From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  1 09:31:38 PST 1997
Article: 90360 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Moranian Refrigerator
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 13:20:17 GMT
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>[a moran had opined]
>
>   "Even though modern day cremation facilities take two and half
>   hours to cremate one body, the cremation ovens at Auschwitz, barely
>   the size of a regrigerator..."
>
>....and Mr. Van Alstine, a man who knows nothing about Morania, or
>the thriving Moranian Refrigerator Cartel, prattleth thus:
>
>>"Barely the size of a regrigerator?" Considering that the Topf coke-fired
>>double-muffle incineration furnace measured 3.4 m x 2.5 m x 1.85, I'd say
>>that was some "refrigirator!" (cf. Presac, _Technique_, p.109.) 
>
>Sir, MR. Van Alstine! I _must_ protest! Scrolls in the Moranian
>Refigerator Museum of Los Angeles clear show household cooling
>devices several hundred _meters_ in height and width... had you
>given any real thought to the revealed stature of the Average
>Moranian Mouth, you would have quickly realized your error.

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------

	Cut it out Hilary. This would be even too much for the real
McVay, who himself is a connoisseur of the psychobabybabble.

	What the hell have you done with him.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  1 09:31:39 PST 1997
Article: 90362 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "U.S. Says ..." ?
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 15:03:06 GMT
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           "Iran Contributed $500,000 to Bosnian President's
                      Election Effort, U.S.Says"

                        N.Y.Times, Jan.1, 1997

	"Even as the United States was trying to roll back Iran's
influence with the Muslim-led Government of Bosnia, Iran contributed
at least ...

	The Central Intelligence Agency ...

	... the officials said ...

     The Administration ...

     Officials at the State Department ...

	John R. Dinger, a spokesman for the State Department ...

	But the officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity ...

	The United States, the official and others said ..."

========================================================================

	Well we can get the picture. When the U.S. medias say, "U.S. Says
..." it can often be just a couple of people, quite often with them
being cited on the "conditions of anonymity".

	More often than not this kind of thing is customary with
reporting on things that have a Jewish interest, such as Bosnia -
Muslim - Iran. 

	Then there are the other variations, "U.S. Condemns ...", "U.S.
Calls for ...", "U.S." this or that.

	"U.S. Says ..."?   A few people, often anonymous. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  1 10:33:06 PST 1997
Article: 90378 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "U.S. Says ..." ?
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 17:15:24 GMT
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>tom moran wrote:
>> 
> 
>[deleted]
>
>> 
>>         But the officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity ...
>> 
>>         The United States, the official and others said ..."
>> 
>
>But how are the wife and kids, zeyde?

	Why do you ask?

>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  1 10:33:07 PST 1997
Article: 90379 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Muench" on this
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 17:27:46 GMT
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>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>> 
>> Dr. Muench, the darling of Daniel keren and Mark Van Alstine, is frequently
>> quoted as an alleged witness to a gassing at Auschwitz.  Now, since he WAS
>> a doctor, and doctors were in charge of selections, I wondered how it was that
>> this man was spared from the gallows.  I believe I have since found out:
>
>Even if Dr. Muench was acquitted because he plea bargained (I have no
>way of verifying this and don't think it is important in any event), why
>would that necessarily invalidate his testimony, as you seem to imply? 
>There is lots of other evidence against the doctors of Auschwitz, and
>there is tons of evidence for the gassings that occurred there.  Perhaps
>Dr. Muench was just trying to save his skin?
>
>If you apply your logic to main Nuremberg Trial, you would have to agree
>that Speer plea bargained his way to a 20 year sentence and therefore,
>his testimony is also invalid.  Is that your position?
>
	This bird brain says "tons of evidence for the gassings"? Tons of
false testimony maybe, but no evidence.

>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  1 10:33:07 PST 1997
Article: 90381 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Swiss Pres. says Jewish Scheme - "extortion"
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 15:44:29 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>
>	Could it be the Swiss President reads alt.revisionism and picked
>up on Moran's use of the word "extortion" in reporting on the
>extortion scheme?
>
>	Could it be we will be seeing a statue of Moran standing in a
>Swiss rotunda? 
>
>	Moran urges all to write to the Swiss government calling for them
>to make Moran a national hero. 

	Can you picture it? Moran riding triumphant into Zurich in a
chariot made of gold, millions waving and throwing currency into the
streets to make a poetic carpet of tribute.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  1 10:33:08 PST 1997
Article: 90382 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Swiss Pres. says Jewish Scheme - "extortion"
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 15:40:24 GMT
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	Could it be the Swiss President reads alt.revisionism and picked
up on Moran's use of the word "extortion" in reporting on the
extortion scheme?

	Could it be we will be seeing a statue of Moran standing in a
Swiss rotunda? 

	Moran urges all to write to the Swiss government calling for them
to make Moran a national hero. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  1 10:33:09 PST 1997
Article: 90383 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 17:55:45 GMT
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>For years now, I keep hearing about the "evil Nazis" who are blatant
>"Holocaust deniers". Why is the denial of some part of generally-accepted
>history considered anti-Semitic? What if someone chooses to disbelieve the
>events which occurred during the Salem witch-hunts? Will this person be
>considered anti-Wiccan or anti-Puritan?
>
>After all, "anti-Semitism" concerns being against the Semitic people. As
>such, I can understand someone being called a "Nazi" for saying things like
>"fucking Jew" or Jew this and that, but how does the Holocaust fit in this?
>
>Is disbelief in some event a "bad thing"? If so, what can be said about
>those who do not believe in Christ? Shouldn't they be considered "evil
>anti-Christians"?
>
>I'm not interested in the rights or wrongs of Nazism or Zionism, but rather
>would like to discuss the almost taboo-like onus placed on discussions
>concerning the events called the Holocaust.
>
	"Anti-Semitism" is a tool, like in
     "Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism". 



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  1 11:07:52 PST 1997
Article: 90387 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonial Fiction
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 13:22:36 GMT
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>tom moran  wrote:
>: Treblinka chapter of the Holocaust story has it that the 40 acre camp
>: was built one year where the Germans exterminated up to 2,000,000 the
>
>Obviously not 2 000 000. But several hundred thousands
>of people were gassed in Treblinka camp.
>If you are an idiot, don't inform the whole world about it.
>                        Your truly,
>                     Jerzy Pankiewicz

	Holocaust facts are made up of eyewitness accounts. It doesn't
matter what the current figures are that Holocaust scholars or whoever
chose to use. The revisionist is not bound to accept any number. If
one account has it hundreds of thousands were killed at Treblinka and
another has it 2,000,000, I can use any figure I want. In fact I do.
The only thing a defender of the story can do is announce one figure
correct which at the same time would make the other false.

	It's a problem.

	I will continue to use the 2,000,000 figure. If someone wants to
challenge it, which hasn't happened til now, let them be the ones to
say 'Okay, Leleko was wrong, 2,000,000 number is wrong, but all the
other stuff he said was true'.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  1 11:46:35 PST 1997
Article: 90389 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 13:21:29 GMT
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>
>
>The Crackow team has demonstrated that HCN was present in the homicidal
>gas chambers at levels above background.  Deniers have no explanation for 
>the presence of HCN in a facility built after the typhoid epidemic at
>levels above background.

	Background levels are sample readings taken of a general area to
get an idea if any readings taken from a intended point of interest is
not really just something that prevails generally but is peculiar to
the point of interest. 

	As the Random House Dictionary puts it under "background" - 6.
"physics, the totality of effects that tend to obscure a phenomenon
under investigation and above which the phenomenon must be detected."

	Mr.Green's idea of this procedure is to compare the readings
taken from areas subjected to one set of conditions against another
area not subject to the same conditions. Basically readings from areas
that are at ground level and were subjected to "100 feet" of acid rain
as opposed to readings taken from inside barracks with the reverse
conditions.

	Mr.Green has failed to meet a previous challenge for him to get a
endorsement for his claims from his collegues at the Chemistry Dept.
he is associated with.

>It should be noted that the researchers used a calibrated method and that
>they discriminated against Prussian blue whose origin is not clear.
>Leuchter and Rudolf did not do so.
>
>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/post-leuchter.report  
>
>Mr. Moran will predictably repost the same nonsense about oleander
>leaves and coke; if so, I'll happily post my previous refutation of
>that garbage.
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>
>-- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud   Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>"Remember the days of yore,
>"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
>       -Deuteronomy 32:7



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  1 11:54:12 PST 1997
Article: 90393 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Strange Holocaust "gas" properties
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 13:22:05 GMT
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>In <32e4f474.4378456@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>wrote:

>And then Tom Moran has himself a good little laugh about the mass
>murder of human beings.

	If I thought for one nano-second that the story was true I
wouldn't be knocking it. I'm knocking fiction, lies.

>--
> John Morris                                
> at University of Alberta  
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  1 12:19:27 PST 1997
Article: 90394 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 13:21:39 GMT
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>Mr. Moran will predictably repost the same nonsense about oleander
>leaves and coke; if so, I'll happily post my previous refutation of
>that garbage.

>Regards,

>Rich Green

	The following is are the "Final Remarks" of the report Mr.Green
speaks.


"Final Remarks"

"The  present study shows that in spite of the passage of a
considerable period of time (over 45 years) in the walls of
the facilities which once were in contact with hydrogen
cyanide the vestigial amounts of the combinations of this
constituent of Zyklon B have been preserved. This is also
true of the ruins of the former gas chambers. The cyanide
compounds occur in the building materials only locally, in
the places where the conditions arose for their formation
and persistence for such a long time."


>ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/post-leuchter.report


                         ==================
	As for the whole report, which can be located at the URL given by
Mr.Green, the following is a summary of this report.

As we can see from the tests, the agent HCN does not fair well
under time and weather. Even after a limited flushing with distilled
water and a months time, 100% of the agent can disappear.
	So how do we explain the finding of any HCN after all these
years and 100 feet of acid rain? We don't. No HCN was found, as is
clear from the report. Only cyanide "compounds", "groups" or "ions"
were detected.
	Cyanide compounds are found naturally. Carbon and Nitrogen are
relatively common elements that have a wide range of easy combatant
capabilities with other elements and each other. Cyanide compounds can
be found under a list of organic molecules. They can be organic
constituents of life, and are in fact even produced by organic
processes, such as fair amounts are found in cherry pits and Oleander
leaves.
	Nitrogen and Carbon are readily found in soils. Nitrogen is one
of the major proportions of earth's air. Carbon and Nitrogen can
combine with each other quite easily in geological, natural formats.
CN, cyanide, can attach to a whole array of other elements and
molecules and thus come under the heading "cyanide compound" or
"group" with a full array of variations.
	Chemical equations of various cyanide compounds are extensive
and some show that when tests are done to detect Cyanides starting off
with chemicals in a water solution the other side of the equation
shows that even the H2O has been broken down and its components H and
O reincorporated into something else.  	
	Most likely whatever was found during these tests was probably
CN compounds created within a short time from the time the samples
were taken. New ones precipitate from the material like the white
niter or ammonium nitrate that we can see under bridges and tunnels,
or in caves, only to wash away and be replaced.

	The report does not make any conclusions on why such radically
different findings can be arrived at from the same room or even within
a single piece of material, when we can suggest this is analogous to
naturally occurring precipitous action that tend to congregate in
patches, having found localized conditions for easy precipitation from
within the interior of the structures material.
	The report does not make a stab at explaining why such low
traces were found in fumigation chambers, in some cases being zero,
when we would expect to find high levels. Judging by photographs of
still extent fumigation chambers, the interiors of these facilities
have been protected from weather conditions.
	On the other hand, the highest amounts of cyanide compounds
found, outside of that detected in the Prussian blue stains in the
fumigation chambers and the bathhouse, are those found in Crema I and
II, and the amounts said to have been found in the cellar of "block
11", all underground structures built of concrete, prone to dampness
and thus prime places for the dynamics of precipitous deposit to
occur.
	No test were taken that would constitute 'background levels' such
as samples from a few feet to a few hundred feet away, from the ground
or other foundations and structural points in contact with the ground
and subject to rain and wind blown material. The suggestion that
samples from barracks, that were and still are covered over, protected
>from  the elements, is legitimate source to take 'background levels' is
corrupt or uneducated. 
	Cyanide traces can be found in many natural locations. One method
for the commercial recovery of HCN is from coke producing processes,
coke being produced on a huge scale then and now. Most of the HCN
produced in this extensively used coking process is given off in
emissions into the atmosphere. The amounts of cyanide compounds found
at Auschwitz, outside of Prussian blue, were incredibly minute.   

	The Crakow Report does not prove, nor does it's "Final Remarks"
claim, that any of the extremely minute amounts of cyanide compounds
found originated from gassing.
- 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  1 12:19:27 PST 1997
Article: 90399 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Swiger's Holocaust Nonesense
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 13:23:03 GMT
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>In article <32c49178.539997574@news.dmsc.net>, 
>cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger) wrote:

	 "I am completely apolitical in that regard, I assure you."

"I assure you." is the statement and the contents of Nizkor is the
reality. 


>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
>--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Search Nizkor:        http://www.nizkor.org/search.html



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan  2 11:10:22 PST 1997
Article: 90579 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Poor "unbalanced" Jewish gunman
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 15:32:59 GMT
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	"Israeli Wounds 6 Arabs in Hebron Rampage"
              N.Y.Times, Jan.2, 1997

	An Israeli soldier who had a history of mental problems opened
fire on a crowded Palestinian market today ..."

	Thus we have the first reports on the latest manifestation of
religious and ethnocentric insanity to come out of th land of the
"chosen".

	This article blazing on the front page of the N.Y.Times is
accompanied by a insert introduction to an expanded article on page 6,
titled "Gunman in Hebron Unbalanced Loner Driven by a Mission" full
with a photograph of the ethnocentrically insane perpetrator.

	"When he fired into a market in Hebron yesterday, Pvt.Noam
Friedman, above, who left his army unit in Jerusalem and boarded a bus
to the west Bank city, joined the ranks of Jews who used violence to
block a peace they loathed.

	Like Yigal Amir, who shot Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1995,
he claimed religious justification. And like Dr.Baruch Goldstein, a 37
year old physician who killed 29 Muslims in Hebron in 1994, he turned
his hatred on Palestinians.

	But he appears to have been a seriously unbalanced man ..."

	So here we have the beginning of a repeat performance in the U.S.
medias that accompanied the Baruch Goldstein slaughter, the profile of
a Jewish killer and the focus on his "unbalanced" mental state. When
it comes to reporting on any Palestinian actions we are given the evil
Arab sans profile as to any extenuating circumstances.

	In the days that followed the Baruch Goldstein incident we were
subjected to a series of articles, columns and editorials accommodated
to Jews here in the U.S. to explain what happened. A summary analysis
of what was written between the lines would be a pleading of a
'justifiable insanity defense'. Rabbis led the way, explaining to us
how it was the evil Arabs that caused the killer to commit what he
did. Like a Elie Wiesel statement, "I can't say anything bad about
another Jew", the writers couldn't just come out and denounce the
Goldstein incident directly, opting to chutzpah between the lines to a
Arab responsibility.   

	We can wait and watch the next few days to see if we are going be
getting the same thing. It seems to be in the workings already. The
private Noam Friedman is "unbalanced". A rare exception, so to speak.

	Going to the continuation of killers profile on page 6 we see "An
Unbalanced Loner With a Rifle" across the top of the three columns and
another bold lettered insert, "Israelis discover an extremist of a
different sort", all this intended to show the person as a exception
to any prevalent mental state.

	The article and the associated articles touch on things he said
after, such as, "They aren't innocents. They are haters of Israel" and
"Abraham bought the Cave of the Patriarchs for 400 shekels of silver.
No one will return it".

	No matter how much anyone will try to show Friedman's acts are
the result of his being insane, we cannot escape the fact that his
insanity was the result of his upbringing of fanaticism.

	Anyway, the excuses have begun, he was "unbalanced".

	In another section on the same page we have a rabbi dishing out a
spoon full of chutzpah, "Rabbi Moshe Levinger, who led the first
Jewish settlers in Hebron in 1968, insisted today that only the army's
presence had prevented vengeful Arab crowds from attacking the
settlement enclaves today.
	'Had the army not imposed a curfew and stationed armored vehicles
on hills of Hebron, scores of Jews, women and children would have been
killed,' he said. 'This is a sign of what could happen if the army
leaves'".

	So in the end we have this rabbi, Jewish religious leader, opting
to propagandize for the continuing presence of Jewish troops in
Hebron, presently the main point of dispute taking place right now
with Israeli - Palestinian negotiations, instead of just denouncing
the incident directly.

	The documented record of rabbis speaking in our medias compared
to what leaders of other religions would say, shows there is a major
difference in mental states.

	In the end it was the tenets of Judaism that brought on the
mental state of Friedman, led by the rabbis.   


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan  2 11:10:23 PST 1997
Article: 90590 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Swiss Pres. says Jewish Scheme - "extortion"
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 15:33:04 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 27
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>	
>	"Swiss President Calls Pleas for a Holocaust Fund 'Blackmail'"
>                        N.Y.Times, Jan. 1, 1997

	Reported in Santa Monica's daily newspaper "The Outlook" we are
given the opinions of the mad dog duo from the Simon Wiesenthal
Center, rabbis Marvin Hier and Abraham Cooper.

	"It is the height of 'chutzpa' for the head of a state which made
billions of dollars as a result of it's financial dealings with the
Nazi Third Reich to label, 55 years later, the demands for justice and
restitution for it's victims as 'blackmail'". 

	Of course "chutzpa" is a Jewish word which describes a method of
interaction taught to Jews from an early age in their dealings with
goyim. Random House Dictionary defines it as, "unmitigated effrontery
or impudence". 

	The act of trying to extort billions form the Swiss is a real
example of "chutzpa".

	To make matters even more zany, here we have the rabbis
unwittingly implying it is a bad thing, when in fact it is the
foremost thing taught to Jews from day one, and yet too we had Alan
Dershowitz writing a book "CHUTZPA" where he portrays it as a good
thing that Jews should exercise more than they have been, which is at
the saturation point already.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan  2 14:46:35 PST 1997
Article: 90608 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Swiss Pres. says Jewish Scheme - "extortion"
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 18:11:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <32ddf9d6.14374916@199.0.216.204>
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>
>	Could it be the Swiss President reads alt.revisionism and picked
>up on Moran's use of the word "extortion" in reporting on the
>extortion scheme?
>
>	Could it be we will be seeing a statue of Moran standing in a
>Swiss rotunda? 

	Due to a subsequent Zundel ZGram, "Music to the Ears", partly
recounting Mr.Zundels labeling of the Holocaust as an extortion racket
years ago, Moran recognizes he can not take all the credit for the
Swiss President's picking up on the word "extortion".

	I this case, instead of just a statue of Moran alone, Moran
suggest a statue in a Swiss rotunda featuring a sitting Mr.Zundel, ala
Pharaoh style, with a little Moran sitting on his lap. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan  3 07:42:10 PST 1997
Article: 90738 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B / Carbon monoxide comparison
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 14:58:16 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Other necessities and problems that arose, according to the
Holocaust story, would be the need for ladders to get to side windows
on Cremas IV and V, to pour in the Zyklon B pellets.

	Then too, going by the suggestions of major defenders of
Holocuast truth, the Germans built the gas chambers of Crema II and
III underground so they could get on the roof, Brian Harmon, and/or to
keep the victims from knocking the walls down, Jamie McCarthy, and
thus require carrying all the bodies up stairs.  




From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan  3 09:09:58 PST 1997
Article: 90754 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Brainwashing
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 15:52:11 GMT
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	Random House Dictionary:

"brainwashing, 1. a method for systematically changing attitudes or
altering beliefs, esp. through the use of torture, drugs, or
psychological-stress techniques. 2. any method of controlled
systematic indoctrination. 3. an instance of treatment by such a
method."

	"2." is the one we want to define what happens that leads to
ethnocentric obsessions and all actions committed as a result of the
brainwashing. 

	"2. any method of controlled systematic indoctrination" is what
we can look at when it comes to reviewing any cause and effect on
Jewish history.

	"2. any method of controlled systematic indoctrination" is what
leads to 'clone' goose stepping.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan  3 12:30:35 PST 1997
Article: 90790 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B / Carbon monoxide comparison
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 18:51:40 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Webcrawler > "carbon monoxide poisoning" will bring you to a
number of sites on the subject.

	What would the Germans have known about CO poisoning and who
would have needed engines to extract carbon monoxide to exterminate
people? Consider this.

"What is the history of carbon monoxide?

Historical Highlights of Carbon Monoxide Toxicology:

"Coal fumes lead to heavy head and death." --- Aristotle, 3rd c. B.C.,
Greece

Coal fumes were used for suicide and execution ---- Cicero, 106-43
BC), Rome

First clinical description of coal gas poisoning ----- Harmant (1775),
France

Identified CO as the toxic substance in coal gas ---- LeBlanc (1842),
France"




From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan  3 13:08:28 PST 1997
Article: 90807 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Typical Nature of Holocaust Accounts
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 16:22:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	The "extermination" camp Treblinka was still in operation when
the Russians took over.

"When the Russians took over the Treblinka complex and the nearly dead
survivors had recovered sufficiently to communicate, the tales that
they poured out were not limited to the horrors they had endured.
These called for no review. There was no lack of physical evidence on
display, the suffocated bodies in recently arrived cattle cars, the
abandoned instruments of torture and death, the files and records that
the Germans had so carefully maintained. It was the repeated tales of
senseless cruelty that increased the Russian fury; mothers obliged to
carry their infants to their deaths ...; the woman on her way to the
gas chamber, goaded to desperation by a taunting SS man, who threw
herself upon him, and was then tortured by his comrades to emphasize
the cost of remonstrance. The prisoners remembered the little boy who
consoled his weeping parents on the edge of their mass grave with the
assurance that the Russians would avenge them. They did so, wasting no
time on due process." (Sachar, 34-35)

                            Work Cited

Sachar, Abram L. The Redemption of the Unwanted. 
   New York: St. Martin's/Marek, 1983.

===========================================================================

	The Germans had destroyed the camp before the Russians took over.

"After the uprising, on August 18 and 19, 1943, another two
transports slated for extermination arrived in Treblinka, bringing
Jews from Bialystok. Shortly afterward the Germans destroyed the gas
chambers and the other installations that remained after the revolt,
and with that put an end to the camp.  While the liquidation of the
camp was no doubt in accord with a plan that predated the uprising,
its timing was probably moved up in wake of the revolt.  On October 20
most of the remaining Jewish prisoners were transferred to Sobibor,
where they were killed.  Another 25-30 prisoners remained in Treblinka
and were shot there a few days later.  In order to cover up the crime,
a farm-house was built on the site of the camp, trees were planted,
and a Ukrainian peasant was employed to guard the deserted place."

Nizkor "Holocaust Educational" files   


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan  3 13:50:43 PST 1997
Article: 90812 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Friedrich Berg & Diesel Exhaust
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 16:32:07 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>Friedrich Berg's UseNet articles are available via the Nizkor
>Project, via URL
>
>http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/berg.friedrich/   ...
>anyone doubting the man's rabid antisemitism, or the companion
>Holocaust denial, is welcome to consider his words for themselves.
>
>As to his paper, the URL above is highly recommended:
>http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/diesel-1.html
>
>I trust you will find it useful. (Berg didn't seem to enjoy it all
>that much.)

	Anything this Berg said, is what Berg said and is about him only,
having nothing to do with anyone or anything else.

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
>--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Search Nizkor:        http://www.nizkor.org/search.html



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan  3 20:05:49 PST 1997
Article: 90862 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B / Carbon monoxide comparison
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 17:46:36 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 34
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>         Other necessities and problems that arose, according to the
>> Holocaust story, would be the need for ladders to get to side windows
>> on Cremas IV and V, to pour in the Zyklon B pellets.
>
>Omigosh, _ladders_, they had to get _ladders_.
>
>Well, clearly they would never do such a thing.  That requires a level
>of technical expertise which the Nazis were (Autobahn, V2, U-boat)
>clearly not capable of.  The Holocaust must never have happened.

	Of course no where was it implied the ladders were some
technological innovation. Just having top use them was the topic.

>>         Then too, going by the suggestions of major defenders of
>> Holocuast truth, the Germans built the gas chambers of Crema II and
>> III underground so they could get on the roof, Brian Harmon, and/or to
>> keep the victims from knocking the walls down, Jamie McCarthy, and
>> thus require carrying all the bodies up stairs.
>
>Which stairs would those be?  The ones next to the corpse-lift elevator?

	The stairs in Cremas II and III. If there was a elevator in one
of them, okay. Then we can see that elevators were needed to
accomodate the use of Zyklon B. So what we have now is, elevators and
ladders. Not needed for carbon monoxide, according to Holocaust
'facts'. 

>Posted/emailed.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan  3 20:05:50 PST 1997
Article: 90869 of alt.revisionism
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B / Carbon monoxide comparison
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 01:45:15 GMT
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

	

># Below is a comparison of the two agents for Holocaust
># exterminations according to the 'facts' of the Holocaust
># story itself.
>
># Handling; 
># Zyklon B.
>#  =========
>#       Need gas masks.
>
>They had them anyway, as the Zyklon was used for fumigation.
	Not needed for CO extermination.

>#        Gloves suggested.
>
>Now that's a real difficulty. Moran, Moran. You are a lost case.
	Not needed for CO extermination.

>#        Special levers to take off lids.

>Really big problem there.
	Not needed for CO extermination.


>#        Special training.
>
>They had the trained people anyway, as the Zyklon was used for 
>fumigation.
	Not needed for CO extermination.
 
>#       Awkward introduction systems.
>
>"Awkward"? No more "awkward" than in the gas chambers that used
>engine exhaust.
	Vents on roofs, holes in sides, wire mesh columns. One account
has "The first gassing in crematorium IV did not go well. An SS man,
wearing a face mask, had to climb a little ladder to get to a
'window,' then open it with one hand and pour in the Zyklon B with the
other. This acrobatic routine had to be repeated six times." [2]
	Definitly not needed for CO exterminations.

>#        Need to heat the chambers in order to accelerate emission.
>
>It turned out that this was hardly necessary.
	As it was they did it. (Not needed for CO extermination.) There
were also heaters used to increase the activity for Zyklon B use in
fumigation chambers.) (Not needed for CO extermination.)


>#        Ventilation systems.
>
>Really big problem for a nation that built jet planes, submarines,
>and rockets that flew all the way to London.
	Who said anything about technological difficulties? Not needed
for CO extermination.  


>#        Doctors.
>
>Doctors also supervied the gassings with CO in the "euthanasia"
>centers. Anyway, what's the big deal? Why do you think it was
>such a big problem?
	Not needed for CO extermination. 


>#        Washing out the chambers after each gassing.
>
>But this also had to be done in the gas chambers that used engine
>exhaust.
	How many eyewitness accounts have it so? One? Evidently there
wasn't a problem, accordingly. Not needed for CO extermination.


>#        Protective clothing for Sonderkommando workers.
>
>What was this "protective clothing"?
	Rubber suits? Boots? Does Mr.Keren ask because he denies the
story has that component, or is it a quiz question? Either way; Not
needed for CO extermination.


>#        Need to sweep up pellets which still held considerable agent.
>
>No big deal, especially since this was the job of the sonderkommando;
>moreover, this was no problem in the Krema II & III gas chambers, as
>the Zyklon was taken out via the same deviced used to introduce it.
	Not needed for CO extermination.


># Handling;
>#  Carbon monoxide
>#  ===============
>#       Pipes into chambers     
>
>This wasn't easier than constructing the insertion devices for
>Zyklon-B.
	"Insertion devises" to mean concrete, pourous, wire mesh and/or
sheet metal columns? Not needed for CO extermination.

>#        Engine exhaust connected to pipes
>#        Start engine
>
>So you have to get the engines. They may break down. You have
>no idea how many engines you would need, as the Auschwitz-Birkenau
>gas chambers were much larger than those in Treblinka and Belzec.
	For a "nation that built jet planes, submarines, and rockets that
flew all the way to London" it doesn't seem like such a hard thing.
Simple mathematics - amount of exhaust from a specified displacement,
the contents of CO in the amount, the volume of the chamber, the
number of people. How did they come to figure the chambers needs that
are said to have been used? Mr.Keren? 


># Availability;
>#  Zyklon B
>#  ========
>#        Has to be ordered and shipped from manufacturer.  
>
>But they already had tons of the stuff, which was being used for
>fumigation. With a few little cans of Zyklon, they killed 2,000
>people. Surely that was no problem.
	Now it's a "few little cans"? A "few". Does he say how many a few
is? Seems not. Anyway, this is the second time Mr.Keren says they
already had the stuff around, and this is correct, for fumigation
purposes. When it came time at the end of the war to identify the
agent of mass gassings, they grasp at anything that was available,
and the only thing around was - Zyklon B.


># Availability;
>#  Carbon monoxide
>#  ===============
>#        Any motor vehicle engine. Basically, everywhere, anytime.
>#        The same stuff that can be gotten from any car or truck.
>
>Assuming it would work with such large gas chambers. And you would
>need rather large engines.
	Really? Now suddenly Mr.Keren knows what it would take. We can
wait to see what he has to say about the other information in the
thread where it shows a small 4 Horse Power engine can produce enough
gas to kill someone in a non-hemetically sealed room of over 4,000
cubic feet in 30 minutes.

># Costs (theoretical);
>#  Zyklon B
>#  =========     
>#        Twelve dollars per gassing
>
>And that would be a problem? $12 to kill 2,000 people? They
>couldn't afford it?
	The record shows Mr.Keren is the one who raised the cost saving
theory for using Zyklon B over CO.
	

># Costs (theoretical);
>#  Carbon monoxide
>#  ===============
>#        Three cents per gassing.
>#        At least 50 times cheaper than Zyklon B.
>
>How did you derive the three cents figure?
	Okay, we can make it 6 cents, even a dollar, whatever.
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
	Did Mr.Keren post this just for Moran, or was it intended to for
anyone who reads it? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan  3 20:05:51 PST 1997
Article: 90872 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B / Carbon monoxide comparison
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 18:44:52 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 92
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	The following are from a report on various carbon monoxide
poisonings. We can see from the particulars that small engines from 4
to 13 horse power could deliver enough CO to a room of 3,420 cubic
feet, and not intentionally hermetically sealed as is the case for
Holocaust testimonies, and still be able to put someone to the brink
of death in 30 minutes.


STUDY 2

Center for Disease Control. Unintentional carbon monoxide poisoning
>from  indoor use of pressure washers - Iowa, January 1992 - 1993. JAMA,
270:2034-35, 1993

Case 1 : A 33 year old farm owner was using an 11 HP gasoline pressure
washer to clean a swine birthing area inside a barn. He was working
alone in this 3420 ft3 area with the door closed on this cold (-7 to
20?F) day. Based on the amount of work he had finished when he was
found dead, he had been overcome in about 30 minutes. His COHb was
75.6%.

	[So here we can see that a person was killed from exposure to CO
delivered from a small engine into an area of 3,420 cubic feet in 30
minutes. Holocaust gas chambers were basically 12 X 12 X 7 feet, about
1000 cubic feet, intentionally designed to be hermetically sealed. The
CO is said to have been introduced from large "truck", "tank" or
"submarine" engines. The people are said to have died in 15 minutes.

	So what is all the talk about CO not being sufficient and being
replaced by Zyklon B?  Well it's the testimony of Ho'ss that caused
the whole confusing necessity to devise other testimonies about
switching over to Zyklon B.  

	One of the basic alibis is given as because the engines kept
breaking down. Of course all over Europe and the world, these engines
were lugging cargo, propelling tanks and submarines and yet when it
comes to them being used just to recover their exhaust, not under the
stress of load, they were always breaking down. 

	How idiotic. ]


	[Check this one out. 4480 cubic feet, doors open, 4 HP engine,
intermittenly used over a 7 hour period with a exhaust fan, and yet
enough to put her to the brink.]

Case 3 : A 35 year old farm owner was found by her husband to have
slurred speech, weakness and confusion. Over a 7 hour period, she had
been intermittently using a 4 HP gasoline pressure washer to clean a
calf raising area (4480 cubic feet). Outdoor temperatures were about
32?F, so she had set the washer inside the building about 5 feet from
an open doorway. The other 2 doors in the room were also open, and an
exhaust fan was running.
 
	
Case 2 : A 12 year old boy was found unconscious near the door of a
4480 cubic foot swine birthing area that he had been cleaning with a
rented 11 HP gasoline pressure washer for about 30 minutes. Again, due
to cold temperatures, the washer had been placed inside the building
(about 5 feet from the door.)

He was taken to the hospital, where his COHb was determined to be 50%.
He received hyperbaric oxygen therapy and was discharged after 8 days
of hospitalization.

	[Check this one, 5148 cubic feet, 13 HP engine, in another room,
3 exhaust fans.]

Case 4 : A 32 year old farm owner was found by her husband to be
confused, dizzy, nauseated, weak and experiencing a headache and
muscle pain. She had been cleaning a 5148 cubic foot swine birthing
area with a 13 HP gasoline pressure washer intermittently for 6.5
hours. The washer was located in an adjacent room, and 3 exhaust fans
were operating in the room being cleaned. It was suspected that the
door leading to the adjacent room blew open sometime during the final
hour of work, allowing CO to enter the room being cleaned.

Her COHb was 9.2% 5 hours post-exposure and after receiving oxygen
therapy for 30 minutes.


Case 5 : A 37 year old farm owner was found by his wife to be
extremely weak, dizzy and confused. He had been using a 9 HP gasoline
pressure washer to clean a 6480 cubic foot unventilated swine birthing
area for about 30 minutes. His symptoms appeared when he began to
refuel the washer, located inside the building. He crawled into the
house, where his wife found him and took him to the hospital. 





From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan  4 09:44:11 PST 1997
Article: 90943 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Typical Unsigned Editorial
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 14:47:49 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Generally the N.Y.Times carries three unsigned editorials in it's
editorial section located on the same page as the 'letters to the
editor'.

	The Jewish community gets ready accommodation for both formats on
this page, not to exclude the next page where the regular lopsided
number of Jewish columnists and guest columns get their daily fare.

	Today Jan. 4, 1997, unsigned editorial, number one at the top, as
is the usual case,

	           "The Disappearing Hebron Deal"

	"Only a few days ago, Israelis and Palestinians seemed ready to
sign an agreement on withdrawing most Israeli troops from Hebron, the
last West Bank city ... Now the bargaining positions of the two sides
have slipped so far apart that Dennis Ross, the American mediator, is
thinking about coming home.

	Wednesday's shooting of Palestinian civilians by a crazed Israeli
soldier should have reminded everyone of the dangers of further delay.
Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has courageously pressed
ahead with plans for troop withdrawals in Hebron, despite opposition
>from  a militant Jewish settler movement and a large minority of his
Cabinet.

	Yasir Arafat, sadly, has neither appreciated nor reciprocated
this enlightened stand ...

	Both leaders acted commendably after the shooting incident ...
Mr.Arafat immediately made it clear to Palestinians that violent
reprisals would not be tolerated.

	That is quite a contrast to their behavior three months ago ,
when Mr.Arafat's verbal incitements and Mr.Netanyahu's reckless
opening of a new tourist tunnel ...

	This time the two men seemed to appreciate that, like it or not,
they share responsibility for keeping the peace and that outbursts of
violence produce only losers. But Mr.Arafat quickly forgot that point
and started acting as if a crime committed by an Israeli against
Palestinians somehow strengthened his hand in the Hebron bargaining.

	He demanded that a letter from Washington already agreed on now
also spell out a timetable ... He also increased his pressure for a
Palestinian police presence at Hebron's holiest site ...

	As Wednesday's shooting incident underlines any Hebron agreement
must assure the security of Palestinian civilians as well as Israeli
settlers. But the events following the shooting, with Israeli soldiers
immediately disarming and arresting the gunman, showed that the
Israeli Army is capable of meeting the challenge.

	Mr.Arafat's concern about furture Israeli troop withdrawals is
also undrstandable. .... But Israel is already committed to by the
Oslo peace agreements to pull back from these areas, and just last
week Mr.Arafat appeared willing to settle for a letter outlining only
the first phase of withdrawal. Mr. Netanyahu cannot go further without
his cabinet's vetoing the agreement.

	By delaying a Hebron agreement over these two issues, Mr.Arafat
is postponing further steps toward peace and giving fanatics on both
sides more time to do their worst." 	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan  4 09:44:12 PST 1997
Article: 90949 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Typical 'letter to the editor'
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 14:47:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	              "What American Friend"
                  N.Y.Times, Dec.31, 1996

	"Contrary to Edward W.Miller's (letter, Dec. 27), Israel was not
'god fathered' at birth by the United States or 'nursed' ...with
life-sustaining monies'. The times the United States 'rushed' to
Israel's aid have been few and far between.

	The United States imposed an embargo on arms to the Middle East
during the Israeli war of independence, despite evidence that the Arab
states were well armed. When Israel defended its interests in the 1056
Sinai campaign, the United States led the calls for Israel to
withdraw, setting the stage for the 1967 Six-Day War.

	In the wake of that war, the United States joined the chorus of
attacks on Israel.

	United States aid to Israel is a recent phenomenon. Israel does
not exist because of United States policy nut despite it.

                                                   Avi Deitcher


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan  4 09:44:13 PST 1997
Article: 90952 of alt.revisionism
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical 'letter to the editor'
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 15:40:40 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 55
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>
>	              "What American Friend"
>                  N.Y.Times, Dec.31, 1996
>
>	"Contrary to Edward W.Miller's (letter, Dec. 27), Israel was not
>'god fathered' at birth by the United States or 'nursed' ...with
>life-sustaining monies'. The times the United States 'rushed' to
>Israel's aid have been few and far between.

	Incredible lie. 

>	The United States imposed an embargo on arms to the Middle East
>during the Israeli war of independence, despite evidence that the Arab
>states were well armed. When Israel defended its interests in the 1056
>Sinai campaign, the United States led the calls for Israel to
>withdraw, setting the stage for the 1967 Six-Day War.

	(Correction, "When Israel defended its interests in the 1956
...")

	"War of independence"? If so, then also the European war against
the American Indian.

	The Jews went there to commit their "war of independence".

	The world should just let the Jews do what they please.

>	In the wake of that war, the United States joined the chorus of
>attacks on Israel.

	One of the very few times the U.S. ever condemned Israeli
actions.

>	United States aid to Israel is a recent phenomenon. Israel does
>not exist because of United States policy nut despite it.

	Thoroughly idiotic insult to any reader. U.S. support has been
there from year one. It was the activity of the U.S. that overcame the
intitial League of Nations overwhelming vote not to sanction the
creation of a Jewish state. Since then the U.S. has supplied the Jews
with everything they want, including nuclear weapons, and consistent
vetoing of U.N. resolutions against the Jewish state.

	The whole documented relationship makes this person's chutzpa -
obviously chutzpa. 

>                                                   Avi Deitcher


	We can see here this letter is in response to another letter of a
rare type that finds it's way into the American medias. You will not
see others given accomodation to reply to letters. We can see that
this letter made it into the paper just four days after the intial
letter. Quite often letters can be accomodated on the next day,
whereas goyim letters may take a couple of weeks.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan  4 09:44:14 PST 1997
Article: 90962 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Six Hundred Thousand Lives
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 13:51:55 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 13
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>
>                        BELZEC
>
>This camp, as shown in John C. Ball's book "Air Photo Evidence"
>was located just down the road from the town of Belzec, and right in
>the immediate area of other Polish residences and commercial and
>industrial complexes.

	The photos in this book of various camps, including Belzec, are
ones you will not see used in the relentless frenzied Holocaust
promotional campaign.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan  4 09:44:14 PST 1997
Article: 90963 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimony of Rudolf Reder
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 13:52:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 13
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>
>                           BELZEC
>
>This camp, as shown in John C. Ball's book "Air Photo Evidence"
>was located just down the road from the town of Belzec, and right in
>the immediate area of other Polish residences and commercial and
>industrial complexes.

	The photos in this book of various camps, including Belzec, are
ones you will not see used in the relentless frenzied Holocaust
promotional campaign.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan  4 09:44:15 PST 1997
Article: 90965 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical Nature of Holocaust Accounts
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 13:33:47 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <32ce5be5.547053@199.0.216.204>
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>>assurance that the Russians would avenge them. They did so, wasting no
>>time on due process." (Sachar, 34-35)
>>
>>                            Work Cited
>>
>>Sachar, Abram L. The Redemption of the Unwanted. 
>>   New York: St. Martin's/Marek, 1983.
>
>	Isn't this the one that Nizkook Kentral now claims was a
>mistke?  

	Giwer, you forgot to put "mistake" in quote marks. N K's exact
word.

>>===========================================================================
>>
>>	The Germans had destroyed the camp before the Russians took over.
>>
>>"After the uprising, on August 18 and 19, 1943, another two
>>transports slated for extermination arrived in Treblinka, bringing
>>Jews from Bialystok. Shortly afterward the Germans destroyed the gas
>>chambers and the other installations that remained after the revolt,
>>and with that put an end to the camp.  While the liquidation of the
>>camp was no doubt in accord with a plan that predated the uprising,
>>its timing was probably moved up in wake of the revolt.  On October 20
>>most of the remaining Jewish prisoners were transferred to Sobibor,
>>where they were killed.  Another 25-30 prisoners remained in Treblinka
>>and were shot there a few days later.  In order to cover up the crime,
>>a farm-house was built on the site of the camp, trees were planted,
>>and a Ukrainian peasant was employed to guard the deserted place."
>>
>>Nizkor "Holocaust Educational" files   
>
>	And this accounts for only one building, not the five in the
>picture.  Probably just another mistake.  
>
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan  4 15:59:52 PST 1997
Article: 91010 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Poor "unbalanced" Jewish gunman
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 23:00:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <32e0e0bc.34554141@199.0.216.204>
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>On 4 Jan 1997 00:38:40 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote in
>alt.revisionism:
>
>>>   dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) writes:
>>>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>>  mgiwer@gte.net (Matt Giwer), posting as kavaliers@hong.kong (Sammy Li) writes:
>>>  >	Are there any Palestinians here excusing those actions?  Have
>>>  >you read Arafat or any of his cabinet excusing their actions?  
>>  
>>>  	No, but the Holocaust deniers are very silent about it - that is whom I
>>>  am criticising. Their silence shows that they are partisan, despite trying to
>>>  pretend to be impartial. But then you knew that.
>>
>>	Actually the criminal Giwer was not silent about it.  He thought it was agreat 
>>idea to gun downa 12-year-old girl.
>>
>>	--YFE
>
>	In fact the perjuring YFE is making it all up again.
>Interestig we now have the results of the autopsies from Dachau and
>they say that no traces of poison were found.  We all have to wonder
>just what YFE is really all about as it has no integrity or honesty.  

	Giwer, are you trying to draw more flys than necessary? What
"Dachau"? Lead him over to some other post.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan  5 01:45:53 PST 1997
Article: 91045 of alt.revisionism
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical Unsigned Editorial
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 15:45:17 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 75
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References: <32d56bf9.4663297@199.0.216.204>
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>
>	Generally the N.Y.Times carries three unsigned editorials in it's
>editorial section located on the same page as the 'letters to the
>editor'.
>
>	The Jewish community gets ready accommodation for both formats on
>this page, not to exclude the next page where the regular lopsided
>number of Jewish columnists and guest columns get their daily fare.
>
>	Today Jan. 4, 1997, unsigned editorial, number one at the top, as
>is the usual case,
>
>	           "The Disappearing Hebron Deal"
>
>	"Only a few days ago, Israelis and Palestinians seemed ready to
>sign an agreement on withdrawing most Israeli troops from Hebron, the
>last West Bank city ... Now the bargaining positions of the two sides
>have slipped so far apart that Dennis Ross, the American mediator, is
>thinking about coming home.
>
>	Wednesday's shooting of Palestinian civilians by a crazed Israeli
>soldier should have reminded everyone of the dangers of further delay.
>Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has courageously pressed
>ahead with plans for troop withdrawals in Hebron, despite opposition
>from a militant Jewish settler movement and a large minority of his
>Cabinet.
>
>	Yasir Arafat, sadly, has neither appreciated nor reciprocated
>this enlightened stand ...
>
>	Both leaders acted commendably after the shooting incident ...
>Mr.Arafat immediately made it clear to Palestinians that violent
>reprisals would not be tolerated.
>
>	That is quite a contrast to their behavior three months ago ,
>when Mr.Arafat's verbal incitements and Mr.Netanyahu's reckless
>opening of a new tourist tunnel ...
>
>	This time the two men seemed to appreciate that, like it or not,
>they share responsibility for keeping the peace and that outbursts of
>violence produce only losers. But Mr.Arafat quickly forgot that point
>and started acting as if a crime committed by an Israeli against
>Palestinians somehow strengthened his hand in the Hebron bargaining.
>
>	He demanded that a letter from Washington already agreed on now
>also spell out a timetable ... He also increased his pressure for a
>Palestinian police presence at Hebron's holiest site ...
>
>	As Wednesday's shooting incident underlines any Hebron agreement
>must assure the security of Palestinian civilians as well as Israeli
>settlers. But the events following the shooting, with Israeli soldiers
>immediately disarming and arresting the gunman, showed that the
>Israeli Army is capable of meeting the challenge.
>
>	Mr.Arafat's concern about furture Israeli troop withdrawals is
>also undrstandable. .... But Israel is already committed to by the
>Oslo peace agreements to pull back from these areas, and just last
>week Mr.Arafat appeared willing to settle for a letter outlining only
>the first phase of withdrawal. Mr. Netanyahu cannot go further without
>his cabinet's vetoing the agreement.
>
>	By delaying a Hebron agreement over these two issues, Mr.Arafat
>is postponing further steps toward peace and giving fanatics on both
>sides more time to do their worst." 	

	We can see here we get some interesting wording on the recent
shooting by the mad dog ethnocentric Israeli. If it had been the other
way around, we would see a different approach to the wording.

	One of the favorite words for these unsigned editorials, as with
most letters, is the use of the word "but" with the following
commentary wailing on the Palestinians.

	We can take note that the unsigned editorial ends up on a 'evil
Palestinian' note.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan  5 11:43:13 PST 1997
Article: 91127 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Typical News Report
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 14:16:59 GMT
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	             "Still Missing: Arafat's Nod"
                     N.Y.Times, Dec.5, 1997

           "The Palestinian Balks At Accord on Hebron"

	"It is three months now since the word went out from Jerusalem
and Washington that an agrement on an Israeli withdrawal from most of
Hebron was 'imminent'.
	That, paradoxically may be the reason it has taken so long.
Because for Yasir Arafat, a signal that the other side was ready to
deal was a signal to get to work.
	Within weeks of the October summit meeting in Washington, at
which the 'intensive and urgent new talks were begun on Hebron, the
last West Bank city under Israeli occupation, Prime Minister Benjamin
Netanyahu went from haughtily predicting a quick deal on his own terms
to the humiliating position of waiting day after day for a nod from
the Palestinians to seal the deal that a growing part of his
government regarded as a sellout.
	In the end, Mr.Netanyahu's terms for withdrawal were almost the
same as those proposed by the former Labor Government ..."

	[As we read on we don't want to overlook the fact the Jews
continued to defy U.N. resolutions by building more and more
"settlements", which the writer here will not come to include.]

	"Mr. Arafat's demand has put the entire Hebron agreements in
danger ...
	In failing to sign, Mr.Arafat was also defying the Americans. ...
	But then brinkmanship has always been a primary tool of
Mr.Arafat. ...
	What he does have is three decades of exploiting the slightest
advantage ...
	...
	...
	But Mr.Arafat was largely prepared to close his eyes to these
overtures ..."

	[And so on, until we get to the end.]

	"But perhaps more important, the past seven months have
demonstrated that Oslo process has its own inherent pace. Mr.Netanyahu
has learned the price of trying to stall it, and Mr.Arafat has learned
that the Israelis can only move so fast in their tortuous search for
consensus."



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan  5 11:43:13 PST 1997
Article: 91128 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical News Report
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 14:35:24 GMT
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>	
>	             "Still Missing: Arafat's Nod"
>                     N.Y.Times, Dec.5, 1997
>
>           "The Palestinian Balks At Accord on Hebron"
>

	Of course this is just a couple of days after the mad dog
ethnocentrically indocrinated insane idiot shot the Palestinians. Now
if it was the other way around we would see this writer, Serge
Schmemann crying up to the sky about that and it would be the reverse
twist for any Hebron deal. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan  5 11:43:14 PST 1997
Article: 91129 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary, Moran!
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 14:21:11 GMT
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>In 4 days (Jan 8), Tom Moran reaches the milestone of having gone a full
>year without explaining why he decided to slander me in this newsgroup,
>saying that I advocated jailing revisionists for stating their opinions.
>
>Well, he still hasn't bothered to back up his claim, so I just wanted
>to remind the slimy yellow-bellied lying worm that the offer is still open.
>
>--
>Keith Morrison
>lonewolf@nbnet.nb.ca
>http://www.dmmw.com/lonewolf/keithm.html

	A year ago? 

	What is it? Mr.Morrison has a beef with the other posts Moran has
put out since then but can't muster up any chutzpa to deny them? 
	 
	A year ago?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan  5 11:43:15 PST 1997
Article: 91131 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical 'letter to the editor'
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 14:42:28 GMT
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	Without the United States Israel would never have been in
existance. And since it has come to exist, it wouldn't have continued
on like it has without the United States playing the spoiling nanny to
the little brat in the stroller.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan  5 11:43:16 PST 1997
Article: 91133 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BEHOLD -  The Holocaust House of Cards
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 14:57:04 GMT
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	As the Holocaust story has it, the Germans had already used
carbon monoxide from the exhaust of various scavenged Soviet engines
to kill millions when they decided to change over to using the
fumigation product Zyklon B, that just happened to be around for that
purpose.

	The story has it that even though they had used carbon monoxide
on millions it was declared to be inefficient and rent with
extenuating problems. All this, as with the rest of the Holocaust
story, is derived from "eyewitness" story tellers.

	What appears to have happened to cause all this talk of
conversion from carbon monoxide to Zyklon B was they had this
eyewitness of very notable position in the workings of the Holocaust
facet of WW II. He gave a lot of statements about the initial
introduction of this Zyklon B into the existing killing system and how
it came to be used at various camps.

	He is the absolute star witness for the Holocaust story. He is
probably the most cited witness in all the Holocaust books and a good
part of the Holocaust story hangs on his testimony. He is one of the
many bottom cards to the proverbial 'house of cards', he is Rudolph
Ho'ss, one time commandant of Auschwitz-Birkenau, the camp at the
absolute center stage of the Holocaust fictionalized historical drama.

	As the Ho'ss story goes, he was away on a trip to return to
finding out his second in command had decided to try out some Zyklon
B, that happened to be laying around, to experimentally exterminate a
few hundred test people.

	From reading the various accounts of Ho'ss' testimony we get the
idea this is the first time the product Zyklon B was ever used to
exterminate people at any time or where in the Holocaust story. The
whole thing was done on the personal initiative of the second in
command and then with Ho'ss' participation without any accounting of
it all being a plan emanating from anywhere else.

	Now this person Rudolph Ho'ss had a whole lot to say, and he went
on to expand and expound on a number of things, including how he went
or sent someone to other camps to wise them up on the use of Zyklon B.
Since Ho'ss' testimony has his first accounting of Zyklon B being on a
certain date and the other camps having been in operation before this
date using carbon monoxide, it would require testimonies to account
for the switch over from carbon monoxide to the fumigant Zyklon B in
order to compensate and support Ho'ss' testimony.

	There are three basic themes in the testimonies as to why the
Germans chose to switch over from carbon monoxide to Zyklon B. One is
because there were the extenuating problems with the way people died,
another, that the carbon monoxide wasn't suitable for the job in
relation to a superior Zyklon B, and that there were technical
problems, basically with the engines used to supply the carbon
monoxide via exhaust emissions.

	Aside from problems arising from these three reasons for
conversion directly associated with the conversion tales there are two
more major problems that challenges the claims the Germans opted to
use Zyklon B over carbon monoxide. One would be the record of success
with CO as is attested to by the Holocaust alleged millions and the
other would be those testimonies that don't mention any problems at
all. All this would suggest that success was the norm and problems
were few. Too few to cause the Germans to opt for any Zyklon B and all
it's extra baggage of special requirements to use the product as told
of by the Holocaust story. 

	The following information in one swoop erases any figment of
truth of all three of the themes of why the Germans would have
switched from using the otherwise proven and effective carbon monoxide
to Zyklon B and thus erases all the testimonies that make up this
chapter of the Holocaust story.

=======================================================================


Center for Disease Control. Unintentional carbon monoxide poisoning
>from  indoor use of pressure washers - Iowa, January 1992 - 1993. JAMA,
270:2034-35, 1993

Case 1 : A 33 year old farm owner was using an 11 HP gasoline pressure
washer to clean a swine birthing area inside a barn. He was working
alone in this 3420 ft3 area with the door closed on this cold (-7 to
20?F) day. Based on the amount of work he had finished when he was
found dead, he had been overcome in about 30 minutes. His COHb was
75.6%.

	[Here we can see that a person was killed from exposure to CO
delivered from a small 11 HP engine into an unventilated area of 3420
cubic feet within 30 minutes.]

	[[ Symptoms: Dead ]]

Case 2 : A 12 year old boy was found unconscious near the door of a
4480 cubic foot swine birthing area that he had been cleaning with a
rented 11 HP gasoline pressure washer for about 30 minutes. Again, due
to cold temperatures, the washer had been placed inside the building
(about 5 feet from the door.)

He was taken to the hospital, where his COHb was determined to be 50%.
	
	[The conditions for this case was 4480 cubic feet, 11 Horse-power
engine, within 30 minutes.]

	[[Symptoms: Found unconscious near the door.]]


	[In "case no 3" we have the conditions, 4480 cubic feet, 4 HP
engine, intermittently used over a 7 hour period, 2 doors open, with a
exhaust fan, and yet enough to put her to the brink.]

Case 3 : A 35 year old farm owner was found by her husband to have
slurred speech, weakness and confusion. Over a 7 hour period, she had
been intermittently using a 4 HP gasoline pressure washer to clean a
calf raising area (4480 cubic feet). Outdoor temperatures were about
32?F, so she had set the washer inside the building about 5 feet from
an open doorway. The other 2 doors in the room were also open, and an
exhaust fan was running.
 
	[[ Slurred speech, weakness and confusion.]]


	[Check this one, 5148 cubic feet, 13 HP engine, in another room,
3 exhaust fans.]

Case 4 : A 32 year old farm owner was found by her husband to be
confused, dizzy, nauseated, weak and experiencing a headache and
muscle pain. She had been cleaning a 5148 cubic foot swine birthing
area with a 13 HP gasoline pressure washer intermittently for 6.5
hours. The washer was located in an adjacent room, and 3 exhaust fans
were operating in the room being cleaned. It was suspected that the
door leading to the adjacent room blew open sometime during the final
hour of work, allowing CO to enter the room being cleaned.

	[[Confused, dizzy, nauseated, weak and experiencing a headache
and muscle pain.]]


Case 5 : A 37 year old farm owner was found by his wife to be
extremely weak, dizzy and confused. He had been using a 9 HP gasoline
pressure washer to clean a 6480 cubic foot unventilated swine birthing
area for about 30 minutes. His symptoms appeared when he began to
refuel the washer, located inside the building. He crawled into the
house, where his wife found him and took him to the hospital. 

	[6480 cubic feet, 9 HP engine, unventilated, within 30 minutes.]

	[[ Extremely weak, dizzy and confused.]]

====================================================================

	The very first thing we should be able to deduce from this
information is that carbon monoxide is extremely dangerous stuff. Even
using a small engine in a enclosed area with ventilation fans and
doors open could result in death if no one would be around to find
someone who became unconscious or too out of it or weak to leave.

	To help get an idea of how little CO is required to put someone
to the brink and even to death we can consider the size of the chamber
>from  which the substance is created, the piston cylinder displacement.

	Barring the use of any HP/piston displacement ratio equations we
can do it in a lay fashion. Lets use a 150 HP engine with 6 cylinders.
We divide 6 into the 150 HP and get a figure of 25 HP per cylinder.
The largest engine mentioned in the report is 13 HP. So we can see
that these engines had a top displacement equal to 1/2 a cylinder
displacement of a 150 HP engine. A few cubic inches.
	The most critical knowledge would be to know how many parts per
million would be an average toxic fatal level.

	The conditions in the reports are that there were doors open,
engines in other rooms, exhaust fans and the small engines. The
conditions for Holocaust gas chambers are they were especially
constructed to be air tight and that big engines were used, "lorrie"
(truck), "tank" and "submarine". From my knowledge of tank engines,
while in the army, they were two Crysler, 440+ cubic inchers per tank.

	The average space volume of the report is 4,000 cubic feet, with
at least some kind of ventilation taking place. The Holocaust chambers
vary according to eyewitness testimony, but might be something on the
average of 1,000 cubic feet, or 4 times smaller than the spaces
mentioned in the report. Considering how the chambers are said to have
always been crammed full of people and having low ceilings, the volume
would have to be way less than 1,000 cubic feet.

	Thus we can easily see that these conditions for the Holocaust
story would have been way sufficient. A large engine, at least 25
times as big as the engines mentioned in the report, delivering their
exhaust into air tight chambers say 8 times as small, considering the
dense pack situation. In fact we can see there was considerable
'overkill' involved with the Holocaust accounts if we compare it to
the circumstances of the report. People giving testimony about
something they knew nothing about. 

	Now how would this report undo all the talk of converting to
Zyklon B because of the messy way people died from CO? Well it is
quite obvious that CO is a stealthy subtle agent that can over come
people with them pacify succumbing in a fashion that does not
correspond with the Holocaust accounts of how people died from it.
  
	As to the way people died, the Holocaust story has a number of
eyewitness descriptions. One of the testimonies that tells of victims
being gassed with CO has all the victims biting and/or tearing each
other's ears and noses off.
	Carbon monoxide poisoning is subtle and quiet as the cases in the
report indicate. Just recently a news report told of three youths who
were sitting in a running car in a garage being found dead. Quite
often it is the choice for suicide. 
	The carbon monoxide poisonings reported do not carry or support
anything like what Holocaust accounts claim.

	And how does this report challenge the theme that conversion from
CO to Zyklon B was in part caused by the repeated and chronic
breakdown of the engines used? Well number one, we can see from the
report that very small engines can deliver enough CO into large areas
to kill people and we have to wonder why the Germans would resort to
using truck, tank or submarine engines. We have to wonder what the
problems would have been, especially with engines not under the stress
of having to move a load. With the eyewitness engines we could see
that they would not have to be revved to high RPM. Just purring along
would be sufficient considering the size of the engine and the space
of the chambers.

    The failure of engines was just an inclusion to give more impetus
alibi for converting to Zyklon B to wipe up the muddy tracks left by
Ho'ss' testimony. As is the usual for Holocaust eyewitnesses, they
fabricated on things they knew nothing about.

	When going over it all, it points to all the tales about
converting from carbon monoxide to Zyklon B are evidently there for no
other reason than to be a cover and to compensate for Rudolph Ho'ss'
testimony. Thus whenever Rudolph Ho'ss said he went here or there, did
this or that, he created more and more problems for the story.  

	Ho'ss spoke and the Holocaust production works had to scramble to
give his words some other record in the story than just his words
alone.




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan  5 11:43:17 PST 1997
Article: 91147 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Babi Yar - ala Nora Levin
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 15:31:44 GMT
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	In her book "THE HOLOCAUST - The destruction of European Jewry
1933-1945" Nora Levin has her way of selling the 'facts' on the
alleged massacre at Babi Yar Ravine.

	"The Kiev Jews were made reprisal victims. Notices were posted
ordering Jews to report for 'resettlement'. They were marched in small
groups, with their 'resettlement' bundles, past the Jewish cemetery at
the outer limits of the city to the Babi Yar ravine coiling in sand
dunes and were executed. The killing rate, almost 35,000 in two days,
was unequaled even by the death factories of Treblinka and Auschwitz.

	On October 22, 1944, W.H.Lawrence of the N.Y.Times was shown over
the Babi Yar ravine by M.Aloshin, the Kiev city architect, who told
him that 'a German architect' had boasted to him of the slaughter.
After the war, Blobel admitted to killing only 16,000 Jews; to a
Gestapo expert on church affairs, Albert Hartel, he seemed more
propriety. While the two men were driving together near Kiev early in
1942, they approached the ravine. Hartel noticed small explosions
which threw up columns of earth. The March thaw was releasing gases
>from  thousands of bodies."




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan  5 11:43:17 PST 1997
Article: 91165 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Michael Kolnhofer
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 15:51:14 GMT
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>Does anyone have more information about Michael Kolnhofer,
>suspected of being a former member of the Waffen-SS, who
>reportedly shot at police and reporters in Kansas City?
>
>
>-Danny Keren.

	Just Mr.Keren's way of announcing the incident as if it should
have some bearing on the validity of the Holocaust story. 

	Perhaps we could look at it like the Ruby Ridge incident.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan  5 11:43:18 PST 1997
Article: 91169 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 970104: Israel and the UN
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 13:30:48 GMT
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	What this list doesn't show is the usual overwhelming votes that
brought the resolutions to record. Usually something like 100+ for the
condemnations and 2 against. We know who the 2 are.

	Too, the U.S. has down right vetoed a number of these
resolutions.

	This is the just one of the brush strokes in the clear picture
that the U.S. is not impartial.	 

	Then we see quite often Jewish writers and/or their lackeys
harping on Iraq for defying UN resolutions.

	A "wicked hypocrisy".	

>Here is a list of UN Resolutions, 1955-1992:
>
>*        Resolution 106:  ". . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid"
>*        Resolution 111:  ". . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that
>killed fifty-six people"
>*        Resolution 127:  ". . . 'recommends' Israel suspend its 'no-man's
>zone' in Jerusalem"
>*        Resolution 162:  ". . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions"
>*        Resolution 171:  ". . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel
>in its attack on Syria"
>*        Resolution 228:  ". . . 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu
>in the West Bank, then under Jordanian        control"
>*        Resolution 237:  ". . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967
>Palestinian refugees"
>*        Resolution 248:  ". . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack
>on Karameh in Jordan"
>*        Resolution 250:  ". . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding
>military parade in Jerusalem"
>*        Resolution 251:  ". . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade
>in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
>*        Resolution 252:  ". . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify
>Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
>*        Resolution 256:  ". . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as
>'flagrant violation""
>*        Resolution 259:  ". . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN
>mission to probe occupation"
>*        Resolution 262:  ". . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airp=
>ort"
>*        Resolution 265:  ". . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt
>in Jordan"
>*        Resolution 267:  ". . . 'censures' Israel for administrative acts
>to change the status of Jerusalem"
>*        Resolution 270:  ". . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on
>villages in southern Lebanon"
>*        Resolution 271:  ". . . 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN
>resolutions on Jerusalem"
>*        Resolution 279:  ". . . 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces
>from Lebanon"
>*        Resolution 280:  ". . . 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebano=
>n"
>*        Resolution 285:  ". . . 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal
>form Lebanon"
>*        Resolution 298:  ". . . 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status
>of Jerusalem"
>*        Resolution 313:  ". . . 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against
>Lebanon"
>*        Resolution 316:  ". . . 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on
>Lebanon"
>*        Resolution 317:  ". . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release
>Arabs abducted in Lebanon"
>*        Resolution 332:  ". . . 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks
>against Lebanon"
>*        Resolution 337:  ". . . 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's
>sovereignty"
>*        Resolution 347:  ". . . 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
>*        Resolution 425:  ". . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces
>from Lebanon"
>*        Resolution 427:  ". . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its
>withdrawal from Lebanon'
>*        Resolution 444:  ". . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation
>with UN peacekeeping forces"
>*        Resolution 446:  ". . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are
>a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on        Israel to abide by the
>=46ourth Geneva Convention"
>*        Resolution 450:  ". . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon=
>"
>*        Resolution 452:  ". . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building
>settlements in occupied territories"
>*        Resolution 465:  ". . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks
>all member states not to assist Israel's      settlements program"
>*        Resolution 467:  ". . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military
>intervention in Lebanon"
>*        Resolution 468:  ". . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal
>expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge  and to facilitate their
>return"
>*        Resolution 469:  ". . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to
>observe the council's order not to deport      Palestinians"
>*        Resolution 471:  ". . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's
>failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva     Convention"
>*        Resolution 476:  ". . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to
>Jerusalem are 'null and void'"
>*        Resolution 478:  ". . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms'
>for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'"
>*        Resolution 484:  ". . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel
>re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"
>*        Resolution 487:  ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack
>on Iraq's nuclear facility"
>*        Resolution 497:  ". . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of
>Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and     demands that Israel
>rescinds its decision forthwith"
>*        Resolution 498:  ". . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
>*        Resolution 501:  ". . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against
>Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
>*        Resolution 509:  ". . . 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces
>forthwith and unconditionally from   Lebanon"
>*        Resolution 515:  ". . . 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of
>Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought   in"
>*        Resolution 517:  ". . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN
>resolutions and demands that Israel   withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
>*        Resolution 518:  ". . . 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with
>UN forces in Lebanon"
>*        Resolution 520:  ". . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut=
>"
>*        Resolution 573:  ". . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing
>Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters
>*        Resolution 587:  ". . . 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel
>to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and       urges all parties to
>withdraw"
>*        Resolution 592:  ". . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of
>Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by      Israeli troops"
>*        Resolution 605:  ". . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and
>practices denying the human rights of        Palestinians
>*        Resolution 607:  ". . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport
>Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the  Fourth Geneva
>Convention
>*        Resolution 608:  ". . . 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied
>the United Nations and deported Palestinian    civilians"
>*        Resolution 636:  ". . . 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of
>Palestinian civilians
>*        Resolution 641:  ". . . 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation
>of Palestinians
>*        Resolution 672:  ". . . 'condemns' Israel for violence against
>Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple      Mount
>*        Resolution 673:  ". . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate
>with the United Nations
>*        Resolution 681:  ". . . 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the
>deportation of Palestinians
>*        Resolution 694:  ". . . 'deplores' Israel's deportation of
>Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and       immediate
>return
>*        Resolution 726:  ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation
>of Palestinians
>*        Resolution 799:  ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation
>of 413 Palestinians and calls for their       immediate return.
>
>(statistics taken from the above-mentioned title, pages 188 - 192)
>
>The following are the resolutions vetoed by the United States during the
>period of  September, 1972,  to May, 1990 to protect Israel from council
>criticism:
>
>*               . . . condemned Israel's attack against Southern against
>southern Lebanon and Syria. . . "
>*               . . . affirmed the rights of the Palestinian people to
>self-determination, statehood and equal protections. . . "
>*                . . . condemned Israel's air strikes and attacks in
>southern Lebanon and its murder of innocent civilians. . . "
>*                . . . called for self-determination of Palestinian people.
>. . "
>*                . . deplored Israel's altering of the status of Jerusalem,
>which is recognized as an international city by most        world nations
>and the United Nations . . . "
>*               . . . affirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian
>people . . . "
>*                . . . endorsed self-determination for the Palestinian
>people  . . . "
>*               . . . demanded Israel's withdrawal from the Golan Heights .
>. . "
>*               . . . condemned Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians in
>the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip and its refusal  to abide by the
>Geneva convention protocols of civilized nations. . . "
>*               . . . condemned an Israeli soldier who shot eleven Moslem
>worshippers at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple     Mount near Al-Aqsa Mosque in
>the Old City of Jerusalem. . . "
>*               . . . urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw
>from its invasion of Lebanon . . . "
>*                . . . urged sanctions against Israel if it did not
>withdraw from its invasion of Beirut. . . "
>*               . . . urged cutoff of economic aid to Israel if it refused
>to withdraw from its occupation of Lebanon. . . "
>*                . . . condemned continued Israeli settlements in occupied
>territories in the West Bank and Gaza Strip,         denouncing them as an
>obstacle to peace. . . "
>*               . . . deplores Israel's brutal massacre of Arabs in Lebanon
>and urges its withdrawal. . . "
>*                . . . condemned Israeli brutality in southern Lebanon and
>denounced the Israeli 'Iron Fist' policy of repression.      . . "
>*               . . . denounced Israel's violation of human rights in the
>occupied territories. . . "
>*                . . . deplored Israel's violence in southern Lebanon. . . "
>*               . . . deplored Israel's activities in occupied Arab East
>Jerusalem that threatened the sanctity of Muslim holy  sites. . . "
>*               . . . condemned Israel's hijacking of a Libyan passenger
>airplane. . . "
>*                . . . deplored Israel's attacks against Lebanon and its
>measures and practices against the civilian population of      Lebanon. . .
>"
>*               . . . called on Israel to abandon its policies against the
>Palestinian intifada that violated the rights of occupied    Palestinians,
>to abide by the Fourth Geneva Conventions, and to formalize a leading role
>for the United         Nations in future peace negotiations. . . "
>*               . . . urged Israel to accept back deported Palestinians,
>condemned Israel's shooting of civilians, called on Israel     to uphold
>the Fourth Geneva Convention, and called for a peace settlement under UN
>auspices. . . "
>*                . . . condemned Israel's . .  incursion into Lebanon. . . "
>*                . . . deplored Israel's . . . commando raids on Lebanon. .=
> . "
>*               . . . deplored Israel's repression of the Palestinian
>intifada and called on Israel to respect the human rights of      the
>Palestinians. . . "
>*               . . . deplored Israel's violation of the human rights of
>the Palestinians. . . "
>*               . . . demanded that Israel return property confiscated from
>Palestinians during a tax protest and allow a fact-finding mission to
>observe Israel's crackdown on the Palestinian intifada . . . "
>*               . . . called for a fact-finding mission on abuses against
>Palestinians in Israeli-occupied lands. . .  "
>
>(statistics taken from the above-mentioned title, pages 192 - 194)
>
>                                                        Ernst Z=FCndel
>
>Thought for the Day:
>
>"The 1996 total . . . in U.S. grants and loan guarantees (to Israel)
>amounts to $15,083,  013.67 per day, seven days a week, 365 days a year."
>
>(The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, October issue, page 44)
>
>________
>________
>________ The Zundelsite can be found at
>http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/
>
>
>------------ END ZUNDELGRAM MESSAGE ------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan  5 11:43:19 PST 1997
Article: 91172 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary, Moran!
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 13:20:27 GMT
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>In 4 days (Jan 8), Tom Moran reaches the milestone of having gone a full
>year without explaining why he decided to slander me in this newsgroup,
>saying that I advocated jailing revisionists for stating their opinions.
>
>Well, he still hasn't bothered to back up his claim, so I just wanted
>to remind the slimy yellow-bellied lying worm that the offer is still open.
>
>--
>Keith Morrison
>lonewolf@nbnet.nb.ca
>http://www.dmmw.com/lonewolf/keithm.html

	Post the exact slandering material and I'll give a look and
consideration.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan  5 15:00:54 PST 1997
Article: 91185 of alt.revisionism
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonial Fiction
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 13:49:32 GMT
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>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: >tom moran  wrote:
>: >: Treblinka chapter of the Holocaust story has it that the 40 acre camp
>: >: was built one year where the Germans exterminated up to 2,000,000 the
>
>One of the repeatedly quoted sources here is the book 
>"Dimension des Voelkermords" 
>edited by Wolfgang Benz
>(ISBN 3-423-04690-2)
>
>On page 495, the number of Jewish victims of Treblinka is
>estimated to be at least 974,000. There is a footnote to
>explain the discrepancy between this estimate and that
>given  by Wolfgang Benz in the introduction (on page 17,
>where the number is stated to be at least 900,000).
>
>d.A.

	And here the witness says "2,000,000". Just in the time he was
there. The testimony implys there was more.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan  5 15:00:55 PST 1997
Article: 91195 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Babi Yar - ala Nora Levin
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 20:33:46 GMT
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>Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, October 2 1941
>['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press,
>NY, 1988, p. 67]
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Einsatzgruppen C
>Standort Kiev
>
>In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
>Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941, Sonderkommando 4a
>executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev.

	Mr.Keren, you don't know how they came to have such an exact
figure that is accurate to the last digit do you?
>
>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan  5 20:26:31 PST 1997
Article: 91242 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Six Hundred Thousand Lives
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 01:42:13 GMT
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                        BELZEC

This camp, as shown in John C. Ball's book "Air Photo Evidence"
was located just down the road from the town of Belzec, and right in
the immediate area of other Polish residences and commercial and
industrial complexes.

	As is the case for every camp said to have been an
"extermination" center it is also surrounded by agricultural lands.

	The actual Belzec "camp" was situated on and at a hillside that
rose 120 feet above the rest of the general area, making whatever took
place there highly visible. To get an idea of the terrestrial layout,
just stand 1000 feet away from a 12 story building and you will an
idea of how visible it would have been.

	"Air Photo Evidence" includes photos of the site taken in 1940
and in 1944. The photo for 1940 shows the hillside to have been a
dense pack of trees as with adjacent lands on the elongated hill. 
The 1944 photo shows the section to have been clear cut by the time of
the photo.

	The accompanying plan commissioned by the Polish government for a
extermination report, evidently taken from eyewitness testimony, has
it the undressing rooms were located at the bottom of the hill, the
gas chambers near the center of the hill and the mass grave site near
the top of the hill.

	This is hilarious.

	What was the sequence of activity there? Were the people
exterminated before the trees were cut down? Or were they exterminated
while the trees were being cut down? Or were they exterminated after
the trees were cut down? 

	If they were exterminated before the main body of trees was cut
down we have to suspect, at least, that the area where the mass grave
sites are said to have been was cleared. Either way, it is obvious the
scene of burial would have been highly visible from a large area as it
was happening.

	We might suppose the Germans or whoever cut the trees down left
the stumps in place during the whole process, but those stumps where
the mass graves are alleged to have been would have been removed. This
would offer easy location of any mass graves and thus the opportunity
for a forensic study. Was there any? No.

	The summary of the story says is, that 600,000 people were
transported through the town of Belzec and any other towns on the
approach, to the site in the general area of civilian activity,
ushered off the trains, taken to the undressing rooms, stripped, then
marched up the hill, gassed and then the bodies carried further up the
hill to be buried. As is the usual for all extermination stories about
different camps, the bodies were first buried and then dug up, burned
and reburied, and in the case of Belzec, all this taking place 100
feet above on the side of a hill for whoever to see.

	The Summary of what the photo reality shows is, that in 1940
there was a stand of trees and by 1944 the trees had been cut down.
Nothing more, nothing less.        


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan  5 20:26:32 PST 1997
Article: 91255 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Babi Yar - ala Nora Levin
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 15:45:11 GMT
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>
>	In her book "THE HOLOCAUST - The destruction of European Jewry
>1933-1945" Nora Levin has her way of selling the 'facts' on the
>alleged massacre at Babi Yar Ravine.
>
>	"The Kiev Jews were made reprisal victims. Notices were posted
>ordering Jews to report for 'resettlement'. They were marched in small
>groups, with their 'resettlement' bundles, past the Jewish cemetery at
>the outer limits of the city to the Babi Yar ravine coiling in sand
>dunes and were executed. The killing rate, almost 35,000 in two days,
>was unequaled even by the death factories of Treblinka and Auschwitz.
>
>	On October 22, 1944, W.H.Lawrence of the N.Y.Times was shown over
>the Babi Yar ravine by M.Aloshin, the Kiev city architect, who told
>him that 'a German architect' had boasted to him of the slaughter.

	Ms.Levin didn't have anything else to say about the Times
reporter's visit. Simply that he had been "shown" with no comment on
what he saw, which we must assume was nothing or else Ms.Levin would
have included it. Evidently she would have the readers just think he
saw something. 

>After the war, Blobel admitted to killing only 16,000 Jews; to a
>Gestapo expert on church affairs, Albert Hartel, he seemed more
>propriety. While the two men were driving together near Kiev early in
>1942, they approached the ravine. Hartel noticed small explosions
>which threw up columns of earth. The March thaw was releasing gases
>from thousands of bodies."

	The most copy given by Ms.Levin for the Babi Yar tales from the
crypt was an emotional poem which takes up a whole page in her book,
thereby exceeding any other of her commentary on Babi Yar by five
times.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan  5 23:01:10 PST 1997
Article: 91273 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 13:40:15 GMT
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>Mike Curtis  wrote in article
><32d35fe9.7438281@news.inetport.com>...
>> dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
>> 
>> >A legitimate question is not answered by the above.
>> 
>> It is a silly question put in this manner:
>
>I beg your pardon, but I don't consider it a "silly question." If you are
>not interested in it, fine, but put-downs are hardly constructive.
>
>[snip]
>
>> 
>> He hits his mark much more solidly than my remarks to his question.
>> The concern of deniers is the Jewish aspect of the Holocaust. There
>> seems to be no concern about the other 6 million.
>
>Yes, this is what I was asking about. It is not my intent to defend
>"Nazism", but I always assumed "Holocaust denial" was really about "gross
>exaggeration" of these events. If someone were to say 12 million died, and
>a "denier" refuses and claims 500,000 were killed instead, I found it odd
>that the latter should be branded anti-Semitic. But from your answer, I
>think you are stating that "deniers" only question whether or not 6 million
>Jews were slaughtered. If this is indeed the case, I would be interested in
>hearing opposing views.
>
>[the rest snipped]

	Even though there may be a myriad of books out that carry such
titles as "The Destruction of European Jewry" I don't think there are
any that deal with the other alleged 6,000,000. In fact you see very
little if any talk about the other 6,000,000 in Holocaust promotional
literature. The Holocaust is 99.99 % a Jewish story. The Jews are the
ones that have collected the $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan  6 00:49:08 PST 1997
Article: 91287 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Babi Yar - ala Nora Levin
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 04:14:25 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 20
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>>Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, October 2 1941
>>['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press,
>>NY, 1988, p. 67]
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Einsatzgruppen C
>>Standort Kiev
>>
>>In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
>>Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941, Sonderkommando 4a
>>executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev.
>
>	Mr.Keren, you don't know how they came to have such an exact
>figure that is accurate to the last digit do you?

	Did they have everyone sign in.

>>-Danny Keren.
>>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan  6 02:18:27 PST 1997
Article: 91291 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SERVING TWO MASTERS
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 15:33:21 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 53
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>Several people in this group, most notably Messrs Giwer and Moran,
>have discussed the problem of a citizen with dual national loyalties.
>Their comments have usually been met with derision. This, of course,
>is not a new worry, and not without logic, and some evidence, to
>support it. 
>
>Yesterday, (2nd January 1997), under the 30 year rule, documents were
>released by the British government which shed light on this problem
>with regard to Jews in 1946.
>
>Sir Christopher Steele, (a senior Foreign Office official in Germany
>at that time), wrote to London on the subject of the conflicting
>loyalties of a Colonel Solomon who was on his staff.
>"It is a pity that a Jew was ever appointed.
>"Almost any honest Jew will admit that no Jew could be objective on
>Jewish affairs. And anyone who is not objective cannot advise His
>Majesty's Government reliably."

	Exactly. A Jew is subjected to so much ethnocentric indocrination
>from  day one of birth, that he can't think about anything else.

	Now we have a major majority of these people in high position in
Washington, over seeing and directing the 'Jeruselem Candidate',
William Clinton. 

	'Our enemy is your enemy', is what the prevailant direction is.

>Sir Christopher was, in a manner that was analytical rather than
>anti-Jewish, referring to the obvious conflict of interest of a Jew
>working for the British government whilst at the same time having an
>strong religious and emotional bias in favour of the creators of
>a Jewish nation. Sir Christopher continued:
>"I have nothing against Solomon personally, in fact by all accounts he
>is a likeable man who is trying to do a good job. The trouble is that
>he serves more than one master.
>"He recently put forward plans for the appointment of four Jewish
>liaison officers in Germany. All four were persons who had been
>unmitigated nuisances for a long time."

	This is it. One gets in and then recommends four more. A
coincidence?

>Another document released yesterday covers a Whitehall meeting headed
>by two senior MI5 officers - 'Tar' Robertson and a Mr Keller.
>The meeting was told: "playing on human sympathy of relief
>organisations in Europe, members of the Jewish Agency and the Zionists
>have succeeded in building up an organisation which leaves hardly a
>country in Europe untouched."

	Obsessive blind dedication.

>Fergus McClelland



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan  6 02:18:28 PST 1997
Article: 91305 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Babi Yar, a week later - babiyar.jpg (0/1)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 04:11:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 17
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>>	Someone had to bring up Babi Yar again.  Here it is only one
>>week after all the exhumation and cremation.  
>>
>>	What is getting interesting is that not one of these images, of
>>any of the sites of death camps or of famous massacres, shows any
>>signs of what is supposed to happen.  
>>
>>	If it were just Treblinka that showed no signs, that could be
>>considered an anomaly.  That none of them show any signs is certainly
>>indicative of the validity of the claims. 
> 
>	Good point Giwer. I think I'll steal that point and stick into
>the next repost of "Air Photo whatever". 

	Not that it needs any more points than "Air Photo Evidence"
already makes.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan  6 02:33:58 PST 1997
Article: 91309 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Babi Yar - ala Nora Levin
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 04:21:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 18
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>>Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, October 2 1941
>>['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press,
>>NY, 1988, p. 67]
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Einsatzgruppen C
>>Standort Kiev
>>
>>In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
>>Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941, Sonderkommando 4a
>>executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev.

	Say, you would'nt know why they would have kept such an accurate
count would you Mr.Keren?

>>-Danny Keren.
>>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan  6 06:52:26 PST 1997
Article: 91318 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical 'letter to the editor'
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 04:56:37 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 3
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	Moran has witnessed hundreds and hundreds of 'typical letters to
the editor' over the years.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan  6 06:52:27 PST 1997
Article: 91321 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Babi Yar - ala Nora Levin
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 04:20:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <32d77c28.14730170@199.0.216.204>
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>>Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, October 2 1941
>>['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press,
>>NY, 1988, p. 67]
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Einsatzgruppen C
>>Standort Kiev
>>
>>In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
>>Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941, Sonderkommando 4a
>>executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev.

	You don't suppose it could have been more like 33,770 or 33,772
do you? That is a pretty high number. Maybe they had one of those
clicker counters. You know, as they were brought up to get shot there
was a guy there clicking away. He could have missed one or two, or got
a spasm and clicked twice on some. Either way, they sure kept a pretty
good count.

>>-Danny Keren.
>>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan  6 06:52:28 PST 1997
Article: 91338 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical Unsigned Editorial
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 04:37:49 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 3
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	Moran has witnessed hundreds and hundreds of 'typical unsigned
editorials' over the years.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan  6 06:52:29 PST 1997
Article: 91340 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical News Report
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 04:39:33 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 3
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	Moran has witnessed hundreds and hundreds of 'typical news
reports' over the years.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan  6 06:52:29 PST 1997
Article: 91356 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 13:47:04 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 40
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References: <01bbf808$a38accb0$257213cc@server> <32cac7d2.3537818@news.inetport.com> <32d9eaa4.10656713@199.0.216.204> <01bbfa98$b933e6e0$2b7213cc@server>
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>tom moran  wrote in article
><32d9eaa4.10656713@199.0.216.204>...
>> >"Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:
>> >
>> >Interesting that this nonsense comes from the Judith Toth zone.
>
>What is the "Judith Toth zone"?
>
>[snip]
>
>> >>I'm not interested in the rights or wrongs of Nazism or Zionism, but
>rather
>> >>would like to discuss the almost taboo-like onus placed on discussions
>> >>concerning the events called the Holocaust.
>> >>
>> >
>> >There is no tabu on the discussion.
>> 
>> Summary: Curtis says there are no laws in nations against open
>> discussion on the Holocaust and Jews are not actively involved in
>> trying to have it made tabu.
>> 
>
>Do such laws exist? Where?

	Germany for one. I think France also. And there is a Jewish push
to have it made against the law in England. Maybe in Russia too. Here
in the U.S. the House of Representatives voted 410 to 0 to condemn
anyone who doubts all the current claims in the Holocaust story. It
wasn't on their inititive. And in the end, it is politically and
socially incorrect to speak of such things. Here in the U.S. you are a
"neo-Nazi", "Racist" "anti-Semitic" pig for denying any part of the
current Holocaust story. The same goes for Canada.

>> >Mike Curtis 
>> >E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com
>> >Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
>> 
>> 



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan  6 06:52:30 PST 1997
Article: 91365 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Clack, clack, clack, clack, clack
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 04:54:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Like that little end table curiosity with the ball bearings
hanging by strings, the ones where you pull one back and let it fall
and it hits the next one which goes on to hit the next etc., and then
they all get out of sync and start to slam into each other, that's
Holocaust eyewitness testimony for you.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan  6 06:52:31 PST 1997
Article: 91390 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical 'letter to the editor'
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 14:13:40 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 5
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	Over the years Moran has witnessed hundreds and hundreds of
'letters to the editors'.




From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan  6 11:26:45 PST 1997
Article: 91408 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BEHOLD - Forensic study laid to rest
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 15:25:01 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	One of the very few forensic studies the Holocaust promotional
network tries to palm off is the 

 "THE STUDY OF THE CYANIDE CONTENTS IN WALLS OF GAS CHAMBERS IN THE
FORMER CONCENTRATION CAMP AUSCHWITZ AND BIRKENAU".

	From the "Crakow Institute for Forensic Studies".

	The full report can be found in Nizkor files.

	The report itself is about 12 pages long in the Nizkor version,
with a good share of it reporting on studies done to see what
materials were best suited to take on and hold traces of cyanide
compounds. Since the report makes no effort at concluding anything on
these tests we can just focus on the studies they did from samples
taken directly from the building ruins said to have been used for mass
exterminations with the fumigation product Zyklon B whose lethal agent
was Hydrogen Cyanide (HCN).

	
	TABLE III. CONCENTRATIONS OF CYANIDE IONS IN SAMPLES TAKEN
           FROM THE CREMATORIUM CHAMBERS (OR THEIR RUINS)
           IN WHICH THE VICTIMS WERE GASSED.

A - Sample No;
B - Concentration of CN~ (ug/kg).

["B" "CN" means cyanide compounds. No HCN was found. HCN does not last
long in that form, it being highly prone to change into some other
cyanide compound.
	We should take note the measurements are founded on micrograms
per kilogram. There are 1000 grams per kilogram. A microgram is one
millionth of a gram. Thus we have 1,000,000 times 1000 = 1,000,000,000
micrograms per kilogram.]

Crematorium I
------------------------------------------------------------
A       17      17      18      19      20      21      22
------------------------------------------------------------
B       28      76      0       0       288     0       80
        28      80      0       0       292     0       80
        26      80      0       0       288     0       80
------------------------------------------------------------
Crematorium II
------------------------------------------------------------
A       25      26      27      28      29      30      31
------------------------------------------------------------
B       640     28      0       8       20      168     296
        592     28      0       8       16      156     288
        620     28      0       8       16      168     292
------------------------------------------------------------
Crematorium III
------------------------------------------------------------
A       32      33      34      35      36      37      38
------------------------------------------------------------
B       68      12      12      16      12      16      56
        68      8       12      12      8       16      52
        68      8       8       16      8       16      56
------------------------------------------------------------
Crematorium IV
------------------------------------------------------------
A       39      40      41      42      43      -       -
------------------------------------------------------------
B       40      36      500     trace   16
        44      32      496     0       12
        44      36      496     0       12      
------------------------------------------------------------
Crematorium V
------------------------------------------------------------
A       46      47      48      49      50      51      52
------------------------------------------------------------
B       244     36      92      12      116     56      0
        248     28      96      12      120     60      0
        232     32      96      12      116     60      0
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------

Notes: 

Crematorium I at Auschwitz - building preserved but
reconstructed several times Crematorium II-V[*] at Birkenau - ruins.
Only the ceiling of the chamber of Crematorium[*] II is in part fairly
well preserved.

	[Here we see there may be very little in the way of "ruins" to
Cremas III, IV and V. We should also take note of it being said Crema
I has been "reconstructed".]

	Anyway, we can just go on and deal with whatever they have to
offer on their own terms.

	The above table tells us how many micrograms they found in any
particular 1 billion micrograms of samples at each of whatever there
was to take samples from. We can be more than accomodating to their
position and use their highest value, which is 620 micrograms. This
would be 620 billionths, or .000000006 grams, by wieght, an
exceedingly small amount.

	No where in the report does it prove the incredibly minute traces
of cyanide compounds originated from any use of HCN in any gas chamber
mass exterminations, much less any of it originating from HCN from any
source.

	So from where, what and how did these traces show up? Aside from
cyanide compounds that are produced by natural forces including a
number of plants that produce HCN itself, we have all the man made
sources. Below is a extract from a report by the;  

Environmental Health Center
1019 19th Street, N.W., Suite 401
Washington, DC 20036
(202) 293-2270


Hydrogen cyanide is a colorless gas with a faint, bitter, almond-like
odor. It has been used in gas-chamber executions and as a war gas.
("Gas chamber executions" not to mean 'exterminations' and "war gas"
not to be mistaken for Holocaust gas.)

Hydrogen cyanide is used in producing adiponitrile for nylon, methyl
methacrylate, sodium cyanide, cyanuric chloride, chelating agents, and
miscellaneous other uses, including in the manufacture of insecticides
and rodenticides for fumigating enclosed spaces, ferrocyanides,
acrylates, lactic acid, pharmaceuticals, and specialty chemicals. 

	(Here we can see that HCN is used in a number of manufacturing
processes and products.)

The largest cyanide source in air results from vehicle exhaust. Other
sources include releases from certain chemical industries, industrial
and municipal waste burning, and the use of cyanide-containing
pesticides. The largest cyanide sources in water result from
discharges from some metal mining processes, organic chemical
industries, iron and steel works, and publicly owned waste water
treatment works.

	(Here we have a number of sources from which HCN can get into the
ecological system.)

Hydrogen cyanide is regulated by the Occupational Safety and Health
Administration (OSHA), which sets a short-term exposure level of 4.7
ppm. EPA"s Office of Drinking Water regulates cyanide, with a proposed
maximum contaminant level goal of 200?g/L.

Hydrogen cyanide is regulated under the Emergency Planning and
Community Right-to-Know Act; Comprehensive Environmental Response,
Compensation and Liability Act; National Primary Drinking Water
Regulations; and Resource Conservation and Recovery Act.

Releases of more than one pound of hydrogen cyanide into the air,
water, and land must be reported annually and entered into the TRI. In
1993, 3,056,164 pounds of hydrogen cyanide were released by 39
facilities; those releases ranked 57th of the TRI"s 336 chemicals and
chemical compounds. Of those releases, 53,123 pounds were fugitive or
nonpoint air emissions; 2,180,818 pounds were stack or point air
emissions; 396 pounds were surface water discharges; 821,815 pounds
were released by underground injection; and 12 pounds were released to
land.

	(HCN number 57 out of 336 other chemicals released.)

In 1993, 253 pounds of hydrogen cyanide were transferred to energy
recovery; 492 pounds were transferred to treatment; 281 pounds were
transferred to publicly owned treatment works; and 2,065 pounds were
transferred off-site.

Total 1993 releases of hydrogen cyanide represented a decrease from
1992 releases of 3,146,900 pounds; they represented increases from
1991, 2,224,575 pounds, and 1988 (baseline), 2,854,188 pounds.

According to EPA waste management information, in 1993 49,885 pounds
of hydrogen cyanide were recycled on-site; 12,036,599 pounds were used
for energy recovery on-site; 54 pounds were used for energy recovery
off-site; 22,841,234 pounds were treated on-site; 575 pounds were
treated off-site; and 3,056,727 pounds were released or disposed of.

The 10 states in which the largest amounts of hydrogen cyanide were
released in 1993 were LA, 1,356,233 pounds; TX, 1,325,520 pounds; CA,
93,241 pounds; TN, 64,640 pounds; SC, 62,500 pounds; UT, 52,978
pounds; WI, 44,192 pounds; OH, 39,412 pounds; AL, 13,426 pounds; and
NH, 1,841 pounds.

The 10 facilities which released the largest amounts of hydrogen
cyanide in 1993 were Cabot Corp. Canal Plant, Franklin, LA, 763,550
pounds; Cabot Corp. Ville Platte Plant, Ville Platte, LA, 589,750
pounds; DuPont Sabine River Works, Orange, TX, 571,565 pounds; Rohm &
Haas Texas, Inc., Deer Park, TX, 203,203 pounds; Monsanto Co., Alvin,
TX, 180,700; Cabot Corp. Pampa Plant, Pampa, TX, 152,586 pounds;
DuPont Victoria Plant, Victoria, TX, 134,019 pounds; Grafil Inc.,
Sacramento, CA, 62,741 pounds; Hercules Inc. Hamso, Magna, UT, 52,978
pounds; and BP Chemicals Inc. Green Lake, Port Lavaca, TX, 48,200
pounds.
=======================================================================

	This report does not mention any releases from other nations or
other sources such as coke production facilities or that which may be
manufactured in certain plants to be released when the plant dies.
Inspite of the grand amounts of HCN released by the general sources
above, we can take extra notice that the environmental report cites
vehicle emissions as the greatest contributor to cyanide releases and
we all know to what extent vehicles operate and have operated in the
world over the years.

	We can not over look the fact that the Cracow Report was carried
out some 45 years after the Holocaust non-facts, and that plenty of
HCN found it's way into the atmosphere which would be carried down to
the earth during any precipitations like rain storms and snow, not to
mention random wind born adherence to things on the ground. 

	The Cracow Report mentions that 100 feet of rain had fallen since
the time the alleged acts were committed and the time the study was
done. We have to recognize this rain fall to be 'acid rain', meaning
the stuff that is loaded with humanities releases, including any of
the vast amounts of cyanide compounds mentioned in the environmental
report.

	Thus we have this Cracow Report giving figures for teeny weeny
(.00000006 grams per kilogram) little traces of cyanide compounds
found at the tested areas, and it can not be shown that any of the
traces originated from any gas chambers whereas it can be highly
suggested any traces found originated from the deposition of cyanide
compounds originating from the other sources.    

	In any case at all, the Cracow Study is totally useless as
confirming evidence for the truth of the Holocaust story.    

	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan  6 11:26:46 PST 1997
Article: 91411 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary, Moran!
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 14:40:24 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <32d50c32.1554652@199.0.216.204>
References: <32CF0BEE.31D2@nbnet.nb.ca> <32d2aa62.1434915@199.0.216.204> <32D014FA.6D9C@nbnet.nb.ca>
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>tom moran wrote:

Morrison:
>> >In 4 days (Jan 8), Tom Moran reaches the milestone of having gone a full
>> >year without explaining why he decided to slander me in this newsgroup,
>> >saying that I advocated jailing revisionists for stating their opinions.


Moran:
>>         Post the exact slandering material and I'll give a look and
>> consideration.
>
>===================================================================================

>From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan  7 10:03:17 PST 1996
>From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>>In article <30ED4928.128D@niven.imsweb.net> Bud  writes:

Bud:
>>>do you think it's right for holocaust deniers to be sentenced to prison 
>>>terms for their views?

Morrison:
>>Not on your life.

Moran:
>        This is what Morrison puts out here, but if we should go by his posts
>and responses we could the idea that he's not saying what he really
>thinks. Sort of like the ADL saying they are the "staunchest
>supporters of free speech".

Again Morrison's anniversary accusation:

"In 4 days (Jan 8), Tom Moran reaches the milestone of having gone a
full year without explaining why he decided to slander me in this
newsgroup, saying that I advocated jailing revisionists for stating
their opinions."


Moran:

	Okay, we can see Mr.Morrison has used the word "advocated". No
where in Moran's statement of doubting Mr.Morrison does it say
anything even close to Moran saying anything about "advocating" or
other similar words or wording meaning the same.

	Moran expressed his doubts as to the sincerity of Mr.Morrison's
words. Moran still doubts.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan  6 11:26:47 PST 1997
Article: 91426 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical Unsigned Editorial
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 15:20:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <32dc17b3.4499510@199.0.216.204>
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>In article <32d56bf9.4663297@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>      Wednesday's shooting of Palestinian civilians by a *crazed* Israeli
>> soldier should have reminded everyone of the dangers of further delay.
>> Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has *courageously* pressed
>> ahead with plans for troop withdrawals in Hebron, despite opposition
>> from a militant Jewish settler movement and a large minority of his
>> Cabinet.
>
>==============================================================================
>
>The reference to a "crazed" Israeli gunman is a recurring motif in reports
>of such incidents. The same will likely be said of the next such episode;
>and the one after that. 
>
>The same was said of Yigal Amir, that and the fact he was described as
>having acted "alone," even though Amir's brother was very soon afterwards
>likewise implicated in the plot to kill Yitzhak Rabin.
>
>Calling Netanyahu "courageous" is, I think, no exaggeration. Not after
>what was done to Yitzhak Rabin. Certainly the Jewish settler movement will
>regard the Hebron deal--should it follow the original Oslo
>prescription--as a betrayal. Netanyahu may end up being hated even more
>than the Labor Party leader, Rabin, ever was. 
>
>Betrayal by one of your "own" is always a far, far more bitter and
>unbearable experience.

	This would be a legitimate consideration for viewing the
U.S.Congress and Clinton.

>===============================================================================
>
>-- 
>******************************************************************
>What sort of truth is it that needs protection?  - Auberon Waugh  *
>                                                                  *
>The London Daily Telegraph, May 9, 1992                           *
>*******************************************************************



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan  6 16:24:22 PST 1997
Article: 91452 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoess vs. 'rblackmore' (Re: The Joys of Yiddish)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 14:49:26 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 29
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>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
># rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>## dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) writes:
>
>### Ah, so you admit being an antisemite?
>
>## COMMENT:  I admit no such thing, because I am not.--rb
>
># Where have I heard this before.
># "I want to emphasize here that I never personally
># hated the Jews."
>#
>#        Rudolph Hoess (1947)
>
>You know, I'm going to say something which may look
>like a really disgusting flame, or a joke of sorts;
>but I really believe that it is very probable that
>"rblackmore" hates Jews far more than Hoess may have
>hated Jews.
>
>It seems outrageous, but think about it, and it makes
>a lot of sense.

	What is it that gives you the idea he is "anti-Semitic"? Is it
that he tells lies about Jews or are you offended at the truth? 

>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan  6 18:46:04 PST 1997
Article: 91485 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimony of Rudolf Reder
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 01:42:20 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 61
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                           BELZEC

This camp, as shown in John C. Ball's book "Air Photo Evidence"
was located just down the road from the town of Belzec, and right in
the immediate area of other Polish residences and commercial and
industrial complexes.

	As is the case for every camp said to have been an
"extermination" center it is also surrounded by agricultural lands.

	The actual Belzec "camp" was situated on and at a hillside that
rose 120 feet above the rest of the general area, making whatever took
place there highly visible. To get an idea of the terrestrial layout,
just stand 1000 feet away from a 12 story building and you will an
idea of how visible it would have been.

	"Air Photo Evidence" includes photos of the site taken in 1940
and in 1944. The photo for 1940 shows the hillside to have been a
dense pack of trees as with adjacent lands on the elongated hill. 
The 1944 photo shows the section to have been clear cut by the time of
the photo.

	The accompanying plan commissioned by the Polish government for a
extermination report, evidently taken from eyewitness testimony, has
it the undressing rooms were located at the bottom of the hill, the
gas chambers near the center of the hill and the mass grave site near
the top of the hill.

	This is hilarious.

	What was the sequence of activity there? Were the people
exterminated before the trees were cut down? Or were they exterminated
while the trees were being cut down? Or were they exterminated after
the trees were cut down? 

	If they were exterminated before the main body of trees was cut
down we have to suspect, at least, that the area where the mass grave
sites are said to have been was cleared. Either way, it is obvious the
scene of burial would have been highly visible from a large area as it
was happening.

	We might suppose the Germans or whoever cut the trees down left
the stumps in place during the whole process, but those stumps where
the mass graves are alleged to have been would have been removed. This
would offer easy location of any mass graves and thus the opportunity
for a forensic study. Was there any? No.

	The summary of the story says is, that 600,000 people were
transported through the town of Belzec and any other towns on the
approach, to the site in the general area of civilian activity,
ushered off the trains, taken to the undressing rooms, stripped, then
marched up the hill, gassed and then the bodies carried further up the
hill to be buried. As is the usual for all extermination stories about
different camps, the bodies were first buried and then dug up, burned
and reburied, and in the case of Belzec, all this taking place 100
feet above on the side of a hill for whoever to see.

	The Summary of what the photo reality shows is, that in 1940
there was a stand of trees and by 1944 the trees had been cut down.
Nothing more, nothing less.        


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan  6 18:46:05 PST 1997
Article: 91486 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimony of Wihelm Cornides
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 01:42:25 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <32d4b574.11912079@199.0.216.204>
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                             BELZEC

This camp, as shown in John C. Ball's book "Air Photo Evidence"
was located just down the road from the town of Belzec, and right in
the immediate area of other Polish residences and commercial and
industrial complexes.

	As is the case for every camp said to have been an
"extermination" center it is also surrounded by agricultural lands.

	The actual Belzec "camp" was situated on and at a hillside that
rose 120 feet above the rest of the general area, making whatever took
place there highly visible. To get an idea of the terrestrial layout,
just stand 1000 feet away from a 12 story building and you will an
idea of how visible it would have been.

	"Air Photo Evidence" includes photos of the site taken in 1940
and in 1944. The photo for 1940 shows the hillside to have been a
dense pack of trees as with adjacent lands on the elongated hill. 
The 1944 photo shows the section to have been clear cut by the time of
the photo.

	The accompanying plan commissioned by the Polish government for a
extermination report, evidently taken from eyewitness testimony, has
it the undressing rooms were located at the bottom of the hill, the
gas chambers near the center of the hill and the mass grave site near
the top of the hill.

	This is hilarious.

	What was the sequence of activity there? Were the people
exterminated before the trees were cut down? Or were they exterminated
while the trees were being cut down? Or were they exterminated after
the trees were cut down? 

	If they were exterminated before the main body of trees was cut
down we have to suspect, at least, that the area where the mass grave
sites are said to have been was cleared. Either way, it is obvious the
scene of burial would have been highly visible from a large area as it
was happening.

	We might suppose the Germans or whoever cut the trees down left
the stumps in place during the whole process, but those stumps where
the mass graves are alleged to have been would have been removed. This
would offer easy location of any mass graves and thus the opportunity
for a forensic study. Was there any? No.

	The summary of the story says is, that 600,000 people were
transported through the town of Belzec and any other towns on the
approach, to the site in the general area of civilian activity,
ushered off the trains, taken to the undressing rooms, stripped, then
marched up the hill, gassed and then the bodies carried further up the
hill to be buried. As is the usual for all extermination stories about
different camps, the bodies were first buried and then dug up, burned
and reburied, and in the case of Belzec, all this taking place 100
feet above on the side of a hill for whoever to see.

	The Summary of what the photo reality shows is, that in 1940
there was a stand of trees and by 1944 the trees had been cut down.
Nothing more, nothing less.        


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan  7 08:36:59 PST 1997
Article: 91542 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical 'letter to the editor'
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 17:04:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <32df3032.10770408@199.0.216.204>
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>Mark Van Alstine wrote:
>
>>> United States aid to Israel is a recent phenomenon. 
>>
>>A "recent phenomenon?" The Moran(tm) should get a clue (for once). The
>>U.S. State Department _officially_ announced arms sales to Isreal as far
>>back as 1962
>
>and
>
>>> >       United States aid to Israel is a recent phenomenon. Israel does
>>> >not exist because of United States policy nut despite it.
>>> 
>>>         Thoroughly idiotic insult to any reader. 
>>
>>Now the Moran(tm) is attacking his own posts? Okaaaay....
>
>Someone needs a clue all right, and that someone is Mark.


No need to spend too much time on Mr.VanAlstine here, David. I saw his
distortion too. So what. He's an idiot.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan  7 08:36:59 PST 1997
Article: 91543 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical Unsigned Editorial
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 17:10:14 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <32e030b7.10903271@199.0.216.204>
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>From Hilary:
>
>>Perhaps you would also care to explain the
>>'evil Palestinian note' as in:
>>
>>> We can take note that the unsigned editorial ends up on a 'evil
>>>Palestinian' note.
>>
>>that Moran seems to have found in:
>>
>>>> By delaying a Hebron agreement over these two issues, Mr.Arafat
>>>>is postponing further steps toward peace and giving fanatics on both
>>>>sides more time to do their worst." 
>
>You're kidding, right?  Or maybe you're not.  Whatever.

	No need to spend any time on Hilary here, David. She's an idiot.
The documented facts show the Jews have been the totally intransient
ones. They just keep on building and building, shooting and shooting,
bombing and bombing, all with the stuff the lackey U.S. Congress gives
them. It's the record. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan  7 08:37:00 PST 1997
Article: 91601 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical Nature of Holocaust Accounts
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 14:12:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <32d559c3.474991@199.0.216.204>
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Jamie McCarthy:
>Research.  Every other source, plus the physical evidence, indicates that
>Treblinka was flattened years before the Russians arrived.

	Jamie specializes in making rash exaggerated blurts like the one
here where he says Treblinka was flattened "years" before the Russians
took over.

	This is the kind of thing children get into. This is why it can
be determined that Jamie has the mind of a child.

	It is comforting to think that Jamie is the only kind of
mentality that those who control Nizkor can get to represent their
childish program, which is what Jamie does. He blurts out "years". 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan  7 13:08:36 PST 1997
Article: 91635 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 970104: Israel and the UN
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 14:12:16 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 29
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>In "Deliberate Deceptions:  Facing the Facts About US-Israeli Relationship"
>(Lawrence Hill Books, 1995) author Paul Findley makes the point that
>Israel, with the collusion of the power elite on our continent, has been
>successful over the decades in keeping the United Nations on the sidelines
>in efforts to find a solution to the Middle East problem and to create real
>peace:
>
>Here is a list of UN Resolutions, 1955-1992:
>
>*        Resolution 106:  ". . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid"
>*        Resolution 111:  ". . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that
>killed fifty-six people"
>*        Resolution 127:  ". . . 'recommends' Israel suspend its 'no-man's
>zone' in Jerusalem"
>*        Resolution 162:  ". . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions"
 etc.


	To the Jewish way of thinking this list is something to be proud
of. To the Jewish way of thinking this is attainment.

	Another way of looking at it from the outside looking in is that
it is more like a 'rap sheet'. A history of crap.	

	Of course it is the weakness of the whole body of the United
States that has perpetuated the whole thing. 

	Israel's history is the United States history. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan  7 13:08:36 PST 1997
Article: 91638 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimony of Wihelm Cornides
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 13:52:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 13
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>
>                             BELZEC
>
>This camp, as shown in John C. Ball's book "Air Photo Evidence"
>was located just down the road from the town of Belzec, and right in
>the immediate area of other Polish residences and commercial and
>industrial complexes.

	The photos in this book of various camps, including Belzec, are
ones you will not see used in the relentless frenzied Holocaust
promotional campaign.

		


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan  7 13:08:37 PST 1997
Article: 91642 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: control,soc.culture.europe,alt.revisionism,soc.history
Subject: Re: Wagner
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 15:01:01 GMT
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>> > I am a lover of real music and have been listening to Wagner's
>> > "Parsifal" amongst many other works, for many years. About ten
>> > years ago, a young American rabbi came on British television
>> > and claimed that this music drama is "Clearly anti-Semitic"
>> > and should be banned.  Since them I have come across other
>> > Jews reiterating this, though I cannot remember any names;
>> > it seemed a view held by quite a few Jews.
>> > 
>> > There was no explanation by the rabbi or any of the others
>> > of this accusation.
>> 
>> Perhaps because Wagner, the man, _was_ a rabid anti-Semite? 
>
>So was Franz Liszt, but they aren't out to ban Liszt, yet.
>
>-- 
>Cheers!

	It is within the common range of Jewish thinking and practice to
try and undo any goyim genius.

	It is the record of the Jewish dossiers on their enemies that
many geniuses are on their hate list.

	Rabbis talking about banning the music of their enemies is
something you won't see any Catholic priest, Ministers of any
Christian faith, Gurus, Shamans, Imims, Monks of any sort resorting
to. It is a special thing for the Jewish way of thinking, led by their
rabbis. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan  7 13:08:38 PST 1997
Article: 91645 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 15:13:30 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
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>: On 1 Jan 97 17:24:12 GMT, "Anthony Sabatini" 
>: wrote in alt.revisionism:
>
>: >Is disbelief in some event a "bad thing"? If so, what can be said about
>: >those who do not believe in Christ? Shouldn't they be considered "evil
>: >anti-Christians"?
>
>Disbelief in some event is not, in and of itself, a "bad thing."  
>Since, however, the Holocaust is such a thoroughly documented event,
>it's necessary to ask why anyone would disbelieve in it.  Antisemitism
>seems the most likely explanation, although insanity, ignorance and 
>stupidity are also possibilities.
>
>Coincidentally, most of the deniers who hit this list eventually
>out themselves as antisemites.
>
>Bill

	Mr.Anderson, the documented things among the "documented event"
you speak of are a number of claims that are not held to be true that
were once held to be true. So I take it you are saying all the things
that are currently said to be true are not subject to question. Is
that right?  


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan  7 16:12:32 PST 1997
Article: 91666 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: For the Revisionazis, we have bad news and bad news
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 16:36:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>I've just been looking over the new ADL "Anti-Bias/Diversity Catalog for 
>Classroom & Community", and I have bad news and bad news for you revisionazis  
>out there.
>
>The bad news is that you are mentioned, and there is a section on Holocaust  
>Denial.  The bad news is that it's only half a page, and contains only four 
>items -- looks like the ADL doesn't think you're very important at all.

	Is this the same ADL that was caught having dossiers on just
about every ethnic organization in the U.S. including Black groups and
even unto Native Americans? Is this the same ADL that was caught with
ill gotten police records? Is this the same ADL that had to settle in
a suit against them for the activity?

	Okay, Mr.Rosenberg, tell how it was all a justifiable exception. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Jan  7 17:39:11 PST 1997
Article: 91674 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clack, clack, clack, clack, clack
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 15:01:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 21
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>Gord McFee  writes:
>>tom moran wrote:
>>> 
>>>         Like that little end table curiosity with the ball bearings
>>> hanging by strings, the ones where you pull one back and let it fall
>>> and it hits the next one which goes on to hit the next etc., and then
>>> they all get out of sync and start to slam into each other, that's
>>> Holocaust eyewitness testimony for you.
>>
>>You've really lost it, zeyde.  Seek help soon.
========================================================================


>That sound you hear is the ticking of the time bomb in the moran's head...
>you don't want to be around when he blows.
>
>-rich

	Moran invites Mr.Graves over to posts like "Behold - Forensic
study laid to rest" and "Behold - The Holocaust House of Cards". Be
waiting for you Mr.Graves. Tick, tick, tick.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  8 05:43:53 PST 1997
Article: 91735 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B / Carbon monoxide comparison
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 14:11:49 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 46
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>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:
>
>Two key points:

	I agree, these are two "key" points.

>1) A scientific paper proves that it is very easy to tune a diesel
>   so that its exhaust contains hardly any oxygen, and up to 6
>   percent CO. This is much higher than the lethal concentration.
>
>("The Significance of Diesel-Exhaust-Gas Analysis", by
>J.C. Holtz and M.A. Elliot, Transactions of the ASME,
>Vol. 63, 1941, p. 97-105).

	We could take the word of it saying the "lethal concentration" is
6%. You wouldn't know what percentage of CO is produced by a gasoline
engine is, would you Mr.Keren? I mean if it is higher, we are going to
have to ask some questions about why the Germans wouldn't have used
gasoline engines instead, which I think they did somewhere, sometime,
as the story has it. 


>2) Another scientific paper proves that when animals were exposed
>   to the exhaust of a tiny diesel engine (6 BHP) in a closed
>   chamber, they died.
> 
>   ("The Toxicity of Fumes from a Diesel Engine Under Four Different
>   Running Conditions", by Pattle et al., British Journal of 
>   Industrial Medicine, 1957, Vol 14, p.  47-55).

	You wouldn't know how long they were subjected to the gas would
you Mr.Keren? And the size of the chamber? Two critical factors.

>   Lastly, CO is not the only factor in causing death; lack of 
>   oxygen in the exhaust is another one, and so are other poisonous
>   gases present in the exhaust, such as NO2.

	This I have seen before, among more reliable non-Holocaust
sources. This NO2 and other dangerous compounds. This would be an
additional bonus thought for using CO over any Zyklon B pellets. The
multi whammy.

>
>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  8 06:12:32 PST 1997
Article: 91744 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A little bit of $wi$$ offered
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 13:35:50 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 56
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	   "Swiss Offer a Fund for Victims of Holocaust"
                      N.Y.Times, Jan.8, 1997

	"Seeking to diffuse the crisis over its financial dealings during
the Nazi era, the Swiss Government offered today to use money from
unclaimed bank accounts dating to WW II to set up a fund 'in favor of
Holocaust victims and their dependents'.

	But the offered failed to deflect a tide of Jewish anger over
recent remarks by a high Swiss official who called Jewish demands for
compensation 'extortion and blackmail'.

	Jewish groups demanded an apology for the remarks of by the
official, Economics Minister Jean-Pascal Delamuraz ... Last week said
he had been 'misunderstood' and was sorry for any grief he might have
caused.

	The public confrontation between Switzerland and Jewish groups in
the U.S. and Israel ...

	But the conflict has assumed new overtones, with talk among
Jewish groups of an organized boycott of Swiss banks ...

	Switzerland's banks -- and their reputations for security and
confidentiality -- are central to its well being. The clamor,
particularly from the United States, for disclosure ...

	After a 90 minutes of phone conversation, the seven ministers in
Switzerland's Cabinet issued a statement today saying the 40 million
francs, or $29.5 million, discovered so far in dormant accounts should
be put to proper use.

	The Cabinet said it was 'ready to immediately take up discussions
... regarding the fund ...

	A Government spokesman, Achille Casanova, told reporters that
there was no apology for Mr.Delaamuraz's contentious remarks because
they were misunderstood.

	The developments in Bern, the Swiss capital, drew and angry
response from Avraham Burg, the chairman of the Jewish Agency in
Jerusalem ...
	
	'The Swiss are again playing with words, attacking marginal
issues and ignoring the central issues' and aid quoted Mr.Burg as
saying. 'They're trying to buy us with money that's not theirs'.

	After a meeting with Swiss officials in Jerusalem, Mr.Burg said a
decision would be reached within four weeks on whether to urge a
boycott with Swiss banks ..."

	The article goes on to say the Swiss do not want to give out any
money as it could be construed as an admission of guilt that they
profited from the Holocaust. The Swiss said not all of the money could
be traced to Holocaust victims. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  8 19:03:16 PST 1997
Article: 91852 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Friedrich Berg & Diesel Exhaust
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 02:01:40 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 13
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>You ought to try reading it, zeyde, before you comment.  Berg is one of
>your "revisionist" "scholars".

	Zeyde doesn't fall all over the place when he hears or sees the
word "scholar". Zeyde has learned from Socrates that the word scholar
is but a word and would be prone to much discussion as to its ultimate
authority. 

>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  8 20:20:46 PST 1997
Article: 91868 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical Nature of Holocaust Accounts
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 13:05:25 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <32cfa5e5.285939@199.0.216.204>
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
># Jamie, how do you know which account is correct and which one is
># the "whopper"?
>
>Research.  Every other source, plus the physical evidence, indicates that
>Treblinka was flattened years before the Russians arrived.

	"Years" you say? How many "years" would that be, Jamie?

>If you'd like citations, please consult the other files in Nizkor's
>Treblinka directory, plus our bibliographies.
>
># I don't have to cite your "annotation" (Nizkor wording).
>
>No, you don't have to.  Not if your aim is to present just precisely
>that information which will confuse, rather than educate.

	I'm not the one that puts out black but not white and white but
not black at the same time Jamie. You are. 

># In short, Jamie, your "annotation" or whatever, means nothing. It
># is just another addition to the Nizkor cesspool files, with the
># "annotation" itself adding to the reek.  
>
>Rhetoric.
>
>#         As to your way of putting the "whopper" material, "I don't know
># what his sources were, but he should have researched more carefully
># before taking a whopper like that into print" - your an idiot, and on
># top of all that your a corrupt idiot.
># 
>#         Random House Dictionary:
># 
># "idiot, 1. an utterly foolish person. 2. a person hopelessly
># deficient."  
># 
>#         A person who is doomed to be incapable of realizing he's an
># idiot.
>
>I see.  If such is the case, why do you bother telling me so?

	The first real piece of legitimate logic you've ever put out. 
Anyway, I'm glad to see you working for Nizkor Synagogue. Your in the
right place, Jamie. 

>Posted/emailed.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  8 20:20:47 PST 1997
Article: 91869 of alt.revisionism
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B / Carbon monoxide comparison
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 13:12:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 147
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Holocaust gas chambers were basically 12 X 12 X 7
># feet, about 1000 cubic feet,
>
>The large ones in Birkenau (in Kremas II and III), which
>are the ones we're talking about,

	"...the ones we're talking about ..."? Really? Where does he get
that idea? No where in this post does it say anything about Auschwitz,
or "Cremas II and III", but instead actually discusses the existing
stories of CO gassings. It is only Mr.Keren's way of avoiding what the
post addresses. It doesn't matter anyway, we can just go on and toy
around with what he has opted to focus on.

> were 30 X 7 X 2 meters,
>that is, about 100 X 23 X 7 feet, or about 16,000 cubic feet.
>Well, Moran, you've only erred by a factor of 16 this time.
>You're still better than other "revisionist scholars", as
>Giwer, Stele, etc.

>The question is, how long would it take for the
>exhaust of one single engine to fill this volume
>with a high enough ratio of CO to kill? Now, I guess
>it would have worked, eventually. I agree that, had
>Hoess decided to use engine exhaust to kill the victims,
>it would have, eventually, worked.

	Lets use what information we have from the report and what
Mr.Keren has supplied.

	The average size of the areas by volume were about 4500 cubic
feet.

	The average size of the engines that were responsible for the CO
poisoning is 9.25 HP.

	The average conditions for the cases would be at least one
exhaust fan and a open door. Only one case was unventilated in some
way, which was the fatality.  

	The average time for people to succumb to the CO fumes seems to
be around 30 minutes. 

	So now here we have Mr.Keren saying he wants to know what it
would take to deliver enough gas to a toxic level in a volume of
16,000 cubic feet in Cremas II and III. The Holocaust conditions would
be a chamber intentionally designed to be air tight (hermetically
sealed). The Holocaust engines would be something that would be
suitable to drive a "truck", "tank" or even a "submarine".

	Being more than fair, we can say 250 HP.

	Now if a 9 HP engine can deliver enough gas into an area of 4500
cubic feet in 30 minutes to cause effect we could figure a 250 HP
engine delivers 25 times the CO than a 9.25 HP engine in any
particular time. Thus we have a 250 HP engine that could deliver
enough gas to a 4500 cf area in about one minute to meet the toxicity
level. Since we're talking about Mr.Keren's 16,000 cf, we can divide
the 4500 cf into the 16,000 and come up with 3.5. 3.5 times one minute
equals 3.5 minutes. 

	Three and a half minutes for a 250 HP engine to deliver enough CO
to the toxic level for an area volume of 16,000 cubic feet. Of course
if we put two of these engines into the act, we would have less than 2
minutes.

	Of course since we don't have exact information such as the
volume of gas per minute coming out a engine we can't really figure it
all too exact. We can think the delivery is proportional the same
between the two sized engines, so the figures are sufficient for the
purpose.

	The whole thing is ridiculous anyway. It is only a response to a
ridiculous evasion. Mr.Keren has expressed previously in this thread
the Germans wouldn't have known how to arrive at any figures in order
to determine what sized engine would be suitable for exterminating
people in the Crema II and III chambers and this is why they didn't
use the well proven CO method in the first place, going by Holocaust
'facts'.

	"So you have to get the engines. They may break down. You have
no idea how many engines you would need, as the Auschwitz-Birkenau
gas chambers were much larger than those in Treblinka and Belzec."

	Its obvious Mr.Keren doesn't have the knowledge of physics to
know the Germans or anyone else could have figured it all out
mathematically after they had determined certain values. A very simple
procedure here. The ratio of CO in a quantity of exhaust, the toxic
fatal level, the volume per minute of any exhaust, and the volume of
the space into which it would be introduced. We could also know what
the parts per million would be that would constitute lethal levels.

	Why, it didn't even cross Mr.Keren's 'mind' to just think the
Germans could have just figured out the ratio in respect to the other
chambers used at "Belzec" and "Treblinka".

	Mr.Keren didn't even bother to ponder whether or not the Germans
could have, would have just built the chambers smaller to conform with
those he believes already were in existence.

	Moran would like to add this one more little surprise ending.
Since the chambers in Cremas II and III would be filled with people,
we could say the volume of 16,000 was decreased by half, that one
single 250 HP engine could deliver enough gas to the toxic level to
the 8,000 cf in 2 minutes instead of the 4 minutes for 16,000 cubic
feet, and that for two engines of the same size it would be one
minute.

	Okay, there's your answer Mr.Keren. One engine could deliver
enough gas to the chambers in Cremas II and III, if they had really
existed, in two minutes. 

	But wait, this is considering a 250 HP engine and it would be
more likely that any engine capable of propelling a multi ton tank,
and even one that could propel a submarine, it might be way bigger.
Lets say 400 HP. In this case we can reduce the two minutes to about 1
1/2 minutes. 

	But wait. If we used two 400 HP engines to introduce the required
CO, it would be about 45 seconds.

	This is a good example of why Moran revels when he sees that
Mr.Keren has responded to one of his posts.

	Thank you Mr.Keren.


	But wait a minute. What the hell is this?	
>However, he decided not to use it. He decided to use a
>different method. He visited Chelmno, and was told
>that using engine exhaust often took a long time. He
>heard the same in Treblinka. So he decided to stick with
>using Zyklon-B, which had already proved itself to kill
>rather quickly, in Auschwitz.
	Well the topic of the post had nothing to do with this. In fact
the whole thing with Ho'ss was to get other camps to use Zyklon B, not
whether or not he was going to try carbon monoxide. And as the story
has it, other camps did come to use it.


Mr.Keren's interesting final statement:

>"You're saying he was wrong? Heck, maybe he was wrong. But
>that's what he decided to do. End of story."

	"End of (Mr.Keren's) story", that is.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan  8 22:15:54 PST 1997
Article: 91879 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Babi Yar - ala Nora Levin
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 19:56:14 GMT
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>Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, October 2 1941
>['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press,
>NY, 1988, p. 67]
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Einsatzgruppen C
>Standort Kiev
>
>In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
>Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941, Sonderkommando 4a
>executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev.
>
>

	Okay, there's a "quote".
>
>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan  9 08:38:46 PST 1997
Article: 91900 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: N.Y. Pension Funds to be Withdrawn from Swiss Banks
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 18:35:04 GMT
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>The Campaign for Radical Truth in History
>Online at http://www.hoffman-info.com
>
>A concrete illustration of the immense power of the Jewish elite:

	The only power the Jews have is the weakness of those who
succumb.

>-----------------------------------------------
>JEWISH AGENCY ORDERS N.Y. PENSION FUNDS WITHDRAWN FROM SWISS BANKS 
>
>Jewish Agency head Avraham Burg said today that fears of anti-Semitic
>accusations will not deter the Agency from its efforts to recover the
>monies that rightfully belong to Holocaust-victim heirs and to the Jewish
>People. 
>
>He said that the remarks of outgoing Swiss President Jean-Pascal Delamuraz
>calling the Jewish efforts to establish a reparations fund "blackmail,"
>are anti-Semitic and are designed to lead to a blow-up in the talks. 
>
>Burg announced that the Agency is looking into the possibility of enacting
>a partial boycott of the Swiss banking system. The pension funds of New
>York municipal workers, totalling billions of dollars, will reportedly be
>withdrawn from Swiss banks. When asked by a radio reporter if the Jewish
>people are now at war with the Swiss nation, Burg replied, "No, just a
>border skirmish."

	Could it be the Jews are now hustling around the city badgering
officials into putting the withdrawn monies into Israeli accounts? Too
far out? No way.

	We should wait and see what this withdrawal will do to world
money markets.

	Blackmail - extortion attempt. The Jews are hoping the Swiss will
say "Okay, we'll give you the $250,000,000'.

	How disgusting. Putrid.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan  9 08:38:47 PST 1997
Article: 91917 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A little bit of $wi$$ offered
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 14:01:58 GMT
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>
>	   "Swiss Offer a Fund for Victims of Holocaust"
>                      N.Y.Times, Jan.8, 1997
>
>	"Seeking to diffuse the crisis over its financial dealings during
>the Nazi era, the Swiss Government offered today to use money from
>unclaimed bank accounts dating to WW II to set up a fund 'in favor of
>Holocaust victims and their dependents'.
>
>	But the offered failed to deflect a tide of Jewish anger over
>recent remarks by a high Swiss official who called Jewish demands for
>compensation 'extortion and blackmail'.
>
>	Jewish groups demanded an apology for the remarks of by the
>official, Economics Minister Jean-Pascal Delamuraz ... Last week said
>he had been 'misunderstood' and was sorry for any grief he might have
>caused.

	This is a typical Jewish demand, an apology. It is more like a
demand for one to crawl. Apologies don't do any good with the Jewish
mental state, they only lead to more demands and continued hate speech
regardless. It happened with Louis Farrakhan and Jesse Jackson. The
Jewish mind set just doesn't have the grace to accept.	

>	The public confrontation between Switzerland and Jewish groups in
>the U.S. and Israel ...
	The U.S. They must love us.
	
>	But the conflict has assumed new overtones, with talk among
>Jewish groups of an organized boycott of Swiss banks ...

	 Of course all this stuff can take place, but the Swiss don't
have to buy American products and if I was Swiss I wouldn't buy diddly
bop from the U.S. And of course there are many places to go in the
world so we might expect the Swiss can boycott spending any tourist
money on their own individual level. 

>	Switzerland's banks -- and their reputations for security and
>confidentiality -- are central to its well being. The clamor,
>particularly from the United States, for disclosure ...

	"Especially form the U.S. means 'only' from the U.S.

>	After a 90 minutes of phone conversation, the seven ministers in
>Switzerland's Cabinet issued a statement today saying the 40 million
>francs, or $29.5 million, discovered so far in dormant accounts should
>be put to proper use.
>
>	The Cabinet said it was 'ready to immediately take up discussions
>... regarding the fund ...
>
>	A Government spokesman, Achille Casanova, told reporters that
>there was no apology for Mr.Delaamuraz's contentious remarks because
>they were misunderstood.
>
>	The developments in Bern, the Swiss capital, drew and angry
>response from Avraham Burg, the chairman of the Jewish Agency in
>Jerusalem ...

	Trembling, foot stompin self designated self righteousness blow
hard show of out raged indignation. 
	
>	'The Swiss are again playing with words, attacking marginal
>issues and ignoring the central issues' and aid quoted Mr.Burg as
>saying. 'They're trying to buy us with money that's not theirs'.

	Whatever that means. ????

>	After a meeting with Swiss officials in Jerusalem, Mr.Burg said a
>decision would be reached within four weeks on whether to urge a
>boycott with Swiss banks ..."
>
	"Four weeks". Who knows what's behind that. Could be they are
going to be escalating their demands or maybe this is a statement to
cover a back off. We can wait and see.

>	The article goes on to say the Swiss do not want to give out any
>money as it could be construed as an admission of guilt that they
>profited from the Holocaust. The Swiss said not all of the money could
>be traced to Holocaust victims. 

	What the Swiss don't know is, if they said something like, 'Look
your little weasels, if you want to try your extortion racket on us
we're going to finance a world campaign to wise the world up to your
phony Holocaust' the Jews would reconsider real quick. Call their huff
and puff bluff.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Jan  9 08:38:47 PST 1997
Article: 91936 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B / Carbon monoxide comparison
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 14:55:15 GMT
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>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com writes:
>
>## The large ones in Birkenau (in Kremas II and III), which
>## are the ones we're talking about,
>
># "...the ones we're talking about ..."? Really? Where does
># he get that idea?
>
>I get it from Moran, who asked why Hoess didn't use engine
>exhaust for the Auschwitz gas chambers. Hence, these are the
>chambers we are talking about.

	Really? Where was that?
>
># Now if a 9 HP engine can deliver enough gas into an area
># of 4500 cubic feet in 30 minutes to cause effect we could
># figure a 250 HP engine delivers 25 times the CO than a
># 9.25 HP engine
>
>Do you know for a fact that there is a linear relation between
>HP output and CO output? Or are you just guessing?

	Really? Where does it say that?

># Three and a half minutes for a 250 HP engine to deliver
># enough CO to the toxic level for an area volume of 16,000
># cubic feet. Of course if we put two of these engines into
># the act, we would have less than 2 minutes.
>
>It would probably be far more than 2 minutes. There's the
>circulation, which may be a problem in such large chambers
>as in Birkenau. Also, I think that in the examples you gave
>(of accidental poisoning with engine exhaust), the engine
>was inside the space where the people were, and thus it not only
>pumped its exhaust into that space, it also used up the oxygen
>in the space. That was not the method in Treblinka etc; the
>engine was outside, so the victims will not destroy it, or
>the connections to it, and so that it could be started from
>the outside. This probably slowed the process.

	Okay, got it. The Germans put the engine outside so the victims
couldn't mess with it. And here I thought the Germans were stupid.

	And starting the engine on the outside slowed the process. Okay
got that one too.

>I would also check, in those cases of accidental poisoning,
>how far the people were from the engine. 

	Well one of the engines was in the next room, as is stated for
any eyes to see. One person was found by the door. Or we could think
that all the people were right next to the engines - steam cleaners.
Maybe they disconnected the hoses that usually come with such a rigus
and just picked it up and sprayed direct from the pump. Who knows,
maybe the rigii only came with a 2 foot hose. I think you may be on to
something here.

>Your point is moot. I said that I agree that, if Hoess would
>have decided to use engine exhaust, it would probably have
>worked. He would hook up a few big engines to each chamber,
>run them for enough time, and kill the people. He decided
>against it. One obvious reason is that Zyklon-B was being
>used in Auschwitz to kill people since 1941; it worked, 
>and people usually like to stick with methods that work. 
>Another reason, which he mentions in his memoirs, is the 
>fact that he heard about problems that occurred while using 
>engine exhaust for gassing in Chelmno and Treblinka.

	Okay. Ho'ss' testimony. Isn't he the one who said there were 3
million people killed at the camp. Could he be the one Francizek
Piper, curator of the Auschwitz Museum said wasn't trust worthy. Could
you explain what Ms.Levin meant in her book "THE HOLOCAUST" where she
says  "Hoss became a prime figure in the exterminations. At Nuremberg
he testified freely--even exaggeratedly-- ..." Basically I'd be
interested in hearing what you think she means by "exggeratedly". 

>There was also a well-known case of one of the gas-vans,
>which used engine exhaust, exploding in Chelmno (see the
>Just to Rauff letter). True, it seems to have happened
>only once, but maybe Hoess didn't want to take the chance
>of his beloved crematorium exploding.

	Everything in the Holocaust story "happens only once". I take it
you think CO is safer than HCN. LOOK INTO YOUR SCREEN Mr.Keren. You
are getting sleepy. Sleepy. Now go to browser. Enter "Hydrogen
Cyanide". Check out sites. See where explosive nature of HCN is given
much attention. After you do that, enter "carbon monoxide"  See if it
gives any CO explosiveness the same attention. When find answer, come
back and clue all in.

>When you have method A that works, you don't change it to
>method B which you heard is problematic.

	You may have another point here. He called up the guys at
Treblinka and said he had some good stuff. He told them all about it.
The guys at Treblinka said, 'Hey, wait a minute, we don't need all
that gas mask, ladder, openers, rubber suits, hoses, buckets of coal,
Doctors, SS orderlies, special training and such, all we need to do is
start engine.

># Mr.Keren has expressed previously in this thread the 
># Germans wouldn't have known how to arrive at any figures
># in order to determine what sized engine would be suitable
># for exterminating people in the Crema II and III chambers
># and this is why they didn't use the well proven CO method 
># in the first place, going by Holocaust 'facts'.
>
>I never said this. You should really stop lying so much.

	I see you have omitted, "snipped" as some say, your exact quote
which was included right after this passage. Here lets have another
look. Don't go anywhere now. Be right back. Just going to go over to
'copy' it and bring it back here for a pasting.

Mr.Keren:
"So you have to get the engines. They may break down. You have
no idea how many engines you would need, as the Auschwitz-Birkenau
gas chambers were much larger than those in Treblinka and Belzec."

	Okay, there it is. When you said "You have no idea ..." this
would mean no one would have any idea. Or maybe you meant, you,
personally had no idea.

># Okay, there's your answer Mr.Keren. One engine could deliver
># enough gas to the chambers in Cremas II and III, if they
># had really existed, in two minutes.
>
>Would you kindly tell us what the volume of that engine would
>have been, and at how many RPM's you would have to run it,
>in order to kill people in a 400 cubic meter gas chamber
>in two minutes? Consider the fact that CO is a much slower
>acting poison than the cyanide gas which Zyklon-B releases. 

	Now could you point out along the way where it said anything
about a killing anyone in two minutes. You ask how long it would take
to fill the alleged chamber. The answer was two minutes. It would
probably take another 7 to ten minutes to kill the people. 

	Oh you say CO works "much" slower than HCN? But doesn't the HCN
have to disengage itself from the pellet carrier material? Now if it
was introduced directly you may have something there. When you say CO
is "much" slower, how much slower would that be? There are reports of
it working in fifteen to twenty minutes like HCN. Was it Leleko who
said it took only ten minutes?

	Keep up the good work Mr.Keren. Your on the side of revisionism,
in an abstract sort of way. You just don't know it.

>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Jan 10 21:59:33 PST 1997
Article: 92109 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Typical Nature of Holocaust Accounts
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 12:58:01 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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>In article <32d559c3.474991@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>> Jamie McCarthy:
>> >Research.  Every other source, plus the physical evidence, indicates that
>> >Treblinka was flattened years before the Russians arrived.
>> 
>>         Jamie specializes in making rash exaggerated blurts like the one
>> here where he says Treblinka was flattened "years" before the Russians
>> took over.
=============================================================================

	We can see Mr.VanAlstine is playing 'rodeo clown' for Jamie
McCarthy. Evidently he considers Jamie too stupid to come up with
something also. We can just deal with Mr.VanAlstine's whatever anyway
adn wait to see if Jamie comes out to show he's not a child mind.

>Er, no. Given that, for example, Arad's _Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka_
>details that the Operation Reinhard death camps were ersased _years
>before_ "the Russians arrived, one is hard pressed to see how Mr. McCarthy
>was making a "rash" exaggeration. 

>Mark

	You say "...for example, Arad's ... details ... years before ..."

	"Years" plural? How many would that be? Two, three - twenty? 

	You say Arad said? Whoa. That is absolute. But then again the
other guy said.   

	"Years". We'll give you the benefit away from further absurdity.
Lets say 2 years. The Russians were there in later 1944. Nizkor
"annotation" said Aug. and beyond, 1943 the camp was still in
existance. Which is more like a year, non plural. Years would be 1942.
If it said 1942 then you would have years. From Aug. 1943 to fall 1944
is about a year.

	Whatever, Holocaust historians all have diferent dates and
accounts. That's what happens with documenting lies.

	What is it exactly Arad had to say? Just saying some idiot said
this or that means nothing. It is not admissible as evidence. Submit
the material you say and we'll go from there.

	Until then, all we have is you saying Arad said, nothing more,
nothing less.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 11 07:22:08 PST 1997
Article: 92136 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Babi Yar - ala Nora Levin
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 12:51:07 GMT
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>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> >>Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, October 2 1941
>> >>['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press,
>> >>NY, 1988, p. 67]
>> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>Einsatzgruppen C
>> >>Standort Kiev
>> >>
>> >>In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
>> >>Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941, Sonderkommando 4a
>> >>executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev.
>> 
>>         You don't suppose it could have been more like 33,770 or 33,772
>> do you? That is a pretty high number. Maybe they had one of those
>> clicker counters. You know, as they were brought up to get shot there
>> was a guy there clicking away. He could have missed one or two, or got
>> a spasm and clicked twice on some. Either way, they sure kept a pretty
>> good count.
>
>That's right, Moron.  After your Israel tree-counting gambit, I can see
>how it would gall you that anyone can count past 10, but there are
>people who can do so.
>
>Yes, the Germans did keep records of the numbers of Jews and others
>"executed" by the Einsatzgruppen.  Really annoys you that these records
>exist, doesn't it zeyde?

	The Russians released the German death account records from
Auschwitz-Birkenau. Do they annoy you? Or do you have a special
exclusionary statement for those?

>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 11 07:22:08 PST 1997
Article: 92148 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD -  The Holocaust House of Cards
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 14:38:48 GMT
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	Mr.Stein, I see you have focused exclusivley on this 'master
plan' thing under this post, which covers a lot more, the 'master
plan' being only one line in passing. Is that all you have to say?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 11 07:22:09 PST 1997
Article: 92175 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 12:35:05 GMT
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References: <01bbf808$a38accb0$257213cc@server> <32cfe798.6213994@news.gte.net> <5arric$d7k@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <32e0675b.3954215@199.0.216.204> <5au09i$8pe@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>I wrote:
>
>: >Disbelief in some event is not, in and of itself, a "bad thing."  
>: >Since, however, the Holocaust is such a thoroughly documented event,
>: >it's necessary to ask why anyone would disbelieve in it.  Antisemitism
>: >seems the most likely explanation, although insanity, ignorance and 
>: >stupidity are also possibilities.
>
>: 	Mr.Anderson, the documented things among the "documented event"
>: you speak of are a number of claims that are not held to be true that
>: were once held to be true. So I take it you are saying all the things
>: that are currently said to be true are not subject to question. Is
>: that right?  
>
>Um... I'm not sure, Tom.  If I parse your syntax correctly, you're
>making two claims here:
>
>1) A number of things once believed to be the case about the Holocaust
>   are no longer believed to be the case.
>
>This is almost certainly true--it's true of any historical event.  
>However, the basic facts of the Holocaust have remained pretty 
>much the same for decades.  You aren't talking about your oft-
>refuted "Auschwitz Four Million" claim here, are you?  I should 
>think you'd be ready to let that one drop by now, as often as 
>you've been made to look silly with it.
>
>2) Historians believe that the currently-accepted account of the
>   Holocaust is beyond dispute, in all its details.
>
>This is emphatically not true, and you are invited to submit the
>results of your meticulous research to this group, or to any 
>of a number of journals specializing in such things.  If you do,
>indeed, have such findings, one can only wonder why you continue
>to post the same old refuted blather, time and again.
>
>Bill 
 
	Begin refuting. Point by point. There are some posts out there
right now. Go for it.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 11 12:15:43 PST 1997
Article: 210669 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.radio.talk,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,alt.revolution
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 11 12:15:44 PST 1997
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 11 12:15:45 PST 1997
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 11 12:15:46 PST 1997
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 11 12:15:47 PST 1997
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 11 12:15:48 PST 1997
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 11 12:15:48 PST 1997
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 11 12:15:50 PST 1997
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 11 12:15:51 PST 1997
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 11 12:15:51 PST 1997
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 11 12:15:52 PST 1997
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 11 12:15:53 PST 1997
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 11 12:15:53 PST 1997
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Jan 11 15:14:57 PST 1997
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Jan 12 18:11:32 PST 1997
Article: 92503 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Treblinka - ala Nora Levin
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 16:23:02 GMT
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	Generally Holocaust books are a miscombobulated pot pourri of
accounts that do not make it easy to research any particular aspect of
the story. 
	Take Nora Levin's book "The Holocaust - The destruction of
European Jewry 1933-1945".
	Should you want to see what she offers for proof of say,
Treblinka, we would go to the index like we would with any book.

	Under "Treblinka" in the index of Levin's book we see the page
numbers:
	163, 202, 231, 232, 233, 254, 289, 301, 303, 306, 313, 314, 315,
317, 318, 327, 329, 336, 343.

	Now should we want to research the truth or falsity of the
existence of this camp it is completely natural to start with this
index, looking up each page to see what there is.

	Lets take a look at how she goes about it. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------

	Page 163: "Globocnik's labor camps became half way houses to
extermination. In 1941, he became head of all of the extermination
camps in Government General--Treblinka and the three camps in the
Lublin district ..."

	Page 202: "This threat was made on the third day of the massive
deportations from Warsaw to the death camp at Treblinka."

	Page: 231: "This appeared one month before the deportations to
Treblinka."

	Page 232: '"Einsatz Reinhart" then swept up 250,000 Jews from
Lvov, Krakow, Tarnow, Sosnowiece and Lublin and deported them to
Belzec, Maidenek, Sobibor, Treblinka and Auschwitz before decimating
Warsaw."

	Page 233: "In Stawki Street, 7,000 people were loaded into
freight wagons and transported to Maidenek [read Treblinka], where
they were all killed in gas chambers."

	Page: 254: "The killing rate, almost 35,000 in two days, was
unequaled even by the death factories of Treblinka and Auschwitz."

	Page 289: "Jammed, airless transports rumbled to Treblinka and
Sobibor."

	Page 301: "But the officially sanctioned method, systematically
carried out and responsible for the destruction of the greatest number
of victims was death by asphyxiation: by carbon monoxide in the four
large Polish camps (Chelmno, Belzek, Sobibor and Treblinka) and by
prussic acid at Maidenek and Auschwitz."

	Page 303: "One might already be reading about the processes at
Auschwitz and Treblinka."

	Page 306: "...the Chelmno operation could handle only 1,000
deaths a day and the method of eliminating mass graves by dynamite
proved ineffective until Einsatzkommando leader Blobel introduced the
method he had instituted at Treblinka--constructing vast pyres of iron
rails and wooden sleepers to consume the bodies so that, as Himmler
had ordered, even the ashes would disappear."

	Page 313: "What happened at Belzek for hundreds of thousands of
Jews happened also at Treblinka and Sobibior and Maidenek. There is
little to add to Gertsein's report. At Treblinka, the method was
somewhat different: the gas chambers were charged with the engines of
captured Russian tanks and lorries. ... Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno
and Belzek were almost exclusively death centers and had no non-Jewish
inmates. Except for very minor industrial activity in Treblinka and
Sobibor, they were not linked to war time production."

	Page 314: "Not more than a few dozen survived the Sonderkommando
rebellions of 1943 in Treblinka and Sobibor and the one in Chelmno in
January 1944."

	Page 315: "Ho'ss had been to Treblinka, where only 80,000 could
be exterminated in half a year. Treblinka used carbon monoxide and had
relatively small gas chambers; besides, at Treblinka, the victims
often knew what was in store for them and created 'riots and other
difficulties'. In these respects Ho'ss improved on the Treblinka
techniques."

	Page 317: "The failure to complete the Treblinka gassing
installation in April had delayed the Warsaw 'resettlement'."

	Page 318: "On July 22, his field adjutant, General Karl Wolff,
was assured, 'One train a day with 5,000 Jews goes from Warsaw to
Treblinka'."

	Page 327: "'Treblinka is terrifying' they said, 'but Warsaw is
Warsaw'."

	Page 329: "From the myth of 'resettlement', based on historic
Jewish traditions of autonomy, to the 'bath houses' of Treblinka, the
Germans had successfully deluded most Jews."

	Page 336: "They posted placards explaining what Treblinka
signified and called for resistance; they distributed leaflets."

	Page 343: "In December 1942, they overcame the guards in the
prison on Nowolipie Street and freed 100 'illegal' Jews held for
transport to Treblinka."
=======================================================================

	What is evident, is there is nothing, even in the slightest that
could convince the scientific thinking mind of the reality of the
these Treblinka accounts, much less the reality that it even existed
at all. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 13 07:14:18 PST 1997
Article: 92600 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A word for Mr.Sabatini
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 01:49:33 GMT
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	There seems to be a continuing dialog of disagreement revolving
around Mr.Sabatini's posting of his analysis of Nizkor URL dossiers on
those who disagree. Basically Mr.Sabatini said he noticed Nizkor URL
dossiers are nothing more than articles taken from the middle of
threads. It seems Mr.Sabatini has used the word "reconstruct" as in
you can't reconstruct a thread out of what is filed in any particular
Nizkor URL dossier. This gave the impetus for those who are
connoisseurs of the value of Nizkor URL dossiers to try and bleed it
for everything they could in a campaign to harp.

	Of course anyone could go into Nizkor URL dossier files and get
some names and stuff and then take it over to Deja News and work it
around that way. 

	But, you can't do it in Nizkor files. Nope. If you want to do it
you have to go someplace else. Nizkor URL dossiers are nothing more
than one single article from a thread, excluding everything else, even
the original article that was posted that led to the thread.

	Mr.Sabatini seems to think this is unfair, corrupt even. Perhaps
he is right. But we should look at this way, no one goes to Nizkor URL
dossiers except once. Once they see what it is, they know Nizkor for
what it is.

	Moran loves Nizkor's URL dossiers.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Jan 13 10:35:26 PST 1997
Article: 92650 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe,alt.revisionism,soc.history,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.nordic,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Nazis Must Be Banned
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:55:55 GMT
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>THE LAST NEST OF NAZIS IN EUROPE
>by
>Eric Margolis  12 Dec 1996
>Milosevic's eventual fall would be a boon for long-
>suffering Serbs, and the entire Balkans. A Serb protestor's
>placard, with pictures of Milosevic, Saddam, and Castro -
>entitled `Three of a Kind' - captured the moment nicely.  

	I don't much about this guy Milosevic, but I have my opinions
about Castro. Before Castro, Batista. During Batista, no hospitals, or
schools for the masses. After Castro, schools and medicine. Regardless
of anything that could be said negative about Castro, what came after
Castro is way better than what was before him.

	As for Saddam. He's not my enemy. Everything that can be and was
said against him can be applied detail for detail to something we
support.

	The rest with it's reoccurring "Nazi" word is the same in it's
rambling whatever.

	I'm going to file this commentary away under 'politically
correct/establishment/crap.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Jan 15 13:19:28 PST 1997
Article: 93032 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Auschwitz - The Death Factory
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:07:04 GMT
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>Archive/File: camps/auschwitz auschwitz.01
>Last-modified: 1994/12/26

	The longer the accounts, the better it is to compare to other
testimonies and raise questions. This is one of them.

>THE EXTERMINATION FACTORY - AUSCHWITZ
>
>  The extermination plant with the most advanced design anywhere in the
>world consisted of two large crematoria/gas chambers and two smaller ones.

	"The most advanced kind anywhere in the world"? Where else in the
world were there other extermination plants? 

	Now we go on to the relating of how this "most advanced design
anywhere" operated.

>Crematoria Four and Five were built on the surface of the ground.
>Crematoria Two and Three had subteranian gas chambers and reception areas.
>They were about 102 meters long by 51 meters across.

	Photographs do not support the dimensions given here, unless the
story teller is including the subterranean room to add to the length.
We can take notice of the exactitude of the numbers given, "102" and
"51" meters.

	The story teller mentions "reception areas". Where would they be?
What other account mentions any "reception" areas?

>  The basement
>consisted of two main rooms -- the undressing area, which also served as a
>mortuary, and a gas chamber.  Victims climbed down the steps into the
>basement. 

	Some authorities on alt.revisionism insist on elevators. Any way
here we are starting to see how the "most advanced" killing center in
the world was set up. The people would be killed by the thousands, day
after day, week after week, month after month in an underground room
and had to be transported back up the stairs when dead. 

> Those who could not walk were pushed down a concrete slide.

	Most wild tales in the Holocaust story only happen once. Is this
sliding the people down a shute mentioned by any others?

>The gas chamber, about 225 square meters, looked like a large communal
>bathroom with shower heads:

	Ah. Shower heads. That was the most popular topic in the years
following the war. Everyone knew about the shower heads. Even the ones
that were said to have been at Buchenwald and Bergen Belsen for
instance, two camps now admitted and recognized not to have been
extermination centers where gassing took place.

  
>     The Zyclon B gas crystals were inserted through openings into
>     the hollow pillars made of sheet metal.  They were perforated at
>     regular intervals and inside them a spiral ran from top to
>     bottom in order to ensure as even a distribution of the granular
>     crystals as possible.  Mounted on the ceiling was a large number
>     of dummy showers made of metal.

	Zyklon B "crystals". Some times it was pellets and even once
powder.

	Sheet metal columns. Sometimes it's concrete. Sometimes it's wire
mesh. It all depends on the accounts you read.

	Shower heads again.

>The largest room in the factory, the changing chambers, accommodated 1,000
>people.  Notices throughout the room contributed to a "cunning . . . and
>clumsy deception" -- telling victims they were in disinfection rooms,
>urging clenliness, reminding them to remember their clothing hook
>number.[39]

	At one time the story had it the people were given bars of soap
made of stone.

>  The extermination plant contained a hair-drying loft run by fifteen
>Orthodox Jews.  Spread over the floor, noticed Muller from the
>extermination staff, was women's hair of every color:
>
>     Washing lines were strung across the room.  Pegged on these
>     lines like wet washing were further batches of hair which had
>     first been washed in a solution of ammonium chloride.  When the
>     hair was nearly dry, it was spread on the warm floor to finish
>     off.  Finally it was combed out by prisoners and put into paper
>     bags.[40]

	The "loft" would be upstairs, in the attic. Lets see if we can
get a clearer picture of all this. They cut off the peoples hair, down
in the cellar we can assume, and then they brought it up the stairs to
first floor and then up to the attic. Was it in bags? Boxes? Was it
carried up by the hand full? Either way we can see that the hair would
have had to go through a bit of tangling and disorganization. And then
it was all washed out with ammonium chloride and hung up on lines, and
then strewn on the floor to dry? And then picked up and combed out?
Short hair, long hair? Well this certainly must have been a problem.
Does he mean they went through all that and then just shoved the
combed out hair into paper bags? Wait a minute. Did they have paper
bags way back then? 

>  The SS set up a gold-melting room in the plant.  There two dental
>technicians soaked the teeth for hours in acid to remove bone and flesh,
>and used a blowtorch to melt the gold into molds.  They produced as much
>as 5 to 10 kilos a day.

	Should we just have to think where in the "plant" this tooth
dissolving, gold melting and ingot making took place? Or, is some one
going to come out and tell us? Say, where in the heck did they take
out the teeth in the first place? Was it at the room? Did they do it
right there in the cellars? 
     Can we picture piles of bodies all stacked with gaping and torn
out jaws?

>  As in Treblinka, the stoking gangs sorted out the bodies into
>combustability catagories: strong men, women, children, and Mussulmans.
>The SS staff had performed earlier experiments to find ways to economize
>on fuel -- with the help of Topf and Sons, civilian experts:

>     In the course of these experiments corpses were selected
>     according to different criteria and the cremated.  Thus the
>     corpses of two Mussulmans were cremated together with those of
>     two children or the bodies of two well-nourished men together
>     with that of an emaciated woman, each load consisting of three,
>     or sometimes, four bodies.  Members of these groups were
>     especially interested in the amount of coke required to burn
>     corpses of any particular catagory, and in the time it took to
>     cremate them.  During these macabre experiments different kinds
>     of coke were used and the results carefully recorded.

	Okay, the first paragraph was by the author of the book this post
came out of and this above paragraph is by a source himself. Are we
still talking about Muller? 

	Here we are getting a deeper picture of the "most advanced"
system. They had to figure out what kind of coke to use. 

	We are given the conditions for a clearer picture of what all the
stacked up bodies would have looked like. Strong men, thus weak men,
healthy women, sick women, children, of various sorted ages we could
figure. What was it, they had all the different categories stacked
along the walls and whenever they had to stuff the different bodies
into the ovens did they have to run back and forth and select the
combos they wanted?    


>       Afterwards, all corpses were divided into the above-mentioned
>     catagories, the criterion being the amount of coke required to
>     reduce them to ashes.  Thus it was decreed that the most
>     economical and fuel-saving procedure would be to burn the bodies
>     of a well-nourished man and an emaciated woman, or vice versa,
>     together with that of a child, because, as the experiments had
>     established, in this combination, once they had caught fire, the
>     dead would continue to burn without any further coke being
>     required.[41]

	Lets get this straight. The Germans didn't just fire up the ovens
and keep them at a constant temperature? They eased off or piled it on
according to what combination was in the ovens?


>  As early as June 13, 1943, all was not well with the new installation.
>The Central SS Construction Management of Auschwitz sent a letter to a
>German equipment firm urging the completion of carpentry work in the new
>crematoria.  The chief requested the delivery without delay of the doors
>for the crematoria, "which [are] urgently needed for the execution of the
>special measures; otherwise, the progress of the construction will be
>jeopardized."  In addition, he demanded the completion of the windows for
>the reception building.  If the carpentry work could not be done, building
>operations would have to be suspended for the winter.  Eventually the
>ovens seemed to fall apart.  Crematorium Four failed completely after a
>short time and Crematoria Five had to be shut down repeatedly.[42]

	Here we have talk of June 13, 1943 and then we have talk of
something having to be suspended for the winter. As we go along here
we aren't sure what Crema is being discussed. This happens quite often
in Holocaust bboks. There are little clues. Before we had the
"reception area" being mentioned in context with Crema II and III and
here we have a "reception building". So it appears the passage is
relating to Crema II and III, and here after citing a June 1943 date
they are still not completed? But the story has it the other later
Cremas IV and V should have been completed by this time. And then the
"most advanced" killing center in the world wasn't doing so hot.
Everything seemed to be falling apart within months, or even weeks of
it being put into operation.   


>  The plans for the crematoria have been preserved by an architect who
>stole them from the Birkenau plant.  The one-story buildings looked like
>large bakeries with steep roofs and dormer windows.  The underground gas
>chambers rose 51 centimeters above the ground to form a grassy terrace.
>No one would know at first glance what they were.  Crematoria Two and
>Three were close to the camp and visible.  Pine trees and birches hid
>crematoria Four and Five.  Around the crematoria lay large piles of wood
>for burning the corpses in the nearby pits.  All chambers had doors with
>thick observation windows.  In 1942 and 1943 alone those chambers used 27
>tons of Cyclone B.  The gas chambers and the crematoria of Auschwitz were
>called "special installations," "bath houses," and "corpse cellars."[43]

	So here we have "In 1942 and 1943 alone those chambers ..." when
the story has it also that II, III, IV and V weren't built until 1943.

>  Each day the trains rolled into the camp through the passageway
>constructed in the far gate, down one of three tracks to the selection
>platform.  As they fell out of the trains, the victims were sent one way
>or another, with tearful prting scenes.  The procession moved to the
>crematoria yard where the SS told the Jews they were going to take
>disinfection baths.  An orchestra of attractive women played gay tunes
>from operas and light marches.  Then to the dressing room or reception
>center with numbered clothing pegs drivin into the walls.  The SS ordered
>the victims to undress and to remember their numbers.  Sometimes they gave
>them towels.  Then the SS drove the victims through the corridor to the
>heated gas chamber.  The heating was provided not for the comfort of the
>prisoners but to create a better setting for the evaporation of gas.  The
>gas squads packed the 2,000 victims into the room.  From the ceiling hung
>imitation shower heads.  The doors were closed, the air was pumped out,
>and the gas poured in.  Cyclone B, or hydrogen cyanide, is a very
>poisonous gas that causes death by internal suffocation.  In sufficient
>concentrations, it causes death almost immediately.  But the SS did not
>bother to calculate the proper quantities, so death took anywhere from
>three to twenty minutes.  While the victims were dying, the SS witched
>through the peepholes.

	Okay "2,000" people per chamber. Which chambers are we talking
about now? Evidently Cremas II and III since here we have a "reception
center". Other tales have it the chambers could take only 1,000. Here
we have the tale of the chambers being heated.

	What "The SS did not bother to calculate the proper quantities"
of Zyklon B? What the Germans did all the stuff with calculating what
kind of coke to use and how much they would need for any particular
combination of bodies and they didn't bother to calculate the Zyklon
B? What, at times they threw in 2 kilos and others they threw in 10
kilos? Since the account has it that it took from 3 minutes to 7 times
that long, 20 minutes, we can see there was quite a variation in the
amounts of Zyklon B they used. What was it all based on? Personal
mood?  

>  When they opened the doors, they found the victims in half-sitting
>positions in a towerlike pile.  Most were pink, others were covered with
>green spots.  Some had foam on their lips, while others bleeding from the
>nose.  Many had their eyes open.  The majority were packed near the doors.
>The squads in special clothing moved in with hooks to pull the bodies off
>of each other.

	Okay here we have the people were pink or covered with green
spots. Uh? Other accounts have the victims all covered with blue
stains. Maybe we could picture some having all the traits, pink, green
spots and blue all at the same time.
	 
	
>  The SS physicians and scientists monitored the selection and the
>gassing, watching the procedure through the special airtight door.  The
>doors could not be opened until the doctor gave the sign that all victims
>were dead.  The doctors assumed their monitoring of the killings on a
>rotating basis.[44]

	All these doctors and such didn't seem to be needed at other
camps. It seems to be a special need just for Auschwitz. 

>  Two German firms, Tesch/Stabenow and Degesch, produced Cyclone B gas
>after they acquired the patent from Farben.  Tesch supplied two tons a
>month, and Degesch three quarters of a ton.  The firms that produced the
>gas already had extensive experience in fumigation.  "In short, this
>industry used very powerful gases to exterminate rodents and insects in
>enclosed spaces; that it should now have become involved in an operation
>to kill off Jews by the hundreds of thousands is not mere accident."[45]
>Afetr the war the directors of the firms insisted that they had sold their
>products for fumigation purposes and did not know they were being used on
>humans.  But the prosecutors found letters from Tesch not only offering to
>supply the gas crystals but also advising how to use the ventilating and
>heating equipment.  Hoss testified that the Tesch directors could not help
>but know of the use for their product because they sold him enough to
>annihilate two million people.  Two Tesch partners were sentanced to death
>in 1946 and hanged.  The director of Degesch recieved five years in
>prison.

	Okay we can get the idea from this the prosecutors found letters
for the use of Zyklon B, but we are not told if the letters referred
directly to gas chambers for people or for fumigation purposes. But
then we have it all being cleared up by Ho'ss with his testimony that
they had to know it was for exterminating people, not that the letters
stated anything exactly. Poor Tesch directors. Hung.

>  The scientifically planned crematoria should have been able to handle
>the total project, but they could not.  The whole complex had forty-six
>retorts, each with the capacity for three to five persons.  The burning in
>a retort lasted about half an hour.  It took an hour a day to clean them
>out.  Thus it was theoretically possible to cremate about 12,000 corpses
>in twenty four hours or 4,380,000 a year.  But the well-constructed
>crematoria fell far behind at a number of camps, and especially at
>Aschwitz in 1944.  In August the total cremation reached a peak one day of
>24,000, but still a bottleneck occurred.  Camp authorities needed an
>economic and fast method of corpse disposal, so they again dug six huge
>pits beside Crematorium Five and reopened old pits in the wood.

	Now we can see the "scientifically planned" nature of the
planning wasn't so scientific or ready for what was to come.  

>  Thus, late in 1944, pit burning became the chief method of corpse
>disposal.  The pits had indentations at one end from which human fat
>drained off.  To keep the pits burning, the stokers poured oil, alcohol,
>and large quantities of boiling human fat over the bodies:
>
>     The sizzling fat was scooped out with buckets on a long curved
>     rod and poured all over the pit causing flames to leap up amid
>     much crackling and hissing. . . . The air reeked of oil, fat,
>     benzole and burnt flesh.
>
>  Muller described the ghastly scene:
>
>     The corpses in the pit looked as if they had been chained
>     together.  Tounges of a thousand tiny blue-red flames were
>     licking at them.  The fire grew fiercer and flames leapt higher
>     and heigher.  Under the ever-increasing heat a few of the dead
>     began to stir, writhing as though with some unbearable pain,
>     arms and legs straining in slow motion, and even their bodies
>     streightening up a little, hesitant and with difficulty, almost
>     as if with their last strength they were trying to rebel against
>     their doom.  Eventually the fire became so fierce that the
>     corpses were enveloped by flames.  Blisters which had formed on
>     their skin burst one by one.  Almost every corpse was covered
>     with black scorch marks and glistening as if it had been
>     greased.  The searing heat had burst open their bellies: there
>     was the violent hissing and sputtering of frying in great heat.
>     Boiling fat flowed into the pans on either side of the pit.
>     Fanned by the wind, the flames, dark-red before, now took on a
>     fiery white hue: the corpses were burning so fiercely that they
>     were consumed by their own heat.  The process of incineraton
>     took five to six hours.  What was left barely filled a third of
>     the pit.  The shiny whitish-grey surface was strewn with
>     countless skulls.[46]

	Golly. Skulls laying around on top of the ashes? Is there any
other accounts coming from any other eyewitnesses for this camp or
other camps? No way. This is personal imagination.

	Here the accounting has it the pits were burning until "late in
1944". How late would that be? "Late". There seems to some confusion
as to when the Birkenau operation was closed down. Some of it has it
until around Aug. or Sept. Here we have it going full blast late into
1944.

>  At intervals, flamethrowers were brought in to destroy the rotten
>remains.  In the center of Nazi industrial might it was the open pits that
>finally broke the bottleneck of bodies: a technique from ancient times.

	So all that scientific planning and cremation ovens was for
naught. Flame thrower assist? 

>  Burning that many bodies produced an enormous quantity of ashes.  To
>finish the task, the labor squad cooled the ashes with water, shoveled out
>the ashes, piled them in heaps, removed remaining bones and limbs with
>special tools, reburnt the limbs, pulverized the ashes, and buried them in
>pits or threw them into the marshes.  Later they threw the ashes into the
>Vistula and Solo rivers.  A small, carefully sifted quantity was kept in a
>shed.  Sometimes families were notified of the death of their loved ones
>and in return for money they would recieve urns filled with the ashes.[47]

	Sometimes families were notified? 'Dear Family, on receipt of
your money we will send you the ashes of your loved ones that we have
gassed and cremated.' Where were the families? Who knows.

	Anyway, we can see there are plenty of questions we can raise
about the truth of this account by Muller. Too bad they didn't have
him at the Zundel trial where he could be put under cross examination,
like the rest that broke down.

	Anyway we might as well throw in another thing Muller said in his
book, "Eyewitness Auschwitz". That the muscles of those who had been
shot were cut from their legs by the Germans and thrown into a bucket.
He claimed the muscles "were still working and contracting, making the
bucket jump about."


>[39] Muller, Eyewitness Auschwitz, 60-61; Serge Klarsfield, The Holocaust
>   and Neo-Nazi Mythomania, 109-119
>[40] Muller, Eyewitness Auschwitz, 65
>[41] Ibid, 99-100
>[42] TWC V:624
>[43] Between 1945 and 1962 Polish officials found five manuscripts written
>   by Sonderkommando members befor etheir deaths.  The published
>   manuscripts and documents relate to the specific process of
>   extermination at Birkenau, and provide detailed descriptions of the
>   crematoria and gas chambers.
>[44] Auschwitz, Vol I, Pt. I, 61.
>[45] Hilberg, 567.  Commandant of Auschwitz (London: Weidenfeld and
>   Nicholson, 1959)
>[46] Naumann, Auschwitz, 267; and Muller, Eyewitness Auschwitz, 136-137
>[47] Muller, Eyewitness Auschwitz, 138-139.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------- 
>"Hitler's Death Camps" by Konnilyn G. Feig  LOC D810.J4 F36 1981
>---------------------------------------------------------------- 
>
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