moran proposed why any CN compunds were detected
at all, and that finding any extent CN traces offers no evidence that
they exist because of bygone gassing.
	
                     ----------------------
VI.
Moran: Cyanide compounds are found naturally. 

>Professor: You don't say. Are there any on the walls of your house
>(assuming you haven't started experimenting already)?

Moran: Well it seems that the professor agrees with the proposal that
CN compounds occur naturally. Of course it wasn't him that analyized
the report, and corrected any notions one might get from it. The
porfessor is a instructor in comupter science at Brown University. We
can't tell if he knew about naturally occurring CN compounds before or
if he has taken a lesson from Moran.
	Perhaps he should address this acceptance instead of flailing
about with something like "Are there any on the walls of your house?"

                    -----------------------

>Professor: Why weren't any traces found in rooms which are not
>considered to have been used for gassing, while they
>were found in the ruins of the gas chambers? Just a wild
>coincidence? You've flipped, Moran, you've totally flipped.

Moran: Perhaps the professor should re-read the analysis of the report
where this is addressed. Especially where it points out the highest
readings came from subterrainian structures, prone to percipitation of
earthy compounds in solution, CN being one of them, and the Prussian
blue in the fumigation facilities.
	The professor wonders why there would be no CN compounds found
in "rooms" not considered to have been used for gassing. "Rooms"
professor? What rooms are those? The researchers did take samples from
"dwelling accomodations" and found no traces. These cites being
located above ground and not prone to precipitation and deposit of
common earth compounds, such as CN compounds.
  
	As to the professor's "Your flipped, Moran, totally flipped",
it seems the professor has gotten himself into a little snit here. One
could very well wonder what kind of attitude he may expose if
addressing any students who may have a point he disgress with? 'Your
flipped. Your flipped'?
	So much for Brown University.

                                                  Tom Moran



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 12 09:36:11 PDT 1996
Article: 30649 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:31:51 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 116
Message-ID: <316d0810.896705@news.pacificnet.net>
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article
>, Marty
>Kelley  wrote:
>
>> On 7 Apr 1996, Daniel Mittleman wrote:
>> 
>> > In article <316686f4.1834879@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net
>(tom moran) writes...
>> > > 
>> > >     Any way, Mittleman, now that you have clarified the article,
>> > >and tried to divert the focus away from the original topic:
>> > >     Can you come up with just 1/2% of the 10,000 extermination
>> > >("destroying") camps Goldhagen claims? 
>> 
>> Once again, Mr. Moran, you have twisted what Goldhagen wrote: he referred 
>> to 10,000 camps of various sizes for "the incarceration and destruction" 
>> of Jews and non-Jews.  In other words, he's talking about both the 
>> "extermination" camps (a fairly small number) AS WELL AS various "prison" 
>> camps (the overwhelming majority).  That much is clear from the context of 
>> Goldhagen's remarks in the _NYT_ op-ed piece.  It seems fairly clear to me 
>> that he's referring to all detention facilities, of whatever size, which 
>> operated during the Nazi era to imprison political and 
>> "racial" prisoners across Europe, not just to camps that were designated 
>> as killing centers. I'm not sure whether Goldhagen would include the 
>> ghettos as "camps," either, although a case could be made for doing so. I 
>> haven't acquired Goldhagen's book yet; should have it by the end of the week.
>> 
>> So, 1/2 of 1% of 10,000 camps?  Sure, I could probably come up with the 
>> names of 50 camps pretty quickly; I'll look in the library tomorrow.  
>> 
>
>Don't bother Mr. Kelley. Here's a list of 51 camps. 19 from
>Auschwitz-Birkenau and its major subsidiary camps. 32 from Dachau and its
>major subsidiary camps:
>
>Auschwitz-Birkenau
>  Althammer
>  Blechhammer
>  Bobrek
>  Budy
>  Czechowitz
>  Gleiwitz
>  Golleschau
>  Hindenburg
>  Kobior
>  Konigshute
>  Lageiewniki (?) 
>  Lagischgrube
>  Lendzin
>  Monowitz
>  Neustadt
>  Plawy
>  Pless
>  Schweintochlowitz
> 
>Dachcau
>  Allach
>  Ampermoching
>  Asbach
>  Augsburg
>  Bad To"lz
>  Blaichach
>  Burgau
>  Emmerting
>  Fischen
>  Friedrichshafen
>  Germering
>  Horgau
>  Karlsfeld
>  Kaufbeuren
>  Kaufering
>  Kemtpten
>  Kottern
>  Landsberg
>  Landshut
>  Mu"nchen
>  NeuStift
>  Nurnberg
>  Ottobrunn
>  Radolphzell
>  Rothschaige
>  Salzburg
>  Saulgau
>  Stephanskirchen
>  Trostberg
>  Tu"rkheim
>  U"berlingen
>

	You'd better go back over the thread again and see where
Goldhagen said it was "documented" and they were "camps" for the
"incarceration and destruction of Jews and non-Jews". 
	Document that they are camps. Not "satellite camps" and not
"sub-camps" and that the Germans estroyed people there. 

	Now if you can do that, your have 1/2% plus .0001%.

	You do certainly put a lot of work into supporting idiocy.

	Anyway, start the documentation. As far as we know you could
be giving street names.
>
>Mark
>
>posted/e-mailed to Mr. Kelley and Moran
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From chuckf@rio.com Fri Apr 12 11:35:01 PDT 1996
Article: 30674 of alt.revisionism
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From: Chuck Ferree 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Holocaust - 99.999 % of the story
Date: 10 Apr 1996 22:28:39 GMT
Organization: Northwest Internet Services, Inc.
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

Chuck Ferree writes:

Holy shit, I thought tommy-rot had been properly jailed! Just took a 
little time off from making up lies.
>
>	I see after a couple of days off, that the topic of who were
>the victims of the Holocaust has popped up.

Moran, you moron, the Holocaust is about the millions of innocent people 
in Europe who were murdered by your pal, Hitler. At least 6 million 
happened to be Jews, because good old Adolph decided they had to go. So 
his gang of Nazi thugs proceeded to get the Jews out of Europe by 
shooting some of them, gassing some of them, bashing in a lot of their 
heads, letting German dogs kill and eat some of them, think of anything 
cruel and horrible, and that's exactly what Hitler and the Nazi bastids 
did to Jews and 6-10 million other innocent people. 
Don't you get it, moron, this is history, not some fairytail made up by 
crackpots like you and those other turkeys. 

I'd hire you to be my PR man, except you'd steal me blind. 
Chuck



>




From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 12 11:35:03 PDT 1996
Article: 30700 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news1.erols.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 02:27:23 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 23
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References: <31669b42.7032542@news.pacificnet.net> <316d5081.17676042@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <316d5688.19219376@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:41:58 GMT, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John
>Morris) wrote:
>
>> I have done even
>>better, and it was dead easy to do except for the chore of keying them
>>in. As a result, I have a list of more than two hundred. I only
>>stopped because I got tired of doing it.
>
>I'm awfully sorry. The list presented is not "more than two hundred."
>I stopped typing at number 122 (1.22%).

Now that your list has been dwindled down, perhaps you better start
typing again after getting the little rest.
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 12 11:35:04 PDT 1996
Article: 30709 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:14:01 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 135
Message-ID: <316dae54.43459735@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <316a7397.6836954@news.pacificnet.net> <4keecj$r3f@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <316bb12b.535628@news.pacificnet.net> <4kgtk1$7u1@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <316bb12b.535628@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:

Moran:	The other parts of Mr.Green's emotional response set aside to
focus on his response to Moran's asking him where any discussion on
"background levels" are referred to in the report. The topic was and
is the natural and common occurance of organic CN compounds.
                          -------------------

Moran:	Cyanide compounds are found naturally. Carbon and Nitrogen are
relatively common elements that have a wide range of easy combinant
capablities with other elements and each other. Cyanide compounds can
be found under a list of organic molecules. They can be organic
constituants of life, and are in fact even produced by organic
processes, such as fair amounts are found in cherry pits.

[Notice where the topic is naturally occurring CN compounds and
Mr.Green goes over to "barracks".]


Mr.Green: What were the background background levels detected in
barracks?  Why were they substantially different than in the chambers?
Hmm? 

Moran: "Background levels"? I don't know. They didn't say. I imagine
you might mean "background levels" to mean some tests on the general
area for cyanide compounds and then to see if any from the "chambers"
were higher or lower in relation? Good idea. ? Would this be
technically feasible, what with the readings coming in at .00018 of a
gram. 

Mr.Green: Not only is it feasible, it was done as you would know if
you read the paper a bit more carefully.

Moran:  As stated, no "background levels" were discussed. Maybe Mr.
Green should point out where they were, if this is what he is saying.


Mr.Green: From the report's abstract:


 The  analysis  of control  samples,  taken from other places
(especially  from living quarters) yielded unequivocally negative
results. 

Later in the report:

	The  results of analyses are presented in Tables I-IV.  They
	unequivocally show that the cyanide compounds occur  in  all
	the  facilities that, according to the source data, were  in
	contact  with them. On the other hand, they do not occur  in
	dwelling accomodations, which was shown by means of  control
	samples.  

Moran: Of course Moran's treatment discusses why anyone would find CN
compounds in the Cremas I,II and III, seeing how they are
subterrainian and prone to percipitation of earthy materials in
solution, CN compounds being among the common materials that
percipitate.  Now Mr.Green cites something that merely concludes that
no traces were found in the dwelling accomodations, and has nothing to
do with the natural occurance of CN compounds or any general
"background" ratio.
	The approach to taking any "background levels" in relation to
naturally occurring CN compounds in order to establish a ratio between
those findings and what is found in readings from any Cremas would be
to take a number of samples from the soils in the area and from the
footings of other buildings etc. and compare the figures to those
found at Cremas. Whatever readings they got from "barracks" are
irrelvant.
	Again, perhaps Mr. Green should clarify how any readings from
barracks are to be taken as "background" samples.
                        ---------------------	

VI.
Moran:	As far as the Leuchter Report or the Polish report are
concerned, including the paragraphs with the "revisionist" word, none
of it is sufficient to deny or confirm any part of the Holocaust
story. 

Mr. Green: This report is sufficient to demonstrate that the homicidal

gas chambers contain cyanide in excess of background levels. 

Moran: "Background levels" again? 

Mr.Green: What part of "unequivocally negative results" don't you
understand?

Moran: I understand it means no traces were found in any of the
"dwelling accomodations" tested. Period. 
	Again. Maybe you can show how any of the readings from any
barracks are to be taken as "background levels".
                           -------------------

Moran:	Well, it seems if the definition of background levels is
correct, that Mr. Green admits or accepts that there would be levels
of CN compounds not associated with any gassing.
	Either way, the report does not cover taking any "background
levels", nor does it engage in any comparisons between CN compound
amounts in samples and those found in a composite average from the
general surroundings of like conditions, not meaning "barracks", above
ground.  

Mr.Green: Mr. Moran is wrong here.  He has not read the report very
carefully.

Moran: "Moran is wrong here"? Well this is powerful evidence. 




-- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green	Department of Chemistry, Stanford CA 94303-5080
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU  http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud
	So much for Stanford. Actually there was a report in todays
L.A.Times (4/11) that reveals a panel that was a lobby channel for
special consideration to admit people who wouldn't have been admitted
otherwise. Now no one is saying Mr.Green's name would come up, but it
certainly shows that Stanford's academic standards can be compromised.
	Now judging by Mr.Green's initial response to this post and
his thus far second response, we might get the idea that compromised
or not, Stanfords criteria for admissions is inferior.

>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or 
>prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, 
>or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to 
>petition the government for a redress of grievances.
	The ADL might disagree with this. Now supposing a revisionist
should show up on Stanford's campus. Who would be there pushing to
have them banned? Simon Wiesenthal? The ADL? Who would be there to
shout them down, in attempts to keep them from having their say?
Hillel? The JDL? There is that record of past events.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 12 12:53:25 PDT 1996
Article: 30717 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!inquo!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: So much for eyewitnesses.
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:53:17 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 33
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	According to Franciszek Piper, curator of the Auschwitz Museum
in Poland, prisoner and SS eyewitness testimony is unreliable.
	In his "Number of Victims", Chapter 4 in "The Anatomy of the
Auschwitz Death Camp", he covers the course of events and
considerations involved in arriving at the revised Auschwitz figures. 
	It seems the revisers held little esteem for any eyewitness
testimony, at least in regard to numbers, be it prisoner or SS
functionary, discounting it all in favor of deportation records from
various countries.
	In respect to the numbers, Piper referring to the deportation
records states, "Before these records were discovered, researchers had
to rely on discrepant and impercise data from testimonies and
depositions from witnesses, former prisoners, and Nazi functionaries
and on court decisions and fragmentary and incomplete records of camp
registries, archives, and other institutions".
	Here Piper even includes "court decisions" as part of that
which is held in low esteem.
	He goes on to say the testimonies held "inevitable distortions
and were "marred by serious errors, discrepancies, and
contradictions".
	Among the few examples Piper identifies as perpetrating the
questionable testimony is the number one star witness for the
Holocaust story, Rudolph Ho'ss.
	Under a bold heading "Investigating and Prosecuting Agencies
and Tribunals" Piper does a quick run down on the erroneous findings
of these bodies and even does similar comment under "Scholarly
Publications".
	Piper comments along the way, "Yet several factors now prompt
historians to attempt to verify widely used figures, including the
scientific demand for objectivity in the study of Nazi crimes."
	
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 12 12:53:26 PDT 1996
Article: 30721 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 02:25:42 GMT
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Lines: 218
Message-ID: <316db96e.46301994@news.pacificnet.net>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sat, 06 Apr 1996 16:41:26 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	Danny Mittleman complains about Moran's extracting the article
>>where Goldhagen makes some awesome claims. The usual gross
>>exaggerations that come out of this faction.
>>	Calling Mittleman on his defense, Moran ask Mittleman if he
>>could come up with just 1/2 % of the alleged 10,000 camps. That was a
>>couple of weeks ago. He has now come to the below. 
>
>[snip]
>
>Tom Moran recently issued this challenge to list 0.5% of the "10,000
>camps" mentioned in a review of a new book by Jonathon Goldhagen as
>camps for "incarcerating and destroying Jews." I have done even
>better, and it was dead easy to do except for the chore of keying them
>in. As a result, I have a list of more than two hundred. I only
>stopped because I got tired of doing it.
>
>I have taken a broad definition of "camp" to mean any place where Jews
>might have been confined against their wills. The definition would
>include transit camps, temporary internment areas, ghettos,
>labour/concentration camps, and so on. If the definition were
>broadened to include areas where units of the SS, SD, Order Police, or
>Wehrmacht were encamped for a day or more for the purpose of rounding
>up or killing Jews, then the list would include every city, town,
>village, and shetl where even one Jew was known to have been seized
>against his will.
>
>The list below was chosen at random from a handful of standard
>sources. I am not certain that I have classified the camps correctly
>in every case. The categories themselves are by no means comphrensive
>or exhaustive of every geographic area under Nazi control.
>
>For those deniers who currently hold the bizarre view that there was
>no Holocaust and that the non-Jewish victims of this non-Holocaust
>ought to be remembered as well, I note that many of the camps below
>also accomodated non-Jewish prisoners of various kinds.

Goldhagen's statement: "It has been documented that more than 10,000
camps for the incarceration and destruction of Jews and non-Jews".

	
>Extermination Camps
>
> Auschwitz-Birkenau
> Belzec
> Chelmno
> Sobibor
> Treblinka

	The above are the main body of camps that the Holocaust story
strives to document as extermination camps, for the "incarceration and
destruction of Jews ..."
	None of the material put out by the Holocaust promotion
network lists any of  the below as "camps" for the "destruction of
Jews ..."

>Labour Camps
>
> Atmicetka-Transnistria
> Auschwitz
> Auschwitz-Althammer
> Auschwitz-Babice
> Auschwitz-Bismarckhuette
> Auschwitz-Blechammer
> Auschwitz-Bobrek
> Auschwitz-Budy
> Auschwitz-Charlottengrube
> Auschwitz-Czecowice
> Auschwitz-Dziedzice
> Auschwitz-Eintracthuette
> Auschwitz-Furstengrube
> Auschwitz-Gleiwitz
> Auschwitz-Golleschau
> Auschwitz-Guentergrube
> Auschwitz-Hindenberg
> Auschwitz-Hubertshuette
> Auschwitz-Jawischowitz
> Auschwitz-Monowitz
> Auschwitz-Neu Dachs
> Auschwitz-Plawy
> Auschwitz-Sosnowiec
> Auschwitz-Trzebinia
* Bergen-Belsen
> Bogdanovka (Transnistria)
* Buchenwald
> Ceiszanow
* Dachau
* Dora
> Dumanovka (Transnistria)
> Ebensee
> Flossenbuerg
* Gross-Rosen
> Gunskirchen
> Gusen
> Klooga
> Koszeg-Guens
> Lagedi
> Lieberose
> Lodz
> Luckenwalde
> Maidenek
> Mauthausen
> Mielec
> Natzweiler
> Neuengamme
> Neusalz
> Orienenberg
> Ostrowiec
> Plaszow
> Ravensbrueck
> Sachsenhausen
> Skarszysko Kamienna
> Stutthof
> Theresienstadt
> Tuttlingen
> Verkhovka (Transnistria)
> Vertugen (Transnistria)

*These camps used to be the center of attention as extermination camps
and are now accepted by all, including the Holocaust promotion
network, where mass "destruction" did not take place.

>Euthansia facilities
Not familiar with these names. Perhaps there is some eyewitness
testimony?
> Bernberg
> Brandenberg-Havel
> Grafeneck
> Hadamar
> Hartheim-Linz
> Sonnenstein
>
>Ghettos
The term used in the grand assertion is "camps".

> Bialystok
> Bolimow
> Chmielnik
> Chocz
> Crakow
> Czestochowa
> Deblin
> Glowno
> Jedrzejow
> Koaminek
> Kolo
> Kutno
> Lodz
> Lutomiersk
> Pinczow
> Piotrkow
> Plonsk
> Radomsko
> Siedlice
> Tomaszow
> Tuliszkow
> Warsaw
> Wloclawek
> Wolomin
> Zdunska Wola
> Zychlin
>
>Internment camps
 Okay, "incarceration" camps. But no "destruction".
> (Belgium)
>
> Malines 
>
> (Vichy)
>
> Gurs
> Noe
> Le Vernet
> Rivesaltes
> Argeles
> Les Milles
>
>Sahara camps (Vichy deportees)
>
> Boghari
> Djelfa
> Hadjerat-M'Guil
> Ain el Ourak
> Bechar
> Abadla
> Beni Abbes
> Meridja
> Kenadsa
> Bouarfa
> Tendrara
> Berguent
>
>Temporary killing areas - Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia
Not familiar with these areas. Are they "camps".
> Tasmajdan
> Kruscica
> Loborgrad
> Bosanska Gradiska
> Stara Gradiska
> Jasnovac

All we need now is a little "documented" as to what is left, after
eliminating such places under "ghettos", "interment camps", "Sahara
camps" and "labor camps". 
	What the deal requires is 1/2% of 10,000 "camps" "documented"
as "destruction" centers. 
	 
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 12 12:53:27 PDT 1996
Article: 30723 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Little German Babies
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 02:59:31 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <316dc65b.49610841@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <316a61e7.2309376@news.pacificnet.net>  
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Marty Kelley   wrote:
>
># Compare that perceived insult to the actual 
># policy that the Nazis had toward Jewish babies: Himmler (I think--
># or was it Frank?) stressed the importance of showing no mercy 
># toward Jewish children, since if they were allowed to survive, 
># they would be able to keep the Jewish "race" alive.   
>
>It was Himmler:
>
>Speechs by Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler before senior SS officers in Poznan, 
>October 4 and 6, 1943
>[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - 
>Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. XIII, p. 323, and 
>Himmler, Reichsfuehrer-SS - P. Padfield, Henry Holt and Co, NY, 1990, 
>p. 469]
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>[...]
>
>I ask of you that what I say in this circle you really only hear and
>never speak of. We come to the question: how is it with the women and
>the children? I have resolved even here on a completely clear
>solution. That is to say I do not consider myself justified in
>eradicating the men - so to speak killing or ordering them killed -
>and allowing the avengers in the shape of the children to grow up for
>our sons and grandsons. The difficult decision has to be taken, to
>cause this Volk [people] to disappear from the earth.
>
>
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.
Remember the Intifada, the childrens war against the Jews. We saw it
daily, while each day in the U.S. press, columns, letters to the
editor and quotes from the chosen, it was an act of a "democracy".


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 13 10:22:02 PDT 1996
Article: 30782 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:25:47 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	What we have here thus far is Moran's post with some
arithmetic founded on numbers professor Keren himself gave and the
professor's response - sans any mathematical contradiction. During the
first post of this topic professor Keren responded:  "And your source
for the '"15%"' figure is? You have already proved to the readers of
this newsgroup that you cannot handle basic arithmatic".
	The professor did not take it any further with a mathematical
contradiction.

	Moran stands pat. We have Moran's mathematics and professor
Keren's childish reply.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 13 10:22:03 PDT 1996
Article: 30783 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: So much for eyewitnesses.
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:55:39 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	The posted article deals with a specific topic on the Polish
Museum trashing all eyewitness testimony in order to come to figures
for Auschwitz. So far we have professor Keren introducing the USS
Liberty and Dresden.

and 

	Jamie McCarthy's, "I seem to recall seeing this exact text
posted in a previous article by Mr. Moran.  Has he taken to
time-delayed self-echo, a la Gannon?"

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 13 10:22:03 PDT 1996
Article: 30784 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: So much for eyewitnesses.
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:37:03 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 14
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>I seem to recall seeing this exact text posted in a previous article
>by Mr. Moran.  Has he taken to time-delayed self-echo, a la Gannon?

	Jamie thinks Moran posts articles for him and the other usuals
out here. Moran posts stuff for the genral reader, incuding anyone new
to it. Of course they will see Jamie's stuff too. 

> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
> to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 13 10:22:04 PDT 1996
Article: 30786 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: T. Moran is a fool, so says ... everyone
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:21:44 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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Message-ID: <316e5865.1877611@news.pacificnet.net>
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dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

	Mittleman prelude deleted.

>    Good place to ask Tom Moran a question:  So Tom, now that Goldhagen's
>    book has been out for over a week and we have had a chance - if we
>    wanted to - to take a look at it, what part of Goldhagen's argument
>    that there were 10,000 camps do you disagree with?  What SPECIFICALLY
>    did he say (and cite) that you dispute?

	The wild gross exaggeration and lie about 10,000 camps, and
his assertion that 330,000 Germans were directly involved.
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                   Quoth the Raven: "Never happened."



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 13 10:22:05 PDT 1996
Article: 30789 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran as Moron?
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:06:57 GMT
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <316d0a07.1399708@news.pacificnet.net>, 
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>>These testimonies are available to everybody. They appear in
>>>books, which are in any reasonable library. That a "revisionist
>>>scholar" wouldn't know this is hardly surprising, I guess.
>
>>>Really, you people are a bunch of sorry Nazi imbeciles.
>
>>>Why doesn't Faurisson mention all these witnesses?
>
>>># You say there is more? Could you cite some of these?
>
>>>His analysis of Dr. Kremer's diary is one.
>
>>	Okay. That is a no. No they aren't available to the general
>>public. Really professor, wouldn't it be in your interest to give the
>>exact sources? I take it you think the testimonies are mighty argument
>>for your cause since you specialize in posting them.

	Why don't you state where the can be found by the 'general
public'.

>They aren't? Kremer's diary isn't available to the public?
>Where, Mr. Moran, do you suppose those "public" folks quoting
>them _here_ got their information, Griswold's stainless steel
>collander?
>
>>	I wonder if the professor scowls down on any students who may
>>raise a point he can't answer and calls them "imbecles". 
>
>I suspect, if the Professor had Mr. Moran in his classes, that
>the answer would be "Yes."

	Thank you. And you say the professor would be acting from his
personal emotion on it? And you say he would find jusitfied exception?

McVay, you should leave the witness testimony up to the professor and
you should stick to your Almanac.
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>        Anonymous ftp: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>        European mirror: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 13 10:22:07 PDT 1996
Article: 30810 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: So much for eyewitnesses.
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:49:17 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>So, Moran repeats what most people will agree with: eyewitness
>testimony often lacks in numerical accuracy, more so when
>we're dealing with traumatic events.
>
>Let me return once again to the matter of the attack on
>the USS Liberty, a matter which keeps popping up here.
>
>We have three officers, two of them of very high ranks,
>who give radically different versions about the attack
>on the ship. For a certain, crucial event, their time
>estimates are "immediately", "half-an-hour", and
>"two hours".
>
>According to revisionazis like Tom Moran, the Liberty was
>therefore never attacked? 

	I see you have a statement here, and a conclusion. Your
personal conclusion. Its one thing to say, If P then Q, but it doesn't
stop there. 

	Actually you never saw me get involved in the USS Liberty
discussion out here. But heres my summary.
	The Jews flew out and reconned the ship, which was flying the
American flag. They returned and proceded to strafe and bomb it. This
act was of some duration. The American flag was flying all the time.
The crew thinks it was an intentional act. 
	Captain McGonicle (spelling uncertain) received a
Congressional Metal of Honor, that was slipped to him out the back
door of the White House, contrary to the usual ceremonies in awarding
the citation.

>Look at another example.
>
>Estimates of the death toll in Dresden vary between
>35,000 and "at least 250,000" according to some claims
>posted here.
>
>Revisionazis like Tom Moran will have to conclude that
>Dresden was never attacked. You can't have it both ways;
>either you apply revisionazi standards to all historical
>events, or to none.

	Another If P then whats convenient.

>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 13 10:22:09 PDT 1996
Article: 30827 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Little German Babies
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:53:03 GMT
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schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote:


"Mr. Giwer has adopted the charmingly Talmudic method of answering a
question a question. How amusing!"


	Now theres an ego full. The "charmingly Talmudic method".
Actually, Plato's books are loaded with what is known as the "Socratic
Method" which employs answers from question and the need to clarify
what is being discussed. I would invite anyone to read Plato's works
written around 400 BC to see for themselves.
	Socrates was an expert at it. The difference between any
"Talmudic method" and the Socratic Method is Socrates was seeking out
truths and the Talmudic method seeks personal goal. 
	It's Intentional Insulting Behavior IV. of the chutzpah
method.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 13 11:56:15 PDT 1996
Article: 30845 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:58:35 GMT
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Laura Finsten  wrote:

>
>Yale F. Eideken wrote:
>
>   	It might also vary with how you define "camps."  Many of the "camps" 
>    were actually a complex of different camps.  One source I recently read 
>    (Sacher; "Redemption of the Unwanted") states that Malthusan was actually 
>    a compelx of 150 sub-camps.
>
>Tom Moran replied:
>  
>    Okay, now we have "how you define 'camps'". In this case a
>    place unto itself, within it's own, not part of another such as a camp
>    site at at a camp ground. Not a "sub-camp".
>
>Yale F. Eideken responded:  
>
>    No the question is how Goldhagen defined "camps."  You have yet to 
>    give us a quotation which would accurately reflect what he wrote.  Given your 
>    history of fraud, lies, and misrepresentations about what you have "read" I have 
>    yet to read a convincing explanation that he said what you claim that he has said.  
>    Would you please provide it?
>
>
>I bought Goldhagen's book yesterday (I splurged and used up all my bookcredits).
>Of course I haven't read the entire thing, but in an effort to move this debate
>forward, I offer the following direct quotations from "Hitler's Willing Executioners":

>"A recent study of *all varieties* of German "camps" (including ghettos) has
>identified a total of 10,005 positively, with the full knowledge that many more
>existed which have not yet been uncovered.<15>  Among the ten thousand camps
>(not all of which housed Jews), 941 forced labor camps designated specially for
>Jews were within the borders of just (today's) Poland.  And additional 230
>special camps for Hungarian Jews were set up on the Austrian border.  The 
>Germans created 399 ghettos in Poland, 34 in East Galicia, 16 in small Lithuania.
>So just the known forced labor camps and ghettos reserved for Jews totaled over
>1,600.  In addition to these, there were 52 main concentration camps, which had 
>a total of 1,202 satellite camps (aussenlager).<16>" p.167  [my emphasis,
>parentheses and footnotes in original]
>
>Goldhagen's footnotes:
>
>"<15> Gudrun Schwarz, "Die nationalsozialistischen Lager" (Frankfurt/M: Campus
>Verlag, 1990), p.221.  For example, it is not known how many ghettos existed in
>Belorussia or in Ukraine (p.132).  It should be noted that the camps varied
>enormously in size, from the vast Auschwitz complex to those in which Germans
>incarcerated but a few dozen people." p.526
>
>"<16> See Schwarz, "Die nationalsozialistischen Lager", pp.221-222, for a summary
>of the number of camps in each of the categories." p.526
>
>I haven't actually got to the stuff about camps and camp personnel, but Goldhagen's
>analysis of antisemitism in Germany before and during the Nazi era is really
>interesting.  Mr. Moran, you might be interested to know that Goldhagen describes
>his research as "revisionist history".

	
	Thanks for the preliminary on Goldhagen's "10,000 camps for
the incarceration and destruction of Jews and non-Jews".
	Its evident we're going to have a tough time with the
interpretation of "camps", as evidenced from other posts and these
quotes from Goldhagens book. 
	As we go on with the topic we don't want to forget the
"destruction" claim, along with the "documented" claim. Already there
has been a lot of wailing about any omission of the "incarceration"
part, so now we can focus on the two others.

Goldhagen's book extract from above listed.

 	"Among the ten thousand camps (not all of which housed Jews),
941 forced labor camps designated especially for Jews were within the
borders of just (today's) Poland.

	And additional 230 special camps for Hungarian Jews were set
up on the Austrian border.  

	The  Germans created 399 ghettos in Poland, 34 in East
Galicia, 16 in small Lithuania.

	So just the known forced labor camps and ghettos reserved for
Jews totaled over 1,600.

	In addition to these, there were 52 main concentration camps,
which had  total of 1,202 satellite camps (aussenlager).<16>" p.167
[my emphasis, parentheses and footnotes in original]


Okay, not bad. Thats 2,802 places so far out of the 10,000, leaving
only 7,198 places yet to be alluded to. We better call them 'places'
until we can settle on whether or not they should be called "camps".
"Camps" has such a certain connotation to it in the Holocaust story
you know. Maybe Goldhagen should have been a little more careful in
his choice of words. You would think some one writing about the
Holocaust would be aware of the word "camps" being generally thought
of as centers where terrible exterminations took place. 
     We won't ask for all the "documented" proof that "destruction"
took place at each one right now, or even if most of the listing
should be even referred to as a camp. Select parts of the book should
start appearing round about.

	As usual and predictible from the news column the N.Y.Times
accomodated Goldhagen, the focus is on Jews, inspite of his including
"non-Jews".

	Sixteen hundred (1600) camps just for Jews? This should be
interesting.

	We can see that maybe ghettos is now camps - or vice versa,
and he did clarify camps to mean also ghettos in parenteses.

	The "...the 52 main concentration camps ..." should muster
some off the wall listings. 

	The extract lets on a bit more evidence as to what might
constitute a camp, where it says, "It should be noted that the camps
varied enormously in size, from the vast Auschwitz complex to those in
which Germans incarcerated but a few dozen people."

	Perhaps Goldhagen has listed a few as camps, where only one or
two trustees were stationed.

	We can see that the word "destruction" has been dropped out,
and that any place that had as little as a few dozen people is a camp.
	
	Well, anyway, it appears a number of people have gone out and
bought the book and will snuggle up with it and bring us some select
details.

	It sure was nice for the N.Y.Times to accomodate Goldhagen a
slot right in the middle of the editorial page. There must be a lot of
writers out there that would have liked to have gotten a chance at a
opportunity like that. 
	Would you ever see anything like that for a Holocaust
revisionists of the denier kind? Well you can't go around and have our
newspapers accomodating anti-Semites, racist and neo-Nazis can we?



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 13 11:56:16 PDT 1996
Article: 30846 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:58:53 GMT
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libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Yale F. Edeiken (yawen@enter.net) wrote:
>: >   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>: >  
>: >  
>: >  Goldhagen's statement: "It has been documented that more than 10,000
>: >  camps for the incarceration and destruction of Jews and non-Jews".
>: >
>: 
>: 	I doubt,  L'il Tommy, that this was his statement.  It is a sentence 
>: fragment.  People like Goldhagen tend to write in a grammatically correct manner. 
	"People like Goldhagen"? 
>:  Now quote the mane correctly and in context so that those with a working 
>: knowledge of the English language can discover what he said and in what 
>: context.
>
>It should be remembered, too, that when Moran originally posted excerpts
>from the Goldhagen article, he dishonestly edited this statement so that
>it read "more than 10,000 camps for the...destructions of Jews" and so
>on.  In spite of his and Giwer current claims to the contrary, it's 
>obvious that Moran knew Goldhagen wasn't claiming that all of the camps
>were extermination centers.
>
>Or anyway, it's obvious to me.  If Moran can suggest another reason for
>his excision of the words "incarceration and," I'm willing to listen.
>
>Bill



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 13 11:56:17 PDT 1996
Article: 30847 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:59:02 GMT
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Laura Finsten  wrote:

>I haven't actually got to the stuff about camps and camp personnel, but Goldhagen's
>analysis of antisemitism in Germany before and during the Nazi era is really
>interesting.  Mr. Moran, you might be interested to know that Goldhagen describes
>his research as "revisionist history".   

	Maybe you would like to take a shot at explaining what he
means by "revisionist history". What revisions?   




From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 13 11:56:18 PDT 1996
Article: 30848 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:16:22 GMT
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Laura Finsten  wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>[edit]
>
>>	The above are the main body of camps that the Holocaust story
>>strives to document as extermination camps, for the "incarceration and
>>destruction of Jews ..."
>>	None of the material put out by the Holocaust promotion
>>network lists any of  the below as "camps" for the "destruction of
>>Jews ..."
>
>Mr. Moran, I have cited from Goldhagen's book elsewhere.  Despite
>your claims, Goldhagen does *not* say that there were 10,000
>camps for the extermination of Jews.  If you insist on putting
>these words into his mouth (or reading them into his book), I
>suggest that you go to the book and back up your assertion with
>quotations.  Until you do this, there is no reason to continue
>with this nonsensical charade.

	"...10,000 camps for the incarceration and destruction of Jews
and non-Jews", his exact words in the the N.Y.Times.
	Just keep snuggling up with his book and give us a report.

>[labour camps deleted]
>
>
>>>Euthansia facilities
>>Not familiar with these names. Perhaps there is some eyewitness
>>testimony?
>>> Bernberg
>>> Brandenberg-Havel
>>> Grafeneck
>>> Hadamar
>>> Hartheim-Linz
>>> Sonnenstein
>
>Yes, there is eyewitness testimony.  Franz Stangl, who was commandant
>at Treblinka, and had earlier worked as head of construction at Sobibor,
>worked in the euthanasia programme at, I believe, Hadamar.
>
>>>Ghettos
>>The term used in the grand assertion is "camps".
>
>Please refer to my post elsewhere directly quoting what Goldhagen
>says.  The common denominator of all the locations is that Jews
>and/or others were held against their will, with sharply curtailed
>freedoms, in all the locations in question.  Do they have to have
>had tents to be "camps", Mr. Moran?
>
>>> Bialystok
>>> Bolimow
>>> Chmielnik
>>> Chocz
>>> Crakow
>>> Czestochowa
>>> Deblin
>>> Glowno
>>> Jedrzejow
>>> Koaminek
>>> Kolo
>>> Kutno
>>> Lodz
>>> Lutomiersk
>>> Pinczow
>>> Piotrkow
>>> Plonsk
>>> Radomsko
>>> Siedlice
>>> Tomaszow
>>> Tuliszkow
>>> Warsaw
>>> Wloclawek
>>> Wolomin
>>> Zdunska Wola
>>> Zychlin
>
>>>Internment camps
>> Okay, "incarceration" camps. But no "destruction".
>
>Yup, and Goldhagen doesn't say that there was, either.  Why don't you
>read that book before you start whining about what you think it says?
>
>[edit]
>
>>All we need now is a little "documented" as to what is left, after
>>eliminating such places under "ghettos", "interment camps", "Sahara
>>camps" and "labor camps". 
>>	What the deal requires is 1/2% of 10,000 "camps" "documented"
>>as "destruction" centers.
>
>No, you have chosen to assume a definition of camps that is not the
>same definition as Goldhagen's.  You have chosen to assert that
>Goldhagen calls all of these "destruction" centres, implying it
>seems that they were some form of extermination camp.  This is not
>what Goldhagen says.  This whole exercise is absurd.  Read his book,
>read the source about camps that he uses, and then you'll have 
>something to say on the matter. 
>
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 13 18:34:18 PDT 1996
Article: 30851 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Yeger Interrogation continues..
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 13:19:51 GMT
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:


	Very clear. Almost as if it was written out before, or just
written out and stated to be testimony.

	It says, as other accounts, a rail spur from the Treblinka
Station was put into the camp 6 kilometers away. Rail spur, 6
kilometers long? Wheres the remains?

	The testimony says the camp was a quadrangle. Don't other
accounts say it was triangular?

	The account says Jews were brought in from every occupied
country in Europe. Don't some accounts say it was basically for the
Jews of Poland?

	The figures here for the total deaths are 2,000,000. Aren't
other figures put at 900,000?

	It is stated that 2,000 to 5,000 people a day were
esterminated. It is said they were buried in pits and covered over
"losely" with soil. It doesn't say anything like other accounts that
says the graves were eventually dug up and burned and then reburied.
It does say it all took place right there on the compound. The other
accounts tell of the killing, burying, redigging, burning and
reburying, of the thousands a day. Any physical evidence of such a
awesome undertaking? No.

	Five or six months ago, the Simon Wiesenthal Center listed
what they say were death camps. The listing included all the usual
camps currently pressed as extermination camps, including Treblinka.
It was possible to click up each camp for further comment, but
clicking Treblinka induced nothing. Now the Simon Wiesenthal Center
doesn't even list Treblinka among its list of extermination camps.

	Anyone have any idea why?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 13 18:34:19 PDT 1996
Article: 30852 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: WANTED - Examples of chutzpah
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 13:23:31 GMT
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	Five or six months ago, the Simon Wiesenthal Center listed
what they say were death camps. The listing included all the usual
camps currently pressed as extermination camps, including Treblinka.
It was possible to click up each camp for further comment, but
clicking Treblinka induced nothing. Now the Simon Wiesenthal Center
doesn't even list Treblinka among its list of extermination camps.

	Anyone have any idea why?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 13 18:34:19 PDT 1996
Article: 30853 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hollywood - Capital of Degradation
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 13:33:10 GMT
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	Drugs, kinky sex, glitter, chase scenes, musclemen as heroes,
special effects, flaming infernos, fame seeking, crawling, begging,
selling of souls, collapsed spirits, insanity, box office receipts. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 13 18:34:20 PDT 1996
Article: 30857 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news1.erols.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hebrew Huggems
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:26:28 GMT
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	Keep an eye out for these Hebrew characteristics.
Hebrews have a problem with controlling their body language. 
They either jam their hands deep into their pockets or fold their arms
in front of them in a self hugging stance, to keep their hands from
flailing about. They also shuffle in place.
	Ah yes the huggems, the Larry King syndrome.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 14 09:26:25 PDT 1996
Article: 30974 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:34:16 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:41:58 GMT, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John
>Morris) wrote:
>
>> I have done even
>>better, and it was dead easy to do except for the chore of keying them
>>in. As a result, I have a list of more than two hundred. I only
>>stopped because I got tired of doing it.
>
>I'm awfully sorry. The list presented is not "more than two hundred."
>I stopped typing at number 122 (1.22%).

	Already the Holocaust promotion team has had to resort to
hedging and gleening on naming camps. This is for only the first
"1.22%". We can expect some real wacky examples for the next 98.78%.
	Perhaps they will have to resort to dubbing each barracks at
Auschwitz as a "camp". 
	Keep typing Morris. Pass out your stuff on campus.

>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 14 09:26:28 PDT 1996
Article: 31024 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:00:25 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Sigh. Moran, I asked you a simple question.
>
>You claimed Zyklon gasses off very slowly, over a 24-hour period.
>
>This contradicts not only what I posted, but also what
>your fellow revisionazis now claim.
>
>So what is your source? You *do* have a source for your claim,
>right?
>
>I don't mean your speculations. I mean hard technical source;
>for instance, a manual, a chemistry book, etc.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.


Well there you go again professor. Getting yourself up in a huff. Is
this the statement which you twisted around in your mind?:

	"In a report by the Polish government on studies done to
detect any chemical traces at Auschwitz today, they state that the
fumigation process would take twenty four hours "and even longer".
This would show that Zyklone B was designed for slow extended release
in order to maintain a level of the agent in the chambers atmosphere."

	Is this the passage that incited you write:
>You claimed Zyklon gasses off very slowly, over a 24-hour period.

	Now maybe you can show it all right here.
 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
 Writing "Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in
blood" at the end of a message does not make the message true. Is 
that right professor?
>-Lu Xun.
>D.Keren


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 14 13:16:56 PDT 1996
Article: 31058 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Ken Mcvay: Professional Liar
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:05:17 GMT
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bn857@freenet.toronto.on.ca (Milton Kleim) wrote:

>
>Need anything more be said?

	Yes. The word "professional" is incorrect. It implies
worthyness. Amateur is more appropriate. Unless you mean to say he is
paid for it.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 14 13:16:57 PDT 1996
Article: 31061 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Krema picture including vents.
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:09:57 GMT
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	Eventually got around to checking this out. Crema II? 
	A photograph in "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp"
sponsored by Simon Wiesenthal Center, show the back side of Crema II,
which clearly shows some sizable sanitary canals that run parallel to
the full length of the building. They are about 10 feet across and
have walkways about four feet across transversing them. The first
canal seems to be about 30 or 40 feet away from the backside. The
backside being considered the side away from the ell structure.
	This system should be apparent even in the over all aerial
photograph of the camp but they aren't. The should be a dominant
factor in this photo, but there not. 
	The row of dark patches said to be "vents" look more like
brush. The texture of the "vents" is similar to the proximate foliage.
	The row is not perpendicular as a right angle to building
which would mean the holes are cockeyed or the under ground "chamber"
is built cockeyed, and the vents straight in line with the cockeyed
angle.
	The dark line marked as "dressing room" is a dark line,
period.
	The obscure dark line identified as a "possible cremation pit"
is humorous. If it was it could be determined, especially being pin
pointed like that. But alas, it is only titled "possible".
	Another major problem with matching the two photopraghs as one
in the same building is the chimneys don't correspond.

	No wonder the Holocaust promotional network avoids making big
ado over photographs as strong points for the story.





From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 14 13:16:58 PDT 1996
Article: 31062 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:12:18 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:22:44 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	Moran has posted a detailed critique of the above report.
>>There has been some disagreement. Moran has responded with referrences
>>to the report and coherent questions and answers. Moran is confident
>>on what he has posted, and on what he has responded with and stands
>>pat. 
>
>Well, Moran, has Moran given you any advice on the state of your
>mental health?
>
>Oh dear, Moran, I just insulted Moran. Will Moran start complaining
>about that, Moran? Or can Moran keep Moran under control? Always? Only
>sometimes? Moran, you should tell Moran that he has insulted others in
>terms just as ugly as those with which he has been insulted. Can you
>pass that message on to Moran? I am talking to Moran now aren't I, and
>not to Moran? Does Moran mind when you call yourself Moran? Or do you
>do it only when he is "asleep?"

	Morris, Moran does not feel insulted at all. I like it. Insult
in lieu of direct response is the sign of a loser. You must be the one
thats uptight. You trying to make Moran uptight, shows you to be in a
fit.

	Look into the monitor, Morris. You are getting sleepy. You are
at peace. Now tell yourself your not tense, angry, upset, vibrating,
shuddering and impotent. Tell yourself:  Hey wait a minute, its Moran
I'm supposed to be getting mad, not me. This chutzpah is wrecking me.

>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 14 13:16:59 PDT 1996
Article: 31063 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ministry of Love
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:36:12 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


======
Update
======

Reuter Information Service,  April 12, 1996. 
                      ------------------
LOS ANGELES - Actor Marlon Brando, who sparked a storm of criticism
for saying Hollywood is run by Jews, broke down and wept when he met
on Friday with Jewish leaders to apologize for his comments in a
television interview.

"It took 30 to 45 seconds before he was able to compose himself,
" Rabbi Marvin Hier said of the movie star with whom he met for 
three hours on Friday morning.

"Mr. Brando broke down and cried ... to show his affection for 
Lew Wasserman and other people who are his idols," Hier said,
referring to the chairman emeritus of MCA, the parent company of
Universal Pictures.

                          --------------

	Well, so much for Marlon. So much for all his tough guy roles.
The real Marlon falls to his knees in front of the whole world.
        A yes, Follywood. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 14 13:17:00 PDT 1996
Article: 31064 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Huggems
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:06:35 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>
>>	Keep an eye out for these Hebrew characteristics.
>>Hebrews have a problem with controlling their body language. 
>>They either jam their hands deep into their pockets or fold their arms
>>in front of them in a self hugging stance, to keep their hands from
>>flailing about. 
>
>Have you hugged your h*brew today??? We do, frequently!
>Shalom

Huber, stay away from my posts.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 14 13:17:00 PDT 1996
Article: 31066 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:10:59 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <31710758.3604617@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <316d146d.4061484@news.pacificnet.net> <4kjgga$i5f@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4koq0n$54c@dub-news-svc-1.compuserve.com>
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100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>In article <316d146d.4061484@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>	This is a repost. It was once titled "Open Gallon of Paint,
>>Paint One Door, Throw the Rest Away". It is now being reposted in
>>regards to professor Keren's calling Moran a liar in another current
>>post "Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today". 
>
>>	Since no numerical difference is cited between the 40%, and
>>the "even faster" gassing rate for Zyclone B in the first 1/2 hour, we
>>are left with an indefinite.
>
>>	The popular times given for the extermination process are from
>>5 to 10 minutes. Giving the Holocaust position the benefit of the
>>numerical numbers, lets make it 10 minutes.
>
>>	Putting the figures together we come out needing only 33% of
>>50%, or more precisely, 15% of the readily used product to attain the
>>goal of mass extermination in the time frame claimed.
>
>With 40% in 30 mn, you could get 15.66 % in 10 mn, instead of your
>allegedly, with 50% in 30mn, 15% in 10 mn.
>
>>	Right here we can see that the product is inefficient for
>>short term application. Only 15% is used for the intended purpose with
>>the other 85% being useless - wasted - lingering, left over to
>>complicate the ventilation of the chamber, the unloading of the bodies
>>and the preparation for the new batch.
>
>Your "inefficient" product will give, with the very underestimate
>15.66%, a level of 1.79g/m^3 (940g, 525 m^3). This is more than
>1300ppm: 350ppm only is lethal in 10mn.
>
>It's a shame that the Nazis were less boried than you by the waste.
>
>>	In a report by the Polish government on studies done to detect
>>any chemical traces at Auschwitz today, they state that the fumigation
>>process would take twenty four hours "and even longer". This would
>>show that Zyklone B was designed for slow extended release in order to
>>maintain a level of the agent in the chambers atmosphere. 
>
>You put apart the other forms of Zyklon and suppose that human beings
>are killed with the same levels and in the same time than lice. That's
>false.
>
>>It seems that it should be a whole lot
>>less, considering that the agent was designed to maintain a release
>>over a 24 hour period. Who knows, maybe it is more like 5, 10 or 15
>>percent in the first half hour.
>
>Yes, who knows ? If the revisionnist German Rudolf said 40%, and Moran
>5%, who knows ? It was perhaps 0% ?

	Show where Moran said 5%, in the first half hour. Failing to
this, it will show that you tell yourself conveniences.

>>	The professor didn't find it necessary to correct the basic
>>arithmetic.
>
>It sounds natural. You're beyond that.
>
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 14 13:24:04 PDT 1996
Article: 17310 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Ken Mcvay: Professional Liar
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:05:17 GMT
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bn857@freenet.toronto.on.ca (Milton Kleim) wrote:

>
>Need anything more be said?

	Yes. The word "professional" is incorrect. It implies
worthyness. Amateur is more appropriate. Unless you mean to say he is
paid for it.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 14 13:46:14 PDT 1996
Article: 31070 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ministry of Love
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 16:37:34 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Under the "update" to the original post, which accurately
predicted the the contents of the update, the following sentence
appears:
"Mr. Brando broke down and cried ... to show his affection for 
Lew Wasserman and other people who are his idols," Hier said,
referring to the chairman emeritus of MCA, the parent company of
Universal Pictures."
	A more accurate detail on the "other people" should be taken
as meaning 'other Jews'.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 14 13:46:15 PDT 1996
Article: 31080 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WANTED - Examples of chutzpah
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:01:59 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:22:50 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>>tom moran  wrote:
>>
>># Five or six months ago, the Simon Wiesenthal Center listed
>># what they say were death camps. The listing included all the usual
>># camps currently pressed as extermination camps, including Treblinka.
>># It was possible to click up each camp for further comment, but
>># clicking Treblinka induced nothing. Now the Simon Wiesenthal Center
>># doesn't even list Treblinka among its list of extermination camps.
>>#
>>#	Anyone have any idea why?
>>
>>On what do you base your claim that the SWC doesn't list Treblinka
>>as an extermination camp?
>
>His vivid imagination. Here is what the SWC page says as of about one
>minute ago:
>
>EXTERMINATION CAMPS 
>     Nazi camps for the mass killing of Jews and others (e.g. Gypsies,
>     Russian prisoners-of-war, ill prisoners). Known as "death camps,"
>     these included: Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek,
>     Sobibor, and Treblinka. All were located in occupied Poland. 
>
>Am I crazy or do I see Treblinka listed there? Anyone else see it, or
>do my eyes deceive me?
>
>For those who do not understand the complex concept of "pointing their
>rigii" at web pages, I include the following URL:
>
>    http://www.wiesenthal.com/resource/gloss.htm#18

Okay, heres the gist of the matter.
=================================================================
>It is true, however, that there is no current link to a separate
>Treblinka web page. Obviously they have not finished writing it.
=================================================================

	Well all we have to do is wonder why they are having such a
hard time "writing" on it, and then we have to wonder why they took it
off the main "Glossary".
	Evidentally Simon Wiesenthal and his emminent seconds in
command, Rabbis Foxman and Cooper are weaning themselves away from the
Treblinka connection. First listing it without anything to click up,
then they take it off the listing of the main "Glossary" and relegate
it to "htm#18. Ah yes, Auschwitz is there among the main list of
course, and Chelmno, Madjenick and a few others, but no Treblinka.
	Of course Bergen Belsen, Buchenwald and a number of other
places were once part of the Holocaust story said to have been
extermination camps, and now they are gone.
	Whats up? Has someone given notice again that more downward
revisions are in store?
	Its only a matter of time, bye, bye Auschwitz.
	 
>Does the perfidy of the Jews know no bounds?
>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 14 13:46:16 PDT 1996
Article: 31093 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What is "chutzpah"?
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:46:57 GMT
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	It's someone putting a big spoon full of reeking diarrehic
        doo doo up to your mouth and telling you it's honey.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 14 14:30:21 PDT 1996
Article: 31111 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:10:28 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <31710747.3588140@news.pacificnet.net>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>
># "In a report by the Polish government on studies done to
># detect any chemical traces at Auschwitz today, they state that the
># fumigation process would take twenty four hours "and even longer".
>
>Yes, they say this. 
>
># This would show that Zyklone B was designed for slow extended release
># in order to maintain a level of the agent in the chambers atmosphere." 
>
>These 2 lines above. Are they yours, or theirs? 

	Yes. Now what?

>The fact that fumigation takes a long time doesn't mean that
>the release is slow; it means that the clothes have to kept
>in the chamber for a long time. If the release was so slow,
>it would take a long time before it reached the concentration
>necessary to kill the lice, bugs etc.

	

>One more time: do you have a technical source that explicitly 
>states that the release was slow? Not that fumigation takes a
>long time. We know this. 

	My source is reasoning on why they would suspend it in the
pellets. My source is my reasoning it would have to be kept fed into
the atmosphere of the chamber to make sure it didn't all just sink
down and settle on the top of the articles to be fumigated. My source
is reasoning that the air inside any chamber would be still and free
of currents that would tend to evaporate anything on a ready basis. My
source is my reasoning that after a initial time, the air would become
near saturated with the gas and subsequent evaporation would be slowed
down further. Like Latex paint drying either in a hot dry format or a
cooler high humidity format. 
	On the same order as moth balls, only faster. Mothballs being
designed for release over months, and the Zyklon B being designed for
release over a period of hours. Extended release. Not all at once. 
	What does the patent say? Wasn't it you that said you were
planning to post the patent?

>Do you have such a source? Yes or no? It's a very simple
>question. Can you finally answer it?
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 14 19:14:25 PDT 1996
Article: 31113 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Little German Babies
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:10:10 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <31710739.3573475@news.pacificnet.net>
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karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>
>>>Um... Matt?  Germany kind of, well, singled itself out, y'know?
>
>>	For anti-semitism?  
>
>Actually, for genocide. Other nations assisted: Germany initiated.
>
>Goldhagen's book is about Germans. That's the scope of his research. It's
>a hefty book, x+622 pages. I don't know how simple it would have been to
>integrate Austria into the study; obviously, sharing a language and a 
>border, Germany and Austria had some common culture, but they are distinct
>states with distinct histories. Certainly more books could be written on
>the respective attitudes of ordinary citizens of other nations toward the
>Holocaust. Goldhagen didn't write those books. His book is about Germans,
>and it's brilliant. To criticize it for being about Germans rather than 
>about Austrians or Italians is inane. It's a variant of the Holocaust
>deniers' tired old "So what about Stalin?" tactic.

	I never have seen a '"So what about Stalin"' tactic. Was it by
one single individual, or is it a major theme of revisionism? You have
it in quotes. Does this mean you have the exact identification of a
individual.
	Just to say '"So what about Stalin"' would insinuate the
Holocaust happened. It is funny though, the Holocaust seems to be the
only terrible thing that happened in history, and yet most of the
accounts are bull. Stupid world.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 14 19:14:26 PDT 1996
Article: 31126 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran Lies Again (Re: WANTED - Examples of chutzpah)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:55:05 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <31711106.6083328@news.pacificnet.net>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>John Morris  wrote:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>## tom moran  wrote:
>
>### Now the Simon Wiesenthal Center doesn't even list Treblinka
>### among its list of extermination camps.
>
>## On what do you base your claim that the SWC doesn't list
>## Treblinka as an extermination camp?
>
># His vivid imagination. Here is what the SWC page says as 
># of about one minute ago:
>#
>#  EXTERMINATION CAMPS 
>#     Nazi camps for the mass killing of Jews and others (e.g. Gypsies,
>#     Russian prisoners-of-war, ill prisoners). Known as "death camps,"
>#     these included: Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek,
>#     Sobibor, and Treblinka. All were located in occupied Poland. 
>
>Ooops, Mr. Moran. Seems you lied again. Bad, bad boy. As if
>forging the testimonies of Prufer and Dr. Muench wasn't bad
>enough. Naughty, naughty. Is this what Faurisson meant when he 
>said that "revisionism is the great intellectual adventure of
>the century"?

This response below to Morris is befitting for you.


                       -----------------
Okay, heres the gist of the matter.
=================================================================
>It is true, however, that there is no current link to a separate
>Treblinka web page. Obviously they have not finished writing it.
=================================================================

	Well all we have to do is wonder why they are having such a
hard time "writing" on it, and then we have to wonder why they took it
off the main "Glossary".
	Evidentally Simon Wiesenthal and his emminent seconds in
command, Rabbis Foxman and Cooper are weaning themselves away from the
Treblinka connection. First listing it without anything to click up,
then they take it off the listing of the main "Glossary" and relegate
it to "htm#18. Ah yes, Auschwitz is there among the main list of
course, and Chelmno, Madjenick and a few others, but no Treblinka.
	Of course Bergen Belsen, Buchenwald and a number of other
places were once part of the Holocaust story said to have been
extermination camps, and now they are gone.
	Whats up? Has someone given notice again that more downward
revisions are in store?
	Its only a matter of time, bye, bye Auschwitz.
	 
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr 15 07:15:12 PDT 1996
Article: 31236 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: So much for eyewitnesses.
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:30:03 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 53
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>[in response to his reposted article...]
>
>> So far we have professor Keren introducing the USS
>> Liberty and Dresden.
>> 
>> and 
>> 
>>         Jamie McCarthy's, "I seem to recall seeing this exact text
>> posted in a previous article by Mr. Moran.  Has he taken to
>> time-delayed self-echo, a la Gannon?"
>
>You mean, so far _this_ time around.  Last time you posted this
>article, there was of course discussion of it.  What was said then?
>Do you remember?
>
>Do you care?
>
>Do you want to hide it from readers of your material _this_ time
>around?
>
>The revisionist technique involves a heavy dose of repetition, with
>the hope (usually correct) that no one will have the time or energy
>to dig up all previous discussion to prove that ground is being
>retread.
>
>Fortunately, modern technology makes this easier.  The reader need
>only point her or his browser to:
>
>http://smithers.dejanews.com/cgi-bin/nph-dnquery?search=thread+threaded=1+RECNUM=%3c312c95eb.386781@news.pacificnet.net%3e%231/1
>
>There, you will find (at least part of) the discussion which took
>place in late February, when Mr. Moran first posted this material.

	Moran takes note of "(at least part of it)". Jamie why don't
you post the parts, and then I'll fill in the parts you have left out.
Too bad Jamie doesn't have the stamina. He keeps wailing about
reposts. Jamie thinks Moran or any other revisionistic repost is meant
for him. Jamie can't stand the idea that reposts appear to the eyes of
the newcomer to alt.rev. Jamie doesn't realize that all he has to do
is keep reposting the denials. Its easy Jamie. 
	Jamie why do you leave out so many of Moran's posts in your
Nizkor dossier?
>Posted/emailed.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
> to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr 15 09:04:03 PDT 1996
Article: 31257 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:49:12 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 72
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>## Tom Moran writes:
>
>### This would show that Zyklone B was designed for slow extended release
>### in order to maintain a level of the agent in the chambers atmosphere." 
>
>## These 2 lines above. Are they yours, or theirs? 
>
>#	Yes. Now what?
>
>Yes what? They are yours? Then why the quotation marks in the end?

	Okay. I noticed the quotation marks at the "end". Are you
saying they were put at the end just to hoodwink someone? In that case
you should have pointed out I didn't put any at the beginning.

>## One more time: do you have a technical source that explicitly 
>## states that the release was slow? Not that fumigation takes a
>## long time. We know this. 
>
># My source is reasoning on why they would suspend it in the
># pellets.
>
>Unfortunately for you, your "reasoning" is not a technical 
>source. It is also totally and completely false, as even
>your "revisionist" pals state. Your "reasoning" contradicts
>each and every technical source I saw. 
>
># My source is my reasoning it would have to be kept fed into
># the atmosphere of the chamber to make sure it didn't all just
># sink down and settle on the top of the articles to be fumigated.
>
>"Sink down"? That would be quit a feat, as HCN is slightly
>lighter than air. Gases mix, Moran. Oxygen doesn't sink to
>the floor, for instance.
>
># What does the patent say? Wasn't it you that said you were
># planning to post the patent?
>
>According to an excerpt from the patent mailed to me (this
>is from the original, 1922 patent), most of the HCN is released
>within 10 minutes. According to "revisionist" Germar Rudoplh,
>in a temperature of 20 degrees, Zyklon-B releases 40 percent
>in the first half-hour. He seems to rely on information sent
>to him from experts in Germany; I'll try to contact them myself.
>
>There is more information to support the faster release rates;
>I'll post it soon.
>
	I notice you are now claiming that the patent reads the HCN
was released in the first 10 minutes, which you didn't use to refute
the original post about the slow extended release of HCN from the
pellets. Instead you and your brethren mustered up arguments that it
was more lethal to mammals (people) than insects and much less was
needed, and that the rest of it was recovered. Now here you are saying
"most" of the HCN was released in the first ten minutes. How
rediculous.
	

>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
Writting "Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in
blood" at the end of your statements does not make the statements
true, is that right professor?

>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr 15 09:04:04 PDT 1996
Article: 31260 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood - Capital of Degradation
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 14:15:32 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 31
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ka_strom@ix.netcom.com(Kevin Alfred Strom) wrote:

>In <316fab10.5552148@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>writes: 
>>
>>
>>	Drugs, kinky sex, glitter, chase scenes, musclemen as heroes,
>>special effects, flaming infernos, fame seeking, crawling, begging,
>>selling of souls, collapsed spirits, insanity, box office receipts. 
>
>You haven't said the half of it...
>
>How about an inverted morality in which hatred of White people is
>elevated to a moral imperative -- in which those who wish to commit
>unspeakable acts are raised to the level of moral paragons -- in which
>anything which tends to the destruction of Western Man is by definition
>good, and that which tends to our preservation is the ultimate in evil.
>
>As long as you "go with the flow," though, any form of debauchery is
>available for your delectation... _any_ form...
>
>That's Hollywood, that's New York, that's the establishment that has
>ruled America for lo these many decades.
>
>It is what a friend of mine dubbed "the evil funhouse."
>
>With all good wishes,
>
>Kevin Alfred Strom

	The "evil funhouse". Ain't it a truth. Thanks, Tom Moran.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr 15 09:04:05 PDT 1996
Article: 31271 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Milton Kleim: Amateur Liar
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:32:39 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <31724f38.585720@news.pacificnet.net>
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:


>To Milton Kleim:
>
>You have been asked, many, many times, to answer the questions which
>follow, in order to substantiate claims you have made in this
>newsgroup.  To date, you have refused to respond, other than to offer
>unsupportable claims.
>
>This is my twenty-Third request to you, asking that you respond to these
>questions, and it will not be the last. Your first and only response to
>these questions failed to address them; one can only hope your next
>attempt will include some factual evidence - something you appear reluctant
>to provide.

	McVay, your name has been mentioned over on "Cyanide Traces at
Auschwitz Today". You know about it. It implies things about your
activity in adding to a Polish report. Where are you?


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr 15 10:31:07 PDT 1996
Article: 31281 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WANTED - Examples of chutzpah
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:40:57 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 46
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>
># Five or six months ago, the Simon Wiesenthal Center listed
># what they say were death camps. The listing included all the usual
># camps currently pressed as extermination camps, including Treblinka.
># It was possible to click up each camp for further comment, but
># clicking Treblinka induced nothing. Now the Simon Wiesenthal Center
># doesn't even list Treblinka among its list of extermination camps.
>#
>#	Anyone have any idea why?
>
>On what do you base your claim that the SWC doesn't list Treblinka
>as an extermination camp?
>
>I mean, do you have an official statement from an official in the
>SWC which says this?

	Yes. Simon Wiesenthal Center, website, "Glossary".

>Be careful. Forging testimonies, as you did, is bad enough; so be
>careful not to post any more lies, slanders, or forgeries.

	You keep mentioning these alleged forgeries as a diversion.
Why don't you just post the examples and show it from there? Yale
Edeiken says he has a panel of lawyers that think with you. You could
team up with him and them. 
	STAND BY: Professor is going to post the examples of Moran's
forgeries. He is going to have plenty of help. Moran doesn't want
anyone stepping in to support him. Moran is going to take em all on.
	Ok, professor, and emminent allies, go for it.

>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 16 09:15:52 PDT 1996
Article: 31346 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What Nizkor excludes from its dossier on Moran
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 15:24:39 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <31726671.6531076@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-4.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

	
	Nizkor has a FTP dossier on Moran's posts to alt.revisionism.
They have chosen a select few of Moran's post which they think are
easy to contend with, and by their own omission of the following list
of posts, admit the material is too incriminating to their position
and that they do not have the ability to deal with them.
(See recent post by McVay, "Tom Moran: A chronicle of lies".)
			--------------------

Argumentum ad populum

Nizkor invite accepted

WHERE ARE THE PHOTOS

Holocausterclonism

BIG QUESTION III

Tom Moran is ...

PHOTOS HAVE BEEN FOUND

The Tally Thus Far

"AUSCHWITZ; A History in Photographs"

Pressac, Yes? Pressac, No? It all depends?

Zioexaggeration = 200,000,000

Debby's specifications; her own words

Where are the MASS GRAVES?

Rock and the Hard Place

ADL "friends of free speech" excepting ...

Auschwitz: The more photos I see the more I realize what ...

No Zyclone - then DDT

Zyclone B - powder, pellet, liquid?

80% of U.S. artisans would be Jewish if it wasn't for ...

COMPU SERVE LIED

SUSPICIONS

CENSORSHIP - SIMON SAYS AGAIN

The Official Nizkor Code of Responding

FREUDIAN ADMISSION of INADEQUACY

Zyklon B, unlikely agent

Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today

Jewish Holocaust - 99.999% of the story

"10,000" extermination camps - "documented"

50,000,000 "Ordinary" Germans 

Inevitably Rediculous

Just ask for Rachelle

Stupid Germans I through XI

Evil little German Babies

Ministry of Love

Wanted - Examples of "chutzpah"

Hollywood - Capital of degradation

Hebrew huggems

What is "chutzpah"?
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 16 09:15:53 PDT 1996
Article: 31377 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WANTED - Examples of chutzpah
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 14:06:35 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <317255ba.2251815@news.pacificnet.net>
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <4ks1i1$m3c@wi.combase.com>, mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>[following Mr. Litt's correction of yet another Moran-err re The SWC
>and Treblinka]
>
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps
>
>>	The following is from their FTP site on camps.  Treblinka is spelled
>>with a T is it not?

	Hilary says it is from "their" ftp. Is the above URL a
Wiesenthal ftp, or is it a NIzkor ftp?

>Amazing!  Despite the fact that he has switched his bait, the
>Giwer-troll actually knows his alphabet.  Too bad he doesn't have the
>skill to do a further search:
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/filename-search.pl?pat=Treblinka
>
>  1.camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka 
>  2.camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka / hoess-at-treblinka 
>  3.camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka / treblinka.01 
>  4.camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka / treblinka.02 
>  5.camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka / treblinka.07 
>  6.camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka / treblinka.08 
>  7.camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka / treblinka.09 
>  8.camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka / treblinka.10 
>  9.camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka / treblinka.11 
> 10.camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka / treblinka.gas 
> 11.camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka / treblinka.gas2 
> 12.camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka / treblinka.gas3 
> 13.camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka / treblinka.gas4 
> 14.camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka / treblinka.laza 
> 15.camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka / treblinka.new 
> 16.people/h/hoess.rudolf.ferdinand / treblinka-wolzek 
>
>[balance snipped]
	Okay, Hilary has let us know a "balance" has been snipped.
Hilary thinks by listing a long list that this should be proof of what
she says. Hilary is referring to Nizkor, not Simon Wiesenthal Center's
page. Thats Holocaust method #6. Make an astounding list so as to give
it a sense of validity. Nizkor could have 3,500 ftps, but it doesn't
make it valid. They could have 35,000 ftps and this would not make it
valid.
	H i g t s i i l t N, a t m i t C i. W s h t f o w t C d l i i
t m. (predicted reply)
>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/myssiwyg.html
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 16 09:15:54 PDT 1996
Article: 31379 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood - Capital of Degradation
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 14:17:11 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <31725a1e.3375800@news.pacificnet.net>
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>John Morris (jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca) wrote:
>: On Sat, 13 Apr 1996 13:33:10 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>: >
>: >	Drugs, kinky sex, glitter, chase scenes, musclemen as heroes,
>: >special effects, flaming infernos, fame seeking, crawling, begging,
>: >selling of souls, collapsed spirits, insanity, box office receipts. 
>
>: And a little talking piggy named "Babe." Don't ya just love it!
>
>Well, the Joooooooos couldn't be behind Babe, because you know pork isn't 
>kosher, right Li'l Tommy?  The Joos are just behind the BAD films. 

	We can always wonder what the film industry would have been
like with the saturation of Hebrewism.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 16 09:15:54 PDT 1996
Article: 31388 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WANTED - Examples of chutzpah
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:56:06 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 41
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>: 	Five or six months ago, the Simon Wiesenthal Center listed
>: what they say were death camps. The listing included all the usual
>: camps currently pressed as extermination camps, including Treblinka.
>: It was possible to click up each camp for further comment, but
>: clicking Treblinka induced nothing. Now the Simon Wiesenthal Center
>: doesn't even list Treblinka among its list of extermination camps.
>
>: 	Anyone have any idea why?
>
>Well, after going to the site, I would have to say that the reason for 
>the above paragrpah is that you are suffering a truly advanced case of a 
>variation of Raven's Myopia.(tm)
>
>Why?  Because I just checked the site, and lo and behold, Treblinka is 
>still right there in the list of extermination camps.  It's even still 
>just a textual listing with no link to jump to; nope, it's just as you 
>saw it months ago.
>
>This is a particularly odd lie to make, Li'l Tommy, given that it's so 
>easily disproved.  How did you "miss" Treblinka?  I mean the entry is 
>only a paragraph long, so there's not that much to read.  I'll bet your 
>finger wasn't even tired by the end of it.  Or did you even bother to go 
>to th site before writing that?

	"For those who do not understand the complex concept of
pointing their rigii" at web pages, I include the following URL:

    http://www.wiesenthal.com/resource/gloss.htm#18

It is true, however, that there is no current link to a separate
Treblinka web page. Obviously they have not finished writing it."
                                                John Morris

	The fact is it is not listed among the main page. The fact is,
there wasn't a link when it was, and now its not there, now it's been
relagated to the more obscure "htm#18".



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 16 09:15:55 PDT 1996
Article: 31406 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WANTED - Examples of chutzpah
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 14:13:27 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 45
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## On what do you base your claim that the SWC doesn't list
>## Treblinka as an extermination camp?
>
>#	Yes. Simon Wiesenthal Center, website, "Glossary".
>
>How odd. John Morris just posted an excerpt from their web site,
>in which Treblinka is, of course, listed as an extermination
>camp.
>
>You seem to claim that, in a certain web page, you clicked
>for "Treblinka" and there was no response. This is obviously due
>to either a technical glitch, or because they haven't written
>that page (or html, whatever it's called) yet.
>
>The SWC obviously does regard Treblinka as an extermination
>camp. The excerpt John Morris posted proves this. You can verify
>this by asking the historians that work there.
>
>Do you realize how pathetic you are? Do you even begin to
>realize how idiotic and childish your statements are? How
>primitive and ridiculous your method of reaching conclusions
>is? Little Tommy, he pressed the "Treblinka" icon, and there
>was nothing there, what a great victory for "revisionism"!

	Thats right. I pressed the icon when it was there, and there
wasn't anything ensuing, and now the icon doesn't even exist.

	Professor, how can you type when you get the huggems?

>It's sad, it's really sad. We're nearing 2,000 you know. One
>hoped mankind would do better by now. I'm not being sarcastic
>this time; it's really sad.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 16 12:16:22 PDT 1996
Article: 31511 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WANTED - Examples of chutzpah
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:04:24 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 3
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	Moran ask for "chutzpah", Moran gets "chutzpah".


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 16 12:16:23 PDT 1996
Article: 31512 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WANTED - Examples of chutzpah
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:02:18 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 24
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <316faaa2.5442023@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>> 
>>	Five or six months ago, the Simon Wiesenthal Center listed
>>what they say were death camps. The listing included all the usual
>>camps currently pressed as extermination camps, including Treblinka.
>>It was possible to click up each camp for further comment, but
>>clicking Treblinka induced nothing. Now the Simon Wiesenthal Center
>>doesn't even list Treblinka among its list of extermination camps.
>> 
>>	Anyone have any idea why?
>
>    Why don't you call them and ask them?

	It is my experience that Jewish organizations never respond to
tough questions. In fact they try real hard to keep them from getting
into the medias.


>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                   Quoth the Raven: "Never happened."



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 17 07:15:54 PDT 1996
Article: 31568 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Ken Mcvay: Professional Liar
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:24:38 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 26
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>bn857@freenet.toronto.on.ca (Milton Kleim) wrote:
>
>	Need anything more be said?
>
>In article <316fb3fb.7834611@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	Yes. The word "professional" is incorrect. It implies
>	worthyness. Amateur is more appropriate. Unless you mean
>	to say he is paid for it.
>
>Whereas it has been asserted that Ken McVay is a liar, no one has
>been able to prove it.  On the other hand, Mr. Moran has been proven
>to be a liar of the first rank.

	Go for it. The proof that is.

>--
>Harry Katz
>
>The pious fool, the hypocrite, and the flagellating Pharisee are
>destroyers of human society.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 17 07:15:55 PDT 1996
Article: 31622 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Nizkor excludes from its dossier on Moran
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:13:59 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <31739d06.704797@news.pacificnet.net>
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <31726671.6531076@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>	
>>	Nizkor has a FTP dossier on Moran's posts to alt.revisionism.
>>They have chosen a select few of Moran's post which they think are
>>easy to contend with, and by their own omission of the following list
>>of posts, admit the material is too incriminating to their position
>>and that they do not have the ability to deal with them.
>>(See recent post by McVay, "Tom Moran: A chronicle of lies".)
>>			--------------------
>>Argumentum ad populum
>>Nizkor invite accepted
>>WHERE ARE THE PHOTOS
>>Holocausterclonism
>>BIG QUESTION III
>>Tom Moran is ...
>>PHOTOS HAVE BEEN FOUND
>>The Tally Thus Far
>>"AUSCHWITZ; A History in Photographs"
>>Pressac, Yes? Pressac, No? It all depends?
>>Zioexaggeration = 200,000,000
>>Debby's specifications; her own words
>>Where are the MASS GRAVES?
>>Rock and the Hard Place
>>ADL "friends of free speech" excepting ...
>>Auschwitz: The more photos I see the more I realize what ...
>>No Zyclone - then DDT
>>Zyclone B - powder, pellet, liquid?
>>80% of U.S. artisans would be Jewish if it wasn't for ...
>>COMPU SERVE LIED
>>SUSPICIONS
>>CENSORSHIP - SIMON SAYS AGAIN
>>The Official Nizkor Code of Responding
>>FREUDIAN ADMISSION of INADEQUACY
>>Zyklon B, unlikely agent
>>Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
>>Jewish Holocaust - 99.999% of the story
>>"10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
>>50,000,000 "Ordinary" Germans 
>>Inevitably Rediculous
>>Just ask for Rachelle
>>Stupid Germans I through XI
>>Evil little German Babies
>>Ministry of Love
>>Wanted - Examples of "chutzpah"
>>Hollywood - Capital of degradation
>>Hebrew huggems
>>What is "chutzpah"?
>
>    Yeah, "Hebrew Huggems."  I'm still devistated.
>
>    Boy, Tommy, I hadn't realized you had started so many garbage threads. 
>    So many words...  so little reason.

	Prove it.

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                   Quoth the Raven: "Never happened."



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 17 07:15:56 PDT 1996
Article: 31623 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.sojourn.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ministry of Love
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:08:01 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 14
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	This passage from the Wiesenthal Center's news release, posted
above, is an example of how the Jews use the Holocaust to challenge
opinions about Jewish activities.

	"Marlon Brando will meet with Rabbis Marvin Hier and Abraham
Cooper, Dean and Associate Dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, on
Friday April 12 at 10:30 AM.  Following the private meeting, Mr.
Brando will tour the Center's Museum of Tolerance and will then hold a
press briefing at approximately noon."

	Ah yes. First a little tour through the Ministry of Love.
>


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 17 07:15:57 PDT 1996
Article: 31624 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.sojourn.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ministry of Love
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:07:39 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 8
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


                   The Two Sides of Marlon Brando

	Lets see, Marlon Brando got on TV and blurted out a negative
about the Jews. Of course there was the outcry, and Marlon recanted.
But yet, he did say what he said. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 17 07:15:57 PDT 1996
Article: 31625 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Repost] Tom Moran: A Chronicle of Lies (Round 4)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:07:30 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <31739b8d.327792@news.pacificnet.net>
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Nov. 8, 1993, New York Times, Letter to the Editor;

"Need to Refute the Deniers of the Holocaust"
                                                 by Deborah Lipstadt.

	"Jean Claude Pressac's book detailing how the Nazis gas
chambers at Auschwitz actually worked has elicited condemnation from a
variety of sources contending that '"genocide was possible because it
happened"'.
Deborah didn't fill the readers in on the first part of the quote for
some reason, but as it appears, her part of the quote elicits the idea
the quoter is agreeing with the story.
	Anyway, the gist of her mentality and criteria for historical
accuracy lies in her statement "They argue Pressac's book is
superfluous; the tears of the survivors should be sufficient proof."
	Let me reiterate Deborahs terse statement on historical
accounting;

     ; THE TEARS OF THE SURVIVORS SHOULD BE SUFFICIENT PROOF".

                    --------------------------

Random House Dictionary; "sufficient: adequate for the purpose,
enough".

like in; THE TEARS OF THE SURVIVORS SHOULD BE ADEQUATE FOR PROVING THE
HOLOCAUST.

or; THE TEARS OF THE SURVIVORS SHOULD BE ENOUGH TO PROVE THE
HOLOCAUST.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 17 07:15:58 PDT 1996
Article: 31626 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Repost] Tom Moran: A Chronicle of Lies (Round 4)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:07:23 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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"As Mr. Moran seems to have difficulty substantiating his
claims, it is clearly important to remind him of those which
remain unproven. This file is maintained by the author, Marty
Kelly, and will be published monthly to the net on an
automated basis. The file will be updated by the author as
often as Mr. Moran makes claims he cannot, or will not,
substantiate."
                        by Ken McVay and/or Marty Kelley
                     ---------------

	Lets see, "... it is clearly important to remind him of those
which remain umproven."  But then we did hash these subjects around,
and Moran can only wonder why they didn't introduce the sequence and
show that Moran was lieing or mistaken. Now that would be the proper
way of doing it. So what does Moran do when they post this thing?
Moran just posts the stuff in question. The initial article. Moran
also makes ado about them not having the rest of Moran's stuff in the
dreaded Nizkor FTP dossiers. Moran sees it as an admission they accept
Moran's 90% other posts as too damaging to have in the dossier, right
there in Nizkor. Actually they used to have a bit more, and Moran was
amazed they dared to put it in. Maybe they didn't have enough
intelligence to see it that way, but someone must have wised them up,
because most of the stuff was deleted.
	But Moran better be more careful because they threaten, "The
file will be updated by the author as often as Mr. Moran makes claims
he cannot, or will not, substantiate."
        'Now Tommy, you'd better be a good boy or Ken and Marty will
keep posting their dossier on you.  
	
	



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 17 07:15:59 PDT 1996
Article: 31627 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Repost] Tom Moran: A Chronicle of Lies (Round 4)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:07:19 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 42
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Nizkor indictment against Moran No. 6,

"You have some decidedly odd ideas about how many trees can fit inside

the territory of Israel."
                            ------------- 
Post by Moran that brought this on.

 "ISRAEL IS OUR ONLY PRIORITY" 
So goes the banner heading in a 1/4 page ad in the New York Times
1/23/94, under a little prelude copy that cites " -January 27, 1994-
is the New Year of the Trees."
	"Founded in 1901, the Jewish National Fund has long been
designated as the sole agency in charge of afforestation and land
reclamation in Israel."
	"JNF has planted over 200,000,000 trees throughout Israel. JNF
also builds roads and parks; prepares land for housing, agriculture
and industry ..."  the later being that area outside of the 8000 sq.
miles of the whole of Israel we would have to eliminate when trying to
figure out how many trees per sq. yard 200,000,000 trees be.

	After a little more boasterous copy we are given a sketch of a
rolling hill vista covered with trees. I wonder what a photograph
would show? Where are the photos?

	Again; N.Y.Times 1/23/94 


	As is evident, it wasn't Moran's "odd ideas about how many
trees can fit inside the territory of Israel". 

	Actually there was some exchange about the above exaggeration
culminating in one of the Nizkorettes claiming he had found
photographic evidence to substantiate the above exaggeration. He
informed Moran that a girl named Rachelle was keeping the books on
hold in the Allentown Public Library. Moran flew to Allentown -
Pennsylvania and found that no Rachelle worked there and no one ever
heard of her.
	No doubt Nizkor will avoid using that response as an example
of their refuting talents.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 17 07:16:00 PDT 1996
Article: 31628 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ministry of Love
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:07:07 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 39
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>
>: ======
>: Update
>: ======
>
>: Reuter Information Service,  April 12, 1996. 
>:                       ------------------
>: LOS ANGELES - Actor Marlon Brando, who sparked a storm of criticism
>: for saying Hollywood is run by Jews, broke down and wept when he met
>: on Friday with Jewish leaders to apologize for his comments in a
>: television interview.
>
>: "It took 30 to 45 seconds before he was able to compose himself,
>: " Rabbi Marvin Hier said of the movie star with whom he met for 
>: three hours on Friday morning.
>
>: "Mr. Brando broke down and cried ... to show his affection for 
>: Lew Wasserman and other people who are his idols," Hier said,
>: referring to the chairman emeritus of MCA, the parent company of
>: Universal Pictures.
>
>:                           --------------
>
>: 	Well, so much for Marlon. So much for all his tough guy roles.
>: The real Marlon falls to his knees in front of the whole world.
>:         A yes, Follywood. 
>
>That the same Follywood that put out a movie version of your favorite 
>book, "Big Brother"?

	Yes. Now do you have something that will follow?

>What a maroon.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 17 09:08:50 PDT 1996
Article: 31641 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is "chutzpah"?
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:14:37 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 16
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <31710eb4.5489094@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>> 
>>	It's someone putting a big spoon full of reeking diarrehic
>>        doo doo up to your mouth and telling you it's honey.
>
>    Sort of like your menorah claim you have promised to follow through on,
>    huh?

	How is that?

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                   Quoth the Raven: "Never happened."



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 17 09:08:51 PDT 1996
Article: 31642 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "Jewish scholar"?
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 14:16:37 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 18
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># person who is obsessed with Judaic things.
>
>No, that's a "revisionist scholar".

 No. A revisionists scholar is interested in undoing Jewish scholars
lies.

>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 17 09:08:52 PDT 1996
Article: 31649 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Nizkor excludes from its dossier on Moran
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 14:14:23 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 31
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jsilver@orion.it.luc.edu (Jason Silverman) wrote:

>In article <31726671.6531076@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>>         
>>         Nizkor has a FTP dossier on Moran's posts to alt.revisionism.
>> They have chosen a select few of Moran's post which they think are
>> easy to contend with, and by their own omission of the following list
>> of posts, admit the material is too incriminating to their position
>> and that they do not have the ability to deal with them.
>> (See recent post by McVay, "Tom Moran: A chronicle of lies".)
>>                         --------------------
>
>Moron,
>
>Maybe you're just too stupid for them to care.  Maybe you churn out your
>self-refuting idiocy too quickly for them to keep up.  

	Go for it. The proof that is. We can wait to see if you have
anything in particular.

>However, I think they must now add to the list of your sins: 
>
>"Using the third person to refer to himself for no apparent reason."
>
>Got a rock to sleep under tonight?
>
>
>>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 17 09:08:53 PDT 1996
Article: 31652 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:22:07 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 25
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <316dbf37.47783157@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>> 
>>>I stopped typing at number 122 (1.22%).
>> 
>>Now that your list has been dwindled down, perhaps you better start
>>typing again after getting the little rest.
>
>    1. His list has not dwindled down.  You posted nothing in your previous
>    post to show that those camps did not exist.
>
>    2. Why should he type any more in?  You have been given citations to go
>    find a full list of 10,000 camps.  If you want to see the full list, go
>    look it up for yourself.
>
	Really? Where is that? Are you saying the book has a "full
list"?


>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                   Quoth the Raven: "Never happened."



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 17 10:12:01 PDT 1996
Article: 31659 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What is a "Jewish scholar"?
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:21:23 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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	A person who is obsessed with Judaic things.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 17 11:39:24 PDT 1996
Article: 31667 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Moran said it.
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 14:57:09 GMT
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	In his intital post on the Goldhagen book, Moran ask, "Could
this be the catalyst for revisionism in Germany".

Initial part from a report by Huber:

From: ANA
To:   AIN

Subject: ANA _German historians, critics up in arms over Harvard 
professor's book_ (Associated Press)

BONN, Germany (Apr 15, 1996 6:30 p.m. EDT) -- German historians and 
critics are furiously assailing an American author for arguing that
the  Holocaust sprang from a rabid anti-Semitism that was peculiar to
Germany.

The uproar over Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's book, "Hitler's Willing
Executioners," is one of the loudest to ever to have occurred in this
country over how to explain the alleged murder of several million
Jews.

The Jews, ever getting away with chutzpah, get even more insulting and
belligerant, until the over all masses recognize it, and then poof. It
seems they live in a constant world of anxiety attack, what with the
chutzpah base, and can't stand the pressure, and keep pushing things
to a limit like a little boy crying for help.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 17 14:54:00 PDT 1996
Article: 31679 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Huggems
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 13:52:01 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 34
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <316fb872.8977710@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) demonstrates his prejudice:
>
>	Keep an eye out for these Hebrew characteristics.  Hebrews have
>	a problem with controlling their body language. They either jam
>	their hands deep into their pockets or fold their arms in front
>	of them in a self hugging stance, to keep their hands from
>	flailing about. They also shuffle in place.
>
>Watch out for these Moran characteristics:  He lies like a rug, he
>hates Jews with an irrational passion, he never admits to being wrong,
>when cornered he promises to prove what he says sometime in some
>future post that never, ever comes.

	NOt good enough. Wheres the particulars?

>
>	Ah yes the huggems, the Larry King syndrome.
>
>Ah, the hobgoblins that inhabit small minds!  I did not know that Mr.
>Moran finds it so offensive that some people put their hands in their
>pockets or cross their arms.  This certainly goes a long way in
>explaining Mr. Moran's antipathy towards Jews.

	Any attitude Moran has on Jews comes from what they do.

>--
>Harry Katz
>
>Let not your lips speak that which is not in your heart.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 17 14:54:01 PDT 1996
Article: 31683 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust Day of Rememberance
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 14:42:26 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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	Today 4/17/96 in the N.Y. Times the report on the Jews
holocaust bombing of Lebanon's vital installations for survival like
electrical power plants that operate hospitals and such with American
supplied arms, mentioned the Jews eased up for "2 minutes" in respect
for Holocaust "Day of  Rememberance. 


	In the L.A.Times "Rotunda Rite in Rememberance of Holocaust"
it was reported that the main responsible parties for supplying the
arms of terrorism to Israel gathered at the Rotunda rite in observance
or Day of Rememberance.
	"Members of Congress, Jewish leaders and five Supreme Court
justices gathered for the 15th Rotunda ceremony ..."

	It didn't say how many members of congress attended, but it
also reported that "Shortly after, the House passed, 420 - 0, a
resolution deploring individuals who deny the historical reality of
the Holocaust.
	It is probable that attempts were made to have the House ban
the right of anyone to deny the "reality" but this is all they dared
right now. But it could be a prelude.
	In the mean time our congress will be hard at work to see that
the Jews get all the things they need to continue their Holocaust in
the Mideast.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 18 07:41:30 PDT 1996
Article: 31735 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: So much for eyewitnesses.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:53:34 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On 12 Apr 1996, Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
>> Chuck Ferree writes:
>> 
>> Moran looks for any means to discredit "real historians." 
>> 
>> He takes the word of one person, against the words of thousands of eye 
>> witnesses, survivers, Liberators, and other credible researchers to 
>> dismiss out of hand the recorded testimony of people know what happened 
>> during the Holocaust, because they saw what happened. "So much for 
>> euewitnesses." Is nothing more than Moran's moronic sarcasum.
>
>Actually, Chuck, Mr. Moran is engaging in a more time-honored practice of 
>Holocaust deniers--citing someone out of context and distorting their 
>position.  Dr. Piper is the director of the Auschwitz museum, and his 
>comments about the fragmentary nature of eyewitness accounts is simply a 
>caution about the need to supplement such accounts with other evidence, 
>such as documents, physical evidence, and so on.  Piper was saying that 
>eyewitness accounts are imperfect (but still useful); Moran is twisting 
>Piper's words to imply that Piper thinks eyewitness accounts are worthless.

It seems the revisers held little esteem for any eyewitness
testimony, at least in regard to numbers, be it prisoner or SS
functionary, discounting it all in favor of deportation records from
various countries.

It seems the revisers held little esteem for any eyewitness
testimony, at least in regard to numbers, be it prisoner or SS
functionary, discounting it all in favor of deportation records from
various countries.
	In respect to the numbers, Piper referring to the deportation
records states, "Before these records were discovered, researchers had
to rely on discrepant and impercise data from testimonies and
depositions from witnesses, former prisoners, and Nazi functionaries
and on court decisions and fragmentary and incomplete records of camp
registries, archives, and other institutions".

Okay, show exactly it imlpies, "Moran is twisting Piper's words to
imply that Piper thinks eyewitness accounts are worthless."
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"We are now living in an era where the wall between news and 
>entertainment has been eaten away like the cartilage 
>in David Crosby's septum."
>	--Al Franken, in _Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot_
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 18 07:41:31 PDT 1996
Article: 31762 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Day of Rememberance
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:44:49 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 23
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EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:

>>
>>of Lebanon's vital installations for survival like
>>: electrical power plants that operate hospitals and such 
>>
>>I just read the NYT article -- the part about hospitals isn't in there.  
>
>>Did you just make it up, or did G-d come to you and reveal it in a dream?
>
>
>Channel 4 News showed footage of the bombed hospital, along with other 
>non-military targets. Only the jews would do such terrible things to 
>innocent civilians in this day & age....or do you subscribe to the 
>'collective guilt' theory? Remember israel's atrocities when the next 
>pogram against jews comes along.

	Not only this, they come right out and tell the world it was
justified. 

>Sharon
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 18 09:32:39 PDT 1996
Article: 31780 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran Sets a New Record for Lies
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:36:12 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) tries to justify his lies:
>>  
>> 
>>  	Moran had made referrence to a court case where he stated the
>>  court made a determination that the cross should be banned on the
>>  grounds it was a religious symbol and menorah should be excluded from
>>  this because it was a secular symbol.
>>  	Moran was pressed by Holocaust Defense League (HDL) to name
>>  the court case and prove what he said. Moran didn't know the name of
>>  the case but recalled it had taken place in Ohio and was handled by a
>>  U.S. Court of Appeals. Marty Kelley, one of the upper echelon of the
>>  HDL did some research and came up with a few cases, one of them
>>  matching the situation.
>
>	MORAN LIE #!:  Marty Kelly did indeed come up with case.  It did not 
>"match the situation" as its holding was the exact *opposite* of what you claimed.
>
>
>>  	He submitted a press release that somewhat clarified the real
>>  nature of the case. The full details of the case are still unknown to
>>  Moran and evidentally to the HDL since they have posted no more
>>  details on the case.
>
>	MORAN LIE #2:  While the full details of the case are unknown to 
>Moran it is becuase he is too stupid to know how to look it up.  Others did.  It 
>contradicted what Moran said.  That was accepted and everyone went on to other 
>matters.  The other details of the case -- which was not the case to which Moran 
>referred -- were unimportant and irrele3vant.
>
>> From what was revealed, it appears a ruling was
>>  made to exclude the menorah from any consideration when it came time
>>  to determine if the cross was legitimate for display.
>
>	MORAN LIE #3: This is not even close.
>
>> Evidentally the
>>  appeals court over turned the ruling, not going for the petitioning
>>  party(s)'s argument that the menorah "was beyond religion".
>
>
>	MORAN LIE #4:  This is not even close.  They refused to accept an 
>argument that the Menorah could not be considered a religious symbol.  Since 
>there was no ruling on the Memorah in the court below there was no ruling to 
>reverse.
>>  	Anyway, as it turns out, the HDL has been on Moran's heels
>>  ever since.
>
>	Of course.  That is becaue you kept promising to produce the court 
>case.  You never did.
>
>> Particularly when Moran posts something that excedes the
>>  HDL's capacity to chutzpah against. They get themselves into a huff
>>  and them resort to diverting over to the menorah situation.
>
>	MORAN LIE #5:  This is a two part lie.  First Moran has never posted 
>anything which has not been refuted except for those items which, as they are 
>written in illiterate English (example: "I am not the one decrying the Holocaust with 
>a Holocaust boasted of.") make no sense whatsoever.  Those posts were merely 
>laughed at.  The second lie, is that this is a diversion.  L'il Tommy has yet to either 
>produce his promised evidence or admit that it does not exist.
>
>> Moran has
>>  pointed out that by their focusing on this one little thing shows they
>>  in turn tacitly admit that Moran's other posts are too tough to deal
>>  with and the HDL has to resort to focusing on something they think
>>  they are capable of using to discredit Moran. Something like 'Oh. Look
>>  at that one black grain of sand on the beach. Therefore the beach is
>>  black'.
>
>	MORAN LIE #6:  Moran has been continually confronted with a large 
>number of lies as well as numerous misrepresentations, bigotry, and attempts to 
>weasel out of the predicaments his lies, misrepresentations, and bigotry that his big 
>mouth has landed him in.
>
>> Actually the HDL should thank Moran for his little faux pas,
>>  since they have used it so many times to divert attention away from
>>  and avoiding responses directly to many of Moran's posts.
>
>	MORAN LIE #7:  Each and every one of your posts has been responded 
>to directly.
>
>>  	For the most part Moran was correct in his referrence to the
>>  court case. There was a procedure to have the cross banned while
>>  excluding the menorah from any clauses used to have the cross banned.
>>  The argument that the menorah is "beyond religion" has a certain smell
>>  to it, like a spoonful of chutzpah.
>
>	MORAN LIE #8:  Moran was dead wrong.  There was no attempt to 
>"exclude" the Memorah.  It was an argument raised on appeal not as part of the 
>original case.  No one has argued that the Menorah is "beyond religion" except 
>an appellate attorney whose analogy was rejected.
>
>>  	In actuality there was considerable events that preceded this
>>  court case and Moran gave a run down on it in his initial post on the
>>  topic. Evidentally the HDL doesn't have any gripes with the rest of
>>  the accounting, which was 90% of the story, since they keep focusing
>>  on the court case exclusively.
>
>	MORAN LIE #9:  There were no such events in Moran's post.  Moran's 
>misrepresentation of the case was 1000% of his story.
>
>>  
>>  	Since Moran plans on inserting this in the future to any
>>  subsequent resurrections of the matter by the HDL, as has happened
>>  perhaps thirty times over the last couple of months, Moran is going to
>>  include a brief rundown on all the events he can recall about the
>>  nationwide attempt by the Jews to have the cross banned while pressing
>>  to have their menorah excluded from any consideration in the same.  
>
>	MORAN LIE #10:  Since Moran has yet to produce a single such 
>incident or case he can "recall" no such incident.  He can, as he does below, just 
>fabricate them.
>
>>  	
>>  	It all started around one Christmas in Beverly Hills. A cross
>>  was erected and displayed in a park that is right adjacent to Century
>>  City along Santa Monica Boulevard. Jewish forces went into the attack
>>  mode and challenged its presence. The report was made in the
>>  L.A.Times.
>
>	Reference please.  Was this the L.A. Times article written by Ms. Ostrov.
>
> The next year the same thing came up and this time the Jews
>>  in Beverly Hills defended the menorah, which was displayed in the same
>>  park, as being a "secular symbol" and should not come under the same
>>  reasoning used to ban the cross in that it was a religious symbol.
>
>	Again, provide some reference. This is just your word and that is 
>worthless.
>
>>  	Eventually, the word got around the Jewish community and the
>>  attacks on the cross rose up in other cities across the country. Moran
>>  being in the Philadelphia area one Christmas came across an article
>>  about one of the attacks were the mayor of the town stated they
>>  weren't going to allow the Jews to use the display of religious
>>  symbols "for political reasons". 
>
>	MORAN LIE #11:  No mayor of Philadelphia ever made such a 
>statement.
>. 
>>  	Moran had also in the last year or two recieved an article
>>  from an associate in Florida about a shopping center which had a
>>  policy of not allowing any religious symbols at all to be displayed,
>>  but the Jews took offense that the menorah was included in this ban.
>
>	Again no support for this statement.
>
>>  Utilizing their standard form of harrasement, they bombarded the
>>  management with letters and phone calls and demonstrated to have the
>>  menorah excluded from this ban on the grounds it is a "secular
>>  symbol".
>
>	Again no support for this statement.
>
>>  	Of course Moran's ability to amass all the events of Jews
>>  conspiring to have the cross benned while having their own religious
>>  symbol excluded is limited, but there must be many more.
>
>	MORAN LIE #12:  Moran has yet to produce a single such verifable 
>incident.  It is conceded that his abilities are limited.  They are limited by his 
>dishonesty, ignorance, illiteracy, and cowardice.
>> There is one
>>  major Christian organization that has a wide collection of Jewish
>>  attacks on their particular denomination and on the Christian
>>  community in general, but this can not be revealed at this time
>>  without their permission.
>
>	MORAN LIE #13:  Of course it cannot be revealed.  It does not exist.
>
>>  	For the Jews to assert the menorah is "secular" is putting the
>>  spoon of chutzpah to your mouths
>
>	MORAN LIE #14:  Since Moran cannot point to a single instance where 
>this has happened, his assertion that they have is a lie.
>
>> and Moran will leave out, at this
>>  time, the overwhelming amount of evidence that can be presented to
>>  show the use of the "secular" word is an insult, in anticipation the
>>  HDL will come out and try to put the spoon of chutzpah to our mouths.
>>  	Ah yes, if not "secular", then "beyond religion".  
>
>	MORAN LIE #15:  Moran will leave out such "overwhelming" evidence 
>becasue he has none.  He cannot point to a single instance where that has been 
>advocated.
>
>	Moran calls this a "showdown?"  If so he came this showdown without 
>any bullets in his gun.  And he left his pants back at the hotel.

	At least you tried to give it a try. The post stands. 

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 18 09:32:41 PDT 1996
Article: 31781 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!paladin.american.edu!solace!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Day of Rememberance
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:43:18 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <31762977.1625670@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3174ff5c.4665933@news.pacificnet.net> <17APR199611443893@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>The deplorable Tom Moran writes...
>> 
>>	Today 4/17/96 in the N.Y. Times the report on the Jews
>>holocaust bombing of Lebanon's vital installations for survival like
>>electrical power plants that operate hospitals and such with American
>>supplied arms, mentioned the Jews eased up for "2 minutes" in respect
>>for Holocaust "Day of  Rememberance. 
>
>    Havn't seen the Times today, but if you are accurately reporting this I
>    agree with your sense of irony here.
>
>>	In the L.A.Times "Rotunda Rite in Rememberance of Holocaust"
>>it was reported that the main responsible parties for supplying the
>>arms of terrorism to Israel gathered at the Rotunda rite in observance
>>or Day of Rememberance.
>>	"Members of Congress, Jewish leaders and five Supreme Court
>>justices gathered for the 15th Rotunda ceremony ..."
>> 
>>	It didn't say how many members of congress attended, but it
>>also reported that "Shortly after, the House passed, 420 - 0, a
>>resolution deploring individuals who deny the historical reality of
>>the Holocaust.
>
>    Interesting.  420 to zero.  And what is the vote like when they vote on
>    aid to Isreal?  Do they vote 420 to zero each time there is an aid to
>    Isreal vote, or do some Congressmen regularly vote against aid?  If
>    some vote against aid, why would they vote in favor of this - unless
>    they are confident it is appropriate to deplore individuals who deny
>    the historical reality of the Holocaust.
>
>    What does it feal like to be deplored by the US Government, Tommy?

	Am I deplored by the "government" or the House? Being deplored
by the House? It feels good.


>>	It is probable that attempts were made to have the House ban
>              ^^^^^^^^
>>the right of anyone to deny the "reality" but this is all they dared
>>right now. But it could be a prelude.
>
>    Got any evidence - any at all - to support your thesis that it is
>    probably attempts were made to ban free speech rights in the House on
>    this topic?  I didn't think so.  You are just spouting.  You are so
>    deplorable.

	The Jews are big in trying to stifle free speech. For any
attempts, the Jews make up 99% of the story.
>
>>	In the mean time our congress will be hard at work to see that
>>the Jews get all the things they need to continue their Holocaust in
>>the Mideast.  



>    You are once again confusing Jews with Isreal.  How deplorable of you,
>    Tommy.

	Don't forget, when you post something out here, you are
directing it to the general reader also. Here you are saying Jews are
not the story of Israel.
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                       Quoth the Raven: "420 to 0"



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 18 14:30:34 PDT 1996
Article: 31799 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WANTED - Examples of chutzpah
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:59:47 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <31762e61.2883178@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <316faaa2.5442023@news.pacificnet.net> <13APR199608413715@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <3173a7fc.3510696@news.pacificnet.net> <4l0oip$rmv@news.nyu.edu>
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>
>: >In article <316faaa2.5442023@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>: >> 
>: >>	Five or six months ago, the Simon Wiesenthal Center listed
>: >>what they say were death camps. The listing included all the usual
>: >>camps currently pressed as extermination camps, including Treblinka.
>: >>It was possible to click up each camp for further comment, but
>: >>clicking Treblinka induced nothing. Now the Simon Wiesenthal Center
>: >>doesn't even list Treblinka among its list of extermination camps.
>: >> 
>: >>	Anyone have any idea why?
>: >
>: >    Why don't you call them and ask them?
>
>: 	It is my experience that Jewish organizations never respond to
>: tough questions. In fact they try real hard to keep them from getting
>: into the medias.
>
>Several things, Li'l Tommy:
>
>(1) "Media" is plural.
>
>(2) What question have you asked that's been ducked by anyone?
>  
>(3)What haven't you ducked?  For instance, where's your proof on the 
>menorah issue?  Where's your proof on the supposed failure of Schindler's 
>List?
>
>Keep on ducking, chicken-boy.
 
Since you seem to be focused on only one or two posts out the other 30
or so, I take it you have no problem with them. Thank you for your
endoresment.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 18 14:30:37 PDT 1996
Article: 31800 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay folds to Moran's royal flush
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:25:44 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <317625f1.723691@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31750a93.7536314@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-5.pacificnet.net
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <31750a93.7536314@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>>         Mr. Green posted a Nizkor version of a report by the Poles on
>> existing cyanide traces at Auschwitz. Moran posted a critique analysis
>> to show that it was useless under "Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today".
>> Moran recognized there were passeges interjected in the report and
>> attributed them to McVay. Moran mentioned McVay by name a number of
>> times.
>>         Eventually Mr.Green and Professor Keren responded with some
>> rather emotional argument, but McVay never shows up.
>>         McVay didn't even come back and try to bluff his way out with
>> his usual pair of deuces. 
>
>
>Hmmm. Moran is babbling to Moran again. Kind of like a parrot screeching
>at its image in a mirror. 
>
>BTW, Tommy, what does "Moran posted a critique analysis" mean? That you
>are fond of tautologies and improper grammar? Not to mention, of course,
>being full of shit. You couldn't give a critical analysis of tying your
>shoes, not to mention one on the Institute  of Forensic Research's report
>on cyanide compounds in the gas chambers at Auschwitz!

	Why don't you go over there and undo it. If not, then it will
be obvious you have nothing more than what you have here. 

>I suggest you give up this "critique analysis" canard, as it makes you
>look like the pompus ass Giwer is as well as the stupid ass you already
>are.  
>
>And get some velcro shoes. 
>
>
>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 18 14:30:39 PDT 1996
Article: 31801 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Time For The Showdown
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:28:36 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <3176271a.1020231@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31750d1a.8183715@news.pacificnet.net> 
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schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote:

>I need to check with a psychiatrist, but I believe that referring to
>oneself in the third person is a classic symptom of sociopathy.
>
>
>In article <31750d1a.8183715@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>>         A number of months ago, Moran posted an account about Jewish
>> attempts to have the cross banned from public display while pushing to
>> have the menorah excluded from any, seperation of church and state
>> clause, they used as part of their attack.
>>         Moran had made referrence to a court case where he stated the
>> court made a determination that the cross should be banned on the
>> grounds it was a religious symbol and menorah should be excluded from
>> this because it was a secular symbol.
>>         Moran was pressed by Holocaust Defense League (HDL)
>
>What or who is the Holocaust Defense League? Is Moran trying to be
>humorous? Because it isn't working.
>
>[snip]
>.
>>         Anyway, as it turns out, the HDL has been on Moran's heels
>> ever since. Particularly when Moran posts something that excedes the
>> HDL's capacity to chutzpah against. 
>
>NOUN, not verb, Moran. Your insistence upon using Yiddish words is rather
>ironic. Considering that you cannot get the usage straight, it just shows
>what a ... Moran ... you are.
>
>
>[snip]
>> excluding the menorah from any clauses used to have the cross banned.
>> The argument that the menorah is "beyond religion" has a certain smell
>> to it, like a spoonful of chutzpah.
>
>Again. Interesting visual image, but incorrect usage.
>
>[snip]
>> Utilizing their standard form of harrasement, they bombarded the
>
>harassment
>
>>         For the Jews to assert the menorah is "secular" is putting the
>> spoon of chutzpah to your mouths, and Moran will leave out, at this
>> time, the overwhelming amount of evidence that can be presented to
>> show the use of the "secular" word is an insult, in anticipation the
>> HDL will come out and try to put the spoon of chutzpah to our mouths.
>
>*sigh*
> 
>Will Mr. Moran *ever* get it right?
> 
>Doubtful.
> 
>Sara

	Thanks for your admission you can't respond directly to the
components of the post.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 18 14:30:39 PDT 1996
Article: 31802 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Time For The Showdown
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:29:43 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <31762777.1112780@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31750d1a.8183715@news.pacificnet.net> <17APR199616193094@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <31750d1a.8183715@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>> 
>>	Moran was pressed by Holocaust Defense League (HDL) to name
>>the court case and prove what he said. Moran didn't know the name of
>>the case but recalled it had taken place in Ohio and was handled by a
>>U.S. Court of Appeals. Marty Kelley, one of the upper echelon of the
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>HDL did some research and came up with a few cases, one of them
> ^^^
>>matching the situation.
>
>    Jeez, Marty.  Who went and promoted YOU to "upper echelon"?  Do you now
>    get special decodes in your decoder ring, or what?

	Thanks for your admission that you can't respond directly to
the components of the post.

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>Quoth the Raven: "You know, I couldn't write this material even if I tried."



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 18 14:30:40 PDT 1996
Article: 31803 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Time For The Showdown
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:30:43 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <317627b4.1174021@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31750d1a.8183715@news.pacificnet.net> <17APR199616193094@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> 
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t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON  KEITH MURRAY) wrote:

>In article <17APR199616193094@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) writes:
> 
>>>       Moran was pressed by Holocaust Defense League (HDL) to name
>>>the court case and prove what he said. Moran didn't know the name of
>>>the case but recalled it had taken place in Ohio and was handled by a
>>>U.S. Court of Appeals. Marty Kelley, one of the upper echelon of the
>>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>HDL did some research and came up with a few cases, one of them
>> ^^^
>>>matching the situation.
>
>>    Jeez, Marty.  Who went and promoted YOU to "upper echelon"?  Do you now
>>    get special decodes in your decoder ring, or what?
>
>Wait a minute, wait a minute.  It was ZOG-IJC yesterday.  Who went and 
>formed a new secret cabal and didn't tell me about it?

	Thanks for your admission you can't respond to the components
of the post.

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 18 14:30:41 PDT 1996
Article: 31804 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Krema picture including vents.
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 12:03:44 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <31762f5d.3135448@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4kcom9$mb3@wi.combase.com> <3171071b.3544035@news.pacificnet.net>  <3173a1c9.1923967@news.pacificnet.net> <4l0p0v$rmv@news.nyu.edu>
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jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>: 	This person can rant and rave all he wants about what is shown
>: in the photographs. Take note of all the things he is saying then look
>: up the photographs and see if he isn't insulting you.
>
>Boy, that's just so much easier for you than actually refuting anything 
>he says, isn't it?  Facts scare you, don't they........

	Facts? What facts were those? Why don't you come back and set
the story straight. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 18 14:30:42 PDT 1996
Article: 31805 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WANTED - Examples of chutzpah
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 13:50:05 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <3174f673.2384129@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3173a8c2.3709469@news.pacificnet.net> <4l1e1e$6oh@news.enter.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>  
>>  	Moran ask for "chutzpah", Moran gets "chutzpah".
>>  
>>>>>
>	So you got what you asked for.  You have a complaint?

	
	All righty. Yale comes out and confirms Moran's definition of
"chutzpah".

>	--YFE 



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 18 20:36:38 PDT 1996
Article: 31823 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 13:38:15 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote:

>In article <3173a2af.2153938@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote:
>> 
>> >Mr. Moran:
>> > 
>> >Please look up the word "chutzpah." This is at least the second time you
>> >have used it incorrectly.
>> 
>>         Random House Dictionary; "chutzpa: unmitigated effrontery and
>> impudence".
>> 
>
>Close. Even so, that does not clarify your use of the word in the
>sentence, "This chutzpah is wrecking me."
> 
>There are many more accurate definitions -- most involve humor, however,
>and so I will refrain from posting them here. 

	"Refrain" from your "more accurate" definitions? Why would you
do that? 
	Alan Derchowitz's definition in his book "Chutzpah": "Like a
child you kills his parents and then pleads to the court for mercy on
the grounds he's an orphan".

>Sara



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 19 15:20:55 PDT 1996
Article: 31958 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's vision of HDL responses
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:01:21 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>	Moran got a vision that expressed his attitude on the
>Holocaust Defense League's responses.
>	It was like walking through a beautiful woods and coming
>across a bunch of disgarded beer cans strewn around. 


	Like an old torn up sofa along side the scenic road.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 19 18:44:40 PDT 1996
Article: 31965 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: jewsbriefs # 763
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:17:16 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 19
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EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:


>***********************************
>4/17/96
>Trenton NJ
>The State Division of Consumer Affairs and the State Lottery Commissiion 
>have filed suit against j*wish owned Woodbridge Financial Corp to stop it 
>from doing business in NJ. The Delaware-based company deceives lottery 
>winners into 'assigning' it their lottery earnings.
>
>The 'assignment' practice is a growing problem in NJ. The firm gives 
>winners instant cash, but charges usurious interest rates.

	Always straining their little minds for little ideas for being
parasitic.
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 19 18:44:41 PDT 1996
Article: 31985 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AUSCHWITZ: Revisionnist FAQ (1)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 14:22:49 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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	Slam dunk.
	The cream of Jean-Francois's post here is the research he has
done into the cremation rates of today's cremation facilities, which
operate much more efficiently than those of 50 years ago. Todays
cremation facilities take 1 1/2 to 2 hours to cremate just one body,
whereas the Holocaust story tellers tell us two to three bodies in one
oven could be cremated in 20 to 30 minutes 50 years ago.
	Whatever the story tellers say, today's facts are there for
the investigation, and the Holocaust facts for yesterday deny today's
facts. A simple phone call to any local crematory can undo any
Holocaust facts on cremation rates.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 19 18:44:41 PDT 1996
Article: 31986 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is Nizkor?
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 14:46:37 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	In other words, McVay is being used. No problem for McVay. He
can be bought. A few bucks in his pocket alleviates any ethical
reservations.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 20 09:01:50 PDT 1996
Article: 32019 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "Jewish scholar"?
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 12:55:10 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>
># No. A revisionists scholar is interested in undoing Jewish 
># scholars lies.
>
>"Jewish scholars"? What about non-Jews who say that the Nazis
>were mass murderers? Quite a few of those, you know.
>
>And, moreover, the way little Tommy Moran "undoes Jewish lies"
>is by forging testimony of Holocaust witnesses, like Dr. Muench!
>
>What a guy.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.

	For a "professor" you certainly take the unempirical road to
making a point. Heres how you should be doing it. You post the suspect
forgeries, and then show that they were. Go for it.


>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 20 09:01:50 PDT 1996
Article: 32035 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WANTED - Examples of chutzpah
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 12:48:29 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>	Moran ask for "chutzpah", Moran gets "chutzpah".
	Not only Moran got "chutzpah", but anyone reading it, outside
of those who practice it of course.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 20 14:00:54 PDT 1996
Article: 32088 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "Jewish scholar"?
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 14:02:33 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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	Well the professor is a little more honest than I was
thinking. He could have made it look like I was trying to pull a fast
one by taking the obvious difference of color or bullets out of the
original post. Anyway, from my particular set up, using Agent 99. the
professor's post is in black and my inserts are in blue. Hardly
indicating that I was trying to pull a fast one and trying to dupe
anyone.
	Now professor, if I was trying to dupe anyone, wouldn't I have
made it appear to be all your post? Wasn't it all right there as
component of the thread below your original posting?
	Who is really the one trying to pull off a scam here
professor? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 20 14:00:55 PDT 1996
Article: 32090 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AUSCHWITZ: Revisionnist FAQ (1)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 14:12:04 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <3178ef72.3704746@news.pacificnet.net>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>
># Whatever the story tellers say, today's facts are there for
># the investigation, and the Holocaust facts for yesterday deny
># today's facts. A simple phone call to any local crematory can 
># undo any Holocaust facts on cremation rates.
>
>Interesting; both Mike Stein and John Morris did exactly what
>you suggest here - called a crematory operator and asked.
>
>The answer was that, if you don't use a coffin and you don't
>mind if the remains are not "whitened", you can drastically
>reduce the cremation time. There's also the matter of the
>continuous cremation - you save time if the furnace is already
>blazing hot.

	Now professor, when you say Stein and Morris called, they
found out that, barring certain things, "you can drastically reduce
cremation time". Now I take it that the quoted words are your's. Could
you give a numerical time unit that would further define what
"drastically" means? 


>They posted this here, a few times.
>
>The crematory operator Mike Stein called said another interesting
>thing. That fire can, indeed, come out from the crematorium
>chimney, as opposed to what "revisionists" claim. The phenomena
>even has a name - when this happens, it's called a "candle".
>
>You know, Moran, I watch your articles in amazement. It doesn't 
>matter what you write about, you always - always - get it wrong.
>You must be one of the stupidest people on the face of the Earth.
>
>I was wondering, how old are you and what did you do/are still
>doing for a living? Naturally, this is personal information, 
>and it'll be understood if you don't want to share it - I'm
>just curious.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 21 10:17:55 PDT 1996
Article: 32166 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 13:22:29 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <317a365b.1609851@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <316d146d.4061484@news.pacificnet.net> <3178E1DE.2743@kaiwan.com>  <4lctd6$9pb@wi.combase.com> 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>
>[To Jamie McCarthy]
>
># Golly cheez whiz Batman, now we have a wood burning internal
># combustion engine to replace the diesel engine from a Russian tank. 
>
>No, you crazy old drunkard. Learn to read. Jamie McCarthy is *not*
>the one suggesting that these wood-burning engines were used. It
>was "revisionist" Greg Raven who offered they would have been
>more efficient than internal combustion engines.
>
># What in the hell do you think you are making up as you go 
>                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
># along that
>
>It's not him, dopey. It's Greg "Hitler was a great man" Raven,
>a "leading revisionist scholar", who suggested that these engines
>would have been used. 
>
># anyone but a fellow holohugger will believe?  Only a holohugger
># would be stupid enough to believe your crap.
>
>Only one of your fellow Nazihuggers could misread a text like you
>did. Only a fellow Nazihugger.
>
Poor professor. Worse yet, poor poor, the professors students.

>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 21 10:17:56 PDT 1996
Article: 32170 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "Jewish scholar"?
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 13:45:56 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <317a3bc8.2998905@news.pacificnet.net>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>
># Well the professor is a little more honest than I was
># thinking. He could have made it look like I was trying to pull a fast
># one by taking the obvious difference of color or bullets out of the
># original post. Anyway, from my particular set up, using Agent 99. the
># professor's post is in black and my inserts are in blue. Hardly
># indicating that I was trying to pull a fast one and trying to dupe
># anyone.
>
>I don't see any colors with the articles on my workstation. But
>this is irrelevant; I am not claiming that Moran, necessarily,
>tried to make it look as if the forged text was mine. He just
>posted it as if it was a part of the original testimony, without
>saying it was his invention.
>
># Who is really the one trying to pull off a scam here professor? 
>
>Tom Moran, who "fixed" the testimony by adding questions and
>answers that he invented and that did not exist in reality.
>
	I'll just take note of the professor's "I am not claiming that
Moran, necessarily, tried to make it look as if the forged text was
mine."



>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 21 10:17:57 PDT 1996
Article: 32171 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 13:41:28 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <317a3a07.2550332@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <316d146d.4061484@news.pacificnet.net> <14APR199607151245@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <3173a37c.2359523@news.pacificnet.net> <31788217.4109@kaiwan.com> 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Greg Raven   wrote:
>
># Without having seen Keren's original post, I would make these 
># observations:
>#
># 1) We have been told that the entire gassing procedure took less 
># than 30 minutes, meaning that only some fraction of the 40% Keren
># cites (if accurate) would be available for killing people. 
>
>The 40% is from a "revisionist" source. As noted, there is technical
>information (the original Zyklon patent) which supports a much
>faster rate of release. I'm currently trying to get the exact
>figure for Zyklon-B.

	This would be Dr. Roeseller (spelling uncertain). This is the
figure Keren used as a conponent for arguing his side in a prior post.
"Even revisionist Dr. Roeseller ...40% ..." 

># It should be noted that in the California gas chamber, 
># where the HCN-based poison is dropped into a weak acid solution directly 
># beneath the chair of the condemned man, it takes 8 to 10 minutes 
># for the condemned man to die. 
>
>Just out of curiosity, where is this "8 to 10 minutes" figure from?
>
># This is in a small, specially-built room, using higher 
># concentrations of HCN than we are lead to believe were used in the
># alleged gas chambers at Birkenau.
>
>Not necessarily. The SS used a rather high concentration. But, due
>to the difference between Zyklon and methods used today in execution
>gas chambers, it may have taken a longer time for everyone to die; but
>this wouldn't disturb the SS-men too much.

	Is the professor now saying that the Zyklon B used was
especially potent in relation to its usual content?
>
># 2) After the 15 to 30 minute "gassing" that is spoken of in "eyewitness" 
># accounts, the Zyklon B would still be gassing off, so that in 
># addition to residue gas in the air, in the corpses, and on the
># surfaces of the room and the victims, there would be more than 
># half the killing potentiol remaining in the Zyklon B.
>
>No problem if gas masks were used or, as in Kremas II and III,
>the Zyklon was taken out via the wiremesh devices after the victims
>died.
>
># 3) Germany had faster-acting substances (such as Sarin) if they needed 
># something with which to kill people. 
>
>20-30 minutes was fast enough; the bottleneck, anyway, was the
>cremation, not the killing itself. Now, if Mr. Greg "Hitler was a 
>great man" Raven wants to convince us that Sarin was as easy
>to transport, store, use, and ventilate as Zyklon-B and HCN
>were, let him proceed. BTW, why isn't Sarin used in execution
>gas chambers in the US? Moreover, what type of gas were the
>SS more familiar with: Sarin or HCN? Lastly: since there was
>an attempt to keep the murder process secret, wouldn't Zyklon-B
>be a much more obvious choice than Sarin?
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 21 10:17:58 PDT 1996
Article: 32174 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg Raven - Unlikely Agent
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 13:18:18 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <317a3567.1365545@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <316d146d.4061484@news.pacificnet.net> <31788217.4109@kaiwan.com> <199604201859.OAA09447@vixa.voyager.net> <3178E1DE.2743@kaiwan.com> <4lbnqr$2mo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <3178E1DE.2743@kaiwan.com>, Greg "Repeat the same
>lie and hope no-one notices" Raven wrote:
>
>   "Much more common is the claim that diesel engines were used 
>   to produce carbon monoxide gas -- a ridiculous claim owing to 
>   the relatively small amount of CO produced by a diesel engine 
>   under virtually any operating conditions."
>
>Even Freddie Berg gave up his attempts to peddle that crap on
>the net, but Mr. Raven keeps trying... 
>
>   "It simply doesn't add up."
>
>No, it doesn't, but Mr. Raven continues to try.
>
Poor McVay. He does the best he can.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 21 14:06:00 PDT 1996
Article: 32185 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Huggems
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 13:43:15 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <317a3b54.2883342@news.pacificnet.net>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Fri, 19 Apr 1996 12:20:06 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>> [...]                my genetic propensity to get a
>>certain enjoyment out of watching someone act like a fool. I would say
>>this propensity is quite widespread throughout humanity. It does
>>something for your soul.  	
>
>Yes, it debases your soul.

Reading your stuff is like watching Howard Stern.
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 21 14:06:02 PDT 1996
Article: 32186 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay folds to Moran's royal flush
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 13:47:38 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>	What? Still no McVay?
>
>	What? Still no McVay?
	
	What? Still no McVay?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 21 14:06:03 PDT 1996
Article: 32187 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ordinary Arabs
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 16:15:13 GMT
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=======================================================================================



                        -Ordinary Arabs-
                        by Jamie McCarthy

dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

 If we were to become as peculiar as the Israelis in these matters, I
 suppose that shelling of Montana would commence immediately.

Jamie McCarthy said: "Well, Rush Limbaugh's reaction a day or two
after the OK bombing was to suggest that the U.S. "hit" the place
responsible for it, presumably with air strikes and so forth.  This
was when it was still widely assumed that Arabs or some other
generally nasty sort of foreigners were responsible."

"... Arabs or some other generally nasty ..."?

"... Arabs or some other generally nasty ..."?

"... Arabs or some other generally nasty ..."?

"... Arabs or some other generally nasty ..."?

"... Arabs or some other generally nasty ..."?

"... Arabs or some other generally nasty ..."?

"... Arabs or some other generally nasty ..."?

	Poor Jamie, what a fool. Imagine, Jamie's a co-webmaster of a
righteous website that states it's against racist bigotry and hate.

	Poor, poor Jamie. Seems he has no control over what his little
fingers do when they grope about a keyboard.

"... Arabs or some other generally nasty ..."?

"... Arabs or some other generally nasty ..."?

"... Arabs or some other generally nasty ..."?

"... Arabs or some other generally nasty ..."
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
 Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
 to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.

"I speak only for myself."?  "I speak only for myself."?
"I speak only for myself."?  "I speak only for myself."?
  
Did someone tell Jamie to put this ah', er', ah' 'disclaimer' in?
Or does he subliminally recognize his own idiocy?

"... Arabs or some other generally nasty ..."?

"... Arabs or some other generally nasty ..."?

"... Arabs or some other generally nasty ..."?

"... Arabs or some other generally nasty ..."?

And so on.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 21 14:06:03 PDT 1996
Article: 32189 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's Definition of "chutzpah" confirmed
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 13:09:08 GMT
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: 	Moran posted this definition of "chutzpah" under "What is
>: Chutzpah?"
>
>
>
>Tom, what in the world does this have to do with revisionism?

	You mean you can't figure it out. Chutzpah is trying to tell
someone a spoon full of doo doo is honey, and the Holocaust is
chutzpah. You keep holding out the spoon and taking a taste now and
then as you've been doing.


>Bill



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr 22 06:36:20 PDT 1996
Article: 32213 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 17:39:54 GMT
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Greg Raven  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <316e661d.5389680@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>> >> (snip)
>>
>>   Lets see. Raven says that Zyclone B is made to gas off slowly
>> and thus would be a poor choice for the mass extermination of human
>> beings under the conditions alleged.
>> 
>>         Karen responds with some material that he concludes "clearly
>> refutes" Raven's "rubbish".
>> 
>>         The summary of the pertinent refuting information offered by
>> Keren is:
>> 
>> 1. 40% of the HCN escapes the storing medium in the first half hour.
>> 
>> 2. Humans die quickly from much less concentration, so much less than
>> 40% would have to gas off.
>> 
>> 3. That recently discovered patents to Zyclone B show that the gas off
>> is even faster.
>
>Without having seen Keren's original post, I would make these observations:
>
>1) We have been told that the entire gassing procedure took less than 30 minutes, 
>meaning that only some fraction of the 40% Keren cites (if accurate) would be 
>available for killing people. It should be noted that in the California gas chamber, 
>where the HCN-based poison is dropped into a weak acid solution directly beneath the 
>chair of the condemned man, it takes 8 to 10 minutes for the condemned man to die. 
>This is in a small, specially-built room, using higher concentrations of HCN than we 
>are lead to believe were used in the alleged gas chambers at Birkenau.
>
>2) After the 15 to 30 minute "gassing" that is spoken of in "eyewitness" accounts, the 
>Zyklon B would still be gassing off, so that in addition to residue gas in the air, in 
>the corpses, and on the surfaces of the room and the victims, there would be more than 
>half the killing potentiol remaining in the Zyklon B.
>
>3) Germany had faster-acting substances (such as Sarin) if they needed something with 
>which to kill people. The claim that they attempted to adapt Zyklon B is as ludicrous 
>as claims that, while they intended to kill millions of Jews using gas, they forgot to 
>built gas chambers at what is said to have been the largest gassing facility, and thus 
>had to CONVERT existing rooms and buildings into gas chambers.

	It seems there are many other alternate poisons the Germans
could have used, of which any comparison considerations would put
Zyklon B at the end of the list.

	Going by the Treblinka chapter of the Holocaust story, carbon
monoxide was a very efficient, and, going by the Holocaust story
itself, proven method. 
	After all, the story itself tells us 900,000 to 2,000,000
people were gassed to death by carbon monoxide.
	We can't overlook the question of why the Germans wouldn't
have used HCN in a liquid form, which in fact is a form it can come
in. Or, why they wouldn't have used it in another form that it can
come in - gas.

	
>-- 
>Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
>PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr 22 19:10:12 PDT 1996
Article: 32265 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Moran's vision of HDL responses
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 12:20:42 GMT
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	Moran got a vision that expressed his attitude on the
Holocaust Defense League's responses.
	It was like walking through a beautiful woods and coming
across a bunch of disgarded beer cans strewn around. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr 22 19:10:13 PDT 1996
Article: 32267 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Time For The Showdown
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 12:21:05 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	Terrible thing. Moran forgot to include one other little news
bit. Reported in the N.Y. Times, was an incident in a New Hampshire
High school that happened around Christmas time two years ago.
	What happened was a group of kids were singing Christmas
carols in the hallway when a Jewish girl came up and ask them to stop.
The report didn't say on what grounds the girl based her request, but
it was probably something she learned at home or ethnically nearby.
Whatever it was, the kids didn't like it and roughed her up. The
report mentioned how many kids were enrolled in the school, citing
2500, of which 15 were Jewish.
	No doubt the whole school was abuzz with the whole affair. 
	Talk about mass alienation and a quick lesson for the 2,485.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr 22 21:21:59 PDT 1996
Article: 32276 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay folds to Moran's royal flush
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 14:48:41 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	What? Still no McVay?


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Apr 22 21:22:00 PDT 1996
Article: 32278 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran said it.
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:04:26 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Apr 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> 
>> 	In his intital post on the Goldhagen book, Moran ask, "Could
>> this be the catalyst for revisionism in Germany".
>> 
>> Initial part from a report by Huber:
>> 
>> Subject: ANA _German historians, critics up in arms over Harvard 
>> professor's book_ (Associated Press)
>> 
>> BONN, Germany (Apr 15, 1996 6:30 p.m. EDT) -- German historians and 
>> critics are furiously assailing an American author for arguing that
>> the  Holocaust sprang from a rabid anti-Semitism that was peculiar to
>> Germany.
>> 
>> The uproar over Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's book, "Hitler's Willing
>> Executioners," is one of the loudest to ever to have occurred in this
>> country over how to explain the alleged murder of several million
>> Jews.
>> 
>> The Jews, ever getting away with chutzpah, get even more insulting and
>> belligerant, until the over all masses recognize it, and then poof. It
>> seems they live in a constant world of anxiety attack, what with the
>> chutzpah base, and can't stand the pressure, and keep pushing things
>> to a limit like a little boy crying for help.
>
>
>Interesting interpretation of German reactions to Goldhagen's book, Mr. 
>Moran.  I would note that nothing in the article you cite (apart from 
>Huber's editorializing comment about the "alleged" murders)  says 
>that German historians have responded to Goldhagen by claiming that the 
>Holocaust *did not happen*--rather, they have vigorously disagreed with his 
>analysis of its causes.  

	Maybe thats what it is today, but it doesn't mean what it will
be tommorrow. Keep dreaming up more things to make you happy.


>Do you understand the difference between debating the *causes* of an 
>event and debating the *existence* of an event?  In the case of the 
>current discussion of Goldhagen's book, the dispute is entirely over the 
>former--not the latter.
>
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"We are now living in an era where the wall between news and 
>entertainment has been eaten away like the cartilage 
>in David Crosby's septum."
>	--Al Franken, in _Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot_
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 23 09:35:12 PDT 1996
Article: 32372 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 13:31:04 GMT
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hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <3174f391.1646376@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	Alan Derchowitz's definition in his book "Chutzpah": "Like a
>	child you kills his parents and then pleads to the court for
>	mercy on the grounds he's an orphan".
>
>I replied:
>
>	Or like Mr. Moran calling Ken McVay a liar, without providing a
>	single, solitary shred of evidence, then demanding proof when he
>	is called a liar himself!

	Where is that? This could be the 8th or 9th time you've come
up with something like this and I ask "Where is that" and you never
return. Are you ready?

>	Mr. Moran is the master of chutzpah!
>
>In article <3178e7eb.1777208@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	Another Jewish admittion that chutzpah comes under Moran's
>	definition. Thanks Katz.
>
>
>It is good to see that Mr. Moran agrees with me that he is the supreme
>chutzpahnik in this newsgroup!
>
>--
>Harry Katz
>
>One inward contrition in the heart of man is better than
>many flagellations.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 23 14:16:59 PDT 1996
Article: 32414 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Moran's Definition of "chutzpah" confirmed
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 18:37:33 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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	The initial post has been canceled and this is one with a
correction to the freudian paste Moran committed in the first, were
Van Alstine's stuff got stuck under Mr.Edeiken's name who was very
unhappy about it. Whatever that may imply. 

	Moran posted this definition of "chutzpah" under "What is
Chutzpah?"

	It's someone putting a big spoon full of reeking diarrehic
        doo doo up to your mouth and telling you it's honey.

So far the following persons have confirmed Moran's definition.

Person No. 1
Mr.Edeiken:

So you got what you asked for.  You have a complaint?

	--YFE 


                                                   
Person No.2
Mr. Katz's confession:

"Or like Mr. Moran calling Ken McVay a liar, without providing a
single, solitary shred of evidence, then demanding proof when he is
called a liar himself!

Mr. Moran is the master of chutzpah!"



Person No.3
Mr. Van Alstine:

"Actually, anyone reading Moran talking to Moran about Moran, outside
of Moran demonstrating chutzpah to Moran, would get a pretty good
laugh." 


Anyone else want to confirm Moran's definition of "chutzpah"? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 23 15:36:20 PDT 1996
Article: 32438 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Too too good for a thread
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 15:15:56 GMT
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>    posted/emailed
>
>    I picked up a copy of the 4/17/96 New York Times (National Edition)
>    from the old newspaper pile at my usual coffeehouse today, so paper in
>    hand I thought I would readdress this Tom Moran post.
>
>In article <3178e1ef.245789@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>> 
>>Part I
>> 
>>As to Moran's post: "Holocaust Day of Rememberance"
>>	'Today 4/17/96 in the N.Y. Times the report on the Jews
>>holocaust bombing of Lebanon's vital installations for survival like
>>electrical power plants that operate hospitals and such with American
>>supplied arms, mentioned the Jews eased up for "2 minutes" in respect
>>for Holocaust '"Day of  Rememberance"'.
>> 
>>Mittleman, evidentally mis-reading one of Litt the Snit's pert
>>brilliancies, responded:
>>   " When I read the NYTimes yesterday (4/17) afternoon, I looked for
>>this and didn't see it either.  I didn't have a.r in front of me at
>>the time so I just assumed I had misread Tommy's post and that he had
>>actually said it was in the 4/16 NYTimes.  I see here that I read him
>>correctly and that "2 minutes" statement was not there.  Maybe I
>>missed it; what page was it on Tommy?"
>> 
>>                         daniel david mittleman
>> 
>>Next time Mittleman should read a little more thoroughly. Maybe he did
>>read it, but subliminally blocked it out.
>> 
>>	         N.Y. Times 4/17/17
>>"U.S. Asks Lebanon to Disarm Militant Muslim Guerrillas"
>> 
>>"The sixth day of the assault was marked by ever more Israeli air and
>>artillery assaults, halted only for a two minute pause in the morning
>>to mark Holocaust Memorial Day." 
>
>  The above quote is in fact in the paper.  It is on page four, column
>    five three quarters of the way down the page.
>  
        "It is on page four, column five three quarters of the way
down the page."

	Wow, way over on page four, way over on column five, way down
three quarters of the page? Wow, no wonder you didn't see it the first
time around.

UlymmIsftgel.
>>Part II
>> 
>>Mittleman, evidentally responding to my referrences to the lopsided
>>prejudice of American medias when reporting on Jewish things, and the
>>more than ample accomodations they get to feed America doses of their
>>rediculous logic, writes: 
>> 
>>   "Did you notice, however, that there were TWO letters to the editor
>>in the NYTimes yesterday - by non-Jews (one I know to be a non-Jew,
>>the other had an arabic name) - criticizing the Israeli government for
>>its hostilities in Lebanon?  There were no countering pro-Israel
>>letters along with these.  I point this out to you because you have
>>previously asserted that the NYTimes bends over backwards to print
>>pro-Jew and pro-Israel letters on the editorial page.  I also should
>>point out that
>>    I agreed exactly with the sentiments of the first author (the one
>>I know to be a non-Jew - his name is George McGovern)."
>> 
>> 
>>Moran:  Mittleman cites two letters to the editor for 4/17/96 N.Y.
>>Times. Two letters. Mittleman says  "There were no countering
>>pro-Israel letters along with these."  
>>	In reality there were three. Right there in proximity to each
>>other.
>>	How could Mittleman have missed it? Maybe it was a subliminal
>>block. Long years of indocrination have made him blind to reality.
>> 
>>The missing letter: 
>> 
>>"NO SECURITY NEUROSIS"
>>To the editor:
>>	"An April 14 Week in Review analysis of the Middle East crisis
>>implies that the Israeli retaliation against attacks by Hezbollah is
>>psychotherapeutic -- that Prime Minister Shimon Peres of Israel ..."
>> 
>>(I will let Mittleman fill in the intermediate deleted part if he
>>thinks there is any vital relevance to my conclusions on the rest.)
>>	
>>Letter con't.:
>>	"Americans approaching the first anniversary of the Oklahoma
>>City bombing will understand the ordinary Israeli citizen's desire to
>>live in a secure enviroment free of suicide bombers and missles. Why
>>is government intervention to guarantee security a neurosis that is
>>peculiar to Israelis?"
>>                                                   Stanley Sprecher
>
>    The letter is, in fact, there.  The section Tommy deleted described
>    suicide bombings by Hezbollah in Tel Aviv and Jerulsalem.
>
>===========================================================================
>daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 24 10:10:56 PDT 1996
Article: 32450 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Alternate Introductory Systems
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 15:02:12 GMT
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	No one can deny the Germans don't have awesome technological
abilities, but going by Holocaust accounts they were a bunch of
idiots. 
	Focusing on the intoduction methods the Germans are said to
have used for Zyklon B, it is obvious the story proves itself and the
myriad of authors lack a certain substance. They believe any
testimony, whether or not it's contradictory.
	Holes in roofs, portals in the sides of gas chambers, pourous
pillars. Going by this the Germans would have been just above the
Neanderthal level.
	Just sitting around it is easy to think of a number of other
systems they could have used with any technology that was available at
the time.
        They could have had a chamber out side the gas chamber itself
where they could have placed any Zyklon B pellets. The chamber could
have the ability to crush any pellets thereby increasing the surface
area of the material, and then blown air in through the granulated
substance that would pick up the evaporative HCN and delivered it to
the inner chamber.
	They could have done the same thing with any HCN in liquid
form.
	They could have used the liquid form by squirting it into the
chamber. The whole thing could have been set up so all any SS would
have to do is pour it into an existing and permanent device which
would then introduce it to the chamber.
	They could have used the HCN in gas form directly, fed in from
tanks.
	They could have used engines to generate carbon monoxide.
After all this method is said to have been used to kill 2,000,000
people in one year at Treblinka.
	They could have used a number of other substances the Germans
are known to have had. After all the Allies dumped 300 million tons of
captured chemical arms into the Baltic.
	They could have used a number of other systems instead of the
goofy methods asserted by the Holocaust story.
	According to the Holocaust story, almost everyone was an
idiot.
	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 24 10:10:57 PDT 1996
Article: 32451 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Alternate Krema Plans
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 15:03:08 GMT
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	According to the Holocaust story, the German designs for
facilities of mass extermination were built by a bunch of idiots.
	The story has the gas chambers built under ground which would
require the Germans to file the victims through narrow doorways, down
narrow stairs, through more narrow doorways into a chamber through a
narrow door and then the whole process in reverse back up the stairs
to the cremation ovens.
	For the two facilities said to have been built at ground level
the whole thing was the same without stairs.
	Just giving it 5 minutes of consideration, it is easy to
envision a plan that would have been available to the Germans who
really have a proven ability of technological planning.
	The gas chambers could have been large rooms with sliding
doors for easy access and clearing the rooms of the bodies. It could
have had some kind of conveyor or other transport setup for taking the
bodies to any ovens. The ovens should have been more substantial than
the individual little retorts that are alleged to have been used to
cremate the millions.
	There are a number of should have been, could have been
systems that would be way better than the idiotic setups proposed by
the Holocaust story.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 24 10:10:57 PDT 1996
Article: 32486 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AUSCHWITZ: Revisionnist FAQ (1)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 13:24:07 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  Are people cremated in
>>  coffins?
>
>	Yes.
>
>> To mean that when the relatives get the ashes of the deceased
>>  they are part wood ashes. Why would they cremate people in coffins?
>
>	This has been answered several times: because it is required by law.

	Is this a state by state law? One required in all states?
Should we take your statement as true, or do you have something else? 
	As to any cremation rate, I had a German shepard that died and
was cremated, it took an hour.

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 24 10:10:58 PDT 1996
Article: 32495 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Some points of interest now
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 14:07:04 GMT
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>  The title was originally: Auschwitz, a revisionist FAQ (2)
> Interesting point of discussion now:
>
>>Mr. Beaulieu, you have, rather selectively, left out quite a bit from
>>Ho"ss's narration of a gassing in the gas chamber of either Krema II or
>>III. The complete passage reads:
>
>   Basically, in long paragraphs Van Alstine claimed that I was wrong with
>  my interpretation of Hoess memoirs. I gave the reference, 'Le commandant
>  d'Auschwitz parle' (Hoess memoirs). My statement was that according to the
>  text, Hoess was describing a fake shower design which was _used_ to spread
>  Zyklon B. Van Alstine brought his interpretation in which the fake showers
>  were there but were not used to spread Zyklon B, e.g. that the text from Hoess
>  stated that the wiremesh was the real device again. For your information
>  Van Alstine, my personnal translation french-english of this text did not
>  contain 'deliberate omissions', the word use in french to qualify
>  the generating device was 'tuyere'. There's just one meaning here, it is
>  pipe. Wiremesh would be 'pillier poreux', or 'grillage metallique':
>
>>   effectivement l'impression d'une salle de bains.[...] Ensuite on refermait
>>   la porte et on la vissait et les desinfecteurs, deja alertes, jettaient
>>   le zyclon par des lucarnes  a travers le plafond dans les tuyeres par
>>   lesquelles il arrivait jusqu'a terre. Grace a cela, le gaz se rependait
>
>  The english word that you use is 'air shaft', I've search in my dictionnary
>  in there's several interpretations, but it doesn't seems to be a wiremesh.
>  I'm not skill enough in that language to know if it could mean 'wiremesh',
>  I'll wait to see if someone has a more pertinent rebutal than you, but for
>  the moment, in the text, the showers as a 'generating device' appear as
>  the most probable interpretation. Depends of the original text.
>
	"Air shaft" would be something like a duct or dedicated
passage for directing air into or out of somewhere. If the walls of
the passage were mesh, air would exit all along the passage and the
purpose of the air shaft would be useless.  




From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 24 12:26:34 PDT 1996
Article: 32507 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Testimonial Fiction
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 12:38:00 GMT
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4/19/96

kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>Archive/File: camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka leleko.002
>Last-Modified: 1995/08/18
>Source: United States Department of Justice
>
>                            EXCERPT 
>               From Interrogration of Defendant
>
>February 21, 1945. Lieutenant EPPEL', Investigator of the Fourth
>Department of the "SMERSH" Directorate of Counterintelligence of the
>Second Belorussian Front interrogated as defendant -
>
>      LELEKO, Pavel Vladimirovich, born in 1922, native of the village
>      of Chaplinka, Chaplinka District, Nikolayev Region, Ukrainian,
>      citizen of the USSR.

	This report like all the rest lacks a certain detail that one
might expect from a real hearing. It is more like some tale with a few
questions inserted. A question is asked and then Leleko goes off with
a extended comment and the interogator never poses any thing for
clarification. Even UFO story writers cover their stuff more
carefully.
	As far as Treblinka is concerned, there is nothing to the
story than "eyewitness testimony". No photographs or anything. The
Treblinka chapter of the Holocaust story has it that the camp was
demolished by the Germans, completely, leveled off, trees planted and
turned over to a Ukranian farmer.
	The report is titled "EXERPT - 	interrogation of defendant".
so we know we are getting only part of the story. It took place in
Feb. 1945 just a month after the Russians arrived at Auschwitz.
	Instead of wearing anyone out with a lot of prelude I will
just say that it is totally absurd, but a step by step composition has
been made and is below.
	For anyone wanting to forgo following the step by step
commentary and observations, a summary is presented at the end.
Nevertheless, this testimony is a prime example of how way out
Holocaust eyewitness testimony can be and is a good example to pour
over. 

>Question: What was the system of mass extermination of people in the
>German death camp of Treblinka?
>
>Answer: Two to three trainloads of doomed prisoners arrived daily at
>the Treblinka railroad station. Each train consisted of 60 cars. The
>train was brought in three installments into the second section of the
>"death camp". Twenty cars were brought in every half hour. As soon as
>the cars crossed the barbed wire, the guard was changed. The policemen
>escorting the train remained outside the camp and left on the
>locomotive to fetch the next batch of prisoners. The railroads cards
>brought into the camp were immediately unloaded by the guards. We
>started to unload the cars with the help of the so-called "blue crew"
>consisting of doomed prisoners wearing a blue armband on the sleeve.
>Those arriving were told that they must first go to the batch house
>and will then be sent further to the Ukraine. But the sight of the
>camp, the enormous flaming pyre burning at one end of the camp, the
>suffocating stench from decomposing bodies that spread for some 10 km
>around and was particularly strong within the camp itself, made it
>clear what the place really was.

	Okay, right here we have the statement that everyone arriving
at the camp became immediately aware of what was in store for them.
Notice the statement that the "enormous flaming pyre" was at one end
of the camp. Treblinka is reported to have consisted of 16 hectares
(about 40 acres). Another testimony on Treblinka states that all the
burying, unburying, burning and reburying took place right inside this
40 acres. As we will see later on in the report, the witness claims
2,000,000 people were murdered and disposed of in just one year, which
would be within the confines of the 40 acres.
	The witness states the smell from the raging pyre could be
smelled ten kilometers away. "Ten kilometers"?
 
>The people chased out of the cars with whips guessed immediately where
>they had been brought; some attempted to climb over the barbed wire of
>the fencing, got caught at it, and we opened fire on those who were
>trying to escape and killed them.
> We tried to quiet down the fear-crazed people with heavy clubs.
> After all those who were able to walk had been unloaded, only the
> ailing, the killed and the wounded remained in the railroad cars.

Again, all the people were aware of what was in store for them. As we
will see, this procedure was carried out 3,000 times, using just a
years duration of time as a component of the ciphering, not including
any other "years" the witness testified to.
	It seems the Germans didn't have a very good procedure for
keeping the intended victims from knowing what was in store for them,
and never did figure one out, having to go through this wild mayhem on
a day to day basis.

>These were carried by the prisoners
>belonging to the "blue crew" into the so-called "infirmary", the name
>given to the place where the ailing and the wounded were shot and the
>dead were burned.

	Right here we have the statement saying this "infirmary" was a
place that you entered and where the dead were burned. Try to
formulate a picture of this incineration process along the way.

> This place became particularly crowded when the
>prisoners marked for death who were brought in the railroad cars
>attempted to commit suicide. Thus, in March 1943 there arrived a train
>in which half of the prisoners cut their throats and hands with
>razors.

	Now the testimony so far says 3 trains a day arrived at the
camp, each having 60 cars, and 20 cars at a time were brought up to be
unloaded, which would make the total number of times this procedure
would have happened in a year about 3000 times. Thus on this one
occasion out of 3000 times, half the prisoners cut their own throats.
	Evidentally the Germans didn't search the prisoners before 
they were loaded on the train or they were allowed to carry razors and
knives. We might assume these razors were the flip out "straight"
razor types, common to the era. Are we to believe the Germans allowed
hundreds of these weapons to get through, especially knowing what kind
of place the prisoners were going? Was this the only trainload that
had possession of all these knives and razors? 
	The testimony that these people killed themselves before they
even got off the train would indicate they knew what was in store for
them even before unloading.

> While unloading was going on, the prisoners cut themselves
>with knives and razors before the eyes of us, the policement, saying: 
>"anyhow you will kill us". The majority of those who did not die of
>self-inflicted wounds were shot. After the unloading, all those who
>could stand on their feet were chased toward the undressing place.
>There the wormen were separated from the men and pushed into a special
>barrack, while the men were told to undress right there outside
>another barrack. During the first years of the existence of the camp,
>women and men undressed together in the same barrack,

	The Holocaust story has it that Treblinka was in operation for
only a year yet here we have the testimony, "During the first years of
the existance of the camp ...". Evidentally this testimony wasn't
synchronized with other accounts that had to have the process of the
camp last only one year.

> But it happened
>once that the prisoners attacked the "chief of the working crew" in
>the undressing barrack. Somehow the man managed to escape from there.
>Several policemen and Germans immediately rushed in. One of the
>Germans started firing into the crowd from his sub-machine gun. After
>they had stopped shooting, the Germans and the policemen started to
>beat with clubs and whips those who survivied. After this incident,
>men were assigned a special place in the  open air in which to
>undress, by the barrack, across from the women's undressing place.
>Pushed by the clubs of the Germans and the policemen, the men threw
>off their clothing, having first handed their valuables and money to a
>special "cashier's office". The women were obliged to remove their
>shoes before entering the undressingplace. They were forced to remove
>all their clothing under the supervision of German policemen and
>prisoners of the so-called "red crew". Those who resisted were
>whipped.

	Here we have the first accounts of the brutal sadistic nature
of the Germans. 

>Very often the Germans and the policemen tore off and cut off the
>clothing of those who did not want to undress or undressed too slowly.
>Many women begged to be allowed to keep at least some clothing on
>their persons, but the German, smiling cynically, ordered them to
>undress "to the end". The policemen or the workers threw to the ground
>and undressed who refused to do so. The undressed women were told to
>hand over all their valuables and money to the "cashier's office".
>After this the women were driven in groups to another part of the
>barrack, where 50 prisoners - "hairdressers" were working. The women
>sat on a long bench and the "hairdressers" cut off their hair. The cut
>hair were packed in large bags and sent by trainloads to Germany. One
>of the Germans told me that in Germany they are used to fill
>mattresses, also for soft upholstery. He said that this hair make very
>good mattresses and the Germans buy them willingly.

	The hair was bagged and sent to Germany to be made into
mattresses and upholstery. This is in the same ilk as the now defunct
soap story which was well publicized in the early years after the war.
We could take special note of the attack on the German people in
general with "He said that this hair make very good mattresses and the
Germans buy them willingly". "Willingly" to imply they knew what they
were buying.

>good mattresses and the Germans buy them willingly.
>After their hair was cut the women were sent in batches to the third
>section of the camp, to the "bath house", but in reality to the gas
>chamber to be exterminated there.
>
>Before entering the gas chamber building they passed along a long path
>bordered on both sides with a high fence made of barbed wire and
>branches. Along the edge of the path stood policemen and Germans. Each
>one held a whip or a club. I stood repeatedly on the edge of this path
>with other policemen and drove along with a whip the women and the men
>into the gas chamber building. Many women were not quite sure that
>they would now be exterminated and in order to have some means of
>subsistence in the future, they hid some valuables on their persons.

	All of a sudden the prisoners, who in the immediate previous
testimony were all supposed to know they were going to die, hid their
valuables so they would "have some subsistence in the future".
"Future"? 

>To prevent this, the Germans placed special controllers in the center
>of the path. When they noticed that a woman walked along the path
>holding her legs close together, she was stopped at once and cynically
>examined, and if anything was found on her, she was beaten almost to
>death. The men walked more quietly down this path. Several times I
>heard how one, speaking to another, asked: "Why are you weeping? Do
>you believe you can arouse compassion in these Germans?" Frequently we
>could hear cries of "Hail Stalin!", "Hail the Red Army!" To us Russian
>guards, they said: "Today you exterminate us, and tomorrow the Germans
>will be killing you".
>
>When the procession of doomed people approached the gas chamber
>building, MARCHENKO and Nikolay, the motorists of the gas chambers
>shouted: "Walk faster, or the water will become cold!" Each group of
>women or men was pushed from behind by some German and very frequently
>by Franz, the camp commander himself, escorted by dogs. As they
>approached the gas chambers, the people started to recoil in horror,
>sometimes they tried to retrace their steps. Then whips and clubs were
>used. Franz immediately ordered his dog to attack the naken people.
>Each trained for this, it grabbed them by their genitals.

	Okay, more stories of German brutality. 

>Aside from the motor operators who had dogs with them, there were five
>or six Germans near the gas chambers. With whips and clubs they chased
>people into the passage of the gas chamber building and then into the
>gas chambers. The Germans and the motor operators then competed as to
>atrocities with regard to the people to be killed. MARCHENKO for
>instance, had a sword with which he mutilated people. He cut off the
>breasts of women.

	Can you picture it. As the Germans and the Russian motorman
were herding the people into the gas chamber they took time to hack a
few in front of the others. Evidentally the Germans didn't worry about
this causing any panic among the rest, all this happening again and
again during the 3000+ times the procedure took place. Can you picture
it? Womens breasts laying around on the ground. What happened then?
Did they just file the people into the chambers over the cut off
breasts or did someone have to go around and pick them up? Did they
put the mutilated body parts in containers and then take them over to
the cremation along with the rest of the bodies?
 
>When the chamber was filled to capacity, the Germans or the motorists
>came to the door and started beating up the naked people with a rubber
>whip and at the same time set their dogs against them. The prisoners
>shrank away into the depth of the chamber yielding place to more
>prisoners.
> Such a pressing-in occurred several times so that some 700
>to 800 people could be crowded into the not-so-large chambers. When
>the chambers were filled to the very limit, the Germans started to
>throw in the children left by the women either in the undressing place
>or more frequently outside the gas chamber building. As the ceiling of
>the gas chambers was very low, the children thrown into the chamber
>hit the ceiling and then, disfigured, sometimes with broken heads,
>fell on the heads of the prisoners.

	We will recognize by the end of what is given, we can not get
a picture of this chamber in our heads or the size of the door. But
according to a previous post by McVay "Holocaust Almanac: The Killing
Begins" posted 10/23/95, the doors would have been barely three feet
across by 5 feet high. This Leleko testimony says kids were thrown in
over the heads of those in the chamber. The ceiling is said to have
been very low. An average ceiling is about 8 feet, but this one was
very low. Seven feet? Six feet? Now how far could someone throw a
child in under the circumstances described?  The people were densed
packed in, so they must have been right at the door way too. How did
the Germans contain this situation while throwing in the children
through a 3 foot by 5 foot door with very little head room as the
space that the children were thrown? According to the other mentioned
testimony, fake shower heads were installed which one might think even
put more of a problem of throwing in babies over the heads of the
dense packed people.
	Whatever, the McVay Almanac account says "There had been
instances in the old chambers in which little children had not been
asphyxiated because gas rose to the ceiling". This seems thoroughly
contradictory to this Leleko testimony, or vice versa.	

>When loading of the chambers was completed, they were sealed off by
>hermetically closing doors. 

	On the one hand the witness says a chamber was loaded with 800
people and the another post by McVay from the Almanac says 600. 

>Motorists MARCHENKO and Nikolay started
>the motors. The gas produced went through the pipes into the chambers.
>The process of suffocation began.

	This person is under the opinion that the extermination
process was by suffocation and not the result of being poisoned with
carbon monoxide. In the other testimony mentioned, it says the gas was
introduced through the piping to the showerheads, a story that was
applied at on time to tales of Auschwitz, and other camps now revised
as having never been extermination camps in the first place. 

> Some time after the motor had been
>started, the motorists looked into the chambers through special
>observation portholes situated near each door, in order to determine
>how the process of extermination was going on. When asked what they
>saw, the motorists answered that the people were writhing, crushing
>each other. I also tried to look through the porthole, but for some
>reason could see nothing. 

	He looked in but couldn't see anything? Was this only once out
of all the time he was there, or did he attempt it numerous times? The
motorman didn't seem to have any problem looking inside, even though
he should have, since the Almanac says there were no lights at all
inside the chamber. 

>Gradually the noise in the chambers died
>down. Some fifteen minutes later the motors were stopped and there was
>an unusual silence.
>
>While extermination of this batch of prisoners went on, a new batch of
>condemned people arrived into the camp. The entire process started all
>over again.
>
>Question: What was done with the bodies of the prisoners?

	So we can see from this question the interogators weren't
concerned with or didn't formulate any questions while listening to
the witness.

>Answer: When the process of extermination by gasses was completed, the
>outer doors of the chambers were opened. The disfigured, bitten
>prisoners, with torn-off noses and ears lay on top of each other in
>the most varied postures.

	Suddenly "outer doors". Actually going by the description of
how the Germans made a number of whippings to get more and more people
into the chambers, "800 in a not too large of a chamber" we wonder how
they would have room to "writher and crush" each other. They should
all have died standing up.
	What happened inside the chambers? The prisoners "tore off"
their own noses and ears or they tore each others noses and ears off?
How did they do this in a tight dense pack situation like the one thus
described? How does one tear off noses and ears? Maybe it means the
victims bit each others ears and noses off.
	This didn't seem to be the case in the tales of Auschwitz.
Perhaps Holocaust defenders would say it because they were gassed with
carbon momoxide. Yet carbon monoxide is a very sutble gas. Many people
have died from just being in the same room with some brickettes,
trying to keep warm. They die in their sleep. And of course many
people have committed suicide by sitting in their car with a hose
running from the tail pipe through a window. Are these all reported to
have died in a writhering agony?

>Several hundred prisoners destined for death and belonging to the
>"working crews" were chased to the gas chamber building and they
>started to unload the chambers.

	Several hundred were involved in unloading the chambers.      

> In order to facilitate the removal of
>the dead bodies from the chambers, streams of water were poured over
>them. The bodies were laid on stretchers. An especially assigned man
>with pincers stood right there and opened the dead mouths. If he found
>any gold teeth he yanked them out with his pincers. The bodies were
>carried on stretchers to the special furnace about which I have
>testified earlier.

	Here we have it one guy, "An especially assigned man" standing
"right there" to pull the teeth as the hundreds of workers filed up to
and away from the chamber. We can imagine the process would be quite
confusing, what with all the bodies crammed in, the workers lined up
to get the bodies, stopping to have the teeth pulled out of the body
they were carrying, filing past each other back and forth over the
path as they retrieved and carried away back to be cremated. All this
with body parts laying around on the ground?

> On the way there, under the effect of the fresh
>air, some of the killed, especially pregnant women, began to revive,
>to groan.

	After the massive crushing into the chamber(s), there to wait
15 minutes while the gas was introduced and people were writhering in
the dense pack situation, tearing and/or biting noses and ears off, it
turns out the ones that survived were mostly pregnant women.  

> We the policemen, shot them on the spot and I had to shoot
>them too. The bodies were laid on the rails of the incinerator where
>the fire burned already. Some 800-1000 bodies were laid on the
>incinerator at one time.

	Take note of these mentioned "rails". Were they over some kind
of pit? Maybe we'll find out down the road. We can hold onto the "800
to 1,000 bodies" for future comment.  

> They continued to burn for some five hours.

	Amid this testimony it is said that a new batch was brought in
every half hour, that there were 2 to 3 trains a day coming in, each
one holding 3,500 to 4,000 people. Lets take the 3,500, giving the
Holocaust story the benefits of the lower numbers. This would be
rounded off, 10,000 people a day. Giving the Holocaust story the
benefit of the two numbers we can say 1000 people were cremated every
6 hours, giving time for loading the bodies and recovering any ashes.
This would come out to roughly 4 loads a day, 1000 people per load,
4,000 a day, leaving 6,000 left over, daily. Not giving the Holocaust
story any accomodation in the numbers the number of people left over
beyond the system's capacity would be 8,000. 

>This incinerator functioned ceaselessly day and night. After the
>bodies had been burned, the prisoners belonging to the "working crews"
>passed the ashes and remains of the bodies through a sieve.

	Now this conveniently accounts for why there has never been
any evidence found that would support the story of millions being
killed.

> The parts
>of the body that had burned but had preserved their natural shape were
>put into a special mortar and pounded into flour. This was done in
>order to hide the traces of the crimes committed. Later on the ashes
>were buried in deep pits.
>
>During the first year of the existence of the "death camp", the bodies
>of the dead people were not burned but were buried.
	
	We can see the statement says the bodies were buried whole in
the first year, so this would do away with anyone trying to say the
6,000 to 8,000 left over bodies on a day by day occurance were not
taken to other areas to be burned, buried or whatever. The next
statement reiterates this.  

> Starting in 1943,
>after the incinerator was built, the pits with the bodies buried in
>them were opened up and the content burned.

	 The story having the bodies dug up, burned and reburied would
seem to explain why no evidence of such a vast undertaking exists. But
this is not the case. The vast amount of ashes in the disrupted
regolithic sequence of the soil would be subject to investigation and
determination by soil analysis and comparison with adjacent land, even
unto today. Especially since the whole thing was said to have taken
place within 40 acres of land, making location of the graves sites
easy, if any existed.
	It should be recalled that this interogation was supplied by
the Soviets, who never did one single forensic test or probe to verify
any of the allegations or testimony they presented. 

> All this work was done by
>the prisoners waiting to die under the supervision of the Germans and
>of us, the policemen.
>
>Question: What was the purpose of the so-called "infirmary"?
>
>Answer: The Germans gave the name of "infirmary" to that place in the
>death camp where the sick and wounded prisoners were killed. The
>"infirmary" covered a small area, in the center of which there was a
>large pit six to eight meters in diameter and three meters deep. At
>its bottom there always burned a fire into which the bodies were
>thrown.

	Okay. The "infirmary" has been identified again as the place
where the cremations took place. No other place is mentioned. Here we
are given further details as to the fire pit (incineration facility).
It was about 7 meters (21 feet) across and three meters (9 feet) deep.
Just a little bigger than the area size of a average residential
swimming pool. 

> The entire area of the "infirmary" was surrounded by a large
>fence of barbed wire and branches. To the side of the fire, around the
>corner of the fence, there was a sentry hut in which those who worked
>in the "infirmary" rested and warmed themselves. Those included MATUS,
>the German unterscharfu"hrer, whom we called the "doctor", the
>policeman-guard and five prisoners from the "working crew". On their
>sleeves they wore white bands with a red cross. When the trains
>carrying the doomed prisoners came in, all those who could not move,
>the ailing and the wounded were carried or assisted to the sentry hut
>in the "infirmary" by the prisoners belonging to the working crews.
>There the "infirmary attendants" quickly undressed them, brought them
>to the fire in groups of several and sat them on the ground. MATUS
>then approached them from behind and shot them one after the other
>either with his pistol, his submachine gun or his rifle.

	Of course a little more about German brutality.

> The dead rolled to the bottom of the pit to the fire.

	Okay, the dead "rolled" to the bottom of the pit, which would
indicate it was sort of bowl shaped. To the "bottom" of the pit and
thus to the "fire"? What kind of fire? Some logs burning at the
bottom? A grate over burners fed by gas or oil? What happened to the
"rails" that he said they laid the bodies on? Who knows? Will we find
out the answer to all this by the end of this report? No.

> We the guards who were on
>duty in the "infirmary" also took part in the shooting. When all the
>wounded and the sick had been killed, the "infirmary attendants" went
>down into the pit and threw the dead into the fire.

	Wait a minute. The workers went down into the pit to throw the
dead into the fires? But what about the "rails" or rolling the bodies
down?

> At least 100
>prisoners were shot daily in the "infirmary". It happened once that
>among the ailing in an incoming train there were the father and mother
>of one of the prisoners destined to die and belonging to a "working
>crew". Pushed by policemen, he carried his father to the "infirmary"
>to be shot. In the "infirmary", near the sentry hut, he and his father
>fell to the ground. MATUS threw himself at him with a whip. He then
>ran to the train and soon returned carrying his mother. After this he
>became insane. The German shot him and then killed the father and the
>mother.

	A special personal detail.
>
>Question: What were the "working crews" of the "death camp"? How were
>they assembled?
>
>Answer: As I have already testified, the servicing of the "death camp"
>was carried out by special crews composed of those who had been
>brought in for extermination. They camp comprised several "working
>crews", such as the "blue" working crew which unloaded the trains, the
>"red" working crew which serviced the undressing places, the "black"
>working crew which destroyed the bodies. There was also a special crew
>that sorted out the belongings of the killed. Altogether the crews
>numbered up to 1,500 persons. They also included some 15 women who did
>the washing of clothes. Selection into the working crew took place
>according to the need for their services - from among the prisoners
>brought to the camp to be exterminated. Until the end of 1942 the
>working crews were assembled every two-three days and correspondingly,
>every two-three days they were all exterminated in the "infirmary".

	Every three days the Germans exterminated 1,500 workers, in
the infirmary? Considering Leleko's previous statement "The
"infirmary" covered a small area ..." we might get the idea this would
be a bit chaotic. 

>Their extermination was conducted in the following manner. After work,
>around 10-11 p.m., a working crew of some 100-200 people was brought
>to the "infirmary". They were then taken into the place in batches of
>five and shot there by the policemen and the Germans. Those belonging
>to the working crews and who happened to be then near the barbed wire
>fencing in the "infirmary" could hear how their comrades were being
>killed and waited for their own death. Within one and one half or two
>hours hundreds of people had been shot and were burning on the fire.
>Working crews were also exterminated for having done something that
>displeased the Germans.

	The former workers were taken into the infirmary 5 at a time.
Okay. At least we don't have to struggle trying to conceive a picture
of them being in there all at once. But hold it. There were 1,500 all
together that were exterminated 5 at a time which would mean the
procedure would have had to repeat itself 300 times, taking place
during a time span of "one to one and a half to two hours", which
would come out to one batch every 20 seconds for a one and a half hour
duration. This must have been quite a scene, what with the other
bodies being brought in to the infirmary from the gas chambers. Why
did the Germans bring in the workers 5 at a time? The witness doesn't
say. 

>In September 1942, soon after I entered the "death camp" as they were
>laying down bodies for burial in the large pits, the workers killed a
>German who had shown particularly savage cruelty toward the prisoners.

	More German brutality.		

>Immediately the entire crew, numbering some 250 people, were grouped
>at the bottom of the pit together with the bodies that they had not
>yet had time to bury. The workers were executed right there over the
>bodies of the dead prisoners. One after the other they were brought to
>the end of the pit, laid on the dead bodies and their heads were cut
>off or split up with an axe or wooden mallet. All 250 were killed in
>this way.
>
>A similar case occurred soon after in the first section of the "death
>camp".
>
> During the evening inspection, a German conducting the
>inspection, displeased with the workers because their answers were not
>clear enough, started to beat them in turn and during this incident,
>one of the workers hit him with a knife. The entire crew was
>immediately surrounded by Germans and policemen. Every fifth worker
>was killed with axes in full view of the entire assembly. Over 50
>persons were thus hacked down.

	More German brutality.

>It happened that the Germans learned that several among the working
>crews were preparing a riot. These people, they were found to be ten
>of them, were seized and hung by their feet. They suffered for five
>hours and after they were dead they still hung on posts for three days
>in the middle of the camp. It was enough for a worker not to look
>pleasantly enough at a German, not to greet him, to be immediately
>killed. Nevertheless, goaded on with whips and bullets, they went to
>their death, led their kin, their relations to be shot, did everything
>they were ordered to do. The Germans not only exterminated them, but
>also used them for their own amusement. They forced them to stage
>comical plays, they organized a large orchestra composed of prisoners
>waiting to die, which played every day some light music under the
>windows of the camp commander. They also staged amusements of a
>different sort. One day the commander declared that he wanted to be
>the guest at a wedding among the doomed prisoners. Right away a young
>woman was picked out among the laundry women and a groom was found
>among the workers. Both were dressed in appropriate fashion and
>ordered to go through the complete wedding ritual. The "newlyweds"
>were given a separate room. On the second day the commander of the
>camp declared that the newlyweds must of necessity leave for a
>"honeymoon trip". Escorted by the guards and the Germans and also the
>workers, the "groom" and the "bride" were brought to the "infirmary"
>and shot and then thrown into the fire. Meanwhile the Germans ordered
>the workers to shout "Happy Voyage"! and "See you soon!"
>
>Question: Name the figure for the number of people exterminated in the
>Treblinka death camp?
>
>Answer: During my stay in the "death camp", i.e. during the period
>from September 1942 to September 1943, no less than two million were
>exterminated there. Every day, with rare interruptions, two-three
>trainloads arrived to the camp, each one bringing in some 3,500-4,000
>doomed prisoners. On the average six to eight thousand were
>exterminated daily. How many were exterminated in this camp during its
>entire existence I do not know. [Transciption note: using this
>man's own figures, the figure of two million cannot be supported - his
>figures suggest 1.2 to 1.4 million, or about double the generally
>accepted death toll for Treblinka. knm. Aug. 5, 1994]

	Heres one of McVay's "Transcription Notes". McVay is pointing
out the witnesses claim of two million as opposed to his statement of
4,000 a day, times the year, 365 days, 1,400,000. Which figure, 1.2
million or 1.4 million is double the "generally accepted" death toll,
McVay doesn't say. The one figure floating around is 900,000. Half of
1.2 million would be 600,000 and for 1.4 million 700,000.
	What should one make out of this testimony. Is the witness
prone to exaggeration or even downright lieing? McVay doesn't seem to
have a transcription comment on this. Oh well, 2,000,000 isn't to far
>from  600,000, 700,000 or 900,000, the Leleko figures being just two to
three times the Holocaust story's figures, which conforms to the
general standard for Holocaust figures.  

>Question: What was the nationality of those who were exterminated?
>
>Answer: The crushing majority were of Jewish nationality. They were
>brought to the "death camp" from Germany, Poland, Bulgaria and France.

	But of course. The Holocaust story is 99.999% a Jewish story.

>Possibly from other countries also, but of this I do not know. Aside
>from Jews, several hundred Gypsies and Poles were exterminated there.

	Okay 600,000, 700,000, 900,000 or 2,000,000 minus several
hundred gives us more of a perspective on what Leleko means by a
"crushing majority" were Jewish.
>
>This testimony has been written down from my words correctly, has been
>read by me (signature) LELEKO

                            Summary
                            =======

	Considering how this witness is called a defendant, we should
wonder what kind of proceedings these were. Especially how it was even
before the war was completely over. Did the defendant have a lawyer?
Who knows.
	Since the defendant was implicating other names in the
testimony we wonder if his testimony wasn't used in any trials for
those named. It would be interesting to see what these other named
people testified to. Maybe Nizkor (McVay) will post them if any
exists. 
	Who knows. Maybe a Leleko never even existed. After all, the
Holocaust story refers to the Soviets as liars in the matter when its
convenient, such as who was responsible for the gross exaggerations of
the numbers said to have been killed at Auschwitz.
	One of the Almanac posts by McVay, titled "Treblinka's 'new
and improved' killing machine" describes a major renovation in the
middle of the existing extermination process at the camp, including 10
new gas chambers, "although according to some sources the new building
included only six gas chambers", and Leleko didn't mention any of it
even though any dates given show he would have been there when any
changes were made.
	Whatever, excluding any of the Almanac comment, and focusing
just on this testimony our summary observations would have to recall
that the "pit" which was only a bit larger than a average sized
residental swimming pool could handle 1000 people at a time. That it
had some kind of fire at the bottom, that burned constantly, day and
night yet could be cleaned of ashes, that the people were either laid
on rails over it, dumped in, rolled in or were carried down into it,
that 6,000 to 8,000 people were left over each day that the pit could
not accommodate, that the prisoners bound for the camp were allowed to
carry knives and razors, that the system was of such a nature that the
Germans had to endure total mayhem on a day by day basis and even
contibuted to it, that people tore or bit ears and noses off, even
while jammed into a small area shoulder to shoulder, that the
prisoners knew about their fate, yet looked foward to the future, and
that inspite of any McVay "Transcription Note" the witness claimed
2,000,000 people were killed there in one year. 

>Interrogation made by: Investigator of the Fourth Department of the
>SMERCH Directorate of Counterintelligence of the Second Belorussian
>Front, Lietenant (signature) EPPEL'
>
>The Excerpt is true: First Deputy Procurator of the Crimean Region,
>Senior Councillor of Justice. (KUPTSOV)

	 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>        Anonymous ftp: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>        European mirror: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Apr 24 14:26:46 PDT 1996
Article: 32509 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!news.graphics.cornell.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay folds to Moran's royal flush
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:08:24 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <31778fe5.3545079@news.pacificnet.net>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>
># Eventually Mr.Green and Professor Keren responded with some
># rather emotional argument, but McVay never shows up.
>
>"Emotional"?
>
>I stated that your claims about the rate-of-release of HCN from
>Zyklon-B are ridiculous. You admitted you have absolutely no
>technical or scientific source for these claims. Heck, even
>your revisionazi pals give figures that totally contradict
>your conjectures re the rate-of-release.
>
>I also stated that your claims about the "difficulties" with
>what may have continued to have evaporated from the Zyklon
>are ridiculous; this was solved either by using gas masks,
>or by taking the Zyklon out of the gas chambers using the
>wiremesh devices (in Kremas II and III).
>
>What's "emotional" about this?
>
>To claim you're a hallucinating maniac is "emotional"? It's a fact.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.

	Anyone following this can over to the posting "Cyanide Traces
at Auschwitz Today" and "Zyklon B - unlikely agent" to see if the
professor isn't just seeing it his way.

>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Apr 25 22:35:09 PDT 1996
Article: 32736 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 18:40:27 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Future reposts of this article will be known as;
	-The Ultimate Alternate System-
	Which is a continuation of other alternate systems posed
recently.

	It is obvious the technology mentioned was well within the
capability of the Germans, at that time in history.
 
	What with the new Goldhagen book drawing up to 500,000 Germans
into being directly involved, we should suppose the Germans had
inquired about the nation for ideas on the best way to exterminate the
Jews.
	Considering A.M.Rosenthal's (N.Y.Times columnist) escalation
to 50,000,000 Germans involved, in reviewing Goldhagen's book,
something far more efficient, quicker and more readily available than
Zyklon B fumigation pellets would have been thought of.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 26 07:07:46 PDT 1996
Article: 32762 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The best of Nizkor
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:16:02 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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			 The Best from Nizkor; 


Hilary Ostrov representing,
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/myssiwyg.html
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
			-----------
As you will see, there is no reason to post any of the stuff which
imspired Hilary to make comment. 
			-----------

"Actually Tommie, there was a ZOG meeting that day, and all the
Nizkorites - including Mr. McVay - decided that in the interest of
conserving bandwidth (and not seeing any sign that you have mastered
the art of taming your rigii and noticing that you and Mr. Giwer are
becoming increasingly indistinguishable, so that - as in this
particular post - you appear to be talking only to yourself) we're
just going to ignore you.

However, since Mr. Katz was not able to attend the meeting, and hadn't
read our new secret protocols of responding to Tommie, he did respond.
And his response does bear repeating:"
                           ==============

"Poor Mr. Moran!  His rigii reading must be in a complete fog, and his
legal pad in total disarray."
                           ==============

"Let me explain what an "archive file" is, Mr. Moran.  On second
thoughts, no I won't.  You seem to need the practice using a
dictionary.  So look it up.  Perhaps then you will understand the
^^^^[1] reference above.

And if you ever succeeded in mastering the lessons I posted for you on
how to use your newsreader to copy an URL, you might want to make note
of the following which will make it very easy for you not to lose
track of your trail of lies in the future:

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom"
                           ================

"Mr. Eideken, I believe we may be doing Mr. Moran (and perhaps his
alter-ego/echo-clone, Mr. Giwer) a grave disservice.  As the above
clearly indicates, Mr. Moran finds it exceedingly difficult to give
credence to the possibility that you might have visited a library
(perhaps because he himself has never spent any productive time in a
library).  The poor man keeps pleading for PHOTOS.
Btw, see if you can get the librarian to include a few PHOTOS of
"books" - as well as some simple instructions on how to read them."
                             ===============

"**Your new, improved ZOG decoder ring is en route and contains your
secret password for the code to decipher the password for access to
http://www.topsecret.zog.com/ where you will find his latest address. 

Posted and secretly e-mailed to Mr. Eideken"
                             ===============

"Actually, Mr. Van Alstine, as you and others have so cogently
demonstrated, Mr. Giwer *doesn't* have a leg to stand on.  Perhaps it
is time to create a new newsgroup where he and Mr. Moran can continue
to delude themselves: 

alt.PAR-from-the-PRIG (Pompous Arrogant Redundancy from the
Pontificating Ridiculously Ignorant Giwer)"
                             ================

"Please Mr. Moran, can you be a little more inspiring; so that maybe
Mr. Morris will post some more delicious recipes ... they have been
the most enlightening consequence of your posts in the past :>)"
                             ================

"Now Mr. Moran has shown that he can post a complete sentence without
a spelling error (although he has yet to master syntax and grammar),
perhaps he will learn how to go to a library (or a bookstore), read a
reference book and do his own homework."
                             ================

"Perhaps Mr. Moran's "powder" or that "monkey on his back" has
affected
his recall of how to copy an URL from his NewsReader to his Web
browser.  The following excerpted repost is presented as a public
service:" 
                             ================

"From: A Lesson for Mr. Moran (Was Re: Where are the URLs?) - posted
to
alt.revisionism Dec. 1/95

	[To further assist Mr. Moran, I have amended the *explicits*
to inimize his confusion.  The amendments are indented and contained
within square brackets, just like this comment.]"
                           ===============

"Poor Li'l Tommy.  Looks like he's succumbed to Giwerundic paupacy.
Must be one of the tortable side effects of "freudian pasting"."
                           ===============

"Good advice to the "revisionists", though, Tommy.  But past
experience
suggests that they are too hooked on their lies to be *able* to
refrain from the practice of "revisionism"."


                           ===============


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 26 07:07:47 PDT 1996
Article: 32770 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay says 'F you alt.rev. readers'
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:54:23 GMT
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Lines: 26
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <317f8646.3510696@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>It is my suggestion to Mr. Moran that he be very careful and very
>precise about his allegations.  
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green

	Thank you for the word "precise". It implies you may know
something about it and you are warning not to identify any paasages
not his. Do you have some information on the exact copy and locations
of McVay's tampering? I notice the text employed some chemical jargon
which is outside of his usual scope.
>-- 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                                   
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud
>"If it works, take it apart and find out why."  - unknown



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 26 11:44:05 PDT 1996
Article: 32816 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: McVay says 'F you alt.rev. readers'
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:16:38 GMT
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X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	From "McVay folds to Moran's royal flush"	

Mr. Green posted a Nizkor version of a report by the Poles on
existing cyanide traces at Auschwitz. Moran posted a critique analysis
to show that it was useless under "Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today".
Moran recognized there were passeges interjected in the report and
attributed them to McVay. Moran mentioned McVay by name a number of
times.
	Eventually Mr.Green and Professor Keren responded with some
rather emotional argument, but McVay never shows up.
	McVay didn't even come back and try to bluff his way out with
his usual pair of deuces. 


	The recap: The Polish report taken from Nizkor files is laced
with McVay's interjection without notes stating when and where and to
what extent. This is the charge. After a weeks goading to get McVay to
come out and set the record straight he shows up with:

"Darn, I did so want it to be a surprise, Mr. Steintrov. By the
way, are we still on for the LG photo tour next week? (Or should 
we just skip the entertainment, find a good pub, and get right to 
the Guiness?)
(Spoke to some local folks today who will be calling you
regarding that Guiness, and some other stuff. 'tis cool.)"

-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational
Resource
      Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
            Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction -
permanently!)


	 If he wanted to be taken as a personal communication with
Moran he should have sent it e-mail, but he posted here, aimed a
whoever. In other words 'F you', any readers'.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 26 11:44:06 PDT 1996
Article: 32817 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.sojourn.com!news.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ordinary Germans Provoked
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:57:02 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <317f8178.2280266@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-6.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

	
                	New York Times, 4/25/96
	"Germans, Jews and Blame: New Book, New Pain"

	Inset: "A storm over a new study of the Nazi era by a Harvard
professor"

	"Now that an American scholar has offered his answer in the
latest of thousands of books addressing the question, few Germans, to
judge from reviews and the assessments of German historians, seems to
like what he said."

	"The German response, in a flurry of published articles, has
been to condemn the book as lacking in scholarship, one sided,
derivative, down right wrong and willfully provocative."

	Well this is what Goldhagen, practicing the principles of
chutzpah intended. Provokation. Or was he so stupid to think the
Germans or anyone else would say, 'Oh', how wonderful'. Less Jews of
course, who think it was. Perhaps the only ones.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 26 11:44:06 PDT 1996
Article: 32822 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!inquo!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 18:40:17 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <317fc70d.20093597@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <4lmuq9$rbr@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

	"In regard to [b] you will recall that one of our
unprofessional chemists said that HCN was not a a burn by-product.
The holohuggers will ignore all of their professional education in
order to support some lie about the holocaust."

	I recall seeing this also. Do you recall where, so it can be
posted in the thread? Maybe the one who directed the lie towards the
whole group will come out and reitierate it in defiance. 

  
>
>
>-------------------
>alt.revisionism
>
>6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
>
>   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 26 11:44:07 PDT 1996
Article: 32823 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!inquo!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay says 'F you alt.rev. readers'
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 18:40:00 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 16
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References: <317f8646.3510696@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm3-3.pacificnet.net
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Lets try it another way.
Count 1.
	McVay. You stand accused of interjecting your own material
into a report that is on file in Nizkor and has been posted on
alt.revisionism. That you did it without notice, that you purposely
modified the report in an attempt at escalating its conclusions beyond
what the report concludes, in favor of the Holocaust story, that you
willfully tampered with the text by so doing.

Count 2.
	That the parts you did interject, were and are rambling,
filled with un-necessary detail and lead to mundane conclusions. In
short, desperate and idiotic.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 26 15:09:30 PDT 1996
Article: 32848 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay says 'F you alt.rev. readers'
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:53:39 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 74
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>
># Eventually Mr.Green and Professor Keren responded with some
># rather emotional argument, but McVay never shows up.
>
>The "emotional argument" consisted of pointing out that Moran 
>bases his "arguments" on a conjecture he made about the rate of 
>release of HCN from Zyklon. However:

	Evidentally the professor has gotten two articles mixed up.
The one here is in referrence to "Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today"
and the professor is responding to "Zyklon B - unlikely agent". But
since it's here lets take a look at the professor's method of denial.

>1) Moran admits that he has no source for his conjecture. He 
>   also failed to provide any logical foundation to support it.

	Moran figured it all out using the figures the professor
himself supplied. In the first exchange on the subject the professor
referred to the cyphering as Moranic. Moran told him that wouldn't do,
he would have to come back and correct the figures. He never returned.

Now professor, show where Moran "admits" and "failed". Just saying so
won't do it professor. You should post the thing and then show
whatever.

>2) His conjecture totally contradicts the information in
>   the original Zyklon patent.

	The professor never gave any figures from the patent. He only
referred to it, that it said the rate of release was "somewhat
faster".

>3) His conjecture totally contradicts information in a book by
>   Dr. Gerhard Peters, the leading scientist and later general
>   director of Degesch, the firm that manufactured the Zyklon.

	The professor never posted anything by Dr. Gerhard Peters. The
professor at one time said he was going to post the patent, but never
has.

>4) His conjecture even contradicts data about the rate of release
>   supplied by other "revisionists".

	The figure used was supplied by the professor himself, "Even
'revisionist chemist' Germar Rudolph stated that about 40% of the HCN
..." 

>In short, Moran is a crazy little megalomaniac. End of debate.

The professor here, has made a number of statements about how a
previous debate has taken place, but he did not cite anything
whatsoever. All he did was make some statements and announced "End of
debate".

	Don't worry professor, its coming again and then you can show
your stuff. 
	Maybe the professor is playing a dirty trick here. Maybe he
didn't make a mistake. Maybe he did it in an attempt at muddying the
waters of the post that puts big pressure on McVay and Nizkor in
general. What about it professor. Was it a mistake or was it
intentional?
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Apr 26 23:52:32 PDT 1996
Article: 32882 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.vancouver.istar.net!news.vancouver.istar.net!west.news.istar.net!van-bc!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mass Graves in the Ukraine  I (was Re: Some Holocaust Facts)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:20:56 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 131
Message-ID: <317f7b84.756372@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <317ce837.3908243@news.pacificnet.net> <317d78a8.25238144@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Apr 1996 14:36:54 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>
>>	"Although none have been found and identified, there are at
>>least 15 mass grave sites where at least 10 thousand people and up to
>>40,000 and on to 2,000,000 were buried and/or cremated in each one."
>
>Mr. Morris responded:
>"No? None have ever been found and identified?
>Then I wonder what professor Richard Wright, an Australian professor
>of archaeology is on about in the following lecture:"
>                         ===========
                          
	                  ===========	
	This report taken from the files of Nizkor and submitted by
Mr.Morris is not a report, it is a lecture as he admits to, but it
will be referred to here as a report since Mr. Morris has submitted it
as evidence to counter the claim that no mass graves with the numbers
mentioned have been found.   
 
	I could have very well just have left it to stand without
comment since it obviously does not address the "mass graves" numbers
which are given throughout Holocaust books, ranging from 10,000 to
40,000 people buried in one single grave (as specified in the lead
article), or, in a series of graves in very close proximity as to the
story about Treblinka's 2,000,000 in 40 acres, which are the numbers
posted. Unraveling the truths and lies of the Holocaust means
addressing the alleged methods and events, which in the end are always
accompanied by numbers.  

	What Mr.Morris has done is to come along and drop in one grain
of black sand onto the otherwise white sandy beach and is now trying
to tell us the whole beach is black. As it turns out, even
Mr. Morris's one black grain may be really grey. 

	He does not, or the report does not, inform us who exactly was
responsible for what they found. I don't recall ever seeing any
revisionist minded people coming out and saying no atrocities ever
took place. I personally recognize there was considerable killing done
in the East. From what I have been able to picture, going by Holocaust
book accounts, is that most of the killing was done by the native
inhabitants of Eastern area, or with their full co-operation and
particiption. There seems to have been a number of photographs taken
that attest to the killing with many of them, if not most of them
showing the natives zealously involved. 

	At the beginning of the report, the lecturer states "Our work
was done to support three prosecutions made in Adelaide under War
Crimes Legislation". Adelaide is in Australia. Evidentally the
Australian government had been induced to carry out charges brought by
someone. The unit cited, which is within the Attorney General's
Department has the name "Special Investigations Unit". A similar one
set up in the U.S. to track down war crimanals carries the name
"Office of Special Investigations", the one found to have manipulated
and concealed evidence in the John Demjajuk case. The report does not
tell us what nationality the defendants were. Were they German,
Austrian or Ukrainian? The report says nothing about guilty or not
guilty.  

	I personally have no problem with what is stated to have been
found. Even though the report does not address whether or not the
victims were Jewish, I would accept that they could very well have
been. 

	Even though the lecturer alludes to "have brought forward new
material evidence of three particular episodes in the holocaust ..."
he covers only two.

	These were at two Ukrainian sites, Serniki and Ustinovska.
They found for the two sites a total of about 700 people. They found
"that the killers had used German ammunition". This is it. Period.

	The part of the original post which Mr.Morris has responded to
by posting this lecture reads: "Although none have been found and
identified, there are at least 15 mass grave sites where at least 10
thousand people and up to 40,000 and on to 2,000,000 were buried
and/or cremated in each one". 
	
	Holocaust books give very close descriptions as to locals when
asserting that up to 40,000 people were buried at one grave site in
the Eastern zone. Like the names of towns and specific proximate
locations, like the grave yard. They also claim exact locations within
Auschwitz, like just outside of Crematoria III. 

	What Mr. Morris has submitted here, in response, is an account
that can, at most, support only .0001% of the claim that 6,000,000
Jews had been killed, and in no way, even remotely challenges the
initial numerical specifics of the post he has responded to.

	We could suppose that Mr.Morris has submitted the best
evidence available. The lecturer states along the way "I am not alone
in thinking that archeological methodology has a role in the
investigation of the murders".

	This poses serious problems for the Holocaust story. As far as
I know, this is the first time any of the war criminal charges has
been subjected to forensic study to arrive at any truth.

	It seems in recent years there has been more and more activity
in proving the Holocaust by the empiracal route. The results over the
longer term will be that if something is found, it will be accepted,
and inversely, if nothing is found it will be doubted. Sort of like it
is now, only by a wider body of people.

	So far, from what I have seen, every scientific study done to
prove the Holocaust story, as to events and magnitude, have been
dismal failures. 

	Applying the scientific method to supporting Holocaust facts
is way over due. In the case at hand they evidently had some good
memory working by a reliable witness. Perhaps this is the only case
where a eyewitness account has been substantiated by forensic study. 

	A dilemma is created. Now that they have uncovered some
remains in a archeological fashion, the demand for more could rise.
The tenacity of precidence. In this case, the focus for the next place
to be excavated would be those places that are said to hold tens of
thousands of people. Barring this or any more lesser finds, the
examples here could be the only ones to appear in the Holocaust story.





	


	



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 27 00:00:05 PDT 1996
Article: 44364 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.vancouver.istar.net!news.vancouver.istar.net!west.news.istar.net!van-bc!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics
Subject: "Red Alert" for U.S. citizens
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:30:54 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <317f8b5e.4814286@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-6.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	Not reported in the U.S. press, but so done in England,  a
"Red Alert" travel advisory has been posted for Israeli people abroad
and any of their allies. Determining who Israel's ally(s) are is not
very difficult. They only have one. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 27 06:44:43 PDT 1996
Article: 32964 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.azstarnet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mass Graves in the Ukraine  I (was Re: Some Holocaust Facts)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:49:44 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 304
Message-ID: <3180b5fa.726383@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <317ce837.3908243@news.pacificnet.net> <317d78a8.25238144@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <317f7b84.756372@news.pacificnet.net> <3180048e.17185919@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:20:56 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 23 Apr 1996 14:36:54 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>	"Although none have been found and identified, there are at
>>>>least 15 mass grave sites where at least 10 thousand people and up to
>>>>40,000 and on to 2,000,000 were buried and/or cremated in each one."
>>>
>>>Mr. Morris responded:
>>>"No? None have ever been found and identified?
>>>Then I wonder what professor Richard Wright, an Australian professor
>>>of archaeology is on about in the following lecture:"
>>>                         ===========
>>                          
>>	                  ===========	
>>	This report taken from the files of Nizkor and submitted by
>>Mr.Morris is not a report, it is a lecture as he admits to, but it
>>will be referred to here as a report since Mr. Morris has submitted it
>>as evidence to counter the claim that no mass graves with the numbers
>>mentioned have been found.   
>
>A grand way to start: with a stunned irrelevance
>
>> 
>>	I could have very well just have left it to stand without
>>comment since it obviously does not address the "mass graves" numbers
>>which are given throughout Holocaust books, ranging from 10,000 to
>>40,000 people buried in one single grave (as specified in the lead
>>article),
>
>Most of the mass graves are a great deal smaller than the numbers you
>cite. You have picked two unusually large examples in order to make
>the history of the Holocaust sound absurd. That is a dishonest way of
>proceeding.

	I've seen photos of atrocities being committed in the East.
Some of them involve hundreds of people. The Holocaust is a story of
numbers. The Holocaust story cites numbers like 10,20 and 40 thousand
killed all at once, in a single incident. These are the graves you
have to show. No one grain of black sand.

>> or, in a series of graves in very close proximity as to the
>>story about Treblinka's 2,000,000 in 40 acres, which are the numbers
>>posted.
>
>The official death toll for Treblinka, as established by the Court of
>Assizes in Dusseldorf in the 1960s and early 1970s was 700,000. Many
>historians now set the death toll at 900,000. Your number is simply a
>made up number.

	I got the number from the Leleko report. Leleko the eyewitness
account.
>
>The Polish Commission of Inquiry report does not indicate that there
>was a 40-acre grave at Treblinka. What is does say is that several
>graves approximately seven meters deep are distributed over a site of
>about five acres. Your number is simply a made up number.

	Again leleko. He said 16 hectares, which is about 40 acres.
He's your witness. The report should be on your screen right now. You
know about it. I've sliced it up. Why don't you go over there and set
the record straight?
>
>I note that the findings of this commission have been accepted--for
>rather stupid reasons, but accepted nonetheless--by the revisionists
>Mark Weber and Andrew Allen as may be seen in the IHR article on
>Treblinka.
>
>> Unraveling the truths and lies of the Holocaust means
>>addressing the alleged methods and events, which in the end are always
>>accompanied by numbers.  
>
>Unraveling, the particular lies of Tom Moran means addressing his
>methods which already appear to be simply to make up numbers as he
>goes along.

	Didn't you submit a report in response to the posting "Where
are the Mass Graves"? Why didn't you submit that one along with this
one? Is it because I already sliced that one up too?
>
>>
>>	What Mr.Morris has done is to come along and drop in one grain
>>of black sand onto the otherwise white sandy beach and is now trying
>>to tell us the whole beach is black. As it turns out, even
>>Mr. Morris's one black grain may be really grey. 
>
>No. What I have done is to address your claim that "none have been
>found and identified." None is none. I have offered evidence of two
>which is two more than none.

	Did you leave out something in your quote?

>
>>	He does not, or the report does not, inform us who exactly was
>>responsible for what they found.
>
>Well, duh. The man is giving a lecture about evidence of Nazi
>atrocities. Do you suppose he is talking about Rwanda or Cambodia?
>
>> I don't recall ever seeing any
>>revisionist minded people coming out and saying no atrocities ever
>>took place. I personally recognize there was considerable killing done
>>in the East.
>
>That "considerable killing done in the East" amounts to nearly
>2,000,000 victims according to the Nazis' own reports. That is part of
>the Holocaust, too.
>
>We spend so much time on gas chambers in alt.revisionism only because
>"revisionists" like it that way. It is easy to make gas chambers sound
>absurd, because most people have nothing to compare the idea to and
>because it is difficult to imagine civilized people deliberately
>building facilities solely for the purpose of murdering other human
>beings. But come to the killing squads, then everyone understands
>because they can see killing squads on the nightly news.
>
>"Revisionists" avoid the killing squads like the plague because they
>are so well documented from Western sources. Once "revisionists" admit
>the killing squads, they have to admit that the Nazis were guilty of
>the most horrific atrocities.
>
>> From what I have been able to picture, going by Holocaust
>>book accounts, is that most of the killing was done by the native
>>inhabitants of Eastern area, or with their full co-operation and
>>particiption. There seems to have been a number of photographs taken
>>that attest to the killing with many of them, if not most of them
>>showing the natives zealously involved. 
>
>Even if it was true that the majority of the killing was done by
>native inhabitants,--and it is not true--they were organized and
>directed by the Nazis.
>
>>	At the beginning of the report, the lecturer states "Our work
>>was done to support three prosecutions made in Adelaide under War
>>Crimes Legislation". Adelaide is in Australia. Evidentally the
>>Australian government had been induced to carry out charges brought by
>>someone.
>
>The Jews, right? Well, of course, Jews have appealed for war crimes
>prosecutions: Jews were the victims after all. But you, Tom Moran, are
>so Jew-obsessed that you cannot understand that persons of good
>conscience could respond to those appeals out of a sense of moral
>duty. Instead you imagine some kind of international Jewish conspiracy
>that has its way with every government in the world.
>
>> The unit cited, which is within the Attorney General's
>>Department has the name "Special Investigations Unit". A similar one
>>set up in the U.S. to track down war crimanals carries the name
>>"Office of Special Investigations", the one found to have manipulated
>>and concealed evidence in the John Demjajuk case.
>
>Fog and mush.
>
>> The report does not
>>tell us what nationality the defendants were. Were they German,
>>Austrian or Ukrainian? The report says nothing about guilty or not
>>guilty.  
>
>Of course not. The lecture is about the work of finding and
>identifying the graves. If Wright had wanted to give a lecture on the
>prosecution, he could have done that. But he didn't.
>
>>	I personally have no problem with what is stated to have been
>>found. Even though the report does not address whether or not the
>>victims were Jewish, I would accept that they could very well have
>>been. 
>
>Oh, but it does. If you had read carefully you would have noticed that
>Wright is very clear that the grave sites give material corroboration
>to what witnesses said happened at the sites.
>
>On the other hand, are you saying that mass murder doesn't matter if
>the victims were not Jewish? Are you not thus relegating other victims
>of the Holocaust to the footnotes?
>
>>	Even though the lecturer alludes to "have brought forward new
>>material evidence of three particular episodes in the holocaust ..."
>>he covers only two.
>
>That's because only two were originally posted. Gee, I guess that's
>proof of something.
>
>>	These were at two Ukrainian sites, Serniki and Ustinovska.
>>They found for the two sites a total of about 700 people. They found
>>"that the killers had used German ammunition". This is it. Period.
>
>Not just any German ammunition. German ammunition date stamped as no
>later than 1941. If someone other than Germans had done the killing,
>they would have needed lots of German ammunition with the specific
>dates of manufacture on them. And again, witnesses said that German
>units did the killings, and the evidence of the ammunition is
>consistent with the time frame and the perpetrators. It is a matter of
>putting two and two together and not coming up with 40,000.
>
>>	The part of the original post which Mr.Morris has responded to
>>by posting this lecture reads: "Although none have been found and
>>identified, there are at least 15 mass grave sites where at least 10
>>thousand people and up to 40,000 and on to 2,000,000 were buried
>>and/or cremated in each one". 
>
>Yes, and I have answered your absolute claim that there were "none."
>
>>	Holocaust books give very close descriptions as to locals when
>>asserting that up to 40,000 people were buried at one grave site in
>>the Eastern zone.
>
>Yes, in exceptional examples like Babi Yar.
>
>> Like the names of towns and specific proximate
>>locations, like the grave yard. They also claim exact locations within
>>Auschwitz, like just outside of Crematoria III. 
>
>What are you saying? Are you saying that it would be more likely that
>the vents didn't occur because historians *couldn't* name precise
>locations?
>
>>	What Mr. Morris has submitted here, in response, is an account
>>that can, at most, support only .0001% of the claim that 6,000,000
>>Jews had been killed, and in no way, even remotely challenges the
>>initial numerical specifics of the post he has responded to.
>
>This is a silly argument. By the same token I could say that in your
>Jew-obsessed imaginings that Jews rule the world but your complaint
>about the numbers of trees planted in accounts for only 0.00000000001%
>of the crimes you think Jews have committed against the world.
>
>If you want to look at specific accounts of other atrocities, read
>some books, but don't expect me to key them all into a Usenet post.
>
>>
>>	We could suppose that Mr.Morris has submitted the best
>>evidence available.
>
>Not at all. I don't believe in the concept of "best evidence." That's
>just something Greg Raven parrots from Robert Faurisson. Perhaps you
>would like to produce your "best evidence" that there was ever a Roman
>Empire.
>
>> The lecturer states along the way "I am not alone
>>in thinking that archeological methodology has a role in the
>>investigation of the murders".
>>
>>	This poses serious problems for the Holocaust story. As far as
>>I know, this is the first time any of the war criminal charges has
>>been subjected to forensic study to arrive at any truth.
>
>What you know or do not know is hardly proof that the Holocaust didn't
>happen
>
>>	It seems in recent years there has been more and more activity
>>in proving the Holocaust by the empiracal route.
>
>Yes. Historiography moves from broad narrative to material instances.
>And, of course, "revisionist" propaganda efforts have made scholars
>sit up and take notice of the many, many things that we still do not
>know about the Holocaust. What we do not know is by itself reason
>enough to subject the Holocaust to the same critical scrutiny and more
>finely-grained descriptions that other  historical events receive.
>Don't expect the Holocaust to disappear as an historical issue any
>time soon.
>
>> The results over the
>>longer term will be that if something is found, it will be accepted,
>>and inversely, if nothing is found it will be doubted. Sort of like it
>>is now, only by a wider body of people.
>
>??????????????
>
>>	So far, from what I have seen, every scientific study done to
>>prove the Holocaust story, as to events and magnitude, have been
>>dismal failures. 
>
>Like you'd know. Even someone as weak in the sciences as I am can see
>that you have been talking through your hat.
>
>>	Applying the scientific method to supporting Holocaust facts
>>is way over due. In the case at hand they evidently had some good
>>memory working by a reliable witness. Perhaps this is the only case
>>where a eyewitness account has been substantiated by forensic study. 
>
>Nope.
>
>>	A dilemma is created. Now that they have uncovered some
>>remains in a archeological fashion, the demand for more could rise.
>>The tenacity of precidence. In this case, the focus for the next place
>>to be excavated would be those places that are said to hold tens of
>>thousands of people. Barring this or any more lesser finds, the
>>examples here could be the only ones to appear in the Holocaust story.
>
>Wishful thinking is no substitute for scholarship.
>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 27 06:44:43 PDT 1996
Article: 33033 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A condo for Finsten
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 13:03:03 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <31821ab4.895826@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31750d1a.8183715@news.pacificnet.net> <4lmlfn$igg@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4louar$pp0@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4lp2le$sip@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4lr7c5$987@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-18.pacificnet.net
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <4lp2le$sip@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, 
>rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:
>
>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) writes:
>
>>>I remember my sister's cat.
>
>>My sincere condolences.
>
>Not only do I remember my sister's cat, but my rigii is flatly
>paupacitic at the explicits, because neither is mentioned in
>the Wannasee Protocols, nor can reference to its be found on
>the Mall or the Khmer Rouge Period Cambodian Embassy either
>or.
>
>My sister did not have a cat.
>I did not have a sister.
>
>Thank you for understooding.
McVay, where is your admission or denial to the charfges youtampered
with the copy from the Polish report? You have time to be childishly
witty over here, whats up?
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>      Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>            Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 27 09:32:48 PDT 1996
Article: 33039 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: This will be interesting, to say the least
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 13:22:58 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <31821d6a.1589968@news.pacificnet.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-18.pacificnet.net
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article , 
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
>>If you can do this, you might deserve to have your allegation taken
>>seriously.  (Given your previous track record of mind-bogglingly
>>inane misunderstandings, though, you might not.)
>
>The Moran has since charged that the document in question is
>the Crakow Institute's Post-Leuchter report... this should be
>delightfully entertaining, and more than a tad interesting,
>since I, unlike Mr. Moran, actually have the hard copy here...
>
>Go ahead, Moran, make my day. Put your money where your mouth
>is, Bucky. 

The report is the one posted by Richard Green, 28 March, 1996, under
"Auschwitz Myths and Facts".

 "THE STUDY OF THE CYANIDE COMPOUNDS CONTENT IN THE WALLS OF THE GAS
CHAMBERS IN THE FORMER AUSCHWITZ AND BIRKENAU CONCENTRATION CAMPS".

You know. You've been following it.

You say above:
"The Moran has since charged that the document in question is
the Crakow Institute's Post-Leuchter report..."

If you want to play games around what exactly the titles are go ahead.


Why don't you just post whatever "hard copy" you say you have above
and we can go from there. 
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>      Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>            Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 27 10:59:03 PDT 1996
Article: 33094 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay says 'F you alt.rev. readers'
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 14:44:15 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <31822f43.6158685@news.pacificnet.net>
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>> Count 1.
>>         McVay. You stand accused of interjecting your own material
>> into a report that is on file in Nizkor and has been posted on
>> alt.revisionism. That you did it without notice, that you purposely
>> modified the report in an attempt at escalating its conclusions beyond
>> what the report concludes, in favor of the Holocaust story, that you
>> willfully tampered with the text by so doing.
>
>Unlike Mr. Moran's previous ramblings, this is pretty precise.
>
>Mr. Moran, give a URL for this material at Nizkor which Mr. McVay
>allegedly tampered with, and specify precisely what text you believe
>was "interjected...without notice."  If its length is within reason,
>which I'd think it would be, please copy and paste the "interjected"
>material directly into your reply.
>
>If you can do this, you might deserve to have your allegation taken
>seriously.  (Given your previous track record of mind-bogglingly
>inane misunderstandings, though, you might not.)

	At one time Jamie McCarthy responded that he would respond to
a posted critique of the Nizkor site. Moran named ftps on the site
directly, in the same fashion Nizkor ftps themselves are set up. In a
massive evasion, participated in by many of the Holocaust Defense
League, the whole thing turned into a "Where are the URLs?"	
	Jamie himself is cited as a Nizkor "co-webmaster" and here he
is asking for the URLs again. 
	By so doing, Jamie says anyone reading this is a fool. The
whole sequence of this has been identified by article titles in which
Mr.Green identified the "Archive/File: pub/orgs/polish/institute-for
forensic-research/post-leucter.report.
	
N w c w t HDL c o a s a n w a t URLs c t a i t e. 

>Posted/emailed;  Cc'd to Mr. McVay.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
> to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 27 10:59:04 PDT 1996
Article: 33097 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay says 'F you alt.rev. readers'
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 14:55:45 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <318233d5.7328368@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <317f8646.3510696@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Imagine. These persons responding are actively engaged in
slandering another peoples history, pressing horrible stories of tales
>from  the crypt as true and here they are with their little witty cute
evasions. How incredibly unaesthetic.
	Let us continue. 
	The more evasions the more the evidence of evasion.
	These responses may seem to be aimed at Moran, but they are
posted out here on the public forum.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 27 10:59:05 PDT 1996
Article: 33102 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: WOW "100 MEGABYTES" WOW
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:17:34 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <31823a29.8948271@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-4.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

		
	HAPPY 100 MEGABYTES DAY TO NIZKOR.

Nizkor celebrates:

"At midnight, April 15,1996, there were 105,196,434 bytes in Nizkor
FTP Archives: 100.32 MEGABYTES. We's like to pause for just a moment
to observe this milestone. It's been a long four years in the making."

WOW. It seems that Nizkor mentalities find that the quality of their
site is directly proportional to the number of bytes it has.

Sort of like a Argumentum ad plenty. The more you have, the more valid
the contents.

Could it be that the trio sat by the computer while it went over the
100 megabytes at midnight 4/15/96 like waiting for the New Year? 

Can you picture it? The trio jumping around and hugging each other,
blowing the little horns and sipping some champaign from McVay's wine
collection. "Dom Perignon, of course", according to McVays personal
bio.

  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 27 11:39:00 PDT 1996
Article: 33104 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor lies alert
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:45:16 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 105
Message-ID: <31823f33.10238953@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4lj9dj$74a@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4lsqa5$cpa@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-4.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Official Nizkor Code of Responding
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 15:17:07 GMT

	
	                    Hillary Ostrov
                        (Nizkor co-webmaster)
			   alt.revisionism
			"No Zyklone - then DDT"

	          "Many of us believe that ridicule
                  is the most appropriate response to
                  one who(offers) up thoroughly idiotic
                  questions and responses."

	


========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Official Nizkor Code of Responding
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 06:13:00 GMT

In <4d3dv7$abf@zippy.cais.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>>	
>>	                    Hillary Ostrov
>>                        (Nizkor co-webmaster)
>>			   alt.revisionism
>>			"No Zyklone - then DDT"

>>	          "Many of us believe that ridicule
>>                  is the most appropriate response to
>>                  one who(offers) up thoroughly idiotic
>>                  questions and responses."

>>	
>	Of course if any revisionist would have been so stupid as to post
>something like this, Nizkorites would jump all over them. 

Mr. Moran shows his denier-colours  - and his amazing facility with
one of the favourite tactics of those who mistakenly call themselves
revisionists - by citing my _personal_ comments out of context, and
misquoting them to boot (not to mention showing his disrespect by
spelling my name incorrectly).

Furthermore, the "Official Nizkor Code of Responding" is to do so with
the facts - and accurate citations presented in context.  In the
spirit of which, herewith the context and my comment:

[Mr. Moran's questions following his insightful postulation that he
"must be offering up thoroughly idiotic questions and responses":]

>	You [Mr. Van Alstine] say that I am the subject of "harrassment" and "ridicule"?

>Does this mean these are techniques used by yourself and your
>Holocausterclones, in lieu of direct response? 

[My response, after I had pointed out that Mr. Van Alstine had merely
observed that Mr. Moran was the _object_ of *embarrassment* (not
harrassment) and ridicule:]

	Definitely not!  You do an admirable job of bringing
embarrassment on
	yourself.  And as for ridicule vs "direct response" .... well,
many 
	of us believe that ridicule *is* the most appropriate "direct 
	response" to one who "[offers] up thoroughly idiotic questions
and 	
	responses"

Another "fraudian slip", Mr. Moran? I can see that you are well on
your way to a guaranteed nomination for denier-clone of the year
award.

hro





=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/

	
	                    Hillary Ostrov
                        (Nizkor co-webmaster)
			   
	          "Many of us believe that ridicule
                  is the most appropriate response to
                  one who(offers) up thoroughly idiotic
                  questions and responses."
	
	Of course she means that she and the rest of the Holocaust
Defense League will determine which ones are subject to the code. 
	Imagine. These people are involved in desecrating the history
of many societies.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Apr 27 11:39:02 PDT 1996
Article: 33107 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:53:03 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 175
Message-ID: <318242dc.11175424@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-28.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


		Behold the lie, tell your friends.

	For those who are new to investigating whether or not the
Holocaust story is true I present you with this simple introductory
sequence of material. None of it is revisionist, meaning none of it
comes from those who deny the greater part of this Holocaust story. It
is all based on what the pushers of the story give themselves.

	A few years ago a major revision to the story was announced.
After much crying and charging of "anti-Semitism" and "neo-Nazism"
those who are so eager and dedicated to perpetuating the story have
had to accept it. The gigantic revision was the reduction of the
previously claimed number of 4,000,000 people said to have been
exterminated at Auschwitz down to the currently accepted claim of
1,000,000, a 3,000,000 (75%) reduction. Among those dedicated to
keeping the story at a high saturation in our every day lives is the
Simon Wiesenthal Center and here I present their words on the matter
so you can be confortable in accepting that there is a revision
process taking place to which even they have had to swallow, if not a
bit begrudgingly and as we will see, with a certain lack of grace,
style and respect for those the statement is aimed at. 

	As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

                            --------
	
       "For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
Shouldn't the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
are much lower than previously thought?"

*("well over" meaning 4 million)

	The center then goes into a paragraph about how it was an
"invention" of the communist government of Poland and the U.S.S.R.,
"to blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering", that they "purposely
overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at Auschwitz-Birkenau
by many times" and in order to "disguise the subterfuge" ... "the
figures for Jewish losses were inflated by nearly double, so that
their losses would still be larger than those of non-Jewish victims".
       
        Instead of trying to figure this out at this time we can just
go on to the motive behind this rather confusing logic.

	"The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the Holocaust
has always been in line with the lower Auschwitz figures."

                             ---------

	Now recalling the Wiesenthal Center's claim that the overall
6,000,000 number of Jews never was based on a higher figure at
Auschwitz and thus is still 6,000,000, after the revision of 4,000,000
down to 1,000,000, we can review the contradictory listing below to
see if they are telling the truth or are in fact committing a
blasphemy against the truth and are insulting the reader.
	
  
   Yehuda Bauer's _A History of the Holocaust_ (c. 1982) lists the
   Auschwitz death toll as between 1.5 and 3.5 million Jews
	
   Poliakov's _Harvest of Hate_ (c. 1956) lists the total Auschwitz 
   dead at about 2,300,000.
 
   "Auschwitz" _The World Book Encyclopedia_.  Chicago: World Book,
   1980.  2,500,000

   Billig, Joseph.  _Les camps de concentration dans l'economie du
   Reich hitlerien_.  Paris: Presses universitaires de France, 1973.
   pp 101-102. 2,000,000

   Encyclopedia Judaica, Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1974.  p
   855.  1,000,000 to 2,500,000

   Friedman, Filip.  _This Was Oswiecim: The Story of a Murder Camp_.
   Translated from the Yiddish original by Joseph Leftwich.  London:
   The United Jewish Relief Appeal, 1946, 14. 4,000,000 to 5,000,000

   Kamenetksy, Ihor.  _Secret Nazi Plans for Eastern Europe_.  New
   Haven: College and University Press, 1961.  p174   2,500,000

   Kogon, Eugene. _Der SS Staat_.  Berlin,  1974, 157.  3,500,000 to

   4,500,000
   
   Wellers, Georges.  "Essai de determination du nombre de morts au
   camp d'Auschwitz" _Le Monde Juif_, Oct-Dec 1 1983, 127-59, 
   1,600,000
   
   Brestrafung der Verbrecher von Auschwitz, in _Auschwitz:
   Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des Vernichtungslagers_.  Reinbek bei
   Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 211.  2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Czech, D.  "Konzentrationslager Auschwitz: Abriss der Geschichte,"
   in _Auschwitz: Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des
   Konzentrationslagers_.  Reinbek bei Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 42.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Dunin-Wasowicz, Krzysztof.  _Resistance in the Nazi concentration
   camps, 1933-1945_.  Warsaw: PWN-Polish Scientific Publishers, 1982,
   44. 	2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Madajczyk, Czeslaw.  _Polityka III Rzeszy w okupowanej Polsce;
   okupacja Polski, 1939-1945_.  Warsaw: Panstwowe Wydawn Naukowe,
   1970, 293-94.  2,800,000 to 4,000,000

   _Obozy hitlerowskie na ziemiach polskich 1939-1945: informator
   encyklopedyczny_.  Warsaw: Panst.  Wydaw.  Naukowe DSP, 1979, 369.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Nora Levin's "The Holocaust",  2,000,000 to 2,300,000
  
   Rabbi Dr. Moshe Weiss, The Jewish Press Friday April 5, 1991
   Yom HaShoah - Holocaust Remembrance. 3,000,000

   
                             -------

	So, even though the Simon Wiesenthal Center claims the
6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "has always been in line with
the lower figures" it is obvious that there is some recorded evidence
to show this statement to be down right false, since they clearly cite
anywhere from 2,000,000 to 3,500,000 Jews killed at Auschwitz, which
would make the 6,000,000 figure considerably lower if we used those
numbers instead of the newer currently accepted number of 1,000,000
Jews.

	This poster has over the years witnessed many times in our
daily press the figure of 4,000,000 people said to have been put to
death at Auschwitz, 3,000,000 being Jewish. 3,000,000 Jews killed at
Auschwitz is the common prevalant 'street number' held in the minds of
those who have had any experience on the subject. I would invite
anyone to do their own poll by asking friends or acquaintances what
number they have in their heads as to the number of people said to
have been put to death at Auschwitz and how many they think were Jews,
to see how wide spread the figures are.
	
	Since the Simon Wiesenthal Center is the foremost organization
involved with saturating the minds of the people with the Holocaust
story and the main sponsor of Holocaust museums we must assume they
are knowledgable of the material that has been put forth and thus are
committing a lie. 
	In lieu of the evidence we should ask: If the Simon Wiesenthal
Center claims the 6,000,000 number was never contingent on the
pre-revised number why didn't they make an attempt at setting the
record straight? 				    
	It cannot be shown that the Holocaust perpetuators were the
initiating force behind this huge revision and others, but in fact
struggled energetically to keep it from happening. It could also be
suggested that if it was not for revisionist energy the Holocaust
beneficiaries would have let the old figures stay as they were.

       	     Behold the Lie - Ask Your Friends

	How many people do you think were killed at Auschwitz?
	How many do you think were Jewish?

	The current figure is now given as 1,000,000, 900,000, 600,000
or 300,000 - take your pick. You will hear 3,000,000. Then wonder to
yourself how Simon Wiesenthal and his company of Holocaust
beneficiaries can say the 6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "was
always in line" with the revised figures which came 45 years later.
	
	WARNING: Even though this gigantic modification to the story
has taken place and is currently accepted by the world, along with a
number of other major revisions, Holocaust revisionists still chipping
away at the credibility of the remaining story are still dubbed
"anti-Semites" and "neo-Nazis".
	
	
		



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 28 10:09:46 PDT 1996
Article: 33344 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay says 'F you alt.rev. readers'
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 12:16:38 GMT
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References: <317f8646.3510696@news.pacificnet.net> <317fc6fa.20074208@news.pacificnet.net>  <31822f43.6158685@news.pacificnet.net> <27APR199609474327@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> 
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> 
>> Mr. Moran, give a URL for this material at Nizkor which Mr. McVay
>> allegedly tampered with, and specify precisely what text you believe
>> was "interjected...without notice."
>
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>[In an earlier discussion]
>> ...the whole thing turned into a "Where are the URLs?"    
>> Jamie himself is cited as a Nizkor "co-webmaster" and here he
>> is asking for the URLs again.
>
>I'll tell you what.  I'll give you the URLs as a head start.  Here are
>the pages that you could be talking about:
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/post-leuchter.report
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/introduction.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/methodology-one.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/methodology-two.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/table-one.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/table-two.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/table-three.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/table-four.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/table-five.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/table-six.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/conclusions-one.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/methodology-three.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/table-seven.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/conclusions-two.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/final-remarks.html
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/footnotes.html
>
>Now, Mr. Moran, please specify which text, at which URLs, was allegedly
>tampered with and/or "interjected...without notice."
>
>We're waiting, Mr. Moran.

	Who is "we're"?

	Keep it up Jamie. You have Moran focused in your head when you
post things, not taking into account any other readers, beside the HDL
of course, who can easily recognize evasion.
	Here is the full report. Post if you still want the URL.
                            ==================


ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/post-leuchter.report



Archive/File: 
pub/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/post-leuchter.report
Last-Modified: 1996/01/12
[typos mine. knm]

A STUDY OF THE CYANIDE COMPOUNDS CONTENT IN THE WALLS OF THE
      GAS CHAMBERS IN THE FORMER AUSCHWITZ AND BIRKENAU
                     CONCENTRATION CAMPS

JAN MARKIEWICZ, WOJCIECH GUBALA, JERZY LABEDZ
Institute  of Forensic Research, Cracow


ABSTRACT: In a widespread campaign to deny the existence  of
extermination  camps  with gas chambers  the  "revisionsits"
have  recently started using the results of the examiantions
of  fragments  of ruins of former crematoria. These  results
(Leuchter, Rudolf) allegedly prove that the materials  under
examination had not been in contact with cyanide, unlike the
wall   fragments  of  delousing  buildings  in   which   the
revisionists  discovered  considerable  amount  of   cyanide
compounds.  Systematic  research, involving  most  sensitive
analytical  methods,  undertaken by the Institute  confirmed
the  presence  of  cyanide compounds in  all  kinds  of  gas
chamber  ruins,  even  in  the  basement  of  Block  11   in
Auschwitz,  where first, experimental gassing of victims  by
means  of  Zyklon  B had been carried out. The  analysis  of
control  samples,  taken from other places (especially  from
living quarters) yielded unequivocally negative results. For
the  sake  of  interpretation several laboratory experiments
have been carried out.

KEYWORDS: Gas chambers; Auschwitz; Cyanide compounds;
Revisionism.

Z Zagadnien Sqdowych, z. XXX, 1994, 17-27
Received 8 March 1994; accepted 30 May 1994

As  early as the first years after the end of World  War  II
single  publications began to appear in  which  the  authors
attempted  to "whitewash" the Hitlerite regime and  to  call
various signs of its cruelties into question. But it was not
till   the  fifties  that  the  trend  may  be  defined   as
"historical  revisionism" arose and started developing;  its
supporters  claim that the history of the World War  II  has
been  fabricated for the purposes of anti-German propaganda.
According to their statements there was no Holocaust, i.  e.
no mass extermination of Jews and in that case the Auschwitz-
Birkenau   Concentration  Camp  could  not  have   been   an
extermination  camp - it was only a "common"  forced  labour
camp and no gas chambers existed in it.

Historical  revisionism is now put  forward  by  members  of
various  nations,  who  already have  their  own  scientific
circles,  own publications and also use the mass  media  for
their  purposes.  Up  to  1988 the ,"revisionists''<1>  most
frequently  manipulated historical sources or simply  denied
the  facts.  Then,  after the appearance  of  the  so-called
Leuchter  Report (2), their tactics changed distinctly.  The
above-mentioned Report, worked out on the basis of  a  study
of  the ruins and remains of the crematoria and gas chambers
at  Auschwitz-Birkenau, has been considered by  them  to  be
specific  evidence  in  support  of  their  allegations  and
evidence  of  judicial  validity  at  that,  since  it   was
commissioned  by  the court of law in Toronto  (Canada).  F.
Leuchter,  living  in  Boston,  worked  on  the  design  and
construction  of gas chambers still in use  to  execute  the
death  penalty in some States of the USA. This is considered
to  give him authority to take the role of expert as regards
gas  chamber  issues. In this connection  Leuchter  came  to
Poland  on  25  February 1988 and stayed here  for  5  days,
visiting the camps at Auschwitz-Birkenau and at Majdanek. In
his report based on this inspection he states that "he found
no  evidence  that  any of the facilities that  are  usually
alleged  to  have  been gas chambers were actually  used  as
such". Moreover, he claims that these facilities "could  not
be  used  as gas chambers for killing people" (Item 4000  of
the Report).

Leuchter tried to confirm his conclusions with the  help  of
chemical  analysis.  For this purpose  he  took  samples  of
material fragments from the chamber ruins to subject them to
an analysis for hydrogen cyanide, the essential component of
Zyklon B, used - acc. to the testimony of witnesses - to gas
the victims. He took 30 samples altogether from all the five
structures  used  formerly as gas  chambers.  At  laboratory
analyses  performed in the USA the presence of cyanide  ions
at  concentrations of 1.1 to 7.9 mg/kg of material  examined
was  found in 14 samples. He also took one sample  from  the
delousing  building  at  Birkenau, which  he  treated  as  a
"control  sample", and in which cyanides were  found  to  be
present  at  a concentration of 1060 mg kg of material.  The
positive results of the analyses of samples from the  former
gas  chambers are explained by Leuchter by the fact that all
the  camp  facilities were subjected to  a  fumigation  with
hydrogen cyanide in connection with a typhoid epidemic which
really broke out in the camp in 1942.

A  later  investigation, carried out by  a  G.  Rudolf  (4),
confirmed  the high concentrations of cyanogen compounds  in
the facilities for clothes disinsectization. This may be  so
since, being undamaged, these facilities were not exposed to
the  action  of  weather  conditions,  especially  rainfall.
Moreover,  it is known that the duration of disinsectization
was  relatively  long,  about 24 hours  for  each  batch  of
clothes  (probably even longer), whereas the execution  with
Zyklon  B  in  the  gas  chambers  took,  according  to  the
statement  of the Auschwitz Camp Commander Rudolf  Hoess (7)
and  the  data presented by Sehn (6), only about 20 minutes.
It  should  also  be  emphasized that  the  ruins  of  these
chambers  have  been constantly exposed  to  the  action  of
precipitation and it can be estimated, on the basis  of  the
climatological records, that in these last 45  years  or  so
they have been rinsed rather thoroughly by a column of water
at least 35 m in height (!).

In  our  correspondence with the Management of the Auschwitz
Museum  in  1989, not knowing the Leuchter Report  then,  we
expressed  our  anxiety as to the chances  of  detection  of
cyanogen  compounds in the chamber ruins;  nevertheless,  we
offered  to carry out an appropriate study. At the beginning
of  1990  two workers of the Institute of Forensic  Research
arrived  on the premises of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Camp  and
took  samples for screening analysis: 10 samples of  plaster
>from   the  delousing chamber (Block No 3 at  Auschwitz),  10
samples  from gas chamber ruins and, in addition, 2  control
samples  from  the buildings which, as living quarters,  had
not  been  in contact with hydrogen cyanide. Out of  the  10
samples from the delousing chamber, seven contained cyanogen
compounds  at concentrations from 9 to  147 ug in conversion
to  potassium  cyanide  (which was  used  to  construct  the
calibration  curve) and 100 g of material.  As  far  as  the
ruins   are   concerned,  the  presence   of   cyanide   was
demonstrated   only  in  the  sample  from  the   ruins   of
Crematorium  Chamber  No  II at  Birkenau.  Neither  of  the
control samples contained cyanides.

When  the dispute on the Leuchter Report arose, we undertook
a  closer  study  of the problem, availing ourselves,  among
other  publications, of J. C. Pressac's  comprehensive  work
(5).  In consequence, we decided to start considerably  more
extensive and conscientiously planned reaserches.  To  carry
them  out,  the Management of the Auschwitz Museum appointed
their  competent workers, Dr F. Piper (custodian) and Mr  W.
Smrek  (engineer) to join the commission, in which they  co-
worked  with  the authors of the present paper, representing
the Institute of Forensic Research. Under this collaboration
the  Museum  workers  were providing us  on  the  spot  with
exhaustive  information  concerning  the  facilities  to  be
examined  and - as regards the ruins - a detailed topography
of the gas chambers we were concerned with. And so they made
it  possible for us to take proper samples for analysis.  We
tried to take samples - if at all possible - from the places
best  sheltered and least exposed to rainfall, includingalso
as  far  as possible - fragments of the upper parts  of  the
chambers (hydrogen cyanide is lighter than air) and also  of
the  concrete  floors, with which the gas from  the  spilled
Zyklon B came into contract at rather high concentrations.

Samples,  about  1-2  g in weight, were  taken  by  chipping
pieces   from   bricks  and  concrete  or   scrapping   off,
particularly  in  the case of plaster and also  mortar.  The
materials  taken  were secured in plastic containers  marked
with serial numbers. All these activities were recorded  and
documented with photographs. Work connected with  them  took
the  commission  two days. The laboratory  analysis  of  the
material   collected  was  conducted  -   to   ensure   full
objectivity  -  by another group of Institute workers.  They
started  with  preliminary work: samples were comminuted  by
grinding  them  by  hand in an agate mortar,  their  pH  was
determined at 6 to 7 in nearly all samples. Next the samples
were subjected to preliminary spectrophotometric analysis in
infrared  region,  using a Digilab FTS-16 spectrophotometer.
It  was  found that the bands of cyanide groups occurred  in
the  region  of  2000-2200 cm-1 in the spectra  of  a  dozen
samples  or  so.  However, the method did not  prove  to  be
sensitive   enough   and  was  given  up   in   quantitative
determinations.    It    was    determined,    using     the
spectrographical method, that the main elements  which  made
up  the samples were: calcium, silicon, magnesium, aluminium
and  iron.  Moreover,  titanium was found  present  in  many
samples. From among other metals in some samples there  were
also  barium,  zinc, sodium, manganese and  from  non-metals
boron.

The  undertaking of chemical analysis had to be preceded  by
careful  consideration.  The  revisionists  focussed   their
attention almost exclusively on Prussian blue, which  is  of
intense  dark-blue colour and characterized  by  exceptional
fastness. This dye occurs, especially in the form of stains,
on the outer bricks of the walls of the former bathdelousing
house  in  the  area of the Birkenau camp.  It  is  hard  to
imagine the chemical reactions and physicochemical processes
that  could  have led to the formation of Prussian  blue  in
that  place.  Brick, unlike other building  materials,  very
feebly absorbs hydrogen cyanide, it sometimes does not  even
absorb  it at all. Besides, iron occurring in it is  at  the
third  oxidation  state,  whereas  bivalent  iron  ions  are
indispensable  for  the formation of  the  [Fe(Cn)6]-4  ion,
which  is  the  precursor of Prussian  blue.  This  ion  is,
besides, sensitive to the sunlight.

J.  Bailer (1) writes in the collective work "Amoklauf gegen
die  Wirklichkeit" that the formation of  Prussian  blue  in
bricks   is  simply  improbable;  however,  he  takes   into
consideration  the  possibility  that  the  walls   of   the
delousing  room  were coated with this dye as  a  paint.  It
should be added that this blue coloration does not appear on
the walls of all the delousing rooms.

We  decided therefore to determine the cyanide ions using  a
method  that  does not induce the breakdown of the  composed
ferrum  cyanide complex (this is the blue under  discussion)
and  which  fact  we  had tested before  on  an  appropriate
standard  sample.  To  isolate cyanide  compounds  from  the
materials examined in the form of hydrogen cyanide  we  used
the  techniques  of  microdiffusion in  special  Conway-type
chambers.  The  sample under examination was placed  in  the
internal  part  of the chamber and next acidified  with  10%
sulfuric  acid  solution  and  allowed  to  remain  at  room
temperature (about 20oC) for 24 hrs. The separated  hydrogen
cyanide  underwent  a  quantitative absorption  by  the  lye
solution present in the outer part of the chamber. When  the
diffusion  was brought to an end, a sample of  lye  solution
was  taken and-the pyridine-pyrazolone reaction carried  out
by  Epstein's  method (3). The intensity of the  polymethene
dye  obtained  was  measured  spectrophotometrically  at   a
wavelength  equal  to  630  nm. The  calibration  curve  was
constructed  previously  and  standards  with  a  known  CN-
content  were  introduced into each series of determinations
to  check  the  curve and the course of determination.  Each
sample  of  materials examined was analysed three times.  If
the  result  obtained  was  positive,  it  was  verified  by
repeating the analysis. Having applied this method for  many
years,  we  have opportunities to find its high sensitivity,
specificity  and  precision. Under present circumstances  we
established  the lower limit of determinability  of  cyanide
ions at a level of 3-4 ,ug CN- in 1 kg of the sample.

The  results of analyses are presented in Tables I-IV.  They
unequivocally show that the cyanide compounds occur  in  all
the  facilities that, according to the source data, were  in
contact  with them. On the other hand, they do not occur  in
dwelling accomodations, which was shown by means of  control
samples.  The  concentrations of cyanide  compounds  in  the
samples  collected from one and the same  room  or  building
show  great  differences. This indicates that the conditions
that favour the formation of stable compounds as a result of
the  reaction of hydrogen cyanide with the components of the
walls,  occur locally. In this connection it takes  quite  a
large number of samples from a given facility to give  us  a
chance  to  come  upon  this sort of local  accumulation  of
cyanide compounds.

To complete this research on the cyanide compound content in
various  camp  facilities, we decided to carry  out  several
pilotage   experiments.  The  renovation  of  the  Institute
building,  just in progress, provided us with materials  for
this  investigation. We divided particular  constituents  of
these  materials (bricks, cement, mortar and  plaster)  into
several  3-4 gram pieces and placed them to glass  chambers,
in which we generated hydrogen cyanide by reacting potassium
cyanide  and sulphuric acid. We used high concentrations  of
this  gas  (about  2%) and wetted some of the  samples  with
water.  Fumigation took 48 hours at a temperature  of  about
20oC  (Table V). Another series of samples were treated with
hydrogen cyanide as well, but now in the presence of  carbon
dioxide. According to calculations, in the chambers in which
people  had been gassed the carbon dioxide content  produced
in  the breathing process of the victims was rather high and
in  relation to hydrogen cyanide may have been even as  high
as  10:1. In our experiment we applied these two gases  (CO2
and HCN) in the 5:1 ratio. Having been subjected to gassing,
the  samples were aired in the open air at a temperature  of
about  10-15oC.  The first analysis was conducted  48  hours
after the beginning of airing.

This  series  of  tests  allows the  statement  that  mortar
absorbs and/or binds hydrogen cyanide best and also that wet
materials show a noticeable tendency to accumulate  hydrogen
cyanide  whereas brick, especially old brick, poorly absorbs
and/or binds this compound.


TABLE I.  CONCENTRATION OF CYANIDE IONS IN CONTROL SAMPLES
TAKEN FROM        DWELLING ACCOMODATIONS, WHICH WERE
PROBABLY FUMIGATED WITH ZYKLON B  ONLY ONCE (IN CONNECTION
WITH TYPHOID EPIDEMIC IN 1942)

Site       Block No      Sample No       Concentration of
                                         CN- in ug/kg
------------------------------------------------------------
Auschwitz    3            9           	 0
                         10		 0
------------------------------------------------------------
             8           11		 0
                         12		 0
------------------------------------------------------------
Birkenau     3           60		 0
                         61		 0
                         62		 0
                         63		 0
------------------------------------------------------------

Note: In screening tests of 1990 two control samples also
produced 0 results.

TABLE II. CONCENTRATION OF CYANIDE IONS IN SAMPLES TAKEN IN 
          THE CELLARS IN  WHICH THE FIRST GASSINGS OF CAMP 
          PRISONERS TOOK PLACE ON NOVEMBER 3rd, 1941

Site       Place        Sample No       Concentration of
                 			CN- in ug/kg
------------------------------------------------------------
Auschwitz    cellars of Block 11
                        13 		28, 24, 24
                        14 		20, 16, 16
                        15 		0
------------------------------------------------------------

Note: The CN- content in a sample of diatomaceous earth - a
component of Zyklon B (material  from the Museum, sample No
24) - was 1360 ug/kg, 1320 ug/kg and 1400 ug/kg.

TABLE III. CONCENTRATIONS OF CYANIDE IONS IN SAMPLES TAKEN
           FROM THE CREMATORIUM CHAMBERS (OR THEIR RUINS)
  	   IN WHICH THE VICTIMS WERE GASSED.

A - Sample No;
B - Concentration of CN~ (ug/kg).

Crematorium I
------------------------------------------------------------
A	17	17	18	19	20	21	22
------------------------------------------------------------
B	28	76	0	0	288	0	80
	28	80	0	0	292	0	80
	26	80	0	0	288	0	80
------------------------------------------------------------
Crematorium II
------------------------------------------------------------
A	25	26	27	28	29	30	31
------------------------------------------------------------
B	640	28	0	8	20	168	296
	592	28	0	8	16	156	288
	620	28	0	8	16	168	292
------------------------------------------------------------
Crematorium III
------------------------------------------------------------
A 	32	33	34	35	36	37	38
------------------------------------------------------------
B	68	12	12	16	12	16	56
	68	8	12	12	8	16	52
	68	8	8	16	8	16	56
------------------------------------------------------------
Crematorium IV
------------------------------------------------------------
A	39	40	41	42 	43	-	-
------------------------------------------------------------
B	40	36	500	trace	16
	44	32	496	0	12
	44	36	496	0	12	
------------------------------------------------------------
Crematorium V
------------------------------------------------------------
A	46	47	48	49	50	51	52
------------------------------------------------------------
B	244	36	92	12	116	56	0
	248	28	96	12	120	60	0
	232	32	96	12	116	60	0
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------

Notes: 

Crematorium I at Auschwitz - building preserved but
reconstructed several times 
Crematorium II-V[*] at Birkenau - ruins. ONly the ceiling of the
chamber of Crematorium[*] II is in part fairly well preserved.

* Transcription Note: My copy of this document has two
corrections made, in ballpoint pen, concerning the crematorium
numbers. The first instance could have read "II-IV" in the
original, and the second could have read "III" on the
original, but the ink obscures the original text. knm.


TABLE IV. CONCENTRATIONS OF CYANIDE IONS IN SAMPLES COLLECTED
	IN THE FACILITIES FOR THE FUMIGATION OF PRISONERS'
	CLOTHES 
------------------------------------------------------------
Site		Place	Sample No	Concentration of
					CN~ in ug/kg
------------------------------------------------------------
Auschwitz	Block No.1 (1)	
			1		4,4,4
			2		0
			3, iron hook	0
			4, piece of	0
			wood from a door	
		Block No.3 (2)
			5		0
			6		900,840,880
			7		0
			8		16,12,16
			Two series of 
			determinations 	I.  70,30,74,142,422
			were made in 	II. 118,52,80,60,214
			block No 3 in 1990
------------------------------------------------------------
Birkenau	Bath-house
		Camp B1-A
			53  (3)		24, 20, 24
			53a (3)		224, 248, 228
			54  (3)		36, 28, 32	
			55  (3)		736, 740 ,640
			56  (4)		4, 0, 0
			57  (5)		840, 792, 840
			58  (5)		348, 324, 348
			59  (6)		28, 28, 28
------------------------------------------------------------
Notes:
(1)	Dwelling quarters next to cobbler workshop and
	disinfection chambers.
(2)	Disinfection facilities
(3)	Materials taken from the outer side of the building
	wall
(4)	Mortar taken from the outer side of the building wall
(5)	Plaster taken from dark-blue stains on the inner side
	of the building wall
(6)	Plaster from white walls inside the building

TABLE V. CONCENTRATIONS OF HYDROGEN CYANIDE AND/OR ITS 
         COMBINATIONS IN MATERIALS SAMPLED 48 HOURS AFTER 
         FUMIGATION

---------+-------------+--------------+--------------+-------------
      	 |Fresh plaster| Old mortar   | New brick    |  Old brick
---------+----+--------+-----+--------+-----+--------+-----+-------
Sort of  |dry | wetted | dry | wetted | dry | wetted | dry | wetted
material |    |        |     |        |     |        |     | 
---------+----+--------+-----+--------+-----+--------+-----+-------
Concentration |        |     |        |     |        |     |
of CN~ in     |        |     |        |     |        |     | 
ug/kg    | 24 |   480  | 176 |  2700  |  4  |   52   |  20 | 0
---------+----+--------+-----+--------+-----+--------+-----+-------

After  a  lapse of one month the concentration  of  hydrogen
cyanide  and  its  combinations in  the  materials  examined
decreased  on  the  average by 56% (from  28%  to  86%).  An
apparent  rise in the concentration occurred only in  single
samples. That is so because the samples used for examination
were not always the same. When they had been used up in  the
first run, they had to be replaced by new samples taken from
the  same bigger lumps of material. This supports the thesis
on the local binding of hydrogen cyanide.

The results obtained in the next series of tests, in which
the materials were subjected to gassing with a mixture of
HCN + CO2 are presented in Table VI.

TABLE VI. CONCENTRATIONS OF HYDROGEN CYANIDE AND ITS 
	COMBINATIONS IN MATERIALS SAMPLED AFTER FUMIGATION 
	WITH HCN+C02

---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
      	 |Fresh    |Old      |Fresh    |New      |Old
         |plaster  |mortar   |mortar   |brick    |brick  
---------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+
Sort of  |dry |wet | dry| wet| dry| wet| dry| wet| dry| wet 
material |    |ted |    | ted|    | ted|    | ted|    | ted 
---------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+
Concentration |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |     
of CN~ in     |    |1000|    |    |    |    |    |    |      
ug/kg    |5920|12800    | 244| 492| 388| 52 | 36 | 24 | 60   
---------+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+

In  this case the CN~ content in mortar (old and fresh)  and
in  new  brick  was for the most part lower  in  the  wetted
materials  than  in  the dry ones.  It  seems  that  here  a
tendency  is  revealed  towards the  competitive  action  of
carbon dioxide, which dissolves in water. In this series  of
tests fresh plaster showed an exceptionally high affinity to
hydrogen cyanide.

After  an  interval of a month the mean decrease of hydrogen
cyanide  content  in this material was 73%  and  so  it  was
markedly greater than in the run with hydrogen cyanide only.
In as many as four samples that loss ranged from 97% to 100%
and  then  airing  was nearly complete.  This  statement  is
significant   in   as  much  as  in  their   reasoning   the
revisionists   did  not  take  into  consideration   certain
circumstances, namely, the simultaneous action  of  cyanides
and  carbon dioxide on the chamber walls. In the air exhaled
by  man carbon dioxide constitutes 3.5% by volume. Breathing
for 1 minute, he takes in and next exhales 15-20 dm3 of air,
comprising  on  the average 950 cm3 CO2; consequently,  1000
people  breathe out about 950 dm3 of carbon dioxide. And  so
it  can  be  estimated that, if the victims  stayed  in  the
chamber for 5 minutes before they died, they exhaled 4.75 m3
of carbon dioxide during that period. This is at least about
1%  of the capacity, e. g. of the gas chamber of Crematorium
II  at  Birkenau, the capacity of which was  about  500  m3,
whereas the concentration of hydrogen cyanide virtually  did
not  exceed 0.1% by volume (death occurs soon at as low  HCN
concentrations   as   0.03%  by  volume).   Therefore,   the
conditions  for the preservation of HCN in the gas  chambers
were not better than in the delousing chambers, despite what
the   revisionists  claim.  Besides,  as  has  already  been
mentioned, the chamber ruins have been thoroughly washed  by
rainfall.

The  following experiment illustrated to what  extent  water
elutes   cyanide   ions.  Two  0.5-gram   plaster   samples,
previously  subjected to a fumigation with hydrogen  cyanide
(after  the determination of cyanide combinations  in  them)
were  placed on filter paper in glass funnels and either  of
them  was  flushed  with 1 l of clean,  deionized  distilled
water. The results of the test are presented in Table VII.

TABLE VII. RESULTS OF EXAMINATION CONCERNING THE EFFECT OF
WATER UPON THE CONCENTRATION OF CYANIDE IONS IN PLASTER

----------------------------------------------------------------
Sample  Initial concentration Concentration after 
                              flushing with water
        (CN~ in ug/kg)        (CN~ in ug/kg)    Loss, in %
----------------------------------------------------------------
 I      160                   28                82.5
II      1200                  112               90.7 
----------------------------------------------------------------

Consequently, water elutes cyanide compounds in considerable
measure.  The fact that they have survived so  long  in  the
chamber  ruins is probably due to the possible formation  of
cyanide combinations in the walls of those chambers  at  the
time  of  their utilization from about mid-1943 to the  last
weeks of 1944 (except for Crematorium IV, which was blown up
earlier).  The  significance of rainfall in the  process  of
elution  of  these  combinations out of the  ruin  walls  is
exemplified by Crematorium II in the Birkenau camp, where we
have  found  the  highest (mean) eoncentrations  of  cyanide
compounds, because many fragments of the gas chamber were to
a great degree protected from precipitation.

Final Remarks

The  present study shows that in spite of the passage  of  a
considerable period of time (over 45 years) in the walls  of
the  facilities  which  once were in contact  with  hydrogen
cyanide  the vestigial amounts of the combinations  of  this
constituent  of Zyklon B have been preserved. This  is  also
true  of  the ruins of the former gas chambers. The  cyanide
compounds  occur in the building materials only locally,  in
the  places  where the conditions arose for their  formation
and persistence for such a long time.

In  his  reasoning  Leuchter (2) claims that  the  vestigial
amounts  of  cyanide combinations detected  by  him  in  the
materials  from  the chamber ruins are residues  left  after
fumigations  carried out in the Camp "once,  long  ago"(Item
14.004  of  the  Report). This is refuted  by  the  negative
results  of  the  examination of the  control  samples  from
living quarters, which are said to have been subjected to  a
single  gassing,  and  the  fact  that  in  the  period   of
fumigation of the Camp in connection with a typhoid epidemic
in  mid-1942 there were still no crematoria in the  Birkenau
Camp. The first crematorium (Crematorium II) was put to  use
as  late  as  15  March 1943 and the others  several  months
later.

Footnotes:

1. The terms "historical revisionism" and "revisionists" in
the sense used there have been introduced into the
literature of the field under discussion.


References

1. Amoklauf gegen die Wirklichkeit. Praca zbiorowa (B. Gallanda, 
J. Bailer, F. Freund, T. Geisler, W. Lasek, N. Neugebauer, 
G. Spenn, W. Wegner). Bundesministerium fuer Unterricht und 
Kultur Wien 1991.

2. Der erste Leuchter Report, Toronto 1988, Samisdat
Publishers Ltd., Toronto 1988.

3. Epstein J., Estimation of Microquantities of
Cyanide, Analytical Chemistry 1947, Vol. 19, p. 272.

4. Gauss  E., Vorlesungen ueber Zeitgeschichte, Grabert
Vlg. Tuebingen 1993.

5. Pressac J. C., Auschwitz: Technique and Operation
of the Gas Chambers, B. Klarsfield Foundation, New York
1989.

6. Sehn J., Ob6z Koncentracyjny Oswiecim-Brzezinka.
Wydawnictwo Prawnicze, Warszawa 1960.

7. Wspomnienia Rudolf . Hoessa, komendanta obozu
oswiecimskiego. G16wna Komisja Badania Zbrodni Hitlerowskich
w Polsce. Wydawnistwo Prawnicze, Warszawa 1956.

The study was performed and funded by the Committee for
Scientific Research under the scheme of Research Project 
No 2 P 30 3088 04. Leader of the Project Prof. Jan Markiewicz.


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green	Department of Chemistry, Stanford CA
94303-5080
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU  http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or

prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, 
or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and
to 
petition the government for a redress of grievances.




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 28 10:09:47 PDT 1996
Article: 33347 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay says 'F you alt.rev. readers'
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	This analytical critique on the report by the Polish
government on cyanide traces found at Auschwitz today and presented to
the group from the Nizkor files by Richard Green includes allegations
that the report has been tampered with. It cites names and passages.
              
Originally posted under "Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today". In the
future it will be condensed a bit more and include additional
commentary on the worthless nature of the report as being able to show
there was a process of mass extermination by gassing with cyanide. The
new information is at the end in brackets.
	                  ==================

                   "Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today".

	Seems there are two main reports existing that are founded on
studies of samples taken from the ruins of Auschwitz in order to
confirm or deny mass extermination had taken place at the camp by way
of gassing.
	One is the "Leuchter Report" which revisionists use to deny
this aspect of the Holocaust story, and the other is one done by the
Polish government to show that the gassing procedure took place.
	Personally I have never seen the full Leuchter Report, only
bits here and there. Recently the Polish study was posted on the
alt.revisionism group by Richard Green, evidentally taken from the
Nizkor archives, (Nizkor>ftp>pub>orgs>polish>institute for forensic
..)
	It's title appears to be (abrev.) "THE STUDY OF THE CYANIDE
CONTENTS ... GAS CHAMBERS ... AUSCHWITZ AND BIRKENAU".

	It starts off with, and eventually commits about 15% of it's
copy, to making comment on revisionism and Leuchter. Personally I get
the notion this report was initiated soley to deny the Leuchter Report
since it spends so much time with the subjects in it's introductory
and conclusion. In other words, it was motivated on subjective
grounds. I don't know the full history of the Leuchter Report. As far
as I can recall it was initiated on behalf on revisionism.

	I do recall that Leuchter had to sneak around to collect
samples not having the co-operation of the Polish government and the
report at hand was by investigators having full access to whatever
they wanted. In fact some of the critical parts of Birkenau are off
limits to any out side inspection. On the one hand you have to have a
certain respect for the Polish recognition of the gross exaggeration
of the Auschwitz death toll, and on the other I carry a certain
begrudgment for their not co-operating with independant studies for
confirmation of Holocaust claims.
	We might get the idea that the comments on revisionists was
included independantly by other party(s), and the Polish researchers
required the party(s) to include a sort of disclaimer which appears at
the end: 

"Footnotes:
1. The terms "historical revisionism" and "revisionists" in
the sense used there have been introduced into the
literature of the field under discussion." 
     "Introduced" - "into the literature" to mean, not by the primary
authors of the report?
 
	Anyway, the report starts off after the revisionist comments
with a paragraph on why we might expect to find low concentrations in
other buildings than the real gas (defumigation) chambers. One reason
is because the delousing process took 24 hours and "probably even
longer" as opposed to the gassing of human beings that took only 20
minutes, "according to Rudolph Ho'ss".
	This is very interesting in that we can recognize that the
agent of mass extermination Zyklon B was designed for slow release in
order to maintain a level of suspension in the air to work over the
extended period of time, showing it to have been a poor choice for
mass extermination that would take only 20 minutes, by this account,
others are from 5 to 10 minutes.
	The paragraph ends up explaining that the ruins have been
exposed to climatic events for 45 years which would add up to a
accumulated rainfall of over 100 feet. They did not mention or think
of any other factors involved, such as Holocasut claims that the
chambers were washed out after each gassing, or the agents of freezing
and thawing, or the process of percipitating substances from within
the materials under investigation, like niter deposits, that would
tend to push, displace, combine or possess natural cyanide compounds.
We also have to recognize the 100 feet of water would include
chemicals in solution (acid rain) that would further complicate any
HCN's ability to persevere.
	The report states in the next paragraph, "In our
correspondance with the Management ... in 1989, not knowing the
Leuchter Report then, we expressed ..." This I take it is to belay any
thoughts their tests were induced by the Leuchter Report and thus were
of a purely objective inquiry for the sake of historical accuracy. I
don't believe it. I would say they were goaded into it by parties
eager to maintain the story. After all, it was forty five years later
and after the Leuchter Report.      
	The report then continues in the same paragraph to give a
brief rundown on the previous investigation which began in early 1990.

In "1990 ...  two workers of the Institute of Forensic Research
arrived  on the premises of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Camp  and
took  samples for screening analysis: 10 samples of  plaster
>from   the  delousing chamber (Block No 3 at  Auschwitz),  10
samples  from gas chamber ruins and, in addition, 2  control
samples  from  the buildings which, as living quarters,  had
not  been  in contact with hydrogen cyanide. Out of  the  10
samples from the delousing chamber, seven contained cyanogen
compounds  at concentrations from 9 to  147 ug in conversion
to  potassium  cyanide  (which was  used  to  construct  the
calibration  curve) and 100 g of material.  As  far  as  the
ruins   are   concerned,  the  presence   of   cyanide   was
demonstrated   only  in  the  sample  from  the   ruins   of
Crematorium  Chamber  No  II at  Birkenau.  Neither  of  the
control samples contained cyanides." 

	They found 7 out of the 10 samples taken from the delousing
chambers to have had traces of cyanide. There seems to be certain
vagueness here, but we'll assume it means they found 9 to 147 micro
grams from 100 grams (3.7 oz.) of material specimen. Giving the
Holocaust story the benefit of the two numbers we can us the 147 micro
grams. This would be only .00018 of a 1 gram.  Not a very big ratio
difference. Especially coming from a delousing chamber, what with it
being subjected to round the clock use with Zyklon B.
	As to what was found at alleged gas chambers it says
"presence" of cyanide was found "only in the sample taken from the
ruins of Crematorium Chamber No. II ..." It doesn't refer to any other
gas chamber by title, but we assume some were taken from others. Nor
does it cite any quantitative figures. Since the presence of cyanide
was only .00018 from the delousing chamber, we can assume the amount
>from  Crema II was way, way less.
	Evidentally this investigation wasn't satifactory enough for
someone, and not sufficient enough to deny the already existing
Leuchter Report because - "When  the dispute on the Leuchter Report
arose, we undertook a closer study of the problem, ..."
	So we have the statement that the ensuing investigation was
initiated for the sole purpose of refuting the Leuchter Report. We are
then given a pitch on the exaustive nature of the project and after
naming some participants the report states:
	"Under this collaboration
the  Museum  workers  were providing us  on  the  spot  with
exhaustive  information  concerning  the  facilities  to  be
examined  and - as regards the ruins - a detailed topography
of the gas chambers we were concerned with. And so they made
it  possible for us to take proper samples for analysis.  We
tried to take samples - if at all possible - from the places
best sheltered and least exposed to rainfall, including also
as  far  as possible - fragments of the upper parts  of  the
chambers (hydrogen cyanide is lighter than air) and also  of
the  concrete  floors, with which the gas from  the  spilled
Zyklon B came into contact at rather high concentrations."

	The report makes referrence to a survey for taking samples,
"as regards the ruins - a detailed topography of the gas chambers we
were concerned with." As to what "topography" they are talking about,
no detail is given to what is still existing. The only photograph I've
seen of a alleged gas chamber is a collapsed and caved in structure
identified as Crema II. What remains of the other Birkenau III, IV and
V does not seem to be available for some reason. "Topography"? What
might be left of IV or V say? They were said to have been built above
ground. Are there just some footings left? A few remnants of walls?
What could be left that they could take samples from if even the
Holocaust promotion network doesn't publish any?

	As to Crema III, another underground facility, where are the
photographs if anything was still extant in 1990?  Especially if there
was enough to take samples from. So far we have to recognize that the
report alleges that ruins of some kind yet exist of all four Crema
chambers and that only one photograph of Crema II is given in the
Holocaust promotion circuit.
	The ensuing paragraph in the report tells us about what
material samples were made of, brick, concrete, plastar and mortar,
and that they took chunks or scrappings, put in plastic bags and
numbered. the whole thing was documented, "All these activities were
recorded  and documented with photographs". These photographs
including Cremas III, IV and V we should presume. These photographs
are not, for some reason, on the circuit as Holocaust evidence. In
fact Crema II is the star subject mentioned in the report. One
"Notes:" states:

"Crematorium I at Auschwitz - building preserved but
reconstructed several times 
Crematorium II-V[*] at Birkenau - ruins. Only the ceiling of the
chamber of Crematorium[*] II is in part fairly well preserved."

 "Fairly well preserved" means rubble, including a caved in and
fragmented concrete slab, this being the one and only photograph of
extant ruins of a gas chamber in the Holocaust story's promotion
package.

	Evidentally they must have had some suspicion that someone
might be suspicious of the honesty of the investigation and they put
our minds at ease by telling us "The laboratory  analysis  of  the
material   collected  was  conducted  -   to ensure full
objectivity  -  by another group of Institute workers." Would that be
anything like "putting the cat in charge of the mouse"?

	After telling us about grinding up the specimens they follow
with:                                                       
"Next the samples were subjected to preliminary spectrophotometric
analysis in the infrared  region,  using a Digilab
FTS-16spectrophotometer.
It  was  found that the bands of cyanide groups occurred  in the
region  of  2000-2200 cm-1 in the spectra  of  a  dozen
samples  or  so.  However, the method did not  prove  to  be
sensitive enough and was given up in quantitative
determinations.  It  was determined, using the
spectrographical method, that the main elements  which  made
up  the samples were: calcium, silicon, magnesium, aluminium
and  iron.  Moreover,  titanium was found  present  in  many
samples. From among other metals in some samples there  were
also  barium,  zinc, sodium, manganese and  from  non-metals
boron."
	I personally never heard of spectroscopic studies being used
to determine quantity values, though we may note that any band showing
up under spectroscopic analysis could show up as more intense than
other samples, but it's hard to imagine it being used to give fine
quantitative readings. We might assume the "preliminary" work was done
to see if there were any traces of HCN at all. The report tells us
they found among other none related elements, "bands of cyanide groups
... in the region of 2000-2200 cm-1" without further comment. No
matter, the test were eliminated from consideration anyway.

	Using the "revisionist" word one paragraph states the Leuchter
test were focused on Prussian blue stains which "occurs, especially in
the form of stains, on the outer bricks" of the delousing chambers,
but, "Brick, unlike other building materials, very feebly absorbs
hydrogen cyanide ..." 
	The writer of the paragraph cites another earlier "collective
work" which states the "formation of Prussian blue is simply
improbable" and that the author "takes into consideration (theorized)
that the walls of the delousing chamber were coated with the dye as a
paint". No further explaination is given as to why this might have
been. The report adds "It should be added that this blue coloration
does not appear on the walls of all delousing chambers", without
further comment.
	[*At times I'm not sure who is responsible for passages in the
report. Whenever the revisionist word pops up I think back to the
disclaimer, ["The terms '"historical revisionism"' and
'"revisionists"' in the sense used there have been introduced into the
literature of the field under discussion"] and I take note of any
associated words and sentences.
	Maybe it could be shown that brick does not "absorb" cyanide
compounds but the main term used is "binding". Certainly if someone
suggests the walls were painted with the Prussian Blue, and Prussian
blue does come in a paint format, they would have to admit it has some
binding agency. A theory is far more substantial when it is supported
by further theory or fact. In this case it is not enough someone
theorizes on the paint job without posing a reason why they would have
done it, just in some places. 
	Who knows. Maybe it was localized near exaust fans in the
fumigation facilities, whereby the exausted material would be swirling
in exceleration at the point of exit, and atom by atom built up on the
wall like smoke sticking to, and blackening the tops of smoke stakes.
Brick often can come in the form of blackened red, reeking of iron to
the knowing eye. Prussian Blue is Fe4[FeCN]-9. Meaning it is attached
to iron atom(s). Whatever "stage of oxidation" iron atoms are in
today's Auschwitz test samples does not tell what stage any iron
content of the brick was when it was made.  

	This report goes into some detail about the various kinds of
material tested and whether or not they are wet, dry, old or new
without committing themselves to definitive conclusions.

	A quick note for future referrence is that the report
constantly refers to cyanide "compounds" and that radically different
readings can come from samples collected from the same building, the
same room and even "one chunk".

	There is plenty of confusion in this report, and it
considerably lacks specifics and a certain continuity in that it jumps
around.

	The report gives a primer in the set up of the research. 

"To complete this research on the cyanide compound content in
various  camp  facilities, we decided to carry  out  several
pilotage   experiments.  The  renovation  of  the  Institute
building,  just in progress, provided us with materials  for
this  investigation. We divided particular  constituents  of
these  materials (bricks, cement, mortar and  plaster)  into
several  3-4 gram pieces and placed them to glass  chambers,
in which we generated hydrogen cyanide by reacting potassium
cyanide  and sulphuric acid. We used high concentrations  of
this  gas  (about  2%) and wetted some of the  samples  with
water.  Fumigation took 48 hours at a temperature  of  about
20oC  (Table V). Another series of samples were treated with
hydrogen cyanide as well, but now in the presence of  carbon
dioxide. According to calculations, in the chambers in which
people  had been gassed the carbon dioxide content  produced
in  the breathing process of the victims was rather high and
in  relation to hydrogen cyanide may have been even as  high
as  10:1. In our experiment we applied these two gases  (CO2
and HCN) in the 5:1 ratio. Having been subjected to gassing,
the  samples were aired in the open air at a temperature  of
about  10-15oC.  The first analysis was conducted  48  hours
after the beginning of airing."

	This report leaves off flatly at the end without giving us the
results of the CO2/HCN combo, and begins a new topic about wet and dry
comparisons.
	 
	
	The wet/dry connection. 

"This  series  of  tests  allows the  statement  that  mortar
absorbs and/or binds hydrogen cyanide best and also that wet
materials show a noticeable tendency to accumulate  hydrogen
cyanide  whereas brick, especially old brick, poorly absorbs
and/or binds this compound."

	No relevance is ever stated. It is immediately followed by
table I which list the amount of "Cyanide ions" found in buildings
said to have been gassed only once, the traces being zero.

	This followed by Table II, which involves test done to samples
taken from Block 11, the place where the first gassings were said to
have taken place. They showed one sample had 28,24,24 weight parts per
million, another had 20,16,16, and a third had 0.

	
	TABLE III. CONCENTRATIONS OF CYANIDE IONS IN SAMPLES TAKEN
           FROM THE CREMATORIUM CHAMBERS (OR THEIR RUINS)
  	   IN WHICH THE VICTIMS WERE GASSED.

	What they mean by the plualization "CHAMBERS" we can only
wonder, and what constitutes "RUINS" we have only the photo of Crema
II.
	Anyway, the results shown range from 0 to 288 in Crema I, 0 to
640 for Crema II, 8 to 68 for Crema III, 0 to 500 for Crema IV and 12
to 248 for Crema V.

	We are then given a professional "Transcription Note" by Ken
McVay: "My copy of this document has two
corrections made, in ballpoint pen, concerning the crematorium
numbers. The first instance could have read "II-IV" in the
original, and the second could have read "III" on the
original, but the ink obscures the original text. knm."

	So we are not sure what we are talking about.
	

	The sporadic and localized nature of any cyanide
concentrations referred to will be covered later in the critique. 

 	Table IV gives us the results of test for "Cyanide ions" in
facilities for fumigation. For one of the two buildings tested the
results were 0 to 4, and for the other 0 to 900. We are informed:

                        "Two series of 
			determinations 	I.  70,30,74,142,422
			were made in 	II. 118,52,80,60,214
			block No 3 in 1990."

	Which is, for the three later tests from the same place, 0 to
900, 30 to 422 and 52 to 214. No further comment is given on the
radically different readings, or on the nature of the low readings
where we would expect the highest. 

	Table IV also includes numbers on the "bath-house" with
readings from 0 to 740 in samples taken from the outside and 28 to 840
on the inside. The bathhouse is not included in the Holocaust package
as a extermination facility. Any build up of Prussian blue could have
come from the same dynamics that caused it at the delousing chambers. 

	Table V gives us the results of tests done to samples, wet,
dry, new and old ranging from 0 in old brick to 2700 in wetted old
mortar 24 hours after being exposed to HCN.

	The report concludes on this test:
"After a month the concentration  of  hydrogen
cyanide  and  its  combinations in  the  materials  examined
decreased  on  the  average by 56% (from  28%  to  86%).  An
apparent  rise in the concentration occurred only in  single
samples. That is so because the samples used for examination
were not always the same. When they had been used up in  the
first run, they had to be replaced by new samples taken from
the  same bigger lumps of material. This supports the thesis
on the local binding of hydrogen cyanide."
	The conclusion does not give us any specifics about the
concentration levels of HCN and "its combinations". Nor does it tell
us which samples decreased by 28% or 86%. But we can take note of the
fact that righteous percentages decreased after just on month when
left on its own, in the absence of the 100 feet of acid rain and other
factors. We can also see that concentration readings vary radically
within one chunk.
	The conclusion does not summarize any relevance of the wet dry
tests and does not expand on its last sentence, "This supports the
thesis on the local binding of hydrogen cyanide". 
	        
	Nearing the end we return to the subject of the HCN/CO2
connection, getting Table VI, which is the results of testing for HCN
after samples, wet and dry, had been exposed to HCN and CO2, as to
conditions for its binding when mixed with the substance of human
exhale.

	The results showed from 24 in old dry brick, to 12800 in fresh
plaster and that decreased after a month to a mean 73%, 17% faster
than the rate for HCN without CO2. The text also includes that "in as
many as four samples the loss was 97% to 100%".

	The report concludes on these wet/dry experiments:
"In this case the CN~ content on mortar (old and fresh) and new brick
was for the most part lower in the wetted materials than in the dry
one. It seems that here a tendeny is revealed towards the competitive
action of carbon dioxide, which dissolves in water. In this series of
tests fresh plaster showed an exceptionally high affinity to hydrogen
cyanide."
	
	The following paragraph which strives to make a relevant
conclusion out of the test with HCN and CO2 on wet and dry samples of
various building materials includes the "revisionist" word.
	
"After  an  interval of a month the mean decrease of hydrogen
cyanide  content  in this material was 73%  and  so  it  was
markedly greater than in the run with hydrogen cyanide only.
In as many as four samples that loss ranged from 97% to 100%
and  then  airing  was nearly complete.  This  statement  is
significant   in   as  much  as  in  their   reasoning   the
revisionists   did  not  take  into  consideration   certain
circumstances, namely, the simultaneous action  of  cyanides
and  carbon dioxide on the chamber walls. In the air exhaled
by  man carbon dioxide constitutes 3.5% by volume. Breathing
for 1 minute, he takes in and next exhales 15-20 dm3 of air,
comprising  on  the average 950 cm3 CO2; consequently,  1000
people  breathe out about 950 dm3 of carbon dioxide. And  so
it  can  be  estimated that, if the victims  stayed  in  the
chamber for 5 minutes before they died, they exhaled 4.75 m3
of carbon dioxide during that period. This is at least about
1%  of the capacity, e. g. of the gas chamber of Crematorium
II  at  Birkenau, the capacity of which was  about  500  m3,
whereas the concentration of hydrogen cyanide virtually  did
not  exceed 0.1% by volume (death occurs soon at as low  HCN
concentrations   as   0.03%  by  volume).   Therefore,   the
conditions  for the preservation of HCN in the gas  chambers
were not better than in the delousing chambers, despite what
the   revisionists  claim.  Besides,  as  has  already  been
mentioned, the chamber ruins have been thoroughly washed  by
rainfall."
	This statement with it's lengthy un-necessary expansion on CO2
exhale was probably written by Ken McVay of Nizkor.

	Regardless, the most the passage concludes on is that
revisionists are mistaken to think any gas chambers are good places to
hold a record of bygone gassings.

	The last test reported has its results listed in Table VII.
Plaster samples were exposed to HCN and flushed with distilled water.
The amount said to have been present before the flushing in one test
was 160 micrograms per kilogram with only 28 left over after flushing,
showing a 72% loss. The other test gave 1200 before flushing with
distilled water and 112 after, a 90.7% loss. No time/quantity values
are given as to the flushing. Should we take into consideration the
minerals and acids and other compounds and elements in rain water
which might have high valence attraction to CN, we could theorize that
the lose would be more like 100%. Conducting the experiment with
distilled water was not reproducing the conditions the facilities
would have been subjected to.

	The report winds up with;

"Final Remarks"

"The  present study shows that in spite of the passage  of  a
considerable period of time (over 45 years) in the walls  of
the  facilities  which  once were in contact  with  hydrogen
cyanide  the vestigial amounts of the combinations  of  this
constituent  of Zyklon B have been preserved. This  is  also
true  of  the ruins of the former gas chambers. The  cyanide
compounds  occur in the building materials only locally,  in
the  places  where the conditions arose for their  formation
and persistence for such a long time."
	
	Not knowing exactly where the words in the report are by the
real authors and those that were "introduced", we can only consider
the difference in style and subject. The second paragraph under "Final
Remarks" reads: 

"In  his  reasoning  Leuchter (2) claims that  the  vestigial
amounts  of  cyanide combinations detected  by  him  in  the
materials  from  the chamber ruins are residues  left  after
fumigations  carried out in the Camp "once,  long  ago"(Item
14.004  of  the  Report). This is refuted  by  the  negative
results  of  the  examination of the  control  samples  from
living quarters, which are said to have been subjected to  a
single  gassing,  and  the  fact  that  in  the  period   of
fumigation of the Camp in connection with a typhoid epidemic
in  mid-1942 there were still no crematoria in the  Birkenau
Camp. The first crematorium (Crematorium II) was put to  use
as  late  as  15  March 1943 and the others  several  months
later."

                         ___________

	As we can see from the tests, the agent HCN does not fair well
under time and weather. Even after a limited flushing with distilled
water and a months time, 100% of the agent can disappear.
	So how do we explain the finding of any HCN after all these
years and 100 feet of acid rain? We don't. No HCN was found, as is
clear from the report. Only cyanide "compounds", "groups" or "ions"
were detected.
	Cyanide compounds are found naturally. Carbon and Nitrogen are
relatively common elements that have a wide range of easy combinant
capablities with other elements and each other. Cyanide compounds can
be found under a list of organic molecules. They can be organic
constituants of life, and are in fact even produced by organic
processes, such as fair amounts are found in cherry pits.
	Nitrogen and Carbon are readily found in soils. In fact
Nitrogen is one of the major proportions of earth's air. Carbon and
Nitrogen can combine with each other quite easily in geological,
natural formats. CN, cyanide, can attach to a whole array of other
elements and molecules and thus come under the heading "cyanide
compound" or "group" with a full array of variations.
	Chemical equations of various cyanide compounds are extensive
and some show that when tests are done to detect Cyanides starting off
with chemicals in a water solution the other side of the equation
shows that even the H2O has been broken down and its components H and
O reincorporated into something else.  	
	Most likely whatever was found during these tests was probably
CN compounds created within a short time from the time the samples
were taken. New ones precipitate from the material like the white
niter or ammonium nitrate that we can see under bridges and tunnels,
or in caves, only to wash away and be replaced.

	The report does not make any conclusions on why such radically
different results can be arrived at from the same room or piece of
material, when we can suggest this is analogous to naturally occuring
precipitous action that tend to congregate in patches, having found
localized conditions for easy percipitation from within the interior
of the structures material.
	The report does not make a stab at explaining why such low
traces were found in fumigation chambers, in some cases being zero,
when we would expect to find high levels. Judging by photographs of
still extent fumigation chambers, the interiors of these facilities
have been protected from weather conditions.
	On the other hand, the highest amounts of cyanide compounds
found, outside of that detected in the Prussian blue stains in the
fumigation chambers and the bathhouse, are those found in Crema I and
II, and the amounts said to have been found in the cellar of "block
11", all underground structures built of concrete, prone to dampness
and thus prime places for the dynamics of precipitous deposit to
occur.

	As far as the Leuchter Report or the Polish report are
concerned, including the paragraphs with the "revisionist" word, none
of it is sufficient to deny or confirm any part of the Holocaust
story.


[According to -The Dictionary of Chemical Compounds-, under
"hydrocyanic acid" aka "hydrogen cyanide" aka "HCN", to:

"Derivation: (a) By catalytically reacting ammonia and air with
methane or natural gas. (b) By recovery from coke oven gases. (c) From
bituminus coal and ammonia at 1250 degrees".]
 
	This means, that even by eliminating any points given above,
any cyanide traces found at Auschwitz today could have come from the
fall out from any coke burning facilities in the area, of which there
were many. For heat, for incineration of refuse and the cremation of
bodies of those who really did die from any other causes.
 	There is no way that it could be shown that any traces that
were found, miniscule as they were, originated from any gassing
chamber.
                                              Tom Moran	 
	




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Apr 28 10:09:48 PDT 1996
Article: 33351 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 13:19:26 GMT
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	"Anti-Semitism" is a term that has been thrown around so much
that it musters up smirks if it should arise in conversation. Seems
everyone is aware of the wide and rampant use of the term. But what
does it mean? On the surface it would appear it means 'anti-Jewish'. 
	The empirical method would require us to first define the
words used.	
	"Semite" is a racial referrence. Like Caucasian, Oriental,
Negro or Amerind. The definition of "Semite", Random House Dictionary,
1."a member of any of the various ancient and modern peoples
originating in SW Asia, among whom are the Hebrews and the Arabs. 2.
"a Jew". 3. "a member of any of the peoples supposedly descended from
Shem".
        The word for the most part has been further associated to the
point of exclusiveness with Jew. "Jew", Random House Dictionary, 1. "a
person whose religion is Judaism".
	
	Thus we might get the idea that "anti-Semitism" means against
the racial and/or religious nature of a Jew.
	In the end run, all the definitions that are connected to the
words "Semite" and "Jew" indicates that - Judaism is a religion with a
genetic foundation.
	
	So where does the "anti" part fit in?
	Going by a review of the many examples of the charge it seems
that it applies to anyone who questions any Jewish activity, such as
"Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism".	
	This assertion would indicate that Zionism is a "Semitic" and
a Judaic process all at once and therefore by applying the definitons
it is obvious that Zionism is in itself a racist movement.
	Now what is wrong with being anti-racist?

	The poetic thing about most of the charges that are made is
one can say a negative about Jewish activity, have it be true, and
still incite the charge of "anti-Semitism".
	Can a true statement be anti-Semitic? Seems so. It would
follow, that if one is charged with anti-Semitism for saying a true
statement, the charger admits the true statement is true and negative.
Anti-Semitism is a weapon by which the Jews readily use to silence any
adversary in lieu of direct empirical response.
	
	The antithesis of the term "Semite" is "Goyim".
Goyim is a negative term. The antithesis of "goyem" is "kike".	 	
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 30 23:40:59 PDT 1996
Article: 33675 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor, "Holocaust Educational Resource"
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 15:05:58 GMT
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	Just a few words to the readers from Ken McVay, webmaster of
Nizkor.

	McVay has been charged with tampering with a report from the
Polish government on existing cyanide traces found at Auschwitz. The
initial report was posted from Nizkor files by Richard Green.
	Moran posted a analytical critique under "Cyanide Traces at
Auschwitz Today". In addition to thoroughly showing that the research
was completely useless, Moran took note of a foot note at the end;

"Footnotes:

1. The terms "historical revisionism" and "revisionists" in
the sense used there have been introduced into the
literature of the field under discussion."

	Moran then noticed that considerable extended comment was also
associated within the paragraphs with the above words, and even some
passages that didn't include the foot noted words and attributed them
to McVay. They were indentified by Moran within the critique. 

	Moran then posted "McVay folds to Moran's royal flush".

	"Mr. Green posted a Nizkor version of a report by the Poles on
existing cyanide traces at Auschwitz. Moran posted a critique analysis
to show that it was useless under "Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today".
Moran recognized there were passeges interjected in the report and
attributed them to McVay. Moran mentioned McVay by name a number of
times.
	Eventually Mr.Green and Professor Keren responded with some
rather emotional argument, but McVay never shows up.
	McVay didn't even come back and try to bluff his way out with
his usual pair of deuces."

	After considerable exchange between others, McVay shows up
with;

	"Darn, I did so want it to be a surprise, Mr. Steintrov. By
the way, are we still on for the LG photo tour next week? (Or should 
we just skip the entertainment, find a good pub, and get right to 
the Guiness?)
(Spoke to some local folks today who will be calling you
regarding that Guiness, and some other stuff. 'tis cool.)"

	Moran recognizing that when someone post something out here it
is directed to the reader, any reader in general, posted;

	"McVay says, F you alt.rev readers" which included the initial
posting of "McVay folds ..." with the addition of;
	"The recap: The Polish report taken from Nizkor files is laced
with McVay's interjection without notes stating when and where and to
what extent. This is the charge. After a weeks goading to get McVay to
come out and set the record straight he shows up with:

	McVay came out with his best in response to "McVay says, F you
...";

	"The Moran has since charged that the document in question is
the Crakow Institute's Post-Leuchter report... this should be
delightfully entertaining, and more than a tad interesting,
since I, unlike Mr. Moran, actually have the hard copy here...	
	Go ahead, Moran, make my day. Put your money where your mouth
is, Bucky." 

-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational
Resource 


	Moran then responded; "Why don't you just post whatever "hard
copy" you say you have above and we can go from there."

	McVay returned with; "Please, John. Serano or jalapeno, at
least. Leave the wimpy stuff for the giwerundeans, ok?
Sorry you can't make it to Texas - they know how to treat
peppers there :-)"
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational
Resource

	Continuing his banter with other upper echalon Holocaust
Defense League members, McVay posted; "Can't speak for John, but ifn
y'all'll hold that jar, I'll come down and pick it up personally, real
soon now.
	I remember my sister's cat."
-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational
Resource
 
	Then in a later post, McVay says;

	"Yep. Looks like the report to me. :)
Of course, so did the list of URLs Mr. McCarthy posted, but
Mr. Moran, his rigii being frozen and all, didn't know
that....
	I also looked for Mr. Moran's evidence of tampering on my
part.
	Yep. Looks like there wasn't any, as usual."

The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational
Resource


	Now we can see what McVay will publically post as to the, 
"Foot note; 
1. The terms "historical revisionism" and "revisionists" in
the sense used there have been introduced into the
literature of the field under discussion."

	Okay McVay, who "introduced into the literature of the field
under discussion"?
	When you say you have the "hard copy", are you saying it is
different from what was posted, or what was posted is the "hard copy"?

	McVay, tell the reader who wrote the "Foot note". 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 30 23:40:59 PDT 1996
Article: 33723 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news2.interlog.com!news.magmacom.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The best of Nizkor
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 15:14:27 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 15
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	"The suspense is almost overwhelming.  Will Moran (in mode
Giwerundic) now _re-repost_ ?  Or will he exit stage left as his alter
ego moves to centre-stage and picks up the thread in tortable
paupacy?!
	It's always a such a treat to watch "denier duos dancin' the
dynamic doublespeak";>)"

Hilary Ostrov 
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/myssiwyg.html
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 30 23:41:00 PDT 1996
Article: 33875 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 13:48:54 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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	The Holocaust story is one that is mostly supported by
"eyewitness" accounts of what they saw.

	UFO stories are largely based on "eyewitness" accounts of what
they saw.

	The Holocaust story is supported by survivor testimony.

	UFO stories now number over hundreds of survivor accounts of
being taken on board a alien spacecraft and subjected to medical
experiments.

	The Holocaust story relies on physical evidence, such as a
door from a gas chamber, some brick ovens in a Holocaust museum, a
pile of shoes or an empty can of Zyklon B.

	UFO stories pose physical evidence also, like a wound someone
says they got from a ordeal encounter with aliens' a piece of metal
said to come from a UFO crash and even the Great Pyramides of Egypt.

	The Holocaust presents some photos, such as a ruin said to
have been a gas chamber, or people standing by rail cars and said to
be undergoing selection for gas chambers. 

	UFO stories include photos of aliens, circles in farmers
fields as proof of alien landing and photos of rock formations on Mars
said to be ruins of a past civilization.

	The Holocaust has had many of it's claims exposed as lies,
such as Auschwitz numbers, gas through shower heads and soap made of
human fat.

	UFO stories have had many of their claims exposed as being
lies, such as the two farmers who confessed to pulling off the hoax of
a landing site in their fields.

	Interesting.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 30 23:41:01 PDT 1996
Article: 33876 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WOW "100 MEGABYTES" WOW
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 13:49:02 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <31861a4b.205639@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>		

	Nizkor mentalities have taken up the 100 MEGABYTES milestone
as their official site motto. At least one of them has anyway. McVay'S
new sugnature now reads;
                            ==========
"The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational
Resource
    Over 100 Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl"
                            ==========
            
Okay. With the evidence submitted, maybe the Nizkor mentalstates can
continue on to tell what significance "100 megabytes" has that people
should see as meaningful to anything.

Could it be accurate to say that well over 100 megabytes have been
written about UFO accounts? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 30 23:41:02 PDT 1996
Article: 33877 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Watch This
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 13:49:09 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 25
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References: <317b9ec0.6352405@news.pacificnet.net> <22APR199619113548@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <317e33d0.316477@news.pacificnet.net> <24APR199612524780@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>  <4m16e8$11s4@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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 	McFee responding to Van Alstines crowing that he had just
bought Goldhagen's book and was going to snuggle up with it:

	"I agree with much of what you say, Mark, but we must not be
too quick--not that I am claiming you are--to exculpate the "ordinary"
people of other countries.  The willingness of far too many
Ukrainians, Latvians, French,
and many more, to assist the Nazis in their extermination of the Jews
is a sad story indeed.  We must also guard against forgetting just how
apathetic most people are to what their governments do.  The large
mass stands back and lets it happen, and there are many recent as well
as ancient examples. 
	That is partially an indictment of humanity, not just of
Germans."


	Watch this. McFee, of course you think that U.S. support for
the Jews killing children, rousting populations, killing other
civilians, blowing up their houses, tearing up their orchards,
incarcerating them in concentration camps and the myriad of other
sleezy practices shouldn't be an example of your moral, "We must also
guard against forgetting just how apathetic most people are to what
their governments do.  The large mass stands back and lets it happen,
and there are many recent as well as ancient examples". 



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 30 23:41:03 PDT 1996
Article: 33879 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The best of Nizkor
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:00:20 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	"Don't worry, Danny. I think Li'l Tommie has finally figured
out how to
use his rigii to cut and paste - and he got carried away practicing
his new skills.

Either that, or he's trying to imitate the Giwer-troll."

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 30 23:41:03 PDT 1996
Article: 33881 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:15:00 GMT
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meirman@erols.com wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>
>>	"Anti-Semitism" is a term that has been thrown around so much
>>that it musters up smirks if it should arise in conversation. Seems
>
>>	
>>	The antithesis of the term "Semite" is "Goyim".
>>Goyim is a negative term. 
>
>Goyim is not a negative term. Only people who don't speak Yiddish
>think so.   And of course muddle-headed idiots like the one above who
>posts  to a white-power news group
>
>Shalom

	"Shalom" is a word Jews alot by saying, not by doing. 

	"Goyim" means nigger, spick, sand nigger, chink, beaner etc.
all at once. "Cattle" is another definition.  



>meirman@erols.com      also not a posek
>
>"Purify our hearts to serve You in truth.
>      Taher libanu l'ovdecho b'emes.     "
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 30 23:41:04 PDT 1996
Article: 33883 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: HOLOCAUST OF MIND
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:23:06 GMT
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	Entered here you will find a number of ravings that can be
taken as racist exaggerations. We can assume these examples are only a
small fraction of the ethnocentric, blurtatious material that the
Jewish community gets involved with. This community makes up less than
2% of the American population and yet are responsible for about 100%
of the racist ads, columns and letters that appear in our papers. You
may notice under example XVIII "What Being Jewish Means to Me" is the
15th of those presented in the N.Y.Times. Over the last 15 years
hundreds of full, half and quarter page ads have been placed in just
two newspapers, the N.Y. and L.A. Times by Jews giving themselves rave
reviews. They seem not able to control themselves, even including
racist ego statements in Holocaust promotional books. 
	Most of the listings here were posted before under
"Zioexaggerations = 200,000,000". Some new examples have been
included, for those who may have read the others already.
        Since the post covers a number of examples, I would recommend
reading it a piece at a time.

                                                       Tom Moran
                           ==============


I.           - "South West Jewish Archives" -
 (Webcrawler > Jews > Southwestern Jewish Archives > Crypto-Jews)
 
	"The Bloom Southwest Jewish Archives has amassed an enormous
amount of information ..." to show that the Catholics were stupid
people and that Jews were the only ones who could read and write in
pioneer days.
	The Spanish Catholics feared the Jews because they had
"special expertise in various fields".
	Offering up the best of their "enormous" archives, we might
assume, the Blooms cite a few examples to support their apparent
motive of portraying Jews as superior, the first being a "'Mrs.O'" who
had the feeling she was Jewish, because she was raised in a Hispanic
community and her family was the only '"family who were intellectuals,
so therefore we must have been Jewish"'. "Pressed" further she said
'"Well we were the only ones who had books in our house therefore we
must have been Jewish"'.
	Another example given by the Blooms to lead us to how
extensive Jewish presence was in the Old West was from "a young man"
who remembered his grandfather carving menorahs.
	In another display of ethnocentricism and exemplifying the
genetic connection of Judaism, the Blooms quote a Denver dentist who
joined a Jewish congregation, saying he did not have to convert, "even
though his father was a church going Catholic, his mother did not want
him to go to church and told him repeatedly that she was Jewish and
therefore he was too". "My mother was the clever one in the family"
and their "...Catholic friends sneared at us". 
	Another example from the "enormous" archives was a translater
>from  the Univ. of Ariz. who had a amulet with Hebrew text and who's
mother never cooked pork.
	Still another person raised by a "Catholic" mother wrote a
response to a letter (not discused) that appeared in the The
Albuquerque Journal, and the response quoted in part by the Blooms
proclaimed, "...scratch a New Mexican and his Indian blood will flow.
Scratch a little deeper and his Jewish or Moorish blood will flow.
Scratch no deeper 'cause that's all you need to know."
                           =============


II.               "ISRAEL IS OUR ONLY PRIORITY" 
So goes the banner heading in a 1/4 page ad in the New York Times
1/23/94, under a little prelude copy that cites " -January 27, 1994-
is the New Year of the Trees."
	"Founded in 1901, the Jewish National Fund has long been
designated as the sole agency in charge of afforestation and land
reclamation in Israel."
	"JNF has planted over 200,000,000 trees throughout Israel. JNF
also builds roads and parks; prepares land for housing, agriculture
and industry ..."  the later being that area outside of the 8000 sq.
miles of the whole of Israel we would have to eliminate when trying to
figure out how many trees per sq. yard 200,000,000 trees would come
out to.

	After a little more boasterous copy we are given a sketch of a
rolling hill vista covered with trees. I wonder what a photograph
would show?
	Whatever the real story, this ad was placed in an American
newspaper for some reason. Evidentally to let us know how ecologically
minded they are. 200,000,000 trees? 
                         ==================
 
III.	I CHRONICLES;   Hebrew historians recount the greatness of
David. He mustered up over 230,000 men.  He then slew the Philistines,
taking a thousand chariots, seven thousand horsemen and twenty
thousand footmen.  He then slew the Syrians, twenty thousand men.
David then made war against the Ammons who had two thousand chariots
and forty thousand men, along with the Syrians(Evidentally those left
over that David didn't kill)who had forty thousand men and seven
thusand chariots, and David's forces killed them all. His empire then
spanned all the way to the Euphrates.  More awesome than Ghangis Khan,
more awesome than the Romans, more than Darius, more than Alexander
the Great, more than - well, more than anybody. 
           Of course there is no other record to show this ever
happened. In fact Biblical scholars have had to resort to confirming
anything in the Bible by looking into the records of other societies
of the time. The last biblical archeological expedition to the land
was in the sixties, according to the "Bible Almanac", and many
historians now find it difficult to accept anything in the biblical
scriptures as credible.
	According to a article in the N.Y.Times on a recent dig in
Israel, a obscure obliterated inscription was said to be the first
evidence that a David ever existed at all. Even this is said to be
questioned. At a recent symposium of biblical scholars in
Philadelphia, Penn. a number of them expressed their opinion that
there never was a David.
	Contents of the Bible shows a lot more than the above as to
exaggerated claims and suggests the Jewish propensity to exaggerate
started a long time ago.
                            =================


IV.                Dec. 13, 1995, New York Times
                  Quarter page ad by the ADL.

         	    "IN THE FACE OF HATE"

   "ADL is truly a grassroots civil rights and human relations
organization. One of the largest and most respected in the world." 
                            ===============


V.                         Raul Hilberg,
             "The Destruction of European Jews"

"On October 30, 1941, Gebietskommissar Carl of Slutsk reported to
Generalkommissar Kube of White Russia that the 11th Lithuanian Police
Battalion had arrived in his city suddenly in order to wipe out the
Jewish community. He had pleaded with the battalion commander for a
postponement, pointing out that the Jews were working as skilled
laborers and specialists and that White Russian mechanics were, '"so
to speak, nonexistent'".
	Stupid Russians.
                            =================


VI.	     "The Destruction of the European Jewery"
		        Raul Hilberg	

	"On Nov.7 Gouverneur Fischer of the Warsaw district proposed
that the Warsaw Jews (whose number he estimated at 300,000) be
incarcerated in a ghetto, and Frank gave his immediate consent ...
During the winter, Fischer created a Resettlement Division under
Waldermar Schon, who was going to have a major role in ghetto planning
... The first idea, in February, to locate the ghetto in the eastern
bank of the Vistula River, was turned down ... on the ground that 80
percent of Warsaw's artisans were Jews ... and were indispensible ..."

	Well it seems Hilberg gives the Poles more sense than the
White Russians whose talents he claimed were for the most part
"nonexistant" in relation to the Jews and the Poles in their own
nation made up 20%. Either way - stupid Poles.
	One could wonder what ratio of "artisans" he would profess the
Jews have in America. 
                          ===============
                  
VII.	As to the statement, 'Well it seems Hilberg gives the Poles
more sense than the White Russians whose talents he claimed were for
the most part "nonexistant" in relation to the Jews.' 
                       
	Danny Mittleman, alt.rev. regular, responded to this with;

        "I guess so."	

As to the statement, 'One could wonder what ratio of "artisans" he
(Hilberg) would profess the Jews have in America.' 

	Danny Mittleman responed:
    "I don't know.  I would guess it to be less than 80% for two
reasons: 
    One, for many years Jews were systematically kept out of trade
unions so less Jewish families developed traditions in specific
fields.  And two, many Jewish children in the United States go to
College and Graduate School and take on careers common at those
education levels."
	
	Which means if it wasn't for this, the Jews would be at least
80% of the artisan story in America. Stupid Americans.
                            ================	 

VIII.    Nizkor > Shofar FTP > camps > Mauthausen > Hungary .01

	"The fate of the Jewish settlement in Hungary -- one of the
largest in Europe -- was a desolating climax to the tragic Holocaust
period. Before Hitler came to power in 1933 there were about 800,000
Jews in greater Hungary, 200,000 of then living in Budapest, where
despite an endemic anti-Semitism, they were at the forefront of
culture, scientific and economic life of the country."

Abram Sachar, "The Redemption of the Unwanted". 1983

	The figure for the number of prewar Jews in Hungary ranges
>from  700,000 to 900,000 - 800,000 here. The 700,000 figure is that set
forth by an estimate by the Germans, which the Jews use as an
authority to show there was a large enough Jewish population in Europe
to have been killed and add up to the 6,000,000. The same source cited
700,000 French Jews, which is currently put at 70,000 in more current
Holocaust books. Evidentally there was too much of one thing or not
enough of another to maintain the gross exaggeration for France, so we
should seriously consider any figures given in the list. 
                            ==============


IX.	"The Jews are Gods chosen people."

                            ==============

X.	- "The Jews created the one god." -

	Can you picture it? A bunch of ancient Hebrews squating around
and all of a sudden they all jump up at the same time saying, 'I got
it.'

	Actually, Akhenaten, a Pharoah of Egypt installed the concept
over Egypt a hundred years prior to the time "Exodus" is said to have
taken place.
	Also, Zoroaster was a philosopher of a one god, preceding the
first record of Hebrews.
	There are also some primitive tribes in Borneo, and the
Americas that hold to the concept.
	And then there is the most recurrent theme in the "Old
Testament" which is the writers constantly berating the Hebrews for
not adhereingto the one god and following "false idols", evidentally a
common practice among the people. 
                            ===============

	
XI.	Without any shred of proof, and nothing more than 
       ethnocentric fixations, the Jews announce:

                "CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS WAS A JEW."

	I recall a converstion with a Jewish person not too long ago
where he said "Christopher Columbus was most likely a Jew". When I ask
him 'most likely?' he couldn't come back with anything else.
	One piece of evidence offered in the Los Angeles Times by a
ethnocentric was he "looks Jewish".  I recall seeing a similar account
offered about Shakespeare, with further evidence being that he seemed
to go easy on the character - Shylock.  
                           ====================	       

XII.	             "What price Israel"
                     Alfred M. Lilienthal

	"Here is a paradox, a most ingenious paradox, an anthroplogic
fact, many Christians may have much more Hebrew-Isrealite blood
in their veins than most of their Jewish neighbors"

	Dr. Lilienthal has for a number of years been associated with
certain publications that focus on telling the truth about Israel and
Zionism, with his attacks on Jewish activities being of the most
scathing.
	Nevertheless, having had personal communication with Dr.
Lilienthal and meeting him once at his initiative, I recognized that
he had an underlying motive. He knows the truthful analysis he puts
out about Jews and Zionism will find it's way out anyway, so he comes
out and says it too so the Jews will have someone to point to in order
to demonstrate they have the capacity for open mindedness. I
recognized Lilienthal as a "cryptic Jew" from the early stages. I
would say he associated himself with anti-Zionist parties in order to
have some influence on the intensity of the their output. Jews often
attach themselves to organizations for this reason only. The above
statement shows that he has a Jewish agenda at his core. I once heard
him, in an address to an Arab association, say they had common bonds
through Abraham, which was a clincher for me at the time, to be more
suspicious of the cryptic nature of his coming on like a anti-Zionist.

	Lets look at his own wording. I take his use of the word
"paradox" to mean the dictionary option: "a statement or proposition
seemingly self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expressing a
possible truth". This can be further confirmed by his asserting
"anthropological fact".
	Lilienthal appears almost as flaming as the Bloom's, who I
reported on above who assert that Jewish "blood" is prevalaint in
Western mans gene pool. 
	Any intermixing of "blood" would be a two way street. By
putting it the way Lilienthal and the Bloom's put it they would have
us believe that the Jewish blood would become the prevalaint factor,
displacing the traces of the others while their's becomes the ruling
gene.
	"Anthropological" refers to a empirical process, which comes
under the "scientific method". If Lilienthal and the Bloom's make
these claims, let them present the empirical path to their
consclusions. The Bloom's concept of empiricism is summarized above,
which if this was ever taken as a prime example for empirical
standards we would still be in the dark ages.

	Heres another example of empirical recogning to see if
Lilienthal, Bloom's and any other ethnocentric raving on the subject
carries any validity at all.

	The Jewish record, according to the science of archeology goes
back to maybe 1250 BC. Their only record, according to themselves is
found in their Bible which puts them at the beginning of the universe.
As far as any other record of their existence, in the early stages,
there are a couple of referrences to them made by other societies of
the time, but these are from around 600 BC.
	As far as the area of biblical narrative is concerned, there
is considerable record from other societies concerning the area, but
not about the Hebrews themselves. The area was never controlled fully
by any Hebrew people. It was always under the occupation authority of
many different and more significant civilizations. Egypt, the
Assyrians, Babylonians, Hittites, Greeks and Romans to mention a few.
There is also the Jews own story of how they went into the land around
the time of 1250 BC, whereas archeological digs show civilization
there for thousands of years before that.
	All of these societies put settlements into the area which
ended up interbreeding with the inhabitants, the Hebrews among them.
This would be taking place over a long period. Maybe one of the only
biblical narratives that can be shown to hold any validity at all is
an account of how a few ten thousands of Hebrews were carried away to
Babylon, later allowed to return after a sweeping decree by Cyrus who
set free many from many different areas with out mentioning the Jews
in particular. When this carrying away took place it is said that the
Babylonians replaced the displaced Hebrews in Palestine, and by the
time the Hebrews returned after many decades in Babylon, intermingling
we should suppose, the Babylonians had already intergrated with the
remaining population, especially in the Sumerian sector.
	So, from this we assume that any "blood" specialization that
may have existed among the Hebrews was already diluted to a great
degree before even the invasion of the Greeks and Romans who set up
colonys of their own. Combining this with what took place over the
next two thousand years we can see that any Hebrew "blood" was so
thoroughly intermixed that it's original identity would be almost
erased. 
	As to any superiority being associated with Jewish "blood" we
should also look at the record through the empirical method. If one
should look into existing history books, the index, and look up
Hebrew, Egyptian, Assyrian, Roman, Greek and a number of others, we
might find Hebrew on say, page 15, 234 - 235, whereas under the others
we might see something like Romans, page 15, 64, 108 - 119, 340 - 360.
In fact any books on the Bible would be quite boring affairs if they
didn'tinclude pictures of art and commentary of societies other than
the Hebrews. The Hebrews were not innovators in anything. No record is
there. They even, by thier own record, had to call on the
Phoenecians to build their temple.
	The Romans and the Greeks have left behind a record that makes
the Bible look like a pamphlet. The Greeks and the Romans were great
in theatre, art, literature, engineering, philosophy and other
innovations that are totally absent from the Hebrew record. 
	Even after the biblical era unto now there is no record of
Hebrew superiority. I will state now that nothing like this would be
written if it wasn't for the many boastings by the Jews themselves
about their being superior. It is a world where things are said and
things are challenged. If they think they rate any special exclusion
>from  being doubted or denied it only shows the degree of ethnocentric
righteousness.
	The only record of any true accomplishment associated with
Hebrewism has occured in the last century. Even here it can be shown,
using the empirical dynamics of anthropology, that any accomplishments
associated with Hebrewism is really the result of non-Hebrewism.
	Take names like Einstein, Oppenheimer and a few other European
names who are touted as Jewish whenever their names come up. They all
have a German, Italian or other western connection. Of course the
Hebrew ego will blurt out that names like Heisenberg, Shroedinger,
Plank, Galileo, Newton, and a whole slue of others came to be from the
Jewish gene. This I have witnessed personally. In this case we would
have to look at other areas the Jews have taken root, such as Romania,
Soviet Union, Hungary, other nations of the Middle East, North Africa
and in South America. Judging by the names of those who seem to be at
the head of he Jewish community, we can see a lot of German names. 
	So tracing Hebrews from the very onset of their record to now
shows that there is absolutely nothing there to show that Hebrew
"blood" prevails anywhere and that any unique benevolent qualities are
associated with it or they are inherently more "brilliant" than
goyims.
	No one is more aware, at least subliminally, than the Hebrews,
who have to resort to making boasterous announcements, no.1 in the
process of chutzpah.
	The Jews have wide record of stating they are the only group
to exist from ancient times, constantly raving about their enduring
cohesion. The Jew finds it necissary to stay together in order to ply
their way in the world. They, not having the inherent strength and
capability to go it alone have always stuck together to capitalize on
the talents and production of others. They have the most repeated
history in the world, one of constantly being the recipients of
backlash to their conspiracies to manipulate others for the Jewish
interest. They call it persecution. But if a little boy is constantly
getting into trouble, who's fault is it? Any common recognition would
have to put the ultimate responsibility on the little boy. In fact
they thrive on this history. Glorify in being persecuted, evidentally
giving them some sense of accomplishment as a people.
                           =================
                           
XIII.	Go to Tombstone Arizona. Visit Boot Hill. Follow the sign to
"Jewish Cemetary". You will come upon a low adobe wall around a 300
foot square area. In the center on a pedestal is a little pLaque that
reads something like:

	'Here lies some Jewish citizens of old Tombstone, "Friends of
the Indians".

	I know that the Jews are very avid in crawling around
Washington seeking billions for Israel, but I don't ever recall seeing
them active in bringing better times to anyone else, especially the
American Indian. In fact we could surmise that for every dollar that
goes to Israel, it is less that which could be used for the indigent
American.

	No, no. The Jews didn't go to Tombstone to reep of the gold
and silver mines, they went there out of concern for the Indians.  
                            ===================
	
XIV.	Lizard" (Lizard@dnai.com) wrote in "Re:Simon Wiesenthal
Center's *previous* internet censorship attempts" -

	"The amount of cross breeding between Jews and Christians in
Europe is such that the gene pool is hopelessly mixed as is, more
importantly the meme pool.
	Try to purge all '"Jewish influences"' from any good library
of classical literature and you'll have no books left."
	"Lizard" should get together with the Blooms.
                           =================	

XV.	About ten years ago the L.A.Times carried a little notice
about a discussion panel at UCLA by their Hillel chapter in which it
was going to be shown that American humor came from the Jews. 
	They were going to do it by showing some passages from the Old
Testiment. Looking up the one sample example noted, didn't show
anything funny.
	The topic of, no humor can be found in the Bible, is one that
is recognized and commented on by many.
                            =================

XVI.	About 5 years ago, a local newpaper carried an article written
by a Jew who interviewed another Jew about his expertise in some
martial art said to have been developed in Israel. The article went on
to say he was giving instruction to local police departments and that
the technique was "awesome" - "...even more awesome than Gracy
jujitsu".
	Gracy jujitsu is an art that a Scotchman living in Brazil
developed late in the 19th Century.
	For the last few years there have been matches shown on TV
that pits one martial art against another. I believe the first one was
called "The Ultimate Challenge". Its a elimination fight down. All
forms can show up to participate.
	During that match and all subsequent matches, Gracy
representatives have won.
	The Gracys, the initial Gracy"s off spring, have offered over
the last number of years, $100,000 to anyone who can beat them.
	The Jew with the Jewish martial art form that is "more awesome
than Gracy" or any other representative of the awesome technique have
never shown up to take the challenge or to participate and show their
awesome techniques at any of the TV fight downs.
	A personal aquantance who knows the Gracys ask the Gracys if
they knew anything about this awesome Jewish technique and they never
even heard of it.
	Considering the Gracys $100,000 reward, we can see they put
their money were their mouth is, and the Jewish techniquers merely
stick out the spoon of chutzpah.  
                           =================

XVII.                   "WHAT BEING JEWISH MEANS TO ME"
  The latest to appear under this heading that appears in quarter page
ads in the N.Y.Times with regular frequency is one by Justice Ruth
Bader Ginsberg, 1/14/96.

	"There is an age-old connection between Judaism and law. For
centuries, rabbis and other Jewish scholars have studied, restudied,
and ceaslessly interpreted the Talmud. These studies have produced a
vast corpus of judicial writing. Jews have been called '"the people of
the book"', reflecting their placemnent of learning first among
cultural values.
	The Jewish tradition prized the scholarship of judges and
lawyers, and when anti-Semitic occupational restrictions were lifted,
Jews were drawn to the learned professions of the countries in which
they lived. In the U.S., law became the bulwark against the kind of
oppression Jews had endured ... Jews in large numbers became lawyers,
some eventually became judges, and the best of those jurists used law
to secure jsutice for others.
	Laws as protectors of the oppressed, the poor, the loner, is
evident in the work of my Jewish predecessors ...
	The late Supreme Court justice (and former American Jewish
Committee president) Arthur Goldberg once said, '"My concern for
justice, for peace, for enlightenment, all stem from my heritage"'. I
am fortunate to be linked to that heritage.
	Each time I visit the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, I am
reminded that Hitler's evil kingdom, his '"Holocaust Kingdom"', was a
kingdom full of laws. ..."

	Ginsberg then goes on to tell us how the German justices went
astray and then continued on with how wonderful Judaic thinking is.

	The ad is placed by The American Jewish Committee.

	"The American Jewish Committee is proud to present this
message, the fifteenth in a series, on the meaning of being Jewish
today."

	"For information on a variety of programs which can help you
explore your connection to Judaism, write ..."

	""Founded in 1906, the American Jewish Committee is dedicated
to strengthening the Jewish community, enriching the quality of Jewish
life, and enhancing democratic values for all."


Dear Ruth Ginsberg and the American Jewish Committee,
	As to the claims made in your advertisment, N.Y. Times,
1/14/96, stating that Jews are righteously concerned with democracy
and rights for others, I have a few questions before I can accept the
proposals as being sincere.   
	What record do you have as to the Israeli policy of shooting
down little kids, and their policy of condoning torture? What is your
view on the Jewish imprisionment of thousands of Palestinians without
trial? What is your opinion on the jews in Israel razing peoples
houses. What is your view on Israeli defiance of U.N. resolutions?
What is your view on Israel terrorizing 100s of 1000s in Lebanon.
	Do you think support of Israel should be subject to a
democratic vote by the citizens of the U.S.? Do you think that support
of Israel is a violation of our 'separation of church and state'
clause?
	What is your view of Holocaust revisionism? Do you think
revisionists have the right to be heard, in the press, on TV, on
campus? What is your view on the continuing activity of the Simon
Wiesenthal Center and the ADL to bring censorship to the Worldwide
Web? Do you think they should be required to name offending sites
explicitly and should be required to present their case before a
democratic vote?
	Do you have any record to show you have addressed any of this?
                           ================

XVIII.                    Quote from the Talmud
	"He who so ever saves the life of a Jew, is as if he had saved
the life of the whole world."
	Which further implies, 'He who so ever saves the life of a
goyim, is as if he had saved nothing'.
                           ================

XIX.                   Statement by a Israeli leader at a 
                      "Salute to Israel" gathering in L.A.
	"The United States wouldn't be what it is if it wasn't for
Israel".
	Now there is a true statement. The Unitied States, and the
world, would be a lot better off if Israel never existed. 
                            ===============

XX.                The Jew who took 500 Japanese prisoners.

	The full account was posted on alt.rev. a number of months
ago. It had also received exposure in public newspapers.
	About ten years ago or so a Jew laid claim to the
Congressional Metal of Honor. His story was that he took 500 Japanese
prisoners. For some reason and eventually, almost the full U.S. Senate
got involved in special legislation to have the matter considered
seriously, and were opting to award the nations highest citation.  As
it turned the Jew was exposed as a liar and the matter slid away into
the history of the rest of the exaggerations.
	The matter was taken up by the Senate on the urgings of major
Jewish organizations, which makes the lie their lie. The lie was
exposed by members of the claiming person's unit during the war. The
Jews tried to make it look like it was on their initiative, the Simon
Wiesenthal Center being one of the Jewish oraganizations involved.
	 

   


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 30 23:41:05 PDT 1996
Article: 33898 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!inquo!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JEWISH ARITHMETIC??
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 13:49:14 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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William Grosvenor  wrote:

>What special JEWISH ARITHMETIC is used to increase several million 
>dollars to SEVEN BILLION?
>
>Is it this special Jewish Arithmetic that increased the International Red 
>Cross figure of 320,000 to the now fictitious figure of six millions?
>
>A Jewish friend tells me of thier joke for counting - 2 percent interest 
>is when you lend one dollar,and ask for three back - one plus two is 
>three.

	It's called "chutzpah". Child logic. The numerical description
would be something like, 2 + 2 = 3 and/or 5, but not 4.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 30 23:41:06 PDT 1996
Article: 33909 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TREBLINKA
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 15:51:34 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  writes:
>
>[Repost of old "revisionist" hogwash]
>
># Wartime Aerial Photos of Treblinka Cast New Doubt on  
># Death Camp Claims
>
>[...]
>
># Aerial reconnaissance photographs taken in 1944 of the 
># Treblinka death camp site -- and forgotten for almost 45 years 
># in the National Archives in Washington, DC -- cast serious 
>doubts 
># on the widely accepted story that it was a mass extermination 
># center.
>
>This is truly amazing, as the camp was destroyed after the 
>rebellion of August 1943. Didn't bother to check this out, did you?
>Maybe my hunch was right: the photos were taken from one of
>Zundel's UFO's, a light-year away, so, although taken in
>1944, they showed what happened in 1943? We have surely heard
>"revisionist" claims no less insane than this one...

	"Didn't bother to check this out, did you?"  Check it out with
who or what, professor? One of your pet witness accounts? Some
Holocaust book? 

                      "Stupid Germans III"
                         Posted 2/20/96

	Even though, according to Holocaust facts, the Germans had
murdered almost a million at Treblinka two years before, and had at
first buried their bodies in pits, only to realize they would have to
do away with the evidence and dug them up again, burned them and then
reburied the ashes, the Germans ended up doing the same thing at
Auschwitz, where Holocaust facts have it that hundreds of thousands
were murdered in "bunkers 1 and 2", buried, dug up, burned and the
ashes disposed of.
              
	Professor Keren's response; 
"Consequently, as early as September 1942, unearthing the mass graves
at Birkenau commenced. The bodies that had been buried
 .."  pg. 163 - "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp".
 
Your whole point was "why did the SS bury many corpses in Auschwitz,
if they decided two years before, in Treblinka, that this was not
a good thing to do?.
 
Unfortunately for this brilliant "revisionist" argument, you are
wrong about the dates. According to what you wrote, Treblinka
operated two years before Sep. 1942. However, the camp only 
began operating during July 1942.
 
You have convincingly demonstrated, once again, that you have not
the foggiest idea of what you are talking about.
 
 Marty, if your following this, mark it for your upcoming
 program to expose revisionists as idiots.
 
I am sure he will.
Danny Keren.

 "Leleko Interogation", Nizkor files.

"Starting in 1943, after the incinerator was built, the pits with the
bodies buried in them were opened up and the content burned."

	Professor, in what year and month did the "little red" and
"little white" houses ("bunkers 1 and 2") begin to operate? This is
the account that mentions the bodies were buried and then dug up
later.

># Moreover, the camp's burial area quite obviously appears too 
># small to contain the hundreds of thousands of bodies supposedly 
># buried there.
>
>Only if you practice "revisionist math". Do a little exercise.
>Compute the volume of an average corpse (remember that many
>of the victims were infants and children). Then, compute how
>many fit into a mass grave, say 50 X 20 X 8 meters. Allow
>some inefficiency in the "packing" of the corpses. Post
>your result here.

	This is the professors response to math posed by revisionists.
Either revisionist math or Moranic math, but no mathematical come
back. He says compute the average volumn of a human. He says take into
account infants and children, but doesn't say what ratio.  "Allow some
efficiency for packing", he says. The professor is the king of
'eyewitness posts' and we should assume he has an eyewitness to cite
as to the size of any graves.

>
># According to an eyewitness account received in November 1942
># in London from the Warsaw ghetto underground organization, 
># Jews were exterminated in death rooms at Treblinka with steam 
># coming out of the numerous holes in the pipes.
>
>An incorrect observation by members of the Polish underground,
>who were spying on the camp from a distance. When the doors 
>of the gas chambers were opened, a cloud of the engine's
>exhaust came out. This was probably mistaken for steam. 

	How feeble. Maybe he can post his eyewitness that stated it
was a mistake. Maybe he should list some of the other major fallacies
that the Polish underground released. Anyway one should take notice of
the professor's "This was probably ..."     "Probably" professor?

># However, as American engineer Friedrich Berg has established, 
># this story is improbable for technical reasons. (note 23) In 
>spite 
># of the obnoxious odor of diesel exhaust, diesel engines produce 
># much smaller quantities of toxic carbon monoxide than ordinary 
># gasoline motors. 
>
>As noted here numerous times, a long series of experiments, conducted
>in Britain in 1957, proved that the exhaust of a tiny (6 BHP)
>diesel engine kills animals which are locked in a closed chamber.
>Surely, the exhaust of a 500 BHP engine (of a tank) would also 
>be lethal.

	Does the professor say what the animals died of, being locked
in a "closed chamber"? Does he say who killed the animals? Does he say
how big the chamber was and how long the animals were in there? Does
he say what kind of animals? Does he say anything about the low CO
content of diesel fumes in relation to CO in gas fumes? Does he say
what the "long series of experiments" consisted of, or why they would
have to be extensive? Does he say what relevance his assertion that
the test have been "noted here several times" has to do with anything?
	No. 

>BTW, Friedrich Berg appeared on this newsgroup about 2 years
>ago. Whenever someone refuted his claims, Berg began calling
>him "creature", "Jewish trash", etc. A true "revisionist
>scholar".

	Now if he got into some name calling that would pretty well
correspond with other mentalities that are the professors allies, and
including the professor himself. If Berg did some test, then the test
are the only relevant thing done. I personally don't know what the CO
content differences are between gas and diesel fuel, but I know it
wouldn't need any long sophisticated research. Sounds like something
one could find out about at a smog station.

># For example, it turned out that none of the witnesses in the 
># 1951 West German Treblinka court case ever actually saw anyone 
># being gassed.
>
>This is typical "revisionist" insanity. These people - both
>survivors and Germans who ran the camp - testified that the
>victims were herded into the chambers, the engine turned on,
>and the victims later taken out, dead. The witnesses were not 
>inside the chambers, and they didn't have closed circuit TV to
>watch what was happening inside them. A peephole was installed
>in some chambers but, as Prof. Pfannenstiel testified, it
>was quickly covered with steam.

	The professor is a connoisseur of "eyewitness testimony".
Recently I posted "Testimonial Fiction" which was an analytical
critique of the "Leleko interogation" an eyewitness at Treblinka.
As of yet, noone has come over to challenge the critque, including the
professor himself.
	Leleko mentioned a peep hole, which he said he tried looking
through once, but couldn't see anything, wereas the "motorist" who ran
the diesel engine could look inside and gave Leleko a detailed
description of everything that was going on inside. Another report in
Nizkor files states there were no lights in the chambers. 

># Polish farmers worked the fields that directly adjoined the
># camp. 
>
>And one can look in the movie "Shoa" and see what they said
>took place in Treblinka... but don't expect a "revisionist"
>to mention this, of course. That's the good old "lying by
>omission" trick.

	Professor, speaking of "omission", are you addressing all the
points made, or are you just addressing certain ones and interjecting
your own obsessive focus on how many bodies could fit into the area,
while ommitting address to the other relevancies posted?


># In the area where the gas chambers were supposed to have been 
># located, the commission's team of 30 excavation workers 
>reportedly 
># found human remains, partially in the process of decay, and an 
># unspecified amount of ash. Untouched sandy soil was reached at 
># 7.5 meters, at which point the digging was halted. 
>
>Again, note the depth of the graves. The claims about the size
>of the burial area being too small to hold hundreds-of-thousands
>of corpses are false. A simple calculation will prove this. Let's
>see our "revisionist scholars" here at work...

	Now I did some ball park figures for how may bodies could be
buried within the area specified and I think it would be possible to
bury a few hundred thousand. Now what? One could do that for any area,
but it doesn't say it happened.
	The fact is the test Mr. Beaulieu is referring to here is one
posted by Mr. Morris a few months ago in response to "Where are the
mass graves?". I recall doing a critique on it, basically pointing out
the wording in the post which said they "found human remains" without
saying how many. One, two, a thousand or hundred thousand?
"Unspecified amount of ash"? How much was that? A quart, a barrel, a
ton? The report strived to be uncommitted. Like the Polish report on
cyanide traces found at Auschwitz.

>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>-Lu Xun.
 Lies written in ink can only be exposed as lies if evidence is given

 to show it. Merely putting "Lies written in ink can never disguise
facts written in blood" at the end of a post does not make the post
legitimate.




From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 30 23:41:07 PDT 1996
Article: 33910 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay says 'F you alt.rev. readers'
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:02:26 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
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Message-ID: <3186388e.7952755@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <317f8646.3510696@news.pacificnet.net> <3183633a.4259433@news.pacificnet.net> <3183d82c.5977715@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>On Sun, 28 Apr 1996 12:48:28 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>[a long analysis of the Crakow forensic report]
>>
>>	This analytical critique on the report by the Polish
>>government on cyanide traces found at Auschwitz today and presented to
>>the group from the Nizkor files by Richard Green includes allegations
>>that the report has been tampered with. It cites names and passages.
>
>This all well and good, and I will leave it others more qualified to
>answer you. But the specific charge you have made is that Ken McVay
>tampered with the report, and it is a charge that you have not yet
>supported. As you wrote:
>
>   From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>   Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>   Subject: McVay says 'F you alt.rev. readers'
>   Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:16:38 GMT
>   Message-ID: <317f8646.3510696@news.pacificnet.net>
>
>[snip]
>
>	The recap: The Polish report taken from Nizkor files is laced
>   with McVay's interjection without notes stating when and where and
>   to what extent. This is the charge. 
>
>Yet the only evidence you offer in support of this charge is the
>following:
>
>>	We are then given a professional "Transcription Note" by Ken
>>McVay: "My copy of this document has two
>>corrections made, in ballpoint pen, concerning the crematorium
>>numbers. The first instance could have read "II-IV" in the
>>original, and the second could have read "III" on the
>>original, but the ink obscures the original text. knm."
>>
>>	So we are not sure what we are talking about.
>
>So, your first example of an "interjection" from Mr. McVay is clearly
>marked as such by Mr. McVay. The only person who does not know what he
>is talking about is you. Mr. McVay is simply noting a pen correction
>of the Krema numbering in the copy he received.
>
>In any event, this particular passage does not support your charge
>that Mr. McVay has interpolated a passage without noting it.
>
>[snip]
>
>Then we come to this passage:
>
>>	This statement with it's lengthy un-necessary expansion on CO2
>>exhale was probably written by Ken McVay of Nizkor.
>
>This is your assertion, not proof that Mr. McVay interpolated the
>passage. This is what you have been asked to prove, and this is what
>you have failed to prove.
>
>You have been invited by several people to prove your charge, and you
>have evaded doing so through several exchanges until now. If this is
>all the "evidence" you have that Mr. McVay has tampered with the
>report, then I would suggest that you *cannot* prove your charge that
>the report has been tampered with. I would suggest you withdraw the
>allegation as unproven.

	We'll just have to proceed along and wait and see if McVay is
going to post the "hard copy" and committ himself to saying he didn't
tamper with the report, that the "introduced" material in the report
is by the Polish researchers.
	Whatever you say here is one thing, and what is in the
sequence of exchange thus far is another.
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Apr 30 23:41:07 PDT 1996
Article: 33922 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 13:49:33 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <31861a60.226675@news.pacificnet.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27205 alt.revisionism:33922 soc.culture.jewish:46391

tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Can a true statement be "anti-Semitic"? Like if one should say
'The Jews kill children and justify it'?  The Jews roust whole
civilian societies and say it is a good thing'.



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