From dbtgthomas@aol.com Fri Oct 20 10:40:10 PDT 1995
Article: 11749 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 19 Oct 1995 23:40:22 -0400
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Ted Frank wrote:

>DbtgThomas  wrote:
>>Interesting thing about whatever weapons the Davidians had is that it is
>>legal to own a machine gun in Texas (and several other states) as long
as
>>it is has a Treasury stamp issued proving that, guess what, you payed
>>taxes on the thing.  So BATF wasn't going after them for illegal weapons
>>even if the official description of those weapons was correct.  They
were
>>after unpaid taxes.
>
>That's an incorrect statement of the law that has been corrected on this
>newsgroup multiple times.
>
>Federal gun laws both outlaw certain types of weapons *and* require tax
>stamps. If you have an illegal gun without a tax stamp, you're violating
>both laws; if you have an illegal gun with a tax stamp, you're just 
>violating the one law, but it's still illegal.

Sorry, but machine guns just are not federally outlawed, unless by very
recent legislation.  They are controlled by taxation and resultant federal
registration.  The following quote is from The Ashes of Waco by Dick J.
Reavis, page 34.

***Fully automatic weapons-machine guns-may be lawfully purchased or made
in the United States, but only when their buyer or maker obtains a
clearance from local authorities, and pays a $200 per weapon registration
fee.  An ATF history explains the law this way:  "Rather than ban outright
the purchase of machine guns and sawed-off shotguns-the weapons of choice
for mobsters-Congress in 1934 simply imposed a tax on those weapons. 
Paying the tax required registering the weapon."  In 1993, more than
234,000 Americans owned machine guns under the terms set forth in the law.
    Since M-16s made from AR-15s are legal if properly registered, kits to
convert from the semi-automatics to automatic fire are also legal items of
commerce, as ostensible replacements for worn components.  Furthermore,
there is no federal or Texas statute against stockpiling arms;  anyone who
can legally buy one weapon can legally buy a hundred, or even a thousand
of them.***

Now, you might get rousted pretty hard if the local gendarmes bust you for
anything and find more than one gun, or an automatic weapon.  While what
they can legally do depends on what the local laws are, the rousting
depends on nothing but their attitude.  It is common to read news accounts
of police making lengthy disparaging comments about a perfectly legal set
of guns that someone arrested for a non-related charge was found to have.

But that is a local injustice which does not change the fact that the only
interest the ATF had or should have had was the fact that the taxes on any
automatic weapons had not been paid.  It is true that not paying the tax
may result in the weapon not being registered, at least to the knowledge
of the federal government.  But I do not believe the wording of the
statute explicitly makes non-registration the crime.  Not paying the tax
is the only way to violate that particular law.  In what other manner is
federal law broken by possessing an automatic weapon?  Please reference a
federal statute number which says explicitly that you cannot possess an
automatic weapon.  I am not challenging you out of some hidden knowledge,
I simply have never heard of such a law.  Please enlighten me.

I believe, by the way, that a good number of the 234,000 machine gun
owners will be found in the state of Texas.  There are even social clubs
connected with them.  If the weapon has been disabled so that it cannot
fire in the automatic mode, it is legal to buy almost anywhere.  You can
find magazine ads listing disabled .50-caliber machine guns, the genuine
items, for about $3,000 each.  I will state again that I do not pretend to
be either up to date or an authority on this issue.  Much of my knowledge
about it stems from a 4 or 5 years ago when I toyed with the idea of
buying a .50 as a curiosity piece.  My curiosity just didn't add up to
three grand.

As for the presence of machine guns, I regret to say that I am new to this
discussion and did not see the PBS show referenced.  Be that as it may,
the following quote is from page 293 of Mr. Reavis' book regarding the
trial of several of the surviving Davidians:

***But if the prosecution had difficulty in making much of its case, on
one issue the trial was easy going all the way.  More than a week of the
court's time was consumed by the introduction of weapons, carted to an
evidence table in wooden and cardboard boxes, each gun wrapped in a
plastic bag.  Investigators had found some 300 guns in and around Mt.
Carmel, a few still in firing order.  In addition, they found dummy
grenades, parts of exploded grenades, and the remnants of what were
alleged to have been a half-million rounds of ammunition, before they
"cooked off" during the fire;  almost all of this weaponry, the defense
argued, had been bought for resale.  The prosecution's heaps of evidence
also included what appeared to be illegal, homemade silencers for rifles,
and forty-eight semi-automatic rifles that had been converted to automatic
fire.  The armory did not, however, contain any .50-caliber machine guns,
as even a correspondent for National Public Radio had reported from the
trial.***

I thank you for your comments on the guns, but frankly don't understand
your statements about Koresh being a liar.  If lying is sufficient reason
to burn someone to death, most of us are in for a pretty horrible
departure.  And what justification ever existed on this earth for burning
children?  Our Rambo federal government is the major danger here, but
killing kids is as morally repugnant as it gets.  The most impassioned
argument I've yet had thrown at me was from a guy who was absolutely
adamant that we could not, should not, never ever allow these people or
any other group of people to diss the federal government and be allowed to
get away with it even if surrounded.  No stand-offs should be permitted,
in other words, because that is a form of giving in to them.  If they spit
at you, then off the fuckers, right?  I don't want to live that way.  Do
you?

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Fri Oct 20 10:40:11 PDT 1995
Article: 11757 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 20 Oct 1995 01:42:01 -0400
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In a reply to comments about automatic weapons laws, or lack of them,
quotes were offered from a book called The Ashes of Waco, written by a
Texas investigative reporter (my description) named Dick Reavis who lives
in Dallas, near the scene of the subject.  Picked it up in the airport
there and haven't read it all yet, only pulled it out again after
discovering this discussion going on.  The opening lines inside the dust
jacket express some things pretty well.

***The scene outside Waco, Texas, on February 28, 1993--when dozens of
federal law enforcement agents in full combat gear stormed the Branch
Davidian compound--could have been cast in England before the Quakers and
Pilgrims fled to America, or in the colonies at Salem, or in the new
Republic during the nineteenth century, when descendants of the Quakers
and Pilgrims turned their suspicions on the early Mormons.  The elements
that these very American crusades had in common were, on one hand, a group
of people with beliefs incomprehensible to the majority of the population,
and on the other, police agencies whose operatives could not distinguish
custom from law, idiosyncrasy from threat.  The line between churches,
which Americans believe should be protected from government interference,
and cults, which most Americans hold in disdain, has nothing to do with
the Constitution--the first amendment in theory shields both--and
everything to do with the prejudices of a nation that has grown fearful of
the diversity that made it unique.  The residents of Mt. Carmel were
instantly convicted of sin and lawbreaking by the kind of gossip that
unites remote hamlets and electronic villages alike.***

(When typing that last sentence, I unconsciously substituted vigilantes
for villages.  That was probably in honor of the ugly thing passing for a
discussion which makes up the bulk of alt.revisionism.)

My opinion on the source of the national fear he describes is that it is
related to the disintegrating moral structure in this country, which
almost everyone can sense, but most do not address on a conscious level. 
Something is wrong, very wrong, and we need scapegoats.  Remember the
flood of preschool child-molestation charges which started ten or so years
ago?  And their attendant fantasy that a nation-wide, well coordinated,
incredibly clandestine group of thousands of demon worshippers were
spiriting thousands of children daily away to underground locations to
participate in unspeakable rites.  Sounds like Salem, adjusted for current
awareness of geography and transport speed.  The colony at Salem was in
dire straits at the time this same aberration sprang from them to feed on
innocent blood.  Food was low, disease rates high, weather
life-threatening, and things in general were pretty grim.  Undernourished,
unhygenic, freezing, miserable, frightened and bored.  Time to blame
something for the collective plight so that attentions can be taken off
the insoluble problems for a while, and by something that offers the false
hope of salvation to boot.

Their sense of order was defeated by physical conditions.  What's
happening to ours?  A combination of multicultural fetishism and a hip
attitude that morals are for suckers and idealists has shredded our moral
fabric beyond any ability to cover the majority of this large,
self-proclaimed United society.  And morals aren't grounded in some
absolute that can simply be rediscovered by a panel of wise men and
reinstated.  Morals are products of cultures.  They are evolved sets of
rules concocted by the strong to keep the weak in sufficient order to
permit large groups to live together without self-destructing.  They are
gradually accepted without question by the majority over a period of many
years.  Now, in deference to splinter groups driven far more by economic
aims than any others, and in obiesance to a disdain for authority taken to
ludicrous extreme, we have allowed our collective morals to disintegrate
without any plan for replacing them.  The most vital thing in present
daily life is not to diss somebody, lest you be castigated as unfeeling
toward one for noting the loss to many.  Or perhaps just killed, depending
on the level of insult taken by the dissed.  The result of this
progression is the same in all societies.  Quoting (approximately) one of
Mr. Helprin's characters, "When writing on the city walls becomes violent
and absurd, the city becomes violent and absurd."  Ever increasing chaos,
but out of which, per the old Persian lover, stars are born.  The old
begets the new.

Correct this?  Correct what?  And how if one knew?  The collective
cognitive abilities of our entire species can't predict the weather three
days in advance, and we would control the future?  Try it and you'll get
lost in time.  An aware person does well in these situations to ride the
avalanche with as much harmony as they can, participate, observe, and
point out features along the way, especially the sublimely ridiculous. 
Which brings us back to Waco.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Tue Oct 24 08:14:42 PDT 1995
Article: 12198 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 23 Oct 1995 05:31:28 -0400
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David Veal wrote:

>       Last I heard the Feds had lost a court case on this subject (US v.

>Rock-Island Armory) and the BATF had stated that since they could no 
>longer prosocute people for failing to pay the NFA tax they won't accept 
>they'll prosocute people for failing to pay the excise tax they won't
accept.

Thanks for clarifying the status of machine gun (Type 3 weapon) ownership.
 It's likely that the majority of people indeed think that they are
completely illegal, when, as you so eloquently outline, they've only been
saddled with Catch 22.

>       Gives you a warm fuzzy feeling about the government, doesn't it?

Indeed.  Not as warm as the one the Davidians got, thank God.  That took
warm fuzzy to a new level.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Tue Oct 24 08:14:43 PDT 1995
Article: 12205 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 23 Oct 1995 06:58:06 -0400
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This may be a duplicate message.

Voltaire wrote (and my humblest apologies to the real one):

>Jesus of Waco thanks you for your support in his attempts at gun
>running, child molesting and abusing and the killing of law
>enforcement officers. Unfortunately JOK can not thank you personally.
>He is , at the present time, attempting to explain all his bullshit to
>the deity he claims to represent. Lifes a bitch and then you rape a 10
>year old.
>
>You must really be hard up for heros.
>
>    Voltaire

Thanks for the input, I'll respond to each of the points you're
ricocheting off.

(1)  Your first line parrots an unfounded charge that had a lot to do with
the deaths, and that is that Koresh represented himself as Jesus.  I don't
know his earlier background, but his final statement rambles on at great
length about apocalyptic scripture and at no time does he come even close
to this.  This "he says he's Jesus" thing is often brought up in the
initial villification of oddball religious leaders.  It was used against
old Bagwhan in Oregon among others, and it wasn't true there either.  But
aside from that, what if it were true? So what?  Where's the offense in
it, let alone criminality?  Oh, you can't stand that level of arrogance,
eh?  Just love to see the cocky bastard get taken down.

(2)  Much ado about child molesting, not a shred of proof presented at any
time.  No charges.  Nothing but fuel for the cleansing fire to send these
heretics to hell.  And again, if it were true, what part of this travesty
does it justify?

(3)  They weren't gun running.  All that they had bought they still had. 
It's a pretty good bet that they were doing something which is a very
common activity in Texas, and that is modifying semi-automatic weapons for
full automatic operation.  At some point that would indeed become a crime,
one rating a fine and maybe a few months in jail.  Not burning.

(4)  Hard up for heroes?  Well, yes.  Aren't we all?  We live in a nation
of sheep and wolves and there are damned few people at any level of
leadership worth admiring, including David Koresh.  I don't wish to offend
anyone, but personally I think all holy-rollers have a condition that Jung
might describe as missing a piece of their psychological pie - an empty
energy center that leaves them quite a bit out of balance.  Not much
different than any other kind of addict.  You can take your dope through
your mouth, your nose or your ears, it all works out the same.

(5)  It appears to me that the law enforcement officers who were killed
were in the act of attempting to kill people who then returned the fire. 
Rather like Ruby Ridge.

My comments were not meant to elevate Koresh in any way, and I don't
believe they do if you read them without preconception.  The point I'm
trying to make is that he was an ordinary hardcore fundamentalist splinter
group leader whose message on examination should be cause for bemusement,
not apprehension, paranoia and deadly aggression.  His apparent minor
crimes should have been handled as just that.  I think the nation started
getting inured to this jackbooted shit by law enforcement when TV began
showing the Real Rambos Thursday nights at seven.  That stuff is
appalling.  You got a few losers in a filthy apartment zonking out on
crack, and here come our preservers of order acting in a way that makes
Gestapo tactics look positively polite.  Some day this country may grow
up.  When and if it does, we'll let the people who want to kill themselves
with a drug do so without interference or undue expense, and limit our
crime stopping activities to cases of physical aggression and theft.

I don't know if this is posting to the discussion group also, so I may
wind up sending it twice.  Thanks again for the impetus.  Can't talk if
somebody doesn't talk back.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Tue Oct 24 08:14:44 PDT 1995
Article: 12307 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.oj-simpson,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.african.american,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Rodney King deserved it
Date: 23 Oct 1995 16:12:59 -0400
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>If anybody wants to get outraged, get outraged over Latasha Harlins. 
>Remember her?  The little girl that got shot in the back of the head,
>and her killer got six months?  Anybody remember Latasha?

I remember her.  The not so little girl who hit the smaller woman in the
head, finally knocking her to the ground behind the register.  I also
remember seeing the videotape as she got back to her feet with the gun in
her hands.  It fired as she staggered forward slightly and the butt hit
the counter, slightly above her waist level and totally unaimed.  Her
startled flinch as it went off was obvious.  It went off because the gun
had been set for a hair trigger.

It is indeed a shame that the young girl was killed, but one has to
conclude that she sure was playing with fire.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Tue Oct 24 08:14:45 PDT 1995
Article: 12332 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.oj-simpson,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.african.american,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Rodney King deserved it
Date: 23 Oct 1995 16:11:42 -0400
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>Rodney was on the ground.  Rodney was subdued.  He posed no threat.
>If Rodney had been white, they'd put the handcuffs on him at that
>point and put him in a car.  Instead they chose to beat him.

Everything about the description above is false.  If there had only been
one or two officers on hand, there's a good chance the out of control
bastard would have been shot, regardless of his race.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Tue Oct 24 08:14:46 PDT 1995
Article: 12345 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics,white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.black,alt.revisionism,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Report from the Million Man March
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I travel a lot and from the comments of the past week I'd say that the
level of hostility to the event is a lot lower than you think.  It was a
peaceful gathering for a good cause.

The villification of Farrakhan, while he is undoubtedly not the favorite
of many whites, is primarily a creature of the liberal, leg-warmer
wearing, panty-sniffing media, which has a mindset similar to many
participants in alt.revisionism.  Say something they don't like and you're
first tagged with the most scurrilous labels they can throw at you, then
dismissed as someone who has nothing worthwhile to say and all because
they once disagreed with you.  Bigotry is not a synonym for hatred, or
racism or any other -ism.   Bigotry is intolerance of another's views, and
intolerance is not a passive stance.  The intolerance of bigotry doesn't
just object to someone else's opinions or content itself with voicing the
contrary, it seeks to to silence or socially destroy people whose opinions
offend by all out attack, be it verbal, physical, or through subtler means
such as shunning.  Farrakhan may arguably be described as prejudiced, but
he is not acting the role of a bigot, nor that other ludicrous label, of a
"hater".  Of course it's all right to hate haters with all your heart and
soul, isn't it?  There's good hate and bad hate isn't there?  Or as one
fool in this forum described it, "virile, healthy hate."  And whereas I am
simply righteously angry, your anger is hate.  Hell, even your negative
opinions are hate if I happen to disagree with them.  Balls.  All hate is
self defeating, for the originator, the target and the group.  But, I
digress.  Or do I? 

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Tue Oct 24 08:14:46 PDT 1995
Article: 12404 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 24 Oct 1995 04:21:36 -0400
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>In this country, if a judge issues a warrant, you have a legal 
>responsibility to answer that warrant.  If you do not answer it, 
>your a criminal! Now, you can make all the argument you want about 
>what the feds did wrong, ITS IRRELEVANT!!!!!! 
>
>When the Davidians remained in the compound, in violation of the 
>WARRANT, that justifies the action taken by the ATF.  
>
>Now if you want to say that that action was harsh, stupid, heavy 
>handed, or whatever, fine! We have no quarrel, but if your saying 
>that a warrant no longer holds the force of law, FOR WHATEVER REASON, 
>then we are now in a state of anarchy. 

As the old French policeman said about pursuing a man for over a decade
for stealing a loaf of bread, "The law is the law is the law."

I rather prefer Mr. Bumble's observation -- Then, Sir, the law is a ass!

Of course a warrant holds the force of law, even a warrant as flawed,
contrived and fraudulent as the one they had at Waco.  But warrants of
greater import than that one routinely sit in stacks in our official
offices because there are more important things to do and everybody knows
it.  The point about this case was and is the use of unreasonable force,
deadly force far out of proportion to the alleged offenses.  That's very
wrong.  You don't want your government to ever get in the habit of doing
that kind of crap regularly.  Or at all.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Oct 25 22:11:03 PDT 1995
Article: 12443 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 24 Oct 1995 11:58:37 -0400
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Errol wrote:

>I'm merely asking you a question. You claim X for Howell, I claim Y.
> I say the fact that he could not come out proves my point that he was
> deluded and not a nice guy to boot - you say irrelevant and try to
> focus on that without saying why not.

I think the point is that his being deluded or not or nice or not has not
a thing to do with the main subject at hand, egregious governmental excess
resulting in the needless death of scores of people, including innocent
children.  Focus on that.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Oct 25 22:11:04 PDT 1995
Article: 12444 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
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Errol wrote:

>but wait, mabye it was an AP
> round - straight and true, that took most of the DOOR with it on
> exit.

You could be on to something.  There were two steel doors at the entrance,
and at the Davidian's trial the government outlined a scenario that
conflicted with that of the defense about who fired what first and when. 
The patterns of bullet holes in the right door would have resolved the
dispute.  Trouble was, the left door was still there (somewhat the worse
for being run over by a tank, although intact) but the right door was not
to be found.  The official explanation?  It must have melted in the
intense heat.  Yeah.  Lot of melted gray matter around too, there and
here.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Oct 25 22:11:04 PDT 1995
Article: 12445 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
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Michael K. Richmann wrote:

>jose  wrote:
>>I think you are crazy.  
>>
>
>And who might that person be?  Learn to quote.

It's me.  I thought I heard a Spanish accent in the mutterings in the
bushes outside my windows at night.  Now at least I can cross paranoia off
my list.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Oct 25 22:11:05 PDT 1995
Article: 12520 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics,white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.black,alt.revisionism,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Report from the Million Man March
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Mark Van Alstine writes:

>Are you suggesting the the white supremicists cum neo-Nazis are members
of
>the "liberal, leg-warmer wearing, [and] panty-sniffing [M]edia?"

No.

>Or instead, are you saying that because the Media has (rightly) called
>Farrakhan on the carpet for his antisemitc and racist statements that you
>feel a need to defend him (and those statements) with purile rhetoric? 

The word is -puerile- and the answer is again no.

>And when the statements are antisemitic and racist in content, being
>labled as an antisemitic and a racist is not appropriate? What then _is_
>the appropriate label for those who make antisemitic and a racist
>statements, in your opinion? 

As I fairly clearly indicated, those and other labels are thrown about far
too easily.  People are using elephant guns to hunt mosquitos.  In my
opinion.

>It is rather telling that you seem to view the general intolerance to
such
>_bigoted_ statements made by Farrakhan as bigotry in itself. Do you make
>it a practise to hold such moral double standards? 

There's no double standard here, and you apparently could benefit from a
trip to the dictionary.  A bigoted statement would be a call to silence
the statements of another, or to take actions which would accomplish that.
 Bigotry is the intolerance of other viewpoints.  Not the dislike of them,
or speaking out in opposition to them, but intolerance of the view and its
holder.  I have no use for this.  Regardless of how repugnant I feel your
beliefs and statements to be, you by God have the right to hold them and
speak out about them.  So does everyone.

>I see. If one does not condone Farrakhan's bigotry then one is a bigot?
>You _do_, I hope, realize how craven this sounds?

This is where bigots often miss the point.  Tolerating someone's views is
not the same as condoning them.  Zealots and bigots will disagree mightily
with that, but it's the simple truth.  I think you lie when you say -I
hope-, but, no, I don't see the craven connection.

>When Farrakhan publicly exhorts his prejudices using infalmmatory
>antisemitic and racists diatribes he most certainly _can_ be called a
>bigot (i.e. one who holds blindly and intolerantly to a particular creed,
>opinion, etc.). And rightly so.

i.e. one's holding to a creed has nothing to do with bigotry.  Bigotry is
action directed toward the views (or even existence) of others.  It's a
common distortion of the language which has come about in the mad rush to
find socially acceptable invective that doesn't depend on the old
Anglo-Saxon multi-syllabic classics.  Which of course aren't socially
acceptable.

>> Of course it's all right to hate haters with all your heart and
>> soul, isn't it?  There's good hate and bad hate isn't there?  
>
>Is _this_ how you rationalize Farrakhan's antisemitism and racism? By
>playing semantics? How do you then justify _your_ obvious _hate_ of those
>that don't subscribe to, nor wish to tolerate, Farrakhan's demogoguery? I
>suppose you feel _your_ hate is "virile, healthy hate?" The more a fool
>you are then not to understand the difference. 

I don't agree with Farrakhan or you, and I don't hate either of you, nor
anyone else that I can think of at the moment.  Does this mean that I'm a
navel-contemplating holier than everybody goody two shoes?  No.  I just
recognized the futility and waste of miring yourself in that self
destructive mode called hate some years ago and put it behind me like the
bad habit it is.  Farrakhan is a zealot.  You try to be, though I'm not
sure what your focus is, nor does it matter.  No hate is "virile, healthy
hate."  Didn't I describe that stance as ridiculous, or some such, in my
earlier post?  What do I have to say to get it across.  How about, "Fuck
hate", to fall back on a colloquialism most people can relate to.  But
hate hate?  Nah.  Big waste of time.  Tolerate Farrakhan?  Absolutely. 
And you.  And anyone else who wishes to express their opinions.  I don't
have the right to silence them, you don't have the right to silence them,
and in fact no one does.  If you want to give counterpoints to his
arguments, fine.  That's what debate is about.  People learn things that
way.  But if your interest is in puerile name calling and trying to
silence anyone, I'm not interested.

>More like you've made a complete ass of yourself. And rightly so.

Nothing is ever complete.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Oct 25 22:11:06 PDT 1995
Article: 12530 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.fan.oj-simpson,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.african.american,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Rodney King deserved it
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Johnson writes:
>Nobody hit the ground.  Latasha was called a thief, as she tried to pay
>with the money in her hand; 
>she slapped the woman, who then bent over,
>got her gun, stood up, and fired 

Nah.  I watched the film.  Several times.  The woman was hit more than
once, knocked down, got up with a gun in her hand and it went off at
counter level, unaimed, as she lurched forward.  A great many liquor store
owners keep guns behind the counter.  That's why I wouldn't screw with one
of them.  

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job.
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Oct 25 22:11:07 PDT 1995
Article: 12584 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
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Errol writes:

>And another thing. Let me see... The guy on the corner goes
> quietly nuts. He is armed to the teeth. He has several woman
> and children staying with him.  The police and other interested
> parties decide to investigate.

Decide to investigate, eh?  Based on what?  Quiet nuts?  That's not only
not illegal, it encompasses about 10% of the population.  Armed to the
teeth?  Also legal, and also common.  Several women and children staying
with him?  Family and friends are illicit activities?  The effrontery of
it all!  This evil crap has got to stop.  And it will, thanks partly to
"other interested parties" who can't mind their own goddamned business
because they think someone else may either be having fun or violating
their personal moral code.

>They arrive, he opens up on them
 >and they then decide to go away because their warrant was invalid,
> and because they think he is not a danger to others.
 >Have I got that scenario right?

No.  It went like this.

They arrive, without even bothering to bring the invalid warrant, and open
up on them (note them, not him, even though they ostensibly came to
protect them).  Them return fire to defend their lives.  Some of them and
some of the police are killed.  Because they now have positive bleeding
proof to replace their initial baseless innuendo that he is a danger to
others, they do not go away.  They surround the place, make absolute
Keystone Kop asses of themselves and our governmental image by playing
Tibetan chants and screaming rabbits for several weeks, making the
observing press stay back two miles a la Grenada, then conclude the sorry
affair by burning the women and children alive and leveling the place with
tanks.  Great example of that old law enforcement maxim that if you just
off the sonofabitch, you save the taxpayers a lot of time and money.

This was the reality.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job.
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Oct 25 22:37:55 PDT 1995
Article: 5238 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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Newsgroups: alt.fan.oj-simpson,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.african.american,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Rodney King deserved it
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>If anybody wants to get outraged, get outraged over Latasha Harlins. 
>Remember her?  The little girl that got shot in the back of the head,
>and her killer got six months?  Anybody remember Latasha?

I remember her.  The not so little girl who hit the smaller woman in the
head, finally knocking her to the ground behind the register.  I also
remember seeing the videotape as she got back to her feet with the gun in
her hands.  It fired as she staggered forward slightly and the butt hit
the counter, slightly above her waist level and totally unaimed.  Her
startled flinch as it went off was obvious.  It went off because the gun
had been set for a hair trigger.

It is indeed a shame that the young girl was killed, but one has to
conclude that she sure was playing with fire.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Oct 25 22:37:56 PDT 1995
Article: 5253 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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Newsgroups: alt.fan.oj-simpson,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.african.american,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Rodney King deserved it
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>Rodney was on the ground.  Rodney was subdued.  He posed no threat.
>If Rodney had been white, they'd put the handcuffs on him at that
>point and put him in a car.  Instead they chose to beat him.

Everything about the description above is false.  If there had only been
one or two officers on hand, there's a good chance the out of control
bastard would have been shot, regardless of his race.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Oct 25 22:37:57 PDT 1995
Article: 5270 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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Subject: Re: Report from the Million Man March
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I travel a lot and from the comments of the past week I'd say that the
level of hostility to the event is a lot lower than you think.  It was a
peaceful gathering for a good cause.

The villification of Farrakhan, while he is undoubtedly not the favorite
of many whites, is primarily a creature of the liberal, leg-warmer
wearing, panty-sniffing media, which has a mindset similar to many
participants in alt.revisionism.  Say something they don't like and you're
first tagged with the most scurrilous labels they can throw at you, then
dismissed as someone who has nothing worthwhile to say and all because
they once disagreed with you.  Bigotry is not a synonym for hatred, or
racism or any other -ism.   Bigotry is intolerance of another's views, and
intolerance is not a passive stance.  The intolerance of bigotry doesn't
just object to someone else's opinions or content itself with voicing the
contrary, it seeks to to silence or socially destroy people whose opinions
offend by all out attack, be it verbal, physical, or through subtler means
such as shunning.  Farrakhan may arguably be described as prejudiced, but
he is not acting the role of a bigot, nor that other ludicrous label, of a
"hater".  Of course it's all right to hate haters with all your heart and
soul, isn't it?  There's good hate and bad hate isn't there?  Or as one
fool in this forum described it, "virile, healthy hate."  And whereas I am
simply righteously angry, your anger is hate.  Hell, even your negative
opinions are hate if I happen to disagree with them.  Balls.  All hate is
self defeating, for the originator, the target and the group.  But, I
digress.  Or do I? 

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Oct 25 22:39:09 PDT 1995
Article: 7302 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.oj-simpson,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.african.american,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Rodney King deserved it
Date: 23 Oct 1995 16:12:59 -0400
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>If anybody wants to get outraged, get outraged over Latasha Harlins. 
>Remember her?  The little girl that got shot in the back of the head,
>and her killer got six months?  Anybody remember Latasha?

I remember her.  The not so little girl who hit the smaller woman in the
head, finally knocking her to the ground behind the register.  I also
remember seeing the videotape as she got back to her feet with the gun in
her hands.  It fired as she staggered forward slightly and the butt hit
the counter, slightly above her waist level and totally unaimed.  Her
startled flinch as it went off was obvious.  It went off because the gun
had been set for a hair trigger.

It is indeed a shame that the young girl was killed, but one has to
conclude that she sure was playing with fire.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Oct 25 22:39:10 PDT 1995
Article: 7316 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.oj-simpson,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.african.american,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Rodney King deserved it
Date: 23 Oct 1995 16:11:42 -0400
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>Rodney was on the ground.  Rodney was subdued.  He posed no threat.
>If Rodney had been white, they'd put the handcuffs on him at that
>point and put him in a car.  Instead they chose to beat him.

Everything about the description above is false.  If there had only been
one or two officers on hand, there's a good chance the out of control
bastard would have been shot, regardless of his race.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by
love-this is the eternal law." - The Pali Canon 1:5


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Oct 30 15:49:30 PST 1995
Article: 12782 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 26 Oct 1995 17:04:52 -0400
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Errol wrote:

>Why on earth did they wait so long before, as you put it,
> just offing the place? Why didn't they just take the place out?

Because they weren't so much evil as stupid and misguided.  Sincere, but
extremely misguided.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job.
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Oct 30 15:49:31 PST 1995
Article: 12809 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Can't get there from here (was: racist filth)
Date: 26 Oct 1995 22:39:55 -0400
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Jeff Inman writes:

>>(G. McFee)How many links does your website have to the Nizkor Project,
Greg?
>
>
>In the context of the lengths people have been going to in this thread
>to identify who is and who isn't evil, this bit about web connectivity
>gives me pause.  Are we going to start evaluating people's moral worth
>by the places we can get to from their web page?  Are we to suppose
>that there is some battle whereby the GOOD people are attempting to
>make the web into a transitive closure of GOOD sites, while evil
>people keep adding subtle and devious links to nefarious sites that
>corrupt any GOOD person who accidentally clicks the wrong icon?  When
>the GOOD-police check your web connectivity, how many links do they
>follow?

As many as it takes, of course.

In the immortal words of Bo Diddley's "Hey Man!" -- I ain't got nothin' to
do with this, but I see the fella's right!  Right on, too.

The search, excuse me, the LUST, for evil knows no bounds.  You search
'til you find some, that's all.  And you just know it's there, elsewise
you might have to suspect yourself of being a presumptive, officious,
sanctimonious, judgmental, paranoid, self-righteous nabob.  And that can't
be true.  Not for a charter member of the Goodness Youth Movement, charged
with filtering the moral inputs to impressionable college-age minds.  Five
or six years does mature one so, you know.  Yesterday's impressionable
twit is today's all-knowing same.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job.
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Oct 30 15:49:32 PST 1995
Article: 12813 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
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Errol writes:

>>You got a few losers in a filthy apartment zonking out on
>>crack, and here come our preservers of order acting in a way that
>>makes
>>Gestapo tactics look positively polite. 
>>
> Reality check: Gestapo were known to feed prisoners to their dogs.
>                Gestapo put out eyes and pulled out teeth.
>                Gestapo did not mess around like this.
>                Gestapo and the Einsatz gruppe would not have even
>                attempted to negotiate. They would simply have taken
>                the whole place out on the turn. Remember Lidice.
>
> Lets try to keep some perspective...

You know, you're right, at least to a point.  I've been wallowing in the
accusative mire that is alt.revisionism for too long and it's sticking to
me.  My intent was to make a comparison with the relative impact of the
old F word.  Years of Hollywood conditioning reinforced by recent
experience led to my comparison.  I did only say Gestapo, not Einsatz
gruppe, but on reflection, they started out like the former and finished
up like the latter, regardless of how tasteless the comparison.   A
watered down imitation, to be sure, but the pattern is there.  I mean, you
can talk about nasty stuff like pulling teeth, but in the final analysis
it doesn't get much worse than hot lead coming at you finished up with
being roasted alive.  Hell, I take back everything I just said!  Just
kidding.

Would have replied to your post sooner, but there's something screwy about
how the listings are coming through on AOL.  Tonight, the 100 or so latest
posts are gone, and replaced by a dozen old ones I never saw, including
this one.  Thanks much for your comments.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job.
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Oct 30 15:49:32 PST 1995
Article: 12951 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Harry Mazal's decent and respectable people
Date: 27 Oct 1995 22:19:23 -0400
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No he isn't.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Oct 30 15:49:33 PST 1995
Article: 12963 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 28 Oct 1995 00:24:52 -0400
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There have been a number of conflicting descriptions of, and for that
matter doubts about, gunshot wounds inflicted by ATF agents on David
Koresh.  The following excerpts are from a source I've previously
mentioned, The Ashes of Waco, by Dick J. Reavis.  Reavis, although quite
critical of the government in this affair, is also no fan of Koresh as you
will see from some of his comments.  The book is well indexed, and I have
included every segment listed under - Koresh, David (Vernon Wayne Howell),
wounds of, except for a brief recounting of how his followers blamed his
injuries on their own shortcomings.


***********

p.24 -- But if David Koresh felt any resentment about the way he was
raised, it showed only when he spoke of the past.  He wept when his
maternal grandfather died in the early eighties, and late in the decade,
his mother, stepdad, and half brother were guests at for months on end at
Mt. Carmel.  After he was wounded in the February 28 raid, thinking that
he was dying, David Koresh picked up the telephone.  "Hello, Mamma.  It't
your boy," he told her answering machine.  "They shot me and I'm dying,
alright?  But I'll be back real soon, okay?  I'm sorry you didn't learn
the Seals, but I'll be merciful, okay?  I'll see y'all in the skies."

p.143 to 149 -- A three-tiered myth has arisen from the events that
happened inside Mt. Carmel's front doors on February 28.  The facts behind
the myths are known only to two men, Jaime Castillo, twenty-four, and Brad
Branch, thirty-four, who were standing at the front door when David Koresh
hailed the raiders.  Branch has not given a full account of what happened
at that door.  And some of Castillo's recollections contrast with the
facts of record.
     The notes of an interview that Castillo granted to Texas Ranter
Gerardo de los Santos just hours after he emerged from the April 19 blaze
indicate that David Koresh was wounded while standing at the front door. 
"Castillo said that when they go to the front door, Howell opened the door
and yelled out, 'Wait a minute.  There's women and children in here,'" the
de los Santos report says.  "Then all of a sudden shots were fired at the
front door where he believes Howell was shot."  Other survivors, who were
not present at the door, give similar reports, based on what they were
told after the event.
     Part One of the Myth of the Doors says that David Koresh received his
wounds -- or at least one of them -- from the blast of gunfire that came
through the front door.
     Part Two of the myth says that a child was killed at the door.  The
tale was first told by Koresh while responding to questions asked during
an interview on Dallas radio station KRLD on February 28, shortly after
the attack.  Station executive Charlie Seraphin was on the other end of
the line:

SERAPHIN  Who, who died?

KORESH  Two year old baby, my girl.

     David French of CNN apparently followed Seraphi's line, recording a
second confirmation of the death.

FRENCH  Is it true, David, that one of the children, a two year-old, is
dead?

KORESH  Yeah, that's true.

     (Two more paragraphs about the children, concluding with the
observation that survivor testimony, including that of surviving children,
cast doubt on whether a child was killed at the door.)

     Part Three of the myth tells of the fate of Perry Jones, whom the
survivors say was one of the four adults who was standing at the door when
the fateful shots came.  Jaime Castillo says that "When I approached the
front door, David was in between our dorrway exchanging words with what
later turned out to be the ATF.  Perry was right behind him, kind of
peeking around David to see who was outside.  By the time I got to the
front door, I heard David say, 'Wait a minute!X  We got women and children
in here!  Let's talk!'  Then I heard the first gunshot outside, and a few
seconds later I heard Perry yelling, 'David, I've been shot!'.....I saw
him holding his side by his ribs.  Apparently, when he was leaving the
front door [going] away from it, he got hit again on his leg by his thigh.
 The last time I saw him.....I think Clive [Doyle] was trying to help
him..."
     Almost all of Mt. Carmel's residents report that they heard Jones
screaming, "I'm hit!  I've been shot."  One of them told the FBI that he'd
been awakened by the shouts.  After hollering and groaning for more than
an hour, the survivors say, Perry Jones died.  But it appears that none of
these things actually happened, unless the evidence that places these
claims in doubt has been falsified.
     Kathryn Schroeder, in a formal statement upon which much of the
government's conspiracy case against her peers was based, stated:  "I was
told that David Koresh and Peter Hipsman ahd both been hit in the tower at
the same window."  But neither she nor anyone else implicated or credited
helicopters in the wounding of Koresh;  he was in the foyer area, far from
the tower, when the helicopters passed.
     Koresh told a version of the tower/window story to defense attorneys
DeGuerin and Zimmerman, and it jibed with remarks that the Waco Messiah
made to the FBI.  In one of his telephone chats with negotiators, he said,
".....I went to see what was going on.....I was just walking around seeing
what was going on.  And when, when I went up to one place.....you know, I
looked out the window.  Some rounds came up and that's, that's when they
hit me....."
     But several days later, Koresh gave a different version to the G-Men.
 "That agent shot me," Koresh said, ".....the only reason why he.....shot
me was because I was going to say something to him, and he wasn't fired
upon."  According to this account, Koresh was trying to offer peace to the
agent -- who could not have been within earshot if Koresh was standing on
the tower's top floor.  The accounts that Koresh gave seemed to discredit
both stories:  that he was shot at the door or in the residential tower. 

(The chapter goes on to quote conflicting accounts about the fate of the
wounded, and to give Koresh's eventual denial that a child was killed or
that it was even said that a child was killed.  The author's observation
of all this is given in the next two paragraphs.)

     But if the coroner's report on the corpse of Perry Jones can be
believed, the Myth of the Door suggests that Koresh and his closest
associates lied about the cause of Jone's death.  **(He had a bullet wound
in the top of his mouth, fired at close range.)**  Like the masterminds of
the ATF raid, they believed that telling the truth was sometimes a matter
of convenience.
     The difference between the Mt. Carmelites and the ATF fabricators was
that they could not call upon the interests of national security or public
safety as a pretext for their falsifications.  They had to devise a
biblical rationale, and they did.  It was one of their more imaginative
works of scriptural craftsmanship.

p.154-155 -- The carnage that the ATF raiders suffered on Mt. Carmel's
roof and second level roof might have occurred even had the raid gone
according to plan.  The rooftop raiders did not intend to give the
residents a way to aquiesce, by ordering them to surrender.  The teams led
by Buford and King had no direct radio communication with the other raid
teams, and could not have seen if, for example, Koresh had invited the
others inside for coffee and a chat.  The absence of any plan for a
peaceful rooftop entry was revealed during the San Antonio trial, when
defense attorney Dan Cogdell questioned Special Agent King.

COGDELL    Did anyone on the roof teams call out, "Police!"  "Search
warrant!" or "Lie down, ATF!"?

KING     No.

COGDELL     Well then, if David Koresh had welcomed the front door team
that wouldn't have changed anything about your mission and tactics?  You
still would have thrown in flash-bang grenades and completed your dynamic
entry?

KING     That is correct.

     While the armory raiders were making their withdrawal, the death toll
rose.  The New Orleans team member whose job had been to provide cover
fire from the ground, Robert J. "Rob" Williams, twenty-six, stood up from
behind the discarded safe where he'd taken refuge.  A bullet struck him. 
"His head jerked back and he slumped to the ground on his back, face up,"
eyewitness agent Chris Mayfield says.  A third raider was now dead, his
35mm camera put out of action along with his gun.
     Down in the gymnasium, another raid team took cover behind furniture
stored there, waiting to rendezvous with the roof-entry comrades who would
never join them.  The architecture of the big room was foreboding, almost
more than they could keep under surveillance.  Doors at both ends and
windows along the walls gave hostile parties openings to enter, and a
hallway hung above them, enclosed by paneling.  It ran down the middle of
the ceiling along the "west-east" orientation of the gym.  The hallway
came from the second story of the front of the building, through the roof
of the chapel, between the armory and its twin bedroom, and out to the
"east" end of the gymnasium, where it looked onto a bay window.
     The gunfire had stopped and the agents had heard shouts of "cease
fire" from within Mt. Carmel before an armed male figure appeared in the
hallway suspended above them, or -- nobody has proven details -- in the
hallway or rooms above the chapel.  The figure fired, and they returned
fire, the agents say, though their target would survive, seriously
wounded, to deny using his weapon.  One of the bullets that struck the
figure "spun me all the way around.....It's like a 250 pound man kicking
you in the side," he would recall.  His body bore two wounds, perhaps from
the same bullet.  One bullet grazed his right wrist.  It furrowed the skin
and severed the nerve to his thumb.  The more serious wound was low on the
left side of his torso.  It took a sliver of the hip bone as it exited
through his lower back.  The figure retreated as best he could.  He
recalled that it "took everything in my power to just feel, to crawl,
okay?.....I mean, everything was getting numb."  The man whom the gym
shooters had floored was David Koresh.

p215-216 -- On the night of March 1, while making plans with the
negotiators, David Koresh lay upon blankets spread in the hallway that led
>from  the second-floor bedrooms to Mt. Carmel's residential tower, where he
customarily slept.  His abdominal wound was still seeping, and he was
subject to spasms of pain and lightheadedness.  Perhaps because they
wanted to show concern, or to protect their agreement, the negotiators
consulted with one of two nurses among Mt. Carmel's residents.  "You would
recommend that he get medical attention, would you not?" a negotiator
asked.  "Well, just a minute please," the nurse responded.  The negotiator
then heard her ask for Koresh.  After consulting the patient, the nurse
returned to the telephone.  "Well, at the moment, we don't think it's
necessary," she said.  Yet Koresh's blood pressure was 85/40, dangerously
low, and he refused any medication, even aspirin for his pain.  Unless the
Messiah received hospital care, it seemed likely that he would shortly
expire.
     Koresh apparently believed that he was dying.  No sooner had he
struck the surrender deal than he called the adult residents to his side,
to say goodbye, in case either looming death or looming imprisonment might
separate them.......

p246-247 -- The most gravely wounded soul in Mt. Carmel was, of course,
David Koresh.  He had nearly died between February 28 and March 2 when,
according to the reports that he and his aides provided, his blood
pressure dropped, even if his pulse remained at a jogger's sixty beats a
minute.  He urinated blood after the shooting, and he continued to suffer
maladies beyond pain.  On March 4, noting that the wound in his wrist
wouldn't close, he'd asked for a suture kit;  the FBI sent the first of
its bugging devices into Mt. Carmel, concealed in the first-aid supplies.
     On March 8, a severe headache began, and it didn't let up for nearly
three days.  During that span, Koresh's abdominal wound was seeping a
pinkish fluid, and from time to time renewed bleeding was evident.  The
preacher reported that his thumb was numb, that he experienced pain when
defecating, coughing, or laughing, and that he was having intense dreams
about birds, helicopters, and running.  Dick DeGuerin says that his client
was trembling and sometimes fell out of consciousness during their talks,
and Steve Schneider noted that Koresh complained of seeing spots before
his eyes;  on March 28, the Messiah told the FBI he was having spasms or
tremors.  The day before the doctor's phone consultation, a negotiator had
pressed him about the state of his health.  He was drinking orange juice,
eating green vegetables, taking spoonfuls of liquid iron, and applying
garlic to his wounds, the Messiah said.  That and God's will, he insisted,
would be enough to work a cure.
     The doctor and the negotiators warned that infections could set in,
and asked Steve Schneider to be on the lookout for signs of septicemia,
including severe headaches.  But Koresh wouldn't talk to the physician,
and even though his symptoms returned -- bleeding on March 21 and a severe
headache on March 25-27 -- he staunchly refused aid......

***********

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Oct 30 15:49:34 PST 1995
Article: 13020 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 28 Oct 1995 10:42:05 -0400
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Keith Jackson writes:

>The reluctance is an acknowledgment of the complete extreme to which the
>Nazi attrocities went.  Making quick comparisons between them and any
>group you don't like ends up diminishing the horrific magnitude of the
>Nazi regime.

Tell that to the "Nazi!Nazi!Nazi!" hysterics in alt.revisionism.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Oct 30 15:49:35 PST 1995
Article: 13021 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 28 Oct 1995 10:51:50 -0400
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Errol writes:

>I was saying that, with all this proof, indictments and court 
> convictions should follow - where are they exactly? Or is the
> lack of prosecutorial activity a sign of ...?

The prosecutorial activities are lying under the choking blanket of our
government's continued inability to own up to any wrongdoing until 50 to
100 years have passed.  We've got a good thing going in this country, but
some people presume it to be so fragile that the facade of something akin
to papal infallability must be maintained.  I think this country is not
only a good thing, but a strong one, and will only be stronger if its
business is conducted in an open, truthful manner, regardless of the
occasional pain that may cause.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Oct 30 15:49:36 PST 1995
Article: 13024 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 28 Oct 1995 11:05:53 -0400
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Errol writes:

>Obviously an unbiased work. Note the emotive word 'massacre' not
> 'suicide'.

I offer this anecdote not as proof of anything, simply to underscore the
unlikelihood of anyone choosing fire as a method of suicide.

In the movie Missouri Breaks, the Marlon Brando bounty-hunter character
has tracked down two of his quarry who are holed up in an old line shack. 
After a brief gun battle, he sets fire to the sod roof to smoke them out. 
There's really only one person in there, who doesn't come out until he's
been badly burned.  He collapses at the base of a tree, in pain and shock,
knowing that he's going to be killed now.  He is asked where his companion
is and replies that he decided to stay inside and die rather than come out
and face death by gunfire.  Brando turns toward the inferno, heat causing
him to squint even at a distance and gives a low exclamation of
astonishment.  "Stayed inside, huh?  Damn!  That's an awful hard way to
go.  You know, a man would do almost anything to keep from burning to
death."  At which point he comments on the courage and loyalty of the
burned man, kills him and sets off looking for the quarry that he knows
cannot be inside the inferno.

These people were into their religion, but they did not have the years of
conditioning that would bring them to the mental state of a Buddhist monk,
and I do not believe they were even close to the capability of
self-immolation.  And why in hell would you choose that way if there were
better avenues available?  Survivors testified of suicide being
contemplated when they thought the wounded Koresh was dying on about March
2.  The method was to have been with guns.  To go out firing, taking as
many of the "beast" with them as they could.  When Koresh got better,
those plans were quickly discarded.

The cause of the fire is patently obvious anyway.  No electricity,
kerosene lamps for light, highly flammable gas, high winds and wooden
buildings.  What part of that volatile string of connections is suspect or
flawed?  It's sure as hell a recipe for a bonfire.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Oct 30 15:49:36 PST 1995
Article: 13045 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Can't get there from here (was: racist filth)
Date: 28 Oct 1995 14:33:31 -0400
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:13045 rec.arts.books:100152

>Surely you can find better reasons to condemn him than 
>his failure to do you a favor ?
>
>And surely you can find a more appropriate forum ?

This and other strings of shabby posts show that the answers to above are
no and no.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Oct 30 15:49:37 PST 1995
Article: 13233 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 30 Oct 1995 13:13:58 -0500
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Errol wrote:

>One of the most interesting concepts for me is:
> 1) Allow unlimited purchase of firearms of all types, and you have
>    the potential for private armies, who are really going to be
>    hard to stop if they run into a disagreement with the government.

That ability and the potential relating to it existed in this country
until relatively recently.  I a making a guess that in the 1800's an
American could literally buy any kind of weapon that existed and do so
legally.

Localized private armies did indeed exist in this country, witness the
range wars of the last century throughout the upper midwest and parts of
the southwest.  They were based less on a particular group's outgunning
the populace than in outdoing the average man in willingness to use the
guns, and in being organized.  They were hard to stop because of
governmental indifference.  Once things went too far, the might of the
central government had little difficulty in stopping them.

I think the only way things can get really out of hand is if the
perception of governmental wrong grows strong enough to induce guerilla
type resistance, such as in Ireland.  Note that nothing of that sort
occurred on a scale worth mentioning during or after the Civil War, which
was as serious a governmental disagreement as this country has yet seen. 
Major potential sources of unrest in this country would seem to have
social and class roots and have little to do with the government directly.

Anyway, after having tried to make a point that attitude and resolve are
more important than the weapons, I do have to admit that the scenario of
something like the L.A. riots with military weaponry in the hands of
individuals is a bit frightening.  But it could also be that the thing we
need to worry about is the collection of attitudes that makes it a
frightening thought and not the weapons that will or won't be involved in
a violent resolution of same.  If there are indeed rotten and festering
spots within our body social, containing them only delays the inevitable. 
(This is not a call for open weaponry and battles in the streets.  Just
musing.)

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching

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