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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 1 Nov 1995 01:04:57 -0500
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 1 Nov 1995 01:20:24 -0500
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Article 13659 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 3 Nov 1995 20:11:07 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Errol wrote:

>1) What is your rationale for assuming that the Feds would just go in
>    shooting?

The fact that they did.

>One of the key elements in any criminal case is motive.
>    What would their motive be in this issue?

Vicious officiousness, fear, inexperience and too many Rambo movies.  Did
you know that all agents of the ATF are "Special Agents"?  They don't have
any ordinary agents.  Sound like a 007 movie?

>3) What was the reason that they remained holed up for the period that
>    they did? To my mind, lack of surrender and holing up carry the
>    same weight as an admission of guilt. They acted guilty because
>    they were guilty - so why don't we just wait for the indictments?

This was an apocalyptic sect.  They saw this as at least the beginning of
the end.  If the Beast comes to your door, would you be in a rush to greet
it?


-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


Article 13660 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 3 Nov 1995 20:11:17 -0500
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Steve Fisher wrote:

>>>(Susan) I couldn't parse the sentence.
>>
>>(Me) When you get too tight-assed, it's hard to parse anything.
>>
 >(Steve)   I was going to suggest an insufficiency of parsley in the
diet?

A good hypothesis, since a lack of roughage will lead to the lady's
apparent clogged state.  However, speech patterns indicate consumption of
massive quantities of watercress sandwiches, indicating that the condition
may be psychosomatic.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


Article 13759 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 5 Nov 1995 11:05:04 -0500
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Errol writes:

> Let me use an analogy:
> A happy family bus drives down the road - a pair of cops see it,
>and for whatever reason, decide to pull it over, It does not stop,
> but, the cops claim, the occupants start shooting at them, they
> pursue while the occupants make it very clear that they have
> women and children with them. Eventually after a long chase, the cops
> decide to push the vehicle off the road. They try and the vehicle
> crashes and burns. Should the driver have stopped the bus??
> Who would be to blame in this scenario??

The deciding factor for law enforcement is (supposed to be) whether or not
the object of their interest is creating a clear and present danger to
others.  A recent and well known example of this is O.J. Simpson's "low
speed chase" for several hours around the L.A. freeway system.  They had a
murder suspect in the car with a willing accomplice and chose not to use
potentially deadly force to stop them because they weren't posing a threat
to others.  A ridiculous inconvenience maybe, but no threat.  There are
similar less well publicized incidents several times a year in this area. 
The days of shoot 'em if they run appear to be numbered, if not over.

The example you give is an easy one to respond to.  If police took action
which claimed the lives of children in the imaginary bus, they would be
pilloried both in public opinion and a court of law, especially if "for
whatever reason" turned out to be a concocted excuse for harrassment. 
Society wouldn't stand for it.  Unless, of course, the children were the
spawn of known godless commie sex deviate dirtbags driving the bus, in
which case their deaths would become a regrettable accidental necessity. 
That's the crux of Waco, and Ruby Ridge.  Yeah, both incidents were wrong,
and if they had happened in a -normal- neighborhood the authorities would
have had hell to pay.  But they weren't normal neighborhoods and they
weren't normal people.  They were locations and people outside the pale of
this society and thus subject to the dismissive stance of, "It was wrong,
sure, but them freaks asked for it, and anyway, who gives a shit?  They're
better off dead."  That same attitude allowed us to cheer the wholesale
slaughter of a quarter million terrified Iraqui conscripts and then beat
our national breast afterward.  Sand-niggers had it coming, after all.

People have been fascinated with public executions since the dawn of
civilization (am I close to an oxymoron here?).  We have become too
refined to watch scheduled ones, but let an unscheduled official killing
pop up and we rush salivating to our TV sets, manufacturing
rationalizations to excuse our satisfaction all the while.  Looking for
the slightest reason to justify what we want to see.  Several millions of
people, including myself, were wishing the cops would have blown O.J. off
the road.  What later happened in the justice system serves to reinforce
that feeling in us all.  I don't judge this aspect of our natures, simply
note same, with the added observation that perhaps it is one that we'd all
be better off to face and purge from our psyches.  Or at least find a
better angel to counter it if it is a permanent feature.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


Article 19901 of alt.conspiracy:
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 5 Nov 1995 11:05:04 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Errol writes:

> Let me use an analogy:
> A happy family bus drives down the road - a pair of cops see it,
>and for whatever reason, decide to pull it over, It does not stop,
> but, the cops claim, the occupants start shooting at them, they
> pursue while the occupants make it very clear that they have
> women and children with them. Eventually after a long chase, the cops
> decide to push the vehicle off the road. They try and the vehicle
> crashes and burns. Should the driver have stopped the bus??
> Who would be to blame in this scenario??

The deciding factor for law enforcement is (supposed to be) whether or not
the object of their interest is creating a clear and present danger to
others.  A recent and well known example of this is O.J. Simpson's "low
speed chase" for several hours around the L.A. freeway system.  They had a
murder suspect in the car with a willing accomplice and chose not to use
potentially deadly force to stop them because they weren't posing a threat
to others.  A ridiculous inconvenience maybe, but no threat.  There are
similar less well publicized incidents several times a year in this area. 
The days of shoot 'em if they run appear to be numbered, if not over.

The example you give is an easy one to respond to.  If police took action
which claimed the lives of children in the imaginary bus, they would be
pilloried both in public opinion and a court of law, especially if "for
whatever reason" turned out to be a concocted excuse for harrassment. 
Society wouldn't stand for it.  Unless, of course, the children were the
spawn of known godless commie sex deviate dirtbags driving the bus, in
which case their deaths would become a regrettable accidental necessity. 
That's the crux of Waco, and Ruby Ridge.  Yeah, both incidents were wrong,
and if they had happened in a -normal- neighborhood the authorities would
have had hell to pay.  But they weren't normal neighborhoods and they
weren't normal people.  They were locations and people outside the pale of
this society and thus subject to the dismissive stance of, "It was wrong,
sure, but them freaks asked for it, and anyway, who gives a shit?  They're
better off dead."  That same attitude allowed us to cheer the wholesale
slaughter of a quarter million terrified Iraqui conscripts and then beat
our national breast afterward.  Sand-niggers had it coming, after all.

People have been fascinated with public executions since the dawn of
civilization (am I close to an oxymoron here?).  We have become too
refined to watch scheduled ones, but let an unscheduled official killing
pop up and we rush salivating to our TV sets, manufacturing
rationalizations to excuse our satisfaction all the while.  Looking for
the slightest reason to justify what we want to see.  Several millions of
people, including myself, were wishing the cops would have blown O.J. off
the road.  What later happened in the justice system serves to reinforce
that feeling in us all.  I don't judge this aspect of our natures, simply
note same, with the added observation that perhaps it is one that we'd all
be better off to face and purge from our psyches.  Or at least find a
better angel to counter it if it is a permanent feature.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


Article 291622 of talk.politics.misc:
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 3 Nov 1995 20:11:07 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Errol wrote:

>1) What is your rationale for assuming that the Feds would just go in
>    shooting?

The fact that they did.

>One of the key elements in any criminal case is motive.
>    What would their motive be in this issue?

Vicious officiousness, fear, inexperience and too many Rambo movies.  Did
you know that all agents of the ATF are "Special Agents"?  They don't have
any ordinary agents.  Sound like a 007 movie?

>3) What was the reason that they remained holed up for the period that
>    they did? To my mind, lack of surrender and holing up carry the
>    same weight as an admission of guilt. They acted guilty because
>    they were guilty - so why don't we just wait for the indictments?

This was an apocalyptic sect.  They saw this as at least the beginning of
the end.  If the Beast comes to your door, would you be in a rush to greet
it?


-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


Article 291626 of talk.politics.misc:
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 3 Nov 1995 20:11:17 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Steve Fisher wrote:

>>>(Susan) I couldn't parse the sentence.
>>
>>(Me) When you get too tight-assed, it's hard to parse anything.
>>
 >(Steve)   I was going to suggest an insufficiency of parsley in the
diet?

A good hypothesis, since a lack of roughage will lead to the lady's
apparent clogged state.  However, speech patterns indicate consumption of
massive quantities of watercress sandwiches, indicating that the condition
may be psychosomatic.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


Article 292028 of talk.politics.misc:
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 5 Nov 1995 11:05:04 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 59
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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Errol writes:

> Let me use an analogy:
> A happy family bus drives down the road - a pair of cops see it,
>and for whatever reason, decide to pull it over, It does not stop,
> but, the cops claim, the occupants start shooting at them, they
> pursue while the occupants make it very clear that they have
> women and children with them. Eventually after a long chase, the cops
> decide to push the vehicle off the road. They try and the vehicle
> crashes and burns. Should the driver have stopped the bus??
> Who would be to blame in this scenario??

The deciding factor for law enforcement is (supposed to be) whether or not
the object of their interest is creating a clear and present danger to
others.  A recent and well known example of this is O.J. Simpson's "low
speed chase" for several hours around the L.A. freeway system.  They had a
murder suspect in the car with a willing accomplice and chose not to use
potentially deadly force to stop them because they weren't posing a threat
to others.  A ridiculous inconvenience maybe, but no threat.  There are
similar less well publicized incidents several times a year in this area. 
The days of shoot 'em if they run appear to be numbered, if not over.

The example you give is an easy one to respond to.  If police took action
which claimed the lives of children in the imaginary bus, they would be
pilloried both in public opinion and a court of law, especially if "for
whatever reason" turned out to be a concocted excuse for harrassment. 
Society wouldn't stand for it.  Unless, of course, the children were the
spawn of known godless commie sex deviate dirtbags driving the bus, in
which case their deaths would become a regrettable accidental necessity. 
That's the crux of Waco, and Ruby Ridge.  Yeah, both incidents were wrong,
and if they had happened in a -normal- neighborhood the authorities would
have had hell to pay.  But they weren't normal neighborhoods and they
weren't normal people.  They were locations and people outside the pale of
this society and thus subject to the dismissive stance of, "It was wrong,
sure, but them freaks asked for it, and anyway, who gives a shit?  They're
better off dead."  That same attitude allowed us to cheer the wholesale
slaughter of a quarter million terrified Iraqui conscripts and then beat
our national breast afterward.  Sand-niggers had it coming, after all.

People have been fascinated with public executions since the dawn of
civilization (am I close to an oxymoron here?).  We have become too
refined to watch scheduled ones, but let an unscheduled official killing
pop up and we rush salivating to our TV sets, manufacturing
rationalizations to excuse our satisfaction all the while.  Looking for
the slightest reason to justify what we want to see.  Several millions of
people, including myself, were wishing the cops would have blown O.J. off
the road.  What later happened in the justice system serves to reinforce
that feeling in us all.  I don't judge this aspect of our natures, simply
note same, with the added observation that perhaps it is one that we'd all
be better off to face and purge from our psyches.  Or at least find a
better angel to counter it if it is a permanent feature.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


Article 13848 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 6 Nov 1995 10:35:35 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Errol writes:

>No sir. The children are in danger IN the bus.

Jesus, Errol.  So the way to reduce that danger is to push the bus off the
road????  You may have career possibilities in the BATF.

> They could not
> 'stop the bus' because they would be in trouble if anyone came
> and had a serious look at what was happening.

O.J., and others in chase situations, eventually run out of resolve or
gas.  The Davidians would have eventually run out of food and water. 
Posting 2 guards at a time on a 24 hour basis would have been all that was
needed to wait them out, although it would still be gross overkill for the
type of warrant involved.  Did you know that one of the major problems in
serving warrants, including ones that can involve arrest, is people
refusing to come to their door.  And the police do not kick down those
doors to check it out either.  There was a funny story on the wires after
Halloween about a cop who dressed in a clown outfit and went to various
addresses where people lived who had outstanding warrants.  He snagged 11
of them who came to the door for the trick or treater.

>The held out for
> the period of time they did for no reasonably explicable reason
> other than a deranged series of mumblings which were totally at
> odds with Jesus's own teachings about not interfering when the
> 'law' came for him

Your posts indicate that you read Ashes of Waco.  It plainly outlines in
there that the consensus of Koresh and his followers was that the men
outside did not represent the law, but the Beast.  They were minions of
Satan and this was the beginning of the end.  Christ said nothing about
obligations in that situation.

>Vernon Howell is plainly to blame for the
> larger portion of the fiasco

The people directing those tanks are entirely to blame for the outcome.

>and this largely because of his
> all-consuming self-interest.

You exhibit a bit of a redneck mindset here.  Of what concern is his
self-interest?  Did he have bad breath too?  What other personal
shortcomings make him a good candidate for sanctioned murder?

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


Article 219384 of talk.politics.guns:
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 5 Nov 1995 11:05:04 -0500
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Errol writes:

> Let me use an analogy:
> A happy family bus drives down the road - a pair of cops see it,
>and for whatever reason, decide to pull it over, It does not stop,
> but, the cops claim, the occupants start shooting at them, they
> pursue while the occupants make it very clear that they have
> women and children with them. Eventually after a long chase, the cops
> decide to push the vehicle off the road. They try and the vehicle
> crashes and burns. Should the driver have stopped the bus??
> Who would be to blame in this scenario??

The deciding factor for law enforcement is (supposed to be) whether or not
the object of their interest is creating a clear and present danger to
others.  A recent and well known example of this is O.J. Simpson's "low
speed chase" for several hours around the L.A. freeway system.  They had a
murder suspect in the car with a willing accomplice and chose not to use
potentially deadly force to stop them because they weren't posing a threat
to others.  A ridiculous inconvenience maybe, but no threat.  There are
similar less well publicized incidents several times a year in this area. 
The days of shoot 'em if they run appear to be numbered, if not over.

The example you give is an easy one to respond to.  If police took action
which claimed the lives of children in the imaginary bus, they would be
pilloried both in public opinion and a court of law, especially if "for
whatever reason" turned out to be a concocted excuse for harrassment. 
Society wouldn't stand for it.  Unless, of course, the children were the
spawn of known godless commie sex deviate dirtbags driving the bus, in
which case their deaths would become a regrettable accidental necessity. 
That's the crux of Waco, and Ruby Ridge.  Yeah, both incidents were wrong,
and if they had happened in a -normal- neighborhood the authorities would
have had hell to pay.  But they weren't normal neighborhoods and they
weren't normal people.  They were locations and people outside the pale of
this society and thus subject to the dismissive stance of, "It was wrong,
sure, but them freaks asked for it, and anyway, who gives a shit?  They're
better off dead."  That same attitude allowed us to cheer the wholesale
slaughter of a quarter million terrified Iraqui conscripts and then beat
our national breast afterward.  Sand-niggers had it coming, after all.

People have been fascinated with public executions since the dawn of
civilization (am I close to an oxymoron here?).  We have become too
refined to watch scheduled ones, but let an unscheduled official killing
pop up and we rush salivating to our TV sets, manufacturing
rationalizations to excuse our satisfaction all the while.  Looking for
the slightest reason to justify what we want to see.  Several millions of
people, including myself, were wishing the cops would have blown O.J. off
the road.  What later happened in the justice system serves to reinforce
that feeling in us all.  I don't judge this aspect of our natures, simply
note same, with the added observation that perhaps it is one that we'd all
be better off to face and purge from our psyches.  Or at least find a
better angel to counter it if it is a permanent feature.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 6 Nov 1995 10:35:35 -0500
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Errol writes:

>No sir. The children are in danger IN the bus.

Jesus, Errol.  So the way to reduce that danger is to push the bus off the
road????  You may have career possibilities in the BATF.

> They could not
> 'stop the bus' because they would be in trouble if anyone came
> and had a serious look at what was happening.

O.J., and others in chase situations, eventually run out of resolve or
gas.  The Davidians would have eventually run out of food and water. 
Posting 2 guards at a time on a 24 hour basis would have been all that was
needed to wait them out, although it would still be gross overkill for the
type of warrant involved.  Did you know that one of the major problems in
serving warrants, including ones that can involve arrest, is people
refusing to come to their door.  And the police do not kick down those
doors to check it out either.  There was a funny story on the wires after
Halloween about a cop who dressed in a clown outfit and went to various
addresses where people lived who had outstanding warrants.  He snagged 11
of them who came to the door for the trick or treater.

>The held out for
> the period of time they did for no reasonably explicable reason
> other than a deranged series of mumblings which were totally at
> odds with Jesus's own teachings about not interfering when the
> 'law' came for him

Your posts indicate that you read Ashes of Waco.  It plainly outlines in
there that the consensus of Koresh and his followers was that the men
outside did not represent the law, but the Beast.  They were minions of
Satan and this was the beginning of the end.  Christ said nothing about
obligations in that situation.

>Vernon Howell is plainly to blame for the
> larger portion of the fiasco

The people directing those tanks are entirely to blame for the outcome.

>and this largely because of his
> all-consuming self-interest.

You exhibit a bit of a redneck mindset here.  Of what concern is his
self-interest?  Did he have bad breath too?  What other personal
shortcomings make him a good candidate for sanctioned murder?

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching

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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 6 Nov 1995 10:35:35 -0500
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Errol writes:

>No sir. The children are in danger IN the bus.

Jesus, Errol.  So the way to reduce that danger is to push the bus off the
road????  You may have career possibilities in the BATF.

> They could not
> 'stop the bus' because they would be in trouble if anyone came
> and had a serious look at what was happening.

O.J., and others in chase situations, eventually run out of resolve or
gas.  The Davidians would have eventually run out of food and water. 
Posting 2 guards at a time on a 24 hour basis would have been all that was
needed to wait them out, although it would still be gross overkill for the
type of warrant involved.  Did you know that one of the major problems in
serving warrants, including ones that can involve arrest, is people
refusing to come to their door.  And the police do not kick down those
doors to check it out either.  There was a funny story on the wires after
Halloween about a cop who dressed in a clown outfit and went to various
addresses where people lived who had outstanding warrants.  He snagged 11
of them who came to the door for the trick or treater.

>The held out for
> the period of time they did for no reasonably explicable reason
> other than a deranged series of mumblings which were totally at
> odds with Jesus's own teachings about not interfering when the
> 'law' came for him

Your posts indicate that you read Ashes of Waco.  It plainly outlines in
there that the consensus of Koresh and his followers was that the men
outside did not represent the law, but the Beast.  They were minions of
Satan and this was the beginning of the end.  Christ said nothing about
obligations in that situation.

>Vernon Howell is plainly to blame for the
> larger portion of the fiasco

The people directing those tanks are entirely to blame for the outcome.

>and this largely because of his
> all-consuming self-interest.

You exhibit a bit of a redneck mindset here.  Of what concern is his
self-interest?  Did he have bad breath too?  What other personal
shortcomings make him a good candidate for sanctioned murder?

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching

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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 6 Nov 1995 10:35:35 -0500
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Errol writes:

>No sir. The children are in danger IN the bus.

Jesus, Errol.  So the way to reduce that danger is to push the bus off the
road????  You may have career possibilities in the BATF.

> They could not
> 'stop the bus' because they would be in trouble if anyone came
> and had a serious look at what was happening.

O.J., and others in chase situations, eventually run out of resolve or
gas.  The Davidians would have eventually run out of food and water. 
Posting 2 guards at a time on a 24 hour basis would have been all that was
needed to wait them out, although it would still be gross overkill for the
type of warrant involved.  Did you know that one of the major problems in
serving warrants, including ones that can involve arrest, is people
refusing to come to their door.  And the police do not kick down those
doors to check it out either.  There was a funny story on the wires after
Halloween about a cop who dressed in a clown outfit and went to various
addresses where people lived who had outstanding warrants.  He snagged 11
of them who came to the door for the trick or treater.

>The held out for
> the period of time they did for no reasonably explicable reason
> other than a deranged series of mumblings which were totally at
> odds with Jesus's own teachings about not interfering when the
> 'law' came for him

Your posts indicate that you read Ashes of Waco.  It plainly outlines in
there that the consensus of Koresh and his followers was that the men
outside did not represent the law, but the Beast.  They were minions of
Satan and this was the beginning of the end.  Christ said nothing about
obligations in that situation.

>Vernon Howell is plainly to blame for the
> larger portion of the fiasco

The people directing those tanks are entirely to blame for the outcome.

>and this largely because of his
> all-consuming self-interest.

You exhibit a bit of a redneck mindset here.  Of what concern is his
self-interest?  Did he have bad breath too?  What other personal
shortcomings make him a good candidate for sanctioned murder?

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching

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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 3 Nov 1995 20:11:07 -0500
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Errol wrote:

>1) What is your rationale for assuming that the Feds would just go in
>    shooting?

The fact that they did.

>One of the key elements in any criminal case is motive.
>    What would their motive be in this issue?

Vicious officiousness, fear, inexperience and too many Rambo movies.  Did
you know that all agents of the ATF are "Special Agents"?  They don't have
any ordinary agents.  Sound like a 007 movie?

>3) What was the reason that they remained holed up for the period that
>    they did? To my mind, lack of surrender and holing up carry the
>    same weight as an admission of guilt. They acted guilty because
>    they were guilty - so why don't we just wait for the indictments?

This was an apocalyptic sect.  They saw this as at least the beginning of
the end.  If the Beast comes to your door, would you be in a rush to greet
it?


-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching

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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 3 Nov 1995 20:11:17 -0500
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Steve Fisher wrote:

>>>(Susan) I couldn't parse the sentence.
>>
>>(Me) When you get too tight-assed, it's hard to parse anything.
>>
 >(Steve)   I was going to suggest an insufficiency of parsley in the
diet?

A good hypothesis, since a lack of roughage will lead to the lady's
apparent clogged state.  However, speech patterns indicate consumption of
massive quantities of watercress sandwiches, indicating that the condition
may be psychosomatic.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching

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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 5 Nov 1995 11:05:04 -0500
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Errol writes:

> Let me use an analogy:
> A happy family bus drives down the road - a pair of cops see it,
>and for whatever reason, decide to pull it over, It does not stop,
> but, the cops claim, the occupants start shooting at them, they
> pursue while the occupants make it very clear that they have
> women and children with them. Eventually after a long chase, the cops
> decide to push the vehicle off the road. They try and the vehicle
> crashes and burns. Should the driver have stopped the bus??
> Who would be to blame in this scenario??

The deciding factor for law enforcement is (supposed to be) whether or not
the object of their interest is creating a clear and present danger to
others.  A recent and well known example of this is O.J. Simpson's "low
speed chase" for several hours around the L.A. freeway system.  They had a
murder suspect in the car with a willing accomplice and chose not to use
potentially deadly force to stop them because they weren't posing a threat
to others.  A ridiculous inconvenience maybe, but no threat.  There are
similar less well publicized incidents several times a year in this area. 
The days of shoot 'em if they run appear to be numbered, if not over.

The example you give is an easy one to respond to.  If police took action
which claimed the lives of children in the imaginary bus, they would be
pilloried both in public opinion and a court of law, especially if "for
whatever reason" turned out to be a concocted excuse for harrassment. 
Society wouldn't stand for it.  Unless, of course, the children were the
spawn of known godless commie sex deviate dirtbags driving the bus, in
which case their deaths would become a regrettable accidental necessity. 
That's the crux of Waco, and Ruby Ridge.  Yeah, both incidents were wrong,
and if they had happened in a -normal- neighborhood the authorities would
have had hell to pay.  But they weren't normal neighborhoods and they
weren't normal people.  They were locations and people outside the pale of
this society and thus subject to the dismissive stance of, "It was wrong,
sure, but them freaks asked for it, and anyway, who gives a shit?  They're
better off dead."  That same attitude allowed us to cheer the wholesale
slaughter of a quarter million terrified Iraqui conscripts and then beat
our national breast afterward.  Sand-niggers had it coming, after all.

People have been fascinated with public executions since the dawn of
civilization (am I close to an oxymoron here?).  We have become too
refined to watch scheduled ones, but let an unscheduled official killing
pop up and we rush salivating to our TV sets, manufacturing
rationalizations to excuse our satisfaction all the while.  Looking for
the slightest reason to justify what we want to see.  Several millions of
people, including myself, were wishing the cops would have blown O.J. off
the road.  What later happened in the justice system serves to reinforce
that feeling in us all.  I don't judge this aspect of our natures, simply
note same, with the added observation that perhaps it is one that we'd all
be better off to face and purge from our psyches.  Or at least find a
better angel to counter it if it is a permanent feature.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching

Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 6 Nov 1995 10:35:35 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Errol writes:

>No sir. The children are in danger IN the bus.

Jesus, Errol.  So the way to reduce that danger is to push the bus off the
road????  You may have career possibilities in the BATF.

> They could not
> 'stop the bus' because they would be in trouble if anyone came
> and had a serious look at what was happening.

O.J., and others in chase situations, eventually run out of resolve or
gas.  The Davidians would have eventually run out of food and water. 
Posting 2 guards at a time on a 24 hour basis would have been all that was
needed to wait them out, although it would still be gross overkill for the
type of warrant involved.  Did you know that one of the major problems in
serving warrants, including ones that can involve arrest, is people
refusing to come to their door.  And the police do not kick down those
doors to check it out either.  There was a funny story on the wires after
Halloween about a cop who dressed in a clown outfit and went to various
addresses where people lived who had outstanding warrants.  He snagged 11
of them who came to the door for the trick or treater.

>The held out for
> the period of time they did for no reasonably explicable reason
> other than a deranged series of mumblings which were totally at
> odds with Jesus's own teachings about not interfering when the
> 'law' came for him

Your posts indicate that you read Ashes of Waco.  It plainly outlines in
there that the consensus of Koresh and his followers was that the men
outside did not represent the law, but the Beast.  They were minions of
Satan and this was the beginning of the end.  Christ said nothing about
obligations in that situation.

>Vernon Howell is plainly to blame for the
> larger portion of the fiasco

The people directing those tanks are entirely to blame for the outcome.

>and this largely because of his
> all-consuming self-interest.

You exhibit a bit of a redneck mindset here.  Of what concern is his
self-interest?  Did he have bad breath too?  What other personal
shortcomings make him a good candidate for sanctioned murder?

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching

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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 6 Nov 1995 10:35:35 -0500
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Errol writes:

>No sir. The children are in danger IN the bus.

Jesus, Errol.  So the way to reduce that danger is to push the bus off the
road????  You may have career possibilities in the BATF.

> They could not
> 'stop the bus' because they would be in trouble if anyone came
> and had a serious look at what was happening.

O.J., and others in chase situations, eventually run out of resolve or
gas.  The Davidians would have eventually run out of food and water. 
Posting 2 guards at a time on a 24 hour basis would have been all that was
needed to wait them out, although it would still be gross overkill for the
type of warrant involved.  Did you know that one of the major problems in
serving warrants, including ones that can involve arrest, is people
refusing to come to their door.  And the police do not kick down those
doors to check it out either.  There was a funny story on the wires after
Halloween about a cop who dressed in a clown outfit and went to various
addresses where people lived who had outstanding warrants.  He snagged 11
of them who came to the door for the trick or treater.

>The held out for
> the period of time they did for no reasonably explicable reason
> other than a deranged series of mumblings which were totally at
> odds with Jesus's own teachings about not interfering when the
> 'law' came for him

Your posts indicate that you read Ashes of Waco.  It plainly outlines in
there that the consensus of Koresh and his followers was that the men
outside did not represent the law, but the Beast.  They were minions of
Satan and this was the beginning of the end.  Christ said nothing about
obligations in that situation.

>Vernon Howell is plainly to blame for the
> larger portion of the fiasco

The people directing those tanks are entirely to blame for the outcome.

>and this largely because of his
> all-consuming self-interest.

You exhibit a bit of a redneck mindset here.  Of what concern is his
self-interest?  Did he have bad breath too?  What other personal
shortcomings make him a good candidate for sanctioned murder?

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching

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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 6 Nov 1995 10:35:35 -0500
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Errol writes:

>No sir. The children are in danger IN the bus.

Jesus, Errol.  So the way to reduce that danger is to push the bus off the
road????  You may have career possibilities in the BATF.

> They could not
> 'stop the bus' because they would be in trouble if anyone came
> and had a serious look at what was happening.

O.J., and others in chase situations, eventually run out of resolve or
gas.  The Davidians would have eventually run out of food and water. 
Posting 2 guards at a time on a 24 hour basis would have been all that was
needed to wait them out, although it would still be gross overkill for the
type of warrant involved.  Did you know that one of the major problems in
serving warrants, including ones that can involve arrest, is people
refusing to come to their door.  And the police do not kick down those
doors to check it out either.  There was a funny story on the wires after
Halloween about a cop who dressed in a clown outfit and went to various
addresses where people lived who had outstanding warrants.  He snagged 11
of them who came to the door for the trick or treater.

>The held out for
> the period of time they did for no reasonably explicable reason
> other than a deranged series of mumblings which were totally at
> odds with Jesus's own teachings about not interfering when the
> 'law' came for him

Your posts indicate that you read Ashes of Waco.  It plainly outlines in
there that the consensus of Koresh and his followers was that the men
outside did not represent the law, but the Beast.  They were minions of
Satan and this was the beginning of the end.  Christ said nothing about
obligations in that situation.

>Vernon Howell is plainly to blame for the
> larger portion of the fiasco

The people directing those tanks are entirely to blame for the outcome.

>and this largely because of his
> all-consuming self-interest.

You exhibit a bit of a redneck mindset here.  Of what concern is his
self-interest?  Did he have bad breath too?  What other personal
shortcomings make him a good candidate for sanctioned murder?

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching

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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 3 Nov 1995 20:11:07 -0500
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Errol wrote:

>1) What is your rationale for assuming that the Feds would just go in
>    shooting?

The fact that they did.

>One of the key elements in any criminal case is motive.
>    What would their motive be in this issue?

Vicious officiousness, fear, inexperience and too many Rambo movies.  Did
you know that all agents of the ATF are "Special Agents"?  They don't have
any ordinary agents.  Sound like a 007 movie?

>3) What was the reason that they remained holed up for the period that
>    they did? To my mind, lack of surrender and holing up carry the
>    same weight as an admission of guilt. They acted guilty because
>    they were guilty - so why don't we just wait for the indictments?

This was an apocalyptic sect.  They saw this as at least the beginning of
the end.  If the Beast comes to your door, would you be in a rush to greet
it?


-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching

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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 3 Nov 1995 20:11:17 -0500
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Steve Fisher wrote:

>>>(Susan) I couldn't parse the sentence.
>>
>>(Me) When you get too tight-assed, it's hard to parse anything.
>>
 >(Steve)   I was going to suggest an insufficiency of parsley in the
diet?

A good hypothesis, since a lack of roughage will lead to the lady's
apparent clogged state.  However, speech patterns indicate consumption of
massive quantities of watercress sandwiches, indicating that the condition
may be psychosomatic.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching

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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.org.batf,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Front Line (PBS) Waco
Date: 5 Nov 1995 11:05:04 -0500
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Errol writes:

> Let me use an analogy:
> A happy family bus drives down the road - a pair of cops see it,
>and for whatever reason, decide to pull it over, It does not stop,
> but, the cops claim, the occupants start shooting at them, they
> pursue while the occupants make it very clear that they have
> women and children with them. Eventually after a long chase, the cops
> decide to push the vehicle off the road. They try and the vehicle
> crashes and burns. Should the driver have stopped the bus??
> Who would be to blame in this scenario??

The deciding factor for law enforcement is (supposed to be) whether or not
the object of their interest is creating a clear and present danger to
others.  A recent and well known example of this is O.J. Simpson's "low
speed chase" for several hours around the L.A. freeway system.  They had a
murder suspect in the car with a willing accomplice and chose not to use
potentially deadly force to stop them because they weren't posing a threat
to others.  A ridiculous inconvenience maybe, but no threat.  There are
similar less well publicized incidents several times a year in this area. 
The days of shoot 'em if they run appear to be numbered, if not over.

The example you give is an easy one to respond to.  If police took action
which claimed the lives of children in the imaginary bus, they would be
pilloried both in public opinion and a court of law, especially if "for
whatever reason" turned out to be a concocted excuse for harrassment. 
Society wouldn't stand for it.  Unless, of course, the children were the
spawn of known godless commie sex deviate dirtbags driving the bus, in
which case their deaths would become a regrettable accidental necessity. 
That's the crux of Waco, and Ruby Ridge.  Yeah, both incidents were wrong,
and if they had happened in a -normal- neighborhood the authorities would
have had hell to pay.  But they weren't normal neighborhoods and they
weren't normal people.  They were locations and people outside the pale of
this society and thus subject to the dismissive stance of, "It was wrong,
sure, but them freaks asked for it, and anyway, who gives a shit?  They're
better off dead."  That same attitude allowed us to cheer the wholesale
slaughter of a quarter million terrified Iraqui conscripts and then beat
our national breast afterward.  Sand-niggers had it coming, after all.

People have been fascinated with public executions since the dawn of
civilization (am I close to an oxymoron here?).  We have become too
refined to watch scheduled ones, but let an unscheduled official killing
pop up and we rush salivating to our TV sets, manufacturing
rationalizations to excuse our satisfaction all the while.  Looking for
the slightest reason to justify what we want to see.  Several millions of
people, including myself, were wishing the cops would have blown O.J. off
the road.  What later happened in the justice system serves to reinforce
that feeling in us all.  I don't judge this aspect of our natures, simply
note same, with the added observation that perhaps it is one that we'd all
be better off to face and purge from our psyches.  Or at least find a
better angel to counter it if it is a permanent feature.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching

Article 13988 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Europe would have succeded no matter what race of man settled there.
Date: 27 Nov 1995 19:09:16 -0500
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>Here's my two cents.
>
>You know those ultra-primitive Australian aborigines?
>
>First seafaring human beings--nearly 25,000 years ago.

Could be. Did you ever notice that our yardstick of success is entirely
material?  How good is that group? I dunno -- how much they worth?  What
did they build?  What body of knowledge did they develop and pass on? 
Were they traders?  Did they have cities?

There are other things in life beside the material and the mechanical
cleverness which enables piling it up, something our hell-bent rush to
acquire largely ignores.  Case in point, the aborigines of Australia.  A
people more in touch with their spiritual side than the people of this
country ever were or probably ever will be.  That's not only worth
something, it may be worth everything.  We continually confuse cleverness
and wisdom.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


Article 13994 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor-Debra-Quote
Date: 27 Nov 1995 19:12:24 -0500
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>The bacillus of prejudice is
>exceedingly tenacious and truth and memory exceedingly fragile.

And that statement is utter bullshit.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching

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