From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Jul 10 06:55:51 PDT 1996
Article: 49361 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Can Tom Moran Read? (Re: Racism in Holocaust books)
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:17:08 -0700
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In article <4rsg0v$juv@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> >
> >  ># V.                         Raul Hilberg,
> >  >#             "The Destruction of European Jews"
> >  >#
> >  ># "On October 30, 1941, Gebietskommissar Carl of Slutsk reported to
> >  ># Generalkommissar Kube of White Russia that the 11th Lithuanian Police
> >  ># Battalion had arrived in his city suddenly in order to wipe out the
> >  ># Jewish community. He had pleaded with the battalion commander for a
> >  ># postponement, pointing out that the Jews were working as skilled
> >  ># laborers and specialists and that White Russian mechanics were, '"so
> >  ># to speak, nonexistent'".
> >  >#        Stupid Russians.
>  
> >       Why? And how do we know any truth of the quote? Now why would
> >  Hilberg include this in his book? 
> 
> Because it is true. It is an accurate description of what the social 
> structure and reality was.  If you have any contrary evidence please post it.

It was a partial quote from _Destruction_ that was taken out of context by
Moran, as I've previously noted.

> >  And why did you not address the other examples? Was it because
> >  you couldn't think of an angle like the above?
> 
>   Because it's not worth the effort.

The _other_ "examples" are fabrications and cannot be found in the book. 

> >  >Have you considered the possibility that you are senile, and that
> >  >you cannot understand simple written text? Maybe it's time to join
> >  >Giwer and retire?
> 
> Why did you not deal with this post.  It is because you know you are a bigot 
> and a liar.

Yes, Moran certainly is. In the worst way too- he's a _stupid_ liar: 

In article <31dd3267.3671351@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

Once more Moran breaks wind in alt.revisionism with yet another decietful
and worthless exposition in intellectual dishonesty:

>         
>                          Partial Repost
>                     from "Holocaust of Mind"
>                                     
> 
> V.                         Raul Hilberg,
>              "The Destruction of European Jews"
> 
> "On October 30, 1941, Gebietskommissar Carl of Slutsk reported to
> Generalkommissar Kube of White Russia that the 11th Lithuanian Police
> Battalion had arrived in his city suddenly in order to wipe out the
> Jewish community. He had pleaded with the battalion commander for a
> postponement, pointing out that the Jews were working as skilled
> laborers and specialists and that White Russian mechanics were, '"so
> to speak, nonexistent'".

"On October30, 1941, Gebeitskommisar Carl of Sluzk, WHite Russia, reported
to Kube that the 11th Lithuanian Police battalion had arrived in his city
and had come suddenly in order to wipe out the Jewish community. He had
pleaded with the battalion commander for a postponement, pointing out that
the Jews were working as skilled laborers and specialists and that White
Russian mechanics were, 'so to speak, nonexistant.' Certainly the skilled
men would have to be sifted out. The battalion commander did not
contradict him, and the interview ended upon a note of complete
understanding. The police battalion then encircled the Jewish quarter and
dragged out everybody. White Russians in the area tried desperately to get
out. Factories and workshops stopped fucntioning. The _Geibietskommissar_
hurried to the scene; he was shocked by what he saw. 'There was no
question of an action against the Jews anymore. It looked rather like a
revolution.' Shots were fired. Lithuanian police hit Jews with rifle butts
and rubber truncheons. Shops were turned inside out. Peasant carts
(_Panjewagen_) which had been ordered by the army to move ammunition stood
abandoned with their horses in the streets. Outside the town the mass
shootings were carried out hurredly. Some of the Jews, wounded but not
killed, worked themselves out of the graves. When the police battalion
departed, Gebeitskommisar Carl had a handful of Jewish workers left. In
every shop there were a few survivors, some of them with bloddy and
bruised faces, their wives and children dead." (Ibid. p.246.)

And what of such actions? What did they accomplish, besides brutal and
wanton mass murder? According to Hilberg a report dated December 2, 1941,
by an expert in the Armament Inspectorate, Oberkreigsverwaltungsrat
Professor Seraphim, to the chief of the Economy-Armaments Office in the
OKW summarized it thus:

"Serophim wrote that, obviously, 'the kind of solution of the Jewish
problem applied in the Ukraine' was based on ideological theories, not on
economic considerations. So far, 150,000 to 200,000 Jews had been
'executed' in the _Reichkommissariat_. One result of this operation was
that considerable numbers of 'superflous eaters' had been eliminated.
Undoubtably, the dead had also been a hostile element 'which hated us.' On
the other hand, the Jews had been 'anxious' and 'obliging' from the start.
They had tried to avoid everything that might have displeased the German
administration; they had played no significant part in sabotage; they had
constituted no danger to the armed forces. Although driven only by fear,
they had been producing goods in satisfactory quantities.

"Moreover the killing of the Jews could not be looked upon as an isolated
phenomenon. The city population and farm laborers were already starving.
'It must be realized,' concluded Seraphim, 'that in the Ukraine only
Ukranians can produce economic values. If we shoot the Jews, let the
prisoners of war perish, condemn considerable parts of the urban
population to death by starvation, and lose also part of the farming
population by hunger during the next year, the question remains
unanswered: Who in all the world is then supposed to produce something
valuable here?' The answer to this rhetorical question was soon to be
provided by Himmler's men.

"The sweep through the _Ostland_ in the fall of 1941 was only a warmup,
but it settled a decisive issue. The Jews were at the disposal of the
civil and military authorities only at the sufference of the SS and
Police. The killers had first claim. (Ibid. p.247.)


>         Stupid Russians.

Hardly. Stupid Nazis. And stupid Moran for taken Hilberg, who can easily
be verified, out of context.

>                             =================
> 
> 
> VI.          "The Destruction of the European Jewery"
>                         Raul Hilberg    
> 
>         "On Nov.7 Gouverneur Fischer of the Warsaw district proposed that
> the Warsaw Jews (whose number he estimated at 300,000) be incarcerated
> in a ghetto, and Frank gave his immediate consent... 

"...Across from the border of the incorporated territories, in the
_Generalgouvernement_, Gouverneur Fischer of the Warsaw District proposed,
as early as November 7, 1939, that the Warsaw Jews (who's number he
estimated at 300,000) be incarcerated in a ghetto. Frank gave his
immediate consent to the proposal, but the plan was premature. The
administrative obsticles were formidable; the emigration policy was still
in force; and the military offices in the city - to whom, in the meantime,
the Jews were appealing for intervention - were apparently opposed to the
whole idea. In February, 1940, the proposal was renewed by the SS and
Police, only to be opposed on administrative grounds by the civilian
offices in Warsaw. But the project was far from dead." (_Destruction_,
p.150.)

> ...During the winter, Fischer created a Resettlement Division under 
> Waldermar Schon, who was going to have a major role in ghetto planning...

I have no idea where this text is in _Destruction_. (I suspect it is not.)
The only mention of Scho"n in the index occurs on page 151 and reads:

"...However, as an excuse for the establishment of of the [Warsaw] ghetto,
the Jewish typhus cases were more important even than Jewish criminality
and the Jewish drive for world power. In February, 1941, the chief of the
Migration Section, in the Interior Division of the office of the Warsaw
_Gouverneur_, Reichsamtsleiter Scho"n, listed three reasons for the
ghettoization. His reasons, in order of importance, were the epidemics,
Jewish black-market activity and price gouging, and 'political and moral'
reasons. In March the Medical Division in the office of the Warsaw
_Gouverneur_, in co-operation with the Propaganda Division of the
district, launched a propaganda campaing directed at the Polish
population. The two divisions had devised a slogan which they circulated
on posters, in newspapers, in movies, and in schools. the slogan was
'Jews-Lice-Typhus' (Juden-La"use-Fleckfieber)." (Ibid. p.151.)

> ...The first idea, in February, to locate the ghetto in the eastern bank 
> of the Vistula River, was turned down ... 

I cannot find this text in _Destruction_. However, what Hilberg has to say
on the formation of the Warsaw ghetto is instructive:

"We need not discuss the details of the ghetto formation in Warsaw,
because they are quite similar to the administrative measures which had
been taken in Lodz..." (Ibid. p.151.)

> ...on the ground that 80 percent of Warsaw's artisans were Jews
>... and were indispensible ..."

Again, I have no idea where this text is in _Destruction_. (I suspect it
does not exist.) The only mention of arists (no mention of artisans) in
the index occurs on page 58:

"...When Goebbels, the party's propaganda chief, formed his Propaganda
Ministry, he began to issue decrees. One of the first measures was the
decree of October 4, 1933, which directed the newspapers to remove all
non-Aryan editors. Other regulations which followed assured ouster of
Jewish musicians, artists, writers, and so, by exluding them from the
guilds ('chambers'). No artist could practice unless he was a member of
one of the Goebbels-controlled guilds." (Ibid. p.58.)

One has to wonder what possible importance the Nazis would have attached
to artisans who were Polish Jews if they did not attach any importance to
artists who were German Jews whom they persecuted?

> Well it seems Hilberg gives the Poles more sense than the White
> Russians whose talents he claimed were for the most part "nonexistant"
> in relation to the Jews and the Poles in their own nation made up 20%.
> Either way - stupid Poles.

Not at all. Hilberg makes no such claims. Moran, twisting and distorting
Hilberg- not to mention fabricating quotes attributed to Hilberg out of
whole cloth -does. 

Case in point is this stupid innuendo about the White Russians.
Gebietskommissar Carl was quoted as saying that: "White Russian mechanics
were, 'so to speak, nonexistant." In other words, there weren't any
around. Probably because the Nazis either killed them all, or they were in
hiding, or they fled with the retreating Red Army. 

> One could wonder what ratio of "artisans" he would profess the
> Jews have in America. 

Hardly. One _can_, however, wonder at the depths of intellectual depravity
that Moran will plumb in his Jew-bashing. So far the abyss of his
anti-Semitism and hatred appears bottomless. 

[Given the above pack of lies, deciet and distortions on Moran's part the
rest of his mental sewage is mercifully snipped]

Mark


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"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
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