From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sat Dec  2 18:07:56 PST 1995
Article: 14691 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Europe would have succeded no matter what race of man settled there.
Date: 2 Dec 1995 17:25:44 -0500
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>: Simply being the first is not what it's all about.  It's what you do
with
>: that knowledge and experience and whether it is pasted on from
gernation
>: to generation.

Lemme see if I got this straight.  You're civilized if your mama wore
pasties and put them on you?

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sat Dec  2 18:07:57 PST 1995
Article: 14694 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yitzhak Shamir on Jewish Supremacy
Date: 2 Dec 1995 17:52:58 -0500
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>So? And the point is?

I think his point is that Yitzhak Shamir is a murdering bigot.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sat Dec  2 20:05:48 PST 1995
Article: 14705 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Luftl's 'Report' Again (Re: Comments and Questions to Ulri
Date: 2 Dec 1995 19:04:53 -0500
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Dan Keren wrote:

>Luftl says that the remaining Zyklon would have prevented
>the sonderkommando from entering the gas chambers and taking
>the corpses out.
> 
>Some testimonies of sonderkommando survivors mention that they
>used gas masks in some of the Kremas. 
> 
>Wouldn't this be a very simple solution to Luftl's "problem"?
> 
>Moreover, in Kremas II and III, the Zyklon wasn't dropped on
>the floor, but lowered via wiremesh introduction devices. It
>was *taken out* by these devices, after enough time had passed
>for the victims to die. Then, the ventilation was switched on,
>and the sonderkommando later entered the gas chambers, which
>didn't have in them any remaining Zyklon.
> 
>Wouldn't this be a very simple solution to Luftl's "problem"?

There's some new information out in a report done by a German chemist
named Germar Rudolf which applies directly to the questions being
discussed here.  Rudolf gives specific times for the evaporation rate of
Zyklon-B which lead to two important conclusions.

(1)  Zyklon-B continues to emit HCN fumes in lethal quantities for many
hours.  Thus, scattered pellets would present a considerable, though not
impossible, cleanup hazard.

(2)  Piling the pellets in a basket would slow the evaporation rate
considerably.  Haven't done any calculations on this yet, but if someone
is interested the figures are as follows:

HCN release rate at 20 degrees C for "thinly distributed" pellets is 40%
of the starting amount for each 30 minutes.  To apply that to a basket of
pellets, you would estimate relative surface areas and apply that directly
to the evaporation rate.  If you can then estimate a stated starting
quantity (6 to 7 kilos, I believe, but would have to check references) and
a chamber volume, times to reach lethal levels in the air, irrespective of
dispersion, are fairly simple to calculate.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Dec  4 08:49:51 PST 1995
Article: 63759 of alt.politics.correct
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,soc.culture.african.american,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica,alt.sex.stories,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.correct,alt.sex,alt.games,alt.newbie
Subject: Re: My Yummy panties
Date: 3 Dec 1995 21:36:46 -0500
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What are you guys arguing about?  "She" is a "he".

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Dec  4 23:18:35 PST 1995
Article: 63925 of alt.politics.correct
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.correct,alt.discrimination,soc.rights.human,alt.feminazis,alt.mens-rights,soc.men,nz.general,soc.culture.new-zealand
Subject: Re: political correctness, revisionism and censorship
Date: 3 Dec 1995 21:23:58 -0500
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Just a passing comment on Paul Walker's response to Peter Zohrab's post.

If you want to take on the entire position he offered in a coherent way,
that's great.  Takes the most work, provides the most interest to a
reader.

If you want to take on one or two aspects in depth and offer counter
positions to them, that's useful too.  Shaeffer's response is
one-dimensional, but at least it makes a point.

Nit-picking a dozen or more aspects without any apparent direction is a
waste of everyone's time, including the writer's.  Anything ever written
can be reduced to confusing mish-mash this way.  Little boys like to tear
things down with no purpose in mind.  Try building something.  Anything.

No offense intended.  Long day, little patience.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Dec  4 23:18:37 PST 1995
Article: 63938 of alt.politics.correct
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,soc.culture.african.american,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica,alt.sex.stories,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.correct,alt.sex,alt.games,alt.newbie
Subject: Re: THEY CAME BEFORE COLUMBUS. Who? Negro's
Date: 3 Dec 1995 21:49:22 -0500
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>You have no problem accepting white HIStory as fact because it gives
>you goosebumps all over. Makes you feel good if not superior.

I've heard this one a lot.  Have never understood the concept of taking
pride in where you came from, or what your ancestors did.  Isn't the
measure of a life what you choose to do with it?

It might surprise some folks to know how many people don't give a rat's
ass for who their ancestors were or what they did or did not do.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Dec  6 12:47:08 PST 1995
Article: 15228 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHERE IS THE RESTAURANT?
Date: 6 Dec 1995 02:09:50 -0500
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A more cogent question - where is the wit?  You can do a lot better than
this, Michael.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Thu Dec  7 15:23:48 PST 1995
Article: 15354 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Luftl's 'Report' Again (Re: Comments and Questions to Ulri
Date: 7 Dec 1995 10:18:28 -0500
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U. Roessler asks>

>Where did Rudolf find these data (HCN evaporation rate) ? Could you give
a proper reference 
>to that information.

I have not obtained the full original paper yet.  The short excerpt I saw
referenced a German firm named either Delta or Detia Gmbh.  Can find no
reference to that company in on-line sources, perhaps you could shed some
light.

As for how long it emits, a 40% loss each half hour (closer to 37%
actually) translates to something around 10% of the starting HCN still
being left to evaporate after 6 hours.  There was another post somewhere
here that gave it as what would be a generic formula.  Standard
exponential rate thing.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Thu Dec  7 18:00:23 PST 1995
Article: 64381 of alt.politics.correct
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.correct,alt.discrimination,soc.rights.human,alt.feminazis,alt.mens-rights,soc.men,nz.general,soc.culture.new-zealand
Subject: Re: political correctness, revisionism and censorship
Date: 7 Dec 1995 15:35:13 -0500
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>So, you are blaming the victim?  The Jews just "had it coming"?  You
still
> haven't shown that they were so damned powerful.

When selecting a victim from a group, predators of all stripes will be
drawn to specific profiles which transcend species.  Does this mean that
the victim is "at fault"?  There is no fault in the exchange, it's just a
natural occurence.  Fit the profile, pass a predator, and you get eaten. 
It's highly fashionable to talk of predator control, but almost no one
wants to discuss profiles.  No, I -won't- hang my food in a tree when
camping in the Sierras.  Now forget about that and let's discuss how to
keep those damned bears from coming into camp.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Fri Dec  8 06:51:29 PST 1995
Article: 15447 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Luftl's 'Report' Again (Re: Comments and Questions to Ulri
Date: 8 Dec 1995 04:36:36 -0500
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Daniel Keren wrote

># As for how long it emits, a 40% loss each half hour (closer 
># to 37% actually) translates to something around 10% of the 
># starting HCN still being left to evaporate after 6 hours.  
>
>I am not sure I follow this. If 37% evaporates every 
>half-hour, won't 0.63^12 be left after six hours? But 
>this is about 0.004, which is 0.4%, not 10%. Or, does
>the rate of evaporation change?

Thanks for catching the error.  It's 6 time periods of 1/2 hour each, not
6 hours.  At 3 hours, the residual expected from the model given is close
to 7% of the starting amount, all rates referenced to 20 degrees C.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Fri Dec  8 06:51:30 PST 1995
Article: 15449 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Luftl's 'Report' Again (Re: Comments and Questions to Ulri
Date: 8 Dec 1995 04:51:14 -0500
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Jack Hahn writes:

>>As for how long it emits, a 40% loss each half hour (closer to 37%
>>actually) translates to something around 10% of the starting HCN still
>>being left to evaporate after 6 hours.  There was another post somewhere
>>here that gave it as what would be a generic formula.  Standard
>>exponential rate thing.
>>
>Your calculations seem off by a factor of two or so.  Using a 37% per
half 
>hour exponential rate I get 10% being left after 2 1/2 hours. (.63^5 =
.10)

You are correct.  A calculation based on 6 time periods (of one-half hour
each) was mistakenly given as 6 hours.  The change in import is that
clearly deadly levels will still be in active emission 3 hours after
exposure to atmosphere rather than 6 hours after.  Net effect on
significance is negligible.  The weight of testimony, which is a major
factor here, is that the procedure was over in 30 minutes at the most. 
Residual emissions on the order given, and in the physical circumstances
described elsewhere, present a non-trivial question -- how was this hazard
handled?  I am sure that it could have been, but have read no comments
about it.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sat Dec 16 16:48:51 PST 1995
Article: 16288 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: General Question to Newsgroup
Date: 16 Dec 1995 10:09:40 -0500
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I agree with the comments made by rightaway@aol.com.  This newsgroup is
next to useless as a place to exchange ideas.  Vulgarity and harrassment
are routinely used to squelch conversation, and the departure of a
participant because of this brings forth calls of some kind of logical
victory in a debate that never took place.  The technique is the exact
equivalent of shouting in someone's face until they decide that there are
better things to do and better places to be.  The utility of the method is
obvious, but I personally think that it has no place on the Internet
except in something like alt.flame.  In a word or two, it sucks.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sat Dec 16 16:48:52 PST 1995
Article: 16293 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHAT PATTON SAID (was: Is Griswold making things up again?)
Date: 16 Dec 1995 10:18:39 -0500
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Keith Morrison writes:

>As for Eisenhower being a tactician, not really, nothing exceptional
there.  
>He was no more a superior tactician than is Colin Powell.  What he was
was a 
>strategist who could see the larger picture and accepted that war is the 
>continuation of politics by other means.  Wars are started for political 
>reasons and their ends must be decided by political means.

Excellent analysis, including the parts not quoted.  And George Patton was
one of the best tacticians who ever lived.

Eisenhower was jumped over quite a number of senior officers because
George Marshall needed his ability to get people to cooperate.  The major
Allies all considered it to be "their" war, to be run as they saw fit. 
Eisenhower took this potentially chaotic situation and stroked, cajoled
and hammered it into an effective force working toward common and defined
goals.  That's what a good politician does.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sat Dec 16 16:48:53 PST 1995
Article: 16306 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHAT PATTON SAID (was: Is Griswold making things up again?)
Date: 16 Dec 1995 11:47:52 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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YFE writes:

>It's still Eisenhower.  As an acquaintance of mine was taught at
>West Point: "Amateurs talk about tactics, professionals talk about
logistics."

Which is why both Patton and Eisenhower stood in the shadow of George
Marshall.  They were all generals in every sense of the word.  They each
led the forces allotted to them in a very effective manner.  Patton the
tactician, Eisenhower the strategist, and Marshall the master strategist.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sat Dec 16 21:44:00 PST 1995
Article: 16288 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: General Question to Newsgroup
Date: 16 Dec 1995 10:09:40 -0500
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I agree with the comments made by rightaway@aol.com.  This newsgroup is
next to useless as a place to exchange ideas.  Vulgarity and harrassment
are routinely used to squelch conversation, and the departure of a
participant because of this brings forth calls of some kind of logical
victory in a debate that never took place.  The technique is the exact
equivalent of shouting in someone's face until they decide that there are
better things to do and better places to be.  The utility of the method is
obvious, but I personally think that it has no place on the Internet
except in something like alt.flame.  In a word or two, it sucks.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sat Dec 16 21:44:01 PST 1995
Article: 16293 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHAT PATTON SAID (was: Is Griswold making things up again?)
Date: 16 Dec 1995 10:18:39 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:10947 alt.politics.nationalism.white:8155 alt.discrimination:39587 alt.revisionism:16293

Keith Morrison writes:

>As for Eisenhower being a tactician, not really, nothing exceptional
there.  
>He was no more a superior tactician than is Colin Powell.  What he was
was a 
>strategist who could see the larger picture and accepted that war is the 
>continuation of politics by other means.  Wars are started for political 
>reasons and their ends must be decided by political means.

Excellent analysis, including the parts not quoted.  And George Patton was
one of the best tacticians who ever lived.

Eisenhower was jumped over quite a number of senior officers because
George Marshall needed his ability to get people to cooperate.  The major
Allies all considered it to be "their" war, to be run as they saw fit. 
Eisenhower took this potentially chaotic situation and stroked, cajoled
and hammered it into an effective force working toward common and defined
goals.  That's what a good politician does.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sat Dec 16 21:44:02 PST 1995
Article: 16306 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHAT PATTON SAID (was: Is Griswold making things up again?)
Date: 16 Dec 1995 11:47:52 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

YFE writes:

>It's still Eisenhower.  As an acquaintance of mine was taught at
>West Point: "Amateurs talk about tactics, professionals talk about
logistics."

Which is why both Patton and Eisenhower stood in the shadow of George
Marshall.  They were all generals in every sense of the word.  They each
led the forces allotted to them in a very effective manner.  Patton the
tactician, Eisenhower the strategist, and Marshall the master strategist.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sun Dec 17 09:23:25 PST 1995
Article: 16288 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: General Question to Newsgroup
Date: 16 Dec 1995 10:09:40 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

I agree with the comments made by rightaway@aol.com.  This newsgroup is
next to useless as a place to exchange ideas.  Vulgarity and harrassment
are routinely used to squelch conversation, and the departure of a
participant because of this brings forth calls of some kind of logical
victory in a debate that never took place.  The technique is the exact
equivalent of shouting in someone's face until they decide that there are
better things to do and better places to be.  The utility of the method is
obvious, but I personally think that it has no place on the Internet
except in something like alt.flame.  In a word or two, it sucks.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sun Dec 17 09:23:25 PST 1995
Article: 16293 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHAT PATTON SAID (was: Is Griswold making things up again?)
Date: 16 Dec 1995 10:18:39 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 27
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:10947 alt.politics.nationalism.white:8155 alt.discrimination:39587 alt.revisionism:16293

Keith Morrison writes:

>As for Eisenhower being a tactician, not really, nothing exceptional
there.  
>He was no more a superior tactician than is Colin Powell.  What he was
was a 
>strategist who could see the larger picture and accepted that war is the 
>continuation of politics by other means.  Wars are started for political 
>reasons and their ends must be decided by political means.

Excellent analysis, including the parts not quoted.  And George Patton was
one of the best tacticians who ever lived.

Eisenhower was jumped over quite a number of senior officers because
George Marshall needed his ability to get people to cooperate.  The major
Allies all considered it to be "their" war, to be run as they saw fit. 
Eisenhower took this potentially chaotic situation and stroked, cajoled
and hammered it into an effective force working toward common and defined
goals.  That's what a good politician does.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sun Dec 17 09:23:27 PST 1995
Article: 16306 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHAT PATTON SAID (was: Is Griswold making things up again?)
Date: 16 Dec 1995 11:47:52 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 18
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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References: <4auocf$9qh@news.enter.net>
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

YFE writes:

>It's still Eisenhower.  As an acquaintance of mine was taught at
>West Point: "Amateurs talk about tactics, professionals talk about
logistics."

Which is why both Patton and Eisenhower stood in the shadow of George
Marshall.  They were all generals in every sense of the word.  They each
led the forces allotted to them in a very effective manner.  Patton the
tactician, Eisenhower the strategist, and Marshall the master strategist.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sun Dec 17 09:23:37 PST 1995
Article: 16467 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Group conduct
Date: 17 Dec 1995 11:16:36 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 34
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

There's an interesting URL about freedom of speech on the Internet that
was written by some pros in the field.  Its address is:

http://baby.indstate.edu/msattler/culture/comp/free-speech.html

They discuss how certain tactics can screw up communication, and what
should and should not be done about it, particularly as regards bugging
system administrators about something you don't like.  It's worth a read.

A sample quote about alternatives:

> * (A)dding to the noise by flaming the poster(s) on the news-group
>
>Even less desireable, this makes you look like an intolerant fool,
>undercuts your future credibility,
>wastes other readers time, derails further the discussion of the
>news-group subject, and in (general is)
>considered making a nuisance of oneself.

The capitalized (A) and (general is) are my editing.

_But_then_again_,_maybe_some_folks_enjoy_being_LITTLE MORE THAN A
NUISANCE.  It beats being nothing, except in the eyes of the beholders.




-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sun Dec 17 10:55:13 PST 1995
Article: 8155 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHAT PATTON SAID (was: Is Griswold making things up again?)
Date: 16 Dec 1995 10:18:39 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 27
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:10947 alt.politics.nationalism.white:8155 alt.discrimination:39587 alt.revisionism:16293

Keith Morrison writes:

>As for Eisenhower being a tactician, not really, nothing exceptional
there.  
>He was no more a superior tactician than is Colin Powell.  What he was
was a 
>strategist who could see the larger picture and accepted that war is the 
>continuation of politics by other means.  Wars are started for political 
>reasons and their ends must be decided by political means.

Excellent analysis, including the parts not quoted.  And George Patton was
one of the best tacticians who ever lived.

Eisenhower was jumped over quite a number of senior officers because
George Marshall needed his ability to get people to cooperate.  The major
Allies all considered it to be "their" war, to be run as they saw fit. 
Eisenhower took this potentially chaotic situation and stroked, cajoled
and hammered it into an effective force working toward common and defined
goals.  That's what a good politician does.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sun Dec 17 15:08:48 PST 1995
Article: 8155 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHAT PATTON SAID (was: Is Griswold making things up again?)
Date: 16 Dec 1995 10:18:39 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 27
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:10947 alt.politics.nationalism.white:8155 alt.discrimination:39587 alt.revisionism:16293

Keith Morrison writes:

>As for Eisenhower being a tactician, not really, nothing exceptional
there.  
>He was no more a superior tactician than is Colin Powell.  What he was
was a 
>strategist who could see the larger picture and accepted that war is the 
>continuation of politics by other means.  Wars are started for political 
>reasons and their ends must be decided by political means.

Excellent analysis, including the parts not quoted.  And George Patton was
one of the best tacticians who ever lived.

Eisenhower was jumped over quite a number of senior officers because
George Marshall needed his ability to get people to cooperate.  The major
Allies all considered it to be "their" war, to be run as they saw fit. 
Eisenhower took this potentially chaotic situation and stroked, cajoled
and hammered it into an effective force working toward common and defined
goals.  That's what a good politician does.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sun Dec 17 15:26:23 PST 1995
Article: 10947 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHAT PATTON SAID (was: Is Griswold making things up again?)
Date: 16 Dec 1995 10:18:39 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 27
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:10947 alt.politics.nationalism.white:8155 alt.discrimination:39587 alt.revisionism:16293

Keith Morrison writes:

>As for Eisenhower being a tactician, not really, nothing exceptional
there.  
>He was no more a superior tactician than is Colin Powell.  What he was
was a 
>strategist who could see the larger picture and accepted that war is the 
>continuation of politics by other means.  Wars are started for political 
>reasons and their ends must be decided by political means.

Excellent analysis, including the parts not quoted.  And George Patton was
one of the best tacticians who ever lived.

Eisenhower was jumped over quite a number of senior officers because
George Marshall needed his ability to get people to cooperate.  The major
Allies all considered it to be "their" war, to be run as they saw fit. 
Eisenhower took this potentially chaotic situation and stroked, cajoled
and hammered it into an effective force working toward common and defined
goals.  That's what a good politician does.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Thu Dec 21 09:44:20 PST 1995
Article: 17151 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Bacque replies to Ambrose
Date: 21 Dec 1995 10:21:36 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

D. Keren presented some comments from one Ambrose Bierce that purport to
debunk Mr. Bacque's book Other Losses in total.  The comments were taken
>from  a book review published in a newspaper and they are patently
inaccurate.  The fact is that the designation "Other Losses" in the Allied
prisoner of war camp reports in Europe meant exactly what you would expect
-- deaths and escapes.  This was first confirmed by a U.S. Army officer
who was involved in handling the reports, Col. Philip S. Lauben.  Lauben
subsequently received enough pressure and publicity to cause him to issue
a terse retraction of his statement, and then refuse to discuss the matter
again with anyone.  Such is the power of a taboo.  However, his statement
was then confirmed as described in the statement from Bacque which
follows.

Keren fails to mention that Ambrose's review was in large part an
unsubstantiated personal attack on Bacque, due in no small part to the
pressures put on him for his initial supportive comments about Bacque's
work.  Academia can be hell when you won't go along with the program.

**
What follows is the text of a letter written by James Bacque in response
to criticisms leveled by Ambrose and supporters against Other Losses.  It
was published in the Times Literary Supplement on August 20, 1993.
****

Sir,

It is every writer's delight to be attacked in a famous journal by a
confused critic, so my thanks go to John Keegan for airing his views on my
work in the TLS on July 23. 

Mr Keegan has been misled by the editors of the book, "Eisenhower and the
German POWs: Facts against falsehood," which he cites to refute me. The
principal editor, Stephen E. Ambrose, clearly does not know what he thinks
>from  day to day, because he has varied wildly from strong approval of my
book, "Other Losses," to snarling slanders of me personally, together with
buffoonish misrepresentations of American army policies. Having kindly
read my manuscript, he wrote to me as follows:

(Ambrose) "I am not arguing with the basic truth of your discovery...you
have the goods on these guys, you have the quotes from those who were
present and saw with their own eyes, you have the broad outline of a truth
so terrible I really can't bear it...you really have made a major
historical discovery..." It appears from the latest Ambrose writings that,
indeed, the truth was something he could not bear. 

The same might be said for his co-editor, Gunter Bischof, an Austrian.
Keegan admires the "scholarship" of Bischof, but Bischof does not know a
displaced persons camp from a prison camp. He chastises me for stating
that there was a US Army prison camp at Ebensee in Austria: he says that
the camp was for DPs. In fact, I have photocopies of General Mark Clark's
secret report about the condition of prisoners of war in the camp, plus US
Army medical reports of prisoners in the camp, plus eyewitness accounts of
the catastrophe among dozens of thousands of prisoners, including the
manuscript of a diary kept by the priest Franz Loidl who ministered to the
dying. This manuscript is on deposit in the Church History Institute of
the Catholic Theological Faculty, University of Vienna. 

In the same book so admired by Keegan is a gross error made by Rudiger
Overmanns, who does not even know the number of prisoners taken by the
Americans. This was not 3.8 million as he says, but over 6 million,
according to US Army records in Suitland, Maryland. Of course, this error,
conveniently for Ambrose and Keegan, apparently diminishes the number of
lives for which the Americans were responsible. 

Underlying the Ambrose-Bischof book is a series on German prisoners edited
by Erich Maschke. Underlying that series is no important documentation
>from  the US Army archives in Washington. The author of the book on the
American camps casually omits all the significant records that survived
the paper purges of the late 1940s. However, for an expert judgment on the
condition of American camps Mr Keegan may rely on the words of an American
Lieutenant-Colonel who was in charge of the camps in France in 1945. In a
report preserved at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, Lieutenant-Colonel Henry W.
Allard wrote that "the standards of PW camps in the Com Z in Europe
compare as only slightly better or even with the living conditions of the
Japanese PW camps our men tell us about, and unfavourably with those of
the Germans". Let us remember that after the war, the Americans executed
Japanese for precisely the crimes referred to by Allard. 

Mr Keegan does not accept the definition of the term "Other Losses" given
me by Colonel Philip S. Lauben. He is unaware of the US Army report
discovered by Richard Boylan, a senior archivist at the US National
Archives, which confirms Lauben. The report plainly states that the "Other
Loses" category of prisoners meant deaths and escapes. And finally, of
course, 1,700,000 Germans, plus hundreds of thousands of other Europeans,
are still missing from their families. This astounding fact is normally
neglected by the Western apologists, unless they can also use it to hammer
the Soviets, saying they all died in the Gulag. But now that the Soviets
are gone, their archives are open and the truth at last emerges. 

That truth is simple. The Soviets took some 4.1 million prisoners of war
east and west, of whom some 600,000 died in slavery. Of the total take,
some 2.4 million were Germans. Of these, some 450,600 died, the rest were
sent home. Subtracting the 450,600 dead Germans from the missing 1.7
million, we see that some 1.25 million are still not accounted for. Of
these, probably 100,000 - 200,000 died in Polish, Yugoslavian and other
camps. The number remaining is very nearly the number I said in "Other
Losses" of those who died among all Europeans taken prisoner in the West. 

I wonder if Mr Keegan will consult the Soviet records before attacking
them? The surprising thing about the Soviet records is that they are
extensive, detailed, accurate and incriminating. For instance, on the
subject of prisoners of war, these archives display a dossier for each
prisoner, complete with capture records, biographical information,
legal,labour and medical history, including X-ray photographs, and so on.
The average is about fifteen pages per person. The dossier of Nobel prize
winner Konrad Lorenz, the Austrian zoologist contains two hundred pages
about him and his work. No such records exist anywhere in the West. In
months of work in the archives of the West, I was never able to find the
dossier for a single one of the 9 or so million prisoners held. Not one.
But in the first hour in the NKVD/KGB archives, I found the archival boxes
containing over 4 million personal dossiers. I was allowed to walk up and
down the aisles, and take down and photocopy any box I chose at random,
and did so. I have scores of photocopies of those records here in Toronto,
and Mr Keegan is welcome to consult them. Or he may wish to visit Moscow.
He will find interesting information beginning with the story of the
Japanese prisoners. The Japanese authorities have long since determined
that some 62,000 of their prisoners, chiefly in the Kwantung Army, died in
the Gulag. The Soviets lied to the Japanese government for years about the
number of deaths, first saying 3,800 had died, then about 4,000, then
around 35,000. Finally, the Soviet archives were opened, and mirabile
dictu, the death certificates were all there, totalling very nearly
62,000. 

Do I hear Keegan protesting that Japan is not Germany? On his visit to
Moscow, he may see for himself the Soviet records showing that the
prisoners of various nationalities were often mixed together in the same
camp, so that Japanese were enslaved beside Germans, were all treated the
same way, and died in approximately the same ratio of much the same
causes. Letters to me from individual prisoners and records at the Hoover
Institution in Stanford all show independently of the Soviet archives that
this was the case in more than thirty major camps. 

Let me also remind Keegan that the Poles long accused the Soviets of
massacring some 14,000 officers at Katyn, but that the Soviet archives
reveal that the true total was around 21,000. If John Keegan and his
friends wish to attack the authenticity of the Soviet archives, they are
going to have to show that the fragmentary documents in the Western
archives, airy with lacunae and poxed with evasions, are superior to these
tremendous archives which incriminate its masters for a horrifying crime
against humanity. What will they say then? That the Soviets are hiding
something? 

James Bacque
422 Heath Street East 
Toronto, Ontario, Canada 

****

Ambrose Bierce is, of course, a humorist.  So is the prof.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Fri Dec 22 02:49:42 PST 1995
Article: 17264 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baque on Ambrose
Date: 21 Dec 1995 14:16:56 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 29
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Keith Morrison writes:

>Could someone tell me why this message is word for word the same, except
for 
>the last few lines as DbtgThomas in <4bbu20$djd@newsbf02.news.aol.com>?
>
>Anyone?

Sure.  It's not word for word the same, as you note.  It's a short
response to a long post that I wasn't about to punctuate as a quote line
for line and didn't recall the author's name.  I had copied the text of
the post to archive it, and after noting the "Ambrose Bierce" comment in
the beginning, decided to reply to it.  The original post wasn't in the
listing that came up, so I pasted in the text (with spelling corrections
on Bacque's name) and appended my brief comment at the bottom.  Tried to
recall the original title and only came close as it turns out.

I still don't know why the posts listed come and go the way they do, guess
it has to do with how Usenet operates on many machines.  Some posts last
for months with no activity, others disappear and reappear at odd
intervals.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Fri Dec 22 13:16:11 PST 1995
Article: 17342 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Bacque, Baque and Zyklon
Date: 22 Dec 1995 12:30:54 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 23
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Once again a post makes about a 15 minute appearance and floats away.  Ah
well, you snooze, you lose.

Keith Morrison wrote:

>(speculation about screen names)

I've always thought that the proper belief system for anyone is what makes
them most comfortable.  If that's the case here, Keith, then go for it.  I
don't see any harm, nor even reason for offense.  Don't quit your day job
just yet, though. :-)

>(calls for civil discussion to continue a lapsed thread on Zyklon)

Here we are in agreement.  Thank you for making the suggestion.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Dec 27 08:52:27 PST 1995
Article: 17552 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: linguistic problems
Date: 26 Dec 1995 22:05:04 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Mike Stein writes:

>_That_ is genuine wit, and points up what I think is a very sad thing
>in American society: the decline of foreign language education.  An
>expectation that everybody else has to cater to us and learn English 
>strikes me as pretty damn arrogant.

Well, they say that California is at the forefront of social change, so
there may be a dent made in that stance because Spanish is soon going to
be required just to find your way around town.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Dec 27 08:52:29 PST 1995
Article: 17560 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: linguistic problems
Date: 27 Dec 1995 08:32:09 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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References: 
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

I do have one concern regarding this dispute, since it has now escalated
with a stiff protest from Sweden directed at France.  Are American troops
going to be required to settle this?

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Dec 27 08:52:30 PST 1995
Article: 17562 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AUSCHWITZ: A COUNTER FAQ
Date: 27 Dec 1995 08:42:08 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
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Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

>There is no 'zyclon-B generator.'

He's obviously referring the the source of the HCN.  In that sense, a pile
of pellets is indeed a "generator".

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Dec 27 19:48:06 PST 1995
Article: 17619 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An American's visit to Dachau
Date: 27 Dec 1995 13:48:08 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

>: I'm sure this would make a nice poem but it certainly doesn't make 
>: good history.
>
>So you are saying that I lied? That I did not visit Dachau?

I don't get anything like that from his remark.  I think he's indicating
that you wrote a nice lyrical piece, and then commenting that it doesn't
contain much historical detail, which, as I recall, is correct.  Maybe
he'll explain.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Fri Dec 29 11:07:10 PST 1995
Article: 17879 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST FAQ: Willis Carto & The Institute for Historical Review (2/2)
Date: 29 Dec 1995 02:12:42 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)

I can't figure it.  Interesting threads dissapear within hours, and
something useless like this one sits here every damned time I look through
the listings.  Might as well work with what's here I suppose.

> I see that you have included over 1500 lines of text in two
> articles to post two one-line twitticisms as above.  That's
> considered very rude, 
>
>It looks like Mr. Stein has given Mr. Moran a new "clonism" to
>complain about: "Mr. Moran is very rude!"

What strikes me as rude is posting deadly dull lengthy stuff like this on
a repeat basis.  It occupies huge amounts of space and is put forth again,
and again, and again.  Why not wait for some requests or something?


-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Fri Dec 29 11:07:11 PST 1995
Article: 17884 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ken Mcvay GSA
Date: 29 Dec 1995 02:23:02 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:9386 alt.politics.white-power:12535 alt.revisionism:17884

The following is an excerpt from a post in this thread by Jamie McCarthy,
which he also emailed to me (I bitch a lot about the trashy level of
speech in what is called debate in this misbegotten excuse for civilized
discourse).

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
This thread is a good example of why the level of
conversation in alt.revisionism is not always as high-quality as it
could be.

xyz@scsn.net (Racial Theorist) wrote:

> you still don't understand, do you JACKASS?  i'll try to explain it
> one more time where even a TARHEAD like you can understand.  our
> comments about kenny mcvay pumping gas have nothing to do with the way
> we regard manual labor.  NOTHING.  you get that, thickhead?  what it
> has to do with is that we think it's really ironic that after the libs
> make fun of manual laborers for so long, kenny keeps his big mouth
> shut.  but as soon as one of us says, "filler up, kenny!", then kenny
> and the rest of you DIPSHITS start going on about the virtues of
> manual labor.
> funny, you never said anything about it before.  there were plenty of
> opportunities.
> 
> filler up, kenny!  high test.  and when you go home tonight, i want
> you to make sure you get my articles archived correctly.
> 
> in loyal service to the white race,
@@@@@@@@@

This excerpt is an example of how one person chooses to talk.  I can make
a couple of quick comments about it.

First, he seems to be doing about as well as he can do.  Second, why in
God's name would anyone want to take up that shitty gauntlet?  Are you
squirrely enough to be reached by this dreck?  If so, you've got self
esteem problems beyond the scope of this discussion, and if not, then why
do you want to converse with someone on that level?  I wouldn't, and as a
matter of maintaining self respect, I don't.  The fact that he chooses to
be a gutter mouth does not excuse the same being done by anyone who ought
to know better.  I get irritated when people who have demonstrated that
they can speak intelligently decide that your having breached some
unwritten code of conduct or offended any of a vast number of minor
deities with a disrespectful comment, witting or otherwise, gives them
license to launch into something like the above.  I have no quarrel with
any fucking degree of profanity, providing it is not gratuitously directed
at someone or used as a primary component of what purports to be logic.  A
well placed curse can provide good emphasis, but it sure as hell doesn't
make an argument.  Nor does immediately resorting to labeling someone you
disagree with a liar or an idiot or a Nazi or morally bankrupt further
anybody's cause.  How the fuck can you make that kind of judgement about a
person based on the tiny amount of verbiage they present here, for reasons
you may not have a clue to?

I disagree with a great many of the views expressed here.  The views, mind
you, not the people who express them.  They have that right, just as I do,
just as we all do until people who view differences of opinion as evil
step in and step on all our rights in the name of tunnel vision goodness. 
I don't know the people who post here.  I have no reason and no basis to
call their characters into question.  To do so is at once presumptive and
non-productive.  People who do not agree with me are not automatically
assholes.  If they were, there would be several million brown faces with
one puckered eye in this state alone.  The ability to disagree and discuss
it is one of the precious things a free society affords, and I respect
anyone with the gumption to turn away from the goddamned TV set and speak
their mind.  Respect is due because in doing so they are helping to
maintain a basic right.  The fact that I may find their opinions appalling
and their reasoning specious alters that not one whit.

We can't all stay 14 years old forever.  Let's grow up, talk about these
matters in a civil manner and maybe learn something in the process.  I
already know how to curse and insult.  Don't need any more practice, don't
want any illustrations, especially if they're directed at me.  That's all.
 A person shouldn't have to explain this shit to adults.

Peace.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Fri Dec 29 12:06:00 PST 1995
Article: 21169 of can.politics
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: tor.general,ont.general,can.politics,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: The start of the PC correct internet
Date: 29 Dec 1995 11:11:51 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 24
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4c1407$33t@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca ont.general:29533 can.politics:21169 alt.revisionism:17935 alt.politics.nationalism.white:9436 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:59 alt.censorship:59428

Mike Stein makes a valid point about the proposed rating system, that on
the surface it offers no direct threat of complete censorship.  A
potential worry, however, is what happens with time.  Maybe somebody in
the world still makes Beta VCR equipment, but it's now so hard to get
because of the preponderance of VHS (or whatever the standard is called)
that my stacks of old Beta tapes are effectively inaccessible.  With
organizations like Micrsoft dominating the software industry the parallels
seem obvious.  Of course, much of the useful on-line software comes from
educational settings and individuals, so maybe my worry is misplaced. 
Hope so, but morals police are a driven lot, and they won't stop easily. 
For a fascinating peek into a conzealed mind, read Carrie Nation's
autobiography.

And, too, you wonder what kind of rating alt.revisionism is going to get. 
Or unmoderated newsgroups in general.  I think the Web came along at the
right time.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Fri Dec 29 12:31:49 PST 1995
Article: 59 of alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: tor.general,ont.general,can.politics,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: The start of the PC correct internet
Date: 29 Dec 1995 11:11:51 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 24
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4c1407$33t@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4c0po7$muq@access2.digex.net>
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca ont.general:29533 can.politics:21169 alt.revisionism:17935 alt.politics.nationalism.white:9436 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:59 alt.censorship:59428

Mike Stein makes a valid point about the proposed rating system, that on
the surface it offers no direct threat of complete censorship.  A
potential worry, however, is what happens with time.  Maybe somebody in
the world still makes Beta VCR equipment, but it's now so hard to get
because of the preponderance of VHS (or whatever the standard is called)
that my stacks of old Beta tapes are effectively inaccessible.  With
organizations like Micrsoft dominating the software industry the parallels
seem obvious.  Of course, much of the useful on-line software comes from
educational settings and individuals, so maybe my worry is misplaced. 
Hope so, but morals police are a driven lot, and they won't stop easily. 
For a fascinating peek into a conzealed mind, read Carrie Nation's
autobiography.

And, too, you wonder what kind of rating alt.revisionism is going to get. 
Or unmoderated newsgroups in general.  I think the Web came along at the
right time.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Fri Dec 29 18:16:54 PST 1995
Article: 21233 of can.politics
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: tor.general,ont.general,can.politics,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: The start of the PC correct internet
Date: 29 Dec 1995 17:10:26 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4c1p0i$aam@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4c1407$33t@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca ont.general:29559 can.politics:21233 alt.revisionism:17978 alt.politics.nationalism.white:9455 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:60 alt.censorship:59471

Well, it looks like Germany went about as PC as you can get, Internet
speaking.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Fri Dec 29 19:10:34 PST 1995
Article: 17978 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: tor.general,ont.general,can.politics,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: The start of the PC correct internet
Date: 29 Dec 1995 17:10:26 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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References: <4c1407$33t@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca ont.general:29559 can.politics:21233 alt.revisionism:17978 alt.politics.nationalism.white:9455 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:60 alt.censorship:59471

Well, it looks like Germany went about as PC as you can get, Internet
speaking.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Fri Dec 29 19:12:02 PST 1995
Article: 9455 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: tor.general,ont.general,can.politics,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: The start of the PC correct internet
Date: 29 Dec 1995 17:10:26 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4c1p0i$aam@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4c1407$33t@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca ont.general:29559 can.politics:21233 alt.revisionism:17978 alt.politics.nationalism.white:9455 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:60 alt.censorship:59471

Well, it looks like Germany went about as PC as you can get, Internet
speaking.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sat Dec 30 09:49:38 PST 1995
Article: 18023 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: tor.general,ont.general,can.politics,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: The start of the PC correct internet
Date: 29 Dec 1995 02:22:09 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 104
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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References: 
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca ont.general:29578 can.politics:21297 alt.revisionism:18023 alt.politics.nationalism.white:9508 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:61

Received this today.  Bowdler must be grinning in his grave.

Subj:  Rating the Web
Date:  Thu, Dec 28, 1995 1:13 PM EDT
***
To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (dbtgthomas)

Web Ratings Plan Almost Ready
12/13 04:38 PM
Category:   Financial news Keywords:   Web-Conference  
__________________________________________________________________________
___________

^*1310< ^AP-Web-Conference<,0519<
^Web Ratings Plan Almost Ready<<

     BOSTON (AP) _ A technical method that will let information on
the World Wide Web be rated like movies or video games is nearly
done, developers said Wednesday, but important questions remain
about its use.

     The technique was developed by the World Wide Web Consortium, a
group of more than 90 companies and universities. A draft has been
available on the Web, a portion of the Internet, for public comment
since last month.

     The consortium committee responsible for the technique will
close the comment period next month and may make some changes
before declaring it available for use.

     ``Implementation is far from a slam dunk,'' Brian Ek, a vice
president of Prodigy Services Co. who is co-chairman of a committee
working on the idea, said during a panel at the Fourth
International World Wide Web Conference.

     The effort began in August in response to congressional
pressure. Last week, congressional negotiators reached a compromise
on regulating offensive on-line material. A telecommunications bill
would outlaw pornographic and obscene material but protect on-line
access providers from liability.

     Some on-line advocates have sharply criticized the measure,
citing problems with defining obscenity and enforcement.

     The consortium is only interested in providing a method for
rating, not determining how content is rated.

     ``With the right tools, we don't need so many rules,'' said Paul
Resnick, director of the public policy office at the AT&T Research
Laboratories and a developer of the technique.

     The consortium will encourage producers of Web content to rate
themselves and other groups to develop rating standards. In
addition, software needs to be developed to filter out material
based on its rating.

     Consumers are not going to be confronted by the familiar G, PG,
PG-13, R, X and NC ratings. Instead, many different ratings methods
are likely.

     Several groups are already thinking about developing rating
scales and companies that make filtering software, such as
SurfWatch, are keeping an eye on developments so they can adapt
their products.

     ``We hope (the technique) will allow us to go into a Web site
and rate smaller parts,'' said Steve Balkam of the Recreational
Software Advisory Panel, one group that is considering providing a
rating service.

     Different values can be represented by different ratings.

     ``I'd like to see lots of rating services and many choices of
selection software,'' Resnick said.

     But several Web creators complained to the panel they may
ultimately be forced to spend more time working with various rating
groups than creating information for the Web.

     They said filtering software may come along that doesn't allow
access to any material that is unrated, a development that would
harm the reach of the Web.

     ___<

     A copy of the rating technique proposed by the Web consortium
can be found at http://www.w3.org/PICS

     AP-NY-12-13-95 1838EST<


END OF FILE-> WIREREADY NEWSWIRE SYSTEMS INC.

_________________________________________
Copyright 1995, The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved


-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sat Dec 30 11:00:33 PST 1995
Article: 9578 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: R.C. Richards, Davy Padgett, "Racial Theorist" are all code words for "Whiner"
Date: 30 Dec 1995 12:51:12 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 27
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4c3u6g$2q8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:18097 alt.politics.white-power:12769 alt.politics.nationalism.white:9578

>but how defensive he gets at the idea of his 
>implicit threats being referred to the authorities.    
>
>Tsk, tsk, oh, chicken-shit aryan warrior.  Afraid of the cops?  

I haven't followed this at all, so these comments are generic and applied
to this post as a potential example, not a confirmed one.

It strikes me that extreme accusatory rhetoric, and particularly
unwarranted complaints to administrators, serves to strengthen the
perception of outsiders that something "bad" is going on in this or other
newsgroups.  Censorship fever is descending on the Internet.  Try to
settle your squabbles yourself if you can, and don't resort to calling on
Big Brother because you don't like somebody or because you think they went
over the line with insults.  This is a cheap trick decried in more than
one writeup on netiquette.  Ignore them or flame them, but handle it
yourself, like a big boy.  J. McCarthy wrote an apology for the verbal
rowdiness here by comparing it to a cocktail party.  Are you gonna be the
guy who calls the cops on your own party?  Chill out, dude.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sat Dec 30 12:09:14 PST 1995
Article: 12769 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: R.C. Richards, Davy Padgett, "Racial Theorist" are all code words for "Whiner"
Date: 30 Dec 1995 12:51:12 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 27
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4c3u6g$2q8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:18097 alt.politics.white-power:12769 alt.politics.nationalism.white:9578

>but how defensive he gets at the idea of his 
>implicit threats being referred to the authorities.    
>
>Tsk, tsk, oh, chicken-shit aryan warrior.  Afraid of the cops?  

I haven't followed this at all, so these comments are generic and applied
to this post as a potential example, not a confirmed one.

It strikes me that extreme accusatory rhetoric, and particularly
unwarranted complaints to administrators, serves to strengthen the
perception of outsiders that something "bad" is going on in this or other
newsgroups.  Censorship fever is descending on the Internet.  Try to
settle your squabbles yourself if you can, and don't resort to calling on
Big Brother because you don't like somebody or because you think they went
over the line with insults.  This is a cheap trick decried in more than
one writeup on netiquette.  Ignore them or flame them, but handle it
yourself, like a big boy.  J. McCarthy wrote an apology for the verbal
rowdiness here by comparing it to a cocktail party.  Are you gonna be the
guy who calls the cops on your own party?  Chill out, dude.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sat Dec 30 18:22:19 PST 1995
Article: 18097 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: R.C. Richards, Davy Padgett, "Racial Theorist" are all code words for "Whiner"
Date: 30 Dec 1995 12:51:12 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 27
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4c3u6g$2q8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:18097 alt.politics.white-power:12769 alt.politics.nationalism.white:9578

>but how defensive he gets at the idea of his 
>implicit threats being referred to the authorities.    
>
>Tsk, tsk, oh, chicken-shit aryan warrior.  Afraid of the cops?  

I haven't followed this at all, so these comments are generic and applied
to this post as a potential example, not a confirmed one.

It strikes me that extreme accusatory rhetoric, and particularly
unwarranted complaints to administrators, serves to strengthen the
perception of outsiders that something "bad" is going on in this or other
newsgroups.  Censorship fever is descending on the Internet.  Try to
settle your squabbles yourself if you can, and don't resort to calling on
Big Brother because you don't like somebody or because you think they went
over the line with insults.  This is a cheap trick decried in more than
one writeup on netiquette.  Ignore them or flame them, but handle it
yourself, like a big boy.  J. McCarthy wrote an apology for the verbal
rowdiness here by comparing it to a cocktail party.  Are you gonna be the
guy who calls the cops on your own party?  Chill out, dude.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sat Dec 30 21:20:53 PST 1995
Article: 18097 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: R.C. Richards, Davy Padgett, "Racial Theorist" are all code words for "Whiner"
Date: 30 Dec 1995 12:51:12 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 27
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4c3u6g$2q8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:18097 alt.politics.white-power:12769 alt.politics.nationalism.white:9578

>but how defensive he gets at the idea of his 
>implicit threats being referred to the authorities.    
>
>Tsk, tsk, oh, chicken-shit aryan warrior.  Afraid of the cops?  

I haven't followed this at all, so these comments are generic and applied
to this post as a potential example, not a confirmed one.

It strikes me that extreme accusatory rhetoric, and particularly
unwarranted complaints to administrators, serves to strengthen the
perception of outsiders that something "bad" is going on in this or other
newsgroups.  Censorship fever is descending on the Internet.  Try to
settle your squabbles yourself if you can, and don't resort to calling on
Big Brother because you don't like somebody or because you think they went
over the line with insults.  This is a cheap trick decried in more than
one writeup on netiquette.  Ignore them or flame them, but handle it
yourself, like a big boy.  J. McCarthy wrote an apology for the verbal
rowdiness here by comparing it to a cocktail party.  Are you gonna be the
guy who calls the cops on your own party?  Chill out, dude.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sun Dec 31 08:56:05 PST 1995
Article: 18158 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: a counter FAQ
Date: 30 Dec 1995 13:01:36 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 22
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4c3uq0$2vi@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4c30g4$lik@nimitz.fibr.net>
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

>Proof, M. Beaulieu, please. The ability for HCN to 'paste' on the walls
and
>the floor belies the fact that it is a gas. Granted _some_  gas will be
adsorbed
>onto a porous surface but Mr. Beaulieu presents no evidence as to the
>quantities or binding abilities of the different surfaces that compose
the
>gas chambers.

HCN has great penetrative abilities and will collect in high
concentrations in crevices and porous surfaces, much like NaOH in boiler
water lines.  Beyond that, it does have an affinity for surfaces that I
believe is mentioned in the DuPont brochure.  Will look that up and
comment.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Jan  1 00:31:01 PST 1996
Article: 18254 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does HCN have evil intelligence?
Date: 31 Dec 1995 12:46:33 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 83
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4c6i9p$17i@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Mike Stein wrote:

>You know, I keep seeing this statement as if it proved some sort of
>point - apparently that it would have been too dangerous to enter the
>chamber after only twenty minutes or so of powered ventilation.

I don't see it as proving anything beyond what it says -- that some amount
of HCN residual will disperse from surfaces more slowly than the gas in
the air can be vented.  This presents only the potential for a problem. 
Whether it truly is a problem or not must be demonstrated in some manner,
else no problem can be said to exist.

>Let us assume that it does stick.  Why is that a problem?

It is potentially a problem because it is poisonous to human beings.  "It"
refers to gaseous HCN, which is described in the technical literature as
having adsorptive properties (tends to attach itself loosely to surfaces),
and will also condense easily on cold surfaces.  Whether this would be a
problem depends on how much material is involved, and that is not even to
the stage of being speculated on at this time.  Apparently it is enough to
rate mentioning in the handling and use procedures, so the danger at some
point can indeed be there.  To what extent is dependent on the details of
a specific case (air concentration of HCN, temperature, type of wall
surface, time, ventilation efficiency).  It is presented as simply one
more factor to consider.  No conclusions can immediately be drawn from the
technically correct assertion that there will be a clinging residue on
surfaces before and for some time during ventilation.

>If it tenaciously holds on to surfaces even in the face of a powerful
>ventilation fan, then why should it present a danger to a person - even
>one without a gas mask - in the room?  Is HCN endowed with malicious
>intelligence, such that it will stick to the wall while the fan is going,
>but when the fan is off and a person walks in, they will all suddenly
>detach themselves from the walls where they have craftily been lying in
>wait, and instead of diffusing in random directions as properly-behaved
>gas molecules should, all race in unison up the person's nose in order to
>kill him? 
>
>    Again, what am I failing to see here?

Well, I sincerely hope you're not really seeing what you describe in this
paragraph!-)  What you're failing to see is the same phenomenon that
happens when you leave your refrigerator door standing open.  Water vapor
in the air will condense as liquid on the cold surface. How much depends
on how much water is in the air, and how cold the door is.  If you then
turned on a dehumidifier to lower the concentration of water vapor in the
surrounding air, the liquid on the surface of the door would gradually
evaporate in response to the falling concentration of gaseous water
molecules above its surface, but it wouldn't evaporate instantly.  It
would eventually evaporate entirely even if the door somehow remained
cold, so long as the concentration in the air surrounding becomes and
remains low.

The "malicious intelligence" involved is simply the natural property every
liquid has to vary its rate of evaporation in response to the temperature
and the concentration of its own gaseous molecules in the air in contact
with its surface.  As the concentration in the air increases, evaporation
rate slows, finally reaching an equilibrium point where exactly as many
molecules leave the liquid state through evaporation as enter it via
condensation.  This addresses the case of droplets or thin liquid films of
HCN that have condensed.  The adsorptive and penetrative pockets of gas in
crevices and on rough surfaces act in a similar manner, but their rate of
dispersion will be different than that of evaporation, probably more rapid
since there is no phase change involved.  Again, at what point this
creates a hazard is condition dependent.  You cannot make a flat statement
one way or the other without reference to the parameters of a particular
case.  I would say that this question is not a major point, but it cannot
simply be dismissed.

To summarize, as the room is ventilated and the concentration of gas in
the air falls, HCN on surfaces will begin to evaporate.  It does not do
this instantly, and it will not disperse as quickly as the gas already in
the air can be removed with a fan.  There will always be a time lag
between the two.  Question is, how much?  The question is valid.  Finding
an answer to it is one of the reasons for having this sort of discussion.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Jan  1 00:31:01 PST 1996
Article: 18264 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Importance of the Jewish Tale of Woe
Date: 31 Dec 1995 13:34:25 -0500
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Charles Power writes:

>But although you will find many arguments about Columbus coming to the 
>New World in 1492, for instance, you don't find many interested in 
>debating whether he came or not. That's pretty well-established history. 
>(This is an analogy.)

The analogy works pretty well.  Couple of comments.  First, our knowledge
of exactly where he landed, and numerous other details of interest about
his voyage, are still pretty speculative.  Second, note that the idea that
he was the first European to "discover" the American continents became so
powerfully entrenched in U.S. and European lore that it is still believed
by a great many today, despite archeological evidence that clearly shows
old Chris to have been a relative latecomer to the neighborhood.  See, for
instance, "America B.C." by Barry Fell, 1976, Simon & Schuster.  Fell was
with the Museum of Comparative Zoology at Harvard University when the book
was published, and he presents compelling evidence that the Western
hemisphere was visited and colonized by various North African and European
civilizations over the past several thousand years.  Some groups of
Americans of Italian descent have shown particular dislike for this bit of
historical revisionism, but it will gradually displace Columbus because
there is no compelling reason to fight the new knowledge.  (Nor any move
to put it in place rapidly, for that matter.)

While we're on this subject, the case of arguing whether or not the earth
is flat is often mentioned here to scoff at questions that are posed in
this discussion group.  i.e. -- Questioning this or that thing is as
ludicrous as arguing that the earth is flat, you are laughably stupid for
even asking.  That's one view, a little on the churlish side.

Let's say that you are talking to someone who has not been exposed to
modern education.  An intelligent member of some remote tribe in the
jungles of Asia or the South Pacific.  From the viewpoint of an ordinary
human standing on the surface of the earth, the reasons to think of it as
a flat surface are obvious.  It looks flat, except on very careful and
subtle observation.  The observations required to observe and confirm the
curvature are in fact so subtle and sufficiently technical, that entire
civilizations existed without ever being aware of it.  Primitive myth
systems abound with tales of the awful things that lay in wait at the
edge, where a man could fall off into oblivion and into the realms of
monsters.  One of the primitive societies suffering from this delusion was
much of medieval Europe, I believe.

Anyway, your friend thinks you're crazy when you tell him that the earth
is not flat, it's really round just like a coconut.  In turn, you could
scoff at him, laugh and tell him he's incredibly stupid, and he'll see the
light right away, won't he?  Like hell.  He will still believe that the
earth is flat, and will also have acquired a new (and correct) belief that
you are an asshole.  How much more interesting and educational and
effective for you both if you simply set about demonstrating to your
ignorant friend how any person can prove to themselves that the earth is
round.  Every educated person "knows" this, but very few know how to prove
it.  What they "know" is what they have been told by others, and the
average man's direct knowledge of this is as devoid of detail as the
opposite view held by his primitive friend.  More so, in fact.  He at
least has the hard to refute fact backing his view that it looks flat. 
You'll have a hard time making a case that it looks spherical.

But if you take the time to either reason or read on the matter, then you
could explain to him with drawings and examples, how to interpret things
like the difference in the angles of shadows at different places on the
earth's surface at the same time of day.  A moderately intelligent person
can look at a carefully drawn diagram and reach the same conclusion as the
ancient Greeks and others -- that the angles only make sense if the items
casting shadows are standing on the surface of a sphere with their top and
bottom alignment pointing to the center of the sphere.  The process of
this argument is not overly complex, but it is elegant, not simplistic. 
And neither the natural tendency to observe the earth as being flat nor
the old arguments to prove otherwise are ludicrous.  Observe, speculate,
and interpret your surroundings with increasing accuracy and
understanding.  Sounds like a plan for an advancing civilization.  That
being a subjective statement, of course, and subject to modification in
certain sensitive areas.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Jan  1 00:31:03 PST 1996
Article: 18292 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does HCN have evil intelligence?
Date: 31 Dec 1995 17:26:47 -0500
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Mike Stein writes:

>It might be a faster route to the answer, however.  If, say, 10% of
>the gas remained on the walls from a gassing that released double the
>lethal dose, then even if all of the remaining gas instantly detached
from
>the walls and mixed uniformly with the air in the chamber, it would
result
>in only one-fifth of the lethal dose.  If the release rate was slower,
the
.result could only be safer. 

The key to applying this premise is the assumption that the residual mixes
uniformly with the air in the room.  The danger would be in snorting a
noseful over in some corner where the localized concentration is
temporarily higher.

>Until the fan is shut off, this evaporation is nearly at its maximum, 
>as the air containing HCN is being pulled out and fresh air is being 
>introduced.

This is true of surfaces exposed directly to the flow of fresh air.  That
would not be the case for many of the places where surface residuals would
be found.  And, while it may be at "its maximum" rate, the question
becomes, what is the rate?

>Well, I think that any residual HCN is not likely to be a problem for
>the reasons I have stated.  Moreover, we have eyewitnesses who said it
was
>not a problem.

And you may well be right.  To repeat an earlier statement, no problem can
be said to exist until a valid argument can be given to demonstrate the
possibility and then the probability.  Ditto the other side of that.  You
can probably find eyewitnesses who say there were no chambers, too.  As I
am utterly unable to even begin determining the validity of such
statements, my choice is to look at the mechanics for an answer and let
others consider the veracity of various testimonies.  It would meaningless
for me to even speculate in this area.  (Now, don't go jumping on my
straight lines and muse on the meaningless nature of my speculation in any
area and such.  I can't render legal or professional level historic
research opinions.  What I can do is arithmetic, and will try to confine
myself to topics which fit my modest abilities, or clearly call for
opinion only.  Note I said "try".) 

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching

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