From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Nov  3 08:09:27 PST 1996
Article: 78360 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Guns for Tots
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 16:40:25 GMT
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	                 Philadelphia Enquirer
                           Nov. 1, 1996

	"Israel to make it easier for its citizens to legally carry gun"

	Interesting. Jews and Jewish organizations in the U.S. being the
foremost proponents for gun control in this country and for Israel it
is the reverse. Of course the Jews would argue their special
circumstances for the right of their brethren in the occupied
territories to bear arms. After all, there are those little
Palestinian kids who throw rocks and it becomes necessary to shoot
them from time to time, according to Jewish logic.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Nov  3 08:09:28 PST 1996
Article: 78361 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Swiss $$,$$$,$$$, the Continuing Quest
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 18:06:26 GMT
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		"Swiss Envoy Vows Action On Old 'Holocaust Funds'"
                       N.Y. Times, Nov.2, 1996

	"Washington, Nov. 1 -- The Swiss Ambassador to the United States,
concerned that his country's reputation could be harmed by the growing
disputes over unclaimed accounts of Holocaust victims, offered
assurances today that Switzerland would give full restitution to
'anyone with a legitimate claim to get their money back'.

	....

	....

	Switzerland has come under mounting criticism -- particularly
>from  the World Jewish Congress and from Senator Alfonso D'Amato -- for
moving too slowly to uncover the accounts or disclose the Swiss
banking system's links to Nazi Germany.

[The "mounting criticism" we can bet comes from the Jews and not any
other nation lest certain parties in the U.S. who have a history of
pressing Jewish interests, like Sen. Alfonso D'Amato.]

	Earlier this week the World Jewish Congress said that after
'2,000 inquiries and 1,000 claims', the Swiss ombudsman appointed as a
go-between with the banks 'has returned not a cent'.

["1,000 claims"? This is the Jewish procedure. To try to so overwhelm
the system that it begs relief by submitting. Evidently the Jews think
all they should have to do is make the claims and the banks should pay
up. How the Jews have come up with 2,000 inquiries and 1,000 claims in
the short period since this whole extortion scheme began shows how
active and extensive the networking is within the Jewish community.]

	'He has rejected every claimant for a year' the Congress said.
'This is cruel farce perpetuated on Holocaust survivors by the Swiss
banking industry'.

[A "cruel farce"? The sentence would be more accurate if it had said,
'This is a cruel farce perpetuated on the Swiss banking industry by
the Holocaust survivors'.]

	....

	At a news conference earlier this week and again in the interview
today, Mr. Jagmetti disputed reports that the Government had tapped
the accounts to settle Swiss businesses' claims arising from the
Communists' seizure of assets in eastern Europe. Those claims were
settled through later trade deals, he said. 

[There's an angle. We can bet this originated from the Jewish logic.]

	....

	....

	It will not be an easy search. Many accounts were opened under
fictitious names or in the names of third parties. Some account
information is believed to have been destroyed. And while the banks
have vowed to co-operate, there are suspicions among some on the
Volcker commission that the banks may recoil when the investigation
delves into any evidence that the banks failed in their legal duties
to their depositors."

[As to "... suspicions among some on the Volcker commission ..." it is
likely the Commission is manned mainly by Jews. Poor Mr.Volcker, by
the time this thing has run it's course, hbne will be nuts. How the
Jews have come up with 2,000 inquiries and 1,000 claims in the short
period since this whole extortion scheme began shows how active the
networking is within the Jewish community. We can bet the Jews will be
wanting anything that can be shown not to have a definite source. 'Oh,
look. This one is uncertain therefore it should go to us.']


	
	We could bet there are some real wacky assertions being made. The
Jewish thinking is the more the bizarre and the more the more, the
harder it is to deal with it and the target will just give in to get
rid of them. But, it doesn't seem to be the case with the Swiss. They
are not going to give whatever the Jews want. At most, when things are
all said and done, perhaps no more than a few million will be given
since thorough audits have already been made and paid out. 
	The fact that the Swiss "go-between" has rejected every claim so
far implies how ridiculous the claims are.] 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Nov  3 08:09:30 PST 1996
Article: 78367 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Guns for Tots
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 14:11:54 GMT
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>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  	
>>  	                 Philadelphia Enquirer
>>  	                         Nov. 1, 1996
>
>>  	"Israel to make it easier for its citizens to legally carry gun"
>  
>>  	Interesting. Jews and Jewish organizations in the U.S. being the
>>  foremost proponents for gun control in this country and for Israel it
>>  is the reverse. Of course the Jews would argue their special
>>  circumstances for the right of their brethren in the occupied
>>  territories to bear arms. After all, there are those little
>>  Palestinian kids who throw rocks and it becomes necessary to shoot
>>  them from time to time, according to Jewish logic.
>
>	The name of the newspaper is the "Philadelphia Inquirer"  If Moran -- a 
>liar and an anti-Semite -- can't ge that right, how can the rest of his fantasies and 
>interpretations be trusted?
>
>	--YFE

	Correction: Philadelphia Inquirer. Okay, now that has been
settled we can carry on.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Nov  3 08:09:31 PST 1996
Article: 78371 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MESSAGE TO MCVAY
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 14:07:16 GMT
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test


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Nov  3 11:18:48 PST 1996
Article: 78377 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Evil Swiss barrage continues
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 17:01:12 GMT
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	November 3, 1996, the double wammy.

	In the L.A.Times:

 	"Long After War, Taint of Nazis Remains in Europe"

"In ancient times, the most effective laundry bleach was produced from
human wastes. The Emperor Tiberius held a monopoly on the collection
and processing of sewage used in this process.
	Aren't you ashamed, he was once asked, to be involved in such a
smelly business?
	Not at all, the emperor replied, "The money doesn't smell".
	Tiberius should have been a Swiss banker, or maybe a French
politician. Forget Whitewater and Lippogate. The biggest and ugliest
scandal in postwar Western history is spreading across Europe,
engulfing governments, banks and prominent people in sordid intrigues
connected to Adolph Hitler's war against the Jews. One by one, the
cans of worms are opening all over Europe.
	The Swiss have been reeling from a series of disclosures and
allegations. Not only did the Swiss refuse to help the heirs of
Holocaust victims regain possession of family assets after the war;
during the war, Swiss banks eagerly collaborated with top Nazis
attempting to smuggle ill-gotten gains abroad.
	Billions of dollars of Jewish gold - including, possibly, gold
fillings pulled from the jaws of Holocaust victims in Nazi death
camps.
	...
	...
	The Swiss have been getting most of the Holocaust headlines
lately, but Switzerland isn't alone. The shame is spreading all over
Europe."


	The article then goes on to cite all the other guilty parties,
The Austrian government, French President Chirac for his son living in
a building said to have been confiscated from Jews during the war,
Portugal who are said to have used looted Jewish gold to buy coal from
the Poles, and Russia for joining the German blitzkrieg. Not to
exclude the United States either. 

===========================================================================

	Then there is the one in the N.Y.Times:

		"Wars Plunder and the Swiss"

		"The New Old News of Nazi Loot"

	This one shows a photo of two hands holding some "Gold wedding
bands" over a box of still more rings. Evidently this gold did not
make it to the Swiss banks as other gold mentioned found at Auschwitz.

	This article focuses on why the Jews hadn't gone after the Swiss
banks before, with the main reason being they were too busy tracking
down Nazi war criminals. The article also cites the collapse of
communism as another reason, a alibi cited in other articles, without
giving us a reason why this would have any bearing.

	The article winds up with:

 	"Still, some progress has already been made. Even before agreeing
to an outside audit, Swiss banks said they had found 774 accounts
totaling about 32 million, a figure rejected by Jewish groups as
absurdly low.
	Mr.Singer said his group and others would not be satisfied until
they have a full accounting of all the property stolen from Holocaust
victims.
	'This is the last unfinished business of the Holocaust', he said.
'It is time to draw a black line at the bottom and finalize these
accounts'".

	Of course if the Jews don't get billions, then it will never be
closed. This is what the Holocaust obsession is all about. $$$$$$$$$$$



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Nov  3 16:37:15 PST 1996
Article: 179378 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: cmsg cancel <3280a494.1969171@199.0.216.204>
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From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov  4 06:14:35 PST 1996
Article: 78438 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More Wayout Jewish Numbers
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 14:30:18 GMT
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>In article <328fba4a.7526427@199.0.216.204>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>	Here we have the rabbi denigrating other religions as pointed out
>>in the original post.
>>	There are many more examples of Jews denigrating Christianity and
>>as usual one comes out to give the illusion 'Jews to the rescue' as
>>reported in the L.A.Times, Nov.3, 1996.
>
>What relevance does this have to the Holocaust, tom?

	I see you had deleted the ending to comment on. The part about
the Saudi "lobbyists" which I found no relevance to the rest of the
article or at least the beginning topic but turned into a propaganda
ploy. Next time I post this article, I'm going to post the whole thing
which is totally meandering with a certain anti-Islamic flair leading
up to the finale about the Saudis.
	The nature of the article is apparent to one who has witnessed
similar ploys over the years.

	The relevance to the Holocaust story is to show an example of
intrigues, writing 'between the lines', the same kind of stuff you can
find in Holocaust books. The multi-level planes of double speak. It is
funny the writers think they are pulling something over, when in fact
many recognize the practices.

				        Summary

	The article starts off with a premise of "Persecution of
Christians abroad" only to immediately go into the topic of "trade or
campaign donors", hits on evil Islam along the way and ends up with
the quote about the "Saudi lobbyists" and their "allies in the Chamber
of Commerce", by David Horowitz, who the writer Pinkerton found it
necessary to identify as "an American Jew". 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov  4 16:21:25 PST 1996
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <327e7d35.1817303@199.0.216.204>
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From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov  5 06:58:56 PST 1996
Article: 78516 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Schools for Murder
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 14:53:34 GMT
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>Archive/File: holocaust/euthansia program.04
>Last-Modified: 1994/06/02
>
>"The mass killings by shooting proved cumbersome and expensive. Too many
>people were needed to shoot 33,711 Jews on September 29 and 30, 1941, at
>Babi Yar near Kiev. Eventually, close to 100,000 corpses filled that
>ravine, mostly of Jews, but also of partisans and saboteurs. ...

	One hundred thousand people killed and dumped in a revine, but
not one single cubic foot of forensic evidence. Further, revines are
subject to erosion. Babi Yar is an erosional cut. Therefore there
should be some kind of evidence exposed from one year to the next at
the surface. Subtract 100,000 from 100,000 and you will get teh real
number of people killed at Babi Yar. 

>(Still, Treblinka would not be outdone and turned `Jews into
>ashes at the rate of over 25,000 per day.') <44> The highest Auschwitz
>record allegedly was 34,000 Jews and others gassed within twenty-four hours
>during the `height of the season' in the summer of 1944, when 400,000
>Hungarian Jews were annihilated. <45>"

	I N C R E D I B L E. "25,000" people a day killed and cremated at
Section III in Treblinka, which is said to have been only about 7
acres. There should be plenty of evidence, to this day, but nay, none
is saught, and none has been found. 

	Right in the apex between three Polish cities, within the grounds
of a camp with 100,000 prisoners, with 1,000 civilians working and
coming within the workings of the camp, 34,000 people killed and
cremated. 
	The gas chambers are said to have had capacities of 1,000 each.
There are said to have been 4 chambers, which would mean the Germans
would have had to do the procedure at least 8 times in each chamber.

	Back to bed McVay.  

><39> Wiesenthal, Simon. The Murderers Among Us. pp. 310-12
><40> Ibid., p.318
><41> Infield, Glenn B. Skorzeny, Hitler's Commando. p. 229
><42> Gilbert, Martin. The Holocaust, Maps & Photographs. p.16 
><43> Marrus, Michael R. and Paxton, Robert. O. Vichy France and the Jews.
><44> Ferencz, Benjamin. Less Than Slaves: Jewish Forced Labor and the
>     Quest for Compensation. pp. 19-20
><45> Hoess, Rudolf. Commandant of Auschwitz. 
>
>Extracted from------------------------------------------------------------
>"WOMEN IN THE RESISTANCE AND IN THE HOLOCAUST: THE VOICES OF EYEWITNESSES"
>Edited (and with introduction) by Vera Laska. Greenwood Press, Westport &
>London, 1983. LOC 82-12018, ISBN 0-313-23457-4 pp. 13-15
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>"In his cell that evening [Ed. note: after the screening of a concentration
>camp film at the Nuremberg trials. knm] [Hans] Fritzsche exclaimed: `No
>power in heaven or earth will erase this shame from my country -- not in
>generations -- not in centuries!' [Hans] Frank, similarly emotional, burst
>out: `To think we lived like kings and believed in that beast! Don't let
>anybody tell you they had no idea! Everybody sensed that there was something
>horribly wrong with this system, even if we didn't know all the details.
>They didn't want to know! It was too comfortable to live on the system, to
>support our families in royal style, and to belive that it was all right.
>May God have mercy on our souls!'" [Conot: Judgement at Nuremberg]
>
>         === The Old Frog's Almanac, Vancouver Island, Canada ===
>
>--
>The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Southwestern Research Center               http://www.nizkor.org/
>                 Now offering the OSS Hitler Papers 
>    http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hitler-adolf/oss-papers/



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov  5 06:58:57 PST 1996
Article: 78538 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More Wayout Claims From Moran
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 14:05:59 GMT
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Mr.Edeiken:
>(tom moran) makes an idiot of himself again:

Mr.Edeiken:
>>  Michael Grant, one of the most widely read historians of that period, states in 
>>"The Jews in the Roman World"  (1973):  "Numerically taken over the whole earth 
>>they [the Jews] were fewer in those days than they are now -- perhaps eight million 
>>as against fourteen million today.  But no less than seven of these eight million were 
>>in the Roman empire where they constituted between six and nine per cent of the 
>>population -- in the eastern provinces, the percentage was perhaps as high as 
>>twenty." (page vii)


Moran: 
>	"page vii"? A introduction page? Does it have anything to show
>how the number was arrived at?  


>	You can see right here with Mr.Edeiken's page reference, "vii"
>that the claim got nothing more than a mention in a intro page, or a
>bibliography reference or an appendix number.


>	Perhaps Mr.Edeiken will give us an expansion on what in the book
>this "page vii" refers to, and present whatever documentation there
>is.

	What? No further comment on "page vii" from Mr. Edeiken?
Evidently Mr.Edeiken tried to bluff.

	Yea, yea. Now that it is a couple of weeks after the fact, and
Moran has called Mr.Edeiken on his bluff, he will come back to say
Moran should do his own research, but Moran isn't the only one out
here, and one could believe Mr.Edeiken would have taken the
opportunity to offer up, at least, whatever "page vii" had to say, in
order to show his stuff.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov  5 06:58:58 PST 1996
Article: 78553 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from AUSCHWITZ Camp
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 14:05:51 GMT
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>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/
>
>furnace-capacity.jpg
>Letter from Jahrling to Kammler, stating that the combined
>crematoriums in Auschwitz-Birkenau can cremate 4,756 corpses
>in 24 working hours.

	The maximum number of bodies that can be cremated in modern day
crematorium ovens is less than 10 in a twenty four hour period as
opposed to the 100 a day per oven for Auschwitz crematoriums.
	The letter cited above, presented in German by Nizkor, is
obviously a forgery, since it would be unrealistic to assume any
German party would make such wild claims in an official
correspondence.
	Why Nizkor doesn't just present the text of the letter,
translated in English, and save people from having to go through the
extended tiresome process of downloading a graphic is to sell the
reader on the idea it is really authentic. 
	

>Vergasungskeller.jpg
>Document mentioning the "gassing cellar" in Krema II in
>Birkenau.

	This letter could very well be authentic. The term
"vergasungskeller" seems to have a lot of controversy about it from
it's definition to the term's exclusive appearance in this document,
and, which of three skellers was the vergasungskeller. In spite of all
this, it is possible/probable the Germans figured in a delousing
contingency into their plans for Krema II, having learned a lesson
>from  an extensive outbreak of Typhus caused by lice. 


>Gas_Detector.jpg
>Letter asking to deliver detectors for cyanide gas to
>crematorium in Birkenau.

	Of four crematoriums at Birkenau, we have one letter referring to
one Krema. If the "vergsungskeller" was set up for contingency
fumigation then it would necessitate the need for detection equipment.

>Krema4.jpg
>Crematorium no. 4 in Birkenau.

	Picture of building. Probably had some crematoria function.
Still, only a building with nothing to prove it was what the Holocaust
story says it was.

>krema5-01.jpg
>Crematorium no. 5 in Birkenau.

	Ditto.

>auschwitz03.jpg, auschwitz04.jpg
>Murdered inmates in Auschwitz-Birkenau.

	This picture would have no documentation to prove the people were
murdered, or if it was even taken at Auschwitz. 

>auschwitz05.jpg
>Young Polish children imprisoned in Auschwitz.

	Young kids behind barbed wire fence.

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/mengele.josef/
>images/Mengele.jpg
>Gypsy children, tortured by SS doctor Mengele during his
>"medical experiments" in Auschwitz.

	Most likely emaciated kids found at one of German camps at the
end of the war.

>Gaskammern.jpg
>Construction document which mentions a "gas chamber"
>(Gaskammer) in Krema no. 5 in Birkenau.

	Another fortunate document for the Holocaust story. Will the lay
researcher ever have access to verifying it's authenticity? Who knows.


>burning-pit.jpg
>Corpses of victims killed in the gas chambers are burned
>outside of Krema no. 5. Photograph taken in the summer of
>1944, when the Hungarian Jews were murdered at such a rate
>that the cremation furnaces could not handle the number
>of corpses.

	This is the photo that is claimed to show cremations just behind
the Krema V, a claim that is totally destroyed by aerial photographs.
This photograph was probably taken at one of the camps on German soil
at the end of the war. 

>Furnace.jpg
>Cremation furnaces in a Birknenau crematorium.

	A row of fifteen or so ovens. Could have been actual cremation
chambers. The fact that there are as many as there are, suggests they
well built for contingencies, to be used one, two or even all at a
time if necessary. If the Germans had really built facilities to
dispose of victims of mass extermination they would have built
something capable of mass cremation, not just small individual ovens.

	

>-Danny Keren.

>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov  5 17:45:18 PST 1996
Article: 78576 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: England to Enforce the Holocaust Lie
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 14:52:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <32815466.1737003@199.0.216.204>
References: <846407859snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <550aop$nea@news.enter.net> <55219n$1t@is05.micron.net>  <55kghf$npo@is05.micron.net> 
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><*[*] [*] [Kurt Stele] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Re: England to Enforce the Holocaust Lie] [04 Nov 96 05:39][*][0]*>
>
>
> KS> I do not mind you quoting some of my best stuff but you still
> KS> have not refuted that Jewish representation in manual labor and
> KS> blue collars jobs is the lowest of any group.

	When the hands do something they are directed by the mind.


>Nope!
>
>++GMAIL 1.3++ We're laughing at you.
>--
>|Fidonet:  Alec Grynspan 1:2424/13
>|Internet: alec@gryn.org
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov  5 17:45:18 PST 1996
Article: 78589 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Freezing/Death/Freedom/Suppression
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 14:44:52 GMT
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	Moran had recently gone bye, bye. To points east. One of which
was Pennsylvania, where he visited Valley Forge, the winter camp of
the Continental Army of George Washington.

	While there Moran wondered into the Park's book shop, where he
proceeded to buy a few books, one of which was a small
semi-illustrated diary account of what took place at the site between
Dec. 20, 1777 and May 16, 1778.

	Herein is a summary.

	The beginning -

"Saturday, Dec. 20, 1777	

	The wind is cold and piercing here at Valley Forge. We are about
twenty miles northwest of Philidelphia--which fell to the enemy in
September. This is a bleak and lonely place ...
	Since our defeat by the British at Germantown in October, our
situation has become steadily worse. ...
	Early yesterday we left Gulph Mills for our winter quarters here
in Valley Forge. The march was difficult one, and I do not think that
I, Corporal Toby Grimes, could have endured another moment of that
journey. ... Few had the energy to put up a tent or shelter.
	For some weeks, this army has awaited the arrival of provisions.
We need both food and clothing. ... My men are dressed in rags, and
only a few are lucky enough to have shoes. ...
	
December 22, 1777

	It is still bitter and cold. George Washington says our most
urgent need is shelter. ... Today we began cutting the logs we will
use to build our shelters.

December 26, 1777

	The snow is now to our ankles. More men fall sick every day, and
their moans can be heard in the cold, dark night. ... Were it not for
George Washington, we would surely lose heart. He endures the same
conditions we suffer. What he can bear, we can bear, too. Surely with
such a leader we can not fail.

January 1, 1778

	The New Year brings little warmth or cheer with it. ... 
	There is much typhus and smallpox in the camp, and the doctors

are inoculating as many soldiers as possible every day. ...
	When will supplies come? We still need clothing, soap  to wash
with, more than half of us suffer with lice. How will we last the
winter?"

	The diary goes on to tell of more suffering and relief here and
there. It relates the arrival of Baron Von Steuben and Lafayette. Von
Steuben whips the troops into shape with military drill which they
take to with great willingness.

	The diary ends up around May, 5, 1778:

	"A friend of mine, Sergeant Jones, tells me we now have more than
11,000 men fit for duty at Valley Forge. This brings us much joy ...
But it is a sober thought that during our 'winter dispair' more than
3,000 men died."

	To think all this was to lead up to the grandest of all documents
to see the face of the earth, the United States Constitution. Such
things do not come easily, and the suffering was the price that set
the stage for the ensuing glorious Constitution and the primary, First
Amendment.
     Now here we are, 200 years later, with this Holocaust lie oozing
through our system and it's pro-dependents conspiring to keep it from
being openly questioned, to make it's question socially incorrect, to
have it made a part of every school curriculum, and even to make any
doubts a crime.

                                                     Tom Moran


	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov  5 17:45:19 PST 1996
Article: 78590 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Story is a Hate Crime
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 14:45:36 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 16
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>
>	The Holocaust story relates some of the most wicked claims in
>world history. If it's true then it deserves attention. If it's true,
>then it wouldn't be a 'hate crime' to harp and harp.
>	But, then again, if the story is not true, then it is a 'hate
>crime'. Considering the obsessive, eternal and constant harping on the
>story, if it's not true, then it is the hate crime of the milennia.

	Of course the Germans are the prime wicked parties for the
Holocaust story but the chief pro-dependents and postscript moralizers
of the story have expanded the guilt for the alleged events on to
apply to many others. It now applies to Americans, English, French,
Hungarians, Canadians, Christians and just about everyone in the
world. From this we can see that if the story is not true then the
hate crime is against many.  Millions, hundreds of millions.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Nov  6 07:53:59 PST 1996
Article: 78645 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Swiss barrage continues
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 14:28:19 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <3281fd5f.555511@199.0.216.204>
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>tom moran wrote:
>> [here quoting the LA Times]
>>         The Swiss have been getting most of the Holocaust headlines
>> lately, but Switzerland isn't alone. The shame is spreading all over
>> Europe."
>> 
>>         The article then goes on to cite all the other guilty parties,
>> The Austrian government, French President Chirac for his son living in
>> a building said to have been confiscated from Jews during the war,
>> Portugal who are said to have used looted Jewish gold to buy coal from
>> the Poles, and Russia for joining the German blitzkrieg. Not to
>> exclude the United States either.
>
>Yes, history is a complicated thing. I'm sorry that this story can't be 
>easily summarized as "Aryans v. Jews."

	Your "sorry" it can't be summarized in to "'Aryans v. Jews'"? Why
is that?

>The November 4th _Newsweek_ gives a good summary of the issues, I think, 
>except that it confuses the separate issues of 1) gold deposited 
>directly into Swiss banks by Jews who became Holocaust victims, and 
>never returned, ironically at least in part because of bank secrecy laws 
>enacted precisely to protect those deposits from the Nazis; 2) gold 
>stolen from Jews rounded up to be murdered by the Nazis; and 3) gold 
>taken by the Allies after the war, which included some proportion of #2 
>but also included gold stolen by the Nazis from the French, Belgian, 
>etc. treasuries.

>The only two things about the story that are incontrovertible was that 
>quite a lot of gold was stolen from the some six million Jewish victims 
>of the Holocaust, and that the disposition of that gold is one of the 
>more shameful episodes of postwar history. Issues of blame and whether 
>it is possible to make amends are unresolved.

	Stolen from "the some six million" you say? How many would that
be? Five million, nine hundred thousand of them? What is going to
happen is the Jews are going to make claim to just about everything,
and in time Europe will be getting sick to it's stomach.
 
>-rich



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Nov  6 14:44:54 PST 1996
Article: 78703 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Guns for Tots
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 14:27:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <3280fd18.484768@199.0.216.204>
References: <327b7709.237276@199.0.216.204> <2NOV199621052853@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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>In article <327b7709.237276@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>	
>>	                 Philadelphia Enquirer
>>                           Nov. 1, 1996
>> 
>>	"Israel to make it easier for its citizens to legally carry gun"
>> 
>>	Interesting. Jews and Jewish organizations in the U.S. being the
>>foremost proponents for gun control in this country and for Israel it
>>is the reverse. 
>
>    Interesting.  Someone smarter than the antisemitic zeyde might conclude
>    that this is evidence of American Jews no always being in agreement
>    with Israelis.  But the antisemitic zeyde simply twists his
>    presumptions to make it all fal into place for himself.  To wit:

	Having followed Jewish writings in the papers for over fifteen
years I can only recollect two or three examples that I would consider
honest condemnations of Zionist actions out of the thousands of
letters to the editors, editorials, signed or unsigned, articles and
ads I have witnessed.

	Any of these writings could, would be deemed "anti-Semitic" if
the terms Arab, Christian, Muslim or Palestinian were changed around
and replaced with the terms Jewish, Hebrew and/or Zionism.
	
	"Anti-Semitism" means anyone who disagrees with Jewish activites,
regardless of what it may be.

	"Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism" which would make condemnations of
Zionist policy of shooting kids an act of "anti-Semitism".

	If that be the case, then so be it.  

>
>    >Of course the Jews would argue their special
>>circumstances for the right of their brethren in the occupied
>>territories to bear arms. After all, there are those little
>>Palestinian kids who throw rocks and it becomes necessary to shoot
>>them from time to time, according to Jewish logic.
>
>    Going to buy any Chanukah gelt for the grandkids this year, zeyde?
>
>     daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Nov  6 14:49:51 PST 1996
Article: 78703 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Guns for Tots
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 14:27:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <3280fd18.484768@199.0.216.204>
References: <327b7709.237276@199.0.216.204> <2NOV199621052853@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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>In article <327b7709.237276@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>	
>>	                 Philadelphia Enquirer
>>                           Nov. 1, 1996
>> 
>>	"Israel to make it easier for its citizens to legally carry gun"
>> 
>>	Interesting. Jews and Jewish organizations in the U.S. being the
>>foremost proponents for gun control in this country and for Israel it
>>is the reverse. 
>
>    Interesting.  Someone smarter than the antisemitic zeyde might conclude
>    that this is evidence of American Jews no always being in agreement
>    with Israelis.  But the antisemitic zeyde simply twists his
>    presumptions to make it all fal into place for himself.  To wit:

	Having followed Jewish writings in the papers for over fifteen
years I can only recollect two or three examples that I would consider
honest condemnations of Zionist actions out of the thousands of
letters to the editors, editorials, signed or unsigned, articles and
ads I have witnessed.

	Any of these writings could, would be deemed "anti-Semitic" if
the terms Arab, Christian, Muslim or Palestinian were changed around
and replaced with the terms Jewish, Hebrew and/or Zionism.
	
	"Anti-Semitism" means anyone who disagrees with Jewish activites,
regardless of what it may be.

	"Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism" which would make condemnations of
Zionist policy of shooting kids an act of "anti-Semitism".

	If that be the case, then so be it.  

>
>    >Of course the Jews would argue their special
>>circumstances for the right of their brethren in the occupied
>>territories to bear arms. After all, there are those little
>>Palestinian kids who throw rocks and it becomes necessary to shoot
>>them from time to time, according to Jewish logic.
>
>    Going to buy any Chanukah gelt for the grandkids this year, zeyde?
>
>     daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Nov  7 06:13:11 PST 1996
Article: 78752 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Roller coaster Jewish pop. numbers
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 14:06:07 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 45
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>From  a previous response to Judith Toth's post, "For the enrichment of
NIZKOR archives".

"Jewish Encyclopedia (Publ. 1970):

World Jewry in 1900 ................. 11 million
World Jewry in In 1939............	  16,658,000
European Jewry  1939 ............    9,650,000"

Response:
	Lets see.  The figures for 1970 are only accurate to the nearest
thousand and the figures from 1919 are accurate to the last digit?

"The American Jewish Year Book (1918-1919)

World Jewry /1917/................	15,124,349
European Jewry /1917/..........10,891,917"

Response:
	Other figures that have appeared in our newspapers range from 13
to 16 to 20 million today.
                       =====================

	Another point: 

          Jewish Encyclopedia
World Jewry in 1900 ................. 11 million
World Jewry in In 1939............	  16,658,000
European Jewry  1939 ............    9,650,000"


   The American Jewish Year Book (1918-1919)
World Jewry /1917/................	15,124,349
European Jewry /1917/..........10,891,917

	One account has World Jewry put at 11 million in 1900 and the
other account has it increased by 4 million (40%) in just 17 years to
1917.

	But then, one account has World Jewry at 15 million in 1917, yet
when compared to the other account, World Jewry had increased only 1
million (9%) over the 22 years up to 1939.	 

	Yup. The wacky world of Jewish population claims. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Nov  7 06:13:11 PST 1996
Article: 78758 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More Wayout Jewish Numbers
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 15:13:25 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <32825605.2152126@199.0.216.204>
References: <3272e7e8.5289661@199.0.216.204> <328fba4a.7526427@199.0.216.204> <3NOV199623000876@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <32850509.2518091@199.0.216.204> <55magf$110o@news.ccit.arizona.edu>
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>>In article <328fba4a.7526427@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>>>
>>>>>	                      L.A.Times
>>>>>                         Oct. 19, 1996
>>>>>
>>>>>	"Rabbi Urges Jews to Overcome Bias in Seeking Converts"
>>>> 
>>>>>	The rabbi stated that the "Jewish mission, does not mean
>>>                                                                                    ^^^
>>>>>denigration of other religions or vulgar promotion of evangelical
>>>>>enthusiasm ... and circus conversion". ( "..." Times copy)
>>>> 
>>>>	Here we have the rabbi denigrating other religions as pointed out
>>>>in the original post.
>>>
>>>    How you get "denigrating other religions" out of "does not mean
>>>    denigration" is beyond me.
>>>
>>>    I wish I could call the opposites police!
>
>>	You just can't face up to recognizing filthy material when you
>>see it. This is the Jewish trait. To defend everything Jewish.
>
>I am not defending the article.  I can't tell what is in the article
>from just one sentence.  All I am doing is pointing out that you
>misinterpreted this one sentence, zeyde.
>
>>	Its obvious you chose not to comment on the "vulgar promotion of
>>evangelical enthusiasm ... and circus conversion".
>
>I choose not to comment on sentences when you pull out the middle of
>them and replace them with "...."   There is no way for me to know
>what I would be commenting on.  You have a history of being somewhat
>disengenous in your deletion selections.

	Mister Mittleman, here is exactly what was cited in the head
article.

The rabbi stated that the "Jewish mission, does not mean
denigration of other religions or vulgar promotion of evangelical
enthusiasm ... and circus conversion". ( "..." Times copy)

	Notice how the "..." is cited to be "Times copy". What was there
before it was placed in the Times article I do not know. The "..." is
Times copy.

	The rabbi's statement again.

"Jewish mission, does not mean denigration of other religions or
vulgar promotion of evangelical enthusiasm ... and circus conversion".

	The sentence says what it says. The rabbi claims that any
conversion process "does not mean denigration of other religions" --
"or" -- "vulgar promotion of evangelical enthusiasm ... and circus
conversion" which he is referring to the conversion process of other
religions.

>>	Ethnocentrically insane. Racist to the hilt. That's you
>>Mr.Mittleman. 
>
>That's Dr. Mittleman to you, zeyde.

	Mister Mittleman, your doctorate mind claims, "You have a history
of being somewhat disengenous in your deletion selections".

	Did you comment on the following?

"Judaism: In sermon to his synagogue,
Rabbi Harold Schulweis ways the 
notion of conversion is upsetting to 
some Jews because they feel Judaism 
is less ideology than a biology."

	Well so much for the Jewish claims that Judaism isn't racist.

>So, what ARE you getting the grandkids for Chanukah this year?
>
>
>

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Nov  8 10:58:24 PST 1996
Article: 78856 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Away For a Week
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 00:41:46 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>I'll be away for a week (beautiful England), starting
>Monday, and may not have access to the newsgroup. If
>anyone has any specific question/comment to me, please
>e-mail it. However, I specifically ask Matt Giwer not
>to send me any e-mail.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.

	See that Giwer? Don't send him any e-mail. In other words, do not
send him any e-mail. No e-mail. "Specifically", no e-mail, Giwer.




From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Nov  8 10:58:25 PST 1996
Article: 78884 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Holocaust Story is a Hate Crime
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 16:47:30 GMT
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	The Holocaust story relates some of the most wicked claims in
world history. If it's true then it deserves attention. If it's true,
then it wouldn't be a 'hate crime' to harp and harp.
	But, then again, if the story is not true, then it is a 'hate
crime'. Considering the obsessive, eternal and constant harping on the
story, if it's not true, then it is the hate crime of the milennia.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Nov  9 05:38:26 PST 1996
Article: 78999 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: And/Or Numbers
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 14:03:34 GMT
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Numbers of missing Jews 

[Nizkor page]                  [Wiesenthal page]

Germany -        195,000			141,500		
Austria -        53,000			50,000
Czechoslovakia - 255,000			No listing
Denmark -        1,500			60
France -         140,000			77,320
Belgium -        57,000			28,000
Luxemburg -      3,000			1,950
Norway -         1,000			762
Holland -        120,000			No listing
Italy -          20,000			7,680
Jugoslavia -     64,000			63,000
Greece -         64,000			67,000
Bulgaria -       5,000			0--0.0%
Rumania -        530,000			287,000
Hungary -        200,000			569,000
Poland -         3,271,000		3,000,000
USSR -           1,050,000		1,100,000

Latvia		  No listing		71,000
Lithuania        No listing		143,000
Slovakia         No listing		71,000
Finland          No listing		7

The moon?        Not listed        Not listed
Mars?            Not listed		Not listed

 
Less dispersed refugees (308,000)

Total number of Jews that were exterminated = 5,721,500.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Some estimates are lower, some are higher, but this is the magnitude
in question. In a recent article in CMU's student newspaper, the head
of CMU's History Department, Peter Stearns, is quoted as saying that
newly discovered documents - especially in the former USSR - indicate
that the number of victims is higher than 6 million.

About 6 million non-Jewish civilians were killed by the Nazis - mostly
in Poland and Yugoslavia. Many of them died in labor camps inside
Germany.

-Danny Keren.



.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Nov 10 06:54:07 PST 1996
Article: 79002 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: They took my spoon.
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 14:06:37 GMT
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	    "Proof of Suffering Is Price of Holocaust Repartition"
                     L.A. Times, June 4, 1996

(Sub header)
"Soviet Jews: Survivors tell of indelible horrors. But for many,
documenting them to qualify for aid is impossible." 

	"One can still hear the smack of the scythe smashing against her
head. Denting her skull ..." How much is that bitter taste worth?
...One can still feel the panic that swamped him as he stood in line,
waiting for the killers to get to his row. ...
	How much?
	How to quantify the indescribable? How to calculate the
unimaginable?
	How to compensate victims for the horrors of the Holocaust?
	Fifty-one years after Nazi Germany crumbled, those questions
haunt a dwindling group of Holocaust survivors.
	Most of their fellow survivors have long since received some
compensation -- not enough to erase their torment, of course, but
enough to cushion them through old age. The German government has paid
more than $60 billion to victims of the Nazis since WW II, and is
paying more than 130,000 survivors lifetime pensions--a commitment
that will cost another %20 billion over the next few decades.
	...
	...More than 90,000 Soviet emigrants world wide have applied for
this last chance to receive German pensions.
	...
	Perhaps the toughest requirement demands that survivors prove
their persecution with official documents--not eyewitness
testimony--before receiving pensions.
	When the Nazis stormed through a huge swath of Soviet territory
... they left behind detailed but disorganized records, said Radu
Iaonid, director of the registry of survivors at the Holocaust
Memorial Museum in Washington.
	The conquering soldiers might, for example, have jotted down that
they confiscated two silver teaspoons from Jew X ...
	....
	These days, negotiations have only gotten harder Jewish leaders
say. Memories of the war have faded. And Germany struggles with a
shaky economy, a disgruntled work force and unpopular cuts in social
programs. 
	...
	'The claims Conference' ... is not giving up'" 

                           ____________

	In a accompanying photograph is a Si Frumkin standing tough and
holding up his Star of David from his chain, a person who has had at
least 20 letters to the editor of the L.A. Times published, most often
justifying anything Zionist.

	The number of existing Jewish survivors is put at 130,000 which
is what remains of the "dwindling amount". Maybe we could say this is
less than half of those who said they were survivors. After all it is
50 years later and many of those must have died which would put the
number of survivors originally at over 260,000. Adding this to the
90,000 now applying we have 350,000.
	What constitutes a "survivor"? Well going by this report, anyone
having so much as a spoon confiscated is a surviving victim.
	Special note should be taken that the criteria for applying for
the money is not to be founded on "eyewitness testimony."
	It seems the German government is getting sick and tired of the
demands. And the "disgruntled" work force is not in any mood to have
their funds given over to some phony cause.
	Could it be the Jews will drive the population of Germany into
the revisionist energy? Could be. The Jews seem to always drive their
demands to a intolerable saturation point.
                             ____________	


	The focus of this article is on the Jews who have emigrated out
of the Soviet Union in the last few years. This all started after the
Jews began to assert wide scale "anti-Semitism" in that country. Of
the twelve major profiles done on individuals, not one account was
offered as to any incident they suffered, instead focusing on how
brilliant they are. As to the general accounts of the alleged
persecution, not one single account. 
	The whole thing with the flare up of the Soviet persecution began
after a number of articles, letters and columns complained of the Jews
being out populated by Arab birth rate in Israel proper.
	The whole thing was a lie.
	Hundreds of thousands of these Soviet Jewish emigres came to the
U.S. where they are now collecting U.S. pensions and saturating
convalescent facilities. 
	In a recent article in the Santa Monica daily newspaper, Outlook,
it went on about the 600 dollars a month the local population of
Soviet Jews is receiving was a hardship and not enough. The article
cited that 500 of them in the town were receiving this amount. 
	Santa Monica is a town that has hundreds of unemployed homeless
crouching for shelter in all sorts of nooks and crannies. Most of them
have to go through hell to get even a few dollars.
	The U.S. at one time refused special trading status to the 
Soviet Union founded on the allegations of anti-Semitism. While we
boycotted this nation on the grounds of the lie other nations moved in
to do trade that was denied America, the same thing that happens when
we boycott other Zionist enemies.
	Billions upon billions upon billions of the peoples hard earned
tax dollars going over this. America - Germany, nations of slaves to
lies.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Nov 10 06:54:07 PST 1996
Article: 79033 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Cremation Rates
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 14:03:24 GMT
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	Even though modern day cremation facilities take two and half
hours to cremate one body, the cremation ovens at Auschwitz, barely
the size of a regrigerator, could cremate up to three bodies in twenty
minutes, as the Holocaust story has it.

	At Majdanek, the victims arms and legs were cut off so they could
stuff in four bodies all at once in each oven and then it took only
about ten minutes to reduce them to charred bone.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Nov 10 06:54:08 PST 1996
Article: 79053 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Scientific Assumptions Admissible
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 14:03:18 GMT
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	From a Nizkor posting,	"Holocaust Almanac: Treblinka
Judgement".
		
>Archive/File: camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka german.court

>                     EXCERPTS FROM JUDGMENTS
>                       (URTEILSBEGRUNDUNG)

"It has not been possible, of course, to establish the exact number
of people transported to Treblinka in this fashion, because only a
part of the transportation documents, particularly those relevant to
the railroad transports, are available. Still, assuming that each
of the trains consisted of an average of 60 cars, with each freight
car holding an average total of 100 persons and each passenger car
an average total of 50 (i.e., that each freight train might have
carried an approximate total of 6,000, and each passenger train
an approximate total of 3,000 Jews to Treblinka) the total number
of people transported to Treblinka in freight trains and passenger
trains might be estimated at approximately 271,000. This total would
not include the 329,000 from Warsaw. Actually, however, these figures 
in many instances were much larger than the ones cited above. Besides,
many additional thousands of Jews - and also Gypsies - arrived in
Treblinka in horse-drawn wagons and on trucks. Accordingly, it must
be assumed that that the total number of Jews from Warsaw, from other 
parts of Poland, from Germany and from other European countries,
who were taken to Treblinka, plus the total of at least 1,000 Gypsies
who shared the safe fate, amounted to far more than 700,000, even if
one considers that several thousands of people were subsequently
moved from Treblinka to other camps and that several hundred inmates
succeeded in escaping from the camp, especially during the revolt
of August 2, 1943. In view of the foregoing, it would be
scientifically admissible to estimate the total number of persons
killed in Treblinka at a minimum of 700,000.

The court of Assizes sees no reason to question the opinion of this
expert, who is known in the scholarly world for his studies on the
National Socialist persecution of the Jews. The expert opinion he
has submitted is detailed, thorough, and therefore convincing."

=====================================================================
                        
                            Summary

	"It has not been possible, of course, to establish the exact
number of people transported to Treblinka ..."

	"Still, assuming ..."

	"Actually, however, these figures in many instances were much
larger than the ones cited above."

	"Accordingly, it must be assumed ..."

	"In view of the foregoing, it would be scientifically admissible
..."

	"The expert opinion he has submitted is detailed, thorough, and
therefore convincing."


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Nov 10 12:07:03 PST 1996
Article: 79093 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: STUPID GERMANS
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 14:02:57 GMT
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	This is a list of various claims by the Holocaust story. As the
accounts suggest, some real wacky decisions and acts took place by the
Germans. If the following list of accounts are true then the Germans
were stupid. But then again, if the following statements are not true,
then whoever alleges them must be the stupid ones. Either way someone
has to take responsibility for the following.

I.
According to Brian Harmon's report presented to the group
under "Cyanide, Zyklon-B & Mass Murder" posted by Mc Vay, the Germans
built two of the crematoria gas chambers under ground so the SS could
get on the roof to pour in the Zyklon B.
	

II.
	According to the Holocaust story, instead of building chimneys
right in the immediate proximity of the furnaces for evacuation of the
flaming residue from raging coke fires, and availing of the long and
widely known principle of draft and chimney design, the Germans built
them 20 to 40 feet away so they would have to install underground
flues from furnace to chimney. Of course since heat rises this setup
would necessitate the need for some sort of mechanical assist like
heat resistant blowers to draw the smoke and hot ash first down into
the ground or cellar (take your pick), and then through the connecting
flue(s) to the chimney.

III.
	According to Holocaust facts, the Germans had murdered 2 million
at Treblinka, but not before they had buried hundreds of thousands
then realized they better dig them up and cremate them and then rebury
any remains. This same thing happened at Auschwitz. Now, whether the
Germans started to bury bodies at Auschwitz after they had already
started to dig them up at Treblinka would be contingent on Holocaust
dates.

IV.
	According to the Holocaust story, the Germans built
Crematorias II and III right at the end of the rail spur that went
into Birkenau. The buildings are said to have been located on each
side of the tracks about a hundred yards or so away. This would make
sense. By reducing the area the victims would have to cross there
would be less chance of the rest of the swarming camp from seeing what
was going on, even though the facilities were in plain sight according
to some Holocaust facts. 
	We can give the Germans credit for building the first two
right by the rail facility, but then it could have just been an
accidental quirk of luck, because they went on to build Crematorias IV
and V clear over on the other side of the camp, requiring transport
and/or marching the people by the thousands on a day by day regularity
all the way over from the rail facility, across the open fields, past
barracks and the bathhouse.
	
V.
Instead of incorporating the portals for the introduction of
the Zyklon B while constructing the specially built killing chambers,
the Germans first poured the concrete ceilings solid over a grid of
iron re-bar and then realized they had no way of getting the pellets
into the chamber. 

     (In all fairness, I must offer some dissent against any claims
the Germans were stupid, there could have been some reasons why they
went about it so ass backwards.)

                    _____________________
        
John Morris:
"There are any number of reasons why the holes would have been cut
after construction. Now, you may wish to believe that the Nazis
were stupid for not thinking of the holes while they were
constructing the gas chamber, but others of us are willing to
accept that they were reasonably good in practical matters."

"It could have been that the Nazis kept the homicidal purpose of
the chamber from the construction engineers."

	But then the Holocaust books like to play up how every one was
zealous for the tasks assigned to them. Especially with the latest
Goldhagen book and A.M.Rosenthal's escalation that 50,000,000 Germans
were involved.
                         ____________________

"It could have been an oversight."

	Okay, the Germans were stupid.
                         ____________________

"It could have been that they realized that throwing Zyklon B
through the door was not very effective."

	This makes sense. They built the chambers, and someone
said 'Heil, how will we put in the Zyklon B, we can't just throw it
through the door, what with all those people crammed in there. We
better cut some holes in the roof like we did at Krema I.	
                        _____________________

"It could have been that they realized that throwing Zyklon B
through the ceiling vent was not very effective."

	Yea, this certainly would have been a problem. You know,
having to push it along with some kind of ramming device through the
maze of ducting. 
                        _______________________

"I just gave five reasons. No doubt others could think of more
reasons, and no doubt you will object that I began each with the
phrase, 'it could have been'. But the absence of direct proof
about *why* the SS did things the way they did is not proof that
they did not do things."

	After all this we don't know who is stupid, but someone has to
take responsibility for the suggested reasons.
         

VI.
	As the Holocaust story has it, instead of using some kind of
gas directly for the much touted well planned, obsessive and foremost
Nazi goal of efficient extermination of millions of Jews, the Germans
opted to use pellets designed for gradual release that just happened
to be laying around for fumigation purposes. 

VII.
	According to the Holocaust story, the Germans had a obsessive
master plan to kill Jews, and the whole thing was planned to keep it
secret. Now how stupid can you get? They went on to carry it out, all
with long trains loaded with thousands of people coming into Birkenau
every day and lined up in the complex waiting to be unloaded, 4, 5, 6
belching chimneys going all day and all night, huge flaming pits out
in the fields, all right in the heart of a labor camp with a hundred
thousand prisoners, in the area of a large civilian population, where
a thousand of them worked at the camps every day and came in ready
contact with the workings of the camp and the camp population.

VIII.
	How stupid can you get. As the Holocaust story has it, the
Germans in their policy to keep the whole thing secret built the
buildings of mass extermination with large double windows running the
full length of the building on both sides that looked like a
recreation room at a Bavarian summer camp.

IX.
	According to the Holocaust story, Jamie McCarthy representing,
the Germans built the Crema II and III gas chambers underground to
keep the victims from knocking the walls down.
	Evidently the Germans finally figured out something else
when they built Cremas IV and V.

X.
	Wow. Now how stupid can you get. As the Holocaust story has
it, the Wannsee Conference was one at which the master plan for the
extermination of European Jews was declared. As it turns out, the
Germans made 30 copies of the proceedings and passed them out for
circulation throughout various ministries. Now is that any way to keep
a secret?  

XI.
	According to the Holocaust story: "The first gassing in
crematorium IV did not go well. An SS man, wearing a face mask, had to
climb a little ladder to get to a 'window,' then open it with one hand
and pour in the Zyklon B with the other. This acrobatic routine had to
be repeated six times." [2]

XII.
	According to the Holocaust story, the first major gas camber to
be used at Auschwitz was a earth covered bunker where the people were
gassed and then the residual gas was ventilated out before unloading.
Now how stupid can you get? This bunker was nestled right in among the
Gestapos office, the SS Hospital and the camp administration building.

XII.
	According to a Leleko "interrogation", "Holocaust Almanac:
Killing System - Leleko 2", the Germans allowed the prisoners bound
for instant death at Treblinka to carry razors and knives.
	The same testimony expounds how all the people on a day by day
arrival knew right away they were headed for death and there was
always wild mayhem, but nevertheless, the Germans let them bring
razors and knives.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Nov 10 12:07:03 PST 1996
Article: 79096 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A Certain Perspective
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 14:02:38 GMT
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	Six million Jews killed?

If we could line up that many people in rows, toe to heal and ten
across, the whole line would be about a hundred miles long.

If you started at one end in a car and drove along side these ten rows
at 60 miles an hour, it would take you about an hour and a half before
you got to the other end.

Think about that the next time you take a spin.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 11 07:04:03 PST 1996
Article: 79135 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Some Holocaust Facts
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 15:33:30 GMT
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>In article <32858f03.774442@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>> 
>>                             [repost]
>> 
>>	Anywhere from 600,000 to 4 million Jews were gassed at Auschwitz.
>
>    FACT: No credible historian currently concludess there were more than
>    1,500,000 Jews gassed at Auschwizt (and almost all conclude between
>    800,000 and 1,100,000.)  Tommy could demonstrate me wrong by citing a
>    recent study by a credible historian which demonstrates differently. 
>    He can't, though. 

	Mr.Mittleman thinks he is being cute with his slipping in his
"currently" concludes. He says Tommy can show him to be wrong by
citing any "recent" studies.

	Thank you Mr.Mittleman.


>>	Even though many revisions to the Holocaust story have taken
>>place, with many of the old accounts being generally recognized as
>>lies, any surviving accounts are to be accepted unconditionally.
>
>    FACT: First, yes, many revisions have taken place.  
>    Second, few if any of the old accounts are generally recognized as lies

	First "FACT": "Yes"

	Second fact: No, "few if any ..." 

    
>    Needs work Tommy.  When you post this again in a month, maybe you will
>    try to address my points.  {heh!}

	

>     daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Nov 13 06:28:58 PST 1996
Article: 79248 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: TREBLINKA, there, gone, there again
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 14:03:16 GMT
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	For anyone who wants to check out what the Holocaust story has as
evidence for this camp being an extermination facility check out
Nizkor. (Nizkor > ftp > treblinka)
	Notice how they deny the evidence is not founded on "eyewitness"
testimony and then notice how most of their evidence is testimony and
quotes from books.
	Notice "treblinka 02." where it is quoted from the "Old Frogs
Almanac" - "When the Russians took over the Treblinka complex and the
nearly dead survivors ... there was no lack of physical evidence".
Notice under other clickables where it is said "The suffocated bodies
in recently arrived cattle cars ..." were there also.
	Yet the Holocaust story also has it that the camp was constructed
one year (1941-2), 2,000,000 people were exterminated the next years
(1942-3) and the next year it was plowed over and turned into a tree
farm (1943-4), and yet according to the above account, when the
Russians arrived a year after all this, it was still there, in full
bloom.  
	This exemplifies the typical nature of Holocaust evidence.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Nov 13 06:28:59 PST 1996
Article: 79306 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Information for Holocaust Revisionists
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 15:11:32 GMT
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>      
>    * * * * NEW INFORMATION FOR HOLOCAUST REVISIONISTS * * * *
>
>        The following article appeared in the Washington Post
>                  (Sunday, November 10, 1996 -- page 1)
>
>=========================================================================
>
>          DECODED CABLES REVISE HISTORY OF OF HOLOCAUST 
>            German Police Implicated; British Knew 
>
>                       By Michael Dobbs 
>                  Washington Post Staff Writer

	Here we have a revisionist process taking place. Not one that is
intended to show the Holocaust didn't happen, but one to show it
happened in ways other than what has been the preponderance of the
alleged accounts.

	Basically, that the Holocaust was not one of a master plan, but
something that just sort of began to happen, beginning in Russia.

	This article is also focusing on putting a lot of blame on the
United States and England. In a couple of more years the two countries
might find themselves more responsible for the Holocaust than Germany.

	Right here, the last paragraph of the article exemplifies the
whole Holocaust standard for evidence.
 
>''They made us stand in front of a ditch, six metres deep by 35 metres
>long. The [German] soldiers stood in a line, shooting six people at a
>time," recalled Arbagem Blyazer, who survived a mass execution in October
>1941 by throwing himself into the ditch the moment the first shots rang
>out and pretending he was dead. Blyazer told a Soviet war crimes
>commission that there were four large pits at Panari, each containing
>between 18,000 and 25,000 bodies.

	Here we have an eyewitness who says he was right there, that he
survived, and then to become a witness that gave a report of the
Russians of all these super mass graves, and yet was there any going
to the scene of the crimes, digging up the areas for the forensic
physical proof? No. 
	This testimony is no different from the rest. Words and no other
realities. No verification from one who should have been able to show
them exactly where, at a time when the physical evidence should have
been easily located and easily uncovered.
-----



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Nov 13 06:29:00 PST 1996
Article: 79307 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is 'Holocaust Denial'?
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 15:19:13 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>jimkonen@atl.mindspring.com ("Truth") writes:
>
>> 
>> In recent years, more and more attention has been devoted to the
>> supposed danger of "Holocaust denial." 
>
>Well, no.  More and more attention has been devoted to study of the
>nature of Holocaust denial and Holocaust deniers; Lipstadt certainly
>pointed the way.  The idea is to look at Holocaust denial as what it
>is -- an expression of bigotry, ignorance, and/or psychpathology --
>rather than what it purports to be.

	In other words, anything other than respondinmg to Holocaust
denier points directly.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Nov 13 06:29:00 PST 1996
Article: 79314 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Having Their Say Galore
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 15:54:46 GMT
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>In article <3285c525.2159705@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>					
>>	        Full page ad, N.Y.Times, Nov. 8, 1996
>> 
>>	                  "THIS SUNDAY,
>>			WITNESS THE FILM THAT CRITICS ARE 
>>			CALLING 'A STUNNING THRILLER'"
>> 
>>				   "A MASTERPIECE"
>> 
>>	  A picture of telescopic cross hairs on Robert Duvall, evidently
>>playing the role of Eichmann.
>[snip] 
>>	So here we have yet, yet, yet more major accommodations for the
>>Holocaust story, complete with rave reviews and prime time. Since I
>>watch very little TV I don't know how much touting it will get on TNT
>>up to that time, but I would say it would be considerable.
>> 
>>	One should wonder what the problem is for those who are so
>>adamant and reliant on the Holocaust story. They get all this major
>>accommodation and yet when it comes to any accommodation for
>>revisionist, in the papers, on TV or campuses all we get is
>>"anti-Semitism", "neo-Nazi" and "Hate". 

	I have a collection of every Scientology ad they ever put in the
Times. The first one I saw I got the notion some Jews had infiltrated
the organization. Now I'm not all that sure. I don't know what is
taking place behind the scenes with this group. As far as Germany and
them, I would say Germany and any other nation should teach their kids
or whoever better so they wouldn't have to worry about any
brainwashing.

	Scientology has a fantastic root in Hubber's stuff but it's been
corrupted. I recall one case here in the U.S. where they were allowed
to go into a person's house and go through his stuff. It gave me the
creeps.

	I would say Germany is corrupted too, with this Scientology thing
and it's laws against Holocaust revisionism.



>    It is in how you present it, Tommy.  We have gone through this before. 
>    You posts are filled with anti-semitism and hate (you have not made any
>    neo-Nazi statements that I recall.)

	Go for it.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Nov 13 06:29:01 PST 1996
Article: 79358 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Certain Perspective
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 15:12:08 GMT
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>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>  	I have seen many extra-extraordinary claims about how many
>>  relatives individual Jews had lost in the Holocaust. One person said
>>  he lost 120. Another said he lost 160, on his mother's side alone,
>>  then admitted to a "retraction" and another person said she had a lot
>>  of "photographs".
>
>	That's a lie you filthy, bigoted chunk of human excrement.  A damend 
>deliberate lie typical of your absolute inability to deal with Jews with any level of 
>honesty.  There was -- and since it is true -- never will be a "retraction" of that 
>claim.  The "retraction" was of the offer to send you a list of the names after you 
>chortled about the "fun" you would have going ovver the list.
>
>	I expect a "retraction" of your dispicable lie immediately.
>
>	--YFE

	Since you have come out and identified yourself as one of the
parties mentioned above, and you state the circumstances of the
"retraction", maybe you should come out and post the particulars,
complete with that exact accounts from any posts involved to show your
demand to be justified.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Nov 13 06:52:54 PST 1996
Article: 79375 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran: "Revisionist" Wacko
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 15:03:43 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 35
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>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>  
>>  	I thank Mr.Edeiken for his statement doubting the reality of the
>>  American Revolution.
>
>	Wherezat?  I have just applied the methods *you* use to a generally 
>accepted historic event.  Exactly what you dishonestly represent as a real 
>methodlogy.
>
>> I stand up for Mr.Edieken's right to question
>>  anything, including his doubts the American Revolution ever took place
>>  and that any lives were lost. I do not have any special words for his
>>  view, like "anti-Semitism" which is applied to those who reveal their
>>  attitudes and opinions about the Holocaust or any other Jewsih
>>  activity.
>
>	You have earned that label with you lying, your bigotry, and your lack 
>of reasoning ability.
>
>> All I have is 'Thanks' Mr.Edeiken, for your precident
>>  example that seriously challenges any objections to Holocaust
>>  revisionism.
>
>	Other than the fact that this sentence is meaningless in the English 
>language, it once more show your lack of reading skills.  It's not that you haven't 
>a clue, l'il tommy, it's that you haven't a clue that you haven't a clue.
>
>	--YFE

	It means, Mr.Edeiken, that you have taken it on yourself to doubt
any realities of the American Revolution and that you shouldn't find
it so obnoxious that people doubt the Holocaust.
	Really, Mr.Edeiken, one could very well charge you with
'anti-goyimism' for expressing these doubts, since the event was the
work of 99.999999999999999% goyim. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Nov 14 08:01:17 PST 1996
Article: 79379 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cremation Rates
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:38:20 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <328adbc5.674533@199.0.216.204>
References: <3285fa37.2511006@news.zippo.com> <565fe3$bk6@news.enter.net> <328c424a.4704216@199.0.216.204> <328967DF.5DFE@west.net>
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>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> >>   ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter) writes:
>> >>   On Sun, 10 Nov 1996 06:22:32 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
>> >>  Alstine) wrote:
>> >
>[[snip] ... [snip]]
>
>> 
>>         At Majdenek, it is said in a Russian report, that each cremation
>> oven could burn four people to charred remains in ten minutes. That
>> would be 24 per hour, 576 a day, per oven.
>> 
>>         What is it? Did the Germans have more efficient ovens at that
>> camp than Auschwitz?
>> 
>>         Here we have the basic process of comparing the evidence. At one
>> camp it was one thing and at another it was another thing.
>> 
>>         Either we assume there were two different crematorium designs,
>> one having much greater capacity than the other, or that at least one
>> of the accounts is wrong, or, that both are wrong.
>
>
>
>For further information on the very design specific ovens/furnaces
>required in the death camps to incinerate corpses, please see memos
>written by IA Topf and Sons of Erfurt, who manufactured some of the
>ovens/furnaces for Auschwitz. One memo (February 12, 1943) specifies
>delivery of three triple oven furnaces to crematoria 2 & 3, and suggests
>using electric elevators/fork conveyors to transport corpses, stoking
>coal, and transporting ashes (to /from mills where clinker would be
>ground to ash then dispersed). Apparently the oven/furnaces were useful
>for _many_ of the corpse disposals, but I doubt the ovens alone could
>keep up with the _height_ of 6,000 corpses a day in 1944--but then mass
>graves (and partial burning) were also utilized at that--and
>other--times, as I remember my uncle saying (he was a German, there at
>the time).

	Holocaust eyewitness facts have it that up to 25,000 people were
killed in a day. The usual facts are that is was usually 12,000 people
a day. 
	Where are the "mass graves"? One should think this would be one
of the most available aspects of the story that could, should be
shown, especially since many of them are located by eyewitness
testimony to be in very specific places, which would require minimal
searching.
	The facts are, that out of the many mass graves alleged to have
been, many with specific locations, not one has been exposed or
confirmed by archeological forensic test. Not then, at the time, and
not to this day.

>CH Kori, g.m.b.h. supplied Dachau and Lublin, using equally practical
>means for corpse disposal, giving 'full satisfaction in practice.'
>
>
>[these memos are from the oven/furnace manufacturers themselves, and are
>available, together with further description on how to utilize their
>equipment, from the documentary evidence presented at the Trial of the
>Major War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal,
>published at Nuremberg. 42 vols.]
>
>P.Kettler



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Nov 14 08:01:18 PST 1996
Article: 79381 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cremation Rates
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:48:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 35
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Even though modern day cremation facilities take two
># and half hours to cremate one body,
>
>Nope. Look at the cremation web site. They say that some
>furnaces take less than an hour to burn a corpse. They
>also say that continuous cremation reduces the time by
>a factor of two, as the furnace is already hot.
>
>This has been pointed out dozens of times.

	"Dozens of times", or thousands of times, it doesn't matter. The
realities of physics will settle the problem and expose the lie, if
and when all things are considered.

	Even if we should accept the that the "factor of two" is correct,
we have to look at the designs of those cremation facilities that are
being discussed to see how they would match up to the German ovens.
Even if the "factor of two" were correct, we might say 4 bodies in one
hour. Lets say 100 a day, per oven. At Majdenek it is said they could
cremate 24 an hour, 576 a day in just one oven. Why wouldn't the
Germans use the same kind of design at Auschwitz? While your trying to
undo challenges to Auschwitz numbers, maybe you should also address
the Majdenek numbers. After all, they are said to have been arrived at
>from  Russian investigations right there at the scene and at the time.

	Also, can you post the URL for the cremation website. I find it
interesting there is one that discusses the various times. I'd like to
do some inquiry to see who sponsors the site. 
 

>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Nov 14 08:01:19 PST 1996
Article: 79382 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: STUPID GERMANS
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:51:49 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
>Who says the "Germans were stupid?" I certainly don't believe the 
>Germans were stupid. I do believe that some Germans were stupid and 
>some Germans still are stupid. Many stupid decisions were made by 
>A.Hitler, the head German at the time, and many stupid Germans 
>believed at the time Hitler was absolutley right when he blamed all 
>Germany's problems on the Jews. Now that's stupid. 
>
>Policies adopted by A. Hitler and implemented by his Nazi followers 
>were pretty stupid for the most part. Attacking Russia, was stupid 
>beyond any questions. Believing that American would stay out of the 
>war, that was stupid. Goering's tale of a piece of cake air victory 
>over Britain, and Hitler's buying this baloney, now that was stupid 
>both on Goerings part and A. Hitler's. These guys demonstrated over 
>and over again, that they just weren't too bright. Their obsession 
>with ridding Europe of the Jews was a stupid decision. The waste of 
>their resources to implement this stated policy was indeed stupid. A. 
>Hitler's lies to his people and the rest of the world was very stupid, 
>because soon nobody believed the old fart, and they knew he was a 
>fruitcake soon enough.
>
>No Tommy, The Germans weren't all stupid. They just did a whole bunch 
>of stupid things. 
>
>Chuck

	It's quite obvious that Chuck has chosen to comment on things
other than what is in the post "Stupid Germans". 
	Why is that Chuck?

>
>
>
>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>>         This is a list of various claims by the Holocaust story. As the
>> accounts suggest, some real wacky decisions and acts took place by the
>> Germans. If the following list of accounts are true then the Germans
>> were stupid. But then again, if the following statements are not true,
>> then whoever alleges them must be the stupid ones. Either way someone
>> has to take responsibility for the following.
>
>The Germans made all the mistakes listed by Moran, and it really 
>doesn't matter any way. Because as usual Moran can't find anything 
>substantial to say, so he lists some weird things nobody understands, 
>including him.  This is called "hair-splitting" by us experts. Others 
>may choose to label it as bluffing, which is Moran's forte.
>
>Moran would be funny if he wasn't so stupid. Shucks, there's that "S" 
>word again. 
>
>Chuck



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Nov 14 08:01:19 PST 1996
Article: 79383 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cremation Rates
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 15:13:13 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>>   ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter) writes:
>>   On Sun, 10 Nov 1996 06:22:32 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
>>  Alstine) wrote:
>
>>  >Another silly Moranic (tm) lie bites the dust:
>>  >
>>  >"...The temperature at which cremations are done vary based upon the
>>  >retort manufacturer, but most machines operate between 1,500 to 1,900
>>  >degrees F. The actual cremation time again varies depending upon the type
>>  >of machine. Low capacity retorts take approximately 3 hours to complete a
>>  >cremation while high capacity machines take less than one hour. In
>>  >addition to the type of retort, the size of the individual and the number
>>  >of cremations conducted during the day also affect the time. For example,
>>  >in the retort we operate, the first cremation of the day takes about two
>>  >hours and the second takes about an hour. That is because the retort
>>  >already has a high internal temperature at the beginning of the second
>>  >cremation...." 
>
>>   Excuse me for sticking my OHV in here but...
>>  My understanding was that the incinerators used coke as fuel and
>>  therefore ran at much lower temperatures than you refer to above.
>>  That's 500F to 700F degrees less than todays retorts.  Lower temps.
>>  equate to slower burning rates.
>
>	The comparison between a modern commercial crematory and the 
>operations at Auschwitz is complicated by the different purposes of the operations. 
> At Auschwitz the objective was to cremate as many bodies as possible in the 
>shortest amount of time.  A modern crematory is a commercial operation rarely, if 
>ever, used to full capacity. 
>
>	The procedures, therefore, are different.  A modern crematory is not used 
>for continuous cremations or at maximum efficiency.  They are cooled down after 
>every use to completely clean all ashes from the interior. (An interesting reason can 
>be found in the book "Dead Men Do Tell Tales"  One chapter was devoted to a 
>lawsuit in Florida where the crematory was charged with comingling ashes.) and 
>the cadavers are placed in a cool retort which -- to minimize damage to the lining 
>brick -- is heated slowly to the burning temperature.    Whatever advantage is 
>gained by a "hotter" furnace is lost in this cycling time.
>
>	 Another factor is environmental regulation.   A crematory operated to 
>minimize cremation time is more likely to produce pollution.  A slower cremation time 
>allows the pollution control equipment to function more efficiently.  This was not 
>much of a concern at Auschwitz (or anywhere else at that time where copious 
>amounts of smoke and smell were considered a sign of industrial health).
>
>	--YFE

	All the designs for present day cremation ovens can be compared
to those of 50 years ago. The cremation capacities for the German
ovens is one of the many Achilles heels to the Holocaust story.

	All the lame alibis given by those so reliant on the Holocaust
story can not undo what would have to result if a special commission
was set up to study it, involving the plans and testimonies of
experts.

	At Majdenek, it is said in a Russian report, that each cremation
oven could burn four people to charred remains in ten minutes. That
would be 24 per hour, 576 a day, per oven.

	What is it? Did the Germans have more efficient ovens at that
camp than Auschwitz? 

	Here we have the basic process of comparing the evidence. At one
camp it was one thing and at another it was another thing.

	Either we assume there were two different crematorium designs,
one having much greater capacity than the other, or that at least one
of the accounts is wrong, or, that both are wrong. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Nov 14 08:01:20 PST 1996
Article: 79389 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.urantia-book,alt.religion.vaisnava,alt.religion.vince,alt.religion.wicca,alt.religion.wombat,alt.religion.zoroastrianism,alt.religon.beavis-n-butthead,alt.relocate,alt.ren-faire,alt.renewing.american.civilization,alt.restaurants,alt.resumes,alt.retromod,alt.revenge,alt.revisionism,alt.revolution
Subject: Re: Fun & Pleasure
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 16:38:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 13
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>Hi everybody !
>
>Are you male? O.K. Are you female? O.K. No matter what kind of newsgroup
>you are belonging to, because everybody wants to have fun and pleasure.
>
>Here is my special: http://pleasurecove.com . The latest adult
>entertainment for your personal fun & pleasure. Check it out, right now.
>
>Kisses
>
>Tracy

	Thinking directed from the crotch.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Nov 14 08:01:21 PST 1996
Article: 79440 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now it's SEVEN !?! million
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 16:07:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>Watched the Eichman movie on cable the other night.  The postscript text
>stated that the death toll from the "holocaust" was 7 million.  Having
>watched these estimates grow from 1.5 million in the sixties to six
>million in recent years I guess I shouldn't be surprised.  I suppose we
>should all expect to see this number become the standard whine soon. 
>"While 7 million died" etc.  No doubt Nizkor will document this as real
>based on more extrapolations from non-existent eastern-European village
>records.
>
>Regards,
>  Jim H.

	There was also an article of late that cited a claim that the
6,000,000 number might be more like 7,000,000. this is the Jewish
trait, to keep on escalating numbers. It is nothing more than
harrassment, a process of "chutzpa". 
	Pretty soon, we might be finding the claim that the other 5, 6, 7
million non Jews said to have been killed in the Holocaust were really
Jewish. Maybe it might even hit a 100,000,000, a 1,000,000,000. Who
knows? There seems to be no limits to the exaggeration technique.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Nov 14 08:01:22 PST 1996
Article: 79472 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now it's SEVEN !?! million
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:32:42 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Posted by Ibokor under, "The origins of the 6,000,000 figure"

	Benz cites "Nuernberger Dokument PS 2738" as his source.


For the benefit of those whose German is not up to the
task of grasping the gist of the above, an quick summary
is that on November 26th, 1945 Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl testified 
under oath that late in August 1944 Eichmann had told him
in Budapest that he (Eichmann) had prpeared a report for
Himmler on the number of Jews actually killed. He (Eichmann)
had made a tally on the basis of the information available
to him, and had come up with 4,000,000 killed in the various
extermination camps while another 2,000,000 had found their
deaths by other means.

I hope that even our resident and visiting deniers can agree
that 4,000,000 + 2,000,000 = 6,000,000. Of course the six 0's
in each figure could make the addition more difficult.


Also of interest is the last sentence in which Hoettl reports
that Eichmann has expressed to him (Hoettl) his dissatisfaction
with the report, as he (Eichmann) had thought that the number
of Jews killed must have been larger than 6,000,000.
================================================================

	It's nice Ibokor has included that the Doctor Hoettl testified
"under oath". But then so did Ho'ss when he said over 3,000,000 people
were killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau. And then there is Francizec Piper,
curator of the Auschwitz Museum who states that arriving at the new
numbers for that camp, two million less than Ho'ss' statement, was
arrived at by explicitly not using any eyewitness testimony or court
records, which he cited as being unreliable.

	Anyway, it obvious that the numbers are starting to be escalated,
with much of the evidence being posted by those right out here. 

	We can watch for the trend. When ridiculous assertions are made
and then are challenged, escalate the assertions. Thats "chutzpa" for
you.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Nov 14 09:26:25 PST 1996
Article: 79476 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another old man kicked out of U.S.
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:33:05 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	           "Holocaust Suspect Loses Court Fight"

	"A federal appeals court has upheld government efforts to strip
the U.S. citizenship of an 80 year-old man accused of participating in
a massacre of Jews in Lithuania during WWII. .... His citizenship was
revoked on the grounds he improperly entered the U.S. after concealing
his service for a German - organized military unit in Lithuania that
assisted in a 1941 massacre of 9,200 Jews. Stelmokas has denied taking
part in atrocities."

	The obvious thing here is, the old man is being kicked out on the
grounds he illegally entered into the U.S. and not that he was found
guilty of any atrocities.

	It also shows to what extent Jewish organizations have to access
U.S. records and to what extent they have gone over them.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Nov 14 10:19:43 PST 1996
Article: 79482 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cremation Rates
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:02:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <328d265a.335207@199.0.216.204>
References: <3285fa37.2511006@news.zippo.com> <328c424a.4704216@199.0.216.204> <328967DF.5DFE@west.net> <328adbc5.674533@199.0.216.204> 
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># The facts are, that out of the many mass graves alleged
># to have been, many with specific locations, not one has
># been exposed or confirmed by archeological forensic
># test. Not then, at the time, and not to this day.
>
>You're really a miserable liar. Not long ago, a very
>detailed article about a group of Australian scientists
>who went to look for such mass graves was posted. And they
>did find the graves.
>
>Worse, I clearly recall that you responded to this article,
>which was posted by John Morris. I can post it again.

	I distinctly recall the post. It told us about the findings, that
they were presented at a trial for Ukranians, that no Germans were
mentioned, that it wasn't shown they were Jews who were buried, that
the numbers came out to be about 700 for three different graves.
Whatever bodies were there were probably killed by civilians.  I
recall responding to the post and no one coming back to take on the
challenge to the post. I'm not even sure those on trial were convicted
of anything.  

>And, although you read it and responded to it, you're now
>claiming that "no mass graves were found".
>
>What about those at Belsen, BTW? What about the huge amounts
>of human remains in Treblinka?

	Belsen? You mean the pictures of those victims that died after
liberation? Treblinka you say? You say "huge" amounts of bones. The
report said "a quantity of ash", "some" - "large pieces" of human
remains.

	If your not lying yourself why don't you show the report on
Treblinka and show where it says anything like "huge" amounts of bones
were found.

	Repost the Australian thing, and go out and get the 1965 Polish
report mentioned by Mr. Morris by citing Pipers statement, "... found
traces of human ashes, bones,..." and the one done at Treblinka and
we'll do commentary out here, step by step.  

	Cry "liar" all you want. The more you cry it, the feebler you
look.
	I say and have said, any forensic studies for the Holocaust are
it's enemy. Anything given out here never does anything to undo the
expressed doubts.

>What a cheap, disgusting liar you are. A man 60-years-old,
>who lies like a stupid 10-year-old. You make me sick.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Nov 14 10:19:44 PST 1996
Article: 79485 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cremation Rates
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:02:00 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 111
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References: <3285fa37.2511006@news.zippo.com> <565fe3$bk6@news.enter.net> <328c424a.4704216@199.0.216.204> <328967DF.5DFE@west.net> <328adbc5.674533@199.0.216.204> <3289e5a3.656176@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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>In <328adbc5.674533@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>wrote:
>
>[re: mass graves at Auschwitz]
>
>>	Holocaust eyewitness facts have it that up to 25,000 people were
>>killed in a day. The usual facts are that is was usually 12,000 people
>>a day. 
>>	Where are the "mass graves"? One should think this would be one
>>of the most available aspects of the story that could, should be
>>shown, especially since many of them are located by eyewitness
>>testimony to be in very specific places, which would require minimal
>>searching.
>>	The facts are, that out of the many mass graves alleged to have
>>been, many with specific locations, not one has been exposed or
>>confirmed by archeological forensic test. Not then, at the time, and
>>not to this day.
>
>Tom, Tom, Tom. Evidence as to the locations of mass graves has been
>pointed out to you repeatedly so you know that your statement is
>untrue. So what happened? Did you see a new name and think you could
>get away for once with the same old lie?
>
>Mass graves at have been identified both at Auschwitz and Treblinka.
>As Franciszek Piper notes in his article in Gutman and Berebaum's
>_Auschwitz: Anatomy of a Death Camp, p. 179n.:
>
>   In 1965 the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum commisioned Hydrokop,
>   a chemical mining company, to carry out geological tests to find
>   the location of the incineration pits and pyres. Hydrokop bored 303
>   holes up to 3 metere deep at Auschwitz II-Birkenau  and found
>   traces of human ashes, bones, and hair at 42 sites. Documentation
>   and diagrams of all the holes and their distribution are at the
>   Conservation Department of the [Auschwitz State] Museum.
>
>The mass graves are where they are supposed to be: in various
>locations from the northwest corner of the camp to Kremas IV and V and
>behind the gas chambers known as the Bunkers. As Mark Van Alstine
>previously posted, "One can see, on page 5 of the  _Auschwitz
>Chronicle_, the locations of the mass grave and incineration pits,
>which are clearly marked."

	It's funny the Holocaust dependents don't play up these studies.
Piper says they did some 303 bores and came up with some "traces of
human ashes, bones, and hair at 42 sites". He doesn't say how deep
they found anything, he doesn't say anything about were the holes were
done or the traces found. He says "Documentation and diagrams of all
the holes and their distribution are at the Conservation Department of
the [Auschwitz State] Museum." Now this is interesting. Can we just
send away for this study or do we have to go to Poland to see it. My
experience is that they don't respond to inquiries.

	The "some traces" reminds me of the one that was done at
Treblinka were they use the same kind of words, "some" or a "quantity
of". 

	You say VanAlstine posted, ""One can see, on page 5 of the
_Auschwitz Chronicle_, the locations of the mass grave and
incineration pits, which are clearly marked." He says it all can be
found on "page 5"? He says the locations are marked? Would this be
anything like one aerial photo that has an arrow and caption that says
"Probable cremation pit"?

	The fact is, none of these alleged studies are given in ready
accessible publications in a thorough way.

	The way to do a study would require study of the core sample
cross sections to see if the regolithic sequence had been disturbed.
Pipers statement is so vague and short it is obvious there is nothing
that would warrant a thorough publication of the procedures and
findings of the probes.

	Forensic studies are the enemies of the Holocaust lie. No one in
other fields would present such flimsy allusions to sell a point.
Match up VanAlstine's or Piper's statements to something in say
'Scientific American' or even 'Popular Science' and you will notice
how wayward any reports on Holocaust forensic studies are.

	Consider the statements of VanAlstine or Piper introduced into
evidence at a trial. It would be thrown out.

	The method would be, for a honest study, to take core samples.
Once something shows up that could indicate at mass cremation and
burial took place, take more core samples to delineate the approximate
extent and location. Then dig trenches to expose cross sections to
show the soil had been disturbed and that there is a noticeable amount
of material that could be construed as remains of charred bodies,
including the carbon content, and do laboratory tests to show the
material was from human remains. 

	Even to this day, millions of years after the facts, many
geological conclusions are made in the same manner. Even so much as
isolating very thin seems that might show a meteor hit on earth and
led to dinosaur extinctions. Even to this day the evidence should be
there, galore, for any mass cremations and burials. This is one aspect
of the Holocaust/revisionist debate that could, should be available
for studies. So why aren't the World Jewish Congress, Simon Wiesenthal
Center and all the rest of the myriad Jewish organizations out there
to prove it? Because they know there isn't anything there. Other wise
they would be making the move to settle the dispute once and for all.


	This lack of going out and digging up the evidence is one of the
aspects of the Holocaust story that makes me believe the perpetuators
of the lie know it to be just that. A lie.
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Nov 15 06:33:11 PST 1996
Article: 79495 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran -- "Revisionist" Loon
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:27:06 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 52
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>
>	"Revisionists" claim that when they wholesale their lies all they are 
>doing is looking at the Holocaust as they would any other historical event.  
>Clearly if their methodology reveals strange results when other historical events, a 
>strong suspicion arises that the results it yields when applied to the Holocaust are 
>equally faulty.
>
>	Tom Moran -- a liar and an anti-Semite -- gave us an starting point when 
>after wandering through Valley Forge Park he used the brave men who camped 
>there as a springboard for his bigotry.  One of his main sources was an unamed 
>book proporting to be the diary of an unnamed soldier.  That is, all he gave us 
>was an eye-witness account.  This supposed eye-witness account began with the 
>alelged eye-witness standing around in six inches of snow 21 days before the first 
>snowfall at Valley Forge.   To recap the bidding:
>
>	1.  By denier standards, Moran quoted a proven liar.
>
>	2.  The fellow also told us that 3000 men died at Valley Forge.  But he 
>produces no physical evidence of that.  In fact, archeologists and historians have 
>not found a sigle grave in the vicinity of Valley Forge.
>
>	3.  We know that Washington took 1550 officers and 8808 enlisted 
>men into Valley Forge in December 1777.  Thus Moran would have us believe 
>that 1/3 of an campaign hardened army composed of men in the prime of life died 
>in a short period of time in mild weather conditions.
>
>	There are so far three reasons, using "revisionist" logic to doubt that 
>the encampment at Valley Forge ever happened.  But that is just the beginning.
>
>	Just as there are muster reports for December 1777, there are muster 
>reports for May 1778 -- the last month that Washington allegedly spent at Valley 
>Forge.  ("The Sinews of Independence"  C. Lesser; Univ. of Chicago; 1976).  
>"Revisionist" logic and simple arithmetic would dictate that about 7000 men would 
>be left.   Surprise!  In May 1778 there were 1144 officers and 12,682 enlisted men 
>in Washington's army.  Yes, that's what Moran tells us.  10358 minus 3000 equals 
>*13,826.*  The loss of 3,000 men from death (remember we are not even counting 
>desertions) yields an extra 3,000 men.
>
>	And Moran asks that we take his anonymus eye-witness at face value!
>
>	No "revisionist" has yet to come forward to challenge either the facts or 
>the manner in which their methodology has been used.
>
>	And I have not even scratched the surface.
>
>	--YFE

	Keep scratching. I think you may have hit on something here. I'm
not sure how popular it will be, but keep scratching. The more you say
the better.
                                                     Tom Moran



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Nov 15 06:33:12 PST 1996
Article: 79571 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now it's SEVEN !?! million
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:03:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	From Nizkor files:

	"Some estimates are lower, some are higher, but this is the
magnitude in question. In a recent article in CMU's student newspaper,
the head of CMU's History Department, Peter Stearns, is quoted as
saying that newly discovered documents - especially in the former USSR
- indicate that the number of victims is higher than 6 million."

-Danny Keren.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Nov 15 06:33:13 PST 1996
Article: 79573 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: More on the demands for $wi$$ billions
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 15:54:33 GMT
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	   "Survivor Leads Fight For Lost Holocaust Money"
                 N.Y.Times, Nov. 12, 1996

	    "In Lawsuit Against Swiss Banks, A Hope to 
             Do Justice to a Fathers Memory"

	"For half a century, Gizella Weisshaus followed a trail of
whispers."

	....

	"Our people are not getting any younger, ... I'm considered one
of the youngest survivors, so there's going to be nobody left to claim
this money."

	The article, a full half page, goes on to tell us how she is the
first Holocaust survivor in the U.S. to sue the Banks of Switzerland,
and that 3,000 more have come forth to ask to be included. 

	The article relates Ms.Weisshaus' story. Her father was arrested
and then allowed to return home under guard to say fair well to his
family. He is said to have gathered all the family about him, out of
ear shot of the guard we should suppose, and told them, "He spoke
first with my mother. And then he took all the children around him and
he told us he had money hidden in the walls, and money in the Swiss
bank. And that was it. That was the last I saw of my father."

	The next day, she says, the Germans took the rest of the family
to Auschwitz. After her liberation she returned to Romania and her old
house, where she recovered some photographs still there in spite of it
said to have been occupied by drunken Russian soldiers.

	She claims she would sneak into the house during the day while
the soldiers were sleeping off their nightly drunks, which would
explain why they wouldn't have heard all the tapping and scrapping
around in the attic while she looked for the hidden money, which she
says she found, some $1,500, a gold watch, French coins and small
pieces of gold.

	Claiming she found the money in the attic would tend to support
her claim about the "whisper" of the Swiss bank account. 

	Ms.Weisshaus said she lost 55 relatives in the Holocaust. She did
not say why the father would not have given them any bank book at the
time, since he knew he was going away for good.

	She claims to have tried to recover the money from the Swiss
banks, but they told her without an account number they could do
nothing.

	Whether or not she can prove she made the requests to the Swiss
banks before all this latest extortion scheme began to go full blown
will be something the Swiss will have to sort out, as would be the
question of why the father would not have given the family a bank book
or an account number.

	======================================================

	           "Assets of 5 Victims of Nazis 
                 Discovered in a Swiss Bank"	
                   N.Y.Times, Nov. 13, 1996

	"Assets belonging to five Jewish victims of Nazi Germany have
been found so far in one search of Swiss bank vaults that was begun
under international pressure."

	The "international pressure" coming from Jewish organizations and
U.S. persons.

	The article goes on to relate " ... that the newly discovered
assets were part of $1.28 million belonging to 11 depositors he has
found so far this year.
	He did not describe the six other depositors, however, and said
only $8,000 of that money was owed to the heirs of Holocaust victims.
	The World Jewish Congress, which has been campaigning for an
opening of the Swiss banks' books for what it claimed would be $7
billion in such assets, called his findings 'pathetic'."

	How the World Jewish Congress would have the $7 billion figure in
their heads has never been reported on. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Nov 16 07:00:09 PST 1996
Article: 79638 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bye, Bye, "Master Plan"?
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:20:45 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 5
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	 Holocaust propagandists citing the "Wannasee Conference" are out
to show a premeditated master plan by Germany to exterminate all the
Jews.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Nov 16 07:00:11 PST 1996
Article: 79772 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More on the demands for $wi$$ billions
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:03:00 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 10
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	Holocaust Question:

Will all this clamoring for Swiss billions:

A. Cause people to be more responsive to seeking out the plight of the
Jewish people through the Holocaust story?

B. Cause people to be more responsive to the revisionist side of
story?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Nov 16 07:00:12 PST 1996
Article: 79793 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.philosophy.objectivism,alt.politics.org.cia,alt.politics.org.fbi,sci.physics,alt.war,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Announce: Neutron Bomb--Its Unknown History and Moral Purpose
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:27:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.libertarian:233591 alt.philosophy.objectivism:91497 alt.politics.org.cia:14841 alt.politics.org.fbi:6416 sci.physics:111486 alt.war:24163 alt.revisionism:79793

>           New Book Available--Download for Free
>   Provocative, Educational, Entertaining, Enlightening
>
>             THE FATHER OF THE NEUTRON BOMB,
>           THE MOST MORAL WEAPON EVER INVENTED:
>     The Life and Times of the Neutron Bomb Inventor,
>                       Sam Cohen

>This is a great book. If you are interested in nuclear 
>weapons technology, scientific geniuses, military policy, 
>intelligence issues, 20th century US history, and behind-
>the-scenes politics, you will find this a fascinating and 
>enlightening book. Sam Cohen is a variously blunt, 
>brilliant, witty, down-to-earth iconoclast who pulls no 
>punches. But whether you are offended or not, whether you 
>are outraged or not, whether you agree or not, you are sure 
>to re-think some crucially important life-and-death issues, 
>and to get an unvarnished real-world perspective that is 
>nowhere else available.
>
>You can view the Table of Contents and get an original copy 
>of this book from this web site:
>
>    http://www.azstarnet.com/~schneik

	As to this site, and the "Table of Contents" to Cohen's book
presented within, much of it appears to be the work of a person out to
sell himself as magnificent. 
	His philosophical conclusions seem to have the standards of a
Neanderthal.

	No.5 of the mentioned "Table of Contents".

5. THROUGH THE NEUTRON LOOKING GLASS 
5.1 "let"s set the record straight" 
5.2 "fulfills the dream of civilized nations ? a weapon that restricts
the battle to the battlefield" 
5.3 "there will be no lingering radioactivity" 
5.4 "agony ? produced by having your body charred to a crisp by
napalm, your guts being ripped apart by shrapnel ? those other sweet
things that happen when conventional weapons ? are used" 
5.5 "we had no sensible plans for defending Europe" 
5.6 "the neutron bomb has to be the most moral weapon ever invented" 
(to be completed)
======================================================================


	Because of the neutron bomb's capability to destroy lives and not
property and leaving no lingering radio activity it would make it
easier for the mind to use it than other weapons.

	In this aspect, it is the most dangerous weapon on earth.

	Military units work in a dispersed deployments in the field. Thus
for use on military targets in the field it is not all that efficient,
in that many of them must be engaged. 

	The most likely use of the neutron bomb would to be to use it on
populated areas, either to kill off the population for eventual
occupation while leaving their developments intact, to just kill off
people in general or to use as a means of terrorist extortion.

	The neutron bomb "fulfills the dreams of civilized nations".

	Now there's a statement.

	A space program would be something that could be considered to be
a fulfillment of a society's dreams.

	Music and art would be another legitimate cause for fulfilling
any worthy dreams.

	Developing an example for the benevolence of man kind in general
could be the worthy dreams of a civilized society.

	It's hard to get a sense of fulfillment from a weapon that is
designed for wholesale slaughter of human beings and any other life
form that is in the vicinity of the target.

	In the Greek history, the meat of the historical review is on
their development of sciences and there architecural and artistic
accomplishments.

	For the United States it is much the same along with such things
as it's space program and our Constitution.

	Only a fool would consider the development of any weapon as a
premise for fulfilling the dreams of any society, "civilized" or not.	

	The quote attributed to Cohen in the Table of Contents, "the
neutron bomb has to be the most moral weapon ever invented" including
the one on fulfilling dreams, is the result of a particular thought
process that is passed on from one generation to another that is not
intended one iota for the benevolence of man kind in general.

		

	    


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Nov 16 07:00:13 PST 1996
Article: 79796 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bye, Bye, "Master Plan"?
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:34:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 146
Message-ID: <3293c26e.945369@199.0.216.204>
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>In article <32949867.5573294@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>         For anyone who would like to witness examples of allegations that
>> Germany had a master plan for the destruction of Jews, all that is
>> necessary is to read the intros to most books on the Holocaust.
>
>But didn't the Moran (tm) just post, in article
><3293973e.5276370@199.0.216.204>, that "Holocaust propagandists [are]
>citing the 'Wannasee [sic] Conference' [and] are out to show a
>premeditated master plan by Germany to exterminate all the Jews?"
>
>It appears that the Moran has, among more his other, sordid failings, an
>"attention deficit" problem. 
>
>Such is the (pathetic) life of a denier gadfly, it seems....
>
>>         "... fat for soap, hair for mattresses and bone for fertilizer"
>> was one of the most pre-eminent, forefront allegations of the
>> Holocaust story that even Jews have had to acquiesce to as being lies.
>
>As to the issue of the ersatz _Rein Judisch Fett_ (Pure Jewish Fat) soap
>rumor a little honesty seesm in order. (Something that the Moran (tm)
>seems incabable of embracing.) 
>
>For those interested in the truth, please visit:
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/stutthof/danzig-soap-evidence
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/stutthof/soap-photos
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/sereny.gitta/soap-experimentation
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/l/lipstadt.deborah/soap.05
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/stutthof/soap.01
>
>
>As to the issue of the use of human hair taken from concetration camp
>inmates, as well as the murdered victims, please visit:
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/dachau/use-of-hair
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/documents/no-1257

	This is what Nizkor is all about. To perpetuate tales of ghoul
that other Holocaust authorities don't care to include in their sales
presentations - anymore. Soap and mattresses from hair. One of the
most known 'facts' of the immediate post war rumor mill. The utmost
played on rumor next to the "gas chamber" aspect. Whatever Nizkor is
presenting you won't be seeing others give. This is the job of the
well financed "$1,500,000" Nizkor, there to carry on the extinct,
deleted rumors, so the others can have the cake and deny it too.  


>As to the issue of the bones of the murdered victims and their being used
>for fertilizer:
>
>The bones of the victims were pulverized so they would not be recognized
>as bones. The reason for this, according to Ho"ss, was that shortly after
>Himmler's summer of 1942 visit to Auschwitz Himmler gave the order for the
>mass graves (which contained about 100,000 corpses) be opened and the
>corpses cremated. The order further stated that all the ashes be disposed
>of 
>so that later it could not be determined how many victims were killed. 
>(_Death Dealer_, p.33.) Obviously, Himmlers orders were left standing 
>for the remainder of Auschwitz's operation.

	Mr. Ho'ss said all this? Mr.Ho'ss the one who said over 3,000,000
people were killed at Auschwitz? Was he the same one who ordered the
ashes to be scattered around on the camp paths to keep people from
slipping? Is he the one who ordered the ashes to be put into the walls
for insulation? Is he the one who ordered the ashes to be scattered
out in the fields for fertilizer? Is he the one who ordered the ashes
taken down to the rivers and thrown in? I realize that even some
dedicated to the Holocaust story have a opinion Mr.Ho'ss was crazy,
and that his diary might say one thing and his testimony might say
another, and that some of his testimony is now commonly recognized
among all as somewhat fabricated, but he couldn't have been that much
of a wild man with the ashes.	

	Perhaps all the tales of ashes are really only the figment of
multiple testimonies. 

	At Majdanek the ashes (and many bones) were hidden under manure
piles and dug into gardens.

	At other camps they were left in situ where the bodies were
burned.

	Why thanks, Mr.VanAlstine. You have reminded me of another aspect
of the Holocaust pot pourri story line.

>Just as obviously, disposing of the victims' remains to hide the fact that
>at Auschwitz, for example, the hundreds of thousands of people were
>murdered in homicidal gas chambers would have hardly made sense if the
>Nazis allowed tons of intact and  recognizable human bones to be openly
>scattered across the fields- and  paths. Ergo, the bones were pulverized.
>
>But why scatter gritty ashes across the fields? Hardly surprising, aside
>from the Nazi intent to hide their heinous deed, when one remembers that
>many of the satellite camps of Auschwitz were farm steads and agricultural
>research camps. Ash, of course, especially bone ash (which is mainly
>calcium phosphate), makes great fertilizer. (Same for bone meal, i.e.
>finely ground bone, which is used even today as an animal feed stock and
>fertilizer.) 
>
>bone ash - A white ash consisting primarily of tribasic calcium phosphate
>obtained by burning bones in air; used in cleaning jewelry and in some
>pottery. 
>
>calcium phosphate - 1. Any phosphate of calcium. 2. Any of the following
>three calcium orthophosphates, all of which are white or colorless in pure
>form: Ca(H2PO4)2 is used as a fertilizer, as a plastics stabilizer, and in
>baking powder, and is also know as acid calcium phosphate, calcium
>dihydrogen phosphate, monobasic calcium phosphate, monocalcium phosphate;
>CaHPO4 is uded in pharmaceuticals, animal feeds, and toothpastes, and is
>also known as calcium hydrogen phosphate, dibasic calcium phosphate,
>dicalcium orthophosphate, dicalcium phosphate; Ca3(PO4)2 is used as a
>fertilizer, and is also known as tribasic calcium phosphate, tricalcium
>phosphate.

	Now this last out of breath flurry of such things as "calcium
orthophosphates", "Ca3(PO4)2" and "tribasic calcium phosphate" really
is impressive.

	One should wonder, what with all these wonderful resources that
can be gotten from the crushed bone and ash, why the Germans would
have taken to scattering them around on the paths in the camp,
stuffing it into walls or taking it down to ponds or rivers to be
disposed of. I wonder if Mr. VanAlstine could come up with a rough
estimate of how much of the ash and bone was committed to the fields.


>_McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Chemical Terms_.
>
>See also:
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/crematoria/burning-pits
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/burning-pit.jpg
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka/images/treblinka-grave-02.jpg
>
>
>As to the issue of lies and liars:

The rest of Mr.VanAlstine's 'response' is deleted in order not to
stress Internet resources any more than necessary. The exact same
lines can be found under perhaps 7 or 8 current posts on
alt.revisionism.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Nov 16 07:00:13 PST 1996
Article: 79823 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Bye, Bye, "Master Plan"?
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 14:53:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	There must be hundreds of examples that claim the Holocaust was
the result of a master plan by Hitler and the Germans to kill all the
Jews. Now we are starting to see examples of claims that say it was an
off shoot result of the German invasion of Russia. 

	Evidently their counting on the newly released documents from
Russian archives to show millions more were killed in Russia by German
police and not necessarily by the SS, with it all becoming the
precedence for the eventual establishment of "extermination camps".

	The one thing we can come to recognize when researching the truth
or falsity of the Holocaust story is that there is nothing to show
there was a master plan. The whole story, the result of 99% eyewitness
testimony, has the extermination system being run in such a haphazard
way it is obvious it can not be shown to be the result of a master
plan with premeditated organization. The whole Holocaust story is the
composite of eyewitness testimonies.

	Thus, if one eyewitness testimony says they had under ground gas
chambers at one camp, another saying they were rooms off a corridor
with large back doors for unloading the bodies at another camp,
another saying there were tilting floors to dump out the bodies at
another camp, then this is what the story is made up of. This is the
Holocaust story.

	Thus too, if eyewitness testimonies tell us the Germans used a
diesel engine from a Russian tank to generate carbon monxide at one
camp, a Russian submarine engine at another, tanks of carbon monoxide
at another, fumigation pellets at another, mostly shooting at another,
then this is what constitutes the story. This is the Holocaust stew
brewed by multiple chefs who didn't know what each other was putting
in.

	Once we recognize how the story is put together, we can
understand why the story lacks anything that could suggest a master
plan. 

	Now all we have to do is wait and see if this new alibi for no
master plan will become a full blown 'revision'. You know. Complete
with the denials that any master plan was ever claimed.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 19 06:47:26 PST 1996
Article: 79846 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 7.25 million = 19,900 a day
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:23:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	From "Russians transfer archives to USHMM" posted by McVay of
Nizkor.

	"Their museum,[U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum] founded in 1980 by
an act of Congress, aims to promote an understanding of the Holocaust
and to serve as a memorial to its victims. The museum receives some
7.25 million visitors annually, 80 percent of them non-Jewish."

-- 
Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
kmcvay@nizkor.org   
==================================================================

	7,250,000 a year divided by 363 days = 19,900 a day. (Museum
closed Yom Kippur and Christmas) 

	19,800 a day, divided by 8 1/2 hours = 2,300 an hour. (Hours,
10:00 to 5:30)

	Considering off seasons and peak seasons, we could imagine on
some days it would be 10,000 a day in off season and 40,000 a day at
peak season.

	Considering off hours like when it first opens up and when it is
nearing closing hours we might get the idea 19,900 would be further
squeezed into 8 hours, giving us 2,500 an hour, 40 people a minute, or
2 people every 3 seconds.

	Surely we might get the idea that the people would stay for at
least an hour, which would put over 2,000 people in the building at
any given time, for the over all average, and over 4,000 during peak
times.

	Perhaps more people arrive on weekends, in which case we could
ball park a number like 50,000 a day, almost 6,000 an hour.

	Whatever, just using the numbers McVay offers and the base time
factors, we can imagine a steady stream of vistors flowing generally
>from  the Mall area towards the museum and a steady stream flowing away
>from  it.  A continuous mass migration.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
	
	As a vistor to the Holocaust Museum in Washington on four
different occasions (4 different days in 2 seasons) I consider these
numbers to be ... a wopping gross exaggeration - a lie.
	

	
		


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 19 06:47:27 PST 1996
Article: 79855 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.philosophy.objectivism,alt.politics.org.cia,alt.politics.org.fbi,sci.physics,alt.war,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Announce: Neutron Bomb--Its Unknown History and Moral Purpose
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:28:17 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 28
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>tom moran wrote:
>>         During the Gulf War build up, there appeared some 45 vcolumns in
>> the N.Y. and L.A. Times calling for the U.S. to bash Israel's enemy
>> Iraq.
>> 
>>         Of the 45 columns, 42 of them were by Jews.
>[snip]
>
>Do we smell a little anti-semitism here?  After all, Iraq and the other
>Arab nations have sworn again and again since 1948 to 'push the Jews
>into the sea', and have tried to do so a number of times.  Is it any
>wonder the Jews (I'm not Jewish) would have ill feelings toward Iraq?

	"Anti-Semitism" you "smell", you say? Maybe you can expand on it.


	Maybe while your at that you could explain or excuse how it
happens that Jews who make up barely 2% of the American population
wrote 85% of the columns in the nations two largest newspapers calling
for war on Iraq, the enemy of the Jewish state of Israel.

	Are you going to say they submitted the stuff for the good of
America and it had nothing to do with personal ethnocentric motives? 

>-- 
>Judson McClendon
>Sun Valley Systems    judsonmc@ix.netcom.com



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 19 06:47:28 PST 1996
Article: 79859 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 7.25 million = 19,900 a day
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:16:25 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 39
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>
>	From "Russians transfer archives to USHMM" posted by McVay of
>Nizkor.
>
>	"Their museum,[U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum] founded in 1980 by
>an act of Congress, aims to promote an understanding of the Holocaust
>and to serve as a memorial to its victims. The museum receives some
>7.25 million visitors annually, 80 percent of them non-Jewish."
>
>-- 
>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   
>==================================================================
>
>	7,250,000 a year divided by 363 days = 19,900 a day. (Museum
>closed Yom Kippur and Christmas) 
>
>	19,800 a day, divided by 8 1/2 hours = 2,300 an hour. (Hours,
>10:00 to 5:30)

	Sorry. Moran went to an American school. This is why he
miscalculated the hours above. It should read 7 1/2 hours, which now
makes the whole assertion of 7,250,000 visitors a year even more
ridiculous. With the corrected hours, the hourly figure would be 2600
visiors an hour.

>	Considering off seasons and peak seasons, we could imagine on
>some days it would be 10,000 a day in off season and 40,000 a day at
>peak season.
>
>	Considering off hours like when it first opens up and when it is
>nearing closing hours we might get the idea 19,900 would be further
>squeezed into 8 hours, giving us 2,500 an hour, 40 people a minute, or
>2 people every 3 seconds.

	Considering the correction, it would be 47 people a minute on
average entering into the museum, just short of one person per second.




From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 19 06:47:29 PST 1996
Article: 79913 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kube Also Reports: Ten Weeks, 55,000 Murdered
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:30:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <32912afa.1518511@199.0.216.204>
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>
>From: tom moran, tm@pacificnet.net
>
>: 	Of all the talk about no trail showing that Hitler had a direct
>: hand in the exterminations, we have this letter that cites "at the
>: Fuehrers orders".
>:
>:	This letter is a phony.
>
>
>And your reasons for claiming so are?

        Of all the talk about no trail showing that Hitler had a
direct hand in the exterminations, we have this letter that cites "at
the Fuehrers orders".

	Here in the Holocaust story we have this incredible lack of
evidence to show Hitler was behind all that is alleged, and right here
we have this letter that clearly states "at the Fuehrers orders". I
have seen another letter with the same kind of wording. 

	As of late the new trend for the Holocaust perpetuators is to
show it wasn't a master plan, that it was something that just sort of
began to happen, now explicitly in Russia, in order to alibl why there
isn't any trail to the high command.

	What with all the talk about it all being a secret it isn't
likely some underling would commit himself to write in a letter "at
the Fuehrers orders".

	It's ridiculous.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 19 06:47:29 PST 1996
Article: 79924 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 'Ordinary Jews: Zionism's Willing Torturers'
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 15:06:06 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 39
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	"Israel Allows Use of Physical Force in Arab's Interrogation"

                       N.Y.Times, Nov.16, 1996

	The day after the Israeli High Court issued a temporary
injunction preventing the use of 'physical pressure' in the
interrogation of a Palestinian detainee, it acceded to an appeal from
the secret police to continue using methods that, according to
human-rights groups, constitutes torture."

	The article goes on to report that civil rights groups complain
with the Jewish civil rights group saying, "Mr.Rosenthal said what he
and other human-rights lawyers had been seeking was not so much a ban
on force, but a review by the court of limits of the law, and making
public the criteria for using force."

	"Physical pressure" is torture. The Jewish state of Israel
condones and even legalizes torture. The whole system is in on it.
>From  the top to the bottom.

	But wait. Is Moran committing an "anti-Semitism" here? 

	After all it is declared, "Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism".


	Perhaps the likes of the ADL and brethren organizations and
persons that seem to be the main, if not the only parties that
submitted and endorsed the U.S. "Omnibus Counter Terrorism Act" should
put in one of their typical full page ads plugging for such measures
here in the U.S.

	Does this mean that the U.S. Lackey Congress that typically votes
unanimously for Jewish causes supports the use of torture? 

     Perhaps they could allot an attachment to the current billions
given unconditionally to the Zionist process for the research and
development of torture methods.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 19 06:47:30 PST 1996
Article: 80053 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.philosophy.objectivism,alt.politics.org.cia,alt.politics.org.fbi,sci.physics,alt.war,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Announce: Neutron Bomb--Its Unknown History and Moral Purpose
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:04:07 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <329185b8.790590@199.0.216.204>
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>           New Book Available--Download for Free
>   Provocative, Educational, Entertaining, Enlightening
>
>             THE FATHER OF THE NEUTRON BOMB,
>           THE MOST MORAL WEAPON EVER INVENTED:
>     The Life and Times of the Neutron Bomb Inventor,
>                       Sam Cohen
>
>Sam Cohen is retired after a forty year career in nuclear 
>weapon issues. 

	During the Gulf War build up, there appeared some 45 vcolumns in
the N.Y. and L.A. Times calling for the U.S. to bash Israel's enemy
Iraq.

	Of the 45 columns, 42 of them were by Jews.

	One of them was Sam Cohen.

	He called for using the neutron bomb. 

	"Use Neutron Bomb on Iraq?"

	The answer was yes.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 19 06:47:31 PST 1996
Article: 80083 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cremation Rates
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:34:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <32959979.5846876@199.0.216.204>
References: <3285fa37.2511006@news.zippo.com> <565fe3$bk6@news.enter.net> <328c424a.4704216@199.0.216.204> <328967DF.5DFE@west.net> <328adbc5.674533@199.0.216.204> <3289e5a3.656176@news.srv.ualberta.ca><3285fa37.2511006@news.zippo.com> <565fe3$bk6@news.enter.net> <328c424a.4704216@199.0.216.204> <328967DF.5DFE@west.net> <328adbc5.674533@199.0.216.204> <3289e5a3.656176@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <328c25ed.226126@199.0.216.204> <56hsbd$rhu$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
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>In message <328c25ed.226126@199.0.216.204> - tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)Thu,
>14 Nov 1996 14:02:00 GMT writes:
>:>
>:>>In <328adbc5.674533@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>:>>wrote:
>
>[deleted]
>
>:>	The fact is, none of these alleged studies are given in ready
>:>accessible publications in a thorough way.
>:>
>:>	The way to do a study would require study of the core sample
>:>cross sections to see if the regolithic sequence had been disturbed.
>:>Pipers statement is so vague and short it is obvious there is nothing
>:>that would warrant a thorough publication of the procedures and
>:>findings of the probes.
>
>Does anyone really think that the idiot Moron is writing this stuff himself?  
>
>Obviously one of the recently departed deniers, able to read (which Moron is
>not), is feeding this rubbish to him.  A killfile candidate if there ever was
>one.

	I guess if you can't come up with anything direct, just announce
something childish.
	I take it to mean you won't be 'responding', in your own little
way, in the future?  

>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 19 06:47:32 PST 1996
Article: 80104 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cremation Rates
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 14:52:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <328d83ad.267594@199.0.216.204>
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Even if the "factor of two" were correct, we might say
># 4 bodies in one hour. 
>
>4 an hour, times 46 furnaces in Birkenau, times, say, 12
>working hours a day, is 2,208 corpses a day. 

	"12 working hours"? The story has it that the ovens were going
continuously to catch up with the numbers killed.

># Lets say 100 a day, per oven. At Majdenek it is said they
># could cremate 24 an hour, 576 a day in just one oven.
>
>This is most probably an overestimate. But this is not really
>relevant. What is relevant is the true figure of corpses that
>could be burned, and this figure is so high that it cannot
>be explained by anything but mass murder.

	"Most probably"? "...not really relevant"? Sure it's relevant. As
I said, why wouldn't the Germans have built these same kind of ovens
at Auschwitz? 

	You say it's "most probably an overestimate". I say it's down
right fabrication. A lie. 

	We shouldn't overlook the "4,000,000 Variant" which was the
Russian estimate for Auschwitz ovens, which is now accepted as being
so wrong that 3,000,000 people were deleted from the story. We
shouldn't overlook that this number prevailed for 50 years.

	The cremation rates are the enemy of the Holocaust story.

	You can wail and gnash your teeth all you want out here on this
format, but when it all is presented to the open mind, it is one of
big convincing points for revisionism.

	
># Also, can you post the URL for the cremation website.
>
>http://www.cremation.org
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 19 06:47:33 PST 1996
Article: 80106 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now it's SEVEN !?! million
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 14:54:14 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 20
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	From "Russians transfer archives to USHMM" posted by McVay. An
account about KGB archives being transferred to the Holocaust Museum
in Washington D.C.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

"Vladimir Naumov, a distinguished Russian archivist, said the
documents showed that responsibility for the atrocities was not
limited to the  murder squads but pervaded the whole German army from
the lowest to the most senior ranks.

He said the materials would help historians get a clearer idea of how
many Jews perished at Nazi hands, adding that he believed the figure
exceeded the generally cited 6 million to 7 million computed after the

war."
======================================================================

	Now it's even getting higher than 7,000,000.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 19 06:47:33 PST 1996
Article: 80128 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Ordinary Jews: Zionism's Willing Torturers'
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:21:56 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 49
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>	
>	"Israel Allows Use of Physical Force in Arab's Interrogation"
>
>                       N.Y.Times, Nov.16, 1996
>
>	The day after the Israeli High Court issued a temporary
>injunction preventing the use of 'physical pressure' in the
>interrogation of a Palestinian detainee, it acceded to an appeal from
>the secret police to continue using methods that, according to
>human-rights groups, constitutes torture."
>
>	The article goes on to report that civil rights groups complain
>with the Jewish civil rights group saying, "Mr.Rosenthal said what he
>and other human-rights lawyers had been seeking was not so much a ban
>on force, but a review by the court of limits of the law, and making
>public the criteria for using force."
>
>	"Physical pressure" is torture. The Jewish state of Israel
>condones and even legalizes torture. The whole system is in on it.
>From the top to the bottom.
>
>	But wait. Is Moran committing an "anti-Semitism" here? 
>
>	After all it is declared, "Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism".
>
>
>	Perhaps the likes of the ADL and brethren organizations and
>persons that seem to be the main, if not the only parties that
>submitted and endorsed the U.S. "Omnibus Counter Terrorism Act" should
>put in one of their typical full page ads plugging for such measures
>here in the U.S.

	A few years ago there was an incident where an American youth was
sentenced to be caned in Indonesia for defacing cars. There was much
said about it in the medias. Amid it all there appeared two columns
accommodated by the L.A.Times, each one raising arguments for corporal
punishment in the U.S. School systems. One was by Alan Derchowitz and
the other was by Ex-N.Y. City mayor Koch, both Jews. 
	It seems that the 100% of the columns calling for the physical
abuse of children in our school system was from those who make up less
than 2% of the American population. 

	How it came to be the L.A.Times located on the west coast gave
accommodation for words from two Jews on the east coast shows where
the paper is at.
	
>	Does this mean that the U.S. Lackey Congress that typically votes
>unanimously for Jewish causes supports the use of torture? 



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 19 06:47:34 PST 1996
Article: 80131 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.philosophy.objectivism,alt.politics.org.cia,alt.politics.org.fbi,sci.physics,alt.war,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Announce: Neutron Bomb--Its Unknown History and Moral Purpose
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 14:58:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <328f24eb.280117@199.0.216.204>
References:  <329185b8.790590@199.0.216.204> <328CCF2B.75AB@ix.netcom.com> <328fc15c.670799@199.0.216.204> 
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>In article <328fc15c.670799@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>> >tom moran wrote:
>> >>         During the Gulf War build up, there appeared some 45 vcolumns in
>> >> the N.Y. and L.A. Times calling for the U.S. to bash Israel's enemy
>> >> Iraq.

>> >>         Of the 45 columns, 42 of them were by Jews.

>And would you care to explain HOW you know they are Jewish?

>Sara

	I have been following the Zionist propaganda for 18 years. I know
who is Jewish in the network and who isn't. Of the 45 columns, there
were about 15 different writers, some writing a few columns of the
total 45. Maybe in a couple of days I can dig up the list and I will
give to you. Then you can make further comment.

Some of the names are:

William Safire

The Tofflers

A. M. Rosenthal

Henry Kissinger

Sam Cohen



	Of the non-Jewish writers, there was: 

The sleezy little Jeanne Kirkpatrick, who had a history of excusing
Zionist practices.

	The interesting thing is, that there weren't the number of
previous non-Jews who have a history of acting the Zionist
propagandist, such as George Will, Willian F. Buckley and others.

	In fact, since that time there have been very few non-Jewish
columns coming out to play excuser for Israel.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 19 06:47:35 PST 1996
Article: 80242 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Ordinary Jews: Zionism's Willing Torturers'
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:22:12 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <329a7cfd.2321020@199.0.216.204>
References: <3298cf04.4166720@199.0.216.204> <56nutm$dk1@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
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>In article <3298cf04.4166720@199.0.216.204>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>[Excerpt from article in N.Y.Times, Nov.16, 1996 as quoted by Mr. Moran
>deleted.]
>
>>	"Physical pressure" is torture. The Jewish state of Israel
>>condones and even legalizes torture. The whole system is in on it.
>>From the top to the bottom.
>>
>>	But wait. Is Moran committing an "anti-Semitism" here? 
>>
>>	After all it is declared, "Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism".
>
>I agree with Mr. Moran that physical pressure is torture and I agree
>that it is despicable that the Israeli Government has condoned such a
>practice.  I am willing to bet that no one calls me an antisemite for
>saying that.

	It's obvious this post would be difficult to challenge, even with
the massive dose of "chutzpah"(child logic), so I can understand
Mr.Green's having to agree.

>I find it interesting, however, that Mr. Moran chooses to focus on the
>shortcomings of the Israeli Government.  Perhaps, Mr. Moran would like
>to comment on the use of torture by China, Guetamala or other countries.

	But then Mr.Green raises a point that perhaps Moran is just
singling out Israel as opposed to other nations that may officially
impose torture. Moran is against forced interrogations from whoever.
But then Moran recognizes that the U.S. Congress readily supports
Israel with massive doses of military and $$$$$$$$$ aid.
	Is Mr.Green now comparing Israel to Guatamala? Seems so.


>By the way, what does this have to do with the historicity of the
>holocaust?

	Israel is the child of the Holocaust story. The Jews are
constantly telling us how decent they are and how terrible the Germans
were. Where is the righteous ADL. Where is one of their full page ads
condemning the torture?

	Holocaust/Israel/Zionism/Self proclaimation of ultimate
righteousness/Hypocrisy.

	The Holocaust and Zionism go together like peanut butter and
jelly.

>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>
>-- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud   Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>"Remember the days of yore,
>"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
>       -Deuteronomy 32:7



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 19 06:47:35 PST 1996
Article: 80251 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Numero Uno Witness - Torture/Confession/Admissions
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:27:31 GMT
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	Material from Institute for Historical Review archives.
	
	Rudolf Hoss

Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoss is often cited as one of the most
important witnesses to the "Holocaust," if not the most important. His
affidavit and testimony were quoted extensively both by the
prosecution and in the judgment of the International Military
Tribunal at Nuremberg. It was this affidavit, and his later
confirmation of its truthfulness, that laid the foundation for and
validated the extermination story of Auschwitz. His affidavit read, in
part: (note 1) 

     I, Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Hoss, being first duly sworn, depose
and say as follows:

     2. ... I commanded Auschwitz until 1 December 1943, and estimate
that at least 2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there
by gassing and burning, and at least another half million succumbed to
starvation and disease making a total dead of about 3,000,000. This
figure represents about 70% or 80% of all persons sent to Auschwitz as
prisoners, the remainder having been selected and used for slave labor
in the concentration camp industries. 

When Hoss testified at the Nuremberg trial, this portion of the
affidavit was read to him, and he reaffirmed its accuracy: (note 2) 

     DR. KAUFFMANN: ... From 1940 to 1943, you were the Commander of
the camp at Auschwitz. Is that true?

     Hoss: Yes.

     COL. AMEN: I will omit the first paragraph and start with
Paragraph 2 [of Hoss' affidavit, the text of which is shown above].

     "I commanded Auschwitz until 1 December 1943, [etc.] ..." This is
all true, Witness?

     Hoss: Yes, it is. 

This sworn testimony figured prominently in the decision of the
Tribunal. (note 3) 

Since then, Hoss' testimony and affidavit have been heavily relied
upon by "Holocaust" researchers from Raul Hilberg to Jean-Claude
Pressac. Hundreds of histories, testimonies, and treatments of the
Third Reich era quote Hoss to show the brutality and evilness of the
Nazis.

Visitors to the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum are confronted with a
plaque bearing Hoss' words upon entering the Museum. 

We now know that Hoss was beaten almost to death by Jewish members of
the British Field Police upon capture and badly mistreated thereafter
until he gave his "affidavit" and "testimony."
His wife and children were threated with deportation to Siberia. (note
4) 

     Clarke yelled: 'What is your name?'

     With each answer of 'Franz Lang,' Clarke's hand crashed into the
face of his prisoner. The fourth time that happened, Hoss broke and
admitted who he was.

     The admission suddenly unleashed the loathing of the Jewish
sergeants in the arresting party whose parents had died in Auschwitz
following an order signed by Hoss.

     The prisoner was torn from the top bunk, the pajamas ripped from
his body. He was then dragged naked to one of the slaughter tables,
where it seemed to Clarke the blows and screams were endless.

     Eventually, the Medical Officer urged the Captain: 'Call them
off, unless you want to take back a corpse.'

     ... The party arrived by at Heide around three in the morning.
The snow was swirling still, but the blanket was torn from Hoss and he
was made to walk completely nude through the prison yard to his cell.

     It took three days to get a coherent statement out of him. But
once he started talking, there was no holding him.

He also spoke of his mistreatment in his "autobiography." (note 5) 

     I was taken to Heide where I was put in those very barracks from
which I had been released by the British eight months earlier.

     At my first interrogation, evidence was obtained by beating me. I
do not know what is in the record, although I signed it. Alcohol and
the whip were too much for me. The whip was my own, which by chance
had got into my wife's luggage. It had hardly ever touched my horse,
far less the prisoners. Nevertheless, one of my interrogators was
convinced that I had perpetually used it for flogging the prisoners.

     After some days I was taken to Minden-on-the-Weser, the main
interrogation center in the British Zone. There I received further
rough treatment at the hands of the English public prosecutor, a
major.

     The conditions in the prison accorded with this behavior. 

Although historians were careful not to examine the implications of
Hoss' torture, some realized the problems with Hoss' claims, and made
adjustments accordingly: 

     Raul Hilberg referred to Hoss' statements both in his 1961 book
The Destruction of European Jewry, and in his massive, three-volume
second (and supposedly definitive) 1985 edition. 
     Jean-Claude Pressac likewise relies heavily on Hoss, but rather
than avoiding the trouble spots, simply "corrects" Hoss. 
     Stephen Paskuly, editor of a recently-released edition of Hoss'
diary and other writings, "corrects" Hoss as well. 
     Eugen Kogon, in Nazi Mass Murder, "corrects" Hoss' memory of
dates.


Historians today are finally admitting that Hoss is an unreliable
witness. The figures of dead he gave for Auschwitz are totally false.
He swore that 2,500,000 people were gassed and burned at Auschwitz and
a further half million died of disease for a total dead of 3,000,000.
Today, the figure of dead claimed for Auschwitz is 800,000 to
1,100,000, a figure that is in danger of further downward revisions.
Hoss also spoke of a concentration camp by the name of "Wolzek," which
does not and never did exist. 

With the growing popularity of Holocaust revisionism, more and more
people from outside the ranks of traditional historians are looking
critically at Holocaust claims, many for the first time. 

Christopher Hitchens is one such person. After hearing that there were
questions about the Hoss testimony, Hitchens examined the revisionist
position, and questioned some leading Holocaust scholars about the
revisionist claims, Hitchens wrote: (note 6) 

     ... The revisionists sent me an article by a Frenchman named
Robert Faurisson, which claimed that Rudolf Hoss, one of the
commandants of Auschwitz, had been tortured by the British into
confessing to a fantastic and unbelievable number of murders. 'I
declare herewith under oath that in the years 1941 to 1943, during
my tenure in office as commandant of Auschwitz Concentration Camp, 2
million Jews were put to death by gassing and 1/2 million by other
means.' This statement, specially mounted and reproduced, is an
important exhibit at the Holocaust Memorial.

     I then got in touch with [Deborah] Lipstadt and [Christopher]
Browning for their responses, which were surprising: 'Hoss was always
a very weak and confused witness,' said Browning, who has been an
expert witness at trials involving Auschwitz.
     'The revisionists use him all the time for this reason, in order
to try and discredit the memory of Auschwitz as a whole.' And
Professor Lipstadt directed me to page 188 of her book, which is quite
a page. It says that the stories about the Nazis making Jews into soap
are entirely untrue, and it also says that while the memorial stone at
     Auschwitz itself lists the number of victims -- Jews and non-Jews
-- at 4 million, the truer figure is somewhere between 1.5 and 2
million. Since Hoss was the commandant of the place for only part of
its existence, this means that -- according to the
counter-revisionists -- an important piece of evidence in the
Holocaust Memorial is not reliable. A vertiginous sensation if you
like.

     'It's the same with the soap story,' said Lipstadt. 'I get
protests from survivors, saying that I shouldn't admit it's not true,
because it gives ammunition to the enemy. But I'm only interested in
getting at the truth.' An old-fashioned concept.


But as we have shown, it is not the revisionists who have used Hoss'
affidavit and testimony, but rather the traditional "Holocaust"
historians. It is only through the efforts of the revisionists that we
have begun to catch a glimpse of the true value of Hoss' affidavit and
testimony. In a meeting between French revisionist Robert Faurisson
and Michael Berenbaum, an official of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial
Museum in September 1994, Berenbaum admitted to Faurisson in front of
witnesses that the Hoss quote on display at the Museum was misleading,
and that it would be taken down. 

Notes

   1.Nazi Conspiracy And Aggression. Nuremberg, Germany; United States
Government
     Printing Office, 1946. Volume VI, page 787. Translation of
Document
3868-PS. 
   2.Trial Of The Major War Criminals. Nuremberg, Germany; United
States
Government
     Printing Office; 1947. Volume XI, Proceedings 8 April 1946-17
April
1946; page 396. 
   3.USSR-8, 3868-PS (USA-819), NI-034, 008-USSR. IMT, Vol. 39, pp.
241,
261.; IMT, vol. 7,
     p. 589; NMT, vol. 5, p. 1131; NO-1210 
   4.Legions Of Death. (Rupert Butler. Great Britain: 1983. Hamlyn
Paperbacks; page 237). 
   5.Commandant Of Auschwitz. (London: 1959. Weidenfeld and Nicolson;
page 174.) Recently
     re-released with additional material as Death Dealer by
Prometheus
Books. 
   6."Whose History Is It?" (Christopher Hitchens. Vanity Fair,
December
1993; pages 117). 





From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 19 06:47:36 PST 1996
Article: 80273 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now it's SEVEN !?! million
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:45:23 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 24
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>Chuck Ferree writes:
>
>I watched the film also. Overall good piece of work. 
>So now the hair-splitting begins as to whether or not the numbers 
>increased to seven million mean that the Holocaust is a hoax, in the 
>minds of some turkeys out there. Six million, seven million, no one 
>knows, so the argument is nonsense. I'm willing to accept any number 
>over 12 million. I can't prove it and nobody can disprove it.
>
>Chuck

	Chuck, why don't you proceed to prove whatever number you can
prove.


>Rajiv K. Gandhi wrote:
>> 
>> In article <3288E0B7.4C48@copper-mt.com>, jrh@copper-mt.com wrote:
>> 
>> > Watched the Eichman movie on cable the other night.  The postscript text
>> > stated that the death toll from the "holocaust" was 7 million.  Having
>> > watched these estimates grow from 1.5 million in the sixties to six
>> > million in recent years I guess I shouldn't be surprised.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 19 06:47:37 PST 1996
Article: 80297 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cremation Rates
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 13:31:15 GMT
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># You can wail and gnash your teeth all you want out here on
># this format, but when it all is presented to the open mind,
># it is one of big convincing points for revisionism.
>
>Sigh. Tommy, you yourself supported the figure of 4 per hour
>in one muffle. Assuming *only* 12 hours of operation per day,
>this was enough to burn over 2,000 corpses in the 46 furnaces
>at Birkenau, in one day.

	"Supported"? No way. I gave you the benefit of the doubt to
expediate the process of dialogue. I support maybe 2 bodies an hour,
still giving the great accomodation to the story in relation to
present day ovens. 

	"2000" a day still leaves from 10,000 to 20,000 bodies a day to
get rid of, beyond the oven capacities.

	The ovens are said to have been used on a continuous basis, 24
hours a day. This would make the numbers, using your figures, 4000 a
day, still 8,000 to 18,000 short of what was needed.

	We don't want to overlook the fact we are talking about numbers I
gave accomodation to for the sake of expediency. The numbers are far
higher and thus more unrealistic in the Holocaust story.

>Can you provide any rational explanation as to why a "work
>camp", with a population of a few tens-of-thousands, needed
>such incredible cremation capacity?

	Having learned their lesson from previous typhus epidemics it is
probable the Germans would have built more ovens for contingency
purposes. Just because there were 46 ovens doesn't mean they used them
all on a continuous basis. It could have been two or three were used
at any particular time and maybe all them at other times.

	Even your previous paragraph raises the question of why would the
Germans build ovens that could only accomodate 20% to 10% of the
bodies said to have been killed on a daily basis? Don't try to come
back and say they underestimated. There is too much other stuff to
challenge that if you try, including the fact it is said they built
four major buildings to exterminate and cremate, which would suggest
they would be expecting a great horde.

	All this was fine for the previous assertions of how many people
could be killed and cremated until the "4 million variant" was
challenged and driven into the dust.

	 

>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Nov 20 06:03:36 PST 1996
Article: 80506 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cremation Rates
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:46:34 GMT
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References: <3285fa37.2511006@news.zippo.com> <565fe3$bk6@news.enter.net> <328c424a.4704216@199.0.216.204> <328967DF.5DFE@west.net> <328adbc5.674533@199.0.216.204> <3289e5a3.656176@news.srv.ualberta.ca><3285fa37.2511006@news.zippo.com> <565fe3$bk6@news.enter.net> <328c424a.4704216@199.0.216.204> <328967DF.5DFE@west.net> <328adbc5.674533@199.0.216.204> <3289e5a3.656176@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <328c25ed.226126@199.0.216.204> <56hsbd$rhu$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net><3285fa37.2511006@news.zippo.com> <565fe3$bk6@news.enter.net> <328c424a.4704216@199.0.216.204> <328967DF.5DFE@west.net> <328adbc5.674533@199.0.216.204> <3289e5a3.656176@news.srv.ualberta.ca><3285fa37.2511006@news.zippo.com> <565fe3$bk6@news.enter.net> <328c424a.4704216@199.0.216.204> <328967DF.5DFE@west.net> <328adbc5.674533@199.0.216.204> <3289e5a3.656176@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <328c25ed.226126@199.0.216.204> <56hsbd$rhu$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <32959979.5846876@199.0.216.204> <56jbu5$1l56$1@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
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>How's the wife and kids?

	Why do you 'ask'?

>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Nov 20 06:03:37 PST 1996
Article: 80508 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:47:01 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:/

Mr.Beaulieu:

>  My guess it that this gesture smell frustration, but.... could anyone
> explain me which part is so much shocking? I've the impression that
>  you're playing comedy here.

	Mr. Beaulieu, I would say their just doing the best they can.
Trying to defend lies is no easy job.

	I read your post. I never saw "Shoah". But if and when I do, I'm
going to listen real close to what they have to saw as to what the
conditions of the interview were, and then I'm going to look for the
points you have made. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Nov 20 06:03:38 PST 1996
Article: 80513 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Bug in the System Known As Revisionism
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:01:08 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:49792 alt.revisionism:80513

>The Bug in the System Known As Revisionism
>
>The revisionists didn't say that Hitler did anything wrong.

"Wrong"?



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Nov 20 10:25:48 PST 1996
Article: 80619 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.philosophy.objectivism,alt.politics.org.cia,alt.politics.org.fbi,sci.physics,alt.war,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Announce: Neutron Bomb--Its Unknown History and Moral Purpose
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	So what happened to the original poster, Conrad Schneiker?


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 25 06:31:00 PST 1996
Article: 80745 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Numero Uno Witness - Torture/Confession/Admissions
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 04:36:07 GMT
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	This is a slight rewrite of the post in the thread. The first
version is the result of Holocaust shock, which happens when you try
to convey something out of the roller coaster Holocaust numbers and
testimony.
======================================================================

	Mr.Ho'ss' numbers of 3,000,000 are for up to Dec.1, 1943, when he
left Auschwitz as it's commandant. Another 400,000 (Hungarian Jews)
are said to have been liquidated after that and possibly more. The
figure for Auschwitz-Birkenau ended up being 4,000,000. The figure now
is said to be around 1,000,000.

	Where does this new figure fit in with Ho'ss testimony of
3,000,000?

	Mr.Ho'ss' testimony implies the 3,000,000 were killed at
Auschwitz up to Dec.1, 1943.

	The total number that was accepted at Nuremberg was 4,000,000.

	This would put 1,000,000 more after his leaving as commandant.

	So where does this all fit in with the current figure of
1,000,000?

	Now if it refers to the million that is in addition to or after
Ho'ss' tour of duty, then this would make the 3,000,000 now deleted
all those that Ho'ss testified to, thus making him 100% wrong or  -
lying.

	Maybe he miscalculated and it was really 3,500,000 before he
left, which would make it 500,000 after he left to add up to the
4,000,000 which would show his figure for 3,000,000 being off by
2,500,000, or 85%.

	Accomodating the Holocaust we can focus on the 85% figure since
it is a little less absurd than the possible 100% figure. If Ho'ss had
been off by only, say 2%, or even 15%, then this might be an
acceptable possible mistake. But when he's off by 85%, then we can see
that he was not telling the truth, that he was committing false
testimony, perhaps the most incredible false testimony in the history
of man kind, that 3,000,000 people were murdered.
	
	What about anything else he had to say? The Zyklon B testimony?
He seems to be the ultimate source for the introduction of this into
the story. He's the one who testified that the first use of Zyklon B
was performed while he was away, to return and find out that his
second in command had tried it out.

	Now was this testimony on Zyklon B totally on the initiative of
Mr.Ho'ss, or had it already been established by someone's mind that
Zyklon B was the agent of mass extermination and then was put into
Mr.Ho'ss' mind?

	In other words, is Mr.Ho'ss' testimony of Zyklon B true?

	Considering it can be shown that Mr.Ho'ss' testimony was
considerably false in respect to the numbers, and that it implies he
might have been tortured into testifying to the numbers, we would have
to take a similar look at the Zyklon B testimony.

	Mr.Ho'ss' testimony is the root of the Zyklon B tales. 

     What about the other German Zyklon B testimonies that followed
Mr.Ho'ss'? Did they all just come forth voluntarily out of free
choice, or were they prisoners, subjected to 'interrogation', with
'imput' on Zyklon B? 

	Considering this, it is obvious the Zyklon B part of the
Holocaust story is on shaky ground.

	How can anyone admit to accepting Ho'ss' testimony on the
3,000,000 being false and at the same time adamantly hold to any
testimony on Zyklon B as true? Obviously a subjectively selective
mental process would have to be the determining factor.   


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 25 06:31:01 PST 1996
Article: 80850 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israeli Court Values Palestinian Life at One-Third of a Cent
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:04:43 GMT
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>On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:49:23 -0500, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
>wrote:
>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>>         Talmud:
>>> 
>>>         "He who so ever sould save the life of a Jew, is as if he saved
>>> the life of the whole world."
>>> 
>>>         Inversely, 'He who so ever saves the life of a goy, is as if he
>>> saved nothing.'
>>
>>This has been debunked already.
 	Jamie McCarthy is always claiming something has been "debunked".
The only thing he ever debunks is himself. 

	All the ego statements, racist ravings and such by Jews today can
be traced back to the "Old Testiment". Perhaps hundreds of examples
exist in the writings.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 25 06:31:02 PST 1996
Article: 80940 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: misc.invest.stocks,misc.invest,misc.invest.misc,misc.invest.canada,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.misc,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-Power,soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.correct,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: list of jewish powerlords
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:58:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>>Hey shmuck-
>
>>it isn't the fact that you spammed that gets me mad.
>
>>YOU LEFT ME OFF THE LIST!
>
>>Yisroel Jacobs
>>Vermont USA
>
>Nice one Yisroel. 
>
>I have to laugh at people who bring up this jaded old "Jews controlling 
>the banks" etc. They make the asumption that every Jew in the world in 
>super-rich. I am married to a Jewish woman and her family is totally 
>working class from Queens, New York - not excatly millionaires. My 
>family in Ireland has more money than them. The nazi's who post this 
>garbage have never heard of somebody being smart and working hard at 
>their jobs. 
>
>Speaking of the Irish is it amazing how these bigots single out the Jews 
>for conspiricies. What about the Irish bars in the US? Is there not an 
>Irish conspircy to get all Americans drunk. What about the Italian 
>conspiricy to give people fatty veins with the rich foods they make and 
>sell? 
>
>I cannot belive that we are heading towards the year 2000 and this crap 
>still exsists.
>
>Tom

	If your relatives in Ireland have more money than your Jewish
inlaws in N.Y., the relatives in Ireland must be relatively rich and
your inlaws in N.Y. must be super poor.

	One thing you can bet, the Irish and the Italians don't raise
their kids with instruction in "chutzpah" thus ending up saying what
Jews say.

	I take it you support all the things in Israel, including their
official policy condoning torture, shooting down little kids, bombing
and rousting the population of Lebanon, to cite just a bit of Zionist
history.

	Loyalty to love and marriage is one thing, but when you let it
direct any aesthetic notions about politics, philosophy and life, it
is weakness.	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 25 06:31:03 PST 1996
Article: 80971 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Having Their Say Galore
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 15:30:12 GMT
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	Moran appreciates the three so far who have come out and signed
on to post exact examples that verify Moran's conclusions.

	
 



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 25 06:31:04 PST 1996
Article: 81097 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Ordinary Jews: Zionism's Willing Torturers'
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:42:53 GMT
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>In article <329a7cfd.2321020@199.0.216.204>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>>By the way, what does this have to do with the historicity of the
>>>holocaust?
>>
>>	Israel is the child of the Holocaust story. The Jews are
>>constantly telling us how decent they are and how terrible the Germans
>>were. Where is the righteous ADL. Where is one of their full page ads
>>condemning the torture?
>
>The relevence of the fact of the Holocaust to the foundation of Israel
>is not what I asked.  I asked what Israel policy has to do with the
>historical fact of the holocaust.  Let me simplify this issue for Mr.
>Moran: how do the policies of Israel (good or bad) prove or disprove the
>historical fact of the holocaust, or is the newsgroup titled
>alt.bash-jews-and-anything-connected-to-jews.

>Rich Green

	The Holocaust promotional network is big on morally condemning
just about everyone when in fact they defend Israel at all times.
Portraiting themselves as victims and condemning others is a major
part of the Holocaust propaganda. Thus is is part of the of the whole
Holocaust controversy.

	When you say "bash-Jews ..." are you complaining everything said
is a lie, or are you admitting about truths not being relevant?

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 25 06:31:04 PST 1996
Article: 81102 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israeli Court Values Palestinian Life at One-Third of a Cent
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:30:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>          An amazing article on Israeli justice appeared in the  
>"Washington Post," Nov. 19, 1996, p. A-15,  by Barton Gellman:

	Talmud:

	"He who so ever sould save the life of a Jew, is as if he saved
the life of the whole world."

	Inversely, 'He who so ever saves the life of a goy, is as if he
saved nothing.'


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 25 06:31:05 PST 1996
Article: 81108 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mass Murder in Belsen Camp, I
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:58:58 GMT
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>Testimony of Mr. Harold Le Druillence from Jersey, former
>prisoner in Belsen, who was "employed" as corpse carrier
>there ("The Belsen Trial", p. 60-62):

	Did anyone ask Mr. Harold Le Druillence to take them to the
scenes of the crimes? Did anyone care to dig up these mass graves?
	Evidently not.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 25 06:31:06 PST 1996
Article: 81135 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Numero Uno Witness - Torture/Confession/Admissions
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:54:55 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>The "revisionists" often claim that the memoirs of Rudolph Hoess,
>commandant of Auschwitz, were "dictated" to him during his trial
>in Poland. According to the "revisionists", the Poles and Soviets
>told Hoess what to write. Naturally, they offer no proof of this.

	When Mr.Keren says '"revisionists"', is he talking about some of
them, all of them or just one of them?

	Mr.Keren quotes the word '"dictated"'. Is he saying all
revisonists spoke the word, some of them, or one of them?

	Does Mr.Keren cite the names of all the "revisionists" who used
the "dictated" word, some of them - or none of them?


>Looking at the memoirs, we see that Hoess writes, among other
>things, that:
>
>1) The Soviet POW's in Auschwitz behaved like a herd of animals.
>   Hoess writes that they practiced cannibalism, and often killed
>   each other for a piece of bread.
>
>Can anyone offer any rational explanation as to why the Soviets
>would "dictate" something like this to Hoess? 
>
>Hoess also writes that -
>
>2) The Polish inmates were constantly engaged in violent clashes
>   among themselves, while trying to reach a higher status in the
>   inmate hierarchy. He even says that many of them intentionally
>   infected others with spotted fever and typhus, which resulted
>   in the death of the infected person.
>   
>Can anyone offer any rational explanation as to why the Poles
>would "dictate" something like this to Hoess? 
>
>Hoess also writes that -
>
>3) The total number of deaths in Auschwitz was about 1.2 million
>   (a rather accurate estimation). But the Soviets and the Poles
>   claimed at that time, and years later, that 4 million people
>   were murdered in the camp.
>
>Can anyone offer any rational explanation as to why the Poles
>and Soviets would "dictate" to Hoess a figure far lower than
>the one they gave? Had they "dictated" his memoir to him, they
>would obviously tell him to give a figure similar to theirs. But
>Hoess not only gives a far lower figure, he also mocks the higher
>estimates!

	Personally I find it idiotic that anyone would claim the Poles
"dictated" any words cited here.
	Does Mr.Keren pick out one grain of sand on the beach to
represent all?

>The obvious conclusion is that Hoess' memoir was not "dictated"
>to him. The claim that it was is just one more insane
>"revisionist" conjecture, unsupported by any evidence and
>contradicting basic logic.

	Seems so.

>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 25 06:31:06 PST 1996
Article: 81156 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Numero Uno Witness - Torture/Confession/Admissions
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:44:40 GMT
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>In article <32a0b539.16717082@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>         Mr.Ho'ss' testimony implies the 3,000,000 were killed at
>>         Auschwitz up to Dec.1, 1943.
>
>Really? Perhaps, knowing the Moran's (tm) propensity to maliciously lie
>and distort facts, we should examine what Ho"ss actually said at
>Kaltenbrunner's trial in regard to this? To whit:
>
>"I commanded Auschwitz until 1st December 1943, and estimate that at least
>2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there by gassing and
>burning, and at least another half million succumbed to starvation and
>disease, making a total dead of about 3,000,000. This figure represents
>about 70 to 80 per cent. of all persons sent to Auschwitz as prisoners,
>the remainder having been selected and used for slave labour in the
>concentration camp industries...." (Crankshaw, _Gestapo: intrument of
>tyranny_, p.192-193.)
>
>Hmm. Arguably Ho"ss meant that the 3 million figure applied to the _total_
>number of victims over the _entire_ history of Auschwitz by: "...This
>figure represents about 70 to 80 per cent. of all persons sent to
>Auschwitz as prisoners...."  Note the "all persons sent to Auschwitz" and
>_not_ persons sent to Auscwhitz until December 1, 1943.

	That's one way of seeing it. Then Ho'ss was citing the Dec. 1943
date at the same time.

>In addition, Ho"ss, in his memoirs, further states:
>
>"During my earlier interrogations I gave the number of 2.5 million Jews
>who arrived at Auschwitz to be exterminated. This figure was given to me
>by Eichmann, who had given this figure to my superior, SS General
>Glu"ck's, when Eichmann was ordered to make a report to Himmler shortly
>before Berlin was surrounded...." (Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_, p.38.) 

	As the commondant of Auschwitz, and the one who followed up with
the Zyklon B, why would he have to get his numbers from Eichmann. You
would think it would be the other way around.





From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 25 06:31:07 PST 1996
Article: 81295 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Air Photo Evidence"
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 03:57:54 GMT
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	Recently I have received a copy of John Ball's book "Air Photo
Evidence", the title that appears across the cover of the 116 page
glossy magazine sized book.
	Below the title are listed "Auschwitz, Treblinka, Majdanek,
Sobibor, Bergen Belsen, Belzek, Babi Yar, Katyn Forest".

	The photos in this book are mainly from American and German photo
reconnaissance negative rolls held by the U.S. National Archives Air
Photo Library in Washington D.C.

	These photos were not released until 1979, by the CIA. Mr.Ball
makes a case for a few of them being tampered with, which could very
well be the case, judging by evidence shown, but regardless of whether
or not they were, the photos are a serious blow to the reality of the
Holocaust story.

	 Even though one would, should expect anyone out to sell a story
like the Holocaust to utilize any and/or all photos available, most of
these photos you will not find used or referred to in the Holocaust's
adamant and persistent sales campaign.

	Almost from the very start of looking into the truth or falsity
of the Holocaust story, I recognized that photos are the arch-enemy of
the lie. No photos exemplify this as much as what is in this book.

	The photos in the book under discussion show aerial
reconnaissance shots of all the camps listed on the cover, which are
the main "extermination" centers or sites that are the focus of the
Holocaust story. Some of the photos are altitude shots that show the
camps in their general situ of surrounding areas (proximity to towns,
cities and farms), lower altitude shots of the camps proper, along
with some close ups of facilities within the camps.
     For Majdanek, another kilometer north and it would have been in
the center of Kosminok, a Lublin suburb with substantial population.

	Before and after shots are included for some, which gives an idea
of what went on and why. Such as Belzek, which the most that could be
deduced from the photos is, in 1940 it was a stand of trees and by
1944 they had been cut down.
  	
	The general format of the book is to list some "Allegations" that
are said to have happened at each camp and then to go on and show how
these allegations (eyewitness testimonies) are seriously challenged by
the photos.

	For reality reference Mr.Ball includes photographic evidence of
what real mass graves look like, discussion on mass grave capacity and
the space needed by comparison with such photos of mass burial by the
British at Bergen Belsen, the mass grave sites created by the Russians
after the execution of thousands of Poles in the Katyn forest and
burial of those killed during the Allied bombing of Hamburg.
	
	Mr.Ball also includes with each section on a particular camp, a
diagrammatic plan. Aside from Auschwitz, all the plans are from what
eyewitnesses or the Polish government rendered, and these plans are
relegated to fiction by the photos. The plan of Majdanek is the only
one that seems to have any similarity.

	Each of these renditions have buildings and areas within the
camps and are identified as to function for the buildings and
locations for the alleged grave sites. The eyewitness renditions and
thus any testimonies are thoroughly blown away by the photographic
evidence.

	The allegations cited in the book are just one little portion of
the testimonies that could be compared to the photographic evidence,
but when other more extensive testimonies are kept in mind while
viewing the photos, the testimonial factor of Holocaust accounting
starts to look like Looney Tunes. Holocaust testimonies in general are
absurd enough without the aid of photos. One common denominator of
Holocaust eyewitness testimony is the lack of any detail, only basics
and it is impossible to formulate a picture of any camp from any
description. I personally was amazed at what Majdanek, Belzek, Sobibor
and Treblinka looked like.
	 The more Holocaust testimonial facts one knows the more absurd
they seem in lieu of the photographic evidence.

	 The exact locations of mass grave sites identified by
eyewitnesses show that it would not have been difficult to locate and
perform forensic archeological studies to see if any real physical
evidence existed to substantiate the eyewitness accounts, yet, as far
as I know, neither the Poles, Russians and or Allies presented one
single forensic study performed for the purposes of introducing them
as evidence at the trials. The exact location of grave sites said to
be known and the failure of any authority to do a forensic study
indicates the trying bodies knew they were dealing with a fiction.

	Most of the photos in the book are gotten from rolls that the
Germans took themselves, as is the case with most Holocaust photos.
One would, should think that any tribunals or whatever would have gone
out and taken some photos themselves - but they didn't.

	On reviewing these photos it is obvious why the Holocaust
promotional network does not use or refer to most of them. Failure to
utilize evidence that available should be looked on with suspicion.
Failure to utilize existing evidence to support allegations should be
recognized as proof those who are out to sell the truth of the
Holocaust tale recognize themselves the evidence is damning to their
position. It could be deemed corrupt for those out to sell the truth
of the Holocaust story not to present, include and/or make reference
to the evidence in "Air Photo Evidence".

	I would recommend anyone seriously interested in finding out the
truth or non-truth of the Holocaust story to get a copy of this book.

	"Air Photo Evidence"

	the address in the book is

Ball Resources Services Limited
Suite 160 - 7231 120th
Delta, B.C., Canada	
V4C 6P5
		

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 25 06:31:08 PST 1996
Article: 81316 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Air Photo Evidence" - Belzec
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 06:34:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	This camp, as shown in John C. Ball's book "Air Photo Evidence"
was located just down the road from the town of Belzec, and right in
the immediate area of other Polish residences and commercial and
industrial complexes.

	As is the case for every camp said to have been an
"extermination" center it is also surrounded by agricultural lands.

	The actual Belzec "camp" was situated on and at a hillside that
rose 120 feet above the rest of the general area, making whatever took
place there highly visible. To get an idea of the terrestrial layout,
just stand 1000 feet away from a 12 story building and you will an
idea of how visible it would have been.

	"Air Photo Evidence" includes photos of the site taken in 1940
and in 1944. The photo for 1940 shows the hillside to have been a
dense pack of trees as with adjacent lands on the elongated hill. 
The 1944 photo shows the section to have been clear cut by the time of
the photo.

	The accompanying plan commissioned by the Polish government for a
extermination report, evidently taken from eyewitness testimony, has
it the undressing rooms were located at the bottom of the hill, the
gas chambers near the center of the hill and the mass grave site near
the top of the hill.

	This is hilarious.

	What was the sequence of activity there? Were the people
exterminated before the trees were cut down? Or were they exterminated
while the trees were being cut down? Or were they exterminated after
the trees were cut down? 

	If they were exterminated before the main body of trees was cut
down we have to suspect, at least, that the area where the mass grave
sites are said to have been was cleared. Either way, it is obvious the
scene of burial would have been highly visible from a large area as it
was happening.

	We might suppose the Germans or whoever cut the trees down left
the stumps in place during the whole process, but those stumps where
the mass graves are alleged to have been would have been removed. This
would offer easy location of any mass graves and thus the opportunity
for a forensic study. Was there any? No.

	The summary of the story says is, that 600,000 people were
transported through the town of Belzec and any other towns on the
approach, to the site in the general area of civilian activity,
ushered off the trains, taken to the undressing rooms, stripped, then
marched up the hill, gassed and then the bodies carried further up the
hill to be buried. As is the usual for all extermination stories about
different camps, the bodies were first buried and then dug up, burned
and reburied, and in the case of Belzec, all this taking place 100
feet above on the side of a hill for whoever to see.

	The Summary of what the photo reality shows is, that in 1940
there was a stand of trees and by 1944 the trees had been cut down.
Nothing more, nothing less.        
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 25 06:31:09 PST 1996
Article: 81334 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Air Photo Evidence" - Sobibor
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:29:26 GMT
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	As shown in the 1940 aerial photo of the Sobibor "camp" area
presented in John C. Ball's "Air Photo Evidence", Sobibor was a
clearing about 600 by 900 feet. Compounds of activity are shown to
already have been in existence as with some small scale agricultural
development. The 1944 aerial photo shows an area further cut out and
some buildings below by the rail line.

    The Holocaust story has it that hundreds of thousands were put to
death at the location.

	The photos do not support the plan supplied by a survivor and
included in Mr.Ball's book. No sign of building remains, other
buildings being where the witness plan says it was something else or
the general geometrical pattern of the site as shown in the photos. 

	The only thing the photos show is a existing clearing in 1940 and
a additional clearing being cut by 1944 and a new complex of buildings
near the tracks identified by Mr.Ball as a lumber mill.	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 25 06:31:09 PST 1996
Article: 81462 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Air Photo Evidence"/ Majdanek
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 05:31:06 GMT
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	The contents of this post are written to convey what can be
deduced from the photos in "Air Photo Evidence" by John C. Ball.

	Majdanek was an "extermination" camp in Poland. Various
eyewitness testimonies and "Extraordinary Commissions" have it that
>from  80,000 to 1,500,000 people were exterminated at the site.

	As the photos show, Majdanek was located right in the immediate
proximity of a major Polish population. Just another 3 to 4 thousand
feet north and it would have been in the center of a major populated
suburb of Lublin, a major Polish city.

	One corner of the camp was only 400 feet away from the nearest
houses.

	Aerial photos show that numerous beaten paths, roads, whatever,
connecting between the nearby civilian neighborhood and the immediate
perimeter of the camp. In fact most of the traffic seems to have taken
place in the immediate vicinity of the cremation facility that is
shown to have been outside the camp.

	The camp itself was about 1000 by 2000 feet.

	Eyewitness testimony and the accompanying plan taken from
"Hitlers Death Camps" by C.Feig has the gas chambers located at the
northeastern corner and the cremation facility is identified as being
at the extreme opposite corner, both outside the camp. This would make
the separation between them geometrically at the maximum distance
possible and would necessitate the need to truck the bodies from the
gas chamber 3000 feet around the camp to the cremation ovens.

	Agricultural fields abut the camp directly on over half the
perimeter.

	The building identified as the gas chamber is a sizable structure
with two extensions jutting out, one from the end perpendicular to the
long dimension of the building and the other extending parallel to the
other from the center. This building is also located out side of the
camp perimeter as defined in the photos and is obviously for some kind
of industrial process.

	The hundreds of thousands would have to have been marched or
trucked from the rail line considerable distance away and past
numerous places that would be active with Polish civilians.

	A "Soviet - Polish Extraordinary Commission Report" on the crimes
of the "Hitlerites" has that hundreds of thousands were shot and the
Germans had an array of loud speakers continuously playing Jazz music
in order to cover up the sound of thousands of rounds of gun fire a
day.

	This same report has it that the Germans cremated four bodies at
a time in the ovens, made to fit by cutting off their arms and legs
first.

	Whether or not the Germans cut off the arms and legs before they
drove the gassed victims the 3000+ feet to the cremation ovens or
after, the report does not say. If it was before then we can picture
truck loads of body parts being transported from the gas chambers
around the perimeter of the camp. If it was after, then we could
picture the bodies being cut up after they arrived at the ovens which
were highly visible from the nearby residential area.

	The same report has it the four bodies cremated at one time in
the same oven were reduced only to masses of charred flesh and bones
which were hidden under manure piles and dug into gardens. Since no
gardens are viewable inside the camp this would mean all this activity
would have to have taken place out side of the camp where Polish
civilians would be driving tractors and walking around.

	The "Extraordinary Commission Report" alleges 1,500,000 people
were killed at Majdanek.   

	"Air Photo Evidence" - St.George slays the phony Holocaust
dragon. 	     

	

	   


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 25 06:31:10 PST 1996
Article: 81595 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Air Photo Evidence" - Treblinka
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:06:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	The super summary would be, Before (1940) trees, and after,
>>(1944), nearly 50% of the immediate proximate land being turned into
>>agriculture and a few buildings erected. No more, no less.
>
>Marvelous. We can even tell you what was the name of the farmer:
>Strebel. He was a former Ukrainian guard.
>
>All the describtion in 40 or 44 is corroborated by the witnesses. It's
>only a shame that you omitted to take some photos in 42 or 43.

	Eyewitness testimony said a Ukrainian took over? Do they say
where he came from? Do they say why he would have gotten the farm? Was
it a reward from the Germans for his service running gas chambers or
something?

	Did he own all the other farming that abutted the camp site
before it was built? This same farming seemed to the same operation
that was expanding into the camp site in 1944.

	"Air Photo Evidence" smashs eye witness testimony. Eye witness
fantasies. That's the bottom line. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 25 06:31:11 PST 1996
Article: 81619 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More, No More Master Plan / Evil British
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:14:00 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Three letters to editor of the N.Y.Times in response to article
discussed. Three letters means many more were sent in.

	First letter

	"Reading about how the British knew that the Nazis were killing
Jews as early as 1941 brought back memories of the day my father came
home to tell us what happened to his family in Slonim, Belarus. The
few survivors had managed to get the news of the mass killings to the
U.S.. His mother, sisters and my cousins were dead.
	When the war ended and I grew to adulthood, I often wondered why
so many politicians, heads of state and ordinary citizens contended
that they did not know what I, a child in Brooklyn , had known in
1941. They did indeed know." 
                                               Judith P. Wishnia

Now there's some sound documented information.

Second letter 

	"Re your Nov.19 front page article ...
	Lord Wedgewood, for whom I worked as an advisor, instructed me to
find a competent member of th Foreign Office and to convey a secret
report giving details of the extermination of Jews in Auschwitz and
requesting that the railroad lines leading to it be raided by the
Royal Air Force.
	On March 26, 1942, I submitted the materials to Lord Linlithgo, a
member of the Foreign Office. After calls to the 'appropriate'
ministers, he told me that 'nothing could be done which would
interfere with the war effort'. This was the Cabinet's decision
because, he said, diverting the bombers would tell the Germans that
Britain had broken their secret code."

									Marcus Better

Well Auschwitz now was killing Jews as early as Spring 1941 by this
account. Would there be any paper work to support this persons related
material of which he recalls quotable words? Would he be able to say
why the '"appropriate"' ministers would have thought the breaking of
the secret code would have been detected because of a raid on
Auschwitz rail lines, or is he just playing up the angle proposed in
the initial article? 


Third letter

	"That British intelligence knew of the Nazi genocide as early as
1941 in not surprising.
	My grandparents, who lived in a two-family house in Paterson,
N.J. lacking cryptography tools and intelligence reports, knew of it
even earlier. Virtually everyone of their acquaintances knew well
before the British and American authorities seem to have learned it.
Today it would be on the Internet in seconds. Then it was passed by
word of mouth and smuggled letters."

										Lucile Lichtblau

Now there's a formative accounting. "Virtually everyone ... knew well
before .."? Word of mouth and "smuggled letters"? The times printed
the letter, but will you and I know to what extent any of it true?


Holocaust, Holocaust, Holocaust, Holocaust.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 25 06:31:12 PST 1996
Article: 81632 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Heartening news for Jews
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:58:07 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>"The non Europeanization of America is heartening news of an
>almost transcendental  quality." 
>
>(Ben Wattenberg, Jewish 'philosopher,'
>in The Good News, The Bad News, p. 84)
>
>More quotes archived at GOAL:  http://www.nilenet.com/~tmw/    

	About fifteen years ago, Ben Wattenberg had an editorial in the
now defunked Herald Examiner, "World Can Take Twice the Population"
which would have been at the time 2 x 5,000,000,000 = 10,000,000,000.

	Only a fool would not be able to see that the over-population of
the world is the main problem with all the enviroment.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Nov 25 07:35:09 PST 1996
Article: 81844 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Air Photo Evidence"
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:39:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <329aaf47.311699@199.0.216.204>
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>In article <32966e05.597584@199.0.216.204>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>>		
>>	Recently I have received a copy of John Ball's book "Air Photo
>>Evidence", the title that appears across the cover of the 116 page
>>glossy magazine sized book.
>
>Ahh yes, the book where John Ball accuses Porier and Brugioni
>of forgery, mis-identifies a fence, and insists that all
>photos must be of the same quality or they're all fakes.

	I don't know anything about any John Ball accusations, or
whatever else you say here. It's not even relevant, as I see it.
Photos are relevant. If you want to play the Debra Lipstadt game of
challenging the people instead of the evidence, go ahead. I don't have
to play or respond to the little ploy.

>>	These photos were not released until 1979, by the CIA. Mr.Ball
>>makes a case for a few of them being tampered with, which could very
>>well be the case, judging by evidence shown, but regardless of whether
>>or not they were, the photos are a serious blow to the reality of the
>>Holocaust story.
>
>That's a very weird notion.  Do you believe they were tampered
>with or not?  If so, how can you use them for evidence of anything
>at all, one way or the other?

	I see it as a very distinct possiblity. There is a lot of
desperation and intrigue associated with the Holocaust. As I said, it
doesn't make any difference whether or not they have been tampered
with, as far as denying the story goes. 

	If you have a person in a photo along with a car, and the image
of the car has been tampered with, does this make the image of the
person unidentifiable? 

	What you would prefer is to have all the photos banned from
consideration for the sake of protecting the lie. 'Oh, look. There's a
little smudge on the photos, therefore we shouldn't use them at all.' 

>You and Ball both make the same dumb mistake:  You argue that
>a piece of evidence is useless, and then argue the mutually 
>exclusive position that this piece of evidence proves the denier
>thesis.

	You didn't cite anything said by either Mr.Ball or my self as
exact examples of whatever you claim here. Your statement says
nothing. It announces - something - whatever that may be.

	I knew this post would muster up a certain dread. These photos
are to the Holocaust as fighter planes would be against the Indians. A
copy of this book in the hands of many, along with some eye witness
testimonies, and only the most corrupt and weak would be left
perpetuating or tolerating the story.

>Brian Harmon  
>------
>Human memory is the glue that bonds the massive
>physical evidenceinto a coherent and unified history. 
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 26 06:25:48 PST 1996
Article: 81846 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bye, Bye, "Master Plan"?
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:41:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <329cafac.413310@199.0.216.204>
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>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: 
>: 	 Holocaust propagandists citing the "Wannasee Conference" are out
>: to show a premeditated master plan by Germany to exterminate all the
>: Jews.
>: 
>
>Not a "master plan", but stated and implemented aim,
>"strategic objective" if you prefer. Several ways
>of achieveing this aim were tried and tested. The
>gas chambers were the culmination.
>
>If you are interested in details of the planning, 
>a good place to start is
>
>"Vordenker der Vernichtung.
>Auschwitz und die deutschen Plaene fuer eine
>neue europaeische Ordnung."
>
>It is by Goetz Aly and Susanne Heimp,
>published by Hoffmann und Campe Verlag, Hamburg
>in 1991.
>
>ISBN 3-455-08366-8
>
>I trust that is precise enough to make it easy
>to track down.
>
>d.A.


	Mountain out of a mole hill stuff? You go for the mountain out of
the little details to show a master plan and I'll go for what the over
all shows.

	It's funny how the Holocaust dedicated have spent years of words
to show and proclaim the master plan, and now here we have a trend
that is shying away from the master plan, regardless of any books that
specializes in trying to sell the master plan theory.

	I think we can expect a number of books to come out that strive
to show a master plan. Instead of trying to show it all stemmed from
some big organizational process, they will be out to sell the idea it
was a consideration stemming from conditions in the East. This will
take a bit of doing. A certain logic to conclude on things,
intentional lack of continuity so there is nothing to follow, leaving
only the little insinuations to dominate. The usual Holocaust kind of
accounting. We can expect mucho bibliography footnote numbers at the
end of whole passages that have multiple components without anyone
knowing exactly which part of the passage is being referred to the
bibliography number.  



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 26 06:25:49 PST 1996
Article: 81852 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust/O.J.Simpson trial analogy
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:56:53 GMT
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	If the O.J.Simpson trial had no photographs of the crime scene,
no blood tests or any other forensic evidence and only had the
testimony of the person that said he heard a dog bark, then it would
be comparable to the Holocaust trials.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 26 06:25:49 PST 1996
Article: 81875 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Air Photo Evidence" - Treblinka
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 08:43:20 GMT
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	Next to Auschwitz, Treblinka is the most referred to
"extermination" camp in the Holocaust tales. Holocaust facts have it
that anywhere from 900,000 to 2,000,000 people were exterminated at
this site.

	The eyewitness rendition given by a survivor shows a rectangle
about twice the distance on the long sides as on the short sides.
Across the top part a quarter of the plan is identified as
"Administration and staff living area" with half of that being trees.

	The center two quarters of the plan (half trees) shows the left
hand side of it being a complex of buildings captioned "The Ghetto",
"roll call square", Station square" and "deportation square". This
last one being from where a "The Tube" ran down to the lower quarter,
a complex of buildings cited as "old gas chambers", "new gas
chambers", '"roasts"' for burning bodies, and burial pits.

	This eyewitness plan does not correspond in the least with other
eyewitness testimonies on Treblinka.

	The aerial photos show it to have been located amidst
agricultural workings, off the main road a couple of hundred yards,
just down the road in one direction from a small village and just up
the road from another.

	The immediate camp site itself is located in a pie shaped wedge
defined by a rail spur converging on one side and the main road on the
other side. The "camp" is along the rail side about 3000 meters from
where the rail spur and the main road diverge from.

	A 1940 aerial photo shows the area to have been basically a
wooded area with one small clearing intruding into the woods from the
road side not far from the where the camp would eventually be.

	The 1944 photo shows that considerable trees have been cut down
and a large area to have been cleared. Much of the cleared area has
been turned into agricultural land with some of it encroaching on the
grounds that are identified as part of the camp.

	A small complex of buildings is shown in the May 1944 photo,
which looks like it could have been a farm complex, like a house, a
barn and small sheds, but it could have been something else associated
with the cutting of trees or gravel pit where the rail spur seems to
have terminated another mile or so past the "camp".

	In a Nov. 1944 photo it shows some of the buildings may have been
destroyed. These buildings being the only ones to have been in
existence, going by the photos, would be at the opposite end of the
camp from where the plans have the exterminations taking place.

	So the photographic evidence shows that in 1940 the area was
basically a tree area and by 1944 it had been cleared of trees and
turned into agriculture with a few buildings erected. It also shows
the previously mentioned small clearing to have been more than doubled
and it being obviously used for agriculture.

	The super summary would be, Before (1940) trees, and after,
(1944), nearly 50% of the immediate proximate land being turned into
agriculture and a few buildings erected. No more, no less.

	    		 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 26 06:25:50 PST 1996
Article: 81885 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More "whispers" for Holocaust Gold. Gimme, Gimme
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:10:07 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	This latest article also relates,

	As to this part of the article,	

	"Documents emerging from the search for Swiss accounts led to the
discovery llast summer of another piece of the 50-year-old puzzle deep
in the underground vault of the Federal Reserve of N.Y. It is a
two-ton cache of war gold, controlled by an obscure Allied commission
that exists to replenish the once looted state treasures of Europe.
The hordes origins are uncertain. But it is suspected that some ingots
contain gold pried from the teeth and wedding-ring fingers of those
herded into the death camps."

	So first the Jews get a deep desire to extort money from the
banks of Switzerland and now they have an eye on a cache in our own
Federal Reserve.

	Maybe in a couple more weeks we will be seeing some articles on
the Jews taking a fancy to whatever is left in the National Mint.

	Who knows, maybe it could be 'reasoned' that a little bit of gold
>from  the teeth of Holocaust victims is present in every piece of
jewelry. 

	What with the baby logic process of "chutzpah" maybe it could be
shown that even gold coins from antiquity contain gold of Holocaust
teeth, even if they were made before the alleged incident happened.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Nov 26 06:25:51 PST 1996
Article: 81890 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: More "whispers" for Holocaust Gold. Gimme, Gimme
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:44:50 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Beginning on the front page of the N.Y.Times and extending into a
full page plus inside,

	           "Bitter Secrets and a Cache of Gold"

"A Holocaust survivor's quest
for a missing Swiss account 
and a newly found trove in New York
are part of a morality tale shaped 
by political decisions made half 
a century ago."

	Elizabeth Trilling-Grotch walked unnoticed among the rich of
Madison Avenue, a phantom in an old black coat drifting among the
fashionable. Their world of wealth had once been hers, a life so
distant she can only conjure it up in other people's memories. She is
laying claim to her lost world, even if nations are shamed and old men
anguish.
	She had come to Manhattan from her Bay Area home to call her late
husbands relatives. But she had other business: a meeting with
officials of the World Jewish Congress, whose researchers had found
letters written by her relatives to the U.S. State Dept. at the end of
WW II. Begging for help in tracking down a missing family account in a
Swiss bank, the pleas were met with form letters. Decades of silence
followed.
	Trilling-Grotch is a child of the Holocaust, born to a privileged
life she never possessed. At 58, she mourns a family exterminated and
a fortune vanished. A half century on, she seeks funds her mother
mentioned the last night they spent together in a Warsaw Ghetto attic.
'Don't worry', were her mother's whispered words. 'There is money in a
Swiss account.'"

         Sound familiar? If you read the alt.revisionism post, "More
on the demands for $wi$$ billions" you might recall,

	"For half a century, Gizella Weisshaus followed a trail of
whispers."
...
	The article relates Ms.Weisshaus' story. Her father was arrested
and then allowed to return home under guard to say fair well to his
family. He is said to have gathered all the family about him, out of
ear shot of the guard we should suppose, and told them, "He spoke
first with my mother. And then he took all the children around him and
he told us he had money hidden in the walls, and money in the Swiss
bank. And that was it. That was the last I saw of my father."



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Nov 30 11:30:10 PST 1996
Article: 82608 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Air Photo Evidence ?
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:19:50 GMT
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	One would suppose that those at Nuremberg would have at least had
some aerial photographs of the alleged camps. Simply from the point of
the prosecution we would expect they would have performed the simple
standard procedure for the sake of solidifying their case.

	Why wouldn't the prosecution have gone out and done the common
recognized practice of obtaining photographic evidence for their
position at the Holocaust trials? 

	Either they figured if they did make an attempt and nothing was
found, and it got out, they might not be able to find the defendents
guilty and/or, they knew it was a lie and they couldn't muster the
energy to have a survey done to show something they knew wasn't there.


	Air photo evidence, or any other kind of photographic evidence?
None?

	Failure to obtain and present physical evidence means something.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Nov 30 11:30:11 PST 1996
Article: 82622 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More "whispers" for Holocaust Gold. Gimme, Gimme
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:39:39 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>
>	This latest article also relates,
>
>	"Long rumored, rarely found, such accounts are part of the an
>enduring mystery of the Holocaust. ...


	Really, what "mystery" is there to the "rarely" substantiated
"rumors". It's no mystery. Just change the word "rumors" to 'lies' and
the word "rarely" to 'never' and we can see what the "mystery" is,
then we can change the word "mystery" into 'obvious'.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Nov 30 11:30:12 PST 1996
Article: 82624 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/O.J.Simpson trial analogy
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:16:20 GMT
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>In article <329acb61.5164213@199.0.216.204>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>>
>>	If the O.J.Simpson trial had no photographs of the crime scene,
>
>There are tons of photos of Bergen-Belsen, Auscwitz, Babi Yar, 
>and others

	"Tons" of photos. Most Holocaust photos were taken by the Germans
themselves. No photos prove anything about a Holocaust story. 	

>>no blood tests or any other forensic evidence and only had the
>
>cyanide on the wallls at Auschwitz.  Tests finding human remains
>where mass graves were believed to be located. 

	The only test for cyanide coming from those who have the
Holocaust story true is the one from The "Crakow Institute for
Forensic Study", which says nothing to prove any teeny weeny little,
micrograms per kilogram found were from any gas chambers.
	If you had anything worth a darn, you would have used stronger
material than, "Tests finding human remains where mass graves were
believed to be located." 	

>>testimony of the person that said he heard a dog bark, then it would
>>be comparable to the Holocaust trials.
>
>Wrong. To make the OJ Trial like the Holocaust trials,
>the prosecution would need:
>
> 1) tons of witnesses
> 2) numerous personal documents from OJ describing how much
>    he hated nicole, and how if she divorced him, she would be
>    'destroyed.'
> 3) personal documents from OJ describing how he killed her and
>    Ron Goldman.
> 4) For OJ to confess on the stand and claim the he "was only 
>    following orders."

	Well, what with "tons" of this and "tons" of that, there's no
reason for getting upset.
>
>Brian Harmon  
>------
>Human memory is the glue that bonds the massive
>physical evidenceinto a coherent and unified history. 
>
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Nov 30 11:30:13 PST 1996
Article: 82629 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:17:37 GMT
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>karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:
>
>> Greg Raven  writes:
>> 
>> > This lie is the origin of the term Holocaust. Today there is no
>> > longer a single historian who believes that Jews were burned alive.
>> 
>> Amazing. No one any longer believes that Nazi soldiers in Bialystok
>> herded Jews into the synagogue, locked it up and then set it on fire?
>> When did this particular event vanish from history?
>
>I'd like to know this too.
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/goldhagen.daniel.jonah/700-burned-alive-bialystok
>
>   The men of Police Battalion 309's First amd Third Companies drove
>   their victims into the synagogue, the less complaint Jews
>   receiving from the Germans liberal blows of encouragement. The
>   Germans packed the large synagogue full. The fearful Jews began to
>   chant and pray loudly. After spreading gasoline around the
>   building, the Germans set it ablaze; one of the men tossed an
>   explosive through a window, to ignite the holocaust. The Jews'
>   prayers turned into screams.

	Ultimate source? Some eye witness?

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/goldhagen.daniel.jonah/burned-alive-gardelegen
>
>   They (SS, Hitler Youth and local police), chased us all into a
>   large barn. since we were 5,000-6,000 people, the wall of the barn
>   collapsed from the pressure of the mass of people, and many of us
>   fled. The Germans poured out petrol and set the barn on fire.
>   Several thousand people were burned alive. Those of us who had
>   managed to escape, lay down in the nearby wood and heard the
>   heart-rending screams of the victims. This was on April 13. One
>   day later the place was conquered by Eisenhower's army. When the
>   Americans got there, the bodies were still burning.

	Then we might assume the Americans have a report on the findings.
We should also expect some photographs. Not just some quote from
someone. 

>   Quoted in Krakowski, "The Death Marches in the Period of the
>   Evacuation of the Camps," p. 485 (From Goldhagen's "Hitler's
>   Willing Executioners")
>
>And, Mark Van Alstine describes another similar event in
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?places/france/oradour-sur-glane/640-burned-alive
>
>   Oradour-sur-Glane. The SS Panzer Division Das Reich, in
>   retaliation for partisan attacks by the Maquis, rounded up the
>   villagers of Oradour-sur-Glane, who had no part in the attacks by
>   the Maquis, in the town square and then forced 400 women and
>   children into the village church and 240 men who into six barns.
>   The Nazis then shot all the men and burned the barns. They then
>   sealed the church and then riddled it with gunfire and lobbed hand
>   grenades inside. Afterwards, they burned the church.

	And the same. 

	Jamie, do you believe everything you read in Holocaust
literature?


>Mr. Raven, you state that "there is no longer a single historian who
>believes that Jews were burned alive," -- not a single one!  Presumably,
>therefore, you have references from historian after historian which
>indicate that each of these events never happened.
>
>To make such a strong statement as "no longer a single historian," you
>must have evidence that these events have been decried by...oh, I don't
>know...ninety percent of historians in the field of the Holocaust? Eighty
>percent?  The rest, if unknown, could be written off as statistically
>insignificant, of course.  But there must be thousands of Holocaust
>historians;  you must have a filing cabinet filled to the brim with
>photocopies and references to their denouncing these versions of events.
>
>Could you please post several?  In particular, the examples where
>Goldhagen renounced the above statements, made in his book published
>only a few months ago?  Thanks.
>
>If you cannot cite such examples, then I might suggest that you live
>up to the promise on your web site's home page:
>
>   If you find material on this Web site that is untrue, please tell
>   me and I will change it.
>
>Your previous failures to live up to this promise have made it into
>somewhat of a joke, but I hope you will honor it at least this once.
>Thank you.
>
>Posted;  emailed to Mr. Raven;  please reply publicly.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Nov 30 11:30:14 PST 1996
Article: 82788 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,alt.revisionism,aus.general,aus.politics,soc.culture.malaysia,soc.culture.singapore,soc.culture.japan,soc.culture.australia,soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.india,alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Australian PM Revisionist / Racist Of The Year ?
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 18:43:21 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 19
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References: <564q05$694@jerry.loop.net> <328661F6.7B2F@ma.ultranet.com> <5680me$cac@jerry.loop.net> <5695cj$734@camel1.mindspring.com> <328A1877.DFF@gr.cns.net> <56d9fq$62q@camel4.mindspring.com> <328B3D10.2590@anteater.net> <56g3c4$51d@camel2.mindspring.com> <56hqnp$m9l@inet.dit.ie> <328C8A71.1462@isdead.com> <56ig93$poe@opera.iinet.net.au> <3293b852.2911026@news.sydney.apana.org.au> <329303e6.37566942@news.gte.net> <570c04$adq$1@sydney.DIALix.oz.au> <32a258be.1733766@news.sydney.apana.org.au> 
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>On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, Raj Thomas wrote:
>
>> I often borrow books on Judaica from the local synagogue library and
>> yes, I can see what Cousins is talking about. Seeing the change in the
>> popular mood here, I can also understand how charismatic political
>> leaders and media forces can incite an already racist population (
>> Germany before, perhaps Australia in the future ) to acts of
>> unspeakable bastardry.
>
>I agree. And I think we should do everything we can to fight racism, 
>before it gets any worse.
>
>Ramon

	Don't overlook the possibility that any reactions could be in
reaction to "racism" being expressed by those who you would have to be
the victims. Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Nov 30 11:30:14 PST 1996
Article: 82845 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Every Day, in U.S. Press, Holocaust, Yes, Yes, Yes
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 16:18:40 GMT
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	When it comes to pressing the Holocaust as fact, plenty of
accommodation is given to perpetuating the lie.

	       "Holocaust Secrecy Now Abets More Genocide"
                   (Letter to the editor)
                  N.Y.Times, Nov. 29, 1996

	This one was by Richard Breitman, responding to a John Keegan
editorial "What the Allies Knew". Keegan had cited a F.H. Hinsley five
volume book series on British intelligence information. Breitman
complains that the book only had one page in the appendix to police
executions, the hot latest topic for Holocaust propaganda that aims to
reshuffle the master plan hypothesis in lieu of what the standing
accounts are not able to establish.
	Breitman responded by citing his heavy rebuttal material, "In the
U.S. National Archives, I located original transcripts in German of
more than 1,500 decoded German radio transmissions from and to Nazi
officials in conquered areas of the Soviet Union. It is from these
documents that Mr. Hensley derived selected information."

	Breitman then goes on to allude to new decodes, citing how many
German Order Police were sent in to Russia (11,000) and a how many
were Einsatzgruppen. He cites some alleged atrocity with the usual
grandiose number, this one 23,600 Jews executed.

	He doesn't say how many of hte "1,500" decodes were relevant to
the Holocaust story, nor does he say if his "23,000 Jews executed" was
part of them.

	Brietman ends up with a component of this latest campaign focus
on alleged Holocaust history and also cited by Keegan, that the
English didn't do anything about any atrocities reported in decodes
because they didn't want to alert the Germans to the fact that they
had broken their codes.

	"We have heard statements like this before. There always seem to
be higher priorities for governments and their defenders than swift
action against genocide and it's perpetrators. That is why some
continue to believe they can get away with mass murder in the pursuit
of political goals."

	So far there hasn't been any talk on what the English or anyone
else could have done even if the stories were true. Nor do they say
how any reaction would necessarily alert the Germans to the fact that
their codes had been broken.
	Even if the stories were true, or maybe especially if the stories
were true, alerting the Germans to the fact their codes had been
broken would have led to more goyim being killed and in the end, if
the Holocaust story is true, the prolonged effort of the war in
general which would have caused more Jews to die.

	"He who so ever saves the life of a Jew, is as if he had saved
the whole world". Jewish saying. Inversely, 'He who so ever saves the
life of a goy, is as if he had saved nothing'.
=========================================================================

	Then on Nov.30, 1996, N.Y.Times,

				"The Gold Standard"

by Frank Rich, regular Times editorialist.

	"Being of a certain generation, my mother didn't hold with the
notion that Germany could be forgiven for the Holocaust in her life
time. She wouldn't buy German products and purported to hold her
breath whenever passing over Germany by plane. But she loved
Switzerland, and I wonder what she would have made of the news about
Swiss bankers helping themselves to Nazi deposits of stolen loot from
Jews, some of it possibly gold extracted from the teeth of death-camp
inmates."

	The column goes on under a bold insert "Not everyone behaved like
the Swiss" about some other governments owning up to having held some
stolen loot, and how the Dutch were of a different ilk.

	So every day we are given the truth of the Holocaust story in our
major medias. I would say, if Holocaust revisionists had only 2% of
the accommodation the lie gets in our every day medias, the other 98%
would cease. 
	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Nov 30 11:30:15 PST 1996
Article: 82873 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No Wonder!
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 17:26:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Considering what the photo evidence shows for such places as
Treblinka, where it is said up to 2,000,000 people were killed and the
photos showing only trees and a clearing in 1940 and no trees and more
clearings with agriculture in 1944, and Belzec which the story has
600,000 killed with a 1940 photo of the area showing trees and the
1944 photo showing no trees, and Sobibor where hundreds of thousands
more died with a 1940 photo showing a clearing and the 1944 photo
showing a bigger clearing, its no wonder the Holocaust story
concentrates on Auschwitz. 
	It's no wonder why the Holocaust perpetuation network only
presents select photos from Auschwitz and utterly avoids availing of
photos of the other places.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec  1 16:08:00 PST 1996
Article: 82999 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No Fear of Air Photo Evidence?
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 14:25:06 GMT
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	In his book, "Air Photo Evidence", John C. Ball presents a short
discussion on camouflage done by the Germans in attempts at fouling up
aerial photographic reconnoisance interpretations.

	Ball says the Germans were aware as early as 1941 that the Allies
were doing a aerial reconnoisance survey of Weatern Europe and
eventually they knew aerial reconnoisance was being done over Poland. 

	Considering this we might get the idea the Germans would have
been concerned about any mass exterminations being exposed by aerial
photo-reconnoisance.

	We could get the notion they might have gone through some trouble
to ward off the possibility of being detected by some means. After
all, as the Holocaust story has it, people were filed by the thousands
every day into the extermiantion buildings, the bodies being piled out
side, crushing machines, trucks, the whole thing.

	Not only this, photo-reconnoisance would have been concentrated
on populated areas and areas of industrial processes, which would have
made and did make Auschwitz-Birkenau an area that was focused on by
the Allies.

	We could liken this to a contractor who would try to get away
with building a major structure on Main Street without a building
permit. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec  1 16:08:01 PST 1996
Article: 83001 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Air Photo Evidence ?
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 14:27:07 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>Chuck Ferree writes:
>
>Moran, the dumb and dumber of the Internet, let me see if I can help 
>you understand this simple little problem you seem to have.
>
>
>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>>         One would suppose that those at Nuremberg would have at least had
>> some aerial photographs of the alleged camps.
>
>And just what the hell makes you think that they didn't have aerial 
>photos of the Nazi camps. I know they were available for the trial, 
>because I personally took photos as did other pilots in 1945. So 
>photos were available. Not just ours, but Russian photos also. 

	Really? You say the Allies and the Russians took aerial photos of
the camps? Would this be Auschwitz, Majdanek, Treblinka, Sobibor,
Belzec? You say you took some photos your self? Was this aerial? Was
this of Bergen-Belsen, or was it "extermination" camps? Do you think
we could get a look at these photos? Are they something we can have
access to?

> Simply from the point of
>> the prosecution we would expect they would have performed the simple
>> standard procedure for the sake of solidifying their case.
>
>One would suppose as well, that there was no need for the prosecutors 
>to produce this kind of evidence, since mountains of better evidence 
>existed and was introduced.

	"Better evidence" than photographs, Chuck? Could you cite some of
it? Taking photos of a crime scene is and was a common recognized
recommended procedure. "Better evidence", Chuck?

> Simpson is making or has made his 
>prosecutors prove he killed his former wife and Ron Goldman. (which 
>they did IMHO), the SS, Ghestapo, and thousands of Nazis confessed to 
>save their asses, plus many eyewitnesses testified of their personal 
>experiences, witnesses testified to what they had seen. The war 
>criminals declared they were innocent, but none declared that mass 
>killings had not taken place, or that Hiler had not intended to get 
>rid of the Jews. They copped out in most every instance.

	I see you have answered the question, 'eye witnesses' are better
than photos. How come so many photos undo so many eye witness
testimonies? 

>>         Why wouldn't the prosecution have gone out and done the common
>> recognized practice of obtaining photographic evidence for their
>> position at the Holocaust trials?
>
>
>Because they didn't need to. They already had thousands of photos 
>provided by the Germans themselves. 

	Maybe you could identify some of these "thousands" they used.
There may be thousands, the Germans were big on documenting just about
everything, but which ones were used at Nuremberg or any other trial?
Here you admit the Tribunals didn't have any of their own photos. 
 
>>         Either they figured if they did make an attempt and nothing was
>> found, and it got out, they might not be able to find the defendents
>> guilty and/or, they knew it was a lie and they couldn't muster the
>> energy to have a survey done to show something they knew wasn't there.
>
>
>This is bullshit, Moran, pure speculation on your part, just like 
>every other post you use to attempt to prove an non-existant point.

	Your absolutely right. It is speculation. Maybe a more accurate
term would be analytical supposition founded on things that should
have been.
 
>>         Air photo evidence, or any other kind of photographic evidence?
>> None?
>
>Jesus, man, what ever gave you the notion that photos were not used at 
>the trial? You don't know, you're just bluffing and lying more.
>> 
>>         Failure to obtain and present physical evidence means something.
>
>Exactly what does it mean to you, turkey? And what on earth makes you 
>believe that no physical evidence was presented?

	Chuck? Is eye witness testimony 'physical evidence'?

>Tom, you really need some help. Try telling this to a shrink. He'll 
>lead you back to normality maybe. 
>
>Chuck



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec  1 16:08:02 PST 1996
Article: 83069 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Good Old Days,2.  Who killed the cop?
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 14:57:15 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 41
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>Here is something from chapter two entitled:  "Bloody
>Wednesday in Olkusz/Ilkenau".
>
>The excerpt begins by inform us that a capital crime had
>occurred on 16 July 1940.  A German policeman named
>Ernest Kaddatz was bushwhacked and murdered by assailants
>unknown.  The German authorities believed the assailants were
>hiding out in the town of Olkusz.  
>
>On 31 July the town was surrounded by police units.  A Jew was
>or Jews were suspected of the murder.  Thus, the Jewish inhabitants
>of the town were compelled toassemble in the village square and lie
>face down on the ground for a number of hours while the town and their
>persons were searched.  It is alleged that the Jews were beaten with rifle
>butts, but no evidence is offered to sustain that charge.
>
>A Jew named Tadeusz Lupa is shot while attempting to flee.  This must
>have made him appear guilty in the eyes of the investigating authorities.
>The authors of the book tekk us that Tadeusz could not stand the "torture"
>of lying face down on the ground so he fled.
>
>Finally, we are told that the towns population was sent to Auschwitz in 1942,
>with no additional comment.  The obvious inference which the authors of the
>book wish to be drawn is that the Jews were murdered there.  Yet, they offer
>no proof whatsoever.
>
>Photographs are reproduced showing the jews of the town being searched
>and lying on the ground.  There is no sign of mistreatment. 
>
>Conclusion:  The killer was probab;y Tadeusz.  

	So on the one hand, we have, the Holocuast story saying Jews in
the East were shipped off to Auschwitz, and on the other hand they
were all killed on the spot.
 
	Interesting. 

	Perhaps there is some special alibi that can give us a reason why
this batch was sent off to Auschwitz.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec  1 16:08:02 PST 1996
Article: 83073 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Air Photo Evidence"
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:04:47 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <32a24cc4.1843832@199.0.216.204>
References: <32966e05.597584@199.0.216.204> <329fb074.612633@199.0.216.204> <57ohjt$64t$4@gruvel.une.edu.au>
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>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: 
>: 	After reviewing and considering the aerial photographs in "Air
>: Photo Evidence" I personally am under the opinion that
>: Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek were the only two "extermination"
>: facilities in Poland that could be called a camp. 
>
>The only flaw is that Auschwitz-Birkenau was in Germany.
>The border was to the east of the town of Auschwitz,
>between it and Cracow.
>
>The map I have in front of me indicating 
>this seems to be from the German Auslandsinstitut, Stuttgart.
>
>d.A.

	
	You say Auschwitz was in Germany? Now there's a desperate
covenience.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec  1 16:08:03 PST 1996
Article: 83102 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Yea, "Where is McVay ???"
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 19:31:29 GMT
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>	We miss you Ken, what happened ?????
>
>Did you go get a haircut, and its taking three weeks?
>
>Please get rid of the pony tail.  It doesn't look good on an old goat.

	You ask McVay to get rid of his pony tail? But McVay is a
connoisseur of the yuppy image, wine cellars and sports cars and all,
and this would be part of the image. The deep thinker, the intellect,
the man about town, the adventurer, the suave operator. 

	As to what happened to him? 

	Well he may have gone off to Israel for intensive training in
"Chutzpah", or maybe he flunked 'Chutzpah 101' and has been fired, or
maybe he turned and he has been wisked off to Israel for
deprogramming/reprogramming, or he has flipped and is now in an
institution, or he has turned, not being able to support the lie any
more and is in hiding, or is down hiding out with Giwer where they are
working on the release of a grand proclaimation, or maybe he's just
hold up in his wine cellar having a good old time.

	Anyway McVay, if your out there, wherever you are, god bless ya.

	



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Dec  1 16:08:04 PST 1996
Article: 83124 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Nizkor Project: Holocaust educational resource list
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 16:24:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 5
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	Suddenly after a bit of absence, McVay is back. Right after some
one asked, "Where is McVay????"

	Is this McVay posting here? Or is it someone else at Nizkor?

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