Archive/File: people/h/hunt.bob hunt.0395

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Article: 23210 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Heeeee's Baaaaack (was:Re: CYANIDE GASSINGS)
Date: 29 Mar 1995 16:24:25 -0500
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>I thought you went away because we were too judgemental for you?

Well, that's true and not likely to change, but I took a break because the
Zelig Effect was setting in.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


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Article: 23211 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CYANIDE GASSINGS
Date: 29 Mar 1995 16:47:16 -0500
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Bill Stuart writes:

>Cyanide does not kill by oxygen deprivation. Here's how it works:

Thanks for your reply and allow me to apologize for my pre-emptive
combative response to your initial post.  It's a holdover from some
low-key discussions held here earlier, and it's not necessary.

You describe in some detail exactly how the cyanide blocks the flow of
oxygen into the body and then say that this is not oxygen deprivation.  I
have no doubt that the activities of the substance cause some side effects
unrelated to say, being choked, but these are not typically fatal side
effects.  Death occurs because of a shortage of oxygen in the body. 
DuPont safety literature on the subject refers to "asphyxiation", which
may be slightly off technically, but not by much.  A quote from their
manual states, "Its toxic effect results from the inhibition of specific
processes in body cells by restricting oxygen use in cell respiration,
including the heart and brain."  

The end conclusion of these comments is that death takes significantly
longer than one minute.  Even a person who has inhaled a large quantity
and is unconscious can be revived after several minutes with amyl nitrite
combined with mechanical breathing assistance (old fashioned artificial
respiration).  The only reason I address this at all is that there is a
misconception that hydrogen cyanide is some sort of instant death
substance, as in touch it and you're history, like some modern nerve
agents.  It's bad stuff, but it's not magic.

>Second, check the ottawa citizen and the ottawa sun for the past
>three years, there were two students who died from cyanide gassings and
>were printed in the paper. I don't have dates handy.

I don't have any way to check either of those publications for yesterday's
news, let alone the past two or three years.  However, unlike many in this
forum who insist on full pedigrees for anything they don't understand or
agree with, I'll take your word for this.  Having given that, would you
agree that this does not translate to evidence of several college students
being poisoned this way each year?  In other words, it is not what you
could call a common occurence.



-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


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Article: 23251 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CYANIDE GASSINGS
Date: 28 Mar 1995 09:16:12 -0500
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Bill Stuart writes:

>A few college students die every year from accidental cyanide
>inhalation. This happens in well ventilated rooms under fume hoods
(unless
>the students are really stupid) and it kills in less than a minute. The
>students die almost as soon as they realize what's happened.

Bill, that statement is a pure fabrication, not a shred of truth to it. 
Give one instance of cyanide gas poisoning of a college student in the
U.S.  Just one.  And it kills by oxygen deprivation, which takes quite a
bit longer than one minute.  If you want to offer up facts, fine, just
make sure they're facts.  This is silly.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


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Article: 23296 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: CYANIDE GASSINGS
In-Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com's message of 28 Mar 1995 09:16:12 -0500
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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 09:21:56 GMT
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
>Bill, that statement is a pure fabrication, not a shred of truth to it. 
>Give one instance of cyanide gas poisoning of a college student in the
>U.S.  Just one.  And it kills by oxygen deprivation, which takes quite a
>bit longer than one minute.  If you want to offer up facts, fine, just
>make sure they're facts.  This is silly.

Oxygen deprivation? In some indirect sense, yes, but hardly
suffocation as you're implying.  Cyanide chemically disrupts the
ability to use oxygen in the metabolic cycle. It's a deadly poison,
not a suffocant.

So when are you volunteering to take just one measly lungful?

I think we know who's being silly here.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


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Article: 23316 of alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: CYANIDE GASSINGS
In-Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com's message of 29 Mar 1995 16:47:16 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 04:46:24 GMT
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
>You describe in some detail exactly how the cyanide blocks the flow of
>oxygen into the body and then say that this is not oxygen deprivation.

Um, it blocks the utilization of oxygen in some critical metabolic
pathways.

Ya know, as someone who has some background in chemistry and
biochemistry (I mean me) let me tell you; you sound very silly.

>Death occurs because of a shortage of oxygen in the body. 

No, death occurs because any amount of oxygen in the body can not be
used in basic chemical reactions your body depends on for life.

There's no particular *shortage* of the element. What makes you think
that?

>A quote from their
>manual states, "Its toxic effect results from the inhibition of specific
>processes in body cells by restricting oxygen use in cell respiration,
>including the heart and brain."  

Yes, precisely.

The question is, do you understand that paragraph?

My impression is that you don't.

That says what I just said, and contradicts what you're
saying. There's no *shortage* (your word) of oxygen. It's simply
rendered useless, the cells' metabolic chemistry has been fatally
disrupted.

>The end conclusion of these comments is that death takes significantly
>longer than one minute.  Even a person who has inhaled a large quantity
>and is unconscious can be revived after several minutes with amyl nitrite
>combined with mechanical breathing assistance (old fashioned artificial
>respiration).  The only reason I address this at all is that there is a
>misconception that hydrogen cyanide is some sort of instant death
>substance, as in touch it and you're history, like some modern nerve
>agents.  It's bad stuff, but it's not magic.

Nothing is magic.

It's all a matter of context.

As per usual you make a rather irrelevant point.

If you fall down unconscious nearly instantly and only very specific
and heroic efforts will save you, then in the context of a Nazi gas
chamber I think it's safe to say that you're just about instantly
dead. For all intents and purposes.

It's hard to tell what point you are making, or why.

I believe your original point that began all this was that you didn't
believe 15 minutes exposure was sufficient to kill. Perhaps it was 5
minutes, whatever.

But if you're in the wholesale mass murder business all of this is a
rather academic point.

Sure, perhaps after 5 minutes exposure they are not clinically dead,
merely unconscious, comatose and slipping rapidly towards death.

And, sure, perhaps after 5 minutes they could, with heroic efforts, be
revived.

But no one is going to revive them, so they're dead, they're
unconscious, they need no more exposure, it's over.

I doubt very much the Nazis were concerned with some clinical
definition of death. Just so long as they could be tossed out like
sacks of potatoes and will surely be dead if not this instant soon
enough, and without reviving.

So you seem to be obsessed with some sort of fiction, that for some
reason you seem to want to assert that the Nazis or some other
observer wouldn't say these people were "dead" unless they were
clinically dead.

There's no reason to believe this, it's entirely irrelevant. In a
completely reasonable manner of speaking, they were dead.

Thus, you raise no interesting question. All it really comes down to
is the witness said they were dead in a few short minutes and you
contend that by some clinical definition you object to the use of the
word "dead" as not being technically correct.

It's a rather thin point to make.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD

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