From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  1 07:51:02 PDT 1996
Article: 70571 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: test
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:34:16 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> 	test
>
>I have to say that this is perhaps the most coherent thing Mr. Moran (the
>antisemitic one) has posted in some time.

	Now this is a very good example to show to your class so they
will know what kind of responding techniques you have. 

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)   
>
>"The level of discourse in campaigns is so low, we really may 
>as well get in a tub of Jello and wrestle."
>   --Rep. Patricia Schroeder, on Comedy Central's "Politically Incorrect"

	



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  1 07:51:03 PDT 1996
Article: 70580 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Plunder of the Victims, I
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 12:04:34 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Letter from SS-Brigadefuehrer Frank to chief of administration of 
>Auschwitz, concerning the utilization and distribution of "evacuated" 
>Jews, 26 September 1942
>[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - 
>Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. XIII, p. 256-258]
>---------------------------------------------------------------------

	Doesn't say anything about Jews, or the source of whatever.
New comers to alt.revisionism will notice soon enough that things are
always Jewish. The Holcaust story tellers say 11 to 12 million people
were exterminated by the Germans, but you will not see accounts about
what happened to their stuff. We don't even know about this stuff
listed here.
	The poster here, Mr.Keren usually, if not always posts his
evidence for the Holocaust in part. As here. He has "e)", "f)" and so
on, but no 'a), b)', etc.  
	You'll be seeing lots of this sneaky stuff from Holocaust
dependants.

>e) Women's clothing and women underwear including footwear, children's
>clothing and children's underwear including footwear have to be handed 
>over to the Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle against payment...
> 
>f) Featherbeads, quilts, woolen blankets, cloth for suits, shawls,
>umbrellas, walking sticks, thermos flasks, earflaps, baby carriages,
>combs, handbags, leather belts, shopping baskets, tobacco pipes,
>sun glasses, mirrors, table knives, forks and spoons, knapsacks, and
>suitcases made from leather or artificial material are to be delivered
>to the Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle. The question of payment will be
>decided later...
> 
>h) Spectacles and eyeglasses of every kind are to be handed in to
>the medical office for utilization. (Spectacles with golden frames
>have to be handed in without glasses together with the rare metals).

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  1 12:32:09 PDT 1996
Article: 70593 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust researchism
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 12:05:23 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>	The more books there are for the story, the more the lie stands
>out. From a Holocaust deniers position, the more the merrier.

	Quite often Holocaust dependants will post evidence for the
researcher on alt.revisionism, most often being a Mr.Keren. The
general practice is to post sections of eyewitness testimony or
extracts of reports or other documents. The reason much of the stuff
is omitted is because the longer any particular testimony or report,
the more there is to point out discrepancies, either within the very
posted text or when compared to other testimonies and/or documents.
	In the case of long eyewitness testimonies and documents, the
more extended they are the worse for the Holocaust story. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  1 12:32:10 PDT 1996
Article: 70621 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The other 6,000,000?
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 12:03:54 GMT
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	Where are names of those non-Jews, the other 4, 5 or 6 million
said to have murdered by the Germans?


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  1 12:32:11 PDT 1996
Article: 70625 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The 3,000,000 That Never Were
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 11:55:52 GMT
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	At the Yad Vashim Holocaust monument in Israel are stored
3,000,000 names of Jews said to have been victims of the Holocaust.

	This would be equivalent to a telephone book with 9000 pages.

	Will the world ever have the chance to check all these names as
to how they were come by?

	Would the Jews be able to show how they were come by?
	
	Would the Jews be able to show documentation, even remotely
convincing, to show the names are not just phony entries? Fictitious
names?

	Would the Jews agree to an inquiry?

	No.

	It is obvious that a lot of effort has gone into compiling these
names.

	Many Jews must be involved?

	If only 100 Jews were involved, this would mean that each one
would be responsible for entering 30,000 names. Maybe it is more like
1000 Jews each entering 3000 names, or even 3000 Jews each entering
1000 names. Either way, there must be an aweful lot of Jews involved.

	As they enter these names, what could they be thinking? The
Holocaust is true? The Holocaust is false? Most likely these questions
wouldn't even cross the Jewish mental state. The only thing that
counts is the self justifying, self righteous perpetuation of the
Jewish cause. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------
	As it stands, the 3,000,000 names are nothing more than a hollow
plastic display model in a store.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  1 15:19:09 PDT 1996
Article: 70655 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Twelve Year Grace Period / revised
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 16:30:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>	           The Twelve Year Grace Period
>		In with the new books, away with the old.
>
>	              Random House Dictionary,
> "grace" - "6. favor shown in granting a delay or temporary immunity".
>
>========================================================================

	The missing 'graces'.

	Random House Dictionary:

"grace, 1. elegance or beauty of form, manner, motion, or action. 
2. a pleasing or attractive quality or endowment. 3. favor or good
will."


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  1 15:19:10 PDT 1996
Article: 70660 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Twelve Year Grace Period / revised
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 16:23:39 GMT
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	           The Twelve Year Grace Period
		In with the new books, away with the old.

	              Random House Dictionary,
 "grace" - "6. favor shown in granting a delay or temporary immunity".

========================================================================
		
	According to some accounts, the reason the previous numbers of
those said to have been exterminated at Auschwitz was 3 million higher
than the current 1 million is because the Soviets mis-calculated the
numbers of people that could be cremated in the ovens.

	How the Soviets went about this ciphering that resulted in a 300
percent over estimate is not detailed in Holocaust accounts.

	The other account of why the old number was so far off is because
of the intentional conniving on the part of the Poles and Soviets to
inflate Polish casualties so as to deflate Jewish causalities, or
something like that. (The full ride down the bumpy dirt road can be
found on the Simon Wiesenthal web page.)

	If we should accept either excuse, mis-calculation or intentional
lie, we are led to wonder about other things.

	First we would have to recognize that these are the official
Holocaust accounts and that they are the only ways they came up with
the 4 million number, in lieu of anything else.

	There are two other factors that played a role in Auschwitz
numerology. 

	One is by way of "eyewitness" accounts and the other is pre end
of war rumors that were going around with some of them being reported
in major medias.

	The eye witness accounts given immediately at the time of the
liberation of the camps were by a couple of Jewish inmates. The most
cited eyewitness authority for the numbers came from Rudolph Ho'ss
former Auschwitz camp commodant and still a star witness for the
Holocaust story who said there were up to 3 million people killed at
the camp. We have to recognize that since the current number is 2
million less than what the star Holocaust witness said, then either
the current number is wrong or the star witness was wrong, or lying.

	The other pre end of war accounts, which we may consider to be
the seed rumors that set the atmosphere for the subsequent gross
exaggerations, can be traced to those originating and spread from
Jewish organizations. 
	All kinds of numbers and methods were alleged, none of which,
understandably, is presented by the current Holocaust promotional
network at this time. We can recognize the Holocaust promotional
network not using these sources as their admission that their rumors
were not truths and would only tend to expose the absolute origin from
which the gross exaggerations eminated.

	So in a pure research sequence we have to recognize there are the
two basic claims as to why the number was 4 million in the first
place. The incredibly wayward Soviet mathematics as put forth by say,
Nizkor, "The 4 Million Variant" and their source for that, or the
intentional juggling by the Soviets and Poles as claimed by the Simon
Wiesenthal Center.

	Since either one of these is the basic statement on the old
Auschwitz number, we have to recognize there was nothing else, say as
an actual body count, records or forensic investigations from which to
deduce any numbers. 

	All this would suggest that whatever numbers they had then, and
were submitted to Nuremberg or any other trials, were founded on real
shaky grounds, but nevertheless offered as evidence to hang men. 

	Not until around 1980 did the numbers come to be what they
currently are. The new numbers are founded on the "interpretations" of
deportation records and rail manifestos with the specific criteria
that no eyewitness accounts, commission reports or confessions by
Germans were to be trusted or used in the new figuring. Also
explicitly cited are any court records, which would include
Nuremberg's, which shows that they are recognized as lies.

	Is there anything 'funny' about this 'new' number, as it is
obvious there was with the old one? Well this would involve the
investigation of the records used and the consideration of any
interpreting logic. Will all this ever become available to researchers
who may have suspicions? We can only wait and see.

	The one thing we can conclude as to any shenanigans is that the
'new' numbers are not all that new. They are said to have been arrived
at, starting in 1980 and completed in 1986, showing that the
suspicions for the old numbers was recognized in 1980. Not until the
last three years or so did any formal announcement of the current
revised number take place, leaving a gap of about 12 years between the
time of arriving at the current number and the official announcement.
During this time the sign outside of the Auschwitz camp citing
4,000,000 people were extermianted was allowed to remain at 4,000,000.
Not only this, but the old number of 4 million was allowed to be cited
hundreds, if not thousands of times in the world's medias during this
12 year span without any parties knowledgable to the revision coming
forth to correct the rampant use of the old number.
	 
	So who would have known about the revisions?

	An easy resource to check is almost any public library. Here we
will find in the catalogues numerous books on the Holocaust, most of
which were written from 1980 on. In fact, it is very hard to find any
books on the Holocaust written before that time. Either we assume
there were no books on the Holocaust written before 1980 or that there
were and they have found their way off the shelves.

	We would have to consider the likelyhood that any books written
before the massive revision to the Auschwitz numbers would have
accountings of numbers with the old 4,000,000 number as a part of the
whole accounting. Regardless of whether or not any of the previous
books are available, numerous documentation is available, as to
sources, that allege that a significant number of the old, now deleted
number of 4,000,000 were Jewish. Inspite of what the Simon Wiesnthal
Center claims, that the number of 6,000,000 Jews said to have been
killed during the war was never contigent on the old 4,000,000, the
documented facts, not readily available now in the libraries,
challenges this severely. The numerous older accounts can have it that
>from  2,000,000 to 4,000,000 of the victims at Auschwitz were Jews.
	Perhaps the only book that was written before 1980 that held to a
smaller number was one by Reitlinger, who cited a number close to the
current number. This book is referred to by the defenders of all
things true Holocaust in attempts at drawing attention away from the
20 or 30 other sources that cite significantly higher figures.  
	Six million is the standing figure as to the number of Jews said
to have been exterminated during WW II. This has pretty much been the
figure all along. We would have to recognize that any books written on
the Holocaust before or after 1980 must strive to give the full
account including other camps and any exterminations said to have
taken place in the 'field' so that the culminating figure is
6,000,000. If books are written that claim, say, 2,300,000, 3,000,000
or 3,500,000 Jews were killed at Auschwitz, then any numbers given for
other places must be jostled around so that when it is all put
together the figure ends up at 6,000,000. Thus any books written using
the 1,000,000 figure must do their ciphering considering that, whjich
would throw them into serious conflict with the older accounts.

	So, in 1980 along comes the problem of the massive revision to
the Holocaust root number of Auschwitz, from 4,000,000 down to
1,000,000. Then, also starting around 1980 we have a whole onslaught
of new books that came out with most of them giving accounts that
agree with the new number. The new number that wasn't officially
released until 1993. 

	Is it a fantastic coincidence that the new Auschwitz numbers were
arrived at around 1980 and a whole slue of new books appeared around
the same time? 

	Was it just an oversight that kept the old number of 4,000,000 up
on the sign at Auschwitz and the new current number from being
released at that time it was arrived at?

	And who would have been privy to knowing about all this revision
at the time?

	Putting all the pieces together, it appears a righteous
accomodating grace period was given to the Jews so they would have
time to reorganize Holocaust accounts that would be more in line with
the new figures, and that is what is on the library shelves at this
time.

	A pathetically corrupt state of affairs.


========================================================================
	No wonder the Jews exert so much energy in trying to snuff out
open debate on the truth or falsity of the Holocaust, opting instead
to condemn the whole thing as an act of "hate", "racism", "neo-Nazism"
and/or "anti-Semitism". 
========================================================================


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  1 16:33:40 PDT 1996
Article: 70681 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Twelve Year Grace Period / revised
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 16:51:09 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 18
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>	           The Twelve Year Grace Period
>		In with the new books, away with the old.
>
>	              Random House Dictionary,
> "grace" - "6. favor shown in granting a delay or temporary immunity".
>
>========================================================================

	The 'graces' missing from the Holocaust dependant's intrigues.

	Random House Dictionary:

"grace, 1. elegance or beauty of form, manner, motion, or action. 
2. a pleasing or attractive quality or endowment. 3. favor or good
will."


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  1 18:27:58 PDT 1996
Article: 70696 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Plunder of the Victims, IV
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 12:04:46 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 59
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>
>Report by SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl to Himmler's office, February
>6 1943, listing items plundered from Jewish victims and delivered
>to various Nazi organizations
>[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - 
>Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. V, p. 699-703]
>-----------------------------------------------------------------

	Doesn't say anything about Jews, or the source of whatever.
 
>1. Reich ministry of economics
> 
>Men's old clothing without underwear       97,000 sets
>Women's old clothing without underwear     76,000 sets
>women's silk underwear                     89,000 sets
>                                         Total 34 cars
>Rags -           400 cars, 2,700,000 Kg
>Bed feathers -   130 cars, 270,000 Kg
>Women's hair -   1 car, 3,000 Kg
>Scrap material - 5 cars, 19,000 Kg

	"Scrap metal". Stolen from Jewish victims?
 
>2. Office for Germanization
> 
>Men's clothing:
> 
>Pants -        62,000
>Shirts -       132,000
> .
> .
>Shoes -        31,000 pairs
> 
>Women's clothing:
> 
>Coats -        155,000
>Dresses -      119,000
> .
> .
>Panties -      60,000
>Brassiers -    25,000
>Underwear -    22,000
>Kerchiefs -    85,000
>Shoes -        111,000
> .
> .
>                                               211 cars
>[Many more organizations and items cited]
> 
>                                    Grand Total 825 cars

	Many more? Perhaps if we had a look at all the evidence it might
fall together as something revealing other than what Mr.Keren would
have it imply with what he has taken on himself to post, and what to
omit.
 



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  1 18:27:59 PDT 1996
Article: 70699 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 12:04:14 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 19
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  
>>  	Looks like Giwer has done it again. He has come out and given the
>>  Holocaust Defense League an avenue of diversion from the real problem.
>>  
>>       What? No rabbis?
>>  
>>>>>
>	Since the commandants of the camps were specifically required to list 
>the Christian clergy in their camps (Document NS 3 425, Bundesarchiv Koblenz 
>issued December 31, 1943), why would expect rabbis to be listed?
>
>	Or are you just even stupider than you generally appear?
>
>	--YFE

	 "(Document NS 3 425)" you say? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  1 22:43:39 PDT 1996
Article: 70746 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 03:06:20 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 67
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
>The real bottom line regarding the number of Jews and others murdered 
>by the Nazi war machines, is very simple. No one really knows for 
>certain. Therefore, for the likes of Moran who is nothing more that an 
>anti-Semitic liar, and his motives are far from pure, throwing out a 
>bunch of meaningless numbers which are really guesses by a variety of 
>people, some credible, some not credible, is just Moran's way of 
>casting doubt on the Holocaust per se. Moran is not a historian, he is 
>a bluffer, a proven liar, and will make up anything he wants to suit 
>his immoral purposes. The truth isn't of the slightest interest to 
>this weird person. Pin him down, and he wiggles free (so he thinks). 
>He simply does not know and his goal is to cause others to question 
>the historical proven facts regarding the Holocaust.

	An incredibly scientific anaylsis of Moran's post. Moran is all
washed up. How can Moran even begin to undo this straight forward,
well planned, relevant rebuttal. Bye bye Moran.

>Further more, Moran is beyond feeling any empathy for the millions of 
>innocent people who died at the hands of the Nazis.
>
>Chuck
>
>
>
>Jeffrey wrote:
>> 
>> In article <3247f6d9.3668770@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
>>  writes
>> >
>> >               Behold the lie, tell your friends.
>> >
>> >       For those who are new to investigating whether or not the
>> >Holocaust story is true I present you with this simple introductory
>> >sequence of material. None of it is revisionist, meaning none of it
>> >comes from those who deny the greater part of this Holocaust story. It
>> >is all based on what the pushers of the story give themselves.
>
>
>This is Moran's way of attempting to gain credibility, which is not 
>possible. Once discredited always discredited. 
>
>The fact that some may label Moran as a "neo-Nazi" (there is no such 
>element in this debate.) Or anti-Semitic, which he has admitted, or 
>proven to be, is a perception created and perpetuated by Moran 
>himself.
>
>clips
>
>Chuck Ferree
>
>
>
>> THOUGHTCRIME ARCHIVES http://www.codoh.com/thoughtcrimes/thoughtcrimes.html
>> ADELAIDE INSTITUTE http://www.adam.com.au/~fredadin/adins.html
>> *
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Jeff Roberts
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
>> and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.
>> Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  2 08:17:08 PDT 1996
Article: 70767 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'The strain on the furnaces was colossal'
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 03:18:07 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <3251de9f.11578794@199.0.216.204>
References:  <3241e9bc.4234058@news.pacificnet.net> <51vf4d$bab@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <324451a5.8164545@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <3247ea8f.522336@news.pacificnet.net> <32488f84.18086610@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>>
>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>>>	Remember these were War Crimes Trials.  The War Crime of interest was losing the
>>>>war, sort of a negative crime but certainly punishable by death.  
>
>>>If this particular case examined at a War Crimes Trial, surely you can
>>>tell us which one.
>
>>>[cue the "Jeopardy" theme]
>
>>	Giwer, I think Mr.Morris may have us here. Maybe it wasn't a
>>trial. In that case all one would have to do is maintain the intial
>>critique and just change the references to any trial. Then maybe
>>Mr.Morris would come back and try to deal with it more directly. 
>
>I did deal with the substance of your post. I drew the conclusion that
>you seem to believe that because the Soviets did not ask technical
>questions which would have answered the lame objections of denier
>idiots forty years later the Holocaust must not have happened.

	No, they should have asked them then, in order to see if they
were getting honest accounts, or to get a more thorough picture. It
had nothing to do with peoples questions forty years later. It had to
do with then.
	Well you might get the idea you can do or undo the Holocaust
story with one account, but I wouldn't be so naive. Actually you
probably do think you can confirm the Holocaust story with one
account. 
	 
>My purpose otherwise was to demonstrate, yet once again, Matt Giwer's
>appalling ignorance of the history he pretends to comment upon. And I
>have succeeded yet once again.

Now he's over to Giwer.
 
	He's got you Giwer. This is real relevant information for his
point. Proclaiming himself victor is the part that really solidifies
it all. This is empiricism at it's highest level.

>Apparently his handlers are content to keep him in ignorance,
>satisfied that he sows confusion. The goal is not knowledge but the
>sowing of doubt in order to make people hate Jews in which project he
>is their witting and willing pawn.

	"...sowing a doubt in order to make people hate Jews ..." 
	Better let Giwer handle this one.

> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  2 08:17:09 PDT 1996
Article: 70778 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who, what, sort of when, but no where, exactly.
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 16:47:00 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <32514ac5.1660327@199.0.216.204>
References: <324dcf36.45882642@199.0.216.204> <324e29c5.47038244@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <324fd853.1042201@199.0.216.204> <3250d1fd.32538884@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

Moran:
>>	And then, who will come to know? Those "accepted" for
>>registration.


Morris:
>Do you want to come to the next conference of the Rocky Mountain
>Medieval and Renaissance Association? You can't unless I tell you
>where and when it is. And even if I did tell you, you could only
>attend its sessions if you registered for the conference.

>Or you could write to the RMMRA for registration information (the
>address is in their journal). Equally, you could write to the
>organizers of the medicine and the Holocaust and ask for registration
>information (the address is in the post).

>Tell you what. You write away for the registration information. If
>they refuse you the information, I'll verify with the organizers that
>you did write a polite request for information. Then we will talk
>about how the "revisionists" are barred from attending.

>You may consider it a challenge if you wish, but I do not think you
>are even up to the challenge of writing a simple, intelligible, and
>polite request for information.

>In the meantime, check under the bed for Jews, and have a good night's
>sleep.

	From the point of the topic, "27th Annual Scholars' Conference on
the Holocaust and the Churches" Mr.Morris takes us to the "Rocky
Mountain Medieval and Renaissance Association".

	No wonder he only lasted a few months at his position with the
"Oxford Frances Bacon". A couple of words from him, and the real
intelligence there got hep.

	When he announced he was leaving to take up an assistants job at
the Oxford Frances Bacon under "Au revoir, but not goodbye", I
responded with:

	"Mr. Morris, can you e-mail me the address of this new board
you've been elected to so I can send them some samples of your alt.rev
posts so they will realize what an idiot they have chosen?
	                                                      Thanks 
                                                           Tom Moran"

	The idea that the board would have samples of his alt.revisionism
stuff panicked him into sending a complaint to my mommy (server). He
went completely bananas. He got himself into a real fit. And all I did
was propose sending off his own stuff. Didn't say anything about
adding any commentary. Didn't say anything about including anything
other than his own output. 

	He fears his own stuff, because he knows deep down inside,
subliminally, he's an idiot. 

	And what does he do when he first reappears on alr.revisionism?
He strives to discredit the history of Frances Bacon with 185 lines
under "Bacon, Diogenes, Homer and Voltaire - enemies of Holocaust
tyranny". 

	So much for Mr.Morris. The more he says, the deeper he goes. A
real dimwit.

> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  2 08:17:10 PDT 1996
Article: 70843 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: All Roads Lead to Zero
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 14:04:06 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	From my personal experience in studying the validity of the
Holocaust story, it seems that 99% of whatever the story has to offer
either contradicts itself or something else.
	Be it photograph, eyewitness testimony, document or statement
attributed to the high command; be it from one Holocaust book to
another or websites, contradiction riegns, numbers, methods, places
and accounts.

	Contradiction is the Holocaust story's self denial. 

	  


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  2 10:49:45 PDT 1996
Article: 159648 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <325144e1.152361@199.0.216.204>
Control: cancel <325144e1.152361@199.0.216.204>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 16:45:13 GMT
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From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  2 10:54:20 PDT 1996
Article: 70868 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 14:04:00 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz

	To those who are new to alt.revisionism.
Take note of how 99.99% of the story is focused on Auschwitz. At one
time the Holocaust facts were that Auschwitz was the center for the
extermination of 4 million people. Currently it is somewhere around 1
million. Even, according to one of the Holocaust dependents most cited
authorities, the numbers are more like 600 thousand. Down, down, down
go the numbers.

	Yet there are other camps said to have been the centers for the
extermination of far greater numbers. Majdanek is said to have been a
place where 1.5 million were exterminated. Treblinka 2 million. 

	In addition to this, both Treblinka and Majdanek are said to have
been over run by the Soviets while they were still in operation and
that a "Extraordinary Commission" was installed within a day of the
capture to investigate any crimes whereas Auschwitz is said to have
ceased exterminating people 5 months prior to being over run and that
the Germans had initiated a demolition program to cover up the alleged
exterminations.

	One would think that with the numbers for Treblinka and Majdanek
each being 2 to 3 times that of Auschwitz and that they were over run
while still in full operation and that Auschwitz had destroyed all the
evidence, that the two former camps would be the center of focus to
show that the Holocasut story is true.

	Thus it appears the Holocaust dependents are presenting what we
should expect is the lesser evidence instead of what we should expect
would be the greater evidence.

	Interesting.    


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  2 10:54:21 PDT 1996
Article: 70878 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: U.S. / Israel / Holocaust connection
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 03:03:52 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 13
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	In her book, "One by One by One" Judith Miller, ethnocentrically
insane Jewish writer for the N.Y.Times concludes a review of different
national attitudes on the Holocaust with:

	"Finally the Unified States. The majority of Jewish survivors
came here. They found a democratic, tolerant culture in which they and
their children prospered. Americans are far removed, morally and
geographically, from the scene of the geneocide. While this distance
has enabled many American Jews to confront the Holocaust, for many it
has become an obsession. .... They have a practical stake in keeping
memory of the Holocaust alive, as a way of maintaining American
support for Israel, ..."


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  2 10:54:22 PDT 1996
Article: 70879 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CLOSED FOR REPAIRS
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 03:04:50 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 43
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mgwier@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:14:01 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>
>>	How will the sun set on the Holocaust story? I've often thought
>>about that. I mean, say, how will they go about shuting down all the
>>Holocaust Museums? Just close the doors? Now their certainly not going
>>to put up a sign saying something like, "Due to the discovery that the
>>Holocaust was all a lie, this museum will be closed from here on out.'
>>I would say it will be something more like, 'CLOSED FOR REPAIRS', then
>>never to open again.		 
>
>	Actually they will simply "shift their focus" as the reports of the USHMM
>indicate.  
>
>	From the reports you have to believe in gassing before you go there as it makes
>so few claims related to the traditional lynchpins.
>
>	As previously noted the St. Pete holocaust museum plans to feature things that
>have absolutely no relation to any aspect of any version of the holocaust.
>Rather it will be a purely ethnic jewish museum.  

	Another possible scenario. The Holocaust Museum in Atlanta,
Georgia has two portals on entering. One to the left and another to
the right. One deals with the Holocaust, the other is committed to
Jewish life in America, with it being mainly focused on the "lynching"
of a Jew for murder.

	Hundreds of blacks were probably lynched in the South, but the
Jews can only see the one and only Jew who was hanged.


	            Holocaust final exam

	Question:
	The reason the Jews are so obsessed with bellowing the Holocaust
story is:

	A: So that the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice?

	B: To instill guilt, justify Zionist policies and to extort
money. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  2 13:31:36 PDT 1996
Article: 70917 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 14:03:51 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Its interesting how the extermination camp Madjdanek is said to
have been over run by the Soviets while it was still in operation and
yet there is more focus, energy and Holocaust facts alleged for
Auschwitz, which is said to have stopped it's exterminations 4 to 5
months before the Soviets arrived, and had executed a plan to cover up
the evidence.
	
	Adding to this interest would be the current Holocaust fact that
1,500,000 people are said to have died at Majdanek, 5, 6 or 7 hundred
thousand more than Auschwitz.

	Review of the Holocaust dependents record for this focus on
Auschwitz might reveal a ratio of a hundred to one, maybe a thousand
to one, compared to any mention of Majdanek. Seems it should be the
other way around.

	Holocaust accounting defies the logical and probable.
 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  2 16:20:29 PDT 1996
Article: 70952 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Extraordinary Absence
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 14:03:11 GMT
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	As the Holocaust facts and the more reliable non-Holocaust facts
have it, the Soviets set up investigating commissions to document the
crimes of the Germans in extermination camps. As text in the book
"Auschwitz: A History in Photographs" puts it, "The day after the
liberation, a special Soviet commission began to investigate the
crimes committed there and gather documentary evidence".

	At the heading of another Holocaust story account, presented in
Nizkor files, "FTP > camps > maidenek > maidenek .004", the copy of
the report is titled, "THE POLISH-SOVIET EXTRAORDINARY COMMISSION FOR
THE INVESTIGATING THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE GERMANS IN THE MAJDANEK
EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN".

	From this we might expect the Soviets did similar investigations
at other camps, and we might think any reports fell under the title of
"The Polish/Soviet Extraordinary Commission for Investigating the
Crimes Committed by the Germans" with a further identification
associated with the particular camp being reported on as with the
above.

	We recognize that the two reports mentioned both state the
Commissions were there at the time of liberation.

	We have to recognize they had opportunity for timely
investigation. We would expect that photography would be the number
one method of documentation, with any forensic test like chemical
analysis as another and archeological reconstruction as another as to
any ruins.

	One should think that any reports from these "Extraordinary
Commission(s)" would be valuable evidence for the truth of the
Holocaust story. 

	For some reason the Holocaust promotional network does not employ
these documents in their extensive onslaught of promoting the story.
Very little reference is made towards them in Holocaust books and the
first time I ever saw one with any actual report and not just referred
to, was in Nizkor files.

	In fact this particular document is one said to have been found
in the Hoover War Library, and is said to be in a 4 inch by 6 inch
format, which we might think is some kind of pamphlet. It refers to
itself as a "communique".

	When studying the validity of the Holocaust it soon becomes
evident that for the very most part the story is founded on eyewitness
testimony, with very little reference to any forensic studies. 

	There are many problems and questions with the report by the
Polish/Soviet Commission. Seems everything in it can raise a question
about something else. This one is dated 1944, yet it refers to
findings at Auschwitz which wasn't taken by the Soviets until 1945.

	The report also utilizes eyewitness testimony almost exclusively
compared to any physical forensic studies it says the Commission made.
A number of times the report will allude to some forensic study and
then confirm and expand on it with eyewitness testimony.
     The testimonies in this report all have something in common in
that they all give isolated exact dates for various incidents that
change little except the numbers, with not one of them able to give a
chronicle of the camp over an extended period of time.

	Just for a quick sampler of the nature of the related eyewitness
testimonies found on just two pages but exemplifying the rest in the
27 page "communique":

	 "The witness Zelent quoted the case of the asphyxiation by
means of gas of eighty-seven Poles on March 15, 1944.

        Another witness, Jan Wolski, a Pole, formerly a prisoner at
the camp, testified to the wholesale asphyxiation of people with gas.
        "In October 1942," he stated, "a large number of women and
children were brought to the camp.  The healthy ones were picked out
for work, ..."

In March l943, another two hundred and fifty women and children were
exterminated in the same chamber ... On May 16, or 17, 1943, one
hundred and fifty-eight children of ages ranging from two to ten were
brought to the camp in motor trucks... In June 1943, the camp
administration collected all the sick prisoners of war and civilian
prisoners ...

        Evidence concerning the wholesale asphyxiation of people by
means of gases was given at the meeting of the Commission by German SS
men who had served in the camp.

        Rottenfuhrer SS Hensche stated that on September 15, 1942,
three hundred and fifty persons including women and children, were put
to death in the gas chambers.

        Oberscharfuehrer SS Terner informed the Commission of the case
which occurred on October 16, 1943, of the asphyxiation in gas
chambers of five hundred persons, including many women and children.
        The selection of people to be put to death by asphyxiation was
systematically made by the German camp doctors Blanke and Rindfleisch.

        The aforesaid Ternes stated:
        "In the evening of October 21, 1943, camp doctor
Untersturmfuehrer SS Rindfleisch told me that day three hundred
children of ages ranging from three to ten were asphyxiated in the gas
chamber with the substance 'Cyklon'."

        German prisoner of war, Rottensfuehrer SS Theodor Schollen,
who served in the camp, stated:
        "I often saw this machine with trailers going to and fro
between the gas chambers and the crematorium.  It came from the gas
chamber loaded with corpses and went back empty."

	The most ridiculous testimony is one given by a Polish prisoner
that claims:
	"On November 3, 1943, eighteen thousand four hundred persons
were shot in the camp.  Of these eight thousand four hundred were camp
prisoners and ten thousand were people who had been brought here from
the city and from other camps.  Three days before this wholesale
shooting, large trenches were dug within the precincts of the camp,
behind the crematorium.  The shooting began in the morning and ended
late at night.  The people were stripped naked.  The SS men led them
to the trenches in groups of fifty and one hundred, compelled them to
lie face downwards in the bottom of the trench and shot them with
automatic rifles.  On top of the corpses another row of living persons
was laid and these were also shot.  This went on until the trench was
filled.  The corpses were then covered with a thin layer of earth.
Two or three days later the bodies were disinterred and burnt in the
crematorium and on bonfires."
	In order to drown the shrieks of the victims during the
shooting, and also the sound of the firing, the Germans installed
loudspeakers near the crematorium and in different parts of the camp,
and all day long these loudspeakers blared forth jazz music.
        This wholesale shooting became widely known among the
inhabitants of Lublin."

	Another common denominator between testimonies is the non-common
denominator of none of them collaborating another. They all have their
own little details.

	Holocaust dependents might argue that these testimonies are only
extracts of more complete testimony, yet will we ever have access to
the full record? Is there a full record? 


	To get an idea of how ridiculous the technical studies were, we
can take note of, "The Committee of Technical Experts which carefully
examined construction of the furnaces found as follows:"
	"The furnaces were intended for the purpose of incinerating
corpses and were calculated to work continuously. Each furnace was
capable of holding four corpses at a time if the extremities were cut
off. The time to incinerate four corpses was fifteen minutes, which
working day and night, made it possible to incinerate one thousand
nine hundred and twenty corpses in twenty four hours. Judging by the
large quantity of bones discovered in all parts of the camp (in pits,
vegetable plots and under manure heaps), the Committee of Experts is
of the opinion that bones were removed from the furnace before the
time necessary for their complete incineration had expired, as a
consequence of the which the number of corpses incinerated in the
twenty four hours was far larger than one thousand nine hundred and
twenty." 

	The report states there were 5 furnaces installed at Majdanek.
Five times 16 = 80, the number of corpses that could be cremated in
each furnace, 80 times 24 hours = 1920. We have to recognize this
would mean that whatever remains were left in the chambers when
unloading were taken out and immediately new chopped up corpses were
put in, with no cool down time whatsoever and the mathematics allowing
no time for the process. The report says that the remains were taken
out before the process took the corpses to ashes, and says this would
make it possible to cremate a "far larger" number than the 1920. In
this case we can't make a exact calculation because of the indefinite
"far larger". Sounds pretty significant. We start off with the
original figure 1920 so maybe conservatively we might say 200 more
would constitute "far larger".
	Whatever the figure, the more "far larger" the more it would
necessitate a faster cremation rate, even to the charred stage, which
would require each 15 minute load to be even shorter, and the 15
minute claim is ridiculous enough, even for burning bodies part way.
We don't want to forget we are talking about four bodies for each
load. We have to recognize the physics of time also. It would not be
possible, using non-Holocaust physics, to go from one load to another

without a time period that would have to be accounted for. This would
include, opening the doors to the furnaces, removing whatever remains
there were under the conditions of the radiating inferno of heat and
the introduction of new bodies. What with the "far larger" number
reducing the time of 15 minutes for each four bodies and the unloading
of remains and introduction of new ones, the time might be more like
ten minutes cremation time per load. 
	Expert testimony today states that it takes from 1 1/2 to 2 hours
to cremate just one body to ashes. 	
	
	So here we have a sampling of the this 27 page, 4" by 6"
"communique", that someone found in the Hoover War Library after they
"came across" a reference to it.

	We can accept as fact that there were Extraordinary Commissions
performed by the Soviet and Polish governments. From this we should
assume the full record was archived someplace. We should also assume
the records should contain massive confirmations for the truth of the
Holocaust story, at least from the view point of the Holocaust
dependents.
     From this we should ask, if these findings of the Commissions,
that were created from day one of liberation of camps, some of them
actually overtaking the camps while they were fully intact and should
have the most hardy record of mass extermination, why doesn't the
Holocaust promotional network, which has put extensive energy into
selling the story, utilize the findings of these Extraordinary
Commissions as part of the sales package?   	
 
	The reason should be pretty clear from what we can deduce from
this report. Because they are so utterly absurd, even more absurd than
the utterly absurd evidence readily given by the Holocaust dependents
in their publications at this time.

	Will anyone ever have access to checking out the full reports of
these Extraordinary Commissions? The full particulars of the forensic
studies and eyewitness testimonies? Will the Holocaust promotional
network ever present the full particulars to the Extraordinary
Commissions?

	No.   		  


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  2 16:20:30 PDT 1996
Article: 70959 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!voskovec.radio.cz!nntp.zit.th-darmstadt.de!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Demolition of Auschwitz evidence?
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 14:03:07 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <32527619.2343924@199.0.216.204>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	The Holocaust story has it that the Germans systematically
entered into a demolition phase of various crematoriums to cover up
the alleged Holocaust crimes.

	The gassings are said to have ceased in late summer or early fall
1944.

	The only remaining photograph, today, as evidence of this alleged
program is a picture of some collapsed concrete, said to have been
Crema II. This is the only photo presented by the Holocaust
promotional network.

	Yet even the Holocaust story has it that the Germans were engaged
in a general dismantling program of the camp.

	In an Allied aerial photo of the camp, 1/14/45 we can see that
parts of the camp are missing when compared to other Allied aerial
photos.

	A good part of Monowitz (industrial sector) are missing, and
about 8 barracks in the women's camp are either missing or in some
other state than the rest.

	An arrow in the photo points to an empty area where the arrow
caption states "Gas Chamber IV, Destroyed 7 OCT 1944".

	Yet Cremas II, III and V are shown to be intact 1/14/45.

	This would be just days before the Soviet advance would reach the
camp.

	The record of the war would show that Germans would have had to
recognize the inevitable over run by the Allied forces by the date
1/14/45 and even months before that.

	Holocaust facts, and perhaps non-Holocaust facts, have it that
the Germans began to evacuate the camp for the most part weeks before
1/14/45. This would support the notion the Germans had recognized the
inevitable defeat and over running by the advancing Soviet forces.   


	So why hadn't the Germans dismantled the Cremas II, III and V by
1/14/45?

	Why would the Germans have spent so much time on dismantling of
the other sites instead of focusing on the alleged Cremas?

	Considering how the Soviets had set up a Extraordinary Commission
for the study of war crimes from day one of entering the camps, why
did the Soviets not take photos of the alleged Cremas, even in their
razed state? Certainly the Germans would not have had time to clear
the area of all traces. 

	So why are the alleged Cremas shown to be still existing on
1/14/45 in an Allied aerial photo, and why hadn't the Germans razed
them way before knowing that defeat was imminent,  and why didn't the
Soviets take any photographs or present detailed forensic reports
about what was or said to have been while they had the chance of
timely investigation?

	Why?  Because the buildings shown in the Allied aerial photograph
of 1/14/45 weren't Cremas for the mass extermination of human beings,
that's why.	

	 

	 

	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  2 16:20:30 PDT 1996
Article: 70964 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news.akorn.net!news.his.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 03:16:25 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <3251dc2e.10954242@199.0.216.204>
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	This is bad news. Here all along I thought this Jeff character
was a revisionist type and here he has highlighted and recapped all
the most vital, relevant and empirically founded points made against
the article. 


>Jeffrey  recaps:
>***
>outright lies, 
>malicious distortions, 
>propensity for propaganda, 
>rampant anti-Semitism,  
>his delusional state of mind, ....
>lying anti-Semite who holds wacko beliefs, 
>is intellectually depraved, 
>hasn't the slightest clue regarding Supreme Court decisions, 
>or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office?"
>-Mark Van Alstine
>***
>What's this about Moron's daughter-in-law?  Inquiring minds want to
>know.  
>Afterall, I'd have put money on the notion that Tommy was impotent.
>- Allan Matthews
>***
>I believe I read somewhere that Moron's daughter-in-law is Jewish. 
>She has my sincere sympathies, 
>as does Moron's son, 
>and anyone else who has had the misfortune to make his acquaintance.
>- Gord McFee

	

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  2 19:29:11 PDT 1996
Article: 70988 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Haphazard state of affairs
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 14:04:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	It seems the Holocaust story has it that the Germans had built a
gassing facility at Belzec "extermination camp" that had six chamber
rooms, where there was an entrance to each one off a central passage
way and each room had large double doors on the opposite side leading
outside for unloading the bodies. Now this doesn't seem such a bad
design, at least when compared to what they came to build at
Auschwitz, which the first two were built underground making it
necessary to carry the thousands of bodies up the stairs and through a
couple of door ways.
	At Belzec all the killing was done by pumping carbon monoxide
into the chambers, which was taken from a diesel engine, a pretty
simple straight fore ward operation, at least compared to the
Auschwitz method where they opted for pellets of fumigant which
necessitated troublesome introduction systems and recovery of only
partially expended pellets.

	Why Auschwitz didn't go for the well proven, by Holocaust
accounts, method of extermination by carbon monoxide said to have been
used at other camps to kill millions of people is a wonder.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct  3 12:06:11 PDT 1996
Article: 71406 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 14:02:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <3253c766.138026@199.0.216.204>
References: <32317319.1073014@news.pacificnet.net> <323ac512.4335230@news.pacificnet.net> <51he81$6h2@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <323d5938.1190499@news.pacificnet.net> <51k2vk$8hk@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <323ff6d5.491578@news.pacificnet.net> <32400B44.1CFB@itsa.ucsf.edu> <3240c073.44984343@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>Brian Harmon  wrote:

Mr.Green had ask, in an attempted bluff:
>>> >Perhaps Mr. Moran can explain the process by which Prussian blue is
>>> >formed.  Unfortunately, his hero Rudolf failed to do so.

Moran replyed: 
>>>         CN compound combines with iron. Now what?

Mr.Harmon jumping in: (Mr.Green never came back with an answer to the
"Now what?")
>>If you said this on an exam, i'd flunk you.

>>There's a lot more to it than that, tom.

Moran replyed:
>	Should we keep it on the valance level or should we take it all
>the way down to the chromodynamics behind that? Once we get past that,
>are you going to have some relevance? 

	And then, no more Mr.Harmon.
	
	No more Mr.Harmon and no more Mr.Green. This is because they
tried to bluff. They tried their little thing, but couldn't meet the
challenge of what relevance their little expressions of intelletuality
would have. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct  3 12:06:12 PDT 1996
Article: 71407 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust dependants methodology
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 14:03:09 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <3253c76c.144233@199.0.216.204>
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	Moran had posted "Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth" with
Holocaust dependants trying to get away with name calling, tangents,
gasping extended commentary and the introduction of irrelavant
questions, which were nothing more than attempts at bluffing.

Mr.Green had ask, in an attempted bluff:
>>> >Perhaps Mr. Moran can explain the process by which Prussian blue is
>>> >formed.  Unfortunately, his hero Rudolf failed to do so.

Moran replyed: 
>>>         CN compound combines with iron. Now what?

Mr.Green never came back with an answer to the "Now what?", but
Mr.Harmon jumped in to try his pair of deuces:
>>If you said this on an exam, i'd flunk you.

>>There's a lot more to it than that, tom.

Moran replyed:
>	Should we keep it on the valance level or should we take it all
>the way down to the chromodynamics behind that? Once we get past that,
>are you going to have some relevance? 

	And then - no more Mr.Harmon.
	
	No more Mr.Harmon and no more Mr.Green. This is because they
tried to bluff. They tried their little thing, but couldn't meet the
challenge of what relevance their little expressions of intelletuality
would have had. They tried to flim flam the reader into thinking they
were high minded chemists and this should support whatever else they
tried during the exchange.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct  3 12:06:13 PDT 1996
Article: 71408 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Mr."Mc Fee"
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 14:01:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <3253c73c.96118@199.0.216.204>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Gee Rich, I agree is wasn't one of the best, but gimme a break.
At least I spelled the name Moron with 2 o's.  That should spare the
Moran with a brain.

Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct  3 12:06:13 PDT 1996
Article: 71409 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp-oslo.UNINETT.no!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shhh! Don't mention it
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 14:01:59 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <3253c74b.111113@199.0.216.204>
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: 
>: 	How many people would think that the main gas said to have been
>: used for extermination, the gas that is at the center of the Auschwitz
>: story, was, in Holocaust reality, pellets made for fumigation
>: purposes.
>
>Um...anybody who's ever read a single book on the topic?
>
>Bill

	How many is "anybody"?

	Try fitting it in with this part of the post:

	"It's 'funny' that of all the talk about the Holocaust and
Auschwitz, which appears in myriads in and on our medias, rarely are
any details discussed."


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct  3 12:38:52 PDT 1996
Article: 95166 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp-oslo.UNINETT.no!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics
Subject: Re: Evil Palestinians
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 14:03:22 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <3253c7a0.196192@199.0.216.204>
References: <32526d55.100018@199.0.216.204>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:71410 alt.conspiracy:95166

tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>	                  N.Y.Times, Oct. 2, 1996
>                          (Full page ad)
>
>                              "VIOLENCE"
>
>	      	     IN OSLO, THE PLO FINALLY ADDED
>               'NON' IN FRONT OF 'VIOLENCE' TO GET PEACE 	
>
>				IN ISRAEL, THE PLO JUST REMOVED IT
>					TO TRY TO GET THEIR WAY
>
>The recent deadly violence in the West Bank and Gaza started when the
>Palestinians turned to rock throwing and guns to resolve a dispute.
>
>But it really started with the Palestinian Authority spreading
>inflammatory disinformation. Both these acts were in direct opposition
>to the principles of the Oslo peace accord.

	This ad is aimed at the general reader - Americans.
 
     	 'OUR ENEMIES ARE YOUR ENEMIES, AMERICA.'	   	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct  3 14:08:02 PDT 1996
Article: 71411 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Mr."Mc Fee"
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 14:02:15 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <3253c759.125338@199.0.216.204>
References: <323e9986.503827@news.pacificnet.net> <324fd55b.281765@199.0.216.204> <52rfka$aen@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
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rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>	It is good to see that Giwer has sunk so far into the abyss that
>>about his only ally left is Moron.
>>
>>Gord McFee
>>I'll write no line before its time
>
>No, Tom, I don't think this was among the best. Giwer is still supported
>by Ron Schoedel as well, and he capitalized your name. It should be left
>in lowercase to avoid confusing you with that sane person on Prodigy.
>
>-rich
	Should this be taken as your endorsement for this one "McFee"
item here, is it for all of them?


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct  3 14:08:02 PDT 1996
Article: 71412 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The 3,000,000 That Never Were
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 14:02:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <3253c75d.129623@199.0.216.204>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	 Argumentum ad ignorantum:
     "An argument purporting to demonstrate a point or to persuade
people, which avails itself of facts and reasons the falsity or
inadequacy of which is not readily discerned;(or available for
validation), a misleading argument used in reliance on peoples
ignorance", (or inability to access any references cited as showing
proof) such as most of the Holocaust evidence.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct  3 14:08:03 PDT 1996
Article: 71414 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp-oslo.UNINETT.no!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran/Nizkor Website, McVay shrinks away
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 14:03:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <3253c7ad.209154@199.0.216.204>
References: <3245f79a.3697276@news.pacificnet.net> <3249983c.16178598@news.pacificnet.net> <52ent7$28k@orion.cybercom.net> <52evdh$l19@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <324cab44.2543961@news.pacificnet.net> <52uf8u$mr2@newshub.atmnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm8-18.pacificnet.net
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frice@stbbs.com (Fredric L. Rice) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	"Second hand". What could that be? Someone e-mailed him to alert
>>him? He was just browsing and ... no that wouldn't be it since his
>>auto kill file would have ... but maybe he was looking at someone else
>>computer and he just happened to see it. Maybe a little bird told him.
>
>Here, let me clue you, newbie pie.

	"Newbie pie"?


>The most obvious methodology for recieving a post or segments of a
>post second hand is by reviewing a post which replies to another
>inwhich some of the text being replied to is quoted.
>
>Now don't you feel like the silly?

	I ya, I ya, I'm not sure. What did you say? 

>>	The fact is, McVay wakes up everyday in cold sweats wondering
>>what Moran has put out here. Sometimes he wakes up in the middle of
>>the night screaming, having had a dream Moran had posted another one
>>of his devastating exposes of how goofy Nizkor is. 
>
>Do you have any evidence for these accusations?  Any at all?  If
>so, you may begin posting it now.

	Why don't you ask McVay himself if it's true?

>---------------------------------
>"de omnibus dubitandum"          | That is not dead which can eternal lie,
>All is to be doubted - Descartes | And with strange eons even death may die
>---------------------------------
>The Skeptic Tank: http://www.stbbs.com/personal/frice/index.htm
>The Skeptic Tank direct:  (818) 335-9601  (FidoNet 1:218/890.0)
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct  3 14:08:04 PDT 1996
Article: 71415 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: U.S. / Israel / Holocaust connection
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 14:03:48 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 19
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>	In her book, "One by One by One" Judith Miller, ethnocentrically
>insane Jewish writer for the N.Y.Times concludes a review of different
>national attitudes on the Holocaust with:
>
>	"Finally the Unified States. The majority of Jewish survivors
>came here. They found a democratic, tolerant culture in which they and
>their children prospered. Americans are far removed, morally and
>geographically, from the scene of the geneocide. While this distance
>has enabled many American Jews to confront the Holocaust, for many it
>has become an obsession. .... They have a practical stake in keeping
>memory of the Holocaust alive, as a way of maintaining American
>support for Israel, ..."

	Actually it is not confined to survivors who are so fanatical to
have U.S. "support". It involves the entire community, less one or two
maybe.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct  3 14:08:05 PDT 1996
Article: 71416 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who, what, sort of when, but no where, exactly.
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 14:04:10 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>	From the point of the topic, "27th Annual Scholars' Conference on
>>the Holocaust and the Churches" Mr.Morris takes us to the "Rocky
>>Mountain Medieval and Renaissance Association".
>
>I provided you with an example of a conference that illustrates both
>that there is nothing unusual about the registration procedures for
>the Holocaust conference and how might register for it. But you would
>rather assert that "revisionists" are barred from the conference than
>find out if your assertion is true. Fine. If you would rather lie
>because you don't know how to write a letter, I can't help you.
>
>>	No wonder he only lasted a few months at his position with the
>>"Oxford Frances Bacon". A couple of words from him, and the real
>>intelligence there got hep.
>
>What are you talking about? I haven't lost any position.
>
>>	When he announced he was leaving to take up an assistants job at
>>the Oxford Frances Bacon under "Au revoir, but not goodbye", I
>>responded with:
>
>[a threat to harass me through my employer]
>
>What I left for, and as Mr. Moral has been repeatedly told, was a
>research trip. Apparently he believes that going on a research trip
>means that you can never come back. Apparently he believes that
>"Frances [sic] Bacon" was a woman. It can hardly be meaningful to be
>called an "idiot" by such a person:
>
>>	He fears his own stuff, because he knows deep down inside,
>>subliminally, he's an idiot. 
>
>>	And what does he do when he first reappears on alr.revisionism?
>>He strives to discredit the history of Frances Bacon with 185 lines
>>under "Bacon, Diogenes, Homer and Voltaire - enemies of Holocaust
>>tyranny". 
>
>It is noted that you have yet to deal with the substantive issues
>raised by the post and that you have not offered the least argument
>that I was incorrect in my assessment of Bacon.
>
>In fact, all that you seem capable of offering are some feeble insults
>and the renewal of the threat to harass me through my employer.
>
>>	So much for Mr.Morris. The more he says, the deeper he goes.
>
>Tiddley-pom.
>
>> A real dimwit.
>
>Okay. If you say so, I must be a dimwit.

	Excuse me for calling you a "dimwit". Usually I don't give
negative titles. I may imply them, but rarely actually dub. Apologies.

	As to Frances Bacon and this post, you had your say, I had mine.
There they stand. 
	
	But I would like to ask you a question. Why are you afraid of
your own stuff?

>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct  3 14:08:05 PDT 1996
Article: 71417 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Twelve Year Grace Period / revised
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 14:08:43 GMT
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Brian Harmon  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>>                    The Twelve Year Grace Period
>>                 In with the new books, away with the old.
>> 
>>                       Random House Dictionary,
>>  "grace" - "6. favor shown in granting a delay or temporary immunity".
>> 
>> ========================================================================
>> 
>>         According to some accounts, the reason the previous numbers of
>> those said to have been exterminated at Auschwitz was 3 million higher
>> than the current 1 million is because the Soviets mis-calculated the
>> numbers of people that could be cremated in the ovens.
>> 
>>         How the Soviets went about this ciphering that resulted in a 300
>> percent over estimate is not detailed in Holocaust accounts.
>
>Uh, yes it is, Tommy.
>
>Your failure to _research_ this topic is not the rest of the 
>world's problem.
>
>Why don't you go to your library and check out the following book:
>
>_Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_. Washington D.C and 
>Bloomington: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and Indiana
>University Press, 1994. 
>
>And check out pages 61-65.  You'll find them very illuminating.
>
>You'll find that this book discusses exactly how the Soviet Commission
>arrived at their figures.

	Lets see how Mr.Harmon goes about confirming this "exactly".

>You've been beaten about the head on this issue before, by the way.
>In fact, Mark Van Alstine discussed this back in June with you.
>
>I take it you didn't read it then?
>
>take a peek at: 
>
>In case you're webless, i'll include a snippet here:
>
>===========
>Message-ID: 
>
>Indeed. The first estimate, and the one most cited by Holocaust deniers as
>"proof" that death toll at Auschwitz has been significantly revised
>downwards,  was made on May 8, 1945, by the Soviet Extraordinary State
>Commission. The Soviet estimate, however, was made purely on the base of
>the following calculus involving the estimated daily incineration capacity
>and the number of days the Kremas were in operation (_Anatomy_, pp.61,
>65):
>
>Krema I ....... 300 bodies per day; 720 days.
>Krema II .... 3,000 bodies per day; 570 days.
>Krema III ... 3,000 bodies per day; 540 days.
>Krema IV .... 1,500 bodies per day, 510 days.
>Krema V ..... 1,500 bodies per day, 540 days.
>
>By multiplying the number of the daily incineration capacity of bodies per
>day by the number of days, for each Krema, a total of 5.121 million deaths
>was obtained. Then assuming the Kremas were used at 4/5 their capacity the
>death toll of 4.097 million was obtained. 
>==========

	Right about now Mr.Harmon had to take a wiff on the oxygen tank
he keeps around when he gets out of breath typing his anxieties.

>Now, it's clear that this is a bogus calculation, as the Soviet commission
>did not know if the Kremas were used to 4/5 capacity, or if they were used 
>on every day while they were 'in operation.'

	Well here it seems Mr.Harmon is saying the only thing that makes
the Soviet mathematics bogus is on assumption of time.

>A much more sound calculation is to total the number of prisoners
>sent to the camp minus all those transferred out and liberated and use
>that as an estimate of your death toll.

>As it turns out, this is what Dr. Piper of the Auschwitz state museum
>did to total up the death toll at Auschwitz, as did Hilberg in his book
>_The Destruction of the European Jews._

	Here we are to think it was a Jew who aimed to set the story
straight, and it wasn't revisionist who forced the change.

>Piper has a chapter in _The Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_, you
>should read that while you have the book out of the library.  He discusses
>his calculations and the calculations of other scholars in that chapter.

	He also explicitly says in the same chapter that no eyewitness
accounts, Jewish or German, court records (including Nuremberg) are to
be used, that they are full of discrepancies and falsities. He also
makes a point of singling out "scholarly publications". Those before
1980 for the most part we assume. As far as any Hilberg contribution,
or the general interpretational procedure, I'll leave that up to
others in Europe that more ready access to the process than myself. 
	The current number is only the 'current' number. Down the road it
will probably be whatever the German logs say. I'd say the standard
method was in line with what I posted under "Scientific Assumptions
Admissible".

>>         The eye witness accounts given immediately at the time of the
>> liberation of the camps were by a couple of Jewish inmates. 
>
>Have you bothered to research this? 
>
>Which inmates are these?

	A righteous account appears out here at times. I'll make sure I
include it with the repost. Basically it is the publications of Jewish
organizations, news releases by the same, that appeared in major
medias and are a matter of record.
	I'll do the same with the two or three Jewish inmates. I believe
one of them was Schlomo Dragon.

>> The most
>> cited eyewitness authority for the numbers came from Rudolph Ho'ss
>> former Auschwitz camp commodant and still a star witness for the [...]
>
>....who was not a Jewish inmate, which looks odd seeing as how you
>just claimed that the eyewitness accounts were given by 'a couple
>of Jewish inmates'

	Does it say, even imply remotely Ho'ss was Jewish? In fact it
identifies him as the camp commandant.

>> Holocaust story who said there were up to 3 million people killed at
>> the camp. We have to recognize that since the current number is 2
>> million less than what the star Holocaust witness said, then either
>> the current number is wrong or the star witness was wrong, or lying.
>
>You are lying by omission. In his memoirs, Hoess said that the numbers were
>clearly too high, and that they were somewhere around 1.1 million.

	In his memoirs? How about in his testimony? Who's the deceiver
here? Which one do you chose. Of course at this time you will
recognize he is mistaken, but when it comes to his other testimony he
gave you will try to sell it as true. Such as his account of the
Zyklon B. If he was a free man, living outside the area, even there
undergoing a fair trial, without being tortured his testimony and
memoirs would have been a whole lot different.  

>Hoess stated that those numbers were given to him by Eichmann,
>and that he no longer believed those figures.

	Did he say this at Nuremberg? Did he say he was giving second
party testimony? Did the court ask? Did they even care?
 
>When Hoess testified in his trial, he was using innaccurate figures 
>given to him by Eichmann.


>>         The other pre end of war accounts, which we may consider to be
>> the seed rumors that set the atmosphere for the subsequent gross
>> exaggerations, can be traced to those originating and spread from
>> Jewish organizations.
>
>What rumors, tommy?

	Those ones referred to before. The ones that will be accounted
for in the repost.

>You haven't even demonstrated the most superficial knowledge 
>of the subject, so what makes you qualified to tell if something
>is a rumor?
>
>[..]
>
>>         The one thing we can conclude as to any shenanigans is that the
>> 'new' numbers are not all that new. They are said to have been arrived
>> at, starting in 1980 and completed in 1986, showing that the
>> suspicions for the old numbers was recognized in 1980. Not until the
>> last three years or so did any formal announcement of the current
>> revised number take place, leaving a gap of about 12 years between the
>> time of arriving at the current number and the official announcement.
>> During this time the sign outside of the Auschwitz camp citing
>> 4,000,000 people were extermianted was allowed to remain at 4,000,000.
>> Not only this, but the old number of 4 million was allowed to be cited
>> hundreds, if not thousands of times in the world's medias during this
>> 12 year span without any parties knowledgable to the revision coming
>> forth to correct the rampant use of the old number.
>
>Blah blah blah.  Bilge and filth, tommy.

	"Blah blah blah."? Right about then he must have punched his key
board.


>Hilberg wrote as early as 1961 that the Auschwitz death toll was 
>about 1 million in his book "The Destruction of the European Jews"
>
>Reitlinger called the soviet 4 million figure 'ludicrous' as early
>as 1958, and estimated the auschwitz death toll at about 800,000
>to 900,000.
>
>You're dreaming if you think that the 'accepted version' of history
>insisted that four million died at auschwitz until a short while ago.

	The Auschwitz Museum entrance carried a sign saying 4,000,000
died there up until just a few years ago. Your the one that's
'dreaming', lying. 

>>         An easy resource to check is almost any public library. Here we
>> will find in the catalogues numerous books on the Holocaust, most of
>> which were written from 1980 on. In fact, it is very hard to find any
>> books on the Holocaust written before that time. Either we assume
>> there were no books on the Holocaust written before 1980 or that there
>> were and they have found their way off the shelves.
>
>Or perhaps all pre-1980 books have been moved to storage, and you
>need to talk to the circulation desk about accessing them.
>
>It's not that uncommon, tommy.  My college moved all pre-1965 books
>to a different building, and they were filed separately.

	Whatever. Nevertheless, I know of three libraries that have books
almost totally from 1980 on. A coincidence you can think.

>>         We would have to consider the likelyhood that any books written
>> before the massive revision to the Auschwitz numbers would have
>> accountings of numbers with the old 4,000,000 number as a part of the
>> whole accounting. Regardless of whether or not any of the previous
>> books are available, numerous documentation is available, as to
>> sources, that allege that a significant number of the old, now deleted
>> number of 4,000,000 were Jewish. 
>
>And this documentation is where? the twilight zone?

	At a loss for even a little attempt?

>If it exists, cite it or post it.
>
>> Inspite of what the Simon Wiesnthal
>> Center claims, that the number of 6,000,000 Jews said to have been
>> killed during the war was never contigent on the old 4,000,000, the
>> documented facts, not readily available now in the libraries,
>> challenges this severely. The numerous older accounts can have it that
>> from 2,000,000 to 4,000,000 of the victims at Auschwitz were Jews.
>
>Bullshit. list them.

	"Behold the lie", on the service right now. Maybe twenty or
thirty examples. In time many more will be added.
>
>
>>        Perhaps the only book that was written before 1980 that held to a
>> smaller number was one by Reitlinger, who cited a number close to the
>> current number. This book is referred to by the defenders of all
>> things true Holocaust in attempts at drawing attention away from the
>> 20 or 30 other sources that cite significantly higher figures.
>
>Wrong.
>
>Here are five other books, all published before 1980, that
>give lower death tolls:
>
>Billig, Joseph. Les camps de concentration dans l'economie du Reich 
>hitlerien. Paris: Presses universitaires de France, 1973. pp 101-102. 
>(2 million) 
>
>Encyclopedia Judaica, Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1974. p 855. 
>(1 to 2.5 million) 
>
>Hilberg, Raul. The Destruction of the European Jews. Chicago: Quadrangle 
>Books, 1961, 572. (1 million)
>
>Kamenetksy, Ihor. Secret Nazi Plans for Eastern Europe. New Haven: 
>College and University Press, 1961. p174 (About 2.5 milion) 
>
>Polaikov, Leon. Harvest of Hate Syracuse: Syracuse University Press, 
>1956, 202. (2.3 million)

	I'll check later to see if he took these off the list of the
other twenty or thirty under "Behold the lie".

>> If books are written that claim, say, 2,300,000, 3,000,000
>> or 3,500,000 Jews were killed at Auschwitz, then any numbers given for
>> other places must be jostled around so that when it is all put
>> together the figure ends up at 6,000,000. Thus any books written using
>> the 1,000,000 figure must do their ciphering considering that, whjich
>> would throw them into serious conflict with the older accounts.
>
>Why? You're assuming that the 6,000,000 figure was arrived
>at by adding up the death tolls of all the extermination camps.

	Your the one using the word "assuming". 

	If one book uses figures that say 3,000,000 Jews died at
Auschwitz, then they must have figures for other camps and the "field"
that will add up to 6,000,000. If another book uses a figure of
1,000,000 then all the rest, or at the least, most of the rest of the
accounts have to be different from the accounts that revolve around
the 3,000,000, 2,000,000, 2,500,000, 4,000,000, 1,500,000 or whatever.


>>         Is it a fantastic coincidence that the new Auschwitz numbers were
>> arrived at around 1980 and a whole slue of new books appeared around
>> the same time?
>
>Isn't it a fantastic coincidence that you provide no evidence
>for this assertion?

	Its all right there, available for anyone to check.

>I suspect that you can't use the library effectively.
>
>This issue is discussed in more depth at:
>
>http://nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/4-million-variant-01
>
>-- 
>Brian Harmon 
>====================================
>"Right on, jew traitor." -- Matt Giwer,
>displaying his commitment to rational debate.
><52kj3e$69m@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct  3 14:08:07 PDT 1996
Article: 71433 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demolition of Auschwitz evidence?
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 15:04:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 42
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Considering how the Soviets had set up a Extraordinary Commission
># for the study of war crimes from day one of entering the camps, why
># did the Soviets not take photos of the alleged Cremas, even in their
># razed state?
>
>Of course they did. See Pressac's book.

	Pressacs book? Why not your websites.	

># and why didn't the Soviets take any photographs
>
>They did.

	Wherzat? I have never seen any.

># or present detailed forensic reports about what was or said to
># have been while they had the chance of timely investigation?
>
>The ventilation grills were subjected to chemical analysis
>in 1945.

	I've never seen this one. Are you going to expand on it, or leave
it at that? Either way. I take it this is the only one. "Ventilation
grills"?

># Why?  Because the buildings shown in the Allied aerial photograph
># of 1/14/45 weren't Cremas for the mass extermination of human
># beings, that's why.
>
>Try harder next times. That is, don't base your conclusion on lies
>which are very stupid and very easy to refute.
>
>Poor, poor old Tommy.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct  3 14:08:07 PDT 1996
Article: 71434 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics
Subject: Re: Evil Palestinians
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 15:04:14 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>
>>	                  N.Y.Times, Oct. 2, 1996
>>                          (Full page ad)
>>
>>                              "VIOLENCE"
>>
>>	      	     IN OSLO, THE PLO FINALLY ADDED
>>               'NON' IN FRONT OF 'VIOLENCE' TO GET PEACE 	
>>
>>				IN ISRAEL, THE PLO JUST REMOVED IT
>>					TO TRY TO GET THEIR WAY
>>
>>The recent deadly violence in the West Bank and Gaza started when the
>>Palestinians turned to rock throwing and guns to resolve a dispute.
>>
>>But it really started with the Palestinian Authority spreading
>>inflammatory disinformation. Both these acts were in direct opposition
>>to the principles of the Oslo peace accord.
>
>	This ad is aimed at the general reader - Americans.
> 
>     	 'OUR ENEMIES ARE YOUR ENEMIES, AMERICA.'	   	 

	Most readers of alt.revisionism are aware of the obsessive
efforts by the Jews to have the Holocaust barred from open discussion,
that it is an act of ":anti-Semitism", "hate" and "neo-Naizism". What
many might not know is the same thing applies to any negative
discussion about Zionism, Israel.

	Jewish proposal "Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism" exemplifies the
whole thing. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct  3 14:08:08 PDT 1996
Article: 71436 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 15:04:30 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Yet there are other camps said to have been the centers for the
># extermination of far greater numbers. Majdanek is said to have
># been a place where 1.5 million were exterminated. Treblinka 2 million.
>
>What I read gives about 1.3 million victims for Auschwitz, 360,000
>for Maidanek, 700,000 for Treblinka. Auschwitz was indeed the worst
>camp.

	Okay. You chose the figures you like from the numerous widely
conflicting numbers and accounts, and I'll give mine. 

># In addition to this, both Treblinka and Majdanek are said to have
># been over run by the Soviets while they were still in operation
>
>What the hell are you babbling about? Treblinka was dismantled in
>1943, after the "sonderkommando" rebellion in which it was partially
>destroyed. As for Maidanek, one may look at some photographs from
>there, taken after liberation:

	According to files in Nizkor, citing "The Old Frogs Almanac"
Treblinka was over run while still in operation. According to files in
Nizkor, The Soviets over ran Majdanek while it was still in operation.


>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/maidanek/images
>
>maidanek-01.jpg
>Shoes of the victims piled up in Maidanek camp.

	Some shoes. Oh look, heres a photograph of some shoes, this
proves the Germans exterminated hundreds of thousands. Are they from
Majdanek? 

>maidanek-02.jpg
>Burned corpses of Maidanek inmates.

	Charred remains of one or two bodies. Are they from Majdanek? Are
they Jews? 

>Maidanek_Crematorium.jpg
>The crematorium in Maidanek.

	A photograph of a building, with a partial glimpse of a
excavation in foreground.

	None of which is relevant to the points of the post.
	
>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct  4 17:24:57 PDT 1996
Article: 71592 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 12:24:28 GMT
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	Holocaust books donate a considerable amount of space to
establishing a Jewish population in Europe to be able to maintain the
6,000,000 Jewish victims claim. This topic is covered to a certain
degree on alt.rev. under "Hebrew Numerology".
	Tallying of the Jewish population takes on the same dynamics as
the evolving numerology of the Holocaust story in general, where
anywhere between 300,000 and 4,000,000 Jews were killed at Auschwitz,
10, 11 or 12 million people in all were exterminated by Germany, that
anywhere btween 7, 8 or 9 hundred thousand Jews were in Hungary - etc.
	Even to this day there seems to be a wide variation as to the
existing Jewish population in the world. Figures that pop up here and
there range from 13 million to 16 million to 20 million, take your
pick. 
	Since the Jews accounting of their numbers at this time is so
widely varied, how can we accept their accounts of their population
during and preceding the Holocaust story.

	In addition to these population estimates claimed, Yehuda Bauer
in his "A History of the Holocaust" writes, "Of the 17 million Jews in
the world in the early twenties, 4.5 million lived in the Unitied
States ... Pg. 68


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct  4 17:24:58 PDT 1996
Article: 71593 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 1,000,000,  plus or minus, Prewar Jews in Europe?
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 12:25:16 GMT
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	The number of Jews in pre-war Europe, excluding the Soviet Union,
was probably somewhere around a million, give or take a hundred
thousand or so.

	At one time in the Holocaust story, it was said there were
700,000 Jews in pre-war France. The figure given now is 70,000.

	The 700,000 figure was said to have been taken from a list by the
Germans themselves. The list also included other nations, one being
Hungary, which was said to have been around 700,000 also. Even though
the 700,000 for France has been accepted as false and the new figure
of 70,000 is currently accepted as the more proper figure, the number
for those Jews in pre-war Hungary still stands.

	Poland is said to have had 3,000,000 Jews. For some reason
equaling all the other nations put together.

	Considering how the former French Jew population stands now as an
exaggeration of ten times the former assertion we have to take a look
at the Polish figures and any other figures with the same 'ten times'
in mind.

	Considering the populations given for the remaining European
countries, a few ten thousand here and a few ten thousand there, we
can easily get the idea that there were barely a million Jews in
pre-war Europe.

	Even today, in the world of high technology, Jewish claims of
present day Jews in the world can range from 13 million to 16 million
to 20 million.

	Recently an article in the Jerusalem Post claimed that the
previous estimate of 2.5 million Jews presently in the Soviet Union is
mistaken, and is now claimed to be 5 million, twice the previous
figure.   


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct  4 17:24:58 PDT 1996
Article: 71594 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Star Jewish pop. source goes bye, bye
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 12:24:40 GMT
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	Quite often the topic of Jewish population before the war pops up
on alt.revisionism. It is important to the Holocaust story to show
there were enough Jews in Europe to be killed and add up to 6 million.
Most of the time, those in favor of the story respond to challenges by
citing German estimates on the population of Jews in Europe.
Something like, 'WHAT? What are you talking about? Look, even the
Germans estimated ...'.

	As it turns out these estimates are deeply suspect.

	"In the final solution conference of January 20, 1942, the Reich
Main Security Office offered the following population statistics for
these countries: Findland 2,300; ... Netherlands, 165,000; ...
Romania, 342,000; ... Hungary, 742,000; ... France (occupied) 165,000;
... France (unoccupied), 700,000; The total is 2,475,100. But the sum
was inflated, principally because of the gross over-estimate for
unoccupied France, by about 600,000 people."
                                                       *Raul Hilberg
	
	Lets summarize: The one number was 700,000 and the correction is
100,000. This figure of the number of Jews in France is put at 70,000
in recent references.
	The same list has 700,000 Jews living in Hungary before the war.
Other figures put it at 800,000 and 900,000. Since the Jewish
population of France was ten times what it is alleged to be now, we
have to consider the same ratio applies to the Hungarian 700,000,
which puts a big quirk into the allegations that 200,000 to 450,000
were gassed at Auschwitz.
	Well so much for citing German estimates as proof there were
enough Jews in Europe to validate the numerical part of the story.
_________________________



	* We can thank Raul Hilberg in his demonstration of objectively
and honesty for reporting on this 700,000 only being 100,000.
Evidently there was just too much of one thing or not enough of
another available for world scrutiny to maintain this number of
700,000. 
	In light of this development, should we just accept this as a one
exception out of the other 15 countries mentioned or would it be
justified to take this a step further and apply this same ratio to
revise the rest, like Hungary, reported to have had 700,000 Jews.
(Pressac now claims 200 to 250 thousand Hungarian Jews were delivered
to Auschwitz instead of 450,000.) Perhaps the 700,000 reported to have
been in Hungary is more like 100,000 also, or even much less.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct  4 17:24:59 PDT 1996
Article: 71595 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 12:24:15 GMT
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	Books out to sell the Holocaust story all follow the same general
path of topics. Naturally they go on about mass gassing and cremation,
and also the activities of the Einsatzgruppens, the preceding
"anti-Semitism" and such. They all also give considerable treatment to
establishing a sufficient Jewish population preceding 1939. After all,
if they are trying to claim 6 million Jews were put to death, they
have to show that there were enough Jews in the arena to have been
killed.
       Of course fabricators can get themselves into problems when
they carry the accounts too far. Just focusing on one book, say Yehuda
Bauer's, "The History of the Holocaust", we can find in just a short
span, a number of problems. He includes in his version of establishing
a sufficient Jewish population "Table 2.1", "Jewish population
(estimated)". In this table he has three vertical columns:

   Year             Jews in Europe             Total Jews world wide
   1650                700,000                     1,750,000
   1700               1,000,000                    1,250,000
   1750               1,250,000                    2,250,000
   1800               1,500,000                    2,500,000
   1825               2,730,000                    3,281,000
   1840               3,600,000                    4,500,000
   1850               4,127,000                    4,764,500
   1860               5,200,000                    6,000,000
"Source:Arthur Ruppin, Soziologie der Juden (Berlin, 1931), pp. 81,89"


	Right in the beginning we can see the list showing that the
European Jewish population increased 7 1/2 times, from 700,000 to
5,200,000 in just 210 years.
	It seems that Bauer's list has Jewish population expanding at an
incredible rate between 1650 and 1860, where between 1800 and 1825
alone, the "estimated" Jewish population almost doubled from 1,500,000
to 2,730,000 in the 25 year period, all this increase taking place
during a time when the average life expectancy of man was about 50
some years, further stressed by wars, famines and plagues, and the
Jews undergoing "massive pogroms".
	One has to wonder how these "estimated" figures for dates from
1650 to 1860 would have been compiled in 1931. Especially since those
dates were times when communications and census capacities were
extremely low. If in fact there is such a book as the one cited as the
source, we would have to view the whole line of recogning offered in
the book to determine if the statistics aren't just founded on wishful
thinking.
	("Argumentum ad ignorantum: An argument purporting to demonstrate
a point or to persuade people, which avails itself of facts and
reasons the falsity or inadequacy of which is not readily discerned.")
	  
	By the early 20th Century Bauer, using a map from map happy
Gilbert, has the Jewish population up to 8,700,000 in Europe and
11,487,000 world wide.

	As usual, in their blatant tossing around of terms and numbers,
they include something that further throws suspicions on their claims,
and in this case Bauer offers us a map from Gilbert:

	"Some early records of Jewish town life in Europe before 1600":
that has to resort to listing the most obscure events to show that
Jews were even present in Europe. For Cologne 960 , it has "The local
Jews send a letter to Palestine asking for verification of a rumor
that a Messiah had come", not meaning Jesus Christ we can assume. In
Brussel 1310, "A Jewish scribe completes a fine illuminated
manuscript". In Munich 1228, "A Jew appears in court as a witness
during a trial", and 1173 at Wroclawek "Local coins discovered with
Hebrew inscriptions". So it seems it is necessary to pick up on wee
fragments of evidence to even show Jews existed in Europe by 1300 or
so. Given the Jewish penchant to seek out and hold anything Jewish,
this hardly seems like sufficient history to support the 700,000
Jewish population said to have been in existence by 1650.   	
	We might even want to consider the stories about millions of Jews
fleeing into the Soviet Union, which is said to already have had a
sizable Jewish population during WWII, and then ending up at only
about 2,500,000 or so by 1980. No problem here for Bauer's numbers
since he has about a million of them migrating to the U.S. at the end
of the 19th Century which would put the WWII population of Jews in the
U.S.S.R. low enough to accept the millions said to have fled the Nazis
and still be able to arrive at the numbers in recent times.
       Whatever happened to those million or so Russian Jews said to
have migrated to the U.S. at the end of the 19th century we can only
wonder, since if there was a million here by that time we would expect
millions more here and now in 1996, which there aren't to this day.
	Exaggerations, thorough fabrications - lies. That's this aspect
of the Holocaust story, as with the rest. 	



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct  4 17:25:00 PDT 1996
Article: 71596 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 3,000,000 Prewar Polish Jews?
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 12:25:05 GMT
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	Half of the 6,000,000 Jews said to have been exterminated are
said to have been from Poland.
	Germany is said to have had 300,000 or so. All the surrounding
nations are said have had anywhere from a few thousand to a hundred
thousand.
	There must have been a reason why there would be more Jews in
Poland than all those put together in the immediate surrounding
nations, not counting the Soviet Union.
	The predicted answer to this, if not already put forth, is that
they were persecuted in the other nations more so, and this is why
there were so many Jews in Poland.
	One list used by the Holocausts promotional network to cite
prewar Jewish populations in European counties, is one said to have
come from the Germans themselves. This list cited 700,000 Jews in
France, which is now put at 70,000. This same list cites 700,000 said
to have been in Hungary. 
	Three million Jews in prewar Poland? Of course almost all of the
extermination camps are said to have been in Poland, and there would a
terrible problem with trying to show that many more millions were
brought in from surrounding areas if this prewar 3,000,000 Polish Jews
did not exist. All kinds of questions would have be answered which
would further stress the account abilities of the story. 
	This is real convenient to have 3,000,000 of the exterminated
coming from the immediate area.
	My general rule in viewing Holocaust numbers is, if they are set
big to magnify the story I divide them by 10 and if they are set small
to facilitate the story I multiply them by 10. 		 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct  4 17:25:01 PDT 1996
Article: 71597 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: HOLOCAUST OF MIND
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 12:26:17 GMT
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	Entered here you will find a number of ravings that can be taken
as racist exaggerations. We can assume these examples are only a small
fraction of the ethnocentric, blurtatious material that the Jewish
community gets involved with. This community makes up less than 2% of
the American population and yet are responsible for about 100% of the
racist ads, columns and letters that appear in our papers. You may
notice under example XVIII "What Being Jewish Means to Me" is the 15th
of those presented in the N.Y.Times. Over the last 15 years hundreds
of full, half and quarter page ads have been placed in just two
newspapers, the N.Y. and L.A. Times by Jews giving themselves rave
reviews. They seem not able to control themselves, even including
racist ego statements in Holocaust promotional books. 
	
        Since the post covers a number of examples, I would recommend
reading it a piece at a time.

                                                       Tom Moran
                           ==============


I.           - "South West Jewish Archives" -
 (Webcrawler > Jews > Southwestern Jewish Archives > Crypto-Jews)
 
	"The Bloom Southwest Jewish Archives has amassed an enormous
amount of information ..." to show that the Catholics were stupid
people and that Jews were the only ones who could read and write in
pioneer days.
	The Spanish Catholics feared the Jews because they had "special
expertise in various fields".
	Offering up the best of their "enormous" archives, we might
assume, the Blooms cite a few examples to support their apparent
motive of portraying Jews as superior, the first being a "'Mrs.O'" who
had the feeling she was Jewish, because she was raised in a Hispanic
community and her family was the only '"family who were intellectuals,
so therefore we must have been Jewish"'. "Pressed" further she said
'"Well we were the only ones who had books in our house therefore we
must have been Jewish"'.
	Another example given by the Blooms to lead us to how extensive
Jewish presence was in the Old West was from "a young man" who
remembered his grandfather carving menorahs.
	In another display of ethnocentricism and exemplifying the
genetic connection of Judaism, the Blooms quote a Denver dentist who
joined a Jewish congregation, saying he did not have to convert, "even
though his father was a church going Catholic, his mother did not want
him to go to church and told him repeatedly that she was Jewish and
therefore he was too". "My mother was the clever one in the family"
and their "...Catholic friends sneered at us". 
	Another example from the "enormous" archives was a translator
>from  the Univ. of Ariz. who had a amulet with Hebrew text and who's
mother never cooked pork.
	Still another person raised by a "Catholic" mother wrote a
response to a letter (not discussed) that appeared in the Albuquerque
Journal, and the response quoted in part by the Blooms proclaimed,
"...scratch a New Mexican and his Indian blood will flow. Scratch a
little deeper and his Jewish or Moorish blood will flow. Scratch no
deeper 'cause that's all you need to know", meaning any other blood is
not worth mentioning.
                           =============


II.               "ISRAEL IS OUR ONLY PRIORITY" 
So goes the banner heading in a 1/4 page ad in the New York Times
1/23/94, under a little prelude copy that cites " -January 27, 1994-
is the New Year of the Trees."
	"Founded in 1901, the Jewish National Fund has long been
designated as the sole agency in charge of afforestation and land
reclamation in Israel."
	"JNF has planted over 200,000,000 trees throughout Israel. JNF
also builds roads and parks; prepares land for housing, agriculture
and industry ..."  the later being that area outside of the 8000 sq.
miles of the whole of Israel we would have to eliminate when trying to
figure out how many trees per sq. yard 200,000,000 trees would come
out to.

	After a little more boisterous copy we are given a sketch of a
rolling hill vista covered with trees. I wonder what a photograph
would show?
	Whatever the real story, this ad was placed in an American
newspaper for some reason. Evidently to let us know how ecologically
minded they are. 200,000,000 trees? 
                         ==================
 
III.	I CHRONICLES;   Hebrew historians recount the greatness of David.
He mustered up over 230,000 men.  He then slew the Philistines, taking
a thousand chariots, seven thousand horsemen and twenty thousand
footmen.  He then slew the Syrians, twenty thousand men.  David then
made war against the Ammons who had two thousand chariots and forty
thousand men, along with the Syrians(Evidentally those left over that
David didn't kill)who had forty thousand men and seven thousand
chariots, and David's forces killed them all. His empire then spanned
all the way to the Euphrates.  More awesome than Ghangis Khan, more
awesome than the Romans, more than Darius, more than Alexander the
Great, more than - well, more than anybody. 
           Of course there is no other record to show this ever
happened. In fact Biblical scholars have had to resort to confirming
anything in the Bible by looking into the records of other societies
of the time. The last biblical archeological expedition to the land
was in the sixties, according to the "Bible Almanac", and many
historians now find it difficult to accept anything in the biblical
scriptures as credible.
	According to a article in the N.Y.Times on a recent dig in
Israel, a obscure obliterated inscription was said to be the first
evidence that a David ever existed at all. Even this is said to be
questioned. At a recent symposium of biblical scholars in
Philadelphia, Penn. a number of them expressed their opinion that
there never was a David.
	Contents of the Bible shows a lot more than the above as to
exaggerated claims and suggests the Jewish propensity to exaggerate
started a long time ago.
                            =================


IV.                Dec. 13, 1995, New York Times
                  Quarter page ad by the ADL.

         	    "IN THE FACE OF HATE"

   "ADL is truly a grassroots civil rights and human relations
organization. One of the largest and most respected in the world." 
                            ===============


V.                         Raul Hilberg,
             "The Destruction of European Jews"

"On October 30, 1941, Gebietskommissar Carl of Slutsk reported to
Generalkommissar Kube of White Russia that the 11th Lithuanian Police
Battalion had arrived in his city suddenly in order to wipe out the
Jewish community. He had pleaded with the battalion commander for a
postponement, pointing out that the Jews were working as skilled
laborers and specialists and that White Russian mechanics were, '"so
to speak, nonexistent'".
	Stupid Russians.
                            =================


VI.	     "The Destruction of the European Jewry"
		        Raul Hilberg	

	"On Nov.7 Gouverneur Fischer of the Warsaw district proposed that
the Warsaw Jews (whose number he estimated at 300,000) be incarcerated
in a ghetto, and Frank gave his immediate consent ... During the
winter, Fischer created a Resettlement Division under Waldermar Schon,
who was going to have a major role in ghetto planning ... The first
idea, in February, to locate the ghetto in the eastern bank of the
Vistula River, was turned down ... on the ground that 80 percent of
Warsaw's artisans were Jews ... and were indispensable ..."

	Well it seems Hilberg gives the Poles more sense than the White
Russians whose talents he claimed were for the most part "nonexistent"
in relation to the Jews and the Poles in their own nation made up 20%.
Either way - stupid Poles.
	One could wonder what ratio of "artisans" he would profess the
Jews have in America. 
                          ===============

                  
VII.	As to the statement, 'Well it seems Hilberg gives the Poles more
sense than the White Russians whose talents he claimed were for the
most part "nonexistent" in relation to the Jews.' 
                       
	Danny Mittleman, alt.rev. regular, responded to this with;

        "I guess so."	

As to the statement, 'One could wonder what ratio of "artisans" he
(Hilberg) would profess the Jews have in America.' 

	Danny Mittleman responded:
    "I don't know.  I would guess it to be less than 80% for two
reasons: 
    One, for many years Jews were systematically kept out of trade
unions so less Jewish families developed traditions in specific
fields.  And two, many Jewish children in the United States go to
College and Graduate School and take on careers common at those
education levels."
	
	Which means if it wasn't for this, the Jews would be at least 80%
of the artisan story in America. Stupid Americans.
                            ================	 

VIII.    Nizkor > Shofar FTP > camps > Mauthausen > Hungary .01

	"The fate of the Jewish settlement in Hungary -- one of the
largest in Europe -- was a desolating climax to the tragic Holocaust
period. Before Hitler came to power in 1933 there were about 800,000
Jews in greater Hungary, 200,000 of then living in Budapest, where
despite an endemic anti-Semitism, they were at the forefront of
culture, scientific and economic life of the country."

Abram Sachar, "The Redemption of the Unwanted". 1983

	The figure for the number of prewar Jews in Hungary ranges from
700,000 to 900,000 - 800,000 here. The 700,000 figure is that set
forth by an estimate by the Germans, which the Jews use as an
authority to show there was a large enough Jewish population in Europe
to have been killed and add up to the 6,000,000. The same source cited
700,000 French Jews, which is currently put at 70,000 in more current
Holocaust books. Evidently there was too much of one thing or not
enough of another to maintain the gross exaggeration for France, so we
should seriously consider any figures given in the list. 
                            ==============


VIII (a).  According to Jewish author Yehuda Bauer, in his book, "A
History of the Holocaust":
	"The growth of the American trade-union movement is due in large
measure to the leadership of it's many Jewish members."
                          ===============

IX.	"The Jews are Gods chosen people."

                            ==============

X.	- "The Jews created the one god." -

	Can you picture it? A bunch of ancient Hebrews squatting around
and all of a sudden they all jump up at the same time saying, 'I got
it.'

	Actually, Akhenaten, a Pharoah of Egypt installed the concept
over Egypt a hundred years prior to the time "Exodus" is said to have
taken place.
	Also, Zoroaster was a philosopher of a one god, preceding the
first record of Hebrews.
	There are also some primitive tribes in Borneo, and the Americas
that hold to the concept.
	And then there is the most recurrent theme in the "Old Testament"
which is the writers constantly berating the Hebrews for not adhering
to the one god and following "false idols", evidently a common
practice among the people. 
                            ===============

	
XI.	Without any shred of proof, and nothing more than 
       ethnocentric fixations, the Jews announce:

                "CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS WAS A JEW."

	I recall a conversation with a Jewish person not too long ago
where he said "Christopher Columbus was most likely a Jew". When I ask
him 'most likely?' he couldn't come back with anything else.
	One piece of evidence offered in the Los Angeles Times by a
ethnocentric was he "looks Jewish".  I recall seeing a similar account
offered about Shakespeare, with further evidence being that he seemed
to go easy on the character - Shylock.  
                           ====================	       

XII.	             "What price Israel"
                     Alfred M. Lilienthal

	"Here is a paradox, a most ingenious paradox, an anthropologic
fact, many Christians may have much more Hebrew-Isrealite blood
in their veins than most of their Jewish neighbors"

	Dr. Lilienthal has for a number of years been associated with
certain publications that focus on telling the truth about Israel and
Zionism, with his attacks on Jewish activities being of the most
scathing.
	Nevertheless, having had personal communication with Dr.
Lilienthal and meeting him once at his initiative, I recognized that
he had an underlying motive. He knows the truthful analysis he puts
out about Jews and Zionism will find it's way out anyway, so he comes
out and says it too so the Jews will have someone to point to in order
to demonstrate they have the capacity for open mindedness. I
recognized Lilienthal as a "cryptic Jew" from the early stages. I
would say he associated himself with anti-Zionist parties in order to
have some influence on the intensity of the their output. Jews often
attach themselves to organizations for this reason only. The above
statement shows that he has a Jewish agenda at his core. I once heard
him, in an address to an Arab association, say they had common bonds
through Abraham, which was a clincher for me at the time, to be more
suspicious of the cryptic nature of his coming on like a anti-Zionist.

	Lets look at his own wording. I take his use of the word
"paradox" to mean the dictionary option: "a statement or proposition
seemingly self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expressing a
possible truth". This can be further confirmed by his asserting
"anthropological fact".
	Lilienthal appears almost as flaming as the Bloom's, who I
reported on above who assert that Jewish "blood" is prevalent in
Western mans gene pool. 
	Any intermixing of "blood" would be a two way street. By putting
it the way Lilienthal and the Bloom's put it they would have us
believe that the Jewish blood would become the prevalent factor,
displacing the traces of the others while their's becomes the ruling
gene.
	"Anthropological" refers to a empirical process, which comes
under the "scientific method". If Lilienthal and the Bloom's make
these claims, let them present the empirical path to their
conclusions. The Bloom's concept of empiricism is summarized above,
which if this was ever taken as a prime example for empirical
standards we would still be in the dark ages.

	Heres another example of empirical recogning to see if
Lilienthal, Bloom's and any other ethnocentric raving on the subject
carries any validity at all.

	The Jewish record, according to the science of archeology goes
back to maybe 1250 BC. Their only record, according to themselves is
found in their Bible which puts them at the beginning of the universe.
As far as any other record of their existence, in the early stages,
there are a couple of references to them made by other societies of
the time, but these are from around 600 BC.
	As far as the area of biblical narrative is concerned, there is
considerable record from other societies concerning the area, but not
about the Hebrews themselves. The area was never controlled fully by
any Hebrew people. It was always under the occupation authority of
many different and more significant civilizations. Egypt, the
Assyrians, Babylonians, Hittites, Greeks and Romans to mention a few.
There is also the Jews own story of how they went into the land around
the time of 1250 BC, whereas archeological digs show civilization
there for thousands of years before that.
	All of these societies put settlements into the area which ended
up interbreeding with the inhabitants, the Hebrews among them. This
would be taking place over a long period. Maybe one of the only
biblical narratives that can be shown to hold any validity at all is
an account of how a few ten thousands of Hebrews were carried away to
Babylon, later allowed to return after a sweeping decree by Cyrus who
set free many from many different areas with out mentioning the Jews
in particular. When this carrying away took place it is said that the
Babylonians replaced the displaced Hebrews in Palestine, and by the
time the Hebrews returned after many decades in Babylon, intermingling
we should suppose, the Babylonians had already integrated with the
remaining population, especially in the Sumerian sector.
	So, from this we assume that any "blood" specialization that may
have existed among the Hebrews was already diluted to a great degree
before even the invasion of the Greeks and Romans who set up colonies
of their own. Combining this with what took place over the next two
thousand years we can see that any Hebrew "blood" was so thoroughly
intermixed that it's original identity would be almost erased. 
	As to any superiority being associated with Jewish "blood" we
should also look at the record through the empirical method. If one
should look into existing history books, the index, and look up
Hebrew, Egyptian, Assyrian, Roman, Greek and a number of others, we
might find Hebrew on say, page 15, 234 - 235, whereas under the others
we might see something like Romans, page 15, 64, 108 - 119, 340 - 360.
In fact any books on the Bible would be quite boring affairs if they
didn't include pictures of art and commentary of societies other than
the Hebrews. The Hebrews were not innovators in anything. No record is
there. They even, by their own record, had to call on the
Phoenicians to build their temple.
	The Romans and the Greeks have left behind a record that makes
the Bible look like a pamphlet. The Greeks and the Romans were great
in theatre, art, literature, engineering, philosophy and other
innovations that are totally absent from the Hebrew record. 
	Even after the biblical era unto now there is no record of Hebrew
superiority. I will state now that nothing like this would be written
if it wasn't for the many boastings by the Jews themselves about their
being superior. It is a world where things are said and things are
challenged. If they think they rate any special exclusion from being
doubted or denied it only shows the degree of ethnocentric
righteousness.
	The only record of any true accomplishment associated with
Hebrewism has occurred in the last century. Even here it can be shown,
using the empirical dynamics of anthropology, that any accomplishments
associated with Hebrewism is really the result of non-Hebrewism.
	Take names like Einstein, Oppenheimer and a few other European
names who are touted as Jewish whenever their names come up. They all
have a German, Italian or other western connection. Of course the
Hebrew ego will blurt out that names like Heisenberg, Shroedinger,
Plank, Galileo, Newton, and a whole slue of others came to be from the
Jewish gene. This I have witnessed personally. In this case we would
have to look at other areas the Jews have taken root, such as Romania,
Soviet Union, Hungary, other nations of the Middle East, North Africa
and in South America. Judging by the names of those who seem to be at
the head of he Jewish community, we can see a lot of German names. 
	So tracing Hebrews from the very onset of their record to now
shows that there is absolutely nothing there to show that Hebrew
"blood" prevails anywhere and that any unique benevolent qualities are
associated with it or they are inherently more "brilliant" than
goyims.
	No one is more aware, at least subliminally, than the Hebrews,
who have to resort to making boasterous announcements, no.1 in the
process of chutzpa.
	The Jews have wide record of stating they are the only group to
exist from ancient times, constantly raving about their enduring
cohesion. The Jew finds it necessary to stay together in order to ply
their way in the world. They, not having the inherent strength and
capability to go it alone have always stuck together to capitalize on
the talents and production of others. They have the most repeated
history in the world, one of constantly being the recipients of
backlash to their conspiracies to manipulate others for the Jewish
interest. They call it persecution. But if a little boy is constantly
getting into trouble, who's fault is it? Any common recognition would
have to put the ultimate responsibility on the little boy. In fact
they thrive on this history. Glorify in being persecuted, evidently
giving them some sense of accomplishment as a people.
                           =================
                           
XIII.	Go to Tombstone Arizona. Visit Boot Hill. Follow the sign to
"Jewish Cemetery". You will come upon a low adobe wall around a 300
foot square area. In the center on a pedestal is a little pLaque that
reads something like:

	'Here lies some Jewish citizens of old Tombstone, "Friends of the
Indians".

	I know that the Jews are very avid in crawling around Washington
seeking billions for Israel, but I don't ever recall seeing them
active in bringing better times to anyone else, especially the
American Indian. In fact we could surmise that for every dollar that
goes to Israel, it is less that which could be used for the indigent
American.

	No, no. The Jews didn't go to Tombstone to reap of the gold and
silver mines, they went there out of concern for the Indians.  
                            ===================
	
XIV.	Lizard" (Lizard@dnai.com) wrote in "Re:Simon Wiesenthal Center's
*previous* internet censorship attempts" -

	"The amount of cross breeding between Jews and Christians in
Europe is such that the gene pool is hopelessly mixed as is, more
importantly the meme pool.
	Try to purge all '"Jewish influences"' from any good library of
classical literature and you'll have no books left."
	
                           =================	

XV.	About ten years ago the L.A.Times carried a little notice about a
discussion panel at UCLA by their Hillel chapter in which it was going
to be shown that American humor came from the Jews. 
	They were going to do it by showing some passages from the Old
Testament. Looking up the one sample example noted, didn't show
anything funny.
	The topic of, no humor can be found in the Bible, is one that is
recognized and commented on by many.
                            =================

XVI.	About 5 years ago, a local newspaper carried an article written
by a Jew who interviewed another Jew about his expertise in some
martial art said to have been developed in Israel. The article went on
to say he was giving instruction to local police departments and that
the technique was "awesome" - "...even more awesome than Gracy
jujitsu".
	Gracy jujitsu is an art that a Scotchman living in Brazil
developed late in the 19th Century.
	For the last few years there have been matches shown on TV that
pits one martial art against another. I believe the first one was
called "The Ultimate Challenge". Its a elimination fight down. All
forms can show up to participate.
	During that match and all subsequent matches, Gracy
representatives have won.
	The Gracys, the initial Gracy"s off spring, have offered over the
last number of years, $100,000 to anyone who can beat them.
	The Jew with the Jewish martial art form that is "more awesome
than Gracy" or any other representative of the awesome technique have
never shown up to take the challenge or to participate and show their
awesome techniques at any of the TV fight downs.
	A personal acquaintance who knows the Gracys ask the Gracys if
they knew anything about this awesome Jewish technique and they never
even heard of it.
	Considering the Gracys $100,000 reward, we can see they put their
money were their mouth is, and the Jewish techniquers merely stick out
the spoon of chutzpa.  
                           =================

XVII.                   "WHAT BEING JEWISH MEANS TO ME"
  The latest to appear under this heading that appears in quarter page
ads in the N.Y.Times with regular frequency is one by Justice Ruth
Bader Ginsberg, 1/14/96.

	"There is an age-old connection between Judaism and law. For
centuries, rabbis and other Jewish scholars have studied, restudied,
and ceaselessly interpreted the Talmud. These studies have produced a
vast corpus of judicial writing. Jews have been called '"the people of
the book"', reflecting their placement of learning first among
cultural values.
	The Jewish tradition prized the scholarship of judges and
lawyers, and when anti-Semitic occupational restrictions were lifted,
Jews were drawn to the learned professions of the countries in which
they lived. In the U.S., law became the bulwark against the kind of
oppression Jews had endured ... Jews in large numbers became lawyers,
some eventually became judges, and the best of those jurists used law
to secure justice for others.
	Laws as protectors of the oppressed, the poor, the loner, is
evident in the work of my Jewish predecessors ...
	The late Supreme Court justice (and former American Jewish
Committee president) Arthur Goldberg once said, '"My concern for
justice, for peace, for enlightenment, all stem from my heritage"'. I
am fortunate to be linked to that heritage.
	Each time I visit the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, I am
reminded that Hitler's evil kingdom, his '"Holocaust Kingdom"', was a
kingdom full of laws. ..."

	Ginsberg then goes on to tell us how the German justices went
astray and then continued on with how wonderful Judaic thinking is.

	The ad is placed by The American Jewish Committee.

	"The American Jewish Committee is proud to present this message,
the fifteenth in a series, on the meaning of being Jewish today."

	"For information on a variety of programs which can help you
explore your connection to Judaism, write ..."

	""Founded in 1906, the American Jewish Committee is dedicated to
strengthening the Jewish community, enriching the quality of Jewish
life, and enhancing democratic values for all."


Dear Ruth Ginsberg and the American Jewish Committee,
	As to the claims made in your advertisement, N.Y. Times, 1/14/96,
stating that Jews are righteously concerned with democracy and rights
for others, I have a few questions before I can accept the proposals
as being sincere.   
	What record do you have as to the Israeli policy of shooting down
little kids, and their policy of condoning torture? What is your view
on the Jewish imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians without trial?
What is your opinion on the jews in Israel razing peoples houses. What
is your view on Israeli defiance of U.N. resolutions?
What is your view on Israel terrorizing 100s of 1000s in Lebanon.
	Do you think support of Israel should be subject to a democratic
vote by the citizens of the U.S.? Do you think that support of Israel
is a violation of our 'separation of church and state' clause?
	What is your view of Holocaust revisionism? Do you think
revisionists have the right to be heard, in the press, on TV, on
campus? What is your view on the continuing activity of the Simon
Wiesenthal Center and the ADL to bring censorship to the Worldwide
Web? Do you think they should be required to name offending sites
explicitly and should be required to present their case before a
democratic vote?
	Do you have any record to show you have addressed any of this?
                           ================

XVIII.                    Quote from the Talmud
	"He who so ever saves the life of a Jew, is as if he had saved
the life of the whole world."
	Which further implies, 'He who so ever saves the life of a goyim,
is as if he had saved nothing'.
                           ================

XIX.                   Statement by a Israeli leader at a 
                      "Salute to Israel" gathering in L.A.
	"The United States wouldn't be what it is if it wasn't for
Israel".
	Now there is a true statement. The Unitied States, and the world,
would be a lot better off if Israel never existed. 
                            ===============

XX.                The Jew who took 500 Japanese prisoners.

	The full account was posted on alt.rev. a number of months ago.
It had also received exposure in public newspapers.
	About ten years ago or so a Jew laid claim to the Congressional
Metal of Honor. His story was that he took 500 Japanese prisoners. For
some reason and eventually, almost the full U.S. Senate got involved
in special legislation to have the matter considered seriously, and
were opting to award the nations highest citation.  As it turned the
Jew was exposed as a liar and the matter slid away into the history of
the rest of the exaggerations.
	The matter was taken up by the Senate on the urgings of major
Jewish organizations, which makes the lie their lie. The lie was
exposed by members of the claiming person's unit during the war. The
Jews tried to make it look like it was on their initiative, the Simon
Wiesenthal Center being one of the Jewish organizations involved.
	 

   


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct  4 17:25:02 PDT 1996
Article: 71598 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Holocaust Magic Wand - deus ex machina
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 12:28:04 GMT
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	       Also titled, Great concepts worth knowing.
	
	
	"Deus ex machina".

	Random House Dictionary:
  1. "a god who resolves the entanglements of the play by his super
natural forces".
  2. "an artificial, forced or improbable device used to resolve the
difficulties of a plot".

	Like a document for every occasion, or interpreting an ant hill
phrase or word into a mountain range, or citing eye witness or second
party eyewitness testimony, special interpretation of testimony,
anonymous accounts, finding accounts in bottles buried at the 'scene
of the crime', or merely blurting out whatever suits the purpose.

	
                  ----------------------------

	 Argumentum ad ignorantum:
     "An argument purporting to demonstrate a point or to persuade
people, which avails itself of facts and reasons the falsity or
inadequacy of which is not readily discerned;(or available for
validation), a misleading argument used in reliance on peoples
ignorance", (or inability to access any references cited as showing
proof) such as most of the Holocaust evidence.


                  ------------------------------

	































































                    Argumentum ad Special Exception


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct  4 17:25:03 PDT 1996
Article: 71608 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 12:41:40 GMT
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	The following is a response a Mr.Morrison has posted in the past.
I am including it here myself in case Mr.Morrison for some reason
choses not to this time around.
=======================================================================

>From  Mr.Morrison:

	Wow!  A Holocaust book printed in *1931*, before Hitler came to
power, before the first concentration camp was built, before
Auschwitz.  That Ruppin guy must have been some prescient dude.

Idiot.

Enough of that, let us proceed to the numbers.

Population growth is exponential and proceeds according to the formula


                      P=PoE^(at)                     Eqn 1
where
    P = population after time t
    Po= original population
    E = exponential constant e (2.718281828...)
    t = time in years
    a = growth rate

Rearranging terms and taking the natural log of both sides of the
equation, we get

                      Ln(P/Po)=at                    Eqn 2

>From  which

                      a=(Ln(P/Po))/t                 Eqn 3

comes naturally.

Given a European Jewish population of 700 000 in 1650 and 5 200 000 in

1860,we have the formula we get 

                 P = 5 200 000
                 Po= 700 000
                 t = 210

Substituting into Equation 3, we get a=.00949 or a growth of 0.949%
per year.

Massimo Livi-Bacci in _Storia Minima della Popolazione del Mondo_
(1989), (translated as _A Concise History of World population_, 1992,
ISBN 1-55786- 269-9) estimated the total European population in 1600
to be 89 million and in 1850 to be 209 million, which equals a growth
rate of 0.3415% per year.  
>From  this it would seem that Jews had a growth rate 3 times that of
other Europeans.

However this is in error because just over 1 000 000 Jews were living 
outside Europe in 1650, whereas there were only 250 000 in 1700.  It
is reasonable to assume that a large percentage of that population
shifted to Europe.  Given that this is impossible to prove given
Moran's figures, a more reasonable approach would be to use the total
number of Jews worldwide. Those figures give a population growth of
0.587% per year, still slightly greater than the European average but
not excessive.

However, Table 1.3 on page 31 of the book shows some interesting
figures. The growth rate of the population in Europe from 1AD to 1750
was about .06% but jumped in 1750-1950 to .64% (*10* times higher).
The Jewish population increase falls below this, so we obviously know
that such growth rates are possible.

Just as a comparison the 1750-1950 period has growth rates in the USSR
at .82%, even given the slaughter of WW2 and Stalin's killings.  The
total world population growth was approximetly .6%

Now, about that population doubling between 1800 and 1825.

First, Moran's methodology is, of course, bogus.  The European Jewish 
population increased from 1 500 000 to 2 730 000.  However, the
*world* Jewish population increased from 2 500 000 to 3 281 000, an
increase of only 781 000 people as opposed to a European increase of 1
230 000.  How do you explain how the total world Jewish population
increased by a lesser amount than the European?  The intuitive answer
is migration.  An obvious response is that, like between 1650 and
1700, a great many Jews may have migrated into Europe.  The numbers
alone don't give any indication, thus there is no evidence the numbers
are bogus.  This rate of increase, BTW is 1.087% Is there another
population group that shows such a population increase?  If there is,
that would negate Moran's conclusion that such numbers are impossible.

As a matter of fact there is such a group and they are rather near and
dear to me. 

In 1684 the population of Quebec was approximetly 12 000 people.  In
1784, one hundred years later, the French population was 132 000, an
average annual growth rate of a relatively monstrous 2.4% per year (H.
Charbonneau, "Essai sur l'evolution demographique du Quebec de 1534 a
2034" _Cahiers Quebecois de demographie_, 13 (1984), p. 13).  

There were a total of about 15 000 immigrants into Quebec between 1600
and 1700 (when immigration from France essentially ceased).  About 2/3
of that population returned to France for one reason or another or did
not have a family, thus the population growth did not rely to any
significant extant on migration (indeed, there has almost always been
a net move of population *out* by Quebecois).  There was an average of
4.2 *married* children per couple (6.3 total children) which meant a
population doubling within a single generation (less than 30 years) by
birth *alone*.  These people lived before the sudden population jump
Moran is concerned with, on the frontiers of the known world, with a
harsher climate, during several wars etc etc.

Why did this sudden ncrease occur, when the numbers from Normandy,
where most of the settlers came from, are nowhere close?  Several
reasons.  The settlers married younger (almost 4 years earlier than
their cousins back home), had 5 more years of life expectancy, and
women had twice the rate of second marriages in Quebec as in France,
thus leading to more children.  The last datapoint is explained by the
fact that France, like most established countries, had about a 50/50
male female split so a widow didn't have much chance of a second
marriage while most of the settlers in Quebec were male, thus they
outnumbered females.  Given the fact that the odds were a woman 
would be a widow at a younger age (due to the lower marrying age),
thus presumably still attractive to a man, and would live longer with
a higher fertility rate, the odds of a second batch of kids could be
very good. This information is not new.  In 1776 Adam Smith noted that
the American colonies were doubling their population every 20 or 25
years, mostly due to birth and not immigration (Livi-Bacci, p 56).  He
also noted it was not unusual for an elderly colonist to see 100
descendants or more.  Back in Quebec, a couple named Jean Guyon and
Mathurine Robin who landed in 1608 had 2150 descendants by 1730.  That
is a growth rate (for that family) of an incredible 5.72%  Given a
generation of about 25 years, the family population had increased 1075
times in five generation.

Rabbits don't breed that fast.

So what does all this prove?

Tom Moran has no idea what he is talking about.  Not only is his
(apparent) assumptions about population wrong he also blows it when he
claims such numbers are unrealistic.  In fact, there is another
population that has demonstrated growth *twice* that of what he claims
is unrealistic for the Jews and they did it a full century earlier in
an uncivilized frontier.

His methodology stinks.  He apparently refuses to consider large scale

population movements as a cause of population changes in Europe.  He
fails to see how the Jews could maintain a population increase given
such things as wars and disease and pogroms when Russia-USSR managed
an even *larger* growth rate after suffing through Czarist purges,
famine, Stalin's purges, the Second World War and yet more famine.

Finally, he presents this information from 1931.  Information possibly
six and a half decades out of date.  It may be accurate, it may not.
I doubt it's the only book on the subject to be written in the last 65
years.  Which leads one to wonder why he chose it.  Is it perhaps
because it gives numbers that he thought "proved" there was
intentional fiddling with the figures?

Too bad there is no such proof.


>Exaggerations, thorough fabrications - lies. Thats this aspect of the
>Holocaust story, as with the rest.      

Misinterpretation, incomprehension and outright stupidity.  That's
this aspect of the denier method, as is the rest.

Yet another for the "Tom Moran screws up...again" file.

--
Keith Morrison
t08o@unb.ca


--end included text--

--------------3EE11D085EE--
 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct  4 17:25:03 PDT 1996
Article: 71609 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 12:48:40 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


Recently an article in the Jerusalem Post claimed that the
previous estimate of 2.5 million Jews presently in the Soviet Union is
mistaken, and is now claimed to be 5 million, twice the previous
figure.   


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct  4 17:25:04 PDT 1996
Article: 71632 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 13:36:44 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>
>Recently an article in the Jerusalem Post claimed that the
>previous estimate of 2.5 million Jews presently in the Soviet Union is
>mistaken, and is now claimed to be 5 million, twice the previous
>figure.

	Considering the usual penchant for exaggerations by the Jewish
community, I would say the population of Jews in Russia is more like
half of original figure of 2.5 million.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct  4 17:25:05 PDT 1996
Article: 71666 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Haphazard state of affairs
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 17:59:41 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Now this doesn't seem such a bad design, at least when compared
># to what they came to build at Auschwitz, which the first two were
># built underground making it necessary to carry the thousands of
># bodies up the stairs and through a couple of door ways.
>
>Of course, an elevator was used to take the corpses to the ground
>floor where the furnaces were. I guess this was mentioned here a
>few hundreds of times. But Tommy Moran is a "revisionist scholar".

	Of course there may have been an elevator ordered, even installed
at the building identified as Crema III. The Holocaust story has it
Crema III had an elevator. Crema II was left to rot with just the
stairs. 
	The topic is "underground". The Germans building chambers
underground, which, elevator or no, would be a ridiculous plan.
Evidently they figured out something else with Cremas IV and V. In the
end, we have the Holocaust story telling us two Cremas were built
underground and two were built on top of the ground at Birkenau.

># Why Auschwitz didn't go for the well proven, by Holocaust
># accounts, method of extermination by carbon monoxide said to
># have been used at other camps to kill millions of people is a wonder.

>One obvious reason is that Zyklon was used in Auschwitz before
>Belzec started operating. It worked well and Hoess decided not
>to switch to using engine exhaust. He also mentions in his memoirs
>that using engine exhaust sometimes resulted in technical problems,
>and adds:

	Its interesting how Mr.Keren focuses on Belzec, when the story
has it that carbon monoxide was used at Treblinka and other camps
first, and in the "field".

> "Experience had shown that that the preparation of prussic acid
>[HCN] called Cyclone B caused death with far greater speed and
>certainty" [p. 133, "KL Auschwitz Seen by the SS"].

	Often technical problems with the carbon monoxide trick are
attested to in the Holocaust story. As far as I know, none of the
technical problems are discussed, only referred to.

	Rudolph Ho'ss is one of the most discredited eye witnesses in the
story. He is the Holocaust story's star witness. His testimony is
riddled with recognized lies. His testimony says one thing and his
autobiography says another.
	Mr.Keren would have to admit Ho'ss' numbers for exterminations at
Auschwitz are contrary to the new recognized numbers, but he will
select whatever he thinks will support his position and have it
accepted as solid evidence.

	Ho'ss was a beaten (physically and mentally) insane person by the
time he came to testify to anything.

	If this is all Mr.Keren can offer to support his attempts, then
we can see how weak the story is. Especially since the Holocaust story
is 99% eyewitnesses and Mr.Keren is an eyewitness specialist.

>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct  4 17:25:05 PDT 1996
Article: 71667 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust / Zionism connection
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 17:59:16 GMT
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	Simon Wiesenthal Center "News Releases".
     ----------------------------------------

"Wiesenthal Center to President Clinton: No Arafat Invitation until
PLO Charter Revoked", July 6, 1995 

"President Clinton Expresses Disappointment at Arafat's Failure to
Revoke PLO Covenant", August 8, 1995

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct  4 17:25:06 PDT 1996
Article: 71668 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust / Zionism connection
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 18:05:56 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	
>	Simon Wiesenthal Center "News Releases".
>     ----------------------------------------
>
>"Wiesenthal Center to President Clinton: No Arafat Invitation until
>PLO Charter Revoked", July 6, 1995 
>
>"President Clinton Expresses Disappointment at Arafat's Failure to
>Revoke PLO Covenant", August 8, 1995


	Right here we have the Simon Wiesenthal telling Clinton, in the
open limelight of our medias,  "No Arafat Invitation until PLO Charter
Revoked", and Clinton obeying.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct  4 18:21:54 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct  4 18:25:44 PDT 1996
Article: 71681 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demolition of Auschwitz evidence?
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 11:34:10 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <32527619.2343924@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>wrote:
>
>Here we have yet another brazen example of Holocaust denial by Moran. His
>specious claims, half-truths, and outright lies are presented for no other
>reason than the malicious distortion of the historical record to disparge
>the Holocaust and its victims. Such puerile tactics are the stock-in-trade
>of Holocuast deniers, Nazi apologists, and anti-Semites like Moran.

	This is Mr. VanAlstines emotional bitter introduction.
---

>> The Holocaust story has it that the Germans systematically
>> entered into a demolition phase of various crematoriums to cover up
>> the alleged Holocaust crimes.
>
>The Nazis systematically attempted to erase the evidence of their
>genocide. The Nazis did this in connection with Aktion 1005 at the
>extermination camps of Auschwitz II-Birkenau, Belzac, Chelmno, Sobibor,
>and Treblinka. (cf. _Historical Atlas of the Holocaust_, pp.76-102.) 

	"Historical Atlas of the Holocaust"? "pp. 76-102" you say?

>However, unlike the other extermination camps, the evidence of genocide at
>Auschwitz II-Birkenau and Majdanek were not completely erased because they
>were abandoned in the face of the rapidly advancing Red Army. At Birkenau
>the SS, who had been methodically dismantling Kremas II and III since
>November 1944 (Krema IV was demolished in October), hastily dynamited them
>along with Krema V and set fire to the storage barracks, where the plunder
>of the victims was kept, before fleeing. 

	So here we have it the Germans were dismantling the Kremas
starting in Nov. 1944, yet Allied photos show them to be intact in
Jan. 1945. Then somewhere before the Soviets arrived days later, the
Germans dynamited the buildings. But are there any photos of the ruins
as they were then by the Soviet "Extraordinary Commission" that was
there from day one? The only photo of any ruins is one of collapsed
concrete, with the source of the photo untold. VanAlstine hasn't put
forth any references for his statement, but we could imagine it's from
some "eyewitness" testimony. 

>> The gassings are said to have ceased in late summer or early fall
>> 1944.
>
>Yes. November 1944. 

	He could be right. But I think I have seen dates for Aug. and
Sept. Maybe Mr.VanAlstine will come back to give his sources for the
record. This way they can be archived under the category (last gassing
Ausch.) and compared to others as they appear.

>> The only remaining photograph, today, as evidence of this alleged
>> program is a picture of some collapsed concrete, said to have been
>> Crema II. This is the only photo presented by the Holocaust
>> promotional network.
>
>This is incorrect. There were _numerous_ (surviving) photos taken of the
>Kremas during their construction by the Auschwitz Bauleitung. Not to
>mention there are also photos of deportees undergoing "selection" on the
>ramp, women being driven naked into the gas chambers of Krema V, and of
>the bodies of the gassed victims being burned in an incineration pit, etc.
>(cf. Sweibocka, _Auschwitz: a history in photographs_.)  

	The only photograph of any ruins is that of Crema II. Any other
photographs are irrelevant as to the immediate topic. What was left. A
"demolition" program.


>> Yet even the Holocaust story has it that the Germans were engaged
>> in a general dismantling program of the camp.
>
>The Nazis, began the dismantling of Kremas II and II in late 1944. Krema
>IV was gutted in the Sonderkommando revolt and subsequently demolished in
>late 1944. Kremas II, III, and V were demolished in January 1945. (See
>below.) 

	He already said that in reference to something else. The topic
here is "general demolition". 

>> In an Allied aerial photo of the camp, 1/14/45 we can see that
>> parts of the camp are missing when compared to other Allied aerial
>> photos.
>
>Yes. One can also see that Kremas II and III were being dismantled, and
>that Krema IV was demolished. 

	No, the photo of Jan. 1945 shows no sign of dismantling taking
place.  

>> A good part of Monowitz (industrial sector) are missing and about 8
>barracks in the 
>> women's camp are either missing or in some other state than the rest.
>
>The I.G. Farben complex at Monowitz was bombed several times by the USAAF:

	We could accept this as true. Whether what is shown in the photo
of Jan. 1945 is the result of demolition or bombing is not evident.
What is evident, that it wasn't bombing as there appears to be no
rubble or partially standing walls. Even though Mr.VanAsltine chose to
overlook it, barracks in the women's camp were shown to be missing.
Caption within the photo of Jan. 1945 have it as being "partially
dismantled".

>"According to the interpretation of aerial photographs taken during the
>[September 13, 1944] raid, 'only slight damage' was done, mostly to the
>'small stores, buildings and labour barracks'. Two buildings in the
>'concentration camp' were seen also to have been hit." (Gilbert,
>_Auschwitz and the Allies_, p.316.) During the raid some 300 slave
>laborers were injured. (cf. Ibid. p.315.) 
>
>An air photo of the December 21, 1944, raid against the I.G. Farben
>complex at Monowitz also shows bomb damage to buildings. (cf. Ball, _Air
>Photo Evidence_, p.75.) 	 

>Is Moran claiming that, rather than suffering from bomb damage, this "good
>part" of the "Monowitz (industrial sector)" was "missing" because it was
>part of the Nazi attempt to erase the evidence of their genocide at
>Birkenau, which was some five miles away? 

	We'll clarify the section in question. Sometimes referred to, I
believe, as part of or connected to Monowitz, identified in photos as
"Sector III", immediately north of the mens section. This section is
identified in the photo of Jan. 1945 as having been "dismantled". 	

>Or is Moran is simply being disingenous here in trying to "prove" that the
>Nazis were "dismantling" _all_ the Auschwitz camps (i.e. I-III), when, in
>fact, they never attempted any such thing?  By attempting this he appears
>to be trying support his specious claim that the Kremas weren't homicidal
>installations and the demolishing of the Kremas were simply a part of some
>sort of overall "dismantling" process the Nazis undertook for unspecifed
>reasons.  
>
>Unfortunately, for Moran, there was no grand Nazi "dismantling" program.
>The Nazis _weren't_ trying to dismantle I.G. Farben's synthetic oil plant
>at Monowitz, which cost some 700 million RM. Nor were the Nazis
>dismantling Auschwitz III (Monowotz) or Auschwitz I. Just the Kremas at
>Birkenau. 
>
>Interesting, is is not, that the _only_ camp where any dismantling took
>place was the where systematic mass murder took place? Interesting, is is
>not, that at the _other_ Nazi extermination camps the erasure of the
>evidence of systematic Nazi mass murder _also_ took place? 
>
>> An arrow in the photo points to an empty area where the arrow
>> caption states "Gas Chamber IV, Destroyed 7 OCT 1944".
>
>Yes. Krema IV was set afire and gutted during the Sonderkommando revolt
>and later demolished. (cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.239.)
>
>>Yet Cremas II, III and V are shown to be intact 1/14/45.
>
>This is incorrect. Kremas II and III were dismantled. Only their shells
>were partially intact:

	"Only their shells". What shows in the photo is the buildings,
complete. Mr.VanAsltine may have some eye witness testimony that can
give us a story about something happening on the inside.


>"In photographs taken by a further United States photographic
>reconnaisance on December 21, the sole aim of which was to show the extent
>of the damage at Monowitz during the bombing raid three days before, many
>of the electrified fences and guard towers of Birkenau [Mexico] can now be
>seen to have been dismantled. At Crematorium II the undressing room roof
>adjacent to the gas chamber had been removed, and the roof and chimney of
>the Crematorium itself were in the process of being dismantled. The fences
>around the Crematorium can also be seen to have been removed. Around
>Crematorium III the fences are also gone, and the whole building
>surrounded by debris..." (_Auschwitz and the Allies_, p.332)
>
>"On January 14 the United States Air Force flew its twelfth photographic
>reconnaisance flight over Monowitz. Once more, all of Auschwitz and all of
>Birkenau were included. Studying the photographs today, the continuing
>dismantling of the gas chambers and crematoria is evident...." (Ibid.
>p.334)
>
>> This would be just days before the Soviet advance would reach the
>> camp.
>
>And? 

	"And"? The rest of Mr.VanAlstine's endeavor is a out of breath
meandering, a protracted journey through un-necessary details that
neither rebuts the article or supports his monumental 420 line reply.

> The record of the war would show that Germans would have had to
>> recognize the inevitable over run by the Allied forces by the date
>> 1/14/45 and even months before that.
>
>The Nazis, in particular Himmler, may well have recognized this. Himmler
>ordered a halt to mass homicidal gassings in early November 1944 and the
>demolition of the Kremas on November 25, 1944. (cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_,
>p.174.)  Yet Auschwitz wasn't _evacuated_ until January 17, 1945, which
>argues that the actual abandonment of Auschwitz, done in haste, was
>ill-prepared. (See below.) 
>
>> Holocaust facts, and perhaps non-Holocaust facts, have it that the
>Germans began to evacuate 
>> the camp for the most part weeks before 1/14/45. 
>
>This is incorrect. The _evacuation_ of Auschwitz complex _began_ on
>January 17, 1945, as can be seen in the _Auschwitz Chronicle 1939-1945_,
>pp.782-805:
>
>January 17 [1945]
>
>Units of the Red Army advance on outlying areas of Krako'w from the north
>and northwest and suprise the German positions, which do not expect an
>attack from this flank. At 12 o'clock the last official meeting of
>Governor Hans Frank takes place, at which he declares that Krako'w, a
>German city since earliest times, could never be surrendered by the
>Germans. At 2:00 P.M he leavces Krako'w in the direction of Silesia. A
>vigorous Russian air attack on the retreating columns of the military and
>administrative personnel, whose departure from Krako'w increasingly takes
>on the character of a flight, begins at 2:30 P.M.
>
>[...]
>
>The male and female prisoners fall in for their last role call. The number
>of prisoners of the individual camps and auxiliary camps is as follows:
>
>Babitz                       159 male prisoners
>Budy                         313 male prisoners
>Plawny                       138 male prisoners
>Birkenau Production area     204 male prisoners
>Auschwitz main camp       10,030 male prisoners
>Birkenau men's camp        4,473 male prisoners
>                          ----------------------
>                          15, 317 male prisoners
>
>Auschwitz women's camp     6,196 female prisoners
>Birkenau women's camp     10,381 female prisoners
>                          ----------------------
>                   Total  31,894 male and female prisoners
>
>In the wake of the decision to remove the prisoners from Auschwitz,
>Commandant Baer personally chooses the leaders of the evacuation columns
>from among the members of the guard companies and orders them to liquidate
>ruthlessly all prisoners who attempt to escape during the evacuatyion or
>drag their feet.
>
>The prisoners Jo'zef Cyrankiewicz and Stanislaw Klodin'ski write in their
>last report to Tersa Lasocka and Edward Halon of PWOK in Krakow:
>
>   My dear Ones! We are now experiancing the evacuation. Chaos. Panic among 
>   drunken SS. We are trying with all political means to make the departure 
>   as tolerable as possible and to protect from extermination the invalids 
>   allegedly remaining behind. These objectives were- and possibly are 
>   -entirely clear. The march goes first in the direction of Bielsko. Later, 
>   a part is going toward the Sudenten (Leitmeritz), another part toward 
>   Gross_Rosen. The only train is taking the less seriously ill to Hannover.
>   The intentions change from hour to hour, since they have no idea what 
>   orders they will recieve. Radio propaganda is necessary. This type of 
>   evacuation means the extermination of t least half the prisoners. A check
>   by the Red Cross is necessary and, in the period of the "interregnum" in
>   the camp is indispensible, so that some special commando of the SS doesn't 
>   simply wipe out the sick... We also enclose a number of documents.
>
>In the auxillary camps that belong to Monowitz, formerly Auschwitz III,
>are the following numbers of male prisoners:
>
>Monowitz (buna works)              10,223
>Golleschau                          1,008
>Jawischowitz (Jawiszowice)          1,988
>Eintrachu"tte (Swietochlowice)      1,297
>Neu-Dachs (Jaworzno)                3,664
>Blechhammer (Blachowina)            3,958
>Fu"rstengrube (Wesola)              1,283
>Gute Hoffnung (Janinagrube, Libiaz    853
>Bru"nn (Brno)                          36
>Gleiwitz I                          1,336           
>Gleiwitz II                           740         
>Gleiwitz III                          609
>Gleiwitz IV                           444
>Laurhu"tte (Siemianowice)             937
>Sosnowitz                             836
>Bobrek                                213
>Trzebinia                             641
>Althammer (Stara Kuz'nia)             486
>Tschechowitz-Dziedzitz                561
>Charlottengrube (Rydultowy)           833
>Hindenburg (Zabrze)                    70
>Bismarckhu"tte (Hajduki)              192
>Hubertushu"tte (Lagiewniki)           202
>                                   ______
>                            Total  33,023
>
>[...]
>
>The prisoner physicians in Monowitz recieve the order to carefully examine
>the health conditions of the sick and to remove all those able to march
>from the hospital records. Only the seriously ill may remain behind, under
>the supervision of doctors who are ill and unable to march.
>
>January 18 ]1945]
>
>[...]
>
>The departure of the female prisoners from the Birkenau women's camp
>begins towards morning. At short intervals columns of 500 women and
>children each leave the camp, escorted by SS men. A total of 5,345 female
>prisoners leave the camp on this day, among them 176 from Plasz'ow, 1,169
>from Camp B-IIc, and 4,000 from Camps B-IIb and B-IIe. They are taken to
>Auschwitz and wait there fro the formation of the evacuation columns.
>$,428 female prisoners, women and girls, and 169 bosys remain in the
>women's infirmary B-IIe.
>
>[...]
>
>Columns of prisoners leave Birkenau at specific intervals. The last
>column, with approximately 1,500 prisoners, leaves Camp B-IId in the
>afternoon. 400 prisoners join this column to escape being liquidated in
>the camp. Among them are some youthful prisoners from the Penal Company,
>70 prisoners from the crematorium demolition squad, and 30 prisoners from
>the Special Squad, who take advantage of an ungaurded moment in
>Crematorium V to join the march. The route of this column leads through
>Auschwitz, Rajsko, Brzeszcze, Go'ra, Miedz'na, C'wiklice, Pszczyna,
>Koblielice, Kryry, Suszec, Rudziczka, Kleszczo'w, Zory, Rogoz'ne, Ro'j,
>Rybnik, S'wierklany Dolne, and Marklowice to Wodzislaw in Silesia.
>
>In the evening the female prisoners in the Auschwitz womens's camp are
>formed into columns. Together with the female prisoners who have arrived
>from Birkenau they are driven in the direction of Rajsko. The female
>prisoners of the gardening and plant-breeding squads from the Rajsko A.C.
>join the procession of the male and female prisoners evacuated from
>Auschwitz-Birkenau and bring up the rear. They march through the
>communities of Pszczyna, Poreba Wielka, and Jastrzebie Go'rne to Wodzislaw
>in Silesia. Only Eugenia Halbreich (No. 29700), who had hidden herself in
>the attic of an addition next to the house of SS man Grell, remains in the
>Rajsko A.C.
>
>All the prisoners of Monowitz A.C., the camp near the I.G. Farben works,
>are assembled on the parade ground in the evening. They are formed into
>columns of 1,000 prisoners each. Divisions of nurses are placed among the
>individual columns. The march leads through Bierun', Mikolo'w, Mokre
>Slaskie, and Przyszowice to Gleiwitz. 850 sick prisoners remain in the
>prisoners' infirmary, among them the assistant doctor and 18 doctors,
>including Dr. Czeslaw Jaworski.
>
>[...]
>
>January 19 [1945]
>
>The last large transport with 2,500 prisoners leaves the Auschwitz main
>camp at 1:OO A.M. under the supervision of SS First Lieutenant Wilhelm
>Reischenbeck. Near Rajsko the last column joins up with 1,000 prisoners
>from Birkenau. Behind the village of Brzeszcze the procession joins with a
>column of 1,948 prisoners from the Jawischowitz A.C. A good dozen
>prisoners who are sick and unable to march remain behind in Jawischowitz.
>The route of this last, very large column of prisoners is led to Wodzislaw
>in Silesia through the following villages: Rajsko, Go'ra, Miedz'na,
>C'wiklice, Pszczyna, Poremba, Brzeszcze, Studzionka, Bzie, Pawlowice,
>Jastrzebie, Mszana, and Wilchwy. During the march the columns of prisoners
>combine to form a large unit. On the march route and at the side of the
>road lie the corpses of the prisoners from the preceding columns who have
>been shot and killed. A prisoners from Posen counts 114 corpses. After the
>arrival in Wodzislaw the prisoners are loaded into open freight cars and
>transferred to Mauthausen. The transport arrives there on January 26.
>
>[...]
>
>At 4:00 A.M. the last group with 30 prisoner functionaries leaves
>Auschwitz. They arrive in Wodzislaw in Silesia on January 22, just as the
>prisoners in the last of the columns, which left the camp several hours
>before them, are being loaded into the open freight cars. 
>
>A renewed Allied air attack on the I.G. Farben works in Dwory near
>Auschwitz takes place in the morning hours. As a result, the water and
>electric services are cut off in the town of Auscwitz and in the camps.
>Only prioners unable to march and a good dozen prisoners who are caring
>for the sick are still in Auschwitz-Birkenau and Monowitz. 
>
>> This would support the notion the Germans had recognized the
>> inevitable defeat and over running by the advancing Soviet forces.   
>
>Considering that the Red Army had been on the offensive since 1943, it
>would be hard _not_ to see the writintg on the wall (cf. Cooper, _The
>German Army 1933-1945_, pp.451-452). But that by no means implies that the
>Germans were _prepared_ for the evacuatiom of the Auschwitz complex on
>Janusry 17, 1945. 
>
>Consider the following: On January 9 Guderian warned Hitler because the
>German forces on the Eastern Front were to spread out, and that the
>reserves were to small for such a large front, that the Eastern Front was
>"like a house of cards. If the front is broken through at one point, all
>the rest will collapse." Hitler, ignoring Guderian's advice to consolidate
>and reinforce German forces, replied that the Eastern Front "must help
>itself and make do with what it's got." (cf. Ibid p.479.) When the Janaury
>12, 1945, Soviet offensive from the Vistula was unleashed on the German
>central front, Guderian's dire warning came true: The front collapsed. 
>
>In this light it is then arguable that the Janaury 12 Soviet offensive-
>and the subsequent collapse of the Eastern Front -through the Germans- and
>any  plans of methodical evacuation of the Auschwitz complex -into
>complete disarray. 
>
>> So why hadn't the Germans dismantled the Cremas II, III and V by
>> 1/14/45?
>
>They tried, as can be seen by the following chain of events (_Auschwitz
>Chronicles, pp.731-805):
>
>"October 14 [1944] ...The Special Squad begins to break up the walls of
>Crematorium IV, which was destroyed during the uprising [on October 7]"
>
>"December 1 [1944] ...The Crematorium III demolition squad is created in
>Birkenau. It consists of 100 female prisoners whorked on the demolition of
>the crematorium.... At the same time a squad of male prisoners is put
>together for the demolition of the crematorium. The number of persons in
>it is unknown. The prisoners have to pound holes in the walls of the gas
>chambers for placement od dynamite charges (APMO, Dpr-Hd/3, p.134,
>Statements of former Female Prisoner Stanislawa Rachawalowa).
>
>"December 5 [1944] ...The women's squad employed in dismantling
>Crematorium III increases by 50, to 150.... The woodleand demolotion squad
>is created in Birkenau, to which 50 female prisoners are sent. The squad
>works on the grounds of the so-called big sauna and Crematorium IV. It
>must clear the grounds and fill in and cover with grass all the pits
>previously used for burning the corpses of those killed in the gas
>chambers. It must also sift through the human ash remains before they are
>strewn in the Vistula. Little trees are planted on the leveled ground....
>The male and female prisoners attempt to sabotage the orders of the SS and
>avoid whenever possible removing the ashes of the murdered before the pits
>are filled in, in the hope that these human remains- some incompletely
>burned bones -will in the near future prove the crime of genocide that was
>committed here."
>
>January 15 [1945] ...70 prisoners, former members of the Special Squad,
>work in Squad 104-B, the crematory disassembly squad, which is employed in
>the demolition of crematorium facilities. The disassembled facilities are
>brought to a siding of a connecting railroad track and are trnasported to
>Gross-Rosen.* The prisoners  knock holes in the walls of the crematorium
>buildings and the gas chambers for the placement of explosives.... 210
>prisoners work in the squads demolishing the barracks in the former
>women's camp** in B-I and B-III ('Mexico'). The squad is designated 105-B
>Barracks Demolition Squad B-I and B-III."
>
>"* Part of these faciities are found after the war on the so-called
>construction yard in Auschwitz."
>
>"** The demolition of some of the barracks in Women's Camp B-Ia-b can be
>seen on the aerial potographs made on January 14, 1945."
>
>"January 20 [1945] ...The SS division under Corporal Perschel blows up the
>already partly demolished Crematoriums II and III and abandons the camp."
>
>"January 23 [1945] ...An SS division arrives in the prisoner's infirmary
>camp in B-IIf in the afternoon...they set 30 storeroom barracks in the
>personal effects camp on fire.... These barracks burn for several days.
>After the liberation, 1,185,345 pieces of women's and men's outerwear,
>43,255 pairs of shoes, 13,694 carpets, and a large number of toothbrushes,
>shaving brushes, and other items such as protheses, glasses, etc., among
>other things are found in the six remaining partially burned barracks."
>
>"January 26 [1945] ...At 1:00 A.M. the SS squad with the task of
>eliminating the traces of SS crimes blows up Crematorium V, the last of
>the crematoriums in Birkenau."
>
>> Why would the Germans have spent so much time on dismantling of
>> the other sites instead of focusing on the alleged Cremas?
>
>Because these "other sites" were primarily the wharehouses where the
>plunder from the murdered victims were stored. But, of course, the Nazis
>_didn't_ spend all that much time "dismantling" these "other sites." The
>30 storeroom barracks, for instance, were simply torched at the last
>minute by the SS. 
>
>> Considering how the Soviets had set up a Extraordinary Commission
>> for the study of war crimes from day one of entering the camps, why
>> did the Soviets not take photos of the alleged Cremas, even in their
>> razed state? Certainly the Germans would not have had time to clear
>> the area of all traces. 
>
>Photos of the dynamited Kremas _were_ taken in 1945, after the liberation
>of the camp, as can be seen on pages 190-192 of _Auschwitz: a history in
>photographs_, as well as on page 261 of _Auschwitz: technique and
>operation of the gas chambers_. 
>
>In addition, the USAAF air photo, taken on February 19, 1945, shows that
>Kremas II and III were demolished by explosions. (cf. RG 373 Can F 5367,
>exp. 3185, _Air Photo Evidence_, p.66.)
>
>> So why are the alleged Cremas shown to be still existing on
>> 1/14/45 in an Allied aerial photo, and why hadn't the Germans razed
>> them way before knowing that defeat was imminent...
>
>Because they had not yet been dynamited, of course. In the panic and
>confusion of the German collapse- and the hasty evacuation of the
>Auschwitz complex -the Kremas weren't dynamited until January 20 (Kremas
>II and III) and January 26 (Krema V). 
>
>> ...and why didn't the Soviets take any photographs or present detailed
>forensic reports 
>> about what was or said to have been while they had the chance of timely
>investigation?
>> 
>But the Soviets _did_ take pictures. The Soviets (and the Poles) _did_
>"present detailed forensic reports." 
>
>cf. Sweibocka, _Auschwitz: a history in photographs_,
>pp.168,190-193,209-211,214-215.
>cf. Pressac, _Auschwitz: technique and operation of the gas chambers_,
>pp.50,233,261. 
>cf. Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_, p.45fn.  
>
>> Why?  Because the buildings shown in the Allied aerial photograph
>> of 1/14/45 weren't Cremas for the mass extermination of human beings,
>> that's why.   
>
>Considering that every single one of Moran's specious claims, half-truths,
>and outright lies above have been rebutted, I think not. The evidence that
>the Kremas at Birkenau were installations of mass murder that killed
>hundreds of thousands of people is irrefutable. 
>
>However, that Moran _does_ refute the enourmity- and compellingness -of
>this evidence is hardly suprising given that:
>
>The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
>blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
>He has generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
>intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point,
>generally, in taking the time to read and respond to his rantings. For
>detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom
>
>But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
>beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
>Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
>evidence of this please see:
>
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-beliefs.960704
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/intellectual-depravity
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq
>
>
>Mark

	So. After having to use a whole bottle of oxygen to keep him
going with his desperate endeavor, Mr.VanAlstine winds up his 420 line
response with some URL dossiers. 
	
	Are they relevant? Who knows. I'm not going to bother to look and
try to figure it out. Maybe Mr.VanAlstine will just come back and
explain it all.

>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 08:56:11 PDT 1996
Article: 71686 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Big Gas Chamber
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 11:31:48 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter) wrote:

>The book I'm currently reading describes a gas chamber that can
>kill 3,000 people within five minutes.  
>The following quotes come from pages 156-156 of: Approaches to 
>Auschwitz, by Rubenstein & Roth.
>
>	. . . . The prisoners were then taken to a huge underground
>	room two hundred yards long. . . . . In this room at thirty-yard
>	intervals were columns of sheet iron pipes with many perforations.
>	Within five minutes, three thousand people were dead.  Twenty
>	minutes later the ventilators had evacuated the gas. . . . . Before
>	cremation, hair was removed as was gold from the victims' teeth.
>	The yield in gold was between eighteen and twenty pounds a day. [1]
>
>MVA Clairification:
>
>This book contains information which is untrue.  
>	i.     gassing chambers were not that big.
>	ii.     hair was removed before gassing.
>
>Therefore: this book should not to be considered a suitable reference
>source for those people studying the Holocaust. 

	On the contrary, this book is ideal, suitable reference source
for anyone studying the Holocaust.
	It is the kinds of claims posted above that stand out as what the
general Holocaust facts are like.

	In fact, these super large capacity chambers were what made up
the stories in it's early stages, as with the hair sequence of before
or after.

	In fact this may be a good way to trace the appearances of
certain testimonies. At one time the hair was cut off after the
alleged gassings and now it's before. This would come after everyone
would have to recognize the Germans engaged in cutting off hair of the
new arrivals as a way of controlling body lice. Once this accounts for
all the hair, then something else, testimony wise, has to be added to
show that the hair was cut off before any gassing.

	
>	[1]	Rubenstein, Richard L. and  Roth, John K., Approaches
>		to Auschwitz - The Holocaust and its Legacy. Atlanta:
>		John Knox Press, 1987.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 08:56:12 PDT 1996
Article: 71688 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Palestinians
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 11:30:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># The end tally was about 1100 kids dead.
>
>No, that was the total number of Palestinians killed in the
>"Intifada" by Israeli forces. About 400 Israelis were also
>killed. A further 1,000 Palestinians were killed by other
>Palestinians (being suspected of cooperating with Israel).

	The total of kids shot under the age of twenty was over 900.
I don't know how many of the Israelis were killed. But it wasn't any
400. And none of them was killed by rocks. They shot kids throwing
rocks with their guns, from the safe distance. Bullets against rocks. 
Pathetic.
	The 1000 figure you give for the killing of collaborators is way
over what it was. The killing of collaborators was played up big by
Jews in our medias as relevant to the guns against rocks. Just another
element of chutzpa reasoning. I might even be able to retrieve some
full page ads by the likes of the ADL to show how they did. Might even
be able to recover a statement or two by Simon Wiesenthal. 
     And, what's wrong with killing collaborators? Collaborators tell
the Jews, the Jews use the information to kill Palestinians, the
Palestinians kill collaborators.


>You can trust a "revisionist" to lie every time, no matter
>what he's writing about. If you ask Tom "Streicher" Moran
>"what's the time, pal?", he'll lie simply out of habit.

	Announcing opponents as liars does not qualify as support for
whatever you said. It just shows you have mind of a child. 

>-Danny Keren.
>
> ---
>Tommy Moran pulls his Streicher schtick:
>
>
>
> From tm@pacificnet.net 
> Article: 81079 of alt.revisionism
> 
>        Keep an eye out for these Hebrew characteristics.
>Hebrews have a problem with controlling their body language. 
>They either jam their hands deep into their pockets or fold their 
>arms in front of them in a self hugging stance, to keep their
>hands from flailing about. They also shuffle in place.
>        Ah yes the huggems, the Larry King syndrome.
>
>
>
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 08:56:13 PDT 1996
Article: 71690 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Swiss II
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 11:33:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	The Jews have collected billions of dollars from Germany with the
Holocaust premise. Billions to individuals, billions to Israel.
Perhaps 100,$$$,$$$,$$$ + altogether. Billions more have been
extracrted from the United States, totaling over 100 billion. 
	Now where has much of this money gone? Could it be too far out to
suggest billions have been nestled away into secret Swiss accounts?  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 08:56:13 PDT 1996
Article: 71691 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Sara Schwartz
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 11:33:16 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Moron is just upset because the International Deniers Conference
is being held in a small garbage can by the side of the road, so he
doesn't get a travel allowance.
 
Sara

"I do not mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy."
                 Samuel Butler



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 08:56:14 PDT 1996
Article: 71692 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Mr."Mc Fee"
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 11:51:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Since that is what you seem to do (Giwer, the idiot Moron, and whoever
in Raven;s gangs of misfits is feeding you your rubbish), why don't
you tell us?

Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
	



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 08:56:15 PDT 1996
Article: 71693 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demolition of Auschwitz evidence?
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 11:35:04 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
>>  >   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>  >  tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  >  
>>  >  # Considering how the Soviets had set up a Extraordinary Commission
>>  >  # for the study of war crimes from day one of entering the camps, why
>>  >  # did the Soviets not take photos of the alleged Cremas, even in their
>>  >  # razed state?
>>  >  
>>  >  Of course they did. See Pressac's book.
>>  >  
>>  >  # and why didn't the Soviets take any photographs
>>  >  
>>  >  They did.
>>  
>>  	Apparently l'il tommy is unaware of the evidence presented at the 
>>  Nuremberg trial.  They not only took photographs but made movies as well.

	If rblackmore hadn't posted this I probably wouldn't have seen
it, since I only click up Mr.Edeiken's stuff when I'm in the mood for
a little sport.

	Mr. Edeiken, I'm interested in these photos, and the movies. How
come they are not used, referred to, in the Holocasut sales package? I
take it your not referring to anything of Buchenwald or Dachau, but
are referring to any taken by the Soviets, as that's what the subject
is about. 

 
>>  >  Poor, poor old Tommy.
>>  
>>  	If you add "ignorant" you have hit the nail on the head.
>>  
>>  	--YFE
>>  
>>>>>
>I thought you people were uncomfortable referring to Nuremberg?



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 08:56:15 PDT 1996
Article: 71694 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Mr."Mc Fee"
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 11:52:42 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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You wouldn't bet that if you knew what I had said.  Get one of your
feeds to translate it for you and get back to us.

Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 08:56:16 PDT 1996
Article: 71695 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 11:34:42 GMT
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You know, you're right, Tom.  We also have the Coca-Cola museum.  All
those lynchings, and all the Coca-Cola Company can think of is their
fizzy soft drink.  And don't even get me started on the Georgia Music
Hall of Fame.

Bill


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 08:56:17 PDT 1996
Article: 71882 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shhh! Don't mention it
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 13:12:57 GMT
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>: >tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: >: 
>: >: 	How many people would think that the main gas said to have been
>: >: used for extermination, the gas that is at the center of the Auschwitz
>: >: story, was, in Holocaust reality, pellets made for fumigation
>: >: purposes.
>: >
>: >Um...anybody who's ever read a single book on the topic?
>
>: 	How many is "anybody"?
>
>Dunno, Tom.  Possibly everybody in the world except you.  It's 
>never been a secret that Zyklon was originally designed for
>fumigation.
>
>: 	Try fitting it in with this part of the post:
>: 
>: 	"It's 'funny' that of all the talk about the Holocaust and
>: Auschwitz, which appears in myriads in and on our medias, rarely are
>: any details discussed."
>
>Since that part of the post is untrue, I'm not sure how to fit it.

	The Holocaust topic is aired one way or another every week in or
on our medias. It's been going on for a couple of decades now with the
intensity caused by the revisionist threat and the need to use it to
cover up Zionist actvities. Details are left out. Maybe you could show
where, say, "pellets" are ever mentioned. If you took the hundreds of
different times it was mentioned in either the N.Y. or L.A. Times you
wouldn't be able to find "pellets" or "Zyklon B" mentioned anywhere.

	You might think your flim flaming people, but any new people who
are reading this will recognize they never knew what the agent of mass
extermination was.

	"Gas chambers" is about all that is mentioned in the papers.
Nothing else, lest the numbers of course.

	You keep telling people the sky is not blue on a clear day, and
I'll do what I do.  

>Bill



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 08:56:18 PDT 1996
Article: 71883 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Add this one to the "Discovery Channel"
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 13:13:58 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:


>In the November 1994 issue of "World War II", a bi-monthly
>magazine  published in the United States by Cowles History Group,
>it was maintained in an article on the "Final Solution" that:
>
>"The death camp tolls included Maidanek's 750,000, Chelmno's
>1,135,000, and Auschwitz and its sub-camps' 4,000,000." (Page 58)
>
>That's right ladies and gentlemen-you read correctly: 4,000,000!
>Let's see now:  4,000,000 Auschwitz
>                         1,135,000 Chelmno
>                            750,000 Maidanek
>                       _________
>                        5,885,000
>
>However, they forgot to include the estimated death figures for
>Treblinka, Sobibor, Mauthausen, Gross Rosen, Dachau, Natzweiler,
>Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Oranienburg, Neuengamme, 
>Belzec, Dora, Stutthof, Flossenburg, Ravensbrueck, Theresienstadt, etc.,
>not to forget the Einsatzgruppen......
	
	This is a whole topic in it's self. The on going distortions in
the face of the accepted revisions. This is pretty much the way it's
been all along. There seems to be no end to the variations of
corruptness.

>Michael E. Haskew, Editor
>World War II Magazine
>Cowles History Group
>Cowles Magazines Inc.,
>602 S. King St. Suite 300
>Leesburg, Va. 22075

>Be sure to get back to us after you set them straight.

	I'm going to drop him a note. But don't expect a reply. The whole
American system is under the fear of the wicked witch. They don't want
to take a chance on a foot stompin self righteous show of outraged
indignation being directed against them that could lead to a lose of
position. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 08:56:18 PDT 1996
Article: 71884 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DAVID IRVING to tour Australia????
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 13:17:57 GMT
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ncrccjc@ibm.net (Bernie Farber) wrote:

>
>>>>>IRVING TACKLES PM ON SPEECH
>>>>>
>>>>>Right-Wing British historian David Irving has challenged Prime
>>>>>Minister John Howard to back his claims on freedom of speech by
>>>>>allowing him to visit Australia.
>
>Bernie Farber responds:
>
>For accuracy , David irving has described himself as a "mild fascist".
>Again for accuracy sake, referring to David irving as a "historian", is
>really insulting to all th legitimate academic historians out there.
>David irving should be referred to as a "holocaust denier".

	Among his other books he is a historian. A researcher and a
writer. With some of his books he could be classified as a "denier". A
denier is a Historian. Many historical topics get written about by
many different historians. Some even contradict or show a more
accurate depiction as opposed to others. There is nothing wrong with
that. 
	As I personally see it, a denier is out to set the record
straight and the anti-denier is out to keep it as it is, the lie. That
is the meat of the whole thing. The quest for truth. Where does it
stop? Where does it have it's limits? When is it appropriate or no?
The Holocaust deserves nothing more. No special circumstances. No
special privilege. The Holocaust is 99% a lie and there are people out
to set the record straight, be for their own reasons, to care for
historical accuracy or to see to it that the story isn't used any more
for extortion, or to justify Zionist actions or to solicit special
treatment for Jews in general.
	You keep commenting on historical subjects, shed some tears, the
deniers will keep researching, digging, probing, finding, and
presenting. Not too far down the road the world is going to know. 
	David Irving will be read hundreds of years down the road.
Thousands even. People will rely on his stuff as contemporary
narrative. Maybe they will find a little scrap of paper someplace with
your stuff on it and use it to show a certain mental state.  



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 08:56:19 PDT 1996
Article: 71886 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stick with Historical Facts
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 13:24:43 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree submits:
>
>Proven Historical Facts about Auschwitz.
>
>Let's hear from the deniers. 
>
>Prove this is not true.
>
>Chuck 

	Chuck supplies his "historical facts".  "Lifton" page this, page
that.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 09:53:03 PDT 1996
Article: 45766 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DAVID IRVING to tour Australia????
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 15:35:14 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <53486o$nh6@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rcgraves@ix.netcom.com
>(Rich Graves) wrote:
>
>> ncrccjc@ibm.net (Bernie Farber) writes:
>> >
>> >>>>>IRVING TACKLES PM ON SPEECH
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Right-Wing British historian David Irving has challenged Prime
>> >>>>>Minister John Howard to back his claims on freedom of speech by
>> >>>>>allowing him to visit Australia.
>> >
>> >For accuracy , David irving has described himself as a "mild fascist".
>> 
>> Do you have a reference for this? In his response to Shallit, Irving
>> denies ever saying this. 
>
>"In 1981 Irving, a self-described 'moderate fascist,' established his own
>right-wing political party, founded on his belief he was meant to be a
>future leader of Britain." (Lipstadt, _Denying the Holocaust_, p.161.) 

	Lipstadt said a lot of things. Does she accept the challenge for
debate? Will she ever put herself into the position to answer for
inquiry on accountablitiy of the contents of her book?  No.


>The source for this quote was:
>
>_Canadian Jewish News_, Mar. 16, 1989; _London Jewish Chronicle, May 27, 1983.
>
>(cf. Ibid. note 20, p.260.) 
>
>Mark
>
>posted/e-mailed
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 11:40:01 PDT 1996
Article: 71906 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust $$$$$ Holocaust $$$$$ Holocaust $$$$$
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 15:26:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	          "U.S. to Launch Inquiry Into Nazi Loot"
                        L.A.Times, Oct. 5, 1996

Review: Document search
will try to pin down U.S.
role in what happened to 
assets, many seized 
>from  Jews.

	Washington - The Clinton administration on Friday ordered an
urgent search of half-century-old documents to try to determine what
happened to Nazi gold and other wealth - much of it stolen from
victims of the Holocaust - in the hectic days following WW II.
	State Department spokesman Nicholas Burns said the review is
intended to 'provide a greater understanding of the role played by the
United States and other countries' in handling Nazi loot, much of it
believed to be held in numbered Swiss bank accounts.
	The U.S. review comes amid a revived international quest to
recover gold the Nazis stole from conquered nations, Jewish businesses
and individual Jews ...
	...
	Burns said the State Department decided to conduct the U.S. study
at the urging of Sen. Alfonse M. D'Amato (R- N.Y.)
	The U.S. review could aid Jewish organizations in their efforts
to trace the jewelry, melted-down gold teeth and other assets that the
Nazis stole from Holocaust victims.
	... 
	Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate director of the Simon Wiesenthal
Center in L.A., said the study should help orgs. like his and the
World Jewish Congress in that endeavor.
	...
	Cooper said assets worth between $30 billion and $90 billion in
current dollars ended up in Switzerland ...
	"Gold teeth, wedding bands, other jewelry, etc ... Maybe its not
all identifiable, but it should be clear the gold was sold by other
than its lawful owners.
	... Some documents from that era have already been made public.
	For instance, the Simon Wiesenthal Center obtained a memo ... The
memo noted that Heinrich Himmler, chief of Hitler's SS, the
organization that organized and carried out the extermination of 6
million European Jews, as well as about 5 million others, used the
German national bank to "convert SS loot into orthodox financial
accounts. Other documents showed a concerted effort to trace those and
other Nazi assets.
	Cooper said assets worth between $30 billion and $90 billion in
current dollars ended up in Switzerland ...
	"Gold teeth, wedding bands, other jewelry, etc ... Maybe its not
all identifiable, but it should be clear the gold was sold by other
than its lawful owners. he saw 75 deliveries of valuables from the SS,
...
	...
	A %20 billion class-action lawsuit was filed Thursday in Brooklyn
federal court on behalf of Holocaust survivors against Swiss banks for
allegedly refusing to return victims' money, jewelry and other assets.
	Defendants include Union Bank of Switzerland ... and more than
100 unnamed banking institutions. 
	The exact number in the potential class is unknown, the lawsuit
stated.

========================================================================

Washington - The Clinton administration on Friday ordered an urgent
search ...

	["urgent"?  Get the $$$$$$$$$$ before revisionism is accepted on
the global scale.]

State Department spokesman Nicholas Burns said the review is intended
to 'provide a greater understanding of the role played by the United
States ...  

	[Maybe they can show the 'Evil U.S.', make us pay.]

The U.S. review comes amid a revived international quest to recover
gold the Nazis stole from conquered nations, Jewish businesses and
individual Jews ...	

	["International quest" = U.S./England/Jews]

The U.S. review could aid Jewish organizations in their efforts to
trace the jewelry, melted-down gold teeth and other assets that the
Nazis stole from Holocaust victims.

	[Defining, sorting and proving this should be a real show of
chutzpa.]

Cooper said assets worth between $30 billion and $90 billion in
current dollars ended up in Switzerland ...

	["$30 billion" or three times that, "$90 billion. Now that's
conforming to the rest of Holocaust numerology. In a prior report, a
Swiss spokesman said the Jews shouldn't expect "trillions, or even
millions".]

	"Gold teeth, wedding bands, other jewelry, etc ... Maybe its not
all identifiable, but it should be clear the gold was sold by other
than its lawful owners."

	[No problem. The Jews will be trying some of their wacky logic.
It should be interesting if a book is ever written about all this,
complete with the inside intrigues.]

A %20 billion class-action lawsuit was filed Thursday in Brooklyn
federal court on behalf of Holocaust survivors against Swiss banks ...
	
	[Not only is our State Department going to be tied up in all the
work to get the Jews some gold and $$,$$$,$$$,$$$, but our courts.] 

	WHERES THE GOLD? WHERES THE MONEY? GIMME, GIMME, GIMME.

That's what the constant Jewish bellowing of the Holocaust story is
all about.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 11:40:02 PDT 1996
Article: 71907 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: RBLACKMORE LIES AGAIN... Re: Add this one to the "Discovery Channel"
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 15:31:40 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 22
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rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <53426m$38q@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>
>> >   rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) writes:
>> >  In article <532m3n$p12@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote
>> >  > 
>> >  >
>> >>>>>  First, since this time you have bothered to provide a reference, I will
>> >  need to obtain a copy of the magazine to confirm the veracity of your
>> >  claims.
>> 
>> Where do you want me to send it to you?
>>  Be sure to get back to us after you set them straight.
>
>You're not getting my address. Digitize the article and email it to me.
>Perhaps you could also send me a response to the question as to WHY YOU
>LIED when you claimed that the Discovery Channel knowingly mislead the
>public.

	I wonder if the Discovery Channel was informed of any erroneous
output if they would announce a correction?  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 11:40:04 PDT 1996
Article: 71911 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demolition of Auschwitz evidence?
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 16:05:20 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 31
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <3254f600.478177@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

Mr. VanAlstine's introduction to his 200 line response:

>Here we have the Moran(tm) mindlessly continuing on with his Holocaust
>denial. His specious claims, half-truths, and outright lies are presented
>for no other reason (besides being an ignorant bufoon) than the malicious
>distortion of the historical record to disparge the Holocaust and its
>victims. Such puerile tactics are the stock-in-trade of Holocuast deniers,
>Nazi apologists, and anti-Semites like Moran.

Mr.VanAlstine's closing statement:
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-beliefs.960704
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/intellectual-depravity
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq


>Mark

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 11:40:05 PDT 1996
Article: 71913 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'The strain on the furnaces was colossal'
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 16:25:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) related:

	'The strain on the furnaces was colossal' 

	Moran ponders:
	The strain on Mr.Keren's brain cell must be colossal.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 11:40:05 PDT 1996
Article: 71914 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More Giwerese from Tommy
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 16:19:25 GMT
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Joel Rosenberg  wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>> 
>> 	Among his other books [David Irving] is a historian. 
>
>No, not even when he's among his other books is David Irving a
>historian.  
>
>
>He holds no academic credentials in history or anything else; he does
>not submit his work for peer review; he is not bound by nor does he
>adhere to codes of professional conduct of historians.

	"He holds no academic credentials ..." 
Argumantum ad vericundium: availing the validity of ones argument by
citing it as coming from an accredited authority. I wonder what
Mr.Rosenberg would have to reply with if we should consider any
history written by degreed Germans during the Nazi era? 

	"... nor does he adhere to codes of professional conduct of
historians." But does Mr.Rosenberg say what? Absolutely not.

>
>Were he to actually practice the profession -- which requires both
>more honesty and opennness than Irving finds comfortable -- his lack
>of credentials would make less of a difference than it does under the
>actual circumstances.

	Announcement of personal opinion. Only.

>As it is, his primary claim to fame is his ability to get original
>documents from [so-called ex-] Nazis.  This would be a significant
>contribution to history if Irving were to actually share the
>originals.

	Perhaps Mr.Rosenberg could itemize and clarify, or does he think
everyone should accept his opinion as fact.
 
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry, to receive the latest version of my FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject line.
	I found Mr.Rosenbergs self proclaimation of "geekitry" to be
fact. Check it out.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct  5 14:19:34 PDT 1996
Article: 71943 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Haphazard state of affairs
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 16:05:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 20
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

Mr.VanAlstine's opening statement to his 320 line reply:
>Here we have yet another example of Holocaust denial by the Moran (tm).
>His specious claims, innuendo, and unsupports assertions are presented for
>no other reason than the malicious distortion of the historical record so
>as to disparge the Holocaust and its victims. Such puerile tactics are the
>stock-in-trade of Holocuast deniers, anti-Semites, and Nazi apologists
>like the Moran (tm).


Mr.VanAlstine's closing statement:
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-beliefs.960704
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/intellectual-depravity
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq

>Mark



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct  7 10:05:39 PDT 1996
Article: 72337 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OBSERVATIONS
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 15:40:48 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Message-ID: <326f2206.16225888@199.0.216.204>
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Mr. McClelland,

	You don't have to spend too much time with Mr.Keren. He'll still
be out here even after the likes of the ADL and the Simon Wiesenthal
Center are compelled to admit the Holocaust story is a lie.
	He is having trouble though. It is evident in that he has to sign
off all the time with the "Nazi" word or some other slogan.
	
										Tom Moran


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct  7 10:05:39 PDT 1996
Article: 72341 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Cracow forensic study:another sick joke
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 14:38:38 GMT
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	This Crakow report did a number of comparative studies and
presents about seven charts. The report as presented by Nizkor is
about twelve pages long. The report made no use, comment or conclusion
on any of the findings along the way nor in its "Final Remarks" below.
In spite of all the testing and analyzing, all the Cracow team cared
to summarize as to the whole thing is:

	
"Final Remarks

The  present study shows that in spite of the passage  of  a
considerable period of time (over 45 years) in the walls  of
the  facilities  which  once were in contact  with  hydrogen
cyanide  the vestigial amounts of the combinations  of  this
constituent  of Zyklon B have been preserved. This  is  also
true  of  the ruins of the former gas chambers. The  cyanide
compounds  occur in the building materials only locally,  in
the  places  where the conditions arose for their  formation
and persistence for such a long time."

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct  7 12:20:43 PDT 1996
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
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From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:48 PDT 1996
Article: 72459 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Cracow forensic study
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 00:19:43 GMT
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 posts:

>On 7 Oct 1996, Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:
>
>     One of Green's preferate report is the 1994 'scientific' report
>     produced by the Institute  of Forensic Research, Cracow. 
>
>Mr. Beaulieu, if you wish to refer to me in a polite manner, I would
>prefer to be addressed as "Mr. Green."
>
>
>[Mr. Beaulieu's history of the now discredited Leuchter report deleted.]
>     
>     the cracow report:
>
>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research
>/post-leuchter.report
>   
>
>
>     Now we have this 'scientific report'. A first remark, the Auschwitz
>     Museum has evidently no reason to conceed the gas chamber story:
>     millions of visitors have come there, and millions of others will
>     continue to bring currencies in Poland. The staff of the Auschwitz
>     museum can hardly do anything else than fight for their job. 
>
>Not to mention that fact that the "gas chamber story" happens to be true.
>Mr. Beaulieu has done nothing to show otherwise.

	Well here goes Mr.Green again. Naturally he starts off with an
announcement.

>     [ ad hominems against the Crakow team deleted.]
>     
>     But since the blue stain is present in large spot, more blue at some
>     places, I certanly don't believe that Leuchter chose a delousing
>     sample that he saw as less blue than another. For the krema however,
>     Leuchter's samples were purely taken in a random way since no
>     apparent blue stain exist there. For the Cracow team, to not
>     displeased their silent partner, they were certanly not
>     interest to take a too much blue sample in the delousing facility.
>     
>If Mr. Beaulieu read the Report more carefully, he would realize that the
>Crakow Team intentionally discriminated against Prussian-blue in their
>chemical analysis.  Neither Mr. Beaulieu, Leuchter, Germar Rudolf, nor
>anyone else has successfully explained why the Prussian-blue stains exist.
>Perhaps, Mr. Beaulieu could remind us of Mr. Rudolf's success in producing
>Prussian-blue.  It should be noted here that even Leuchter found cyanides
>in the homicidal gassing chambers (although, I've seen no evidence that he
>understood how to measure such a thing).

	
	Neither did the Cracow team. In fact the report mentions a few
times, that localized concentrations existed for most of their test
without ever once even making an attempt at why. 
	Mr.Green and I have had a go around about this before. I
mentioned some theories. (My summary of the report as it was 5 or 6
months ago posted to the thread.) Nor did they make any attempt at
saying what relevance it all would have. Mr.Green has never offered
anything as relevance.
	Maybe below he will try his "background levels" trick.

>      The first weird aspect in this story is the delay. It is
>      unbelievable that the Auschwitz museum didn't ask for a forensic
>      study right after the Leuchter report, let say in 1989. They had all
>      the reasons to be hostiles to revisionism, and I've no doubt they
>      checked immediatelly in 1989 if Leuchter's sample in the delousing
>      facility contained really the residual prussian blue that was
>      claimed. The thing was easy since a video, produced almost at the
>      same time, showed the place were Leuchter took his sample. Leuchter
>      asked back those day for an international commission to check his
>      results if people wanted to contest it. However, the Auscwhitz
>      museum was silencious. One year, two years, three years, and then a
>      weak attempt to disclaimed the Leuchter report, but unconvin-
>      cing. Another year, two years, and revisionism appeared as a growing
>      movement. The odd here is that another forensic inquiry made by a
>      german chimist, Germa Rudolph, confirmed the Leuchter report during
>      this period.
>
>Mr. Beaulieu, why should anyone take Leuchter seriously.  His study is
>simply more evidence of the growthg of pseudoscience.     Rudolf does
>seem to have some chemical training with the Max Planck Institute.  It
>should be noted that Remer's claim that the research in question was
>supported by the Max Planck Institute is a blatant misrepresentation.

	Mr.Beaulieu comes up a lot good logical questions and this is one
of them. And to this Mr.Green excuses the delay in any study as the
result of no one taking him seriously, when in fact the report states
the study was done to refute Leuchter. 


>       The first obvious thing when one look at the Cracow study is that 
>       different materials like brick, mortar or concrete to not react to 
>       the same level with CN- ions. It is thus possible for someone to 
>       make a first study and detect the elements of a building where the 
>       presence of ferro-cyhanide is much important.
>     
>       The Cracow team still use the 2 traditionnal arguments, first the 
>       gassing delay and second rain. A rebutal of these one is given in the 
>       FAQ 2 that I posted today.
>
>I doubt it, but let's handle it there.  The important thing to realize
>about the Crakow Report is that they detected cyanides above background
>levels in the gas chambers.  The presence of cyanides is consisitent
>with the historical evidence.

	Well here it is. The "background levels". Levels or no levels in
barracks is what Mr.Green is referring to as "background levels" which
is something he wouldn't try to pull off on his class mates of
professors. One does not take samples from implicit areas as a means
of determining background levels. Especially in under the
circumstances of what was being tested. The gas chambers, either under
ground or the footings of those at ground level subjected to acid rain
and other dynamics totally different from the inside of buildings that
are sheltered.

     
>      For this statement now:
>     
>     >the  commission  two days. The laboratory  analysis  of  the
>     >material   collected  was  conducted  -   to   ensure   full
>     >objectivity  -  by another group of Institute workers.  They
>     
>     I'm not contesting that, but I find a bit ridicoulous to say that a pure
>     objectivity existed since the problem is not about who analysed the 
>     samples, but who took it and where.
>
>Perhaps, Mr. Beaulieu would care to contrast this procedure with the
>methods used by Rudolf and Leuchter to insure objectivity.
>     
>     Now, we are offered a ridicoulous claim:
>     
>     >J.  Bailer (1) writes in the collective work "Amoklauf gegen
>     >die  Wirklichkeit" that the formation of  Prussian  blue  in
>     >bricks   is  simply  improbable;  however,  he  takes   into
>     >consideration  the  possibility  that  the  walls   of   the
>     >delousing  room  were coated with this dye as  a  paint.  It
>     >should be added that this blue coloration does not appear on
>     >the walls of all the delousing rooms.
>     
>       It is really easy to determine if the color of a wall is due to painting
>     or to the presence of ferro-cyhanide: one has just to scatch the wall to
>     know it. If the blue spots outside the delousing facility were due to
>     the constant fumigations (as Pressac early noticed) the Cracow team could
>     have show it in a more convincing way. They know that this outside blue
>     texture is due to the use of Zyklon B, and this is why, rather than to 
>     present this kind of evidence they choose to quote an author who may have 
>     not even visited Birkenau. 
>
>Perhaps Mr. Beaulieu would like to be the first to explain how the
>Prussian-blue in question formed from the use of Zyklon-B.  Perhaps, he
>can report on Mr. Rudolf's success in making Prussian-blue.

	Incredible. Instead of making any comment on this, I am just
reposting the following that was just posted four days ago and should
still be on the screen, and, was never responded to by Mr.Green.

======================================================================
	From alt.rev. post "Holocaust dependents methodology" 10/3

Moran had posted "Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth" with
Holocaust defendants trying to get away with name calling, tangents,
gasping extended commentary and the introduction of irrelevant
questions, which were nothing more than attempts at bluffing.

Mr.Green had ask, in an attempted bluff:
>>> >Perhaps Mr. Moran can explain the process by which Prussian blue is
>>> >formed.  Unfortunately, his hero Rudolf failed to do so.

Moran replied: 
>>>         CN compound combines with iron. Now what?

Mr.Green never came back with an answer to the "Now what?", but
Mr.Harmon jumped in to try his pair of deuces:
>>If you said this on an exam, i'd flunk you.

>>There's a lot more to it than that, tom.

Moran replied:
>	Should we keep it on the valance level or should we take it all
>the way down to the chromodynamics behind that? Once we get past that,
>are you going to have some relevance? 

	And then - no more Mr.Harmon.
	
	No more Mr.Harmon and no more Mr.Green. This is because they
tried to bluff. They tried their little thing, but couldn't meet the
challenge of what relevance their little expressions of
intellectuality
would have had. They tried to flim flam the reader into thinking they
were high minded chemists and this should support whatever else they
tried during the exchange.  
======================================================================

>     They were there for a forensic study, don't tell me that
>     they were not able, in front of a camera, to scratch the wall and 
>     show their point in a more convincing way. Of course this blue stain 
>     do not appear outside for each delousing facility, simply because they 
>     were not necessarelly used as often for fumigations. I can't explain why 
>     this penetration capacity exist, but  it was mentionned by the 
>     manufacturer. However, in spite of their effort, we have here a good 
>     demonstration of how prussian blue resist to acid rain even after 5 
>     decades.
>
>Mr. Beaulieu, please quote where Degesch mentions formation of
>Prussian-blue.  What's at issue is not Prussian-blue, but rather
>water-soluble cyanide compounds.

	Well yikes. Now suddenly Prussian blue is no longer relevant.

>       Now the institute try to show how the presence of ferro-cyhanide traces
>      in the walls is only due to homicidal gassing:
>
>Mr. Beaulieu, I suggest you read the report more carefully.  These do
>NOT refer to ferro-cyanide traces.  You are wrong about that.  They
>refer to measured cyanide ion concentrations specifically discriminating
>against ferro-cyanides!  This table shows negative results for
>background levels.

	Well here he goes again with the "background levels" again.
Background levels are to determine to what extent a localized finding
may be as opposed to a general levels that may be found. Also the
report does mention Prussian blue. Also, Mr.Green's suggestion that
Mr.Beaulieu "read the report more carefully" is the exact same line he
used on me. 
     
>     > In the table l:
>     >TABLE I.  CONCENTRATION OF CYANIDE IONS IN CONTROL SAMPLES
>     >TAKEN FROM        DWELLING ACCOMODATIONS, WHICH WERE
>     >PROBABLY FUMIGATED WITH ZYKLON B  ONLY ONCE (IN CONNECTION
>     >WITH TYPHOID EPIDEMIC IN 1942)
>     >
>     >Site       Block No      Sample No       Concentration of
>     >                                         CN- in ug/kg
>     >------------------------------------------------------------
>     >Auschwitz    3            9              0
>     >                         10              0
>     >------------------------------------------------------------
>     >             8           11              0
>     >                         12              0
>     >------------------------------------------------------------
>     >Birkenau     3           60              0
>     >                         61              0
>     >                         62              0
>     >                         63              0
>     >------------------------------------------------------------
>     
>       After that, in table II, they show that in the cellar where the 
>      first gassing allegedly took place (bloc 11), that samples contains 
>      up to 20 ug/kg.  The reader must notice here that later, the samples 
>      taken in the kremas will show are different materials absorbe in 
>      different ways HCN. Here, the Cracow team _doesnt_ say what material 
>      is involved, neither if it was taken from an outside wall, a wall that 
>      was repaint, or anything whatsover.
>
>I read in the report:
>
>     Samples,  about  1-2  g in weight, were  taken  by  chipping
>     pieces   from   bricks  and  concrete  or   scrapping   off,
>     particularly  in  the case of plaster and also  mortar.  The
>     materials  taken  were secured in plastic containers  marked
>     with serial numbers. All these activities were recorded  and
>     documented with photographs. Work connected with  them  took
>     the  commission  two days. The laboratory  analysis  of  the
>     material   collected  was  conducted  -   to   ensure   full
>     objectivity  -  by another group of Institute workers.  
>
>I also note:
>
>     The  results of analyses are presented in Tables I-IV.  They
>     unequivocally show that the cyanide compounds occur  in  all
>     the  facilities that, according to the source data, were  in
>     contact  with them. On the other hand, they do not occur  in
>     dwelling accomodations, which was shown by means of  control
>     samples.  The  concentrations of cyanide  compounds  in  the
>     samples  collected from one and the same  room  or  building
>     show  great  differences. This indicates that the conditions
>     that favour the formation of stable compounds as a result of
>     the  reaction of hydrogen cyanide with the components of the
>     walls,  occur locally. In this connection it takes  quite  a
>     large number of samples from a given facility to give  us  a
>     chance  to  come  upon  this sort of local  accumulation  of
>     cyanide compounds.
>
>
>Mr. Beaulieu continues his misunderstnding regarding ferrocynanides:
>
>      Furthermore, Danuta Czech's chronicle show that Hoess asked for a general
>      delousing there (9 july 1943) for women camp and one for men's camp a bit
>      later. Since this one involved a single gasing also, we should expect the
>      presence of ferro-cyhanide traces in those 'random' (sic) samples taken
>      from barracks in table 1, and there's no reason to find more zyklon B
>      in a barrack that was allegedly used for a single homicidal gassing and
>      another one that was desinfected once or twice during the war. But the
>      Cracow datas don't show this. Now you know why the nature of the sample is
>      not given here, nor the exact location in the barracks: because they 
>      spoted in advance were and what they had to grab to get the necessary 
>      results.  If not, I wonder why a homicidal gassing leaves more cyhanide 
>      compounds than a proven delousing gassing in another barrack.
>
>Mr. Beaulieu's example proves exactly the opposite of what he thinks it
>does and, in fact gives more support to address Mr. Giwer's criticism.
>Mr. Beaulieu has acknowleged that a single delousing had negative
>results whereas, the gas chambers have positive results.  Whatever
>occurred in these chambers was clearly more than a routine fumigation!
>Can someone check Mr. Beaulieu's reference here?  It is extremely useful
>in making our case.
>     
>        I must say here that the Cracow team's members, if they were aware 
>        about the differences between materials and their approximative 
>        capacity of adsorp- tion, didn't control neither every aspect: 
>        I believe that they took the samples as they could, a video was 
>        taken, despite this one is not available to people in general. 
>        But despite they cared to present an appearent objectivity, there 
>        was a way to drive to some extent the results toward a
>        direction: mortar react more than plaster an brick. This is also 
>        probably why they don't give the nature of the samples for the 
>        cremas in table  III.  table IV now.
>
>On the contrary, it was the previous studies that were flawed in that
>they did not know where to look for cyanide traces.  The traces are
>there, consistent with the historical use.
>
>       [Mr. Beaulieu's summary of his specious arguments snipped]
>     
>     
>        Last, but not the least, the bath house B1-A. The best I can remember
>      the video, there was 2 delousing rooms in Birkenau, I don't know if this
>      building is the one that Leuchter visited, but we will assume that. Here
>      they gives the material of each sample (table IV) and the only one which
>      is relevant (in part) is a sample taken inside, allegedly from a blue
>      stain spot, a plaster sample. Plaster react far less with HCN than mortar
>      according to the Cracow team. It seems here that they took this sample
>      from a very-very poorly blue spot, I mean, it could have been very lightly
>      blue, but this unique data contradict so much tre previous results
>      (Leuchter and Rudolph) that such a 'discovery', 6 to 7 years after the
>      Leuchter report is somewhat incredible. Indeed, the quantity of 
>      ferro-cyhanide is almost comparable to samples taken at places where 
>      there's no visible blue spots (the kremas). 
>
>Mr. Beaulieu, I urge you to read the report more carefully.
>Ferrocyanides are irrelevent unless you can prove their origin.

	"Read the report more carefully" again. And again he states the
Prussian blue is irrelevant. What Mr.Green says about the "origin" can
be applied to whatever they found at the "Crema" footings. There is
absolutely nothing in the report that can prove, or even tries to
prove any of the incredibly minute traces of cyanide "compounds"
originated from Zyklon B.

>      This is why revisionist insist so much for an open
>      inquiry: if really those people havn't anything to hide, why not a mixed
>      team going there to take samples in front of a camera to solve in front of
>      the whole world this issue?  The video that showed Leuchter taking his
>      samples was sold back those days. I'm still asking if this 'blue plaster
>      compound' was that blue.
>     
>              Now, the next part, CO2 compete with HCN to dissolve in water.
>      Ok. But if it is really what happened in the cremas, I wonder to know
>      why they are not able to find FAR MUCH ferro-cyhanide traces in the delou-
>      sing facility? They are now giving all the reasons in the world to show
>      that we must expect 1,000 times less ferro-cyhanide traces in the cremas,
>      acid rain, CO2, the gassing time, and so on, and they are just claiming
>      with the other sample that in the delousing facility the cyhanide remains
>      are just a bit more important???
>
=================================================================
>Mr. Beaulieu, I urge you to read the report more carefully.
>Ferrocyanides are irrelevent unless you can prove their origin.
=================================================================
>     
>        Lets just consider basical facts: if you put together 500 persons in a
>      200 meter square room, you may expect a fantastic temperature increase,
>      such a number of people in a small room produce a lot of heat. Miloslav
>      Bilik have already done the calculus a while ago, it was about an increase
>      of 5 degrees each 20 seconds untill heat lost from the roof become too
>      much important. All those people during 20-30 minutes perspire a lot. A a
>      temperature of 35 or 40 celcius (more than 100 faranheit) especially when
>      they see people dying, they try to escape, their heart beat at an 
>      incredible rate. Have you ever perspire in a sauna? We have 2 
>      characteristics: an underground room (a cellar)is often humid, much 
>      more than a delousing faci- lity, but to that we must add human sweat, 
>      human sweat that is vaporizing, and that is then sticking on the walls 
>      during the condensation process: 500 people who perspire just 1/4 liter 
>      of water in 25 minutes gives 125 liters. At 35 degrees (celcius) in a 
>      room of 500 meter cube, you just reach a 100% humidity with 20 kg of 
>      water in the air. After that water will condense
>      everywhere, the wall, the ceiling, human skin. Obviously the gassing story
>      imply that those walls were much more humid than delousing facilitie's 
>      walls.
>
>I haven't checked your numbers here, but most of it seems reasonable.  I
>distrust the 1/4 liter/25 min., but I accept the general conclusion of
>humidity.
>
>      Water favorized the reaction of CN- ions. 
>
>Which reactions of CN- ions?
>
>      There's always a bit of water, but more you have water, more you can 
>      dissolve ions.
>
>True, but the more CO2, the less you can disolve, which was the point of
>the CO2 measurements.
>     
>       The failure of the Cracow study here is that they want the reader 
>       to assume that both kinds of walls have an equivalent quantity of 
>       water / meter square in their scenario. That is not the case. Lets 
>       take just their own samples.  In the case of Table V, 48 hours 
>       after an experimental gassing, the volatile part of HCN ( the gas 
>       which was adsorbed but which didn't react with iron or
>       postassium) is no longer there, but the concentration for a dry sample of
>       old mortar is 176 ug, while a wetted sample has a 2700 ug concentration.
>       In the case of an experimental  gassing with 1% CO2, the dry part is 
>       about 1000 ug and the wetted 244 ug. In this case, the dry part have 
>       not yet released the gas that will not react, something that explain 
>       the difference with the 176 ug. 
>
>       However, according to the chemist Rothe, CN- react very quickly to 
>       form prussian blue in a wet sample. 
>
>Citation please.
>
>      Thus, if we compare in a scenario a dry wall from a delousing facility 
>      and a wet wall from the leichenkeller, even in presence of a lot of 
>      CO2 we may expect at least equivalent conditions, if not better 
>      considions for such a reaction in the 'gas chamber'.
>
>Prussian-blue was not detected in the Crakow study; so your argument
>makes no sense.
>     
>      The last part of the report is another screw. Table VII shows how CN-
>      ions are removed from a material like plaster. Indeed, water may remove
>      potassium cyhanide from a sample, but not ferro-cyhanide, which was the
>      component for which revisionist had an interest in 1988. Evidently, the %
>      of ferro-cyhanide is more important if a material contain more iron 
>      than another one, here they chose a plaster sample rather than a brick 
>      or mortar sample.
>
>Again, Mr. Beaulieu has not explained the origin of Prussian-blue
>stains; thus their relevance is not established.  
>
>To summarize:
>
>The Crackow team has demonstrated that HCN was present in the homicidal
>gas chambers at levels above background.  Deniers have no explanation for 
>the presence of HCN in a facility built after the typhoid epidemic at
>levels above background.
>
>If the barracks in which they measured no HCN were never fumigated, why did
>they measure a higher level in the homicidal gas chambers?
>
>If the barracks were fumigated, why did they measure a higher level in the
>homicidal gas chambers?  Mr. Beaulieu has helped by providing evidence
>that the barracks were indeed fumigated; so mere fumigation is clearly
>not sufficient to explain the cyanide traces found in the homicidal gas
>chambers.  I am interested in verification of his source.
>
>It should be noted that the researchers used a calibrated method and that
>they discriminated against Prussian blue whose origin is not clear.
>Leuchter and Rudolf did not do so.
>
>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/post-leuchter.report  
>     
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green     
>     
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud   Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>Anti-aircraft missiles don't bring down commercial 747's; people do.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:49 PDT 1996
Article: 72460 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Cracow forensic study:another sick joke
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 00:20:15 GMT
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	This is a summary I did of the Cracow report a number of months
ago. It is posted here in conjunction with a response to Mr.Green's
reply to the posted article.
=====================================================================

>From  "Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today".

	As we can see from the tests, the agent HCN does not fair well
under time and weather. Even after a limited flushing with distilled
water and a months time, 100% of the agent can disappear.
	So how do we explain the finding of any HCN after all these
years and 100 feet of acid rain? We don't. No HCN was found, as is
clear from the report. Only cyanide "compounds", "groups" or "ions"
were detected.
	Cyanide compounds are found naturally. Carbon and Nitrogen are
relatively common elements that have a wide range of easy combinate
capabilities with other elements and each other. Cyanide compounds can
be found under a list of organic molecules. They can be organic
constituents of life, and are in fact even produced by organic
processes, such as fair amounts are found in cherry pits.
	Nitrogen and Carbon are readily found in soils. In fact
Nitrogen is one of the major proportions of earth's air. Carbon and
Nitrogen can combine with each other quite easily in geological,
natural formats. CN, cyanide, can attach to a whole array of other
elements and molecules and thus come under the heading "cyanide
compound" or "group" with a full array of variations.
	Chemical equations of various cyanide compounds are extensive
and some show that when tests are done to detect Cyanides starting off
with chemicals in a water solution the other side of the equation
shows that even the H2O has been broken down and its components H and
O reincorporated into something else.
	HCN is derived commercially from coke production processes, which
were and are extensive to this day. Any HCN not syphoned off during
the production process and not recovered would go along with the
general emissions, thus becoming part of the 100 feet of acid rain to
be deposited on and in the ground. 	
	Most likely whatever was found during these tests was probably
CN compounds created and/or deposited within a short time from the
time the samples were taken. New ones precipitate from the material
like the white niter or ammonium nitrate that we can see under bridges
and tunnels, or in caves, only to wash away and be replaced.

	The report does not make any conclusions on why such radically
different results can be arrived at from the same room or piece of
material, when we can suggest this is analogous to naturally occurring
precipitous action that tend to congregate in patches, having found
localized conditions for easy precipitation from within the interior
of the structures material.
	The report does not make a stab at explaining why such low
traces were found in fumigation chambers, in some cases being zero,
when we would expect to find high levels. Judging by photographs of
still extent fumigation chambers, the interiors of these facilities
have been protected from weather conditions.
	On the other hand, the highest amounts of cyanide compounds
found, outside of that detected in the Prussian blue stains in the
fumigation chambers and the bathhouse, are those found in Crema I and
II, and the amounts said to have been found in the cellar of "block
11", all underground structures built of concrete, prone to dampness
and thus prime places for the dynamics of precipitous deposit to
occur.

	As far as the Leuchter Report or the Polish report are
concerned, including the paragraphs with the "revisionist" word, none
of it is sufficient to deny or confirm any part of the Holocaust
story. 
	
                                              Tom Moran	 
	

	See other post in thread under 'tom moran' for the less than
substantial, even non-commital "Final Remarks" for the study.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:50 PDT 1996
Article: 72461 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Denial: Like a poisonous weed...
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 00:21:02 GMT
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 posts:

>Archive/File: people/c/conot.robert.e/like-a-poisonous-weed
>Last-modifed: 1993/03/07
>
>In reading Robert Conot's introduction to his 1983 work "Justice at
>Nuremberg," I took note of the final paragraphs, and decided to add them to
>the archives. Speaking to the Nuremberg tribunal in his opening address, 
>"Justice Jackson remarked; `What makes this inquest significant is that 
>these prisoners represent sinister influences that will lurk in the world 
>long after their bodies have returned to dust.'"

	Bango. What the hapless McVay has posted here is the revelation
that there were doubts expressed at the very time of the trials.
Imagine, right at the time proximate of the alleged event itself.

	I wonder if Justice Jackson could have been talking about some
words spoken similar to this:

"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
political promises subject to broad interpretation. It was not a list
of pleasing platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency
required it. It was the foundation of the American system of law and
justice and [Robert Taft] was repelled by the picture of his country
discarding those Constitutional precepts in order to punish a
vanquished enemy." 

-- U.S. President, John F. Kennedy 
John Kennedy, Profiles in Courage (New York: Harper and Row, 1964),
p.189-190. 

	At the very least, Nizkor mentality offers up the statement by
Jackson as a authority of opinion. And so, here is John F. Kennedy. 
	Then there are considerable others that have expressed similar
words as his.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:51 PDT 1996
Article: 72464 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi Persecution and Murder of Polish Priests
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 00:20:18 GMT
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>Extract from charge number 17 made by the Polish government against
>the defendants indicted before the International Military Tribunal
>[Trial of Major War Criminals, Vol. XXXII, p. 134-135]
>---------------------------------------------------------------

	I would bet there is very little else behind this "extract" as to
what the Poles submitted in support of the 'evidence' introduced at
Nuremberg.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:52 PDT 1996
Article: 72469 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DAVID IRVING to tour Australia????
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 posts:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>> 
>> 	Lipstadt said a lot of things. Does she accept the challenge for
>> debate? Will she ever put herself into the position to answer for
>> inquiry on accountablitiy of the contents of her book?  No.
>
>Giwerese aside, of course she is open to inquiry on her writings;
>they've been widely reviewed, as well as peer-reviewed.    

	I see Mr.Rosenberg has replaced the wording "answer for
inquiry on accountablitiy" with the word "reviewed" in order to
respond.

>What bothers the deniers is that she studies holocaust denial, rather
>than reacting to their red herrings.
	
	She may "study" denial, in her own way, but she will not debate,
nor would she meet the challenge to answer to accountablility of what
she says about people in her book.
	I understand now that it has been published in Britain it is
subject to its contents being challenged in the courts, which I
believe it is going to be.
	
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry, to receive the latest version of my FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject line.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  8 08:34:52 PDT 1996
Article: 72506 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Cracow forensic study:another sick joke
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 03:13:01 GMT
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	Random House Dictionary

"background: 6. physics - the totality of effects that tend to obscure
a phenomenon under investigation and above which the phenomenon must
be detected."

	Mr.Green keeps on with stating that test done to barracks are
what constitutes "background" levels to show the totality of the
possible phenonenon.

	Background levels taken properly, would be to take samples from a
number of places and then compare the readings from the intended
sample to the average of these other readings.

	Proper background readings in the case at hand would be to take
samples from the footings and general ground in the general area,
places that would be subjected to the same conditions as the target
samples and any readings from inside barracks that are sheltered from
the weather would be far removed from representing these conditions.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  8 12:55:10 PDT 1996
Article: 72690 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 100 to 0, The Jewish Preference for Odds
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 15:33:37 GMT
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	During the first Palestinian Intifadah, Childrens War against the
Jewish suppression in Gaza and the West Bank, a film was circulated in
the U.S. called the "Days of Rage". It was about the Palestinian side
of the story. It met a lot of resistance by the Jews, with the usual
charges of "anti-Semitism" and the film was banned for the most part. 
	Due to the amount of publicity that was leaking out, the film was
arranged to be shown on TV. The Jews demanded that they have a say
during the presentation which they called "wrap around coverage". As
it turned out they wanted to have a film shown also. 
	There was also a six member panel set up that was to have three
for the Palestinian side and three for the Jewish side. As that turned
out, it was more like five for the Jewish side and one lone James
Zogby for the Palestinians.

	This is the way the Jews like it. The gang bang technique. Afraid
to face it one on one or on equal footing.   

	Below is a list of the myriad of Holocaust museums, organizations
and centers that are set up and waiting to give us their side of the
myth. Yet in spite of all this, the Jews are very active in trying to
stamp out any discussion about the validity of the story.

	A pathetic situation. If I, Tom Moran, was ethnocentrically
fixated on any heritage in my history, I would be ashamed if any
members of this heritage were engaged in what the Jews get into.

	Here we have the Jewish centers to give their side of the story.
There are over a hundred in the United States alone. In spite of all
this the Jews can't face the music for debate or opposition. A sorry,
pathetic situation.

	From states to towns to universities:						

 	
A LIVING MEMORIAL TO THE HOLOCAUST -- MUSEUM OF JEWISH HERITAGE 

JEWISH ARCHIVES/HOLOCAUST RESOURCE CENTER 

AMERICAN FRIENDS OF AMCHA 

AMERICAN FRIENDS OF THE GHETTO FIGHTERS' HOUSE 

AMERICAN GATHERING OF JEWISH HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS 

AMERICAN RED CROSS HOLOCAUST AND WAR VICTIMS TRACING AND INFORMATION
CENTER 

AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR YAD VASHEM 

AUSCHWITZ STUDY FOUNDATION, INC. 

BALTIMORE JEWISH COUNCIL 

BEIT LOHAMEI HAGHETAOT --THE GHETTO FIGHTER'S HOUSE 

BETH SHALOM HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL & EDUCATION CENTRE 

CENTER FOR HOLOCAUST AND GENOCIDE STUDIES --RAMAPO COLLEGE 

CENTER FOR HOLOCAUST STUDIES BROOKDALE COMMUNITY COLLEGE 

CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF THE CHILD 

COLLEGE OF ST. ELIZABETH / HOLOCAUST EDUCATION RESOURCE CENTER 

DAYTON HOLOCAUST RESOURCE CENTER 

UNIVERSITY CENTER FOR HOLOCAUST STUDY 

EL PASO HOLOCAUST MUSEUM AND STUDY CENTER 

FACING HISTORY AND OURSELVES NATIONAL FOUNDATION, INC. 

FORTUNOFF VIDEO ARCHIVE FOR HOLOCAUST TESTIMONIES 

FRED R. CRAWFORD WITNESS TO THE HOLOCAUST PROJECT --EMORY UNIVERSITY 

GEORGIA COMMISSION ON THE HOLOCAUST 

GREATER CINCINNATI INTERFAITH HOLOCAUST FOUNDATION 

HALINA WIND PRESTON HOLOCAUST EDUCATION CENTER 

HATIKVAH HOLOCAUST EDUCATION & RESOURCE CENTER 

HOLOCAUST AWARENESS INSTITUTE UNIVERSITY OF DENVER 

HOLOCAUST AWARENESS MUSEUM 

HOLOCAUST CENTER OF THE NORTH SHORE JEWISH FEDERATION 

HOLOCAUST CENTER OF THE UNITED JEWISH FEDERATION OF GREATER PITTSBURGH


HOLOCAUST CHILD SURVIVORS OF CONNECTICUT, INC. 

HOLOCAUST DOCUMENTATION AND EDUCATION CENTER, INC. 

HOLOCAUST EDUCATION AND MEMORIAL CENTRE OF TORONTO 

HOLOCAUST EDUCATION CENTER HIROSHIMA, JAPAN 

HOLOCAUST HUMAN RIGHTS CENTER OF MAINE 

HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL AND EDUCATIONAL CENTER OF NASSAU COUNTY 

HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL COMMITTEE OF BROOKLYN 

HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL FOUNDATION OF ILLINOIS 

HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL RESOURCE & EDUCATION CENTER OF CENTRAL FLORIDA 

HOLOCAUST MUSEUM AND LEARNING CENTER/ST. LOUIS 

HOLOCAUST MUSEUM HOUSTON 

HOLOCAUST ORAL HISTORY ARCHIVE OF GRATZ COLLEGE 

HOLOCAUST ORAL HISTORY PROJECT 

HOLOCAUST RESOURCE CENTER
 
HOLOCAUST RESOURCE CENTER -- KEENE STATE COLLEGE 

HOLOCAUST RESOURCE CENTER AND ARCHIVES -- QUEENSBOROUGH COMMUNITY
COLLEGE 

HOLOCAUST RESOURCE CENTER OF BUFFALO 

HOLOCAUST RESOURCE CENTER OF GREATER TOLEDO 

HOLOCAUST RESOURCE CENTER OF KEAN COLLEGE 

HOLOCAUST RESOURCE CENTER OF THE JCRC OF SOUTH JERSEY 

HOLOCAUST RESOURCE CENTER OF THE JEWISH FEDERATION OF GREATER
CLIFTON-PASSAIC 

HOLOCAUST RESOURCE CENTER THE RICHARD STOCKTON COLLEGE OF NEW JERSEY 

HOLOCAUST STUDIES COMMITTEE -- MIDDLE TENNESSEE STATE UNIVERSITY 

HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS AND FRIENDS IN PURSUIT OF JUSTICE, INC. 

INTERFAITH COUNCIL ON THE HOLOCAUST 

JEWISH FOUNDATION FOR CHRISTIAN RESCUERS/ADL 

JEWISH HOLOCAUST MUSEUM AND RESEARCH CENTRE -- VICTORIA, AUSTRALIA 

JOSEPH H. AND BELLE R. BRAUN CENTER OF HOLOCAUST STUDIES / ADL 

LEO BAECK INSTITUTE 

MANIA NUDEL HOLOCAUST LEARNING CENTER 

MARTYRS MEMORIAL AND MUSEUM OF THE HOLOCAUST OF THE JEWISH FEDERATION
COUNCIL 

METROWEST HOLOCAUST EDUCATION & REMEMBRANCE COUNCIL 

MIDWEST CENTER FOR HOLOCAUST EDUCATION 

NEVADA GOVERNOR'S ADVISORY COUNCIL ON EDUCATION RELATING TO THE
HOLOCAUST 

NEW JERSEY COMMISSION ON HOLOCAUST EDUCATION 

NORTH CAROLINA COUNCIL ON THE HOLOCAUST 

OREGON HOLOCAUST RESOURCE CENTER 

RABBI LEIB GELIEBTER MEMORIAL FOUNDATION, INC. 

RHODE ISLAND HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: An Educational Outreach Center


ROCKLAND CENTER FOR HOLOCAUST STUDIES, INC. 

SIMON WIESENTHAL CENTER 

SONOMA STATE UNIVERSITY HOLOCAUST STUDIES CENTER 

SOUTH CAROLINA COUNCIL ON THE HOLOCAUST 

SOUTHERN INSTITUTE FOR EDUCATION AND RESEARCH AT TULANE UNIVERSITY 

SURVIVORS OF THE SHOAH VISUAL HISTORY FOUNDATION 

TAMPA BAY HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM AND EDUCATIONAL CENTER 

TEMPLE JUDEA OF MANHASSET HOLOCAUST RESOURCE CENTER 

TENNESSEE HOLOCAUST COMMISSION 

THE DALLAS MEMORIAL CENTER FOR HOLOCAUST STUDIES 

THE HAWAII HOLOCAUST PROJECT 

THE HOLOCAUST CENTER OF NORTHERN CALIFORNIA 

THE JULIUS AND DOROTHY KOPPELMAN HOLOCAUST/GENOCIDE RESOURCE CENTER
RIDER UNIVERSITY 

THE MONTREAL HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL CENTRE 

THE NATIONAL CATHOLIC CENTER FOR HOLOCAUST EDUCATION 

THE PHILADELPHIA CENTER ON THE HOLOCAUST, GENOCIDE AND HUMAN RIGHTS 

THE ROSENTHAL INSTITUTE FOR HOLOCAUST STUDIES/CUNY 

THE VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY HOLOCAUST ART COLLECTION 

TRIBUTE TO THE DANES AND OTHER RESCUERS 

UNITED STATES HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM 

VANCOUVER HOLOCAUST CENTRE FOR EDUCATION AND REMEMBRANCE 

WASHINGTON STATE HOLOCAUST EDUCATION RESOURCE CENTER 

WESTCHESTER HOLOCAUST COMMISSION 

YAD VASHEM -- THE HOLOCAUST MARTYRS' AND HEROES' REMEMBRANCE AUTHORITY


ZELL HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL/ZELL CENTER FOR HOLOCAUST STUDIES OF SPERTUS
INSTITUTE OF JEWISH STUDIES 




From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct  8 17:00:43 PDT 1996
Article: 72724 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The other 6,000,000?
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 03:05:34 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>				
>
>	Where are names of those non-Jews, the other 4, 5 or 6 million
>said to have murdered by the Germans?

	In fact, this claim sorely stresses the Jewish side of the story.
The side everyone hears about, every day. The one that all the books
are written about. The side that all the Holocaust museums are focused
on. The one to which all the $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$ went.

	All the accounting is focused on Jewish loses, and when it comes
time to account for the other 6,000,000 there is no place left to
squeeze them into the story without having to reshuffle the accounts
of the 99% Jewish side. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  9 00:09:55 PDT 1996
Article: 72785 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israeli Arabs
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 00:08:34 GMT
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>I dont have an agenda. But I am curious about something. What is the
>legal status of Palestinians who are born within the borders of Israel.
>Are they considered Israeli citizens? Are they allowed to vote or serve
>in the military? What is the status of Arabic Christians or Europaen
>Christians who are also born and live in Israel? I have heard that only
>persons of the Hebrew faith have full civil rights in Israel. Is this
>so? Thanks in advance. walt

	Israel has no document like our Constitution. The reason they
never formally put one forth is so there would be nothing to look at
to see if it was being violated.

	Basically the Arabs that live in Israel are citizens. As to what
positions they have, it's not at the top. Their the ones left over
>from  the intital siezure of the land by the Jews. In order to become a
citizen, you must show a genetic background, namely a Jewish mother. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  9 08:07:09 PDT 1996
Article: 72793 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Cracow forensic study:another sick joke
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 00:32:42 GMT
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>Hello,
>
>Well, I'll repost my critique of Mr. Moran's critique since he still has
>nothing relevant to add.  I suspect it would be wise of Mr. Moran to
>leave this discussion to Mr. Beaulieu.
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>
>
>In article <3238105c.2850442@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>>It should be noted that the researchers used a calibrated method and that
>>>they discriminated against Prussian blue whose origin is not clear.
>>>Leuchter and Rudolf did not do so.
>>
>>		Prussian blue "origins not clear"? You mean when they found
>>it in high concentrations outside of known fumigation facilities it
>>was "not clear" as to its origin?. 
>
>Perhaps Mr. Moran can explain the process by which Prussian blue is
>formed.  Unfortunately, his hero Rudolf failed to do so.
>
>[snip]
>
>>"The  present study shows that in spite of the passage  of  a
>>considerable period of time (over 45 years) in the walls  of
>>the  facilities  which  once were in contact  with  hydrogen
>>cyanide  the vestigial amounts of the combinations  of  this
>>constituent  of Zyklon B have been preserved. This  is  also
>>true  of  the ruins of the former gas chambers. The  cyanide
>>compounds  occur in the building materials only locally,  in
>>the  places  where the conditions arose for their  formation
>>and persistence for such a long time."
>>	
>>
>>	This is the statement I gave during the first exchange on it.
>>
>>	As we can see from the tests, the agent HCN does not fair well
>>under time and weather. Even after a limited flushing with distilled
>>water and a months time, 100% of the agent can disappear.
>>	So how do we explain the finding of any HCN after all these
>>years and 100 feet of acid rain? We don't. No HCN was found, as is
>>clear from the report. Only cyanide "compounds", "groups" or "ions"
>>were detected.
>
>Mr. Moran displays his ignorance of solution equilibria for the world to
>see.  Is Rudolf's knowlege of chemistry as poor as Mr. Moran's?
>
>>	Cyanide compounds are found naturally. Carbon and Nitrogen are
>>relatively common elements that have a wide range of easy combinant
>>capablities with other elements and each other. Cyanide compounds can
>>be found under a list of organic molecules. They can be organic
>>constituants of life, and are in fact even produced by organic
>>processes, such as fair amounts are found in cherry pits.
>
>Mr. Moran has posted this claim before yet he never informed us of how
>many cherry trees were growing at Birkenau and why the pits only ended
>up in places where cyanide was known to have been used.
>
>>	Nitrogen and Carbon are readily found in soils. In fact
>>Nitrogen is one of the major proportions of earth's air. Carbon and
>>Nitrogen can combine with each other quite easily in geological,
>>natural formats. CN, cyanide, can attach to a whole array of other
>>elements and molecules and thus come under the heading "cyanide
>>compound" or "group" with a full array of variations.
>
>Why were they not prsent in the barracks?
>
>>	Chemical equations of various cyanide compounds are extensive
>>and some show that when tests are done to detect Cyanides starting off
>>with chemicals in a water solution the other side of the equation
>>shows that even the H2O has been broken down and its components H and
>>O reincorporated into something else.  	
>
>Mr. Moran's ignorance of simple acid-base chemistry is noted.
>
>[snip]
>
>>	On the other hand, the highest amounts of cyanide compounds
>>found, outside of that detected in the Prussian blue stains in the
>>fumigation chambers and the bathhouse, are those found in Crema I and
>>II, and the amounts said to have been found in the cellar of "block
>>11", all underground structures built of concrete, prone to dampness
>>and thus prime places for the dynamics of precipitous deposit to
>>occur.
>
>Mr. Moran's evidence that these places were damper than the barracks
>is...
>
>Mr. Moran's explanation of the source of the cyanide that is
>precipitously depositing itself selectively in places where there is a
>historical record of the use of cyanide and not other places is...
>
>>	As far as the Leuchter Report or the Polish report are
>>concerned, including the paragraphs with the "revisionist" word, none
>>of it is sufficient to deny or confirm any part of the Holocaust
>>story. 
>
>The Crakow report is not proof in and of itself, but it is corroborating
>evidence.  When all the best evidence leads to the same conclusion it is
>not unreasonable to suggest that that conclusion is the best explanation
>of the facts.
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>
>PS I better save this response for when Mr. Moran reposts his nonsense
>1 month from now.

	I think your response needs no reply. I trust what is said and
the record. 
	Just one point to highlight. Looks like Mr.Green has let go fo
the "background" level hypothesis.
	And just one little challenge. 
	Mr.Green. Would you send me a list of names of your class mates
and professors so I can get a second opinion on your professional
reply?
>-- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud   Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>Anti-aircraft missiles don't bring down commercial 747's; people do.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  9 08:07:10 PDT 1996
Article: 72794 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: So what's wrong with hating?
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 00:39:43 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <325ef424.2130870@199.0.216.204>
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	Moran loves and hates.

Moran loves onions, but hates liver.

Moran hates TV.

Moran loves filet mignon.

Moran hates chuck steak.

Moran loves most bugs, but hates mosquitos and fleas.

Moran hates traffic.

Moran hates Zionist mentality.

Moran is so so on people but he loves animals.

Moran hates pineapple on pizza pie.

Moran loves plants.

Moran hates the U.S. system for bowing to Jewish activity.

Moran loves freedom of speech.

Moran hates censoring mentalities.

Moran loves vanilla ice cream.

Moran hates the U.S. Congress.

Moran is so so on baseball but loves tennis and boxing.

Moran hates weak and cowardly.

Moran loves wisdom and hates ignorance.


Moran has the capacity to love and hate everything, depending on time
and circumstances. Sometimes the hate comes and goes. Sometimes it
sticks around.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  9 08:07:10 PDT 1996
Article: 72850 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is Holocaust denial?
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 00:25:49 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <325cf04a.1145021@199.0.216.204>
References: <32592E2C.4A44@ccnis.net>
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>This speech was given by Stephanie Brumlik in 1990 at a Duke University 
>rally:
>
>                             Revisionism in Review
>
>     This last week an ad appeared in the "Chronicle."  It was bought
>and paid for by Bradley Smith of the Committee for Open Debate on the
>Holocaust.  It is an outright denial of the realities of the Holocaust. 
>How do we know what the reality is?  The Holocaust is probably the best
>documented event of recent history.  If you doubt that, just call the
>National Archives in Washington, D.C. and ask for a copy of their
>catalog on the captured Nazi documents!  At best, the ad is filled with
>half-truths.  I want to briefly review it with you.  I won't be able to
>expose all the half-truths and lies in the time allotted but I hope to
>be able to show you the technique that was used. 

	Annie, now that you got that raving facsimile of Debra Lipstadts
approach to proving the Holocaust is true, maybe you can address some
of the post out here that challenges it. 
	Now Annie, don't go focusing on whatever you think you can
contend with and carry on little chit chats in threads, come on out
and do the real thing.
                                                      Tom Moran


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  9 13:25:44 PDT 1996
Article: 72893 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OBSERVATIONS
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 17:30:46 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Message-ID: <326cdfbf.11622459@199.0.216.204>
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>In article , Daniel Keren
> writes
>>redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:
>>

>What as in "Ho ho ho!" laughed father Christmas? This is getting
>absolutely absurd. How far are you going to stretch this tale? We are
>long past the point of credulity or rational debate. Did they stop the
>planes close to the train and have a hovering laugh?

	Fergus, you are taking note of the practices. If you ever post
anything and it gets a reply, give a response if it deserves one.
After that, just let the record sit. Do not spend a lot of energy
trying to convince these people. Do not expect to convince them. They
are but a little insignificant speck. Whether or not they accept
anything out here means nothing. 

                                                   Tom Moran


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  9 13:25:45 PDT 1996
Article: 72895 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is Holocaust denial?
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 17:13:19 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <326bdcb8.10847742@199.0.216.204>
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>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> >This speech was given by Stephanie Brumlik in 1990 at a Duke University> >rally:
>> >
>> >                             Revisionism in Review
>> >
>> >     This last week an ad appeared in the "Chronicle."  It was bought
>> >and paid for by Bradley Smith of the Committee for Open Debate on the
>> >Holocaust.  It is an outright denial of the realities of the Holocaust.
>> >How do we know what the reality is?  The Holocaust is probably the best> >documented event of recent history.  If you doubt that, just call the> >National Archives in Washington, D.C. and ask for a copy of their
>> >catalog on the captured Nazi documents!  At best, the ad is filled with> >half-truths.  I want to briefly review it with you.  I won't be able to> >expose all the half-truths and lies in the time allotted but I hope to> >be able to show you the technique that was used.
>> 
>>         Annie, now that you got that raving facsimile of Debra Lipstadts> approach to proving the Holocaust is true, maybe you can address some> of the post out here that challenges it.
>>         Now Annie, don't go focusing on whatever you think you can
>> contend with and carry on little chit chats in threads, come on out
>> and do the real thing.
>>                                                       Tom Moran
>
>Sure, Tom--I'd be happy to. . .If I knew what the heck you're talking
>about.
>
>If I missed a post where you challenged something, please repost it.

	Just come out and committ yourself to substance Annie. If, say, I
post something, come out and committ your intellect to undoing it. Is
that clear enough?


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct  9 17:33:14 PDT 1996
Article: 72935 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Strange Holocaust "gas" properties
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 14:02:52 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Of course as far as the general person on the street knows about
the Holocasut story, the "gas" factor is the number one, if not the
only thing they know about the Holocaust story.

	Yet how many would know that this gas can be picked up, scattered
around, poured and could rattle in cans?

	Holocaust gas comes in pieces, "pellets". They could have any
shape, the Holocaust gas being sort of disc shaped.

	You could take about ten of these gases and drill holes right
through the center, take about 6 of them and wire them together into a
cylinder, then take two more and string them on a wire about the
cylinder width apart, then do the other 2 the same way, put the two
pairs of gases on a table facing each other longwise, take the pieces
of gas wired into a cylinder and place one end on the wire seperating
two of the gases and the other end on the wire between the other two,
and you have yourself a neat little car.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct 10 09:30:07 PDT 1996
Article: 73014 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust dependants methodology
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 14:21:59 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 45
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	A sample of Mr.Green's responding to the first time I posted,
"Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth"

----------------------------------------------------------------------
	Direct quotes from Mr.Green

1. No, it's a huge difference! You just have no concept of scale.

2. Why don't you read the values they measured instead of speculating?

3. That's because you're very ignorant of science.  Spectroscopy can
be used quantitatively, but as you note the decided to use a more
precise method than the rudimentary spectrometer taht they appeared to
have available to them.

4. Read the graphs!  The results are there!

5. Care to provide some evidence for this blatent lie?

6. Reread their detction method little Tommy.  Do you know what a
cyanide ion is little Tommy?

7. Mr. Moran makes things up as he goes along.

8. Re read the report.

9. Could you rephrase this into English please.

10. Oops! 10 points to Mr. Moran if he can find my mistake.

11. Care to provide some evidence Mr. Moran?  You are lying; you're
qualifier doesn't change the fact that you are trying to get away with
a lie.

12. Not only is it feasible, it was done as you would know if you read
the paper a bit more carefully.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
10/7/96, Mr.Green's comment on Mr.Beaulieu's posting an article with
reference to "Green's".

"Mr. Beaulieu, if you wish to refer to me in a polite manner, I would
prefer to be addressed as 'Mr. Green.'"
                           ---------------


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct 10 09:30:07 PDT 1996
Article: 73024 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For the enrichment of NIZKOR's archives!
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:34:05 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <326c08ac.5012785@199.0.216.204>
References: <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net> <53h4kk$ags@access5.digex.net> <53hjjq$4g1@news1.total.net> <325CB093.41C6@itsa.ucsf.edu> <53ivo0$rh5@access5.digex.net>
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>In article <325CB093.41C6@itsa.ucsf.edu>,
>Brian Harmon   wrote:
>>Judith Toth wrote about Mike Steins .sig:
>>
>>> TOTH ANSWERS:  So according to you and your "employer" there is no
>>> other truth except YOURS? The only data, the only figures, the only
>>> History in existence written by you?  Whom do you take human beings
>>> for? Fools? Do you think we are all your hordes of sheep with no
>>> brains at all?
>>
>>I wonder about an individual who wouldn't know humor even 
>>when it hits him squarely in the face.
>
>    A number of clues suggest Ms. Toth's native language is not English.

	A whole slue of postings by Mr.Stein shows that he is
ethnocentrically insane and whatever he writes is in defense of all
that which is stated in Hebrew.

>>Besides that, you misunderstood what his .sig says even if one
>>takes it at face value.
>>
>>It says:
>>
>>> --
>>> Mike Stein                     The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>>> POB 10420                      Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>>> Arlington, VA  22210           position of my employer.
>>==========
>>
>>It does not say that he and his employer believe that the only
>>real truth is that decreed by Mike Stein.
>
>    It was even more fun when I was posting from a Department of Labor
>machine, and my .sig read, "The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>Therefore it could not possibly be the official position or policy of the
>United States Government."
>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct 10 09:30:08 PDT 1996
Article: 73029 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For the enrichment of NIZKOR's archives!
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:18:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <32690573.4187262@199.0.216.204>
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>I wonder about an individual who wouldn't know humor even 
>when it hits him squarely in the face.
>
>It's a joke, Toth.  If you can't see that, I doubt you have
>the mental agility to carry on an intelligent conversation, let
>alone asses the validity of the historical record.

	When one idiot makes a stupid statement and gets exposed, another
one jumps in to say it was all a joke.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct 10 09:30:09 PDT 1996
Article: 73033 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics
Subject: Who Flys, Who Doesn't - U.S. Airlines/Israel
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:52:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 31
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:73033 alt.conspiracy:97611

					
	A few weeks ago the "Spotlight" newspaper published an article
citing proposed security measures at U.S. airports. The article
related how a Jew from Israel flew in to act as an advisor. 

	His suggestion was to have a data base with a list of names of
those suspected of being terrorists or possible terrorist, and barring
them from taking flights.

          	Today, Oct. 10, 1996, New York Times,

     "Clinton Signs Wide-Ranging Measure on Airport Security"

	In addition to other measures cited, the Times says;

	"The bill also authorizes augmenting existing airline computer
systems with so-called passenger profiling capacity, so that airlines
could compare information in their computers -- names, addresses,
travel histories and the like -- with existing government lists of
suspected terrorists or terrorists traits to single out passengers for
extra security."

	And who should we assume is and has been feeding this government
computer base with the names of people with "terrorist traits"?

	The ADL, The Simon Wiesenthal Center, The World Jewish Congress,
Mossad, and well ... all the rest.

	First the special singling out for extra security checks, and
then, once that settles in, the outright banning of anyone on the list
to even travel at all. 				


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct 10 09:30:10 PDT 1996
Article: 73034 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 3,000,000 Prewar Polish Jews?
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:58:27 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <326f1cd8.10176668@199.0.216.204>
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>Subject: 3,000,000 Prewar Polish Jews?
>From: tom moran, tm@pacificnet.net
>Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 12:25:05 GMT
>
>tom moran wrote:
>>
>>	Half of the 6,000,000 Jews said to have been exterminated are
>>said to have been from Poland.
>
>[snip]
>
>>	Three million Jews in prewar Poland? 
>
>
>Atually more, according to the Polish governement's
>own census data. I have posted the figures before, but 
>do not have them with me.
>
>Would you like to see them again?

	You should just post them without asking. Whatever it is, when
the gas chamber story falls, everything else goes with it.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct 10 12:17:25 PDT 1996
Article: 161600 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <326a0764.4684663@199.0.216.204>
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From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct 10 18:08:19 PDT 1996
Article: 73129 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 100 to 0, The Jewish Preference for Odds
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:33:32 GMT
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>CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF THE CHILD 

	This entry is not to be taken as to include any Palestinian
children.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct 10 18:08:20 PDT 1996
Article: 73130 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For the enrichment of NIZKOR's archives!
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:52:36 GMT
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>====================================================================
>TOTH ANSWERS TO MIKE STEIN:
>	Your "employer"?  And who is that, pray tell? 
>	Of course there are LIES and LIES and LIES!  So  you are telling  us
>that  previously published Jewish books, encyclopedias and year books
>contain lies, the information in them is slanted? Therefore  only "the
>recently  corrected"  figures and data is acceptable, is it? The old
>books  are to be burned - or maybe this was already done during the
>past 50 years? - somewhere on a public square?  
>	That is why there is revisionism searching for the truth, my firend
>which apparently can  only be practiced by the politically correct and
>nobody else. Meaning: when you and your "employer" tell  the world
>what the "correct"  truth is then, ..... with wild anticipation
>everyone has to accept it no questions asked?  
>	Mr. Stein is asking me "why are you entitled to assume that the Jewish
>Encyclopedia figure is correct rather than the other one?"
>	 Oh no! ... Don't tell me that History has been re-written? 
>	Tell us Mr. Stein, on what basis  ARE YOU entitled to assume that the
>figures in the Jewish  Enc. or the American Jewish Year Book are not
>correct? Is the Jewish  Encyclopedia (1970 published in New York) has
>ever been anywhere refuted or denounced by "you employer"? We are all
>waiting for you answer?...- Maybe  the more contemporary edition of J
>Enc. went under considerable "reconstruction"? Just like the 19 marble
>tables of Auschwitz in 1990 with 4 million names on them?  And perhaps
>you could quote the "new data and figures" from your new Jewish
>Encyclopedia  so we can all see that your books' editors in 1918-19
>gave out false information to the public, but NOW it is all corrected
>and how this was done?
>	Or are we not allowed to "meddle" in these affairs?
>Judit Toth
>============

	This is a funny post. Mr.Stein's replies that is.

	I didn't catch this post when it was first put out, but it sorely
stresses Jewish population claims. 
	
	Sometimes I get the notion the Jews just put out stuff to create
a big ambiguity. They evidently think that by doing so, it will
complicate things so much that no one will be able to conclude on
anything. 

	As Mr.Stein's reply shows, they just deny whatever is convenient
and nod to that which is convenient.

	This works. On the idiotic mind that is.	 
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct 10 18:08:20 PDT 1996
Article: 73131 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Cracow forensic study:another sick joke
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:00:05 GMT
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- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     

	Mr.Green, could you e-mail me the names of those in your
department so I can inquire of them for a second opinion as to
whatever you are saying here?


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct 10 18:08:21 PDT 1996
Article: 73132 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Cracow forensic study:another sick joke
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:32:16 GMT
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	First a correction. Below I state that there were three
paragraphs involved under "Final Remarks" when there are only two.

	Below the retrieved message I am presenting the full two
paragraphs as they appear in the Nizkor version of the Crakow Report.

>	About five months ago I first posted "Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz
>Today" which was a step by step analytical critique of this "Crakow
>Report". I included some commentary on certain passages and pointed
>out that a foot note at the end of the report referred to "terms" -
>"introduced".
>
>==============================================================
>"Footnotes:
>1. The terms "historical revisionism" and "revisionists" in
>the sense used there have been introduced into the
>literature of the field under discussion."
>==============================================================
>
>	At the time I recognized that any of the "terms" were amid
>considerable text and theorized that it could have been McVay or
>someone else associated with Nizkor that "introduced" the expanded
>commentary that included the words "revisionist, revisionism".
>
>	Under "Final Remarks" there are three paragraphs, two of which
>contain the "revisionism" reference and I singled them out as probable
>"introduced" remarks.
>
>	Since then, the topic of this Crakow Report has arisen a number
>of times and each time I have introduced the "Final Remarks" to make a
>point of the noncommittal, inconclusive summary to all the tests. Each
>time I have omitted those last two paragraphs under this "Final
>Remarks" and only presented the first and only paragraph I thought
>came from the Polish writers of the report.
>
>	Not once has Mr.McVay the original poster of the report, or
>Mr.Green and Mr.Keren, both ardent defenders of the report come back
>to complain about the omission of the last two paragraphs.
>
>	This could have arise from two different reasons. Either they
>never checked to see if I was presenting the full accurate or total
>account or they felt it better to just let the omissions go by.
>
>	I would invite anyone to review the whole report and to take note
>of where the "introduced" revisionist word appears and to take note of
>the gasping urgency in the style compared to the style of the rest of
>the report. 

	
"Final Remarks"

"The  present study shows that in spite of the passage  of  a
considerable period of time (over 45 years) in the walls  of
the  facilities  which  once were in contact  with  hydrogen
cyanide  the vestigial amounts of the combinations  of  this
constituent  of Zyklon B have been preserved. This  is  also
true  of  the ruins of the former gas chambers. The  cyanide
compounds  occur in the building materials only locally,  in
the  places  where the conditions arose for their  formation
and persistence for such a long time."

Second paragraph:
"In  his  reasoning  Leuchter (2) claims that  the  vestigial
amounts  of  cyanide combinations detected  by  him  in  the
materials  from  the chamber ruins are residues  left  after
fumigations  carried out in the Camp "once,  long  ago"(Item
14.004  of  the  Report). This is refuted  by  the  negative
results  of  the  examination of the  control  samples  from
living quarters, which are said to have been subjected to  a
single  gassing,  and  the  fact  that  in  the  period   of
fumigation of the Camp in connection with a typhoid epidemic
in  mid-1942 there were still no crematoria in the  Birkenau
Camp. The first crematorium (Crematorium II) was put to  use
as  late  as  15  March 1943 and the others  several  months
later."
 



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct 10 18:08:22 PDT 1996
Article: 73133 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:30:50 GMT
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I knew Moran reminded me of somebody!  Remember Renfield, Dracula's
fly-eating toady?

Bill


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct 10 18:08:22 PDT 1996
Article: 73134 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:30:57 GMT
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Sorry, Tom--it's not at all clear.  It is, I'm afraid, as close as
you're
capable of getting, so I'll try to respond to it.

You seem to be under the illusion that we Holohuggers are here to
prove the historical reality of the Holocaust.  We're not.  That's
been done, and there's not a rational person in the whole, wide world
who doesn't realize that.  We're here to point out what fools you
deniers are, and-- in the case of the Nizkor regulars--to point the
inquisitive toward the evidence.  You're not a participant in a
debate, here, Tom--you're a bigotted boob, and most of us only deal
with you to make fun of you.

Bill


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct 10 18:50:22 PDT 1996
Article: 73137 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OBSERVATIONS
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 16:02:43 GMT
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>
>>	
>>Mr. McClelland,
>>
>>	You don't have to spend too much time with Mr.Keren. He'll still
>>be out here even after the likes of the ADL and the Simon Wiesenthal
>>Center are compelled to admit the Holocaust story is a lie.
>>	He is having trouble though. It is evident in that he has to sign
>>off all the time with the "Nazi" word or some other slogan.
>>	
>>										Tom Moran
>
>Dear Mr Moran,
>
>Thank you for the advice. I realise that you have been observing the
>Kerens of this world for far longer than I have and appreciate your
>opinion. However, I felt the need to keep responding to him so that I
>could know - from my own experience - just what lengths he will go to
>to uphold his belief. 

	The ridiculous testimony speaks for itself. The ridiculous
response speaks for itself. Once that happens, let it stand. Any
further exchanges only muddies the clearness of it all.

											Tom Moran


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:52 PDT 1996
Article: 73282 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Cracow forensic study:another sick joke
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 14:24:00 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 44
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	About five months ago I first posted "Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz
Today" which was a step by step analytical critique of this "Crakow
Report". I included some commentary on certain passages and pointed
out that a foot note at the end of the report referred to "terms" -
"introduced".

==============================================================
"Footnotes:
1. The terms "historical revisionism" and "revisionists" in
the sense used there have been introduced into the
literature of the field under discussion."
==============================================================

	At the time I recognized that any of the "terms" were amid
considerable text and theorized that it could have been McVay or
someone else associated with Nizkor that "introduced" the expanded
commentary that included the words "revisionist, revisionism".

	Under "Final Remarks" there are three paragraphs, two of which
contain the "revisionism" reference and I singled them out as probable
"introduced" remarks.

	Since then, the topic of this Crakow Report has arisen a number
of times and each time I have introduced the "Final Remarks" to make a
point of the noncommittal, inconclusive summary to all the tests. Each
time I have omitted those last two paragraphs under this "Final
Remarks" and only presented the first and only paragraph I thought
came from the Polish writers of the report.

	Not once has Mr.McVay the original poster of the report, or
Mr.Green and Mr.Keren, both ardent defenders of the report come back
to complain about the omission of the last two paragraphs.

	This could have arise from two different reasons. Either they
never checked to see if I was presenting the full accurate or total
account or they felt it better to just let the omissions go by.

	I would invite anyone to review the whole report and to take note
of where the "introduced" revisionist word appears and to take note of
the gasping urgency in the style compared to the style of the rest of
the report. 

	     


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:53 PDT 1996
Article: 73306 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:05:24 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>Judith Toth wrote:
>
>>         The Torah/Deutoronomy 14:21 -
>>         "You shall not eat anything that has died a natural death; give it to
>> the stranger in you community to eat, or you may sell it to a
>> foreigner. For you are a people consecrated to the LORD your God."
>> /page352 The Torah, the Five Books of Moses, Jewish Publication
>> Society of America, Phil. 1962/
>>         Your interpretation on this  would be appreciated!.....
>> 
>
>I seems to say, "Don't eat roadkill but if someone else wants it let
>them have it."

	The "someone" being specified as a "stranger". "Stranger" in the
Bible means, 'goyim'.
>
>-- 
>Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
>Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
>European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>
>And be sure to check out:
>http://www1.us.nizkor.org/~fatbroad



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:54 PDT 1996
Article: 73307 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:05:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 32
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References: <323e9a12.644105@news.pacificnet.net> <53aup7$pmo@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <53c9ne$13@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <325A590F.48BF@ccnis.net> <53ejb9$len@news1.total.net> <53gqgq$def@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <53hji0$4g1@news1.total.net>  <53kc3c$t42@faith.total.net>
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>Discourse between Charles L. Power & Judit Toth
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power):
>
>>jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth)
>TOTH:<<<  Jews who commit  or committed crimes, atrocities  against
>other fellow human beings (nations!) should be brought to Justice and
>publicly denounced by  some organization which represents every single
>Jew on the planet. >>>
>
>CHARLES L. POWER: <<organization which represents every single Jew on the planet.
>The second problem is that you are quite selective in your demands. 
>
>Do you demand that the Roman Catholic Church, which does in fact
>represent every Roman Catholic on the planet (by definition) publicly
>denounce every Roman Catholic criminal? For example, the numerous
>priests who have committed child molestation? (I am not saying that
>this conduct is typical of priests. It is, however, a significant
>moral and indeed financial problem of the Church, as has come ever
>more frequently to light in recent decades.)

	Never during the time this was making the news did I see any
priests or Catholics writing in with excuses, whereas when it comes to
anything Jewish/Zionist I have seen hundreds by rabbis justifying it.
	When the Goldstein thing happened with him shooting all the Arabs
in the Mosque, the letters, editorials and such appeared galore. The
overall summary of their direction was 'The justifiable insanity
defense'. Rabbis were there with the theme.
	In fact common themes are evident whenever things like that
happen. It shows the networking. Simon calls Hymie, Hymie calls Saul,
Saul calls ..., 'Hey I have an angle'. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:55 PDT 1996
Article: 73309 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust Desperation
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:10:23 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	One thing that is clearly evident is, the desperation to keep the
Holocasut story true. Israel/$$$,$$$,$$$,$$$			
	
    
            Thought Crimes Index

http://www.codoh.com/thoughtcrimes/thoughtcrimes.html
=========================================================


07/04/84 - Arsonists Devastate Revisionist Publisher

01/07/85 - Zundel Attacked on way to Trial

04/08/86 - Police Raid Judge's Home

06/25/87 - Ernst Nolte Dismissed  

02/10/88 - Terrorists Attack Historian's Automobile

02/24/88 - Teacher Suspended for Challenging
Holocaust Story

09/16/89 - Revisionist Historian Suffers Savage
Beating

03/01/90 - Professor Dismissed for Openness
to Revisionism

03/22/91 - Zündel Arrested in Munich

04/19/91 - Faurisson Convicted of Questioning
Gas Chambers

01/22/92 - Thugs Attack Revisionist Speaker
at UCLA Meeting

05/05/92 - Austrian Revisionist Convicted

05/05/92 - Irving Fined 10,000 Marks

10/02/92 - Computer Network Holocaust Debate
Closed Down

10/22/92 - German General Sentenced To Imprisonment

04/22/93 - Museum Protester Attacked and Beaten

10/28/93 - Fred Leuchter Arrested in Germany

02/12/94 - College Professor Faced with Bias

10/13/94 - Free Speech Denied at Berkeley

01/11/95 - House Historian Fired for Even-Handedness

01/30/95 - Japanese Publisher Shut Down

02/15/95 - German Publisher Forced to 

03/27/95 - German Publisher Raided

04/21/95 - German Court Jails Deckert for
Two Years 
  
05/08/95 - Zundel Headquarters Torched

05/09/95 - Executive Fired for Translating
Journal Items

07/25/95 - Journalist Charged for Expressing
Opinion

08/08/95 - German-American Jailed for Writing
Letter

08/29/95 - German Court Jails Yuppie for Denying
Holocaust

08/30/95 - Lawyer Attacked Outside Court

11/09/95 - Deckert Arrested for Suspicion
of Book Authorship 

11/22/95 - Man Convicted for Denying Knowledge
of Gas Chambers

11/26/95 - Swiss to Expel Christophersen

02/12/96 - Revisionist's Home Raided by German
Police

02/28/96 - Canadian Freedom of Speech Limitation
Found Constitutional

03/19/96 - European Union Denies Freedom of
the Press

03/22/96 - Germany Maintains Ban of Irving

03/27/96 - Free Speech Conference Held Despite
Official Attacks

04/04/96 - History Denied as Publisher Buckles
to Pressure

04/20/96 - Abbe Pierre Condemned for Support
of Revisionist

04/25/96 - French Investigate Garaudy for Holocaust
Revisionism

07/04/93 - Bradley Smith's Website is Shut
Down

09/06/96 - Arsonists attack Revisionist Publishers



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 11 09:26:49 PDT 1996
Article: 46240 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,alt.flame,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead
Subject: Re: Who Flys, Who Doesn't - U.S. Airlines/Israel
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:05:19 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <3267622a.6397938@199.0.216.204>
References: <326e1af3.9691406@199.0.216.204> 
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>In article <326e1af3.9691406@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>wrote:
>
>> A few weeks ago the "Spotlight" newspaper published an article
>> citing proposed security measures at U.S. airports. The article
>> related how a Jew from Israel flew in to act as an advisor. 
>
>This of course has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the FACT of the Holocaust;
>your only purpose for posting it in alt.revisionism was to increase the
>distribution of your anti-semetic filth. 

	Everything Zionist-Israel has to do with the Holocaust. The ADL
is said to be a human rights group, but their main out put is in
defense of the Holocaust and all things Zionist. The Simon Wiesenthal
Center puts out news releases for Israel. Israel is the bastard child
of the Holocaust. Zionist activities are hypocritical acts in lieu of
the Jewish state's reliance on the Holocaust. There's a few
relevances. The summary is, Israel/Zionist/Jewish/Holocaust. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 11 12:14:20 PDT 1996
Article: 73320 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.mem.bellsouth.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.ironhorse.com!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:05:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <32696236.6409857@199.0.216.204>
References: <323e9a12.644105@news.pacificnet.net> <53aup7$pmo@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <53c9ne$13@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <325A590F.48BF@ccnis.net> <53ejb9$len@news1.total.net> <53gqgq$def@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <53hji0$4g1@news1.total.net> 
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>Again, you are being selective. Name one Roman Catholic organization that
>ever denounced or brought to justice one single Roman Catholic who
>committed atrocities against other human beings, or one Protestant
>organization that ever denounced or brought to justice one single
>Protestant who committed atrocities against other human beings, why don't
>you? Why only Jews?

	The fact is Annie, the Jews have committed perhaps thousands of
letters to the editors, columns, articles, unsigned editorials, full
page ads, quarter page ads to justifying everything Judeo/Zionist in
our major medias. The Jews make up less than 2% of the American
population yet are responsible for about 100% of the hate copy in our
medias. The Jews are for Jews, period. Rabbis or whatever.

	There was a poll given in the L.A.Times a few years ago, and one
of the questions was "Do you think Catholics are too controlled by
their religion". I have never seen a priest or any Catholic write in
any objections or write any excuses for any Catholic imperfections,
whereas I have seen it thousands of times over fifteen years of
reading the L.A. and N.Y. Times by Jews. Just in the last month, there
has been maybe 15 letters to the editors, 15 columns, 10 unsigned
editorials, and 2 or 3 ads.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 11 12:14:21 PDT 1996
Article: 73331 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:59:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <326052a9.2429003@199.0.216.204>
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>>   rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>>  >   kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) writes:
>>  
>>  (Irrelevant drivel)
>>  >  
>>  >>>>
>>  But the lie of 4 million Jewish "gassed" at Auschwitz
>>  was officially chiseled out of the massive slabs in front
>>  of the Auschwitz Museum in 1994!  Let's talk about that 
>>  one for a while.
>>  
>>>>>
>	There was never a statement in front of the Auschwitz Musuem that 
>4,000,000 Jew were gassed there.
>
>	--YFE
	You mean the sign that the Simon Wiesenthal page refers to never
was?


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 11 12:14:21 PDT 1996
Article: 73343 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bconnex.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For the enrichment of NIZKOR's archives!
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:05:09 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 18
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>>>According to "accepted and proven  Historical facts" from the Jewish
>>>Encyclopedia (Publ. 1970):

>>>World Jewry in 1900 ................. 11 million
>>>World Jewry in In 1939............	  16,658,000
>>>European Jewry  1939 ............    9,650,000

	Lets see.  The figures for 1970 are only accurate to the nearest
thousand and the figures from 1919 are accurate to the last digit?

>>>The American Jewish Year Book (1918-1919)

>>>World Jewry /1917/................	15,124,349
>>>European Jewry /1917/..........10,891,917

	Other figures that have appeared in our newspapers range from 13
to 16 to 20 million today.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 11 12:33:53 PDT 1996
Article: 161976 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <326b6240.6419853@199.0.216.204>
Control: cancel <326b6240.6419853@199.0.216.204>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:09:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/16.299




From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 12 10:54:03 PDT 1996
Article: 73453 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 03:18:02 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <32670dd4.19712747@199.0.216.204>
References: <53la2s$jef@juliana.sprynet.com> <53lh21$jig@news.enter.net> <326052a9.2429003@199.0.216.204> 
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>In article <326052a9.2429003@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>wrote:

	First we clarify, or more correctly, set the quoted material
straight, seeing how "Rajiv Gandhi" didn't. All he says is "[snip]".

>[snip]
Giwer:
>>>> But the lie of 4 million Jewish "gassed" at Auschwitz
>>>> was officially chiseled out of the massive slabs in front
>>>> of the Auschwitz Museum in 1994!  Let's talk about that 
>>>> one for a while.
>
>[snip]
Edeiken:
>>> There was never a statement in front of the Auschwitz Musuem that 
>>> 4,000,000 Jew were gassed there.
>
>[snip]
Moran:
>> You mean the sign that the Simon Wiesenthal page refers to never was?

"Rajiv Gandhi":
>Of course you can point to the page where there is such a reference, since
>I could find no page which says there was a massive slab on front of the
>museum which claimed that 4 million Jews were gassed.

	Moran doesn't know anything about a "slab" but he has seen
references to a before and after. At one time, not too long a go, a
sign in from of the Auschwitz grounds that claimed 4,000,000, and a
sign that is there now as referred to by Simon Wiesenthal, "Responses
to Revisionist Arguments", "Question 13", "For years, the death
statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put at well over 3 million.
recently however a memorial plaque ...".

	Perhaps Simon Wiesenthal just didn't bother to say there was a
'before' plaque, only the 'after'.

	I believe when Simon Wiesenthal says "well over a 3 million" he
knows it was 4 million.

	Was it a slab? I personally don't know. But if it was and is,
then we could probably call it a slab, maybe even a monolith. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 12 10:54:03 PDT 1996
Article: 73465 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 03:17:30 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 7
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And when one debates a Holocaust denier, one is debates a fool.
Usually, on is debates an illiterate fool.

Bill
----



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 12 10:54:04 PDT 1996
Article: 73466 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel Gas Chambers: The Reality Explored
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 03:17:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <32660dce.19706101@199.0.216.204>
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>In article , Jeffrey 
> wrote:
>
>[nothing of interest]
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/diesel-1.html

	The reason Mr.McVay doesn't just post the stuff out here for the
reader is so it won't be readily available for a critique.

>
>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
>-----------------------| Remember John Hron
>                       |--------------------------------------
>     http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 12 10:54:04 PDT 1996
Article: 73537 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: RAVE REVIEWS FOR SNIVELING LIAR
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 11:54:37 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 37
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References:  
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>"Jeffrey", quoting Bradley Smith:
>
>Treblinka survivor Abraham Bomba is talking about the 
>early gas chambers in the camp:
>
># Bomba: It was not a big room, around twelve feet by
># twelve feet.
>
>[...]
>
>And poor old Smith goes on to write later:
>
># You might think that Claude Lanzmann is about to express
># some doubt about how Bomba is blocking out this scene for
># him. Sixty to seventy naked women in the 12-square-foot room.
>
>Of course, it's 144 = 12*12, not 12. But why should a "leading
>revisionist scholar" know third-grade arithmetic?

	"12-square-foot room", with dash marks. Meaning of course
whatever dimensions Bomba was giving, 12 foot by 12 foot. Any idiot
would recognize the reference was to the dimensions Bomba gave. But,
Mr.Keren saw it as a opportunity to discredit the whole 400+ lines of
copy. What it really shows is that Mr.Keren couldn't muster up
anything else. 

>Based on this, and on e-mail correspondence I had with Smith,
>I have come to the conclusion that he simply does not understand
>the concept of area, and cannot calculate the area of a square.
>
>Odd. Unlike the other "major" CODOH figure, David Cole, Smith
>did graduate from highschool, did he not?
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 12 10:54:05 PDT 1996
Article: 73538 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bconnex.net!news.abs.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel Gas Chambers: The Reality Explored
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 11:18:16 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <32607e51.472574@199.0.216.204>
References:   <53m6hi$qap@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <32660dce.19706101@199.0.216.204> <325f2db1.38344039@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>>In article , Jeffrey 
>>> wrote:
>
>>>[nothing of interest]
>
>>>http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/diesel-1.html
>
>>	The reason Mr.McVay doesn't just post the stuff out here for the
>>reader is so it won't be readily available for a critique.
>
>The reason you don't treat us to another of your laughable critiques
>is because Ken McVay posted an URL instead of a "clickable" that you
>can point your "rigii" at.

	Ah yes, a professor speaks.
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 12 10:54:06 PDT 1996
Article: 73539 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bconnex.net!news.abs.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 11:25:29 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <32617f17.671128@199.0.216.204>
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>	The People have been here since the moment of the creation.  We will be
>here after your footprints in the sand have been covered by the Wind.  

	"The moment" of "creation"?  Archeological reckoning doesn't have
the Jews around until maybe 1200 BC. By that time the Egyptians had
been around for two thousands years.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 12 10:54:06 PDT 1996
Article: 73540 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Sara Schwartz
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 12:06:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <326788dc.3171479@199.0.216.204>
References: <322ee41c.2598721@news.pacificnet.net> <3254f5fa.472080@199.0.216.204> <53dpt5$8o@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <53jb8v$nt3@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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>He's quoting, in this case.  For some reason, one of Tommy's favorite
>tricks is to take funny posts by his opponents--especially the ones that
>make him look really, really silly--and post them under "Best of..."
>subject lines.  It's possible he feels this helps his cause somehow,
>but nobody else has been able to see it.  
>
>This post, for instance, will probably go under "The Best of Billy
>Anderson".

	Interesting subliminal recognition and confession. Moran wonders
why Mr.Anderson didn't post it under "The Best of Billy Anderson",
instead opting to post it under "The Best of Sara Schwartz"?

>Bill



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 12 10:54:07 PDT 1996
Article: 73541 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news-in2.uu.net!news.abs.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lettuce, Pumpkins, Potatoes
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 11:16:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <325f7de4.363603@199.0.216.204>
References: <325f2a0d.22597902@news.awinc.com>
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>Lettuce? Pumpkins? Potatoes?
>
>Looks like someone has a cabbage for a mind.

Most likely any kind of plant would describe it.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 12 10:54:08 PDT 1996
Article: 73542 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israeli Arabs
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 12:11:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>In article <325A7040.16F0@pop.erols.com>,
>Walt Hingerty   wrote:
>
>>I dont have an agenda. But I am curious about something. What is the
>>legal status of Palestinians who are born within the borders of Israel.
>>Are they considered Israeli citizens? Are they allowed to vote or serve
>>in the military? What is the status of Arabic Christians or Europaen
>>Christians who are also born and live in Israel? I have heard that only
>>persons of the Hebrew faith have full civil rights in Israel. Is this
>>so? Thanks in advance. walt
>
>Mr. Hingerty,
>
>This discussion is really not relevent to alt.revisionism.  This
>newsgroup is about the denial of the Holocaust.  To answer your question,
>however, Israeli Arabs have the right to vote; there are Arab parties in
>the Knesset (the Israeli Parliament).  Do they have full civil rights?
>That may be a harder question.  Do African-Americans have full civil
>rights in the USA?  According to the law they do, but reality is a
>different story.
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green

Mr.Hingerty,
	Everything Israel/Zionist has to do with the Holocaust. Or vice
versa. 
                                                      Tom Moran


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 12 10:54:09 PDT 1996
Article: 73545 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Photos in Holocaust books
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 12:55:40 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	In Nora Levin's book, "THE HOLOCAUST" we are shown a picture,
"furnace, probably from Auschwitz, ..."

	"Probably"?

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 12 19:38:04 PDT 1996
Article: 73605 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson - Updated
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 13:13:16 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <32719941.7369287@199.0.216.204>
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		A poetic beginning.

>======================================================================
>
>      Mr.Anderson for the defense of the Holocaust story.
>      ---------------------------------------------------
>
>	Yeah?  Well, I once heard Nikita Kruschev say "Bob Whitaker and
>Tom Moran are Venusian Clone Robots introduced into Western Society by
>Comintern in order to confuse the Running Dog Imperialists."
>
>Boy, this quote-inventing game is fun!  Thanks, guys...
>
>Bill
>----

-----

-----

-----

-----

		And a poetic finale.

>He's quoting, in this case.  For some reason, one of Tommy's favorite
>tricks is to take funny posts by his opponents--especially the ones
>that make him look really, really silly--and post them under "Best
>of..." subject lines.  It's possible he feels this helps his cause
>somehow, but nobody else has been able to see it.  
>
>This post, for instance, will probably go under "The Best of Billy
>Anderson".
>
>Bill
>----
>=======================================================================
>
>	



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 12 19:38:05 PDT 1996
Article: 73607 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Extermination? Re: Keren:  Exterminationist by Religion
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 15:51:13 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 26
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>Kurt Stele wrote:
>> Keren is one such exterminationist..
>
>I don't think 'exterminationist' is a very accurate term since Mr. Keren
>does not advocate 'exterminating' anyone.  If you need a term to
>describe someone who refutes Holocaust denial, try something else.
>'Refuter', maybe? Someone recently used the term 'anti-hystericist',
>which I much like. Another possibility is 'verificationist', or
>'verifier' since Mr. Keren does a lot of time verifying what is said. 
>'Affirmationist' would be the opposite of 'denier'.  That works, too.

	This is Annie's real forte. This is what she can do the best.
This is Annie, wading in the shallow end, where you have to be when
you can't swim. 



>-- 
>Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
>Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
>European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>
>And be sure to check out:
>http://www1.us.nizkor.org/~fatbroad



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 12 19:38:05 PDT 1996
Article: 73629 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israeli Arabs
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 12:21:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <32698ce8.4207694@199.0.216.204>
References: <325A7040.16F0@pop.erols.com> <53ep3j$6qd@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <32688a8d.3604508@199.0.216.204>
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>>In article <325A7040.16F0@pop.erols.com>,
>>Walt Hingerty   wrote:
>>
>>>I dont have an agenda. But I am curious about something. What is the
>>>legal status of Palestinians who are born within the borders of Israel.
>>>Are they considered Israeli citizens? Are they allowed to vote or serve
>>>in the military? What is the status of Arabic Christians or Europaen
>>>Christians who are also born and live in Israel? I have heard that only
>>>persons of the Hebrew faith have full civil rights in Israel. Is this
>>>so? Thanks in advance. walt
>>
>>Mr. Hingerty,
>>
>>This discussion is really not relevent to alt.revisionism.  This
>>newsgroup is about the denial of the Holocaust.  To answer your question,
>>however, Israeli Arabs have the right to vote; there are Arab parties in
>>the Knesset (the Israeli Parliament).  Do they have full civil rights?
>>That may be a harder question.  Do African-Americans have full civil
>>rights in the USA?  According to the law they do, but reality is a
>>different story.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Rich Green
>
>Mr.Hingerty,
>	Everything Israel/Zionist has to do with the Holocaust. Or vice
>versa. 
>                                                      Tom Moran
Correction: And vice versa. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 12 19:38:06 PDT 1996
Article: 73641 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 23:56:26 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <3261300b.45970522@199.0.216.204>
References:  <53ndt6$dbq@juliana.sprynet.com> <53nnq0$cub@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <32617f17.671128@199.0.216.204>
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>>	The People have been here since the moment of the creation.  We will be
>>here after your footprints in the sand have been covered by the Wind.  
>
>	"The moment" of "creation"?  Archeological reckoning doesn't have
>the Jews around until maybe 1200 BC. By that time the Egyptians had
>been around for two thousands years.

	"The moment of creation".  Interesting. The Bible doesn't have
people around from "the moment". Maybe a few moments later. After the
earth and the sky. After the light came on. 

	But what about (((((((( evolution ))))))))? 

	



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 12 19:38:07 PDT 1996
Article: 73643 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 23:56:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <3262302d.46004191@199.0.216.204>
References:  <53ndt6$dbq@juliana.sprynet.com> <53nnq0$cub@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <32617f17.671128@199.0.216.204>
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>>	The People have been here since the moment of the creation.  We will be
>>here after your footprints in the sand have been covered by the Wind.  
>
>	"The moment" of "creation"?  Archeological reckoning doesn't have
>the Jews around until maybe 1200 BC. By that time the Egyptians had
>been around for two thousands years.

	And then there's the problem of who are the Jews today? After two
thousand years after they dispersed. 

	Well those from Bulgaria, Romania and immediate areas tend to be
a bit shorter, while those from Eastern Europe tend to be little
taller, or any and all of those that tend to have the traits
characteristic to a certain area.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 12 19:38:07 PDT 1996
Article: 73644 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: RAVE REVIEWS FOR SNIVELING LIAR
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 00:05:30 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <3266321f.46502416@199.0.216.204>
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>	"12-square-foot room", with dash marks. Meaning of course
>>whatever dimensions Bomba was giving, 12 foot by 12 foot. Any idiot
>>would recognize the reference was to the dimensions Bomba gave. But,
>>Mr.Keren saw it as a opportunity to discredit the whole 400+ lines of
>>copy. What it really shows is that Mr.Keren couldn't muster up
>>anything else. 
>
>NIce try, but you already posted a message in which you made the
>mistake of quoting Smith as not understanding how sixty or seventy
>women could fit into the "12-square-foot room". 

	I notice you have used the "lying" word here. Could you show
where Moran made a "mistake quoting Smith ...", or even where he did
quote Smith? 

>Sorry, Moron, Smith
>obviously is making precisely the elementary arithmetical error
>which was pointed out. Maybe next time you'll be smart enough not
>to figure out which text to delete in order to mislead your readers.
>But I won't hold my breath, lying Moron.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 12 19:38:08 PDT 1996
Article: 73647 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How much of one could the other really eat?
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 00:04:43 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 10
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>I am not making this up.
>
>This concerns a story in which a Holocaust survivor was quoted in the
>newspaper as having said that she watched as a Nazi turned his dog on
>an elderly Jewish man.  She was quoted as saying that the dog "ate him
>alive."  From these three words in Bradley Smith's brain sprang the
>following text:

	Not quite as extreme as turning a statement like "Final solution"
into a thousand books.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 13 08:51:57 PDT 1996
Article: 73703 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 23:57:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <3263303d.46020998@199.0.216.204>
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>	The People have been here since the moment of the creation.  We will be
>here after your footprints in the sand have been covered by the Wind.  

	Where "Just Moshe" says "we will be here ...", it won't be him.
He won't know nothin about any future Jews and they won't nothin about
him. He'll be long gone.

	For the time being, "Just Moshe" will just be another
ethnocentrically insane person, clinging to a security blanket that
will guarantee nothing, only giving him an idiotic and puffed up ego,
that tells him he is something he's not. An ego founded on dogmatic
lies.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 13 08:51:58 PDT 1996
Article: 73712 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos in Holocaust books
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 20:20:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 15
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References: <326e954a.6353943@199.0.216.204>
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>			
>	In Nora Levin's book, "THE HOLOCAUST" we are shown a picture,
>"furnace, probably from Auschwitz, ..."
>
>	"Probably"?
 
 
     Lets see. Ms.Levin sat around with her publishers and a box of
photos, they go through them to pick out what would best suit
Ms.Levin's taste. Then the photo of a furnace comes up. 'Hey, look at
this one'. 'I wonder where this is from?' 'What is it?' 'Looks like a
furnace.' 'Hey, that, that, that must be one of the the ovens.' 'Yea,
I think your right.' 'But where was the photograph taken?' 'Could have
been from Auschwitz.' 'You think so?' 'Sure.' 'Lets use it. We can
just caption it "furnace, probably from Auschwitz, ...".'


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 13 08:51:58 PDT 1996
Article: 73756 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I'm lost here...
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 00:04:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <3264305a.46049724@199.0.216.204>
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>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  writes:
>
># This is just a minor point: Muench came in Birkenau only in
># september 1943, so even if Keren's explanation would make
># sense, let say for someone who's drunk, there's few chances
># that krema 4 was active during Muench presence in Auschwitz.
>
>I take it that this is the new "revisionist breakthrough"?
>That everyone who was in the camps was drunk, that's why
>they're all "lying"?

	There goes Mr.Keren's favorite technique. He knows the statement
he makes comment on refers to only a drunk person would accept what
Keren had to say. Mr.Beaulieu probably really meant 'falling down
sloshed'. 

>Surely, you're not claiming that both IV and V were out for
>the summer of 1944? Also, you're making a mistake here; it's
>true that the furnaces in one of them broke down, however
>its gas chambers were still used, and the corpses burned
>in the open, behind the Krema.

	Right out in the "open"? Right there among the camp, with a
hundred thousand prisoners, a thousand civilians coming and going on a
daily basis? Was it on top of the ground, or was there a pit? 

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/Pit.jpg

	Looky here. Mr.Keren has supplied a reference to a photograph.
And what is this photo of? Germans burning typhus fatalities? Germans
in the process of cremating victims? Germans cremating victims out in
the fields? Civilians in the Eastern areas burning bodies they killed?
Or even Allied troops burning bodies at Buchenwald or Belsen?

	Well we certainly wouldn't think it was Allied personell since it
comes from the Nizkor files. We have to opt for one of the others.
Which one? Take your pick. Nizkor doesn't supply any identifying
caption at all so all we have to go on is the option Mr.Keren infers,
Germans cremating bodies "behind the Krema". That would be Krema IV,
exactly.

	Is Mr.Keren going to come back and tell us, thats it, the photo
was taken behind Krema IV? And is he going to prove it? We'll have to
wait and see.


>
>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 13 08:51:59 PDT 1996
Article: 73779 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: RAVE REVIEWS FOR SNIVELING LIAR
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 11:48:43 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <326384fb.2178709@199.0.216.204>
References:   <53mt7p$qtb@is05.micron.net>
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>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>"Jeffrey", quoting Bradley Smith:
>
>>Treblinka survivor Abraham Bomba is talking about the 
>>early gas chambers in the camp:
>
>># Bomba: It was not a big room, around twelve feet by
>># twelve feet.
>
>>[...]
>
>>And poor old Smith goes on to write later:
>
>># You might think that Claude Lanzmann is about to express
>># some doubt about how Bomba is blocking out this scene for
>># him. Sixty to seventy naked women in the 12-square-foot room.
>
>>Of course, it's 144 = 12*12, not 12. But why should a "leading
>>revisionist scholar" know third-grade arithmetic?

>Look at the trivial point Keren is making.  

You mean you could figure out what point Mr.Keren was trying to make?




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 13 08:52:00 PDT 1996
Article: 73797 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson - Updated
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 13:03:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <3263e835.562486@199.0.216.204>
References: <326c9344.5835781@199.0.216.204>
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>	
>	


	While reviewing some of Mr.Anderson's comments here, I took note
of this one. I've read Mr.Anderson's stuff a few times trying to catch
that thought image of the individual. 
                    ------------------------
"Why am I not surprised by this?  You're brain really only has the
one channel, doesn't it, Tommy?

Tom Moran's retirement speech:

"'Looking back over my many years of service to the United Toilet
Dredging Companies, I'm reminded of how evil the JOOS are...'"
                    
Bill
----

	It's funny how people mentally select certain things to make a
point. Something comes to mind and it is stated, or in this case
posted. What a person blurts out is determined by the inner most
feelings. The subliminal reality. Even though these words are
presented as being a hypothetical quote by Moran, they are in reality
Mr.Anderson's.

"Looking back over my many years of service to the United Toilet
Dredging Companies, I'm reminded of how evil the JOOS are..."



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 13 08:52:01 PDT 1996
Article: 73801 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 12:57:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <3260e70b.263914@199.0.216.204>
References:  <53ndt6$dbq@juliana.sprynet.com> <53nnq0$cub@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <32617f17.671128@199.0.216.204> <53p7jd$8he@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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>On Sat, 12 Oct 1996 11:25:29 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
"Just Moshe":
>>>	The People have been here since the moment of the creation.  We will be
>>>here after your footprints in the sand have been covered by the Wind.  

Moran:
>>	"The moment" of "creation"?  Archeological reckoning doesn't have
>>the Jews around until maybe 1200 BC. By that time the Egyptians had
>>been around for two thousands years.

"Just Moshe":
>	The Book tells us the truth that surpasses understanding.

Moran:
     If it's beyond understanding, how would you know? If it's beyond
understanding, what good does it do. How would one explain something
beyond understanding?

	The book was written when the world was flat. 

	The book was written when the planets were gods.

	The book was written when birds were smashed against altars.

	The book was written when Urim and Thummim were tossed to make
decisions.

	The book includes "dragons" and "satyrs", and a whole slue of
other associated thoughts.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 13 08:52:01 PDT 1996
Article: 73812 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust Museums
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 14:01:56 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Monuments to ignorance, weakness and submission. Monuments to
lies. Monuments against the empirical way. Monuments that make all the
lives lost during the American Revolution evil and wasted.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 13 08:52:02 PDT 1996
Article: 73815 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: So what's wrong with hating?
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 13:58:55 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <3269f59c.3993486@199.0.216.204>
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>[...]
>>Moran loves onions, but hates liver.
>[...]
>>Moran hates the U.S. system for bowing to Jewish activity.
>
>If this utterly infantile person is not able to distinguish between a
>dislike of certain foods and racist ravings than there is little hope
>for an intelligent discussion.
>
>Nele

	What it means is that the word "hate" has to be understood as to
exactly what is meant by it. Then we have to require those who use it,
to prove it. 

"Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism". "Anti-Semitism" equals hate. There for
"Anti-Zionism" = "hate".

	Now is this something you can engage "intelligent discussion" in?



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 13 11:34:21 PDT 1996
Article: 73865 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 4 million lies
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 14:20:04 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 34
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>rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>
>>At last-the genesis of the four million!  From
>>the testimony of Ada Bimko:
>
>>"One of those who took part in these
>>Kommandos told me that other members
>>of the Kommandos before being gassed
>>had complete records of all these trans-
>>ports which arrived, and then eventually 
>>were destroyed.  He, himself, in fact, kept
>>records also and he said that the number of
>>Jews who were destroyed in this gas chamber
>>would be about FOUR MILLION."  (Caps-rb)
>
>>Page 68, The Belsen Trial)
>
>>Comment:  One rumor, one gas chamber, FOUR
>>million........Of course, she never mentioned the
>>name of the man who told her these lies....perhaps
>>no one told her and she simply made it up----what
>>simple faith believers in the Holocaust have.....
>
>Perhaps you need to analyze the verb tense used. Bimko's interlocutor
>may have been speculating on how much output the gas chamber could 
>get if allowed to do its work indefinitely. He may also have been
>overly optimistic. Interesting how you once more pull a "lie" from 
>such information....

	One person calls it a lie, another says it is merely
"speculating" and/or "optimistic".

	This is testimony at a trial? Then maybe 'prejury' is a word that
could be agreed upon.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 13 15:35:49 PDT 1996
Article: 162301 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <326f97b9.6976628@199.0.216.204>
Control: cancel <326f97b9.6976628@199.0.216.204>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 13:12:06 GMT
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 13 15:35:50 PDT 1996
Article: 162527 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <3265ec2a.1575358@199.0.216.204>
Control: cancel <3265ec2a.1575358@199.0.216.204>
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 13 15:35:51 PDT 1996
Article: 162530 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <32720010.6668773@199.0.216.204>
Control: cancel <32720010.6668773@199.0.216.204>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 14:55:48 GMT
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From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 14 08:46:05 PDT 1996
Article: 74055 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: First step to the United States ban on Holocaust denial
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 13:59:02 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 18
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	In the L.A.Times, 4/17/96, "Rotunda Rite in Remembrance of
Holocaust" it was reported that the main responsible parties for
supplying the arms of terrorism to Israel gathered at the Rotunda rite
in observance or Day of Remembrance.
	"Members of Congress, Jewish leaders and five Supreme Court
justices gathered for the 15th Rotunda ceremony ..."

	It didn't say how many members of congress attended, but it also
reported that "Shortly after, the House passed, 420 - 0, a resolution
deploring individuals who deny the historical reality of the
Holocaust.
	
	First the "deploring" then the total caving in; Special
exclusions to the First Amendment.

     NO MORE QUESTIONING OF HOLOCAUST REALITY 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 14 08:46:06 PDT 1996
Article: 74127 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jeff Roberts tells a deliberate lie
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 14:03:24 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <32654822.891817@199.0.216.204>
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>In article ,
>Jeffrey   wrote:
>>
>>The Franks had been arrested and had been taken away.......
>>
>>What happened next? Who found the "diary" [actually written by her dad]?
>
>    The diary has been authenticated by forensic testing, and Jeff has
>been told that the diary has been authenticated by forensic testing.  The
>diary was edited for publication by her father, but that is not the same
>thing. 
>
>    Jeff Roberts has lied, and that is a charge I do not make lightly. 

	Is it more serious than the charge of "anti-Semitism"? Is it more
serious than the charge of "hate"?

>    Posted/emailed.
>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 14 08:46:07 PDT 1996
Article: 74128 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: England to Enforce the Holocaust Lie
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 14:02:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 13
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>A Labour government will act to make Holocaust denial a criminal 
>offence, Opposition leaders pledged this week.

>The announcement, made at the party's Blackpool conference, was the 
>culmination of a lengthy campaign by Jewish groups including the Board
>of Deputies, the Holocaust Education Trust and Poale Zion.

	Why are the Jews so fanatically obsessed with keeping the story
as it is? What do they have to gain by it? Is it that they want it
known so the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice, like
they say, or is for the the billions that they have gotten, which is
the reality. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 14 08:46:07 PDT 1996
Article: 74130 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: More ADL - More Words
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 14:03:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Recently posted to alt.revisionism was "Evil Palestinians", on a
full page ad by the ADL condemning the Palestinians as the ones who
cause the trouble in the Mideast.

                      N.Y.Times, Oct. 2, 1996
                          (Full page ad)

                              "VIOLENCE"

	      	     IN OSLO, THE PLO FINALLY ADDED
               'NON' IN FRONT OF 'VIOLENCE' TO GET PEACE 	

				IN ISRAEL, THE PLO JUST REMOVED IT
					TO TRY TO GET THEIR WAY

============================================================================

	Evidently in a bid to cover their expression of what the ADL is
really all about, the ADL gave us a quarter page ad,

				N.Y.Times, Oct. 5, 1996

				  "IF THIS PAGE WERE
			      ALL WHITE OR ALL BLACK,
			      YOU COULDN'T READ IT." 

	  "IT TAKES BOTH BLACK AND WHITE TO GIVE IT MEANING.

	If you think one race or religion or culture is the only one
that's valid, you're not acknowledging the realities of the times.
Today we depend on each other for almost everything.

	And it's time we understood that. Take this paper, it was made,
printed and sold by white, black, red,yellow and brown men and women
of different religions.
	And the things you use every day. Your food. Your TV. Your ...
	The car you drive in ...
	....
	....
	For 83 years, the Anti-Defamation League has been working to stop
prejudice and educate people to the values ...
	Prejudice is something America can live without."
                      -----------------------

	How nice. But in the end, we got a full page ADL propaganda
spread on the evil Palestinians and a quarter page ad for this.

==========================================================================

				And then we get this.

				N.Y.Times, Oct. 13, 1996

                  (Quarter page ad by the ADL)

		"The Day We Lose Separation of Church and State,
                   Start Saying Your Prayers."

	There are those who would ignore the genius of our nation's
founders who built into the First Amendment to our Constitution the
separation of church and state that has guaranteed religious freedom
to all our citizens for over 200 years. The guarantee of separation
>from  state control allows all of us to practice ... ADL support for
the separation of church and state underscores just how precious we
believe religion is in our society.
	For more than 80 years, the Anti-Defamation League's mission has
been to fight bigotry and hatred and 'to secure justice and fair
treatment to all citizens alike. ...." 
                      -----------------------
 
	The United States support for the Jewish state of Israel goes
against the "separation of church and state". 

	What would the ADL have to say about that? You could count on a
righteous dose of child logic if they were the types to have the guts
to stand and answer to an inquiry, not necessarily by someone of their
own selection.

	And what about the Holocaust. You can bet they are adamant about
having it forced on our young minds in our school system by state
legislation. The reason they are so fanatical for this is because the
Holocaust is a propaganda tool to incite acceptance for the U.S.
support of the Jewish state of Israel.

	And what about the ADL views on Holocaust denial? Should it be
banned? Yes, yes, yes, yes. "Hate", "hate", "hate". "Anti-Semitic",
anti-Semitic", "anti-Semitic". 

	He who says Israel is not a religious based state shoves doo doo
to your mouth and tells you it is honey. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 14 12:23:39 PDT 1996
Article: 74147 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Best of Billy Anderson - Updated
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 12:55:14 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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            The best of Billy Anderson
              

	Mr.Anderson is one of the top defenders of the Holocaust story
on alt.revisionism. Entered here is his best stuff. It's obvious that
with intellect as shown here, revisionist are in for a tough time.  

           
--------------------------------------------------------------

	Moran recognizing the awesome nature of Mr.Anderson's material
mentions to Mr.Anderson his stuff should be given exposure:

 	"I think the time is growing nigh for a "Best of Anderson"."

Mr.Anderson replys to the suggestion:

	"Tom-boy, I would be honored.  You just don't know.

They won't even let me use the hot tub at ZOG headquarters until
you do a 'Best of Anderson'".

Bill
----
======================================================================

      Mr.Anderson for the defense of the Holocaust story.
      ---------------------------------------------------

	Yeah?  Well, I once heard Nikita Kruschev say "Bob Whitaker and
Tom Moran are Venusian Clone Robots introduced into Western Society by
Comintern in order to confuse the Running Dog Imperialists."

Boy, this quote-inventing game is fun!  Thanks, guys...

Bill
----

Really?  Gee, I gotta call all my Jewish friends.  They're sitting
on a gold mine!

Tom, 'fess up--you can't really be as stupid as you pretend to be,
can you?

Can he?

Bill
----

Yeah.  And another thing:  why aren't there any goyim--sorry,
make that "goyims" on the list of Jews sent to Birkenau?  Obviously,
the Nazis deliberately excluded goyims from this list, thus
proving themselves pawns of the international JOO conspiracy.

(Tom, please don't include this in "The Best of Billy Anderson. I
mean, it does make you look ridiculous and all, but it really isn't
up to snuff.  It's late.  I'm tired.)
 
Bill
----


Yes, Li'l Tommy-- Danny teaches at MIS, which stands for "Miskatonic
Institute of Surreality."  They're summoning the Old Gods to help 
ZOG in it's campaign to undermine the Noble Aryan Race.

Wanna apply?

Bill
----


We get paid according to the number of Aryan children we corrupt,
Tommy. Payment is in Gold Bullion, dropped down our chimneys by Black
Helikopters.

Bill
----


And when one debates a Holocaust denier, one is debates a fool.
Usually, on is debates an illiterate fool.

Bill
----


Damn it!  

Calling all ZOG agents--People's Hero Giwer has discoved that the 
American Arbitration Association is in on the Grand Unified 
Konspiracy.  Burn-bag all pertinent documents with extreme prejudice.

Bill Anderson
Coordinator, Committee on Coordination
Hibernian Occupation Government
--------------------------------


Add Monty Python to the staggeringly long list of things about which
Moran knows nothing.

Bill
----


Oh, geez--just when I think I'm getting good at Moranian, something
like this pops up...

Sigh.

Okay--who's got that dictionary?

Bill
----


Funny; I just pointed my rigii at the Nizkor site, opened the file
menu, clicked on print, and a nifty little printout popped out.

Of course, I have the Secret ZOG Decoder software...

Bill
----


Uh...  I don't know, Tommy.  I suppose so, except that Hilary's is
a ring, and mine is software.  You do know the difference between
a ring and software, don't you, Tommy?

Bill
----


Well, really, I do too.  It's a severe breach of nettiquette,
of course; everybody knows you're supposed to post German documents
in Lithuanian.

Bill
----


Damn!  They're on to us again, guys--cheese it!

Bill Anderson
Third Sub-assistant to the Associate Director of Protocol
Hibernian Occupation Government
--------------------------------


Incredible.  He doesn't know what arbitration is.  

Moran, you must own a dictionary.  If you'd open it from time to time,
you wouldn't look like quite such an ass.

Bill
----


Is that an admission of illiteracy, Tom?

Bill
----


Make it stop.  Please.

Bill
----


I don't know anyone named McFly, but if he can stop you and Tommy 
>from  gibbering inanely on my monitor, I will search for him with
great dilligence.  Really, Matt--if people want to read the kind
of trash you've been posting of late, they can delve into the 
K12 hierarchy.  You've dropped to Moran's level, and you continue
to plummet.  I realize Alec's arrival has been tough on you, but
do try to keep your end up just a bit, huh?

Bill
----


What in the name of God is this man talking about?  I thought I had
gotten pretty adept at Moranian, but this just boggles the mind.

Anybody?  Help!

Bill
----


What in the name of God is an "afro-asian"?  Why are you
knuckledraggers constantly inventing new terms for people you want to
spit on?

Bill
----


Hey, maybe he's really going to do this!  Damn--I knew I'd regret
my procrastination in helping out Nizkor.

Ken, if I promise to mark up some pages real soon, can I come to 
Florida with you guys and spend Matt's money?  Huh?  Can I?
Please?

Bill
----


Dave, aren't you ever embarassed by this horseshit?  I mean, I
know you're only begging for attention, but aren't there less
humiliating ways to go about it?  I mean, couldn't you go on Ricki and
claim your Mother stole your transexual girlfriend or something?

I mean, have some self-respect, Dave.

Bill
----


Why am I not surprised by this?  You're brain really only has the
one channel, doesn't it, Tommy?

Tom Moran's retirement speech:

"Looking back over my many years of service to the United Toilet
Dredging Companies, I'm reminded of how evil the JOOS are..."

Bill
----


Yes, I'm quite sure you will.  You're dull, Bob.

By the way--you forgot to say "Mommy Professor" again.  You really
ought to see about these memory lapses.

Bill
----


Has anybody researched the historical relationship between Moranian
and Giwerundian?

Bill
----


You know, you're right, Tom.  We also have the Coca-Cola museum.  All
those lynchings, and all the Coca-Cola Company can think of is their
fizzy soft drink.  And don't even get me started on the Georgia Music
Hall of Fame.

Bill
----


	They use it to build orbitting mind-control lasers, Tommy.
Better check your tinfoil.

Bill
----


	Matt, you don't even read this stuff, do you?  Every holohugger
on this list has BEGGED you to include him or her in the "lawsuit
against Nizkor."  I'm begging you right now--please, please, please
include me in the lawsuit against Nizkor.  I haven't done any work for
them, but if you'll promise to include me in the "lawsuit," I'll pony
up some pages immediately.

Bill
----


8,347 at last count, wasn't it, Ken?  I mean, counting the guys
working on ways to counter tinfoil hats...

Bill
----


Wow!  There must be a logical link in there somewhere, but I
can't ind it...

Bill
---


He's quoting, in this case.  For some reason, one of Tommy's favorite
tricks is to take funny posts by his opponents--especially the ones
that make him look really, really silly--and post them under "Best
of..." subject lines.  It's possible he feels this helps his cause
somehow, but nobody else has been able to see it.  

This post, for instance, will probably go under "The Best of Billy
Anderson".

Bill
----
=======================================================================

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 14 12:23:40 PDT 1996
Article: 74148 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Anti-Semitism"? Then, so be it.
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 12:55:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	"Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism".

	If this means complaining about the Jews killing children,
bombing civilians in Lebanon and all the rest of the ugly Zionist
history, then, so be it.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 14 12:23:41 PDT 1996
Article: 74160 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Treblinka Defined - Leleko Interrogation
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:45:20 GMT
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                    BEHOLD THE ABSURD

	This is another testimony by Leleko, posted by McVay and Company.
So far this will be the 4th time a response was posted. McVay nor
anyone else has come back to challenge the points.


kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: 4/19/96	

>Archive/File: camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka leleko.002
>Source: United States Department of Justice

>                            EXCERPT 
>               From Interrogration of Defendant

>February 21, 1945. Lieutenant EPPEL', Investigator of the Fourth
>Department of the "SMERSH" Directorate of Counterintelligence of the
>Second Belorussian Front interrogated as defendant -

>      LELEKO, Pavel Vladimirovich, born in 1922, native of the village
>      of Chaplinka, Chaplinka District, Nikolayev Region, Ukrainian,
>      citizen of the USSR.

	This report like all the rest lacks a certain detail that one
might expect from a real hearing. This report is really an
"interogation" of a person who testifies to the mass extermination of
human beings at Treblinka, an alleged extermination center. It is more
like some tale with a few questions inserted. A question is asked and
then Leleko goes off with a extended comment and the interogator never
poses any request for clarification. Even UFO story writers cover
their stuff more carefully.
	As far as Treblinka is concerned, there is nothing more to the
story than "eyewitness testimony". No photographs or anything. The
Treblinka chapter of the Holocaust story has it that the 40 acre camp
was built one year where the Germans exterminated up to 2,000,000 the
next year, demolished by the Germans the next year, and was nothing
more than a tree farm a next year later. (Other Holocaust facts have
it that the camp was over run in 1945 while it was still in full
operation.)

	(In the latest post on Leleko, he says the extermination section
of the camp was 7 or 8 hectares, 18 acres, maybe a little larger than
a pro-football stadium complex. As you will see, Leleko says 2,000,000
people were killed, hundreds of thousands buried, dug up, burnt, and
reburied, all within the confines of the 7 or 8 hectares.)

	The report is titled "EXERPT - interrogation of defendant". So we
know we are getting only part of the story. It took place in Feb. 1945
just a month after the Russians arrived at Auschwitz.
	
	Considering how this witness is called a defendant, we should
wonder what kind of proceedings these were. Did the defendant have a
lawyer? Who knows.
	Since the defendant was implicating other names in the testimony
we wonder if his testimony wasn't used in any trials for those named.
It would be interesting to see what these other named people testified
to. Maybe Nizkor (McVay) will post them if any exists. 
	Who knows. Maybe a Leleko never even existed. After all, the
Holocaust story refers to the Soviets as liars in the matter when its
convenient, such as who was responsible for the gross exaggerations of
the numbers said to have been killed at Auschwitz.
	One of the Almanac posts by McVay, titled "Treblinka's 'new and
improved' killing machine" describes a major renovation in the middle
of the existing extermination process at the camp, including 10 new
gas chambers, "although according to some sources the new building
included only six gas chambers", and Leleko didn't mention any of it
even though any dates given show he would have been there when any
changes were made.

                           Summary

	Whatever, excluding any reference to anything else, focusing just
on this testimony our summary observations would show that a "pit"
which was only a bit larger than a average sized residental swimming
pool could incinerate 1000 people at a time. That it had some kind of
fire at the bottom, that burned constantly, day and night yet could be
cleaned of ashes, that the people were either laid on rails over it,
dumped in, rolled in or were carried down into it, that 6,000 to 8,000
people were left over each day that the pit could not accommodate,
that there was always wild mayhem with arriving prisoners, that they
all knew right away what was going to happen to them but nevertheless
they were allowed to carry knives and razors, that the system was of
such a nature that the Germans had to endure total mayhem on a day by
day basis and even contibuted to it, that people in the gas chambers
tore or bit ears and noses off, that after the crushing ordeal of
tearing and/or biting ears and noses off the ones who survived were
mostly pregnant women, that the prisoners knew about their fate, yet
looked foward to the future, and that inspite of any McVay
"Transcription Note" the witness claimed 2,000,000 people were killed
there in one year. 
                        =============

                       The Full Excerpt
               (With step by step commentary)

>Question: What was the system of mass extermination of people in the
>German death camp of Treblinka?
>
>Answer: Two to three trainloads of doomed prisoners arrived daily at
>the Treblinka railroad station. Each train consisted of 60 cars. The
>train was brought in three installments into the second section of the
>"death camp". Twenty cars were brought in every half hour. As soon as
>the cars crossed the barbed wire, the guard was changed. The policemen
>escorting the train remained outside the camp and left on the
>locomotive to fetch the next batch of prisoners. The railroads cards
>brought into the camp were immediately unloaded by the guards. We
>started to unload the cars with the help of the so-called "blue crew"
>consisting of doomed prisoners wearing a blue armband on the sleeve.
>Those arriving were told that they must first go to the batch house
>and will then be sent further to the Ukraine. But the sight of the
>camp, the enormous flaming pyre burning at one end of the camp, the
>suffocating stench from decomposing bodies that spread for some 10 km
>around and was particularly strong within the camp itself, made it
>clear what the place really was.

	Okay, right here we have the statement that everyone arriving at
the camp became immediately aware of what was in store for them.
Notice the statement that the "enormous flaming pyre" was at one end
of the camp. Treblinka is reported to have consisted of 16 hectares
(about 40 acres). Another testimony on Treblinka states that all the
burying, unburying, burning and reburying took place right inside this
40 acres. As we will see later on in the report, the witness claims
2,000,000 people were murdered and disposed of in just one year, which
would be within the confines of the 40 acres.
	The witness states the smell from the raging pyre could be
smelled ten kilometers away. "Ten kilometers"?
 
>The people chased out of the cars with whips guessed immediately where
>they had been brought; some attempted to climb over the barbed wire of
>the fencing, got caught at it, and we opened fire on those who were
>trying to escape and killed them.
> We tried to quiet down the fear-crazed people with heavy clubs.
> After all those who were able to walk had been unloaded, only the
> ailing, the killed and the wounded remained in the railroad cars.

Again, all the people were aware of what was in store for them. As we
will see, this procedure was carried out 3,000 times, using just a
years duration of time as a component of the ciphering, not including
any other "years" the witness testified to.
	It seems the Germans didn't have a very good procedure for
keeping the intended victims from knowing what was in store for them,
and never did figure one out, having to go through this wild mayhem on
a day to day basis.

>These were carried by the prisoners
>belonging to the "blue crew" into the so-called "infirmary", the name
>given to the place where the ailing and the wounded were shot and the
>dead were burned.

	Right here we have the statement saying this "infirmary" was a
place that you entered and where the dead were burned. Try to
formulate a picture of this incineration process along the way.

> This place became particularly crowded when the
>prisoners marked for death who were brought in the railroad cars
>attempted to commit suicide. Thus, in March 1943 there arrived a train
>in which half of the prisoners cut their throats and hands with
>razors.

	Now the testimony so far says 3 trains a day arrived at the camp,
each having 60 cars, and 20 cars at a time were brought up to be
unloaded, which would make the total number of times this procedure
would have happened in a year about 3000 times. Thus on this one
occasion out of 3000 times, half the prisoners cut their own throats.
	Evidentally the Germans didn't search the prisoners before 
they were loaded on the train or they were allowed to carry razors and
knives. We might assume these razors were the flip out "straight"
razor types, common to the era. Are we to believe the Germans allowed
hundreds of these weapons to get through, especially knowing what kind
of place the prisoners were going? Was this the only trainload that
had possession of all these knives and razors? 
	The testimony that these people killed themselves before they
even got off the train would indicate they knew what was in store for
them even before unloading.

> While unloading was going on, the prisoners cut themselves
>with knives and razors before the eyes of us, the policement, saying: 
>"anyhow you will kill us". The majority of those who did not die of
>self-inflicted wounds were shot. After the unloading, all those who
>could stand on their feet were chased toward the undressing place.
>There the wormen were separated from the men and pushed into a special
>barrack, while the men were told to undress right there outside
>another barrack. During the first years of the existence of the camp,
>women and men undressed together in the same barrack,

	The Holocaust story has it that Treblinka was in operation for
only a year yet here we have the testimony, "During the first years of
the existance of the camp ...". Evidentally this testimony wasn't
synchronized with other accounts that had to have the process of the
camp last only one year.

> But it happened
>once that the prisoners attacked the "chief of the working crew" in
>the undressing barrack. Somehow the man managed to escape from there.
>Several policemen and Germans immediately rushed in. One of the
>Germans started firing into the crowd from his sub-machine gun. After
>they had stopped shooting, the Germans and the policemen started to
>beat with clubs and whips those who survivied. After this incident,
>men were assigned a special place in the  open air in which to
>undress, by the barrack, across from the women's undressing place.
>Pushed by the clubs of the Germans and the policemen, the men threw
>off their clothing, having first handed their valuables and money to a
>special "cashier's office". The women were obliged to remove their
>shoes before entering the undressingplace. They were forced to remove
>all their clothing under the supervision of German policemen and
>prisoners of the so-called "red crew". Those who resisted were
>whipped.

	Here we have the first accounts of the brutal sadistic nature of
the Germans. 

>Very often the Germans and the policemen tore off and cut off the
>clothing of those who did not want to undress or undressed too slowly.
>Many women begged to be allowed to keep at least some clothing on
>their persons, but the German, smiling cynically, ordered them to
>undress "to the end". The policemen or the workers threw to the ground
>and undressed who refused to do so. The undressed women were told to
>hand over all their valuables and money to the "cashier's office".
>After this the women were driven in groups to another part of the
>barrack, where 50 prisoners - "hairdressers" were working. The women
>sat on a long bench and the "hairdressers" cut off their hair. The cut
>hair were packed in large bags and sent by trainloads to Germany. One
>of the Germans told me that in Germany they are used to fill
>mattresses, also for soft upholstery. He said that this hair make very
>good mattresses and the Germans buy them willingly.

	The hair was bagged and sent to Germany to be made into
mattresses and upholstery. This is in the same ilk as the now defunct
soap story which was well publicized in the early years after the war.
We could take special note of the attack on the German people in
general with "He said that this hair make very good mattresses and the
Germans buy them willingly". "Willingly" to imply they knew what they
were buying.

>good mattresses and the Germans buy them willingly.
>After their hair was cut the women were sent in batches to the third
>section of the camp, to the "bath house", but in reality to the gas
>chamber to be exterminated there.
>
>Before entering the gas chamber building they passed along a long path
>bordered on both sides with a high fence made of barbed wire and
>branches. Along the edge of the path stood policemen and Germans. Each
>one held a whip or a club. I stood repeatedly on the edge of this path
>with other policemen and drove along with a whip the women and the men
>into the gas chamber building. Many women were not quite sure that
>they would now be exterminated and in order to have some means of
>subsistence in the future, they hid some valuables on their persons.

	All of a sudden the prisoners, who in the immediate previous
testimony were all supposed to know they were going to die, hid their
valuables so they would "have some subsistence in the future".
"Future"? 

>To prevent this, the Germans placed special controllers in the center
>of the path. When they noticed that a woman walked along the path
>holding her legs close together, she was stopped at once and cynically
>examined, and if anything was found on her, she was beaten almost to
>death. The men walked more quietly down this path. Several times I
>heard how one, speaking to another, asked: "Why are you weeping? Do
>you believe you can arouse compassion in these Germans?" Frequently we
>could hear cries of "Hail Stalin!", "Hail the Red Army!" To us Russian
>guards, they said: "Today you exterminate us, and tomorrow the Germans
>will be killing you".
>
>When the procession of doomed people approached the gas chamber
>building, MARCHENKO and Nikolay, the motorists of the gas chambers
>shouted: "Walk faster, or the water will become cold!" Each group of
>women or men was pushed from behind by some German and very frequently
>by Franz, the camp commander himself, escorted by dogs. As they
>approached the gas chambers, the people started to recoil in horror,
>sometimes they tried to retrace their steps. Then whips and clubs were
>used. Franz immediately ordered his dog to attack the naken people.
>Each trained for this, it grabbed them by their genitals.

	Okay, more stories of German brutality. 

>Aside from the motor operators who had dogs with them, there were five
>or six Germans near the gas chambers. With whips and clubs they chased
>people into the passage of the gas chamber building and then into the
>gas chambers. The Germans and the motor operators then competed as to
>atrocities with regard to the people to be killed. MARCHENKO for
>instance, had a sword with which he mutilated people. He cut off the
>breasts of women.

	Can you picture it. As the Germans and the Russian motorman were
herding the people into the gas chamber they took time to hack a few
in front of the others. Evidentally the Germans didn't worry about
this causing any panic among the rest, all this happening again and
again during the 3000+ times the procedure took place. Can you picture
it? Womens breasts laying around on the ground. What happened then?
Did they just file the people into the chambers over the cut off
breasts or did someone have to go around and pick them up? Did they
put the mutilated body parts in containers and then take them over to
the cremation along with the rest of the bodies?
 
>When the chamber was filled to capacity, the Germans or the motorists
>came to the door and started beating up the naked people with a rubber
>whip and at the same time set their dogs against them. The prisoners
>shrank away into the depth of the chamber yielding place to more
>prisoners.
> Such a pressing-in occurred several times so that some 700
>to 800 people could be crowded into the not-so-large chambers. When
>the chambers were filled to the very limit, the Germans started to
>throw in the children left by the women either in the undressing place
>or more frequently outside the gas chamber building. As the ceiling of
>the gas chambers was very low, the children thrown into the chamber
>hit the ceiling and then, disfigured, sometimes with broken heads,
>fell on the heads of the prisoners.

	We will recognize by the end of what is given, we can not get a
picture of this chamber in our heads or the size of the door. But
according to a previous post by McVay "Holocaust Almanac: The Killing
Begins" posted 10/23/95, the doors would have been barely three feet
across by 5 feet high. This Leleko testimony says kids were thrown in
over the heads of those in the chamber. The ceiling is said to have
been very low. An average ceiling is about 8 feet, but this one was
very low. Seven feet? Six feet? Now how far could someone throw a
child in under the circumstances described?  The people were densed
packed in, so they must have been right at the door way too. How did
the Germans contain this situation while throwing in the children
through a 3 foot by 5 foot door with very little head room as the
space that the children were thrown? According to the other mentioned
testimony, fake shower heads were installed which one might think even
put more of a problem of throwing in babies over the heads of the
dense packed people.
	Whatever, the McVay Almanac account says "There had been
instances in the old chambers in which little children had not been
asphyxiated because gas rose to the ceiling". This seems thoroughly
contradictory to this Leleko testimony, or vice versa.	

>When loading of the chambers was completed, they were sealed off by
>hermetically closing doors. 

	On the one hand the witness says a chamber was loaded with 800
people and the another post by McVay from the Almanac says 600. 

>Motorists MARCHENKO and Nikolay started
>the motors. The gas produced went through the pipes into the chambers.
>The process of suffocation began.

	This person is under the opinion that the extermination process
was by suffocation and not the result of being poisoned with carbon
monoxide. In the other testimony mentioned, it says the gas was
introduced through the piping to the showerheads, a story that was
applied at on time to tales of Auschwitz, and other camps now revised
as having never been extermination camps in the first place. 

> Some time after the motor had been
>started, the motorists looked into the chambers through special
>observation portholes situated near each door, in order to determine
>how the process of extermination was going on. When asked what they
>saw, the motorists answered that the people were writhing, crushing
>each other. I also tried to look through the porthole, but for some
>reason could see nothing. 

	He looked in but couldn't see anything? Was this only once out of
all the time he was there, or did he attempt it numerous times? The
motorman didn't seem to have any problem looking inside, even though
he should have, since the Almanac says there were no lights at all
inside the chamber. 

>Gradually the noise in the chambers died
>down. Some fifteen minutes later the motors were stopped and there was
>an unusual silence.
>
>While extermination of this batch of prisoners went on, a new batch of
>condemned people arrived into the camp. The entire process started all
>over again.
>
>Question: What was done with the bodies of the prisoners?

	So we can see from this question the interogators weren't
concerned with or didn't formulate any questions while listening to
the witness.

>Answer: When the process of extermination by gasses was completed, the
>outer doors of the chambers were opened. The disfigured, bitten
>prisoners, with torn-off noses and ears lay on top of each other in
>the most varied postures.

	Suddenly "outer doors". Actually going by the description of how
the Germans made a number of whippings to get more and more people
into the chambers, "800 in a not too large of a chamber" we wonder how
they would have room to "writher and crush" each other. They should
all have died standing up.
	What happened inside the chambers? The prisoners "tore off" their
own noses and ears or they tore each others noses and ears off? How
did they do this in a tight dense pack situation like the one thus
described? How does one tear off noses and ears? Maybe it means the
victims bit each others ears and noses off.
	This didn't seem to be the case in the tales of Auschwitz.
Perhaps Holocaust defenders would say it because they were gassed with
carbon momoxide. Yet carbon monoxide is a very sutble gas. Many people
have died from just being in the same room with some brickettes,
trying to keep warm. They die in their sleep. And of course many
people have committed suicide by sitting in their car with a hose
running from the tail pipe through a window. Are these all reported to
have died in a writhering agony?

>Several hundred prisoners destined for death and belonging to the
>"working crews" were chased to the gas chamber building and they
>started to unload the chambers.

	Several hundred were involved in unloading the chambers.      

> In order to facilitate the removal of
>the dead bodies from the chambers, streams of water were poured over
>them. The bodies were laid on stretchers. An especially assigned man
>with pincers stood right there and opened the dead mouths. If he found
>any gold teeth he yanked them out with his pincers. The bodies were
>carried on stretchers to the special furnace about which I have
>testified earlier.

	Here we have it one guy, "An especially assigned man" standing
"right there" to pull the teeth as the hundreds of workers filed up to
and away from the chamber. We can imagine the process would be quite
confusing, what with all the bodies crammed in, the workers lined up
to get the bodies, stopping to have the teeth pulled out of the body
they were carrying, filing past each other back and forth over the
path as they retrieved and carried away back to be cremated. All this
with body parts laying around on the ground?

> On the way there, under the effect of the fresh
>air, some of the killed, especially pregnant women, began to revive,
>to groan.

	After the massive crushing into the chamber(s), there to wait 15
minutes while the gas was introduced and people were writhering in the
dense pack situation, tearing and/or biting noses and ears off, it
turns out the ones that survived were mostly pregnant women.  

> We the policemen, shot them on the spot and I had to shoot
>them too. The bodies were laid on the rails of the incinerator where
>the fire burned already. Some 800-1000 bodies were laid on the
>incinerator at one time.

	Take note of these mentioned "rails". Were they over some kind of
pit? Maybe we'll find out down the road. We can hold onto the "800 to
1,000 bodies" for future comment.  

> They continued to burn for some five hours.

	Amid this testimony it is said that a new batch was brought in
every half hour, that there were 2 to 3 trains a day coming in, each
one holding 3,500 to 4,000 people. Lets take the 3,500, giving the
Holocaust story the benefits of the lower numbers. This would be
rounded off, 10,000 people a day. Giving the Holocaust story the
benefit of the two numbers we can say 1000 people were cremated every
6 hours, giving time for loading the bodies and recovering any ashes.
This would come out to roughly 4 loads a day, 1000 people per load,
4,000 a day, leaving 6,000 left over, daily. Not giving the Holocaust
story any accomodation in the numbers the number of people left over
beyond the system's capacity would be 8,000. 

>This incinerator functioned ceaselessly day and night. After the
>bodies had been burned, the prisoners belonging to the "working crews"
>passed the ashes and remains of the bodies through a sieve.

	Now this conveniently accounts for why there has never been any
evidence found that would support the story of millions being killed.

> The parts
>of the body that had burned but had preserved their natural shape were
>put into a special mortar and pounded into flour. This was done in
>order to hide the traces of the crimes committed. Later on the ashes
>were buried in deep pits.
>
>During the first year of the existence of the "death camp", the bodies
>of the dead people were not burned but were buried.
	
	We can see the statement says the bodies were buried whole in the
first year, so this would do away with anyone trying to say the 6,000
to 8,000 left over bodies on a day by day occurance were not taken to
other areas to be burned, buried or whatever. The next statement
reiterates this.  

> Starting in 1943,
>after the incinerator was built, the pits with the bodies buried in
>them were opened up and the content burned.

	 The story having the bodies dug up, burned and reburied would
seem to explain why no evidence of such a vast undertaking exists. But
this is not the case. The vast amount of ashes in the disrupted
regolithic sequence of the soil would be subject to investigation and
determination by soil analysis and comparison with adjacent land, even
unto today. Especially since the whole thing was said to have taken
place within 40 acres of land, making location of the graves sites
easy, if any existed.
	It should be recalled that this interogation was supplied by the
Soviets, who never did one single forensic test or probe to verify any
of the allegations or testimony they presented. 

> All this work was done by
>the prisoners waiting to die under the supervision of the Germans and
>of us, the policemen.
>
>Question: What was the purpose of the so-called "infirmary"?
>
>Answer: The Germans gave the name of "infirmary" to that place in the
>death camp where the sick and wounded prisoners were killed. The
>"infirmary" covered a small area, in the center of which there was a
>large pit six to eight meters in diameter and three meters deep. At
>its bottom there always burned a fire into which the bodies were
>thrown.

	Okay. The "infirmary" has been identified again as the place
where the cremations took place. No other place is mentioned. Here we
are given further details as to the fire pit (incineration facility).
It was about 7 meters (21 feet) across and three meters (9 feet) deep.
Just a little bigger than the area size of a average residential
swimming pool. 

> The entire area of the "infirmary" was surrounded by a large
>fence of barbed wire and branches. To the side of the fire, around the
>corner of the fence, there was a sentry hut in which those who worked
>in the "infirmary" rested and warmed themselves. Those included MATUS,
>the German unterscharfu"hrer, whom we called the "doctor", the
>policeman-guard and five prisoners from the "working crew". On their
>sleeves they wore white bands with a red cross. When the trains
>carrying the doomed prisoners came in, all those who could not move,
>the ailing and the wounded were carried or assisted to the sentry hut
>in the "infirmary" by the prisoners belonging to the working crews.
>There the "infirmary attendants" quickly undressed them, brought them
>to the fire in groups of several and sat them on the ground. MATUS
>then approached them from behind and shot them one after the other
>either with his pistol, his submachine gun or his rifle.

	Of course a little more about German brutality.

> The dead rolled to the bottom of the pit to the fire.

	Okay, the dead "rolled" to the bottom of the pit, which would
indicate it was sort of bowl shaped. To the "bottom" of the pit and
thus to the "fire"? What kind of fire? Some logs burning at the
bottom? A grate over burners fed by gas or oil? What happened to the
"rails" that he said they laid the bodies on? Who knows? Will we find
out the answer to all this by the end of this report? No.

> We the guards who were on
>duty in the "infirmary" also took part in the shooting. When all the
>wounded and the sick had been killed, the "infirmary attendants" went
>down into the pit and threw the dead into the fire.

	Wait a minute. The workers went down into the pit to throw the
dead into the fires? But what about the "rails" or rolling the bodies
down?

> At least 100
>prisoners were shot daily in the "infirmary". It happened once that
>among the ailing in an incoming train there were the father and mother
>of one of the prisoners destined to die and belonging to a "working
>crew". Pushed by policemen, he carried his father to the "infirmary"
>to be shot. In the "infirmary", near the sentry hut, he and his father
>fell to the ground. MATUS threw himself at him with a whip. He then
>ran to the train and soon returned carrying his mother. After this he
>became insane. The German shot him and then killed the father and the
>mother.

	A special personal detail.
>
>Question: What were the "working crews" of the "death camp"? How were
>they assembled?
>
>Answer: As I have already testified, the servicing of the "death camp"
>was carried out by special crews composed of those who had been
>brought in for extermination. They camp comprised several "working
>crews", such as the "blue" working crew which unloaded the trains, the
>"red" working crew which serviced the undressing places, the "black"
>working crew which destroyed the bodies. There was also a special crew
>that sorted out the belongings of the killed. Altogether the crews
>numbered up to 1,500 persons. They also included some 15 women who did
>the washing of clothes. Selection into the working crew took place
>according to the need for their services - from among the prisoners
>brought to the camp to be exterminated. Until the end of 1942 the
>working crews were assembled every two-three days and correspondingly,
>every two-three days they were all exterminated in the "infirmary".

	Every three days the Germans exterminated 1,500 workers, in the
infirmary? Considering Leleko's previous statement "The
"infirmary" covered a small area ..." we might get the idea this would
be a bit chaotic. 

>Their extermination was conducted in the following manner. After work,
>around 10-11 p.m., a working crew of some 100-200 people was brought
>to the "infirmary". They were then taken into the place in batches of
>five and shot there by the policemen and the Germans. Those belonging
>to the working crews and who happened to be then near the barbed wire
>fencing in the "infirmary" could hear how their comrades were being
>killed and waited for their own death. Within one and one half or two
>hours hundreds of people had been shot and were burning on the fire.
>Working crews were also exterminated for having done something that
>displeased the Germans.

	The former workers were taken into the infirmary 5 at a time.
Okay. At least we don't have to struggle trying to conceive a picture
of them being in there all at once. But hold it. There were 1,500 all
together that were exterminated 5 at a time which would mean the
procedure would have had to repeat itself 300 times, taking place
during a time span of "one to one and a half to two hours", which
would come out to one batch every 20 seconds for a one and a half hour
duration. This must have been quite a scene, what with the other
bodies being brought in to the infirmary from the gas chambers. Why
did the Germans bring in the workers 5 at a time? The witness doesn't
say. 

>In September 1942, soon after I entered the "death camp" as they were
>laying down bodies for burial in the large pits, the workers killed a
>German who had shown particularly savage cruelty toward the prisoners.

	More German brutality.		

>Immediately the entire crew, numbering some 250 people, were grouped
>at the bottom of the pit together with the bodies that they had not
>yet had time to bury. The workers were executed right there over the
>bodies of the dead prisoners. One after the other they were brought to
>the end of the pit, laid on the dead bodies and their heads were cut
>off or split up with an axe or wooden mallet. All 250 were killed in
>this way.
>
>A similar case occurred soon after in the first section of the "death
>camp".
>
> During the evening inspection, a German conducting the
>inspection, displeased with the workers because their answers were not
>clear enough, started to beat them in turn and during this incident,
>one of the workers hit him with a knife. The entire crew was
>immediately surrounded by Germans and policemen. Every fifth worker
>was killed with axes in full view of the entire assembly. Over 50
>persons were thus hacked down.

	More German brutality.

>It happened that the Germans learned that several among the working
>crews were preparing a riot. These people, they were found to be ten
>of them, were seized and hung by their feet. They suffered for five
>hours and after they were dead they still hung on posts for three days
>in the middle of the camp. It was enough for a worker not to look
>pleasantly enough at a German, not to greet him, to be immediately
>killed. Nevertheless, goaded on with whips and bullets, they went to
>their death, led their kin, their relations to be shot, did everything
>they were ordered to do. The Germans not only exterminated them, but
>also used them for their own amusement. They forced them to stage
>comical plays, they organized a large orchestra composed of prisoners
>waiting to die, which played every day some light music under the
>windows of the camp commander. They also staged amusements of a
>different sort. One day the commander declared that he wanted to be
>the guest at a wedding among the doomed prisoners. Right away a young
>woman was picked out among the laundry women and a groom was found
>among the workers. Both were dressed in appropriate fashion and
>ordered to go through the complete wedding ritual. The "newlyweds"
>were given a separate room. On the second day the commander of the
>camp declared that the newlyweds must of necessity leave for a
>"honeymoon trip". Escorted by the guards and the Germans and also the
>workers, the "groom" and the "bride" were brought to the "infirmary"
>and shot and then thrown into the fire. Meanwhile the Germans ordered
>the workers to shout "Happy Voyage"! and "See you soon!"
>
>Question: Name the figure for the number of people exterminated in the
>Treblinka death camp?
>
>Answer: During my stay in the "death camp", i.e. during the period
>from September 1942 to September 1943, no less than two million were
>exterminated there. Every day, with rare interruptions, two-three
>trainloads arrived to the camp, each one bringing in some 3,500-4,000
>doomed prisoners. On the average six to eight thousand were
>exterminated daily. How many were exterminated in this camp during its
>entire existence I do not know. [Transciption note: using this
>man's own figures, the figure of two million cannot be supported - his
>figures suggest 1.2 to 1.4 million, or about double the generally
>accepted death toll for Treblinka. knm. Aug. 5, 1994]

	Heres one of McVay's "Transcription Notes". McVay is pointing out
the witnesses claim of two million as opposed to his statement of
4,000 a day, times the year, 365 days, 1,400,000. Which figure, 1.2
million or 1.4 million is double the "generally accepted" death toll,
McVay doesn't say. The one figure floating around is 900,000. Half of
1.2 million would be 600,000 and for 1.4 million 700,000.
	What should one make out of this testimony. Is the witness prone
to exaggeration or even downright lieing? McVay doesn't seem to have a
transcription comment on this. Oh well, 2,000,000 isn't to far from
600,000, 700,000 or 900,000, the Leleko figures being just two to
three times the Holocaust story's figures, which conforms to the
general standard for Holocaust figures.  

>Question: What was the nationality of those who were exterminated?
>
>Answer: The crushing majority were of Jewish nationality. They were
>brought to the "death camp" from Germany, Poland, Bulgaria and France.

	But of course. The Holocaust story is 99.999% a Jewish story.

>Possibly from other countries also, but of this I do not know. Aside
>from Jews, several hundred Gypsies and Poles were exterminated there.

	Okay 600,000, 700,000, 900,000 or 2,000,000 minus several hundred
gives us more of a perspective on what Leleko means by a "crushing
majority" were Jewish.
>
>This testimony has been written down from my words correctly, has been
>read by me (signature) LELEKO

                       >Interrogation made by: Investigator of the
Fourth Department of the
>SMERCH Directorate of Counterintelligence of the Second Belorussian
>Front, Lietenant (signature) EPPEL'
>
>The Excerpt is true: First Deputy Procurator of the Crimean Region,
>Senior Councillor of Justice. (KUPTSOV)

	 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>        Anonymous ftp: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>        European mirror: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 14 12:23:42 PDT 1996
Article: 74161 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who can make the guns shine?-The "Candyman Can"
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:45:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>In this case, according to the author of Secret Press
>in Nazi Europe, the "Candyman" is a Jewish
>partisan thief:

Would anyone be able to prove all the bravado alleged in this book?
All the bravado that would make it look like it was the Jews who won
the war? I'll bet it's all, or 99% fiction. The fantastic feats are
also common themes in Holocaust books. Going by the accounts you could
get the idea no partisans could have done anything without the Jews.
	Bravado. A component of "Chutzpah". 


>"Eliahu Baron, an engineer by profession, was a
>wholesale thief, specializing in weapons.  He supplied
>our people with guns.  He also stocked the Polish under-
>ground with vast quantities of weapons."
>
>Page 194.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 14 12:23:42 PDT 1996
Article: 74162 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Trains Kept on Rollin'
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:45:43 GMT
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>"In the four months of the year 1944, the Istrbitel (Destroyer)
>Unit, has derailed 44 enemy military trains.  Eleven of them
>were convoy troops and  the rest machinery and other
>military material."
>
>Source:  A Secret Press in Nazi Europe, pg. 193, by
>Isaac Kowalski.

Would anyone be able to prove all the bravado alleged in this book?
All the bravado that would make it look like it was the Jews who won
the war? I'll bet it's all, or 99% fiction. The fantastic feats are
also common themes in Holocaust books. Going by the accounts you could
get the idea no partisans could have done anything without the Jews.
	Bravado. A component of "Chutzpah". 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 14 12:23:43 PDT 1996
Article: 74163 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kill em all, let G-d sort em out....
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:45:45 GMT
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>"Rabbi Chaim Moshe Arbes was seventy-two years 
>old when he was forced to fight the Germans, near
>the small town of Buchawek, Poland....The old rabbi
>was a genius at planning.  He always seemed to know
>when to strike and where.  The sixteen guerillas ambushed
>German patrols and wiped them out.  They derailed German
>troop trains, blew up bridges, and destroyed supplies.  The
>guerilla band had killed more than one thousand Nazis (Germans-rb)
>In one of the battles the rabbi was captured while covering the
>retreat of the partisans, thus saving them all.  Rabbi Chaim
>Moshe Arbes was later hanged in the public square.
>
>SOURCE:  A Secret Press in Nazi Europe, Isaac 
>Kowalski, Shengold Publishers, pg.  189.

	Would anyone be able to prove all the bravado alleged in this
book? All the bravado that would make it look like it was the Jews who
won the war? I'll bet it's all, or 99% fiction. The fantastic feats
are also common themes in Holocaust books. Going by the accounts you
could get the idea no partisans could have done anything without the
Jews.
	Bravado. A component of "Chutzpah". 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 14 12:23:44 PDT 1996
Article: 74164 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: First step to the United States ban on Holocaust denial
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:45:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <326c6e37.2940519@199.0.216.204>
References: <3274030d.7434318@199.0.216.204> <53s04m$18a@juliana.sprynet.com>
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>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>                            
>>  
>>  	In the L.A.Times, 4/17/96, "Rotunda Rite in Remembrance of
>>  Holocaust" it was reported that the main responsible parties for
>>  supplying the arms of terrorism to Israel gathered at the Rotunda rite
>>  in observance or Day of Remembrance.
>>  	"Members of Congress, Jewish leaders and five Supreme Court
>>  justices gathered for the 15th Rotunda ceremony ..."
>>  
>>  	It didn't say how many members of congress attended, but it also
>>  reported that "Shortly after, the House passed, 420 - 0, a resolution
>>  deploring individuals who deny the historical reality of the
>>  Holocaust.
>>  	
>>  	First the "deploring" then the total caving in; Special
>>  exclusions to the First Amendment.
>>  
>>       NO MORE QUESTIONING OF HOLOCAUST REALITY 
>>  
>>>>>
>Third step will be that anyone who questions the Bible,
>the Koran, Buddhism, Scientology, etc. etc., will also be
>threatened with severe punishment and chastisement.


	The Koran? Never. If anything, this will be the only thing left
that is permissible to criticize.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 14 13:09:53 PDT 1996
Article: 74172 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Anti-Semitism"? Then, so be it.
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 00:07:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>
>	"Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism".
>
>	If this means complaining about the Jews killing children,
>bombing civilians in Lebanon and all the rest of the ugly Zionist
>history, then, so be it.

	An interesting paradox. Is a statement "antiSemitic" before it is
denounced as such, or is it only "anti-Semitic" after it is denounced
as such?

	Seems the statement has to come first. The user denounces it as
"anti-Semitic" thus making the user himself the one who creates the
"anti-Semitism".


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 14 14:08:30 PDT 1996
Article: 74187 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Happy "Columbus Was a Jew" Day
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 19:02:49 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Thats right. This is one of the ethnocentric claims by Jews. 
Without one single piece of evidence, with nothing more than super
racist egos, the Jews proclaim "Columbus was a Jew".


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 07:59:16 PDT 1996
Article: 74436 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: England to Enforce the Holocaust Lie
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:48:39 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:74436 alt.conspiracy:99675


	A couple of years ago I was at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum
in Washington, located right in the heart of things. While there I
visited the Museum's book store. There I ask the clerk how many titles
they had for sale, since there was real slue. The clerk said
"Thousands". I repeated "Thousands", looking around the store. The
clerk saw my astonishment and said "Oh you mean for sale? I thought
you were talking about the library, here we have about 700 titles".

	There are probably 15 major Holocaust museums in the world, and
maybe scores more of minor ones, not counting any special displays at
various locations, like universities and such.

	The topic gets plenty of coverage in and on our daily medias.

	It is part of the schools required curriculum in a number of
states.

	The schools take the kids by the bus loads to these museums.

	It's Holocaust, Holocaust, Holocaust to no end.

	So what's the problem? What's with all the intrigue. What's with
all the back door stuff? What's with all the charges?

	What with all the accommodation the Holocaust story gets, one
wonders who is into 'denial'.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 07:59:16 PDT 1996
Article: 74439 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 4 million lies
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:48:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 22
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>In article <326cf9fe.5115165@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>wrote:
>
>
>>         This is testimony at a trial? Then maybe 'prejury' is a word that
>> could be agreed upon.
> 
>I'm not familiar with this term, Mr. Moron, I looked in my Giwerese
>dictionary, but couldn't find it there either.
> 
>What is a prejury? And if it *is* a word, is there also a postjury?

	An aweful thing. Here have mispelled a word giving certain minds
the opportunity to focus on that instead of the 'meat' of the topic.

>Sara
>
>-- 
>"I do not mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy."
>                 Samuel Butler
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 07:59:17 PDT 1996
Article: 74440 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Anti-Semitism"? Then, so be it.
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:48:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 32
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>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
>
>
>
>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> >       "Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism".
>> >
>> >       If this means complaining about the Jews killing children,
>> >bombing civilians in Lebanon and all the rest of the ugly Zionist
>> >history, then, so be it.
>
>
>That isn't what it means, Moran and you know it. It's just your excuse 
>to say bad things about the Jews.
>Chuck

	Chuck, usually I don't bother clicking up your stuff, but seeing
how this one was only 18 lines altogether, and it was retrieved
automatically under the post I took a peek. Usually your stuff is real
lengthy. I don't mind reading some idiotic things now and then, but I
don't usually like long extended examples. I can see I was lucky with
this one. Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying it is any better than
the other stuff you have written. It just seems like it affords the
opportunity to incite you to go even beyond your usual. 

	Now Chuck, maybe you can say what you think the declaration
"means".
   
     


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 07:59:18 PDT 1996
Article: 74444 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.abs.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Diesel Gas Chambers: The Reality Explored
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:48:09 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <326360b6.104082@199.0.216.204>
References:   <53m6hi$qap@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <32660dce.19706101@199.0.216.204> <325f2db1.38344039@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <32607e51.472574@199.0.216.204> <3263f95b.5677502@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>	Ah yes, a professor speaks.
>
>Ah, yes, an uneducated boob responds.

	What? Another professor?
>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 10:56:44 PDT 1996
Article: 74484 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: England to Enforce the Holocaust Lie
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:17:40 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <326eb90b.14152030@199.0.216.204>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:74484 alt.conspiracy:99739

>Chuck Ferree writes:
>
>Moran, what the hell do you care? Do you want to run England too? 
>Seems to me that it's none of your friggin business pal. Why don't you 
>spend a little of your wasted life, helping your own country?

	Chuckie, when I come out here and do what I do, it is for my
country. What you do is to support all things Zionist. Your an idiot
Chuck. Your the one that came out here and tried to pass off the the
Jews bombing of our USS Liberty as an act of the CIA. 
	Again Chuck, when I come here and do what I do, it is for the
country and the world. 
	The Holocaust is for the Jews and has nothing to do with the
welfare of the nation or the world. $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$ and Israel Chuck.
That's the reality. That's the bottom line.
	 

>Mind telling us what it is that you do for a living? Are you on 
>welfare? Do you own a big business? What? Just curious.
>Chuck
>
>Nizkor FTP file: people/r/raven.greg/raven-on-hitler
>
>
>
>Archive/File: holocaust/usa/ihr raven.001
>Last-Modified: 1992/03/13
>
>GEnie:
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>Category 15,  Topic 4
>Message 33        Fri Mar 13, 1992
>G.RAVEN                      at 03:02 EST
>
>My only concern is in  going after the
>facts. As such, I am not interested in defending  Adolf Hitler to my 
>dying
>breath. I will say, however, that he was a  great man ... certainly 
>greater
>than Churchill and FDR put together,  and possibly the greatest leader 
>of our
>century, if not longer. This  is not to say that he was perfect, but 
>he about
>the best thing that  could have happened to Germany.
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>                               [ people/r/raven.greg ] 
>
>The Nizkor Project 
>webmaster@nizkor.org 
>Director: Ken McVay OBC 
>HTML: Jamie McCarthy 
>Financial Support 
>
>October 13, 1996 
>
>
>
>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>         If it can't be proven, ban the question.
>>         Storm the libraries. Storm the book stores.
>>      Burn the books.
>> 
>>         England: Oct. 1996
>> 
>> LABOUR PLEDGE TO LEGISLATE AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL
>> 
>> A Labour government will act to make Holocaust denial a criminal
>> offence, Opposition leaders pledged this week.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 10:56:45 PDT 1996
Article: 74486 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Dachau - to remind them of the truth
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:17:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <326fb926.14179657@199.0.216.204>
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                       Dachau was in Germany.
                       ======================

	Simon Wiesenthal Page, "Responses to Revisionists Arguments".

No. 12.  "Didn't Simon Wiesenthal himself state that there were no
extermination camps in Germany?"

"The Nazis classified their many hundreds of concentration camps on
their basis of their primary function. In a very real sense. all were
death camps because the death of the inmates, whether through over
work, starvation/disease, or outright murder, was ultimately expected.

Those sites, however, which functioned as extermination camps ..." 
                        --------------------

	The copy goes on for a paragraph about camps in Poland at the end
of which the answer to No. 12 is evidently 'Yes", Simon Wiesenthal
does admit there were no extermination camps in Germany.

	Whatever this person in the Nizkor post testifies to, should we
take the accounts as absolutely accurate, is the result of broken down
supply and administration of the camps as the German cities were being
bombed and the logistics became impossible.

	This person's testimony offers absolutely nothing to prove any
Holocaust. The only thing it would show is the state of the camps
during that period, after the collapse of Germany's system.

	It is therefore inadmissible as evidence.   


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 10:56:46 PDT 1996
Article: 74487 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Treblinka Defined - Leleko Interrogation
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:18:20 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 29
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	This is the summary of Leleko's other testimony that can be found
in Nizkor files and included with the major post in this thread. In
time this latest extract of Leleko's testimony posted by Nizkor will
get the same treatment. 

				       Summary
Nizkor Archive/File: camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka leleko.001
Last-Modified: 1994/08/08
---

Whatever, excluding any reference to anything else, focusing just
on this testimony, our summary observations would show that a "pit"
which was only a bit larger than a average sized residental swimming
pool could incinerate 1000 people at a time. That it had some kind of
fire at the bottom, that burned constantly, day and night yet could be
cleaned of ashes, that the people were either laid on rails over it,
dumped in, rolled in or were carried down into it, that 6,000 to 8,000
people were left over each day that the pit could not accommodate,
that there was always wild mayhem with arriving prisoners, that they
all knew right away what was going to happen to them but nevertheless
they were allowed to carry knives and razors, that the system was of
such a nature that the Germans had to endure total mayhem on a day by
day basis and even contibuted to it, that people in the gas chambers
tore or bit ears and noses off, that after the crushing ordeal of
tearing and/or biting ears and noses off the ones who survived were
mostly pregnant women, that the prisoners knew about their fate, yet
looked foward to the future, and that inspite of any McVay
"Transcription Note" the witness claimed 2,000,000 people were killed
there in one year. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 10:56:47 PDT 1996
Article: 74488 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Dachau - to remind them of the truth
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:19:09 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <3272b961.14238262@199.0.216.204>
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>Archive/File: camps/dachau/dachau.003
>Last-Modified: 1994/03/01
>
> Here's another perspective: From David H. Hackworth, the United States'
> military's most decorated living veteran, in his best-selling auto-
> biography, _About_Face_ (Hackworth is also a contributing editor with
> Newsweek magazine):

>   "On one cold winter's day, I took Patty [his wife] to Dachau.  The
>   horror of Hitler's vision was alive and well in this grim death
>   camp: the barracks, the ovens, the electrified barbed-wire fences,
>   remained intact.  A mound here held the bones of ten thousand Jews:
>   the one over there,twelve thousand more.

	Photos? None. Even though the place was swarming with Allied
cameramen. "Jews"? How would he know the bones were Jews?

> The place was a monument to
>   the darkest side of man, and yet - despite the smoke and ash that
>   rained down on their homes from camp incinerators, despite the
>   sickly smell of burning flesh and hair, which surely carried with
>   the slightest breeze as far, probably, as Munich - the villagers
>   claimed they hadn't know. I couldn't square it, anymore than I
>   could square the fact that not one of the laughing, backslapping,
>   congenial comrades I met (in their beer-belly filled lederhosen and
>   their jolly Bavarian green caps) had fought the Americans in the
>   West. All assured me they'd been on the Eastern Front, fighting
>   "the real enemy," the Russians. It was a story I heard in the
>   cities, too.  In fifteen years the Germans had come a long way in
>   their rewrite of history. But at least there's Dachau, I thought
>   to myself, to remind them of the truth." (Hackworth, 343,344)

	Evil German people.

>                              Work Cited
>
>   Hackworth, Colonel (U.S.  Army, Ret.) David H., and Julie Sherman.
>   About Face: The Odyssey of an American Warrior.  New York: Simon &
>   Schuster, 1989.  ISBN 0-671-52692-8
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 10:56:47 PDT 1996
Article: 74490 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A typical false eyewitness: Filip Muller, the plagiarist
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:16:42 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <326bb8e1.14110122@199.0.216.204>
References: <53ovn6$p03@Vir.com> <32637125.9912733@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <845312633snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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>In article <32637125.9912733@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
>           jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca "John Morris" writes:
>
>> Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>> 
>> >Excerp from 'Did Six Million Really Die?, testimony of Raul Hilberg:
>> 
>> > Christie turned next to the eyewitness account of Filip Mller [...]
>> 
>> Evidently the jury was a lot less impressed by Christie's effort to
>> entrap Hilberg into making an untenable statement than Mr. Beaulieu.
>> Ernst Zuendel was, after all, convicted by *two* juries of spreading
>> false news.
>
>Tell the whole truth, John, he appealed all the way to the Supreme Court
>and the verdict was overturned by a 4-3 ruling.

	When are ever going to learn Baron, you can't tell the truth and
sell the Holocaust story at the same time.

	Poor Mr.(Dr.)Morris. Did he forget to include the ultimate
outcome, or did he not know? Or, was he trying to dupe the reader by
omitting it. I mean after all, he is fanatically Holocaust dependent,
keen to every threat. 


>-- 
>"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself 
>the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 10:56:48 PDT 1996
Article: 74491 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More ADL - More Words
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:18:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <3271b950.14221181@199.0.216.204>
References: <326447e5.831564@199.0.216.204>
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	The last statement in all ADL ads found across the bottoms.
                     These are the words.


"Fighting Anti-Semitism . Combating Hate & Bigotry . Combating Hate &
Bigotry . Combating Terrorism . Protecting Religious Freedom . Victim
Support . Anti-Prejudice Training . Supporting Middle East Peace .
Interfaith Dialogue . Holocaust Education"

	This is the reality.

"Fighting Anti-Semitism"
	These people will tell us and have told us that any criticism of
Zionist policies is an act of "anti-Semitism". These people will tell
us revisionism is an act of the same.

"Combating Hate & Bigotry"
	These people will and have put numerous full page, half page and
quarter page ads in the newspapers, of which, if the words for
Catholic, Arab, Palestinians and many others were replaced with the
words Judaism, Jews, Zionism we would be hearing the bellows of
"anti-Semitism".
	Very good at dubbing others as haters and bigots but unable to
see their own, which gets lots of unopposed accomodation in and on our
medias.

"Combating Terrorism"
	Badgering the U.S. Congress to instill drastic measures that
sorely challenge humanities hard earned freedoms. Exploiting disaters,
including the Oklahoma City bombing.

"Protecting Religious Freedom"
	Of the same ilk that strove to have the cross banned from display
on public lands while giving their special child logic to legitimize
the menorah. 

"Victim Support"
	Holocaust survivors and refugees from the Soviet Union.

"Anti-Prejudice Training"
	While denying their own they will strive to show rare and
isolated incidents to represent the sentiments of the whole as to
others.

"Supporting Middle East Peace"
	On Jewish terms.

"Interfaith Dialogue" 
	Working hard to keep any religious denomination from raising any
criticism of Jewish and Zionist activites.

"Holocaust Education"
	At last. One true assertion. Working to have the Holocaust made
required curriculum in our school system while working even harder to
keep Holocaust revisionism from being openly discussed.


	The actual reality.

Portraiting Jews as the highest good.

Defending all Jewish interests.

Defending Zionist interests.

Intriguing for censorship.

A racist organization.

Holocaust Promotion.

Hypocrisy.

Ugly.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 13:55:56 PDT 1996
Article: 74505 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Anything "Zionist & Proud"/Holocaust
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:16:29 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <326ab8dc.14105124@199.0.216.204>
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				UWM.edu/Studentorg/tagar

   "Tagar at UW - Milwaukee presents the Israel Activist Center"

	Across a black background a BLAZING lightning strike from a
computer screen on the left with a Star of David, through a menorah in
the center and on to a satellite photo of Earth on the right side.

	"The goals of Tagar & Masada at UWM, are to promote and represent
the policies of the government of Israel and to defend Jewish
interests."

	"Tagar & Masada educate the public about Zionism and the
Holocaust ..."

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 13:55:58 PDT 1996
Article: 74508 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I'm lost here...
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 13:00:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 106
Message-ID: <3261e744.320926@199.0.216.204>
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>In article <3264305a.46049724@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>[Dr. Keren wrote:]
>
>> >Surely, you're not claiming that both IV and V were out for
>> >the summer of 1944? Also, you're making a mistake here; it's
>> >true that the furnaces in one of them broke down, however
>> >its gas chambers were still used, and the corpses burned
>> >in the open, behind the Krema.
>> 
>> Right out in the "open"? Right there among the camp, with a
>> hundred thousand prisoners, a thousand civilians coming and going on a
>> daily basis? Was it on top of the ground, or was there a pit? 

	VanAlstines stuff is below. On the way there we can pause to take
note of the above paragraph he didn't want to bother with.
 
>> >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/Pit.jpg
>> 
>> Looky here. Mr.Keren has supplied a reference to a photograph.
>> And what is this photo of? Germans burning typhus fatalities? Germans
>> in the process of cremating victims? Germans cremating victims out in
>> the fields? Civilians in the Eastern areas burning bodies they killed?
>> Or even Allied troops burning bodies at Buchenwald or Belsen?
>
>Try a clandestine Polish Resistance photo of gassed Hungarian Jews being
>incinerated in an open-air pit behind Krema V at Auschwitz during Aktion
>Ho"ss. 

	First we can note that the discussion that led up to this was
about Crema IV, and this seems why Mr.Keren referred to the photo. But
here we have Mr.VanAsltine saying it is from behind Crema V. The
Nizkor source doesn't have a statement on it at all.

	"Clandestine" Mr.VanAlstine says. He says it was a clandestine
photo.  Looks like it was taken with a 50 mm lens. From 30 or 40 feet.
Mr.VanAlstine says it is Krema V. This building ran east - west length
wise. Behind it was a fence. Either the photographer was right there
inside the compound or he was on the outside.

	If he was on the outside he would be facing the inside.
Mr.VanAlstine and Mr.Keren says "behind" Crema IV or V. We're talking
about Mr.VanAlstines Crema V right now. This means he was facing the
building and the shot should show it in the background.
	Who knows, maybe he was hiding in a box or something on the
inside. We can see the shot is from about the same level of a person
standing up. Maybe it was an old refrigerator box.
     In fact there are trees in the background instead of a Krema.
Actually there were a number of trees around the building, as shown in
aerial photographs. First this would make it an unlikely place for
pits. What, having to cut down trees and then dig through the roots?
Not only this, the aerial photo of Jan. 14, 1945 shows considerable
trees around the building with only a little clear spot running
east-west to the corner of the compound. The photo shows the activity
taking place in a clear spot. It would have to be that one, since
trees don't grow as big as the ones in the photos in the period of
time from Fall of 1944 to Jan. of 1945.
     In this case we would expect there should have been some kind of
forensic dig, what with a precise location like the one described and
said to be supported by this photo. But nay, there was none.      
     Even to this day we should expect to find absolutely definable
evidence if such activity of burning many bodies over the period of
time the Cremas are said to have been shut down. An opportunity not
afforded most archeological researches. What with the revisionist rise
one would think this would be a good opportunity to show the stuff. 

	Instead of spending too much time with wordy analysis, maybe
Mr.VanAlstine and Mr.Keren can come back and reconcile the photograph
with references to the aerial photos as to where the scene would be
taking place and where the photographer would have been.
	As to the other evidence offered into validate the nature and
primary source of the photo, titles and pages to books doesn't do it.

 

>I[Moranic (tm) drivel snipped]
>
>> Is Mr.Keren going to come back and tell us, thats it, the photo
>> was taken behind Krema IV? And is he going to prove it? We'll have to
>> wait and see.
>
>Try reading the cited page in _Technique_, Moran, before you stick your
>other foot in your mouth again. If that taxes your "research skills" too
>much you  might try pages 172-175 of _Auschwitz: a history in
>photographs_.

	"Auschwitz: A History in Photographs" shows a pile of bundled up
blankets, all very clean, all the same, but nevertheless captioned to
say they were ceremonial shawls confiscated from Jewish women. The
photographs in this book made me realize that photos are the enemy of
the Holocaust story.


>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 14:12:17 PDT 1996
Article: 46623 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism,alt.politics.scorched-earth,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Diesel Gas Chambers: The Reality Explored
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:17:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <326db8f9.14134619@199.0.216.204>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:46623 alt.politics.scorched-earth:583 alt.usenet.kooks:30051

>On Sat, 12 Oct 1996 03:17:35 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>
>>>http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/diesel-1.html
>
>>	The reason Mr.McVay doesn't just post the stuff out here for the
>>reader is so it won't be readily available for a critique.
>
>The reason Mr. McVay doesn't just post the stuff out here is that it has
>already been posted out here a dozen times and yet idiots still keep saying
>that diesel exhaust won't kill.

	Then you assume that it is always the same old people out here? I
don't make such assumptions. I find that there are more and more
people interested in the topic. Revisionism is a growing thing. McVay
should be reposting. 

	Doesn't matter much, because I'll go in and bring it out, then
ring it out.

	
>It is also a skill testing proposition for you - to see if you can finally
>learn how to run your web browser.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 14:58:55 PDT 1996
Article: 74542 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: First step to the United States ban on Holocaust denial
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:48:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	One could bet the Jews are constantly badgering the members of
congress on having them instill a total ban on questioning the reality
of the Holocaust story and make it a crime. Just as in the wording of
the English consideration, a "crime".

	The 420 - 0 vote by the House shows to what extent they are
afraid of the Wicked Witch. In fact, the only time your going to see
such total agreement between either party and to see such overwhelming
votes - 0, is with things that have something to do with Jewish
interests. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 14:58:56 PDT 1996
Article: 74543 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:48:13 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <326460bb.108916@199.0.216.204>
References:  <53ndt6$dbq@juliana.sprynet.com> <53nnq0$cub@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <32617f17.671128@199.0.216.204> <53p7jd$8he@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3260e70b.263914@199.0.216.204> <32611381.476B@ccnis.net>
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>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> >On Sat, 12 Oct 1996 11:25:29 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> "Just Moshe":
>> >>>     The People have been here since the moment of the creation.  We will be
>> >>>here after your footprints in the sand have been covered by the Wind.
>> 
>> Moran:
>> >>      "The moment" of "creation"?  Archeological reckoning doesn't have
>> >>the Jews around until maybe 1200 BC. By that time the Egyptians had
>> >>been around for two thousands years.
>> 
>> "Just Moshe":
>> >       The Book tells us the truth that surpasses understanding.
>> 
>> Moran:
>>      If it's beyond understanding, how would you know? If it's beyond
>> understanding, what good does it do. How would one explain something
>> beyond understanding?
>> 
>>         The book was written when the world was flat.
>> 
>>         The book was written when the planets were gods.
>> 
>>         The book was written when birds were smashed against altars.
>> 
>>         The book was written when Urim and Thummim were tossed to make
>> decisions.
>> 
>>         The book includes "dragons" and "satyrs", and a whole slue of
>> other associated thoughts.
>> 
>> 
>Tom, calm down--you were duped by Matt Giwer.  There is no "Moshe".  

	You could be right. But look at it this way, his impersonation
was aweful realistic.

>-- 
>Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
>Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
>European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>
>And be sure to check out:
>http://www1.us.nizkor.org/~fatbroad



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 17:18:48 PDT 1996
Article: 74566 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Secret Lie in Nazi Occupied Europe
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:47:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>In the book, "A Secret Press in Nazi Europe", the
>author writes the following:

	It just goes to show, the more Holocaust books there are, the
more unbelievable the story becomes. The more books there are the more
contradictions. The more contradictions, the less creditability for
any testimonies that can't be shown to have a contradiction.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 17:18:49 PDT 1996
Article: 74567 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Kind of Stuff Danny Keren Likes to read
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:49:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>According to Isaac Kowalski:
>
>"The picture of post war Germany, broken and
>in ruins, was not pretty.  The wives and daughters
>of the herrenvolk sold themselves for a crumb of
>bread......The country became one huge brothel
>and even the men crawled on their hands and
>knees for a handout from the Americans and other
>allied troops....the Germans who remained in Poland
>after the war had to wear armbands, for a time, like
>the Jews had to wear while under the Nazi rule, and
>they had to walk in the gutter, not on the sidewalk."
>
>From:  A Secret Press in nazi Europe, pg. 18.

	It's obvious this book emanates from a process of wishful
thinking.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 17:18:49 PDT 1996
Article: 74584 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Secret Lie in Nazi Occupied Europe
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:44:14 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>In the book, "A Secret Press in Nazi Europe", the
>author writes the following:
>
>"In the Katin forest, not far from the city of Smolensk
>in White Russia, some five thousand Polish officers 
>were murdered.  They were shot in the head, hands
>tied, and laid in the pits with their hands tied.  In 1943
>the Germans trumped up charges that it was done by the 
>Bolsheviks."  Pg. 15,16.
>
>Comment:  Now, here is more lies from supporters of
>the Holocaust.  the author who wrote this book was
>also a Jewish partisan who fought against the Germans
>in Poland and Russia, and who published his "Secret
>Press in Nazi Europe"....and we will be hearing more
>about this later.  Perhaps he had a reason for white-
>washing his Soviet friends..........

	It's easy to figure out. We couldn't have the Soviets admitted to
be commiters of atrocities when they are the main suppliers of
'evidence' to the Nuremberg trials. And don't forget, it has the
Germans doing it, thereby being another example of how naughty they
were, and thereby circumstancial evidence for the Holocaust.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 17:18:50 PDT 1996
Article: 74585 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos in Holocaust books
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 13:01:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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References: <326e954a.6353943@199.0.216.204>  
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>In article <326e954a.6353943@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>wrote:
>
>>                         
>>         In Nora Levin's book, "THE HOLOCAUST" we are shown a picture,
>> "furnace, probably from Auschwitz, ..."
>> 
>>         "Probably"?
>
>probable adj. [ME < MFr < L probabilis < probare, to prove: see PROBE] 1
>Likely to occur or be; that can reasonably but not certainly be expected
>[the probable winner] 2 reasonably so, as on the basis of evidence, but
>not proved [the probable cause of a disease] -probably adv.

>_Webster's New World Dictionary_, Third College Edition. 

	It would be interesting to see how the picture was determined to
be "probably". Above it restates the word, "likely", "reasonably so".
It doesn't matter much. The picture doesn't correspond with
descriptions of ovens at Birkenau. The picture is only one oven, which
appears kind of ridiculous within a book that is out to sell the story
of millions killed. The oven is clearly too small to accomodate more
than one body at a time. And in the end, we are never going to know if
it is probable or improbable. The picture, considering U.S. codes of
evidence, is not admissible.

>Mark


>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 17:18:51 PDT 1996
Article: 74587 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Belsen: The Suppressed Story
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 14:23:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 26
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>In article <53q9q9$o0m@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> Mr. Harmon-you have been given an in-depth view
>> of the actual situation at Belsen, and your close-
>> mindedness is evident for the world to see.  I
>> have posted the facts in this case, but you ignore
>> them because you are the victim of your own
>> prejudices.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

	'Your Honor, I would like to state my empirical opinion.'

>"So sayeth Herr Schwarzesel, the lying scumbag Nazi apologist. "

>Mark
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 15 19:07:51 PDT 1996
Article: 74594 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Wife of Major Hoople
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:33:39 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>As promised, here is more from the testimony of
>Ada Bimko, this time regarding the number of Jews
>allegedly killed in the "gas chambers" at Auschwitz:
>
>Q:-  Have you ever been in the gas chambers?
>
>A:-  Yes.  In August, 1944, I was working in a 
>portion of the camp as a doctor.  A new crowd of
>those selected for the gas chamber had arrived,
>and as they were sick, they came covered with
>a blanket.

-------------------------------------------------------
>  After TWO DAYS we were told to 
>fetch all those blankets from the gas chamber.

	What they went to the gas chambers with their blankets? But what
about the usual story of the victims having to take off their clothes?
Oh, they took off their clothes and then resituated the balnket and
went off to the gas chamber? They went into the gas chamber with their
blankets? For two days worth of extermination the blankets piled up in
the gas chamber? All piled on the floor? New victims going in had to
step over all the blankets? 

---------------------------------------------------
>I took the opportunity, as I always wanted to see
>this ill-famed gas chamber, and I went in.

	The "ill famed" gas chamber. "I always wanted to see ...". Oh,
everyone in the camp knew about it? This account has it the Holocaust
wasn't a secret?

---------------------------------------------------
>  It was a
>brick building, and there were trees around in a way
>as if it were camouflaged.  In the first room I met a man
>who came from the same town as I do.  There was also
>an SS man with a rank of Unterscharfuehrer, and he belonged
>to the Red Cross.  I was told that in this first big room the people
>left their clothes, and from this room were led into a second,
>and I gained the impression that hundreds and hundreds might
>go into this room, it was so large.  It resembled the shower baths or
>ablution rooms we had in the camp.

	"Shower heads"?  "I was told ...."? She went in and the SS man
said, 'Oh, let me give you a guided tour. Here's where we have them
undress. And these are the stone barrs of soap we give them to make
them think they are going in for a shower. And over here we have,
Wahla, the gas chamber'.

-------------------------------
>  There were many sprays all
>over the ceiling in rows which were parallel.  All these people who
>went into this room were issued with a towel and a cake of soap.
>so that they should have the impression that they were going to have
>a bath, but for anybody who looked at the floor it was quite clear 
>that it was not so, because there were no drains..

	"No drains"? But what about the stories of the chambers being
washed out after each gassing?


>..I saw a few lines of rails with a small wagon which 
>they called a lorry, and I was told that prisoners who
>were already gassed were put on these wagons and sent
>directly to the crematorium.

	"Rails" and a "lorry"? This must have slipped all the other
witnesses memory. 

>  I believe the crematorium
>was in the same building but I myself did not see the stove.

	"Stove"? Maybe just a translation problem. 

>There was yet another room a few steps higher than
>the previous one with a very low ceiling, and I 
>noticed two pipes which I was told contained the
>gas.  There were also two large metal containers
>containing gas."

	The SS person continuing his guided tour, 'And over here are the
pipes to carry the gas'. Bimbo responds, 'Oh what are those over
there?'. The SS says 'Those are the cans that hold the gas'. Bimbo
goes 'OOOH'.

	Well so much for the Zyklon B story, along with all the holes in
roofs, wire, sheet metal and/or concrete columns, SS and doctors on
roofs, tipsy ladders against side windows, Ho'ss testimony and the
rest of the corny myriad.	
>
>From:  The Belsen Trial, pg. 68.




From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct 16 07:15:58 PDT 1996
Article: 74726 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: England to Enforce the Holocaust Lie
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:33:17 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 15
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>	
>	If it can't be proven, ban the question.
>	Storm the libraries. Storm the book stores.
>     Burn the books.
>
>	England: Oct. 1996
>
>LABOUR PLEDGE TO LEGISLATE AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL


	Lets see. We have Jack Straw, Tony Blair and Robin Cook as the
principle names of those dropping to their knees.

    Thousands of strong people have died for mankinds quest to
legitimate freedoms and all it takes is a few living weak to waste it.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct 16 07:15:59 PDT 1996
Article: 74763 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Anti-Semitism"? Then, so be it.
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:48:04 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 25
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References: <326d9545.6348890@199.0.216.204> <53rmgp$60i@news.enter.net>
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>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>  	"Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism".
>  
>>  	If this means complaining about the Jews killing children,
>>  bombing civilians in Lebanon and all the rest of the ugly Zionist
>>  history, then, so be it.
>
>	That's a lie and you know it.  Your anti-Semitism has been proved time 
>and time again by your bigotry and your lies.
>
>	--YFE

	What's a "lie"?

(This one?) > "Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism".
 
 (And this one can't be determined to be a lie, unless you are saying
the Jews don't kill children or don't bomb civilians.)

 	If this means complaining about the Jews killing children,
  bombing civilians in Lebanon and all the rest of the ugly Zionist
  history, then, so be it.




From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct 16 07:16:00 PDT 1996
Article: 74781 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anything "Zionist & Proud"/Holocaust
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:10:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>
>				UWM.edu/Studentorg/tagar
>
>   "Tagar at UW - Milwaukee presents the Israel Activist Center"
>
>	Across a black background a BLAZING lightning strike from a
>computer screen on the left with a Star of David, through a menorah in
>the center and on to a satellite photo of Earth on the right side.

	Maybe someone with 'connections' could get a reply from this site
as to what the BLAZING lightning strike from Star of David to menorah
to the Earth means.
>
>	"The goals of Tagar & Masada at UWM, are to promote and represent
>the policies of the government of Israel and to defend Jewish
>interests."
>
>	"Tagar & Masada educate the public about Zionism and the
>Holocaust ..."
>
>	



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct 16 07:16:00 PDT 1996
Article: 74782 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:11:25 GMT
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>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>	Someone give Moran a clue:
>
>>  >Tom, calm down--you were duped by Matt Giwer.  There is no "Moshe".  
>
>	So Moran demonstrated his bigotry:
>
>  
>>  	You could be right. But look at it this way, his impersonation
>>  was aweful realistic.
>
>	Only to a bigot like you.  It is humorous that the only two people taken 
>in by Giwer's hoax were two people who have announced how good they are 
>at evaluating the credibility of others.
>
>	--YFE
 	It was and is realistic, the thinking that is.

Of course it was Moran that revealed you to be lying about "Rachelle"
and it was Moran that forced you to claim a "retraction" (Back track)
to your blurt that you lost 16,000 relatives in the Holocaust. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct 16 07:16:01 PDT 1996
Article: 74783 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why So Many Crematoriums?
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:12:13 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>This newsgroup opened in 1992. That's 5 years.
>
>So far, no "revisionist" gave any rational explanation
>as to why a "work camp" (Auschwitz-Birknau) needed five
>huge crematoriums, with 52 cremation furnaces.

	Cremas IV and V, or whatever the buildings identified as such
are, could have had, and may have had multiple furnaces. They have
stacks sticking right out of the main building. There is also a
photograph of row of furnaces in the Holocaust sales package. Whether
or not these were for cremation is another story.

	But the buildings identified as Cremas II and III have the smoke
stacks sticking out of small ell annexes in the center, which would
make it necessary to build a considerable flue system from within the
building where the banks of ovens are said to have been located. No
such system has ever been shown. Even though the evidence should still
be there, no attempts have been made to varify anything.

	No one knowedgable of the real situation would deny there weren't
crematorium ovens. Whether or not there were 52 of them is another
story.	


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct 16 07:16:02 PDT 1996
Article: 74786 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Anti-Semitism"? Then, so be it.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:13:42 GMT
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>	What's a "lie"?
>>(This one?) > "Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism".
>
>	This is a lie because it claims that those who oppose policies of
>the Israeli state are prejudiced against Jews.
>
>	In your case, Moran, you are an anti-Semite who *pretends* to be an
>anti-Zionist.
> 
>> (And this one can't be determined to be a lie, unless you are saying
>>the Jews don't kill children or don't bomb civilians.)
> ^^^^^^^^
>
>	Why do you speak of Jews as a homogenous group?
>
>> 	If this means complaining about the Jews killing children,
>                                        ^^^^^^^^
>	Why do you speak of Jews as a homogenous group?
>
>>  bombing civilians in Lebanon and all the rest of the ugly Zionist
>>  history, then, so be it.
>
>	You are using acts of the Israeli military to justify your hatred of
>all Jews. Yes, there are people who condemn these acts of the Israeli
>military and are not anti-Semites. You, however, are *using* the Lebanese and
>Palestinians, to borrow a term from Matt Giwer.
>
>	Derek
>

	As a close follower of the Zionist situation I have yet to see a
honest condemnation of anything Zionist. Anytime someone feigns to
take issue, there is more written between the lines to have us think
it was the other guys fault. 

	Maybe you can show a righteous record of all this 'division'.

	As to any reference to "Jews" and Zionism, Zionism is Jewish. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct 16 07:16:02 PDT 1996
Article: 74790 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Happy "Columbus Was a Jew" Day
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:28:26 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>Charles R.L. Power wrote:
>> 
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>> 
>> >       Thats right. This is one of the ethnocentric claims by Jews.
>> >Without one single piece of evidence, with nothing more than super
>> >racist egos, the Jews proclaim "Columbus was a Jew".
>> 
>> Simon Wiesenthal argued the case in one book. I don't know that many
>> Jews take him seriously. If you don't think he had any basis, read the
>> book first. Oh, I forgot, reading a book is beyond the ability of Moron.
>
>The story is that Columbus' parents (or was it grandparents?) were
>forcibly converted from Judasim to Catholicism during the Spanish
>Inquisition.  

"The story is ...".  A story, not "the" story. Who's story is it?




From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct 16 07:16:03 PDT 1996
Article: 74791 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Dachau - to remind them of the truth
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:32:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>  
>>  	Photos? None. Even though the place was swarming with Allied
>>  cameramen. "Jews"? How would he know the bones were Jews?
>
>	No photos of Dachau?  You must be joking.  There are even color 
>movies of the liberation of Dachau made by George Stevens and William Mellor 
>who were part of an army photographic team.
>
>	--YFE

	The photos of the piles of "Jewish bones". 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Oct 16 07:16:04 PDT 1996
Article: 74793 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I'm lost here...
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:44:36 GMT
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	Mr.VanAlstine's closing statement.

>The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
>blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
>The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
>intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
>taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
>of this, please refer to:
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom
>
>But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
>beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
>Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
>evidence of this please see:
>
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-beliefs.960704
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/intellectual-depravity
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq
>
>Mark



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct 17 00:04:17 PDT 1996
Article: 75041 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: England to Enforce the Holocaust Lie
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 14:00:28 GMT
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>	
>	If it can't be proven, ban the question.
>	Storm the libraries. Storm the book stores.
>     Burn the books.
>
>	England: Oct. 1996
>
>LABOUR PLEDGE TO LEGISLATE AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL


>The announcement, made at the party's Blackpool conference, was the 
>culmination of a lengthy campaign by Jewish groups including the Board
>of Deputies, the Holocaust Education Trust and Poale Zion.

>Labour Friends of Israel fringe meeting: "For two years, there has 
>been a debate over whether to make it a crime to deny the Holocaust. 
>Now Jack Straw has made it clear that we will.

	A "lengthy" campaign. "For two years, ...".

What has happened here is the submission to the Jewish tenacity to
have their way by way of 'harrassment' and the child mind process of
"chutzpah".


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct 17 07:26:07 PDT 1996
Article: 75143 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why So Many Crematoriums?
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:18:49 GMT
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>>This newsgroup opened in 1992. That's 5 years.
>
>>>So far, no "revisionist" gave any rational explanation
>>>as to why a "work camp" (Auschwitz-Birknau) needed five
>>>huge crematoriums, with 52 cremation furnaces.
>
>>	Cremas IV and V, or whatever the buildings identified as such
>>are, could have had, and may have had multiple furnaces. They have
>>stacks sticking right out of the main building. There is also a
>>photograph of row of furnaces in the Holocaust sales package. Whether
>>or not these were for cremation is another story.
>
>>	But the buildings identified as Cremas II and III have the smoke
>>stacks sticking out of small ell annexes in the center, which would
>>make it necessary to build a considerable flue system from within the
>>building where the banks of ovens are said to have been located. No
>>such system has ever been shown. Even though the evidence should still
>>be there, no attempts have been made to varify anything.

	Thanks for the title. Sounds like one that should be good for the
picking. Didn't this writer have another book, "Der SS Staat",
Berlin,  1974, 157, that claims 3,500,000 to 4,500,000 killed at
Auschwitz?

>A very detailed and accurate architectural floor plan prepared by the
>Central Construction Administration of the Waffen SS, dated January
>23-28, 1942, may be seen on pages 244-245 of Eugen Kogon, _Nazi Mass
>Murder: A Documentary History of the Use of Poison Gas_ (New Haven;
>London: Yale University Press, 1993). The "considerable flue system"
>is prominently visible in this plan.

	This should be interesting. You wouldn't know why they haven't
come up with any plans for the other camps that are said to have had
more fatalities than Auschwitz, would you? I have seen a ventilation
flue system in some of Pressas work, but these seem to have been
theorectical renditions made for his book. Considering the title of
Kogan's latest book we could get the idea the flue system presented in
that is in reference to ventilating gas. Maybe Mr.VanAlstine, seeming
to have the book on hand, could give the full statement. Was it part
of a caption to this "considerable flue system"? Perhaps if
Mr.VanAlstine could just give the full paragraph, then we could see if
it's worth to chase down the book.

	I realize Mr.VanAlstine is likely to bark something about going
out and doing your own research, but then I may not be the only one
out here. If he's got something good for the truth of the Holocaust
story, he should offer it up instead of asking many to go look for it,
which it could be unavailable to some.
	
>Since I have posted this information in response to previous posts by
>you, your feigned ignorance on this point is unconvincing.
>
>>	No one knowedgable of the real situation would deny there weren't
>>crematorium ovens. Whether or not there were 52 of them is another
>>story.	
>
>The purchase orders and delivery letters exist for 52 crematory
>furnaces at Auschwitz. Now explain why Auschwitz had over five times
>the crematory capacity of a camp like Dachau instead of pretending you
>don't know how many crematories there were.

	Your right here. I don't know how many crematoriums there were at
Birkenau. The story says there were 52. Revisionists could agree. I
don't know. 
	The problem with any of them being used for cremating the
exterminated doesn't fit in with the other camps, said to have killed
more than Auschwitz. Way less ovens for Majdanek and non-existant for
Treblinka. Why not just burn them in pits? This all seemed to work
pretty good, going by Holocaust facts. The idea is ridiculous to think
the Germans would have built whatever crematoriums they did for
disposing of the remains of planned millions only to be left with the
necessity to burn thousands a day in pits anyway.

	If it could be shown there were 52 ovens intended for cremations,
we have to consider the German camp records recently released by the
Russians that shows 62,000 deaths. The number of bodies each of these
ovens would have had to cremate is 1230 each. Of course a certain
number of these deaths occured before the cremas were all built. There
was the typhus out break which must have overwhelmed the situation for
a while and the Germans were having a struggle with it in many camps,
so they could have very well built them for this contigency. The camp
is also said to have had a standing population of 100,000 people,
which was in way less than ideal conditions and a certain number would
have died. Since urns were found, we have to wonder who they may have
been for. Was it for the exterminated? We can accept a no. Was it for
the natural deaths? We can accept no. Was it for dead Germans? Could
the cremas have been for the this purpose. What did the Germans do
with their dead? And on top of all this, there are many uses for
furnaces, ovens, fire chambers, whatever we call them. 

	And in the end the crema rates as compared to today's
capabilities would have to be more or less the same, which would make
any ovens built, even 52 of them, not nearly sufficient to handle any
significant number that the Germans would have planned on, which the
Holocaust story has them building four gas chambers, capable of
exterminating 1000 each per load.

	The facilities design would not be able to keep up with their own
production.
	

	Why don't all those who seem to be so reliant on the Holocaust
story, including the Auschwitz Museum, dismantle the remains of the
collapsed Crema II? Lift each piece out with prescribed archeological
procedures and reconstruct the scene of the crime.

	With all this we could see the porous columns, the ventilation
system, the special furnace ducting system, the doorways, the stairs,
any little side rooms and what appears at the time.

	In the mean time I'll search down this book by Kogon written in
1993. I would say his book of 1973 that holds to the 3.5 million to
4.5 million should have some accounts considerably different from the
more recent books written in line with the lower 1 to 1.5 million.


>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct 17 07:26:08 PDT 1996
Article: 75144 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Dealing with Holocaust Denial
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:18:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 26
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>On 15 Oct 1996 18:30:37 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
>
>>	The danger with locking-up Holocaust-deniers is that it would create
>>a martyr, something various movements, not neccessarily fascist, have realised.
>>
>>	It's much better to reveal the holes in the denier's argument, as well
>>as reveal the roots of the denier movement.
>>
>>	I mean, it's not as if the deniers have any real evidence for their
>>thesis - they lose credibility when their "research" is revealed for what it
>>is.
>
>I've long said that more often than not, the process of debate is not
>exclusively about convincing people otherwise (although it does
>happen), but more about documenting the process of exposing shoddy
>lies for the sake of others.

	Reference to "lies" without citing them or showing them to be
lies is nothing. 


____________________________________________________________________________
>syegul@ix.netcom.com                                       EFNet IRC: GinRei
>http://www.io.com/~syegul                          another worldly device...
>____________________________________________________________________________



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Oct 17 07:26:09 PDT 1996
Article: 75145 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Dealing with Holocaust Denial
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:17:42 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>	The danger with locking-up Holocaust-deniers is that it would create
>a martyr, something various movements, not neccessarily fascist, have realised.

	This person thinks the only problem with "locking-up
Holocaust-deniers" is that it would create martyrs. 
	Otherwise, he has nothing against it.

>	It's much better to reveal the holes in the denier's argument, as well
>as reveal the roots of the denier movement.
	
>	I mean, it's not as if the deniers have any real evidence for their
>thesis - they lose credibility when their "research" is revealed for what it
>is.

	This is how this person goes about showing the facts and denying
the deniers.

One of this person's previous posts:

"Li'l Tommy in the sandpit"
     
	By a Derek Bell,
     ================

     "Hi, Li'l Tommy, whatcha do'in?"

	"Hi, I'm making a sand-castles."

	"Don't you mean a sand-castle?"

	"No, it's a sand-castles!"

	"You're an idiot!"

	"No, I'm an idiots!!"

	"You mustn't have done your homework properly, it's _idiot_."

	"I did my homeworks properly, but I was told in the classrooms by
my teachers that it was wrong."

	"What did your teachers say?"

	"My teachers told me to do it again, but I won't!"

	"How many teachers did you say you had?"

	"I have only one teachers. Now let me get on with my
sand-castles,
I want to finish it before dinners!"

	Derek

Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW:
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
	"Donuts - is there _anything_ they can't do?" - Homer Simpson
=======================================================================

	

>	Derek
>
>
>
>-- 
>Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
>	"Donuts - is there _anything_ they can't do?" - Homer Simpson



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 00:15:45 PDT 1996
Article: 75218 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Happy "Columbus Was a Jew" Day
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:30:52 GMT
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>
>
>> >The story is that Columbus' parents (or was it grandparents?) were
>> >forcibly converted from Judasim to Catholicism during the Spanish
>> >Inquisition.  
>
>
>  Strange considering that Columbus was ITALIAN.  Of course jews being
>  as smart as they are would know this.  Thus, it becomes apparent, the
>  story must have been concocted by a revisionist and falsely attributed
>  to the jews.  Will they ever learn that this type of thing won't work?
>  Sad to say, I don't think so. If they could learn from their flubs then
>  they'd be smart enough to know that revisionism is garbage. 

	You may notice in this thread where an anti-denier cites Simon
Wiesenthal as the originator of the tale.

> Thus it 
>  goes "ad infinitum" and the rest of us must remain ever vigilant that
>  their line doesn't become accepted fact.

	How do you plan on going about revisionism not becoming accepted
fact? 

>  Konrad Vandegaer 
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 09:25:35 PDT 1996
Article: 75295 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Happy "Columbus Was a Jew" Day
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:09:21 GMT
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>	Thats right. This is one of the ethnocentric claims by Jews. 
>>Without one single piece of evidence, with nothing more than super
>>racist egos, the Jews proclaim "Columbus was a Jew".
>
>Simon Wiesenthal argued the case in one book. I don't know that many
>Jews take him seriously. If you don't think he had any basis, read the
>book first. Oh, I forgot, reading a book is beyond the ability of Moron.

	I've seen it by others. I've heard it from Jews themselves. The
L.A.Times did a half page on it. The only piece of evidence cited was
that someone thought he "looked Jewish".

     Personally I wonder how the American Indian views the Columbus
Day thing. The one thing we have is, eons of nature before Columbus,
and pollution, extinction and chaos after.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 09:25:36 PDT 1996
Article: 75348 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anything "Zionist & Proud"/Holocaust
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:41:04 GMT
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>
>				UWM.edu/Studentorg/tagar
>
>   "Tagar at UW - Milwaukee presents the Israel Activist Center"
>	"The goals of Tagar & Masada at UWM, are to promote and represent
>the policies of the government of Israel and to defend Jewish
>interests."

	That would mean whatever policies.




From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 09:25:37 PDT 1996
Article: 75352 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:05:15 GMT
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		Behold the lie, tell your friends.

	For those who are new to investigating whether or not the
Holocaust story is true I present you with this simple introductory
sequence of material. None of it is revisionist, meaning none of it
comes from those who deny the greater part of this Holocaust story. It
is all based on what the pushers of the story give themselves.

	A few years ago a major revision to the story was announced.
After much crying and charging of "anti-Semitism" and "neo-Nazism"
those who are so eager and dedicated to perpetuating the story have
had to accept it. The gigantic revision was the reduction of the
previously claimed number of 4,000,000 people said to have been
exterminated at Auschwitz down to the currently accepted claim of
1,000,000, a 3,000,000 (75%) reduction. Among those dedicated to
keeping the story at a high saturation in our every day lives is the
Simon Wiesenthal Center and here I present their words on the matter
so you can be confortable in accepting that there is a revision
process taking place to which even they have had to swallow, if not a
bit begrudgingly and as we will see, with a certain lack of grace,
style and respect for those the statement is aimed at. 

	As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

                            --------
	
       "For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
Shouldn't the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
are much lower than previously thought?"

*("well over" meaning 4 million)

	The center then goes into a paragraph about how it was an
"invention" of the communist government of Poland and the U.S.S.R.,
"to blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering", that they "purposely
overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at Auschwitz-Birkenau
by many times" and in order to "disguise the subterfuge" ... "the
figures for Jewish losses were inflated by nearly double, so that
their losses would still be larger than those of non-Jewish victims".
       
        Instead of trying to figure this out at this time we can just
go on to the motive behind this rather confusing logic.

	"The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the Holocaust
has always been in line with the lower Auschwitz figures."

                             ---------

	Now recalling the Wiesenthal Center's claim that the overall
6,000,000 number of Jews never was based on a higher figure at
Auschwitz and thus is still 6,000,000, after the revision of 4,000,000
down to 1,000,000, we can review the contradictory listing below to
see if they are telling the truth or are in fact committing a
blasphemy against the truth and are insulting the reader.
	
  
   Yehuda Bauer's _A History of the Holocaust_ (c. 1982) lists the
   Auschwitz death toll as between 1.5 and 3.5 million Jews
	
   Poliakov's _Harvest of Hate_ (c. 1956) lists the total Auschwitz 
   dead at about 2,300,000.
 
   "Auschwitz" _The World Book Encyclopedia_.  Chicago: World Book,
   1980.  2,500,000

   Billig, Joseph.  _Les camps de concentration dans l'economie du
   Reich hitlerien_.  Paris: Presses universitaires de France, 1973.
   pp 101-102. 2,000,000

   Encyclopedia Judaica, Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1974.  p
   855.  1,000,000 to 2,500,000

   Friedman, Filip.  _This Was Oswiecim: The Story of a Murder Camp_.
   Translated from the Yiddish original by Joseph Leftwich.  London:
   The United Jewish Relief Appeal, 1946, 14. 4,000,000 to 5,000,000

   Kamenetksy, Ihor.  _Secret Nazi Plans for Eastern Europe_.  New
   Haven: College and University Press, 1961.  p174   2,500,000

   Kogon, Eugene. _Der SS Staat_.  Berlin,  1974, 157.  3,500,000 to

   4,500,000
   
   Wellers, Georges.  "Essai de determination du nombre de morts au
   camp d'Auschwitz" _Le Monde Juif_, Oct-Dec 1 1983, 127-59, 
   1,600,000
   
   Brestrafung der Verbrecher von Auschwitz, in _Auschwitz:
   Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des Vernichtungslagers_.  Reinbek bei
   Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 211.  2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Czech, D.  "Konzentrationslager Auschwitz: Abriss der Geschichte,"
   in _Auschwitz: Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des
   Konzentrationslagers_.  Reinbek bei Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 42.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Dunin-Wasowicz, Krzysztof.  _Resistance in the Nazi concentration
   camps, 1933-1945_.  Warsaw: PWN-Polish Scientific Publishers, 1982,
   44. 	2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Madajczyk, Czeslaw.  _Polityka III Rzeszy w okupowanej Polsce;
   okupacja Polski, 1939-1945_.  Warsaw: Panstwowe Wydawn Naukowe,
   1970, 293-94.  2,800,000 to 4,000,000

   _Obozy hitlerowskie na ziemiach polskich 1939-1945: informator
   encyklopedyczny_.  Warsaw: Panst.  Wydaw.  Naukowe DSP, 1979, 369.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Nora Levin's "The Holocaust",  2,000,000 to 2,300,000
  
   Rabbi Dr. Moshe Weiss, The Jewish Press Friday April 5, 1991
   Yom HaShoah - Holocaust Remembrance. 3,000,000

   
                             -------

	So, even though the Simon Wiesenthal Center claims the
6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "has always been in line with
the lower figures" it is obvious that there is some recorded evidence
to show this statement to be down right false, since they clearly cite
anywhere from 2,000,000 to 3,500,000 Jews killed at Auschwitz, which
would make the 6,000,000 figure considerably lower if we used those
numbers instead of the newer currently accepted number of 1,000,000
Jews.

	This poster has over the years witnessed many times in our
daily press the figure of 4,000,000 people said to have been put to
death at Auschwitz, 3,000,000 being Jewish. 3,000,000 Jews killed at
Auschwitz is the common prevalant 'street number' held in the minds of
those who have had any experience on the subject. I would invite
anyone to do their own poll by asking friends or acquaintances what
number they have in their heads as to the number of people said to
have been put to death at Auschwitz and how many they think were Jews,
to see how wide spread the figures are.
	
	Since the Simon Wiesenthal Center is the foremost organization
involved with saturating the minds of the people with the Holocaust
story and the main sponsor of Holocaust museums we must assume they
are knowledgable of the material that has been put forth and thus are
committing a lie. 
	In lieu of the evidence we should ask: If the Simon Wiesenthal
Center claims the 6,000,000 number was never contingent on the
pre-revised number why didn't they make an attempt at setting the
record straight? 				    
	It cannot be shown that the Holocaust perpetuators were the
initiating force behind this huge revision and others, but in fact
struggled energetically to keep it from happening. It could also be
suggested that if it was not for revisionist energy the Holocaust
beneficiaries would have let the old figures stay as they were.

       	     Behold the Lie - Ask Your Friends

	How many people do you think were killed at Auschwitz?
	How many do you think were Jewish?

	The current figure is now given as 1,000,000, 900,000, 600,000
or 300,000 - take your pick. You will hear 3,000,000. Then wonder to
yourself how Simon Wiesenthal and his company of Holocaust
beneficiaries can say the 6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "was
always in line" with the revised figures which came 45 years later.
	
	WARNING: Even though this gigantic modification to the story
has taken place and is currently accepted by the world, along with a
number of other major revisions, Holocaust revisionists still chipping
away at the credibility of the remaining story are still dubbed
"anti-Semites" and "neo-Nazis".
	
	
		

















quatchen


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 09:25:37 PDT 1996
Article: 75353 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The twelve year grace period
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:09:38 GMT
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              The Twelve Year Grace Period
             ==============================
		In with the new books, away with the old.

	              Random House Dictionary,
 "grace" - "6. favor shown in granting a delay or temporary immunity".

========================================================================
		
	According to some accounts, the reason the previous numbers of
those said to have been exterminated at Auschwitz was 3 million higher
than the current 1 million is because the Soviets mis-calculated the
numbers of people that could be cremated in the ovens.

	How the Soviets went about this ciphering that resulted in a 300
percent over estimate is not detailed in Holocaust accounts.

	Another account of why the old number was so far off is because
of the intentional conniving on the part of the Poles and Soviets to
inflate Polish casualties so as to deflate Jewish causalities, or
something like that. (The full ride down the bumpy dirt road can be
found on the Simon Wiesenthal web page.)

	If we should accept either excuse, mis-calculation or intentional
lie, we are led to wonder about other things.

	First we would have to recognize that these are the official
Holocaust accounts and that they are the only ways they came up with
the 4 million number, in lieu of anything else.

	There are two other factors that played a role in Auschwitz
numerology. 

	One is by way of "eyewitness" accounts and the other is pre end
of war rumors that were going around with some of them being reported
in major medias.

	The eye witness accounts given immediately at the time of the
liberation of the camps were by a couple of Jewish inmates. The most
cited eyewitness authority for the numbers came from Rudolph Ho'ss
former Auschwitz camp commandant and still a star witness for the
Holocaust story who said there were up to 3 million people killed at
the camp. We have to recognize that since the current number is 2
million less than what the star Holocaust witness said, then either
the current number is wrong or the star witness was wrong, or lying.

	The other pre end of war accounts, which we may consider to be
the seed rumors that set the atmosphere for the subsequent gross
exaggerations, can be traced to those originating and spread from
Jewish organizations. 
	All kinds of numbers and methods were alleged, none of which,
understandably, is presented by the current Holocaust promotional
network at this time. We can recognize the Holocaust promotional
network not using these sources as their admission that their rumors
were not truths and would only tend to expose the absolute origin from
which the gross exaggerations emanated.

	So in a pure research sequence we have to recognize there are the
two basic claims as to why the number was 4 million in the first
place. The incredibly wayward Soviet mathematics as put forth by say,
Nizkor, "The 4 Million Variant" and their source for that, or the
intentional juggling by the Soviets and Poles as claimed by the Simon
Wiesenthal Center.

	Since either one of these is the basic statement on the old
Auschwitz number, we have to recognize there was nothing else, say as
an actual body count, records or forensic investigations from which to
deduce any numbers. 

	All this would suggest that whatever numbers they had then, and
were submitted to Nuremberg or any other trials, were founded on real
shaky grounds, but nevertheless offered as evidence to hang men. 

	Not until around 1980 did the numbers come to be what they
currently are. The new numbers are founded on the "interpretations" of
deportation records and rail manifests with the specific criteria
that no eyewitness accounts, commission reports or confessions by
Germans were to be trusted or used in the new figuring. Also
explicitly cited are any court records, which would include
Nuremberg's, which shows that they are recognized as lies.

	Is there anything 'funny' about this 'new' number, as it is
obvious there was with the old one? Well this would involve the
investigation of the records used and the consideration of any
interpreting logic. Will all this ever become available to researchers
who may have suspicions? We can only wait and see.

	The one thing we can conclude as to any shenanigans is that the
'new' numbers are not all that new. They are said to have been arrived
at, starting in 1980 and completed in 1986, showing that the
suspicions for the old numbers was recognized in 1980. Not until the
last three years or so did any formal announcement of the current
revised number take place, leaving a gap of about 12 years between the
time of arriving at the current number and the official announcement.
During this time the sign outside of the Auschwitz camp citing
4,000,000 people were exterminated was allowed to remain at 4,000,000.
Not only this, but the old number of 4 million was allowed to be cited
hundreds, if not thousands of times in the world's medias during this
12 year span without any parties knowledgable to the revision coming
forth to correct the rampant use of the old number.
	 
	So who would have known about the revisions?

	An easy resource to check is almost any public library. Here we
will find in the catalogs numerous books on the Holocaust, most of
which were written from 1980 on. In fact, it is very hard to find any
books on the Holocaust written before that time. Either we assume
there were no books on the Holocaust written before 1980 or that there
were and they have found their way off the shelves.

	We would have to consider the likely hood that any books written
before the massive revision to the Auschwitz numbers would have
accounts of numbers with the old 4,000,000 number as a part of the
whole accounting. Regardless of whether or not any of the previous
books are available, numerous documentation is available, as to
sources, that allege that a significant number of the old, now deleted
number of 4,000,000 were Jewish. In spite of what the Simon Wiesenthal
Center claims, that the number of 6,000,000 Jews said to have been
killed during the war was never contingent on the old 4,000,000, the
documented facts, not readily available now in the libraries,
challenges this severely. The numerous older accounts can have it that
>from  2,000,000 to 4,000,000 of the victims at Auschwitz were Jews.
	Perhaps the only book that was written before 1980 that held to a
smaller number was one by Reitlinger, who cited a number close to the
current number. This book is referred to by the defenders of all
things true Holocaust in attempts at drawing attention away from the
20 or 30 other sources that cite significantly higher figures.  
	Six million is the standing figure as to the number of Jews said
to have been exterminated during WW II. This has pretty much been the
figure all along. We would have to recognize that any books written on
the Holocaust before or after 1980 must strive to give the full
account including other camps and any exterminations said to have
taken place in the 'field' so that the culminating figure is
6,000,000. If books are written that claim, say, 2,300,000, 3,000,000
or 3,500,000 Jews were killed at Auschwitz, then any numbers given for
other places must be jostled around so that when it is all put
together the figure ends up at 6,000,000. Thus any books written using
the 1,000,000 figure must do their ciphering considering that, which
would throw them into serious conflict with the older accounts.

	So, in 1980 along comes the problem of the massive revision to
the Holocaust root number of Auschwitz, from 4,000,000 down to
1,000,000. Then, also starting around 1980 we have a whole onslaught
of new books that came out with most of them giving accounts that
agree with the new number. The new number that wasn't officially
released until 1993. 

	Is it a fantastic coincidence that the new Auschwitz numbers were
arrived at around 1980 and a whole slue of new books appeared around
the same time? 

	Was it just an oversight that kept the old number of 4,000,000 up
on the sign at Auschwitz and the new current number from being
released at that time it was arrived at?

	And who would have been privy to knowing about all this revision
at the time?

	Putting all the pieces together, it appears a righteous
accommodating grace period was given to the Jews so they would have
time to reorganize Holocaust accounts that would be more in line with
the new figures, and that is what is on the library shelves at this
time.

	A pathetically corrupt state of affairs.


========================================================================
	No wonder the Jews exert so much energy in trying to snuff out
open debate on the truth or falsity of the Holocaust, opting instead
to condemn the whole thing as an act of "hate", "racism", "neo-Nazism"
and/or "anti-Semitism". 
========================================================================


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 09:25:38 PDT 1996
Article: 75354 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: England to Enforce the Holocaust Lie
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:41:48 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:75354 alt.conspiracy:100700

>	
>	If it can't be proven, ban the question.
>	Storm the libraries. Storm the book stores.
>     Burn the books.
>
>	England: Oct. 1996
>
>LABOUR PLEDGE TO LEGISLATE AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL
>
>A Labour government will act to make Holocaust denial a criminal 
>offence, Opposition leaders pledged this week.

	Any idiot can go around bellowing to have reviewing historical
accounts made a crime. And any idiot can give into it. Yet it takes a
real person to stand up to the challenge and be willing to argue the
case.

	
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 09:25:39 PDT 1996
Article: 75367 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Socrates and Plato for Revisionist Rights
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:13:40 GMT
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MAN SENTENCED TO DEATH FOR QUESTIONING ORTHODOXY

"The effect of these investigations of mine, gentlemen,, has been 
to arouse against me a great deal of hostility, and hostility of a 
particularly bitter and persistent kind... There is another reason 
for my being unpopular.  A number of young men with wealthy fathers 
and plenty of leisure have deliberately attached themselves to me 
because they enjoy hearing other people cross-questioned.  These 
often take me as their model, and go on to try to question other 
persons; whereupon, I suppose, they find an unlimited number of 
people who think that they know something, but really know little 
or nothing.  Consequently their victims become annoyed, not with 
themselves but with me; and they complain that there is a 
pestilential busybody called Socrates who fills young people's 
heads with wrong ideas.  If you ask them what he does, and what he 
teaches that has this effect, they have no answer, not knowing what 
to say; but as they do not want to admit their confusion, they fall 
back on the stock charges against any philosopher: that he teaches 
his pupils about things in the heavens and below the earth, and to 
disbelieve in gods, and to make the weaker argument defeat the 
stronger.  They would be very loath, I fancy, to admit the truth: 
which is that they are being convicted of pretending to knowledge 
when they are entirely ignorant.  So, jealous, I suppose, for their 
own reputation, and also energetic and numerically strong, and 
provided with a plausible and carefully worked out case against me, 
these people have been dinning into your ears for a long time past 
their violent denunciations of myself."

Socrates as recorded by Plato in Apology 22E-24A

	Socrates had the options of denying what he had put forth, take
banishment or drink poisonous Hemlock. He defended what he had said
and took the drink. 

	Socrates died for all those, to this day, in a struggle against
those who would have us accept their thought imposed by force and
intrigue.  

	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 09:25:39 PDT 1996
Article: 75372 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust final exam
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:10:29 GMT
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Question:
	The reason the Jews are so obsessed with bellowing the Holocaust
story is:

	A: So that the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice?

	B: To instill guilt, justify Zionist policies and to extort
money. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 09:25:40 PDT 1996
Article: 75382 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: ADL "friends of free speech" excepting ...
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:13:22 GMT
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	Letter to the Editor,  L.A. Times,  Nov. 21, 1991

                   "Censorship and Computers"

	"The Anti-Defamation League questioned Prodigy Consumer Network's
interpretation and application of it't self imposed guidelines for
determining the appropriateness of messages posted on it't bulletin
boards.  I did not, contrary to Dershowitz's assertion, demand that
Prodigy '"censor"' anti-Semitic messages. The ADL, counts itself among
the staunchest friends of free speech. The questions raised by
Dershowitz as to whether computer services should impose such
guidelines is not the point. In light of the fact that Prodigy has
guidelines, we brought to their attention complaints we received about
certain messages that appeared on Prodigy bulletin boards, including
messages claiming the Holocaust is a hoax. Prodigy concluded these
messages were not offensive. We disagree. Even Dershowitz disagrees.
	Dershowitz is wrong to claim that ADL's actions '"aggravated the
problem."'  As the '"watchdog of the Jewish Community against
anti-Semitism"', we believe it is better to expose institutional
racism and anti-Semitism, if it exist, than to pretend it does not.
ADL did not '"mainstream"' the bigotry, it exposed it.
	The conflict is between freedom of speech and the right not to be
offended. Constitutional law professor Laurence Tribe, of Harvard, has
stated his belief that, with regard to computerized communications,
the issues involved are not adequately addressed by our legal system.
However, since Prodigy has promulgated guidelines and taken the
responsibility for drawing lines and making judgement calls as to what
is and is not offensive, we and their subscribers have every right to
question their decisions without being labeled promoters of
censorship."
                                                 TZIVIA SHWARTZ
                                   Western States Associate Counsel
                              Anti- Defamation League, Los Angeles

	What a crock of crap. '...among the staunchest friends of freedom
of speech", "...complaints they received..."  The only example they
put in here as to these complaints concerns Holocaust denial. Their
own interests. They are in denial by stating they did not "demand"
Prodigy '"censor"' '"anti-Semitic"' messages and then raising it as a
legitimate topic for Constitutional revisionism. 
	"The conflict is between freedom of speech and the right not to
be offended."  All those Palestinians, Arabs of other nations, Muslims
and Catholics have the right not to be offended, yet this ADL has
leveled all sorts of vile accusations against them and they don't go
crying for special interpretations and application of our free speech
clause. In true ADL form, they cite a "Constitutional law professor
... from Harvard" as a selling point for their view. One man? Some
weak minded academite. "Even Dershowitz disagrees"? Dershowitz plays
himself as a champion of freedom of speech so he can play that even
Holocaust denial is objectionable enough to warrant censorship. This
is the good cop bad cop practice that so often accompanies the
writings of this faction. I would suggest a full vote before the whole
United States as to what should or should not be censored on the
Internet. How's that for democratic procedure? Why leave it up to weak
people in position to submit to the standards of those who sleaze
around to have our Constitution be specialized for their particular
cause.  
	The ADL and associated organizations have their concept of what
they think is offensive, and get their complaints in wherever they
want, but in the end they're the ones who have the big history of
offensiveness against whole nations, whole peoples, whole religions,
and they express it with regularity right in our faces, right in our
public medias, galore.
	Right here in their own directive, REVISIONISM IS ANTI-SEMITISM.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 09:25:41 PDT 1996
Article: 75383 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CENSORSHIP - SIMON SAYS AGAIN
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:13:09 GMT
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                              [repost]
	                    
                             New York Times
                             Jan. 10, 1996

                      "Jewish Rights Group Urges Ban
                     Of All Hate Messages on Internet"

	"Citing '"the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups
on the Internet,"' a leading Jewish human rights group yesterday began
sending letters to hundreds of Internet access providers and
universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that '"promote
racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence"'.
	The letter from the Simon Weisenthal Center, a 425,000-member
organization ... is the latest in a growing effort by legislators and
private interest groups to censor offensive material ... which now
connects millions of computer users worldwide.
	'"Internet providers have a First Amendment right and a moral
obligation not to provide these groups a platform for their
destructive propaganda,"' Rabbi Abraham Cooper, .... wrote in the
letter ...
	Rabbi Cooper said the target of yesterday's call for '"ethical
rules of engagement on the Internet"' was not the many discussion
forums where individuals debate such topics as whether the Holocaust
actually occurred, but rather the Internets's World Wide Web, a
service that allows users to publish documents -- including text,
pictures  ... read by millions of people.
	Dozens of groups, from white supremist to anarchists, have
published documents on the Web about their points of view. Some are
revisionists histories and some are racist tracts denigrating blacks,
Jews ...
	Such hate speech is not illegal under Federal law and is
generally protected by First Amendment ... But efforts are growing to
restrict certain types of information ... Congress is debating ..."

	The article then goes to give us comments from various people who
defend the unrestricted Internet before returning to Rabbi Cooper who
said the '"unprecidented potential and scope of the Internet" gives
people '"incredible power to promote violence, threaten women,
denigrate minorities ..."'
	"He said letters would be sent to about 2000 Internet providers
and university presidents suggesting a voluntary code of ethics.
	The proposed code asks providers to pledge, '"We consider it our
civic duty to refuse or terminate service to any individual or group
to exploit our service to promote an agenda of hate and violence"'.

	A short recap of the of the Jewish "rights group" manifesto is
that the target of their agenda was not the many discussion forums
where individuals debate such topics as revisionism but the
"...groups, from white supremists to anarchists" who have published
"documents on the Web" ...  Some are revisionists histories ..." 
=====================================================================

	As to the Times reporter's stating the Jewish "rights group" is
the "latest" group in "a growing effort by legislators and private
interest groups ..." the Simon Wiesenthal Center is the only one named
exactly. No other group(s) were cited.
	Of course those legislators that are mentioned are the same ones
that will tell you that Zionist policies of shooting little kids is an
act of democracy, and who will muster up 93 Senatorial votes endorsing
Jeruselem as capitol of Israel and other major majority votes to 0,
while they can't agree on anything that would benefit the people of
the U.S.

	Above, again, a Jewish connection that revisionism and "hate" are
in the same category.

	Before any self imposed or legislative imposed restrictions are
made on the Internet, we should reqire that any proposers list exactly
what they see as example candidates for censorship, and be subject to
debate by the general citizens of the U.S. and the world. It can not
be left up to Jewish "rights groups" to set the parameters. Its
already a unwritten law that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic, and few if
any dare question any U.S. policies that even remotely connect to that
area of the world.

	The main problem with any kind of censorship is the precidences
it sets, which history shows can and will be used to expand them to
any level, far removed from the initial precedence.
	We can not allow ourselves to be controlled by fear and tyranny.
The truely intellectual way of dealing with any wacky malevolent
doctrines is to counter them with the pen, not by the methods of the
likes of the Simon Weisenthal Center. Their approach is a sign of
their failure and confidence of intellect to debate a issue and or
their condemnation of the American intellect. An act of contempt.     


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:32:47 PDT 1996
Article: 164494 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:32:49 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:32:50 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:36:49 PDT 1996
Article: 75444 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust final exam
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:58:55 GMT
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Question:
	The reason the Jews are so obsessed with bellowing the Holocaust
story is:

	A: So that the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice?

	B: To instill guilt, justify Zionist policies and to extort
money. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:36:50 PDT 1996
Article: 75447 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a future event
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:48:18 GMT
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>	In this newsgroup in ten years, the holohuggers will be challenging people
>to prove there was ever any claim that anyone was gassed and calling them
>neo-nazi and antisemitic if they continue in that claim.  

	Ain't that a fact.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:36:51 PDT 1996
Article: 75452 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism"
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:12:26 GMT
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	"Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism"? 
	
	Yup. This is one of the Jewish community's many absurd proposals.


	This would mean that objecting to the Zionist policy of shooting
down little kids with bullets for their throwing stones, uprooting
their daddies orchards, barring their daddies access to work, closing
their schools for years, holding them prisoners without due process,
torture, defying U.N. resolutions, breaking "peace" agreements,
rousting whole populations with bombs, blowing up refugee camps and
the myriad of other unaesthetic Zionist policies - ah yes, complaining
about this is an act of anti-Semitism.   


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:36:51 PDT 1996
Article: 75453 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Christians 'take it like a man'
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:14:00 GMT
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	Over the last two years or so there have been a number of
articles in the N.Y. and L.A. Times about Biblical revisionism. There
also has been a couple sizable articles in TIME Magazine, given front
cover attention.
	The articles have been basically reports on conferences and such,
attended by scholars, and the dogmas challenged have ranged from did
Christ do this , or did he do that, was he really the son of god.

	Now if there has been any wailing and snarling of terms like
'anti-Christianism' I don't recall seeing any reports. Nor do I recall
seeing anyone out to have any conferences banned.
 
	Now there's something noticeably different with all this.

	Here we have challenges to the very heart of a global religion
and nary a uproar, but when it comes to challenging the Holocaust
story - "ANTI-SEMITISM - NEO NAZI - BIGOT - RACIST" - and other
naughty accusations. 

	 



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:36:52 PDT 1996
Article: 75454 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Declaration Of Deficiency
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:12:40 GMT
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	They who refuse to debate, oppose debate or stifle debate,
declare they don't have the will, the substance or the guts to meet
the challenge. It is a sign of cowardice.
	It is tacit declaration they know they would lose, that they
don't have faith in their position, that they know deep down inside or
are consciously aware their own position rots. 
	
	This applies to any of those persons and groups that oppose free
open discussion on the Holocaust.

	This applies to any of those persons and groups that oppose free
open discussion on Zionist activity, in the U.S. and the Mideast..
 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:36:53 PDT 1996
Article: 75455 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: $$$$$$ "FLOOD GATE" $$$$$$
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:50:27 GMT
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	"Spielberg gets funds for Holocaust project"

Washington - "Two Jewish senators lent the backing of the U.S.
government to Steven Spielberg's Holocaust documentation project,
presenting the Hollywood director with $1 million federal grant on
Tuesday.
	Spielberg said the funding will allow him to approach Germany,
Austria and other governments for additional grants to create a living
history of the Holocaust through interviews with more than 50,000
survivors.
	'This single gift will open the floodgates to get all the funding
necessary to complete this project,' he said.
	The interviews, as well as family photographs and other
artifacts, will be preserved electronically. He said the information
eventually will be made available to museums and schools 'to teach
teachers to teach tolerance'.
	Sen. Alan Specter, R-Pa., a Senate Appropriations Committee
member who pushed for funding, said too many people discount the
Holocaust -- in which more than six million were exterminated -- as a
hoax. He said the grant will lend credibility to the plight of the
Jews in Nazi-occupied territory during WWII.
	About $40 million has been raised so far, with Spielberg himself
the largest donor. Spielberg projects needing $20 million more.
	Sen. Boxer, D-Calif., said Spielberg contacted her for funding
assistance, and she contacted Specter to get bipartisan support in the
GOP-controlled Congress. Funding was provided in a fiscal 1996
spending bill signed into law in April."
                          =================

	How disgusting.
	
	What was the Senate vote? Ninety nine to zero, one abstaining?
One hundred to zero, none abstaining? Not happening when the Senate
votes on things that should be good for the people of the U.S. or the
world is the common occurence of the Senate to muster 90 - 0, 95 - 0
like votes for Jewish causes.

	The packet was sealed back in April? And we are finding out just
now? Is this a release by the Senate or Spielberg, or is a release of
something someone rooted out recently?

	This precedence will "open the flood gates" to more $$$$$$$$$?
>From  Austria, Germany and "other countries"? We can wait and see what
happens there. We can only assume there are Jewish groups out swarming
all over the globe trying to get the $$$$$$$$$$$.

	They got $40 million already? Spielberg giving 20 million
himself? Those proceeds from "Schindlers List" that people say he got?
It would be interesting to see the details. Where did the other $20
million come from? They're going to need over $60 million altogether? 
I wonder if they didn't try for 10 or 20 million or if it really was
allocated under some other entry?

	The "grant will lend credibility" to the plight of the Jews?

	The most hideous part of the report is, "He said the information
eventually will be made available to museums and schools 'to teach
teachers to teach tolerance'". Of course teaching about the plight of
the Palestinians in the American school system is "anti-Semitic".

	The reality is, by the time this project gets to anything, the
Holocaust story will be so doubted and thus so challenged all the
Holocaust Museums will be boarded up, no more mention on TV, no more
mention anywhere but in circles that will be commenting on its
falsity.

	This, like the Goldhagen book "Ordinary Germans ...", and other
incidents will do more to draw attention to the revisionist side of
the story than it will to reinforce the Holocaust lie.

	Eventually parents will, if they aren't already, forbid their
kids to go on the mandatory Holocaust ride in our school systems. No
one will make a stink about it. Perhaps in the first few incidents,
charges will be leveled against them for being "anti-Semitic",
especially if the school is in an area that has a high Jewish
population. But then some of the incidents will make it into the
papers, and more people will know, and more will complain and resist,
until the school systems will be instructed to make it voluntary. Then
the reality will be taught in the streets and in the homes and in the
mail. Then the Holocaust instructor will be sitting there all alone,
facing an empty classroom. 
	The Holocaust story has to be the ultimate example of how a lie
can exist to such a magnitude that it has. It will have to be taught
to our children so they will know to what extent a lie can exist and
endure and what processes were at play to elevate it and sustain it
and who were the ones behind it. The Holocaust lie will be too big an
example to overlook.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:36:54 PDT 1996
Article: 75456 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CHARGES
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:14:32 GMT
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	What should one make of it if someone makes charges of
anti-Semitism, neo-Nazism and/or racism and can't or refuses to follow
up with an argument for proof?

	
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:36:55 PDT 1996
Article: 75457 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How much of one could the other really eat?
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:01:32 GMT
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>In article <53v6l5$d7e@is05.micron.net>,
>Kurt Stele  wrote:
>>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>
>>>I am not making this up.
>>
>
>>So what?  Is her claim not another good example of how "holocaust"
>>eyewitnesses constantly exaggerate?
>
>    No.  It's a good example of how Holocaust deniers constantly read text
>in unnatural and strained ways looking for any possible "evidence" they
>can use to call the witness a liar.
>
>>I too seriously doubt the story that a dog ate another man "alive" 
>
>    I seriously doubt that the witness meant the words literally.

	When you givbe testimony it should be "literally". did anyone ask
for full clarification? Maybe Stein would have it that when a witness
testifired that they could hear pilots laughing as they flew by was
not speaking "iterally".

>    If you think otherwise, perhaps you should also complain to the
>sportswriters who said that Atlanta annihilated, shellacked, destroyed,
>murdered, etc. St. Louis last night.  After all, the city is still there,
>the players are still alive, and they don't even have a coat of varnish on
>their skin.

	Here goes Stein off to another topic.

>    Clearly the sportswriters were lying and the National League
>Championship Series is a JOOSH HOAX.
>
>    Posted/emailed.
>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:36:55 PDT 1996
Article: 75458 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Bacon, Diogenes, Homer, Voltaire - enemies of Holocaust tyranny
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:14:12 GMT
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	Or, Disagreeable Words for the ADL, Simon Wiesenthal and Co.
                 ==============================

	
	"Liberty of speech, inviteth and provoketh liberty to be used
again, and so bringeth much to a man's knowledge."
                                            Francis Bacon

	"The most beautiful thing in the world is freedom of speech."
                                            Diogenes

	"To speaketh his thoughts is every freeman's right, in peace and
war, in council and in fight."
                                            Homer

	"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it."
                                            Voltaire


	Freedom of Speech is the enemy of the totalitarian Holocaust lie.
                                            Moran 

                                             


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:36:56 PDT 1996
Article: 75465 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocau$t $urvivor $ue$
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:49:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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					Nov. 6, 1993
                          N.Y. Times

      "American Survivor of Holocaust Is Trying to Sue"

  Washington, "Lawyers for an American survivor of the Holocaust asked
a Federal appeals court to uphold his right to sue Germany for $17
million in war reparations.

	The German Government is claiming sovereign immunity from the
suit filed by Hugo Princz, 70 of Highland Park, N.J. who spent three
years in Nazi death camps during WW II.

	But a lawyer for Mr. Princz, Steven Perles, says the enormity and
barbarity of the crimes committed against Mr.Princz, who is Jewish,
qualify him for an exemption to the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act
of 1976.

	In a hearing on the question of immunity, Chief Justice Patricia
Wald of the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals for the District of
Columbia, pressed Mr.Perles to cite cases where such an exception has
been used.

	'Are you asking us to take some leaps we absolutely have no
precedent for?' Judge Wald asked 'I'm not saying it is wrong, but we
have to leap off the diving board of precedence'.

	Mr.Perles also argued that the case should be brought under a
commercial exception to the Foreign Sovereign Act. He said that by
enslaving Mr.Princz in companies that fed the German war machine, the
Government forced him into commercial enterprise directed against the
U.S.

	...

	...

	Mr.Perles sued the German Government for $17 million in March,
1992, Judge Stanley Sporkin of Federal District Court ruled in his
favor last December." 
                  ==============================

"... who spent three years in Nazi death camps during WW II."

	"Three years" in "death camps"? 

"But a lawyer for Mr. Princz, Steven Perles, says the enormity and
barbarity of the crimes committed against Mr.Princz, who is Jewish,
qualify him for an exemption to the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act
of 1976."

	"Three years" in "death camps" and was "Jewish"? 

	I don't how this appeal turned out, but I guess he had a good ol'
Holocaust survivor story for why he wasn't put to death.

	This next paragraph is an ideal example of "chutzpah". 

"Mr.Perles also argued that the case should be brought under a
commercial exception to the Foreign Sovereign Act. He said that by
enslaving Mr.Princz in companies that fed the German war machine, the
Government forced him into commercial enterprise directed against the
U.S."

	Some angle. This is the same kind of stuff that directs a good
part of our goernment's policies. Foreign affairs and domestic
legislation such as the "terrorist" hysteria and our Constitution. 

	Like a real live comic strip. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:36:57 PDT 1996
Article: 75466 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 3,000,000 Prewar Polish Jews?
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:03:00 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <326d7fed.1578599@199.0.216.204>
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>Atually more, according to the Polish governement's
>own census data. I have posted the figures before, but 
>do not have them with me.
>
>Would you like to see them again?

	Yea.

>tom moran wrote:
>
>You should just post them without asking. Whatever it is, when
>the gas chamber story falls, everything else goes with it.
>
>
>d.A.:
>
>I take that to mean "yes".
>
>
>On p 31 of Reuben Ainsztein's book 
>"Juedischer Widerstand im deutschbesetzen
>Osteuropa waehrend des zweiten Weltkieges." 
>(Published in Germany in 1993), the official
>Polish census of 1931 counted  3,132,581 Jews.
>
>
>I have frequently posted passages from
>Reuben Ainsztein's book, which contains
>the figures. I thought I would spare
>the weary reader from further such repetitions.
>Seasoned posters like you should either recall
>these postings or be able to use Dejanews to
>find them.
>
>I apologise for overestimating both your memory
>and your resourcefulness.
>
>d.A.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:36:58 PDT 1996
Article: 75467 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Christian Revisionism Okay but for the Holocaust it's "Hate"
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:13:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	For the last two years there has been considerable commentary
appearing in main stream medias such as the L.A.Times, N.Y.Times,
Newsweek and Time Magazines on the validity of the most central points
of Christianity.

	Did Christ do this - did Christ really do that? Was Christ really
the son of god?

	I don't know if there have been scores of websites out here, or
hundreds of newspaper articles, letters to the editors, columns, full
page ads and books condemning this growing revisionist trend towards
Christianity as hateful, but I do know there have been all these media
formats used extensively to denounce any and all who question the
Holocaust as purveyors of "HATE" who are "NEO-NAZIS" and "RACIST" 

	Often accompanying or included in the extensive obvious
conspiracy to brand Holocaust revisionist as racist, neo-Nazi haters
are calls for special censorship against Holocaust revisionism.

	Little groups running here and there, 'stamping down their feet'
in demonstration of righteousness, mass phone call campaigns and bomb
threats is how those who are so dependent on the Holocaust story go
about it.

	"Hate", Hate", Hate" is their battle cry.


	Christian revisionism is something that questions that which is
dear to the hearts of hundreds of millions, something fundamentally,
inheritably central to human beings, religion.

	Holocaust revisionism questions the accuracy of a historical
event.

	The Christians seem to be able to take it with a certain grace. 

	For those who are dependent on the Holocaust story, it's "Hate",
"neo-Nazi", "Racist" - "anti-Semitism".
 	 	 	       
	There is something really different between reactions.
	
	Something disproportionate.
     
	Something quite unaesthetic.

	Something ugly.

	Something weak.	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:36:59 PDT 1996
Article: 75471 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:14:49 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	During the American Revolution fighting took place for years.
Over the plains and up the mountains, guns, cannons, fire and freezing
cold. Men losing their arms, legs and lives. Sons and daughters losing
fathers. Wives losing husbands. Friends dying together in mangled
lumps. And when it was all over the United States stood before the
world with its grand document like no other nation had ever seen
before. The Constitution of the United states.
	This quest for freedom is not something unique to the United
States alone, it has been going on for w. In ancient Greece and Rome,
and before that, the struggle has been going on. The French Revolution
the Magna Carta. Many fighters have died across the ages and the
Constitution of the United States is the latest and most significant
of the culmination this human struggle. We must recognize these
ancient fighters as part of our heritage.
	Now here we are, 200 and some years after the Revolution and
thousands of years after the others with Simon Wiesenthals, ADLs and
the like come latelies plying about our nation trying to undo it all.
	Regardless of what the Jews will self proclaim about their place
at the head of this human history of seeking justice and freedoms for
the people, ancient Israel never had such freedoms for their own
people under their own government, the truth lies in their two little
books. And the history of their activity in the United States is well
documented, tenacious to control our modes of communication, using it
to sell us on Israel, their one and only allegiance. The little 2%
putting out the 100% on how great they are.   
	Its lucky we have the ACLU with the Jewish leadership out on the
front lines defending us. Going to court, raising legal precedences,
citing this and that, filing this, making a motion for that. Of course
all this is prone to juggling by some magistrate before he or she
makes a determination. One person, maybe two or three. One giving
here, another giving there. This is the vulnerability of our freedoms
if we should allow it to be a legal issue, dependant on the will and
competency of the minuscule.
	The Constitution of the United States is a philosophical
doctrine. It can not be left up to magistrates and senators to make
amendments or set limits on the basic tenets as they have been doing
with increasing frequency. The Constitution being a philosophical
document should be left up to the national discussion. It has to be
discussed in the same fashion that we would discuss any philosophy. 

	Some talk real democracy, others just use the word. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:37:00 PDT 1996
Article: 75473 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: U.S. Sponsored Dissemination of the Lie
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:08:46 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 44
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	Found under:
	
	Webcrawler > Zionism > Holocaust Index
    ========================================

Link to Holocaust curriculum www site
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 13:32:42 -0400
From: Peter Nagourney 

This curriculum, for high school students, is a member of the U.S.
Department of Education's National Diffusion Network, a program
recognizing and supporting the dissemination of exemplary curricula.
The Life Unworthy of Life curriculum is a flexible, self-contained,
innovative program that engages, challenges, and guides students
through the historical and ethical issues surrounding the Holocaust.
It addresses issues of prejudice, racism, and democratic values. The
18-lesson program incorporates a 62-minute videotape, based on
interviews with survivors, used with 5 of the lessons. The authors of
the curriculum are Dr. Sidney Bolkosky, Dr. David Harris, and Betty
Rotberg Ellias. 

The site is at:
"http://www.holocaustcurriculum.org">www.holocaustcurriculum.org 

===============================================================
	Links:

   "http://www.almanac.bc.ca/"> T H E N I Z K O R P R O J E C T
   
  DEDICATED TO THE NEARLY TWELVE MILLION VICTIMS 
  RUTHLESSLY DESTROYED BY ADOLF HITLER AND HIS NAZI REGIME
   ---------------------------------------------------   
   
   Nizkor is not a single collection of Web pages. It is a collage of
   different projects, focusing around the Holocaust and the denial of
   the Holocaust, which is often wrongly called Holocaust      
   "revisionism."

   Nizkor's existence is the result of the efforts of many people. 






From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:37:00 PDT 1996
Article: 75475 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Push, push, push $$$$$$
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:50:36 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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     	"Hungary to Compensate Jews for Wartime Losses"
                    N.Y.Times, July 4, 1996

	The Government has agreed to compensate the Jewish community for
property seized during WWII, a Jewish leader said today.
	'This is a landmark agreement, a big step forward', said Gusztav
Zoltai, head of the Hungarian Jewish Communities.
	More than 600,000 of the million Jews who lived in Hungary before
WWII were killed in the Holocasut. Today there are about 100,000 Jews
in Hungary, including 20,000 Holocaust survivors.
	....
	The agreement establishes a Hungarian Jewish Heritage Foundation
to manage the assets, ... plus 26 million dollars .... $$$$$$$$$$
	Establishment of the foundation is subject to confirmation by
Parliment, ... The agreement does not foresee direct restitution of
property even if owners or decendants can be found, ..."


	Well, 600,000 Jews killed? Well, sometimes its 500,000, and
sometimes is 400,000, and sometimes 200,000.

	The article tells us there are 20,000 "survivors" out of the
100,000 remaining. Seeing how it is now 1996, 50 years after the the
dubious facts, we have 1/5 of those remaining today being "survivors".

	It doesn't seem to have gone all that well for the Jews
negotiating. No property is to be part of the deal and Parliment still
has to vote on whatever was discussed. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:37:01 PDT 1996
Article: 75476 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Irish Potato Holocaust - History
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:04:04 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 29
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>The Irish Potato Holocaust - History
>
>BACKGROUND: The U.S. Senate repudiated the anti-WASP
>National Standards for History in Schools 99 to 1 - as a result the
>States have imposed State Standards for History in Schools.
>
>Reported today (AP) New York signed a state law last week that
>public students over eight must be taught about the Potato Holocaust,
>wherein the English starved to death 1 million people and led 2
>million others to immigrate.
>
>Montana requires the teaching about the Manifest Destiny Holocaust.
>
>New Jersey also requires teaching the Potato Holocaust and the
>Armenian Holocaust in addition to the Jewish Holocaust.
>
>Some historians expect to add the Turkish-Armenian Holocaust to
>their curriculum where student populations demand it.
>
>Pretty soon, Animal Rights Historians can be expected to add the
>study of the Bison Holocaust wherein 60,000,000 Bison were
>exterminated by U.S. orders to exterminate the Plains Indians in order
>to build the English owned U.S. railroads west of the Mississippi.

	The reason all these other 'holocausts' are pressed is so the,
'THE' Holocaust, won't stand out as the only one.

	It wasn't the Irish who pressed for their "holocaust" or the
Armenians, it was the Jews to cover their tracks.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 12:49:54 PDT 1996
Article: 75480 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "The Highest Decoration"
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:38:39 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>>   pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) writes:
>>  On 16 Oct 1996 09:36:47 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>>  
>>  >According to "A Secret Press in Nazi Europe"
>>  >page 78, there appears the following caption
>>  >below a photograph of a Jewish Partisan:
>>  >
>>  >"Lola Warszawczyk killed while blowing up
>>  >the 16th train was posthumously awarded
>>  >the highest order "Hero of the Soviet Union".
>>  >
>>  >Shengold Press, 1978/Kowalski.
>>  Really rblackmore/jbellling, you must be drinking the BBTT's private
>>  stock. Wherein the caption does it say that "Lola Warszawczyk" was
>>  Jewish?? How would a photograph of a dead person prove that person was
>>  Jewish?? Besides if all this is true, then I have to wonder, are you
>>  some how bothered that people fought back against the Nazi Regime?? 
>>  Let alone that some who fought back were Jews??
>>                
>
>
>>  
>>>>>
>If you have been following the posts concerning 
>Mr. Kowalski's book, then you would know that
>she was indeed Jewish.  Aside from that, I have 
>a reason for posting everything, and I shall get
>to those reasons in due time.  Now, in answer to
>your question:  
>
>No, I have no objections to Jewish people
>defending themselves.  Why would I ever
>object to that?  The purpose of Mr. Kowalski's
>book, by the way, was to demonstrate that the
>Jews DID fight.  All of this is leading somewhere.
>Hab Geduld, mein Junge, hab Geduld.

	From what you have given here as to the contents of this book is
nothing more than wishful, ethnocentric thinking. I would bet the
writer would not be able to document 99% of the contents. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 13:44:45 PDT 1996
Article: 75484 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A FRIENDLY ADDRESS TO ALL AMERICANS
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:46:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <3277d064.15677517@199.0.216.204>
References: <$d+ABBAxsuYyEwXg@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <541jki$hqp@is05.micron.net> <543b7u$5io@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <543n9q$f0l@is05.micron.net> <845632118snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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>In article <543n9q$f0l@is05.micron.net> kurtstel@micron.net "Kurt Stele" writes:
>
>> The Jewish Secretary Robin Cook just said England is going to criminalize
>>  Holocaust
>> denial.    
>
>Robin Cook is not a Jew.

	Jewish lackey?

>-- 
>"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself 
>the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 14:36:05 PDT 1996
Article: 75493 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust $$$$$ Holocaust $$$$$ Holocaust $$$$$
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:50:14 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	          "U.S. to Launch Inquiry Into Nazi Loot"
                        L.A.Times, Oct. 5, 1996

Review: Document search
will try to pin down U.S.
role in what happened to 
assets, many seized 
>from  Jews.

	Washington - The Clinton administration on Friday ordered an
urgent search of half-century-old documents to try to determine what
happened to Nazi gold and other wealth - much of it stolen from
victims of the Holocaust - in the hectic days following WW II.
	State Department spokesman Nicholas Burns said the review is
intended to 'provide a greater understanding of the role played by the
United States and other countries' in handling Nazi loot, much of it
believed to be held in numbered Swiss bank accounts.
	The U.S. review comes amid a revived international quest to
recover gold the Nazis stole from conquered nations, Jewish businesses
and individual Jews ...
	...
	Burns said the State Department decided to conduct the U.S. study
at the urging of Sen. Alfonse M. D'Amato (R- N.Y.)
	The U.S. review could aid Jewish organizations in their efforts
to trace the jewelry, melted-down gold teeth and other assets that the
Nazis stole from Holocaust victims.
	... 
	Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate director of the Simon Wiesenthal
Center in L.A., said the study should help orgs. like his and the
World Jewish Congress in that endeavor.
	...
	Cooper said assets worth between $30 billion and $90 billion in
current dollars ended up in Switzerland ...
	"Gold teeth, wedding bands, other jewelry, etc ... Maybe its not
all identifiable, but it should be clear the gold was sold by other
than its lawful owners.
	... Some documents from that era have already been made public.
	For instance, the Simon Wiesenthal Center obtained a memo ... The
memo noted that Heinrich Himmler, chief of Hitler's SS, the
organization that organized and carried out the extermination of 6
million European Jews, as well as about 5 million others, used the
German national bank to "convert SS loot into orthodox financial
accounts. Other documents showed a concerted effort to trace those and
other Nazi assets.
	Cooper said assets worth between $30 billion and $90 billion in
current dollars ended up in Switzerland ...
	"Gold teeth, wedding bands, other jewelry, etc ... Maybe its not
all identifiable, but it should be clear the gold was sold by other
than its lawful owners. he saw 75 deliveries of valuables from the SS,
...
	...
	A %20 billion class-action lawsuit was filed Thursday in Brooklyn
federal court on behalf of Holocaust survivors against Swiss banks for
allegedly refusing to return victims' money, jewelry and other assets.
	Defendants include Union Bank of Switzerland ... and more than
100 unnamed banking institutions. 
	The exact number in the potential class is unknown, the lawsuit
stated.

========================================================================

Washington - The Clinton administration on Friday ordered an urgent
search ...

	["urgent"?  Get the $$$$$$$$$$ before revisionism is accepted on
the global scale.]

State Department spokesman Nicholas Burns said the review is intended
to 'provide a greater understanding of the role played by the United
States ...  

	[Maybe they can show the 'Evil U.S.', make us pay.]

The U.S. review comes amid a revived international quest to recover
gold the Nazis stole from conquered nations, Jewish businesses and
individual Jews ...	

	["International quest" = U.S./England/Jews]

The U.S. review could aid Jewish organizations in their efforts to
trace the jewelry, melted-down gold teeth and other assets that the
Nazis stole from Holocaust victims.

	[Defining, sorting and proving this should be a real show of
chutzpa.]

Cooper said assets worth between $30 billion and $90 billion in
current dollars ended up in Switzerland ...

	["$30 billion" or three times that, "$90 billion. Now that's
conforming to the rest of Holocaust numerology. In a prior report, a
Swiss spokesman said the Jews shouldn't expect "trillions, or even
millions".]

	"Gold teeth, wedding bands, other jewelry, etc ... Maybe its not
all identifiable, but it should be clear the gold was sold by other
than its lawful owners."

	[No problem. The Jews will be trying some of their wacky logic.
It should be interesting if a book is ever written about all this,
complete with the inside intrigues.]

A %20 billion class-action lawsuit was filed Thursday in Brooklyn
federal court on behalf of Holocaust survivors against Swiss banks ...
	
	[Not only is our State Department going to be tied up in all the
work to get the Jews some gold and $$,$$$,$$$,$$$, but our courts.] 

	WHERES THE GOLD? WHERES THE MONEY? GIMME, GIMME, GIMME.

That's what the constant Jewish bellowing of the Holocaust story is
all about.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 14:36:06 PDT 1996
Article: 75494 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Exaggerated $,$$$,$$$,$$$ claims exposed
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:55:51 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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        "Jewish Group Rejects Swiss Bank Survey"
              (N.Y. Times, Feb. 9, 1996)

	"Zurich, Feb.8 (Reuters) -- The World Jewish Congress described
as unacceptable a survey that concluded that Swiss banks held only $32
million deposited by foreign clients who may have died in the
Holocaust.
	The Swiss Bankers Association said on Wednesday that the results
of the survey should serve to refute claims that the assets of victims
of the Nazis amounted to hundreds of millions of dollars.
	But the World Jewish Congress said in a statement issued in
Brussels that the Swiss associations findings were unacceptable. In
New York, a spokesman for the congress, Elan Steinberg, said that
Jewish groups were preparing legal action in the Unitied States
against Swiss banks and had asked for Senate hearings on Swiss banking
practices.
	He added that the World Jewish Congress would announce plans in
Jeruselem on Friday for the establishment of a clearing house for
claims and start its own independant investigation."


	'WHERES THE MONEY.' 'WE WANT THE MONEY.'
	Going to get the United States Congress into supporting this? 	
	Going to establish a "clearing house" for "claims"? This should
be something. Probably like seeking out the names of Holocaust
victims. We can expect thousands of Jews writing in fictions in an
attempt to shake down the Swiss government.
	Push, push, push. 

 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 15:24:17 PDT 1996
Article: 164534 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <3268969a.883962@199.0.216.204>
Control: cancel <3268969a.883962@199.0.216.204>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:41:22 GMT
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From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 18:09:01 PDT 1996
Article: 75522 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$ statement
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:48:00 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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			The Holocasut Extortion Racket
	
	Almost from day one the Jews have been collecting $$$$$ from the
Holocaust story. First from Germany, which to this day, counting all
the billions given to "survivors" and Israel amounts to hundreds of
billions of dollars.

	The Holocaust is and has been used to extract money from the
United States. The treasury records would show at least 150 billion
dollars given to Israel and/or other nations to buy their acceptance
of the Jewish state. 

	Ex-Secretary of State, George Ball, in a book estimates over 500
billion dollars has been lost on the Jewish state, considering other
things, such as U.S. military operations, counter terrorist costs,
money lost to boycotting Israel's enemies, and a myriad of other loses
due to parties in the U.S. failing to stand up for real American
interests.

	As of late, the Jews have been engaged in new angles to extort
money from a variety of countries, evidently in a rush to get as much
as they can before the story collapses into the realms of fiction.

	Not seeming to care that the latest push will only add to the
already huge record of intrigues for censorship and greed, they are
out to get as much as they can. Just about everyone in the world is
evil and owes the Jews something.

	Their hundreds of propaganda ads and media releases about how
they are so concerned for human rights and the lessons of the
Holocaust story are only their words. The tangible reality is Israel
and $$$$$$.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 18:44:58 PDT 1996
Article: 75524 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: U.S. Sponsored Dissemination of the Lie
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:57:21 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 25
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>
>	Found under:
>	
>	Webcrawler > Zionism > Holocaust Index
>    ========================================
>
>Link to Holocaust curriculum www site
>Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 13:32:42 -0400
>From: Peter Nagourney 
>
>This curriculum, for high school students, is a member of the U.S.
>Department of Education's National Diffusion Network, a program
>recognizing and supporting the dissemination of exemplary curricula.
>The Life Unworthy of Life curriculum is a flexible, self-contained,
>innovative program that engages, challenges, and guides students
>through the historical and ethical issues surrounding the Holocaust.
>It addresses issues of prejudice, racism, and democratic values. The
>18-lesson program incorporates a 62-minute videotape, based on
>interviews with survivors, used with 5 of the lessons. The authors of

	Even though the United states is the one that supplies the Jews
with all the arms they need to commit their atrocities and protects
them in the U.N., the "Life Unworthy of Life" curriculum is not so
"flexible" that it should include Palestinian and Lebanese victims of
the ongoing bashings by the Jews. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 18:44:59 PDT 1996
Article: 75525 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Happy "Columbus Was a Jew" Day
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:50:02 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <3278d096.15728158@199.0.216.204>
References: <32708da3.10984890@199.0.216.204>  <32638254.5703@ccnis.net> <326de2a0.1354889@199.0.216.204>  <845631631snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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>In article 
>           konradv@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu "Konrad Vandegaer" writes:
>
>> 
>> 
>> > >The story is that Columbus' parents (or was it grandparents?) were
>> > >forcibly converted from Judasim to Catholicism during the Spanish
>> > >Inquisition.  
>> 
>> 
>>   Strange considering that Columbus was ITALIAN.  Of course jews being
>>   as smart as they are would know this.  Thus, it becomes apparent, the
>>   story must have been concocted by a revisionist and falsely attributed
>>   to the jews.  Will they ever learn that this type of thing won't work?
>>   Sad to say, I don't think so. If they could learn from their flubs then
>>   they'd be smart enough to know that revisionism is garbage.  Thus it 
>>   goes "ad infinitum" and the rest of us must remain ever vigilant that
>>   their line doesn't become accepted fact.
>>
>
>In 1992 it was claimed in the Jewish Chronicle that Columbus was a Jew.
>I suppose that's another thing to hate them for: discovering America. 

	The Jews were niether into the sciences or high seas adventure.
This was an area that was completely held to by the goyim. The Jews
were too obsessed with gaining control through commercial angles. This
would make it unlikely Columbus was a Jew. 

>-- 
>"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself 
>the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Oct 18 19:39:32 PDT 1996
Article: 75529 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Wheres the $$$$$$? Gimme,Gimme,Gimme
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:49:51 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	The continuing saga of the Jewish attempts to retrieve up to
billions from Swiss banks.

	Previously reported was the Jewish attempts to claim money left
over in Swiss accounts that are said to have been left by Holocaust
victims.

	In one report it was stated that the Jews were going to get the
U.S. Congress in on the act, with D'Amato's name explicitly. Well he's
in on it.

                	N.Y.Times May 2, 96.
      "Swiss Accord Is Called Near On Holocaust Victims' Funds"

	"Leaders of Jewish organizations and swiss banking officials are
expected to sign an agreement today to search for funds deposited in
Switzerland during the frantic days of WWII by those who died in the
Holocaust."

	"Under the proposal, a committee headed by a chairman and six
members, three appointed by Jewish organizations and three by Swiss
bankers, would oversee the auditors."

	"Edgar Bronfman Sr., president of the World Jewish Congress, said
he expected the agreement will be signed today in N.Y."

	"At a hearing last week, Senator Alfonso D'Amato, Rep. New York
and chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, questioned whether Swiss
bank officials were using that country's bank secrecy laws to shield
records from inspection."

	"One recently declassified Treasury Department document from 1945
suggested that in one Swiss bank alone there were 182 accounts, mostly
>from  Romanian Jews, worth two million, funds that with interest would
now be worth about $20 million."


	Lets see. The Jews said they were going to get the U.S. Senate in
on it, and it came through.
	The Swiss are going to allow Jews to sift through their records,
many of which we assume are others private business.
	They figure whatever real numbers they find should be worth ten
times the amount.

	It would be interesting to see the "recently declassified
Treasury Department document". Seems they are pouring all over the
place. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 19 10:44:29 PDT 1996
Article: 75547 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: McVay turned down
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:14:32 GMT
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	McVay jumping in to lash around with his usual wet noodle under
"RE: HATE HATE HATE ..."etc.


McVay:
>This is a typical example of the unbelievable stupidity of
>Jew-bashers like Judit. Here we have her angry little finger
>being pointed at B'nai B'rith (Or B'nai Brith, in Canada), an
>organization which is suffering from declining membership and
>revenue in both countries, and she's trying to convince the
>audience that B'nai Brith somehow "represents every Jew on the
>planet." I wonder if we've found Moran's sister?

	Now how would McVay come to have a notion about the "declining
revenues" of the Zionist front, B'nai B'rith. There's only one way he
could have gotten this into his head. Its obvious this is what they
told him when he ask for a raise. 




From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 19 10:44:30 PDT 1996
Article: 75651 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Best of Hilary Ostrov
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 13:48:42 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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                The Best of Nizkor; 

              Hilary Ostrov representing,


Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
      			-----------

	Hilary is one of the Holocaust defenders best commentators. Her
stuff represents the best quality postings out here by those who are
Holocaust dependent.
	     		-----------

                 The Best of Nizkor

Example No.1, and then so on.

"Actually Tommie, there was a ZOG meeting that day, and all the
Nizkorites - including Mr. McVay - decided that in the interest of
conserving bandwidth (and not seeing any sign that you have mastered
the art of taming your rigii and noticing that you and Mr. Giwer are
becoming increasingly indistinguishable, so that - as in this
particular post - you appear to be talking only to yourself) we're
just going to ignore you.

However, since Mr. Katz was not able to attend the meeting, and hadn't
read our new secret protocols of responding to Tommie, he did respond.
And his response does bear repeating:"
                           ==============

"Poor Mr. Moran!  His rigii reading must be in a complete fog, and his
legal pad in total disarray."
                           ==============

"Let me explain what an "archive file" is, Mr. Moran.  On second
thoughts, no I won't.  You seem to need the practice using a
dictionary.  So look it up.  Perhaps then you will understand the
^^^^[1] reference above.

And if you ever succeeded in mastering the lessons I posted for you on
how to use your newsreader to copy an URL, you might want to make note
of the following which will make it very easy for you not to lose
track of your trail of lies in the future:

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom"
                           ================

"Mr. Eideken, I believe we may be doing Mr. Moran (and perhaps his
alter-ego/echo-clone, Mr. Giwer) a grave disservice.  As the above
clearly indicates, Mr. Moran finds it exceedingly difficult to give
credence to the possibility that you might have visited a library
(perhaps because he himself has never spent any productive time in a
library).  The poor man keeps pleading for PHOTOS.
Btw, see if you can get the librarian to include a few PHOTOS of
"books" - as well as some simple instructions on how to read them."
                             ===============

"**Your new, improved ZOG decoder ring is en route and contains your
secret password for the code to decipher the password for access to
http://www.topsecret.zog.com/ where you will find his latest address. 

Posted and secretly e-mailed to Mr. Eideken"
                             ===============

"Actually, Mr. Van Alstine, as you and others have so cogently
demonstrated, Mr. Giwer *doesn't* have a leg to stand on.  Perhaps it
is time to create a new newsgroup where he and Mr. Moran can continue
to delude themselves: 

alt.PAR-from-the-PRIG (Pompous Arrogant Redundancy from the
Pontificating Ridiculously Ignorant Giwer)"
                             ================

"Please Mr. Moran, can you be a little more inspiring; so that maybe
Mr. Morris will post some more delicious recipes ... they have been
the most enlightening consequence of your posts in the past :>)"
                             ================

"Now Mr. Moran has shown that he can post a complete sentence without
a spelling error (although he has yet to master syntax and grammar),
perhaps he will learn how to go to a library (or a bookstore), read a
reference book and do his own homework."
                             ================

"Perhaps Mr. Moran's "powder" or that "monkey on his back" has
affected is recall of how to copy an URL from his NewsReader to his
Web browser.  The following excerpted repost is presented as a public
service:" 
                             ================

"From: A Lesson for Mr. Moran (Was Re: Where are the URLs?) - posted
to
alt.revisionism Dec. 1/95

	[To further assist Mr. Moran, I have amended the *explicits* to
inimize his confusion.  The amendments are indented and contained
within square brackets, just like this comment.]"
                             ===============

"Poor Li'l Tommy.  Looks like he's succumbed to Giwerundic paupacy.
Must be one of the tortable side effects of "freudian pasting"."
                           ===============

"Good advice to the "revisionists", though, Tommy.  But past
experience suggests that they are too hooked on their lies to be
*able* to refrain from the practice of "revisionism"."
                           ===============

Well, nice try Mr. McCarthy, but it doesn't seem to have helped.
You know for a while I thought I saw some signs of progress.  But now
it seems that Mr. Moran's progress is in remission (or maybe that
should be retransmission ... he's run this little gambit before,
hasn't he?!)  

I'll leave his brilliant little response attached.  It is somewhat
amusing in a way.  What _is_ this JDL declaration bit?! Doesn't he
think we have enough to do with Nizkor pages?!  Sheesh, he must think
we go all over the net creating pages for other people! 

He claims that Nizkor is engaging in "inverted suggestion."   I don't
think any of the web pages are upside down are they?  Or maybe he
thinks that because there is a *mirror* site on *eye.net* that there
must be an optical illusion somewhere - and he's just taken a stab in
the dark.  And he thinks our disclaimer is "tacit"!  Sheesh, you'd
think by now, he of all people would recognize an "explicit" when he
saw one!
                     ===================

TRANSLATION: Even though I do not have a shred of evidence to support
my ludicrous claims and "disbeliefs", I'm going to whine and complain
because people keep demanding that I provide proof of the claims I
make in my hate-filled fact-bereft anti-Semitic drivellous diatribes.
                     ====================

Mr. Thomas, I believe the appropriate expression here is
pot.kettle.black  

If the reader is somewhat puzzled by my so-called "personal attack", I
do believe that all will be quickly clarified - and indeed confirmed -
by a perusal of the extensive postings of Mr. Moran which can be found
at:
                     ===================

Hmmm ... so you believe this is a legitimate "term" and _not_ the
equivalent of name calling in the absence of any substantive facts.

I think we may have a very strong difference of opinion here, Mr.
Thomas.  Heavens, next thing I know you will be suggesting that I have
been engaging in tortable paupacies!
                    ====================

TRANSLATION: Even though I do not have a shred of evidence to support
my ludicrous claims and "disbeliefs", I'm going to whine and complain
because people keep demanding that I provide proof of the claims I
make in my hate-filled fact-bereft anti-Semitic drivellous diatribes.
                    ====================

Definitely _not_ on _Saturday_ morning, Mr. Kelley!  And if the
Lubavitch Hassidim were in  and they knocked on your
door on Sunday morning (or any other morning - or any part of any
other day, for that matter), they would do so _only_ if they saw a
mezuzzah on your doorpost.
                    ====================

Ah, I see that everyone's favourite "denier in search of a persona"
has now taken upon himself (in an indisputably "Testimentary" fashion)
the mantle of Doctor of Divinity.
                    ====================


http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/myssiwyg.html


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 19 10:44:30 PDT 1996
Article: 75661 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: England to Enforce the Holocaust Lie
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 13:43:39 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:75661 alt.conspiracy:101132

>In <3266E2F7.41C6@itsa.ucsf.edu>, Brian Harmon 
>wrote:
>
>>tom moran wrote:
>>[..]
>>> Your an idiot Chuck. 
>
>> Your grammar and thinking skills amaze me to this
>> day, Mr. Moran.  tell me, how do you manage to dress
>> yourself without help?
>
>Gee, Brian, perhaps he _doesn't_ manage!  I don't think you were here
>when Mr. Moran proudly announced that he doesn't wear shoes (thereby
>eliminating the need to tell his right foot from his left, one might
>reasonably think)  I also recall that  Mr. Moran told us of his
>mother's efforts to assist him in understanding the complexities of
>his rigii.  So perhaps she helps him dress as well :>)

	You say you "recall"? Is this from your imagination or are you
going to produce a reference to article? 

>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 19 10:44:31 PDT 1996
Article: 75663 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: More Wayout Jewish Numbers
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 14:38:46 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	                      L.A.Times
                         Oct. 19, 1996

	"Rabbi Urges Jews to Overcome Bias in Seeking Converts"

"Judaism: In sermon to his synagogue,
Rabbi Harold Schulweis ways the 
notion of conversion is upsetting to 
some Jews because they feel Judaism 
is less ideology than a biology."

	Well so much for the Jewish claims that Judaism isn't racist.

     During the extended article we are presented the case of a lone
convert, who is said to have converted to Catholicism only to quit
that for Judaism. 
	Jews hate Catholics, and any chance they get to downgrade them,
the Jews take it.

	The rabbi stated that the "Jewish mission, does not mean
denigration of other religions or vulgar promotion of evangelical
enthusiasm ... and circus conversion". ( "..." Times copy)

	So it seems that the ugly little rabbi all in the same sentence
says he is not out to "denigrate" other religions and then refers to
"vulgar promotion of evangelical enthusiasm" and "... circus
conversions", which we can take to mean ceremonies of other religions.


	Anyway, on to the way out population claim, the kind of stuff you
won't see any Catholic ever blurting out.

	The rabbi, "Rabbi Schulwies noted that a modern Jewish historian,
Salo Baron, estimated that the number of Jews grew [through
proselytizing] from 150,000 in 586 B.C. to 8 million in the 1st
Century A.D., and that the Gospel of Matthew expressed early Christian
hostility ..."	

	"8 million"? His first impulse was probably to make it 80
million, but even a Jew knows that incredible claims can be way too
incredible.

	Would this Jewish historian be able to substantiate even 10% of
his 8 million claim with recognized scientific methods, or would he
have to muster up an righteous dose of chutzpa? 

	"8 million" would be a substantial number in those days and would
have created a certain documentable existence. The more reasonable
facts would be, that the Jews lost more than they gained, through the
occupation of the superior Greeks and Romans.

	Something came along that put the Jewish biblical scholars of the
day to rest, since biblical historians recognize the Bible narration
came to an end around the same time the present day Jewish historian
says the Jews went on a huge conversion program.  		 
	 
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 19 10:44:32 PDT 1996
Article: 75669 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Hilary Ostrov
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:05:43 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Tommy demonstrates that he has mastered cut 'n paste 101:

WOW! Look at that folks:  Bacon, Diogenes, Homer, and Voltaire - all
spelled correctly (and even quoted correctly, I think!  Hey, John ...
did Moran bring home the Bacon, OK?!)  And the ultimate wisdom he
proffers is his very own "deep thought."  Talk about an oxymoran!!

Because I am  loathe to place my own "deep thought" in proximity to
those of such great thinkers, I do thank Li'l Tommy whose words
provide some distance between the ridiculous and the sublime.

	"Freedom of speech is the enemy of Tom Moran.  He shoots himself
in
the foot every time he opens his mouth."
			Ostrov

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov               



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 19 10:44:32 PDT 1996
Article: 75679 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Socrates and Plato for Revisionist Rights
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 13:26:43 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>
>
>
>
>
>MAN SENTENCED TO DEATH FOR QUESTIONING ORTHODOXY
>
>"The effect of these investigations of mine, gentlemen,, has been 
>to arouse against me a great deal of hostility, and hostility of a 
>particularly bitter and persistent kind... There is another reason 
>for my being unpopular.  A number of young men with wealthy fathers 
>and plenty of leisure have deliberately attached themselves to me 
>because they enjoy hearing other people cross-questioned.  These 
>often take me as their model, and go on to try to question other 
>persons; > 


=================================================================
>whereupon, I suppose, they find an unlimited number of 
>people who think that they know something, but really know little 
>or nothing.

	I, Moran, have had a lot of conversation with many different
people on many different topics, and I can relate to this.

	People will blurt out almost anything to defend a belief. The
most ridiculous angles and irrelevancies.

	Moran knows something about people that most people don't know
about.

	Whenever I get into a conversation with someone and the idiotic
arguments start to come my way, I engage the person for a little while
in order to give the conversation a little history and then I say,
'Hold it. Lets hold off on this. I'll tell you what we can do. Let's
wait until I have a recorder with me and we can record the
conversation'.  Every single time, this trapped look comes across the
bull singer's face.

	Like a driver who is speeding and then notices a cop up ahead, he
slows down.

	Like the urban yuppie cowboy in his spiffy little car, fast on
the straight away, slow on the turns.

	Like someone, 'caught with their pants down'.

	
	



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 19 10:44:33 PDT 1996
Article: 75684 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Hilary Ostrov
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 13:54:09 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 9
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Still haven't figured out how to cite an URL, have you? Tsk.Tsk.Tsk.

Sorry, Li'l Tommy that's highly classified top secret ZOG subliminal
advertising code.  Only those who have the level 5 decoder rings know
what this means.  And we aren't talking.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 19 10:44:34 PDT 1996
Article: 75685 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Hilary Ostrov
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:04:06 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Gee, Brian, perhaps he _doesn't_ manage!  I don't think you were here
when Mr. Moran proudly announced that he doesn't wear shoes (thereby
eliminating the need to tell his right foot from his left, one might
reasonably think)  I also recall that  Mr. Moran told us of his
mother's efforts to assist him in understanding the complexities of
his rigii.  So perhaps she helps him dress as well :>)

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 19 10:44:34 PDT 1996
Article: 75686 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Hilary Ostrov
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:04:09 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 9
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Hmmm ... you consider these bandwidth-wasting forgeries "playing" do
you, Mr. "Blackmore"?  Oh, well, as someone once said,  small things
do amuse small minds.  Is your small mind _capable_ of understanding -
let alone answering - Mr. Morris' question, Mr. "Blackmore"?


=======================
Hilary Ostrov


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 19 15:05:22 PDT 1996
Article: 164812 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <3270de89.2890318@199.0.216.204>
Control: cancel <3270de89.2890318@199.0.216.204>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 14:38:19 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Oct 19 16:35:58 PDT 1996
Article: 75738 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Hilary Ostrov
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 13:56:06 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 12
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Gee, Sara, leopards never change their spots, do they?!

Well, apart from the fact that I've never seen any evidence that
"thinking" is an activity in which the troll has ever learned to
engage (or that he possesses the faculties to do so even if he wanted
to!), perhaps he's just an exhibitionist who is compelled to flaunt
his inadequacies - one of which is that he is incapable of learning
>from  his mistakes!

ro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 20 09:44:11 PDT 1996
Article: 75875 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Hilary Ostrov
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 13:09:17 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 12
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Hmmm... yes, Li'l Tommy.  I can see that you must be *quite* lost.
However, I do commend you on this perceptive and truthful observation.
But I do hope you won't be _too_ disappointed when I tell you that we
had that figured out without your assistance.

[Mr. Van Alstine's closing statement snipped.  But it was a good one,
wasn't it?!]

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 20 09:44:12 PDT 1996
Article: 75876 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GERMANS USE JETS TO DROWN OUT JEWISH SCREAMS IN "GAS CHAMBERS"
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 13:09:13 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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     A typical Mr.VanAlstine closing statement.

>"Gullible denier", 
>"leave your brains at the door", 
>"play in your denier sandbox"
>"good little Nazi propagandists"
>
>
>ABUSE: the hallmark of the holocaust hate propagandists.
>
>Mark van Alst is good at it, especially self-abuse.

	Mr.VanAlstine works for the revisionist side. He just doesn't
know it.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 20 09:44:13 PDT 1996
Article: 75882 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism"
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 13:29:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <326d27bb.1100037@199.0.216.204>
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>In article <32748238.2165692@199.0.216.204>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>>
>>	"Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism"? 
>>	
>>	Yup. This is one of the Jewish community's many absurd proposals.
>>
>>
>>	This would mean that objecting to the Zionist policy of shooting
>>down little kids with bullets for their throwing stones, uprooting
>>their daddies orchards, barring their daddies access to work, closing
>>their schools for years, holding them prisoners without due process,
>>torture, defying U.N. resolutions, breaking "peace" agreements,
>>rousting whole populations with bombs, blowing up refugee camps and
>>the myriad of other unaesthetic Zionist policies - ah yes, complaining
>>about this is an act of anti-Semitism.   
>
>	Actually, I would agree with you that it is possible to be
>anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic.  I'd even agree that some of
>Israel's policies towards Palestinians are reprehensible.
>
>	But then I'd ask: what has this got to do with the Holocaust?
>
>	How do you go from "Israelis commit atrocities on the West Bank"
>to "Nazis never committed atrocities in the concentration camps?"

	The Holocaust story created the climate for the creation of
Israel. Jew are constantly portraying themselves as victims of
atrocities and yet at the same time commit them. The relentless
onslaught of Holocaust in and on our medias is for two reasons. To
keeps the money coming, and, to maintain support for Israel.
	Enter Netscape. Type in "Holocaust" and you will see plenty of
"Zionism". Type In "Holocaust" and you will see plenty of Israel. Type
in "Zionism" and you will see plenty of "Holocaust".
	Like a horse and carriage. Like Siamese twins. Like a woven
clothe. 


>Peace
>Kevin Filan (why don't we just newgroup alt.jew-baiting and have it over
>with already?)
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 20 09:44:13 PDT 1996
Article: 75883 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How much of one could the other really eat?
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 13:34:49 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <326e2a6e.1790774@199.0.216.204>
References:  <53v6l5$d7e@is05.micron.net> <5415s2$roh@access5.digex.net> <326c7f2a.1383450@199.0.216.204> <54bvo6$dun@access4.digex.net> <54c0jr$2he@is05.micron.net>
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>mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <326c7f2a.1383450@199.0.216.204>,
>>tom moran  wrote:
>>>
>>>	When you givbe testimony it should be "literally".
>
>>    People still use figures of speech, even in testimony.
>
>This is garbage.  They want idiotic, metaphoric, and exaggerative testimony to be taken
>seriously enough to frame Germans yet when someone points out how absurd it is then they
>claim "Oh, it's just metaphorical.  You are unreasonable to take it so seriously."  

	Exactly.

>Kurt Stele
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 20 09:44:14 PDT 1996
Article: 75884 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A typical false eyewitness: Filip Muller, the plagiarist
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 13:36:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <326f2a9e.1838889@199.0.216.204>
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>A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk (Alexander Baron) writes:
>
>>> Evidently the jury was a lot less impressed by Christie's effort to
>>> entrap Hilberg into making an untenable statement than Mr. Beaulieu.
>>> Ernst Zuendel was, after all, convicted by *two* juries of spreading
>>> false news.
>
>>Tell the whole truth, John, he appealed all the way to the Supreme Court
>>and the verdict was overturned by a 4-3 ruling.
>
>Then you tell the whole truth as well. Did the Supreme Court's decision
>have anything to do with the credibility of Hilberg or any other witness,
>or wasn't it a judgement on the constitutionality of the law under which
>Zuendel was charged?

	The witnesses, including Hilberg, spoke. In the end, the cause
lost. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 20 09:44:15 PDT 1996
Article: 75906 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Extermination cover up techniques
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:45:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	As the Holocaust eyewitness story has it, the Germans had a
number of ways to cover up the extermination process.

	At Auschwitz a truck driver was ordered to start up his vehicle
and rev the motor to drown out the screams of the victims.

	At another, Chelmno, flocks of geese were kept around to gaggle
during the exterminations.

	At Majdanek, jazz music was played over an array of loud speakers
to cover up the sounds of gun fire. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 20 14:48:41 PDT 1996
Article: 164961 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <3275668d.6124961@199.0.216.204>
Control: cancel <3275668d.6124961@199.0.216.204>
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 20 14:48:43 PDT 1996
Article: 164965 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <32746688.6119853@199.0.216.204>
Control: cancel <32746688.6119853@199.0.216.204>
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 20 14:48:43 PDT 1996
Article: 165104 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <327f419b.7723828@199.0.216.204>
Control: cancel <327f419b.7723828@199.0.216.204>
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 20 14:57:12 PDT 1996
Article: 75970 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More Wayout Jewish Numbers
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:31:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 16
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>
>	                      L.A.Times
>                         Oct. 19, 1996
>
>	"Rabbi Urges Jews to Overcome Bias in Seeking Converts"
>
>"Judaism: In sermon to his synagogue,
>Rabbi Harold Schulweis ways the 
>notion of conversion is upsetting to 
>some Jews because they feel Judaism 
>is less ideology than a biology."


	The relevancy of this post to the Holocaust is that it
demonstrates the same practice for making extraordinary claims as
happens with Holocaust accounting.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Oct 20 18:20:47 PDT 1996
Article: 75974 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics
Subject: Re: Chutzpa = E X A G G E R A T I O N
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:39:00 GMT
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etst


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 07:03:09 PDT 1996
Article: 76139 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: U.S. Gives Israel BILLIONS every year from taxpayer-$$$$
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:07:58 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 27
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>  Up, up and away . . . !
>  In fact, recall that Pat "ANTISEMITE!"[tm] Buchanan correctly
>predicted that, after the Persian Gulf War -- in which U.S. troops
>were exposed to bio-chemical weapons -- was over, Israel would DEMAND
>financial compensation for allowing young Americans to fight inits
>place.

	Thirty billion was what they demanded. $30,000,000,000. Right in
front of the whole world. Intentional insult. An intentional act to
degrade. 

>  (Only recently, in fact has the U.S. government -- in the face of
>incontravertible evidence -- admitted that Ameican troops in desert
>Storm *were*, in fact, exposed to bio-chemical weapons. The media
>tried its best to hush this charge up for a long time, till it could
>do so no longer.)
>  Some racket, huh? 

	Only up to recently has there been any reports of any troops from
other countries having a similar ailment. The establishment
spokespeople, including some VA doctors will tell us none of the
twenty or so reported symptoms of the ailment are psychological, when
in fact every one of the symptoms can be shown to be connected to a
psychological origin.





From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 07:03:10 PDT 1996
Article: 76140 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Behold the lie
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:15:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>You forgot to add the following:
>
>World War II Magazine, November 1994 Issue cited
>4 million  killed at Auschwitz.
>
>Discovery Channel aired a documentary entitle:  Mengele,
>the Man and his Crimes, and a figure 4.5 million Jewish dead
>was given for Auschwitz.
>
>19 Stone Steles adorning Auschwitz concentration camp had
>the figure of 4,000,000 deaths at Auschwitz chiseled out from the
>stone in 1990.
>
>"The Pictorial history of the Jewish People" cites 4 million
>Jews killed at Auschwitz.  The book ran through more than 
>11 editions.
>
>New figures of the dead at Auschwitz, taken from archives
>in Moscow, indicate 70,000 deaths, 46,000 of them Jews.

	Thanks for the additional examples that Simon Wiesenthal is a
liar when he says the revision of Auschwitz numbers from 4 million
down to 1 million has nothing to do with the standing number of 6
million Jews killed in the Holocaust.	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 07:03:11 PDT 1996
Article: 76141 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Extermination cover up techniques
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:25:40 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>	As the Holocaust eyewitness story has it, the Germans had a
>>number of ways to cover up the extermination process.
>
>>	At Auschwitz a truck driver was ordered to start up his vehicle
>>and rev the motor to drown out the screams of the victims.
>
>>	At another, Chelmno, flocks of geese were kept around to gaggle
>>during the exterminations.
>
>>	At Majdanek, jazz music was played over an array of loud speakers
>>to cover up the sounds of gun fire. 
>
>Thank you for your faultless documentation, typical of deniers.

	I see that you find it offensive. The third example is in the
Soviet - Polish Extraordinary Commission report in Nizkor files. 

	The second example is in Nizkor files also.

	The first example could be in Nizkor, but I know it is one of the
following three. "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp", Hilberg or
Bauer.

	Thanks again for your expression you find the assertions
ridiculous.   


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 07:35:18 PDT 1996
Article: 101873 of alt.conspiracy
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: England to Enforce the Holocaust Lie
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:56:53 GMT
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>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>> 
>> >A Labour government will act to make Holocaust denial a criminal 
>> >offence, Opposition leaders pledged this week.
>> 
>> 	Why are the Jews so fanatically obsessed with keeping the story
>> as it is? What do they have to gain by it? Is it that they want it
>> known so the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice, like
>> they say, or is for the the billions that they have gotten, which is
>> the reality. 



>You'd think that the Jews are the only people that suffered in WWII, or in
>history for that matter. There's no justifying what happened to the Jews, 
>whatever it was, but a lot of people have had their lives destroyed by war.


>Why should the Jews have a monopoly on the word "holocaust"? 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Israel.


>Look it up in the dictionary and see what it says.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 09:23:05 PDT 1996
Article: 76148 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism"
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:39:59 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <32717bb7.3164668@199.0.216.204>
References: <32748238.2165692@199.0.216.204> <54cdeu$nvl@panix2.panix.com> <326d27bb.1100037@199.0.216.204> <54dilj$f3g@panix2.panix.com>
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Filan:
>	1) America didn't begin supporting Israel on a large scale until
>the Soviet Union armed the surrounding Arab countries.  And Britain was
>hardly a great fan of the Zionists back in 1948.  (Have you ever seen
>_Exodus_? While it's a Hollywood production, it accurately reflects the
>tensions between British officers and the Irgun.  Remember the bombing of
>the King David Hotel if you have any further doubts).

	Teh reason the Arabs turned tro the Soviets for help is because
of the U.S. arming the Jews. Its the chicken and the egg trick. Which
came first? 
	Up until the USSR turned away from communism the main propaganda
for U.S. support for Israel was because Israel was "A deterent to
Soviet influence in teh Mideast" (common vernacular).


>	2) Which "Jews" are constantly portraying themselves as victims of
>atrocities while at the same time creating them.  I know several Jews who
>don't obsess on the Holocaust -- hell, THEY talk about it a lot less than
>YOU do.

	Idiotic. The Holocaust is daily fare in and on our medias. It is
the Jews who carry full, quarter and half page ads on it. It is the
Jews who write all the letters to the editors and the columns. You say
you know some who "don't obsess".

>	3) Where is this "relentless" onslaught in our media.  Is there a
>"ZOG Channel" out there somewhere? And do people come into your house,
>strap you to your chair, and clip your eyes open ala the Ludovico
>Technique?

	Who needs a "ZOG Channel"? 

>>	Enter Netscape. Type in "Holocaust" and you will see plenty of
>>"Zionism". Type In "Holocaust" and you will see plenty of Israel. Type
>>in "Zionism" and you will see plenty of "Holocaust".
>
>	I'll try that when I'm using my girlfriend's SLIP account.  But I
>wouldn't be surprised.  Many of the people who lost relatives in the
>Holocaust are ardent Zionists.  Many of the founders of Israel were
>European Jews left refugees after World War II.  
>
>	You believe, I guess, that the Holocaust numbers were exaggerated.
>Where, may I ask you, are the Jews of Poland?  There were between 2.5 and
>3 million Jews in Poland in the 1930s.  There are a few thousand today.
>Where did the rest of them go?  (And if you say, "They emigrated to
>Russia, etc." I'm going to say "Show me a picture of a Polish Ashkenazi
>settlement in Russia."  If it's good enough for Mr. Raven, it ought to be
>good enough for me.)
>
>Peace
>Kevin Filan



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 09:23:06 PDT 1996
Article: 76149 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism"
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:41:29 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <32727d4f.3572212@199.0.216.204>
References: <32748238.2165692@199.0.216.204> <54cdeu$nvl@panix2.panix.com> <326d27bb.1100037@199.0.216.204> <54f6nq$l2c@is05.micron.net>
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>Whenever Jews are attacked individually, it is called "anti-Semitism" or attacking the
>entire race.  But when Jews commit atrocities in furtherance of Jewish interest, Jews
>claims that they were just "individual Jews" acting "by themselves." 

>It sort of like a chemical equation with an arrow only going one way.

>Kurt Stele

	Short and sweet.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 09:23:07 PDT 1996
Article: 76156 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B refute this deniers
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:53:16 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 8
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References: <32504704.4A33@rio.com> <52totc$rns@lex.zippo.com> <3253DC8A.67AE@rio.com> <535ksp$nnn@lex.zippo.com> <325687EF.2534@rio.com> <53h9de$gh7@lex.zippo.com>  <53mfk3$1j3@lex.zippo.com>  <545uta$gni@lex.zippo.com> 
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>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

"The war was over, Mr. Carpenter. Germany had surrendered long before
Ho"ss was captured and brought to trial. Long before Ho"ss wrote his
memoirs. Do try and keep up, Mr. Carpenter."

	"Long before"? Years, centuries, eons or was it months?


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 09:23:07 PDT 1996
Article: 76157 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A typical false eyewitness: Filip Muller, the plagiarist
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:59:58 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <327681ac.4689112@199.0.216.204>
References: <53ovn6$p03@Vir.com> <32637125.9912733@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <845312633snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  <326f2a9e.1838889@199.0.216.204> <54ds54$hjf@atlas.uniserve.com>
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>In <326f2a9e.1838889@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>wrote:
>
>>>A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk (Alexander Baron) writes:
>>>
>>>>> Evidently the jury was a lot less impressed by Christie's effort to
>>>>> entrap Hilberg into making an untenable statement than Mr. Beaulieu.
>>>>> Ernst Zuendel was, after all, convicted by *two* juries of spreading
>>>>> false news.
>>>
>>>>Tell the whole truth, John, he appealed all the way to the Supreme Court
>>>>and the verdict was overturned by a 4-3 ruling.
>>>
>>>Then you tell the whole truth as well. Did the Supreme Court's decision
>>>have anything to do with the credibility of Hilberg or any other witness,
>>>or wasn't it a judgement on the constitutionality of the law under which
>>>Zuendel was charged?
>
>>	The witnesses, including Hilberg, spoke. In the end, the cause
>>lost. 
>
>To some extent, Li'l Tommy you are almost right - for a changeZundel's
>"cause" did lose.  He did gain the publicity he was seeking but all it
>has garnered him is the attention and blind following of pathetic
>little societal misfits such as ... hmmm ... well, you are a very good
>example judging by your posts here.

	The word "cause" refers to the Jewish cause.


>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 09:23:08 PDT 1996
Article: 76159 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Hilary Ostrov
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:01:19 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 10
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To some extent, Li'l Tommy you are almost right - for a changeZundel's
"cause" did lose.  He did gain the publicity he was seeking but all it
has garnered him is the attention and blind following of pathetic
little societal misfits such as ... hmmm ... well, you are a very good
example judging by your posts here.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov            


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 09:23:09 PDT 1996
Article: 76164 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The twelve year grace period
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:04:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>	
>              The Twelve Year Grace Period
>             ==============================
>		In with the new books, away with the old.
>
>	              Random House Dictionary,
> "grace" - "6. favor shown in granting a delay or temporary immunity".
>
>========================================================================
>		
>	According to some accounts, the reason the previous numbers of
>those said to have been exterminated at Auschwitz was 3 million higher
>than the current 1 million is because the Soviets mis-calculated the
>numbers of people that could be cremated in the ovens.
>
>	How the Soviets went about this ciphering that resulted in a 300
>percent over estimate is not detailed in Holocaust accounts.
>
>	Another account of why the old number was so far off is because
>of the intentional conniving on the part of the Poles and Soviets to
>inflate Polish casualties so as to deflate Jewish causalities, or
>something like that. (The full ride down the bumpy dirt road can be
>found on the Simon Wiesenthal web page.)
>
>	If we should accept either excuse, mis-calculation or intentional
>lie, we are led to wonder about other things.
>
>	First we would have to recognize that these are the official
>Holocaust accounts and that they are the only ways they came up with
>the 4 million number, in lieu of anything else.
>
>	There are two other factors that played a role in Auschwitz
>numerology. 
>
>	One is by way of "eyewitness" accounts and the other is pre end
>of war rumors that were going around with some of them being reported
>in major medias.
>
>	The eye witness accounts given immediately at the time of the
>liberation of the camps were by a couple of Jewish inmates. The most
>cited eyewitness authority for the numbers came from Rudolph Ho'ss
>former Auschwitz camp commandant and still a star witness for the
>Holocaust story who said there were up to 3 million people killed at
>the camp. We have to recognize that since the current number is 2
>million less than what the star Holocaust witness said, then either
>the current number is wrong or the star witness was wrong, or lying.
>
>	The other pre end of war accounts, which we may consider to be
>the seed rumors that set the atmosphere for the subsequent gross
>exaggerations, can be traced to those originating and spread from
>Jewish organizations. 
>	All kinds of numbers and methods were alleged, none of which,
>understandably, is presented by the current Holocaust promotional
>network at this time. We can recognize the Holocaust promotional
>network not using these sources as their admission that their rumors
>were not truths and would only tend to expose the absolute origin from
>which the gross exaggerations emanated.
>
>	So in a pure research sequence we have to recognize there are the
>two basic claims as to why the number was 4 million in the first
>place. The incredibly wayward Soviet mathematics as put forth by say,
>Nizkor, "The 4 Million Variant" and their source for that, or the
>intentional juggling by the Soviets and Poles as claimed by the Simon
>Wiesenthal Center.
>
>	Since either one of these is the basic statement on the old
>Auschwitz number, we have to recognize there was nothing else, say as
>an actual body count, records or forensic investigations from which to
>deduce any numbers. 
>
>	All this would suggest that whatever numbers they had then, and
>were submitted to Nuremberg or any other trials, were founded on real
>shaky grounds, but nevertheless offered as evidence to hang men. 
>
>	Not until around 1980 did the numbers come to be what they
>currently are. The new numbers are founded on the "interpretations" of
>deportation records and rail manifests with the specific criteria
>that no eyewitness accounts, commission reports or confessions by
>Germans were to be trusted or used in the new figuring. Also
>explicitly cited are any court records, which would include
>Nuremberg's, which shows that they are recognized as lies.
>
>	Is there anything 'funny' about this 'new' number, as it is
>obvious there was with the old one? Well this would involve the
>investigation of the records used and the consideration of any
>interpreting logic. Will all this ever become available to researchers
>who may have suspicions? We can only wait and see.
>
>	The one thing we can conclude as to any shenanigans is that the
>'new' numbers are not all that new. They are said to have been arrived
>at, starting in 1980 and completed in 1986, showing that the
>suspicions for the old numbers was recognized in 1980. Not until the
>last three years or so did any formal announcement of the current
>revised number take place, leaving a gap of about 12 years between the
>time of arriving at the current number and the official announcement.
>During this time the sign outside of the Auschwitz camp citing
>4,000,000 people were exterminated was allowed to remain at 4,000,000.
>Not only this, but the old number of 4 million was allowed to be cited
>hundreds, if not thousands of times in the world's medias during this
>12 year span without any parties knowledgable to the revision coming
>forth to correct the rampant use of the old number.
>	 
>	So who would have known about the revisions?
>
>	An easy resource to check is almost any public library. Here we
>will find in the catalogs numerous books on the Holocaust, most of
>which were written from 1980 on. In fact, it is very hard to find any
>books on the Holocaust written before that time. Either we assume
>there were no books on the Holocaust written before 1980 or that there
>were and they have found their way off the shelves.
>
>	We would have to consider the likely hood that any books written
>before the massive revision to the Auschwitz numbers would have
>accounts of numbers with the old 4,000,000 number as a part of the
>whole accounting. Regardless of whether or not any of the previous
>books are available, numerous documentation is available, as to
>sources, that allege that a significant number of the old, now deleted
>number of 4,000,000 were Jewish. In spite of what the Simon Wiesenthal
>Center claims, that the number of 6,000,000 Jews said to have been
>killed during the war was never contingent on the old 4,000,000, the
>documented facts, not readily available now in the libraries,
>challenges this severely. The numerous older accounts can have it that
>from 2,000,000 to 4,000,000 of the victims at Auschwitz were Jews.
>	Perhaps the only book that was written before 1980 that held to a
>smaller number was one by Reitlinger, who cited a number close to the
>current number. This book is referred to by the defenders of all
>things true Holocaust in attempts at drawing attention away from the
>20 or 30 other sources that cite significantly higher figures.  
>	Six million is the standing figure as to the number of Jews said
>to have been exterminated during WW II. This has pretty much been the
>figure all along. We would have to recognize that any books written on
>the Holocaust before or after 1980 must strive to give the full
>account including other camps and any exterminations said to have
>taken place in the 'field' so that the culminating figure is
>6,000,000. If books are written that claim, say, 2,300,000, 3,000,000
>or 3,500,000 Jews were killed at Auschwitz, then any numbers given for
>other places must be jostled around so that when it is all put
>together the figure ends up at 6,000,000. Thus any books written using
>the 1,000,000 figure must do their ciphering considering that, which
>would throw them into serious conflict with the older accounts.
>
>	So, in 1980 along comes the problem of the massive revision to
>the Holocaust root number of Auschwitz, from 4,000,000 down to
>1,000,000. Then, also starting around 1980 we have a whole onslaught
>of new books that came out with most of them giving accounts that
>agree with the new number. The new number that wasn't officially
>released until 1993. 
>
>	Is it a fantastic coincidence that the new Auschwitz numbers were
>arrived at around 1980 and a whole slue of new books appeared around
>the same time? 
>
>	Was it just an oversight that kept the old number of 4,000,000 up
>on the sign at Auschwitz and the new current number from being
>released at that time it was arrived at?
>
>	And who would have been privy to knowing about all this revision
>at the time?
>
>	Putting all the pieces together, it appears a righteous
>accommodating grace period was given to the Jews so they would have
>time to reorganize Holocaust accounts that would be more in line with
>the new figures, and that is what is on the library shelves at this
>time.
>
>	A pathetically corrupt state of affairs.
>
>
>========================================================================
>	No wonder the Jews exert so much energy in trying to snuff out
>open debate on the truth or falsity of the Holocaust, opting instead
>to condemn the whole thing as an act of "hate", "racism", "neo-Nazism"
>and/or "anti-Semitism". 
>========================================================================



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 09:23:10 PDT 1996
Article: 76172 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: ADL, the "reliable source" for the  "truth"
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 15:02:54 GMT
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	                       N.Y.Times
                          Oct. 21, 1996
                        (Quarter page ad)
	
	    Below a picture of an American flag at half mast.

	    "Terrorists Are Keeping Our Flags At Half Mast.
                 What Can We Do To Stop Them?" 

	The ad goes on to list some terrorist acts. Beruit, Pan Am 103,
World Trade Center, Oklahoma City, Saudi Arabia.

	[Of course all the acts above, less Oklahoma City perhaps, have
been carried out against the U.S. because of it's unconditional aid
and abetting Zionist activities.]

  "Four out of ten terrorist acts worldwide are being carried out
against Americans. Even within our own shores. Terrorist acts are
difficult to prevent, especially in a free society like ours. But
there are things we can do to prevent them and punish those who commit
such cowardly acts."

	[The line "... especially in a free society like ours." is a
common denominator in the Jewish propaganda to exploit these
disasters, that have been brought on by our unconditional support of
all things Jewish. The free society is the culprit.]

  "Here are some of the ways to help.
  "1. Write letters to government officials, editors of newspapers,
magazines, TV and radio stations to express your support of strong
anti-terrorism legislation that empowers our law-enforcement agencies
with every appropriate means."

	[And who introduces these "appropriate means" and what are they?]
Well people like Schumer from N.Y., Leiberman, Conn., Simon
Wiesenthal, A.M.Rosenthal, the ADL. "Measures"? Open wire taps,
bypassing or rewriting Constitutional clauses, all the things that was
included in the Omnibus Counter-terrorism Act, introduced and heavily
endorsed by Jewish organizations and individuals.
	All the recommendations the ADL suggests here are extensively
used and given accomodation for the Jews. Massive letter and phone
campaigns, expressing the foot stompin, selfrighteous, outraged
indignation.]

  "2. Write and call talk shows where hate, bigotry, racism and
violence are voiced. Tell them how un-American it is."

	["Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism". That is the real concern here.
"Un-American". These people don't care about anything American.]

  "3. Report hate crime information you discover to law enforcement
officials."

	[Especially anything against Jews.]

  "4. Talk with friends, family, co-workers and your childrens
teachers to educate them to the dangers of terrorism and extremism of
all types. Ask us for helpful information."

	[This is the only place where people can ask for "help" since it
is only the Jews who are pressing the urgency of "terrorism" above all
other things. This is the documented facts. No one else, excepting the
lackies in Congress.]

  "5. Do not take freedom for granted. Seek the truth. Don't accept
rumors and half truths from right-wing and fanatical hate literature.
Find out from reliable sources what bigots and paramilitary
organizations spread as fact."

	Then we are offered an image of two pamphlets, one reading,
"Terrorism - update" and the other "Beyond the BOMBING".

	"For these pamphlets and a materials brochure, call 212-885-7774
or check www.adl.org."

	This is where you will get the "reliable sources" for the
"truth".      	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 10:27:25 PDT 1996
Article: 165287 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 10:27:27 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 10:27:27 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 10:27:28 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 10:27:29 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 10:27:30 PDT 1996
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From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 21 16:26:49 PDT 1996
Article: 76233 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 25 FAQ re Irish Potato Holocaust History Revisionism
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:04:10 GMT
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	Generally I, Moran, don't relate to being Irish, preferring the
motto if it should come up, 'Look brother, I'm not white, I'm not
Irish and I'm not an American, I'm a free agent in the universe'.

	For this particular 'Potaotoe Holocaust' I Moran, am going to get
a list of as many patty organizations as I can and send my complaints,
and try to roust them to protest this degrading developement of
forcing this crap on our kids.

	I prefer to leave it up to the Jews to whine over their past. Let
them continue to stand out as the only ones in the world that do the
eternal and constant gnashing of teeth and wrenching of garments.

	Dear Patties,
            ....................


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 22 07:41:25 PDT 1996
Article: 76272 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Declaration Of Deficiency
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:32:38 GMT
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>In article <32758246.2179918@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>wrote:
>
>>                 
>>         They who refuse to debate, oppose debate or stifle debate,
>> declare they don't have the will, the substance or the guts to meet
>> the challenge. It is a sign of cowardice.
>
>
>Mr Moran:
> 
>As soon as you have something intelligent to say, I'll be more than happy
>to debate with you.
> 
>But since all that comes from you is hate-filled, stereotypical racism,
>there's nothing WORTH debating.
> 
>Sara


	Who said anything about debating with you? I don't care what you
say, and I'm not concerned with convincing you of anything. You are
insignificant. 
>-- 
>"I do not mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy."
>                 Samuel Butler
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 22 09:37:23 PDT 1996
Article: 76347 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL, the "reliable source" for the  "truth"
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:34:05 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>					
>	                       N.Y.Times
>                          Oct. 21, 1996
>                        (Quarter page ad)
>	
>	    Below a picture of an American flag at half mast.
>
>	    "Terrorists Are Keeping Our Flags At Half Mast.
>                 What Can We Do To Stop Them?" 
>
>	The ad goes on to list some terrorist acts. Beruit, Pan Am 103,
>World Trade Center, Oklahoma City, Saudi Arabia.

	"Keeping" our flags at half mast.

Beruit? - about fifteen or more years ago.

World Trade Center? - Three, four years ago.

Oklahoma City? - Two years ago.

Saudia Arabia? - Recently.

	Hardly a history for the statement that our flags are at a
constant state of being at half mast.

	Now if we lived in Lebanon, or the West Bank or Gaza, that would
be a good statement.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 22 09:37:24 PDT 1996
Article: 76350 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.conspiracy,alt.christnet,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,alt.activism
Subject: Re: Tolerance: War Against Whites
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:34:22 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:47271 alt.conspiracy:102166 alt.christnet:116828 alt.revisionism:76350 alt.religion.christian:139602 alt.activism:86102

                           
>Now at GOAL Reference Library: http://www.nilenet.com/~tmw/

	I checked this site and clicked up a "436 Quotes". It is a
whopper. If everyone in the world suddenly came to know this, ???.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 22 09:37:25 PDT 1996
Article: 76352 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Behold the lie
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:43:56 GMT
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>rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>
># New figures of the dead at Auschwitz, taken from archives
># in Moscow, indicate 70,000 deaths, 46,000 of them Jews.
>
>How odd, especially since the Frank-Gricksch report, written
>in mid-1943, states that 500,000 Jews were already killed
>in the camp.
>
>It was explained to you dozens of times that not only are
>these death lists partial, they only cover those who died
>after being admitted into the camp and given a serial
>number. Those who were selected as "unfit for work", and
>murdered upon arrival, were not given a serial number
>and their names were not written down; it would have
>been a complete waste of time to write down the name
>of someone who was going to be dead in an hour or so,
>and to tattoo him/her with a serial number.
>
>Is it *so* difficult to understand?
>
>
>-Danny Keren.

	Post the report so Moran can tear into it.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 22 09:37:26 PDT 1996
Article: 76353 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Declaration Of Deficiency
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:47:16 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <3270d00a.1118932@199.0.216.204>
References: <32758246.2179918@199.0.216.204>  <326d23a5.9588257@199.0.216.204> 
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>In article <326d23a5.9588257@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>wrote:
>
>> >In article <32758246.2179918@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >>                 
>> >>         They who refuse to debate, oppose debate or stifle debate,
>> >> declare they don't have the will, the substance or the guts to meet
>> >> the challenge. It is a sign of cowardice.
>> >
>> >
>> >Mr Moran:
>> > 
>> >As soon as you have something intelligent to say, I'll be more than happy
>> >to debate with you.
>> > 
>> >But since all that comes from you is hate-filled, stereotypical racism,
>> >there's nothing WORTH debating.
>> > 
>> >Sara
>> 
>> 
>> Who said anything about debating with you? I don't care what you
>> say, and I'm not concerned with convincing you of anything. You are
>> insignificant. 
>
>So sayeth Mr. Insignificant himself! LOL!
>
>The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
>blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
>The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
>intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
>taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
>of this, please refer to:
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom
>
>But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
>beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
>Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
>evidence of this please see:
>
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-beliefs.960704
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/intellectual-depravity
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq
>
>Mark

	This is trouble. He has posted a list of URLs. Moran is done for.
How can he argue against a URL? Their too awesome. 

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 22 09:37:26 PDT 1996
Article: 76357 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:51:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <3272d0e3.1335666@199.0.216.204>
References: <326e8088.1733652@199.0.216.204> <54hn4d$dkg@access5.digex.net>
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>    Tommy, why don't you save people time and trouble and put that title
>("Behold the lie") on all your posts which contain your own writing?  It
>describes them so well. 

	As a matter of fact, I plan to add a whole host of other examples
that show Simon Wiesenthal and the rest are liars and corrupt. 


>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.

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