Article 18386 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: Analysis of the Franke-Gricksch "report" In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:37 -0800 Message-ID:Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: <387ico$qn1@access1.digex.net> Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 19:52:46 GMT Lines: 24 From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) >As clearly mentioned in my post, the best evidence that the Franke-Gricksch >"report" is a fraud is that it mentions a rail line going into Birkenau >that did not go into Birkenau at the time the "report" allegedly was >written. One problem is that the text of the F-G report posted here doesn't mention any rail line. Could you at least make the apparently missing text you are referring to available (or does anyone else have it?) Another problem is that this rail line matter (ie, when it was built) remains an undocumented assertion on your own part. Could you share with us where you got this information? It must have come from someplace, I assume you weren't there at the time. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 18388 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15 In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:52 -0800 Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1> Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 19:57:34 GMT Lines: 21 From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) >Instead of telling me over and over again about this mountain, why not just >show me? We have. Many times. And your claiming otherwise is hugely disingenuous. It's merely a testament to the fact that confronted with anything you can, over and over again, type in sentences like the above. >Or are you really that hooked on the testimony of people such as >Rudolf Hoess and Otto Ohlendorf, If you really claim this characterizes what has been presented to you than you really are just a fucking liar, plain and simple. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 18412 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!news From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Analysis of the Franke-Gricksch "report" Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:37 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 28 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <387ico$qn1@access1.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: greg-ihr.earthlink.net X-Newsreader: NewsHopper Demo In article <387ico$qn1@access1.digex.net>, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article , >Greg Raven wrote: >>[long involved post deleted] > > Surely it should not be necessary to swarm us with a mass of >adminicles. Which of these is your BEST EVIDENCE that the F-G report is >a forgery? Pick one and let's discuss it. When we're finished, we can >go on to the next objection. As clearly mentioned in my post, the best evidence that the Franke-Gricksch "report" is a fraud is that it mentions a rail line going into Birkenau that did not go into Birkenau at the time the "report" allegedly was written. Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Copies of posts sent via e-mail have a better-than-even chance of being deleted unread. --- For free information about historical revisionism, the IHR can be reached at: P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues) Article 18413 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!news From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:39 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 28 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1> NNTP-Posting-Host: greg-ihr.earthlink.net X-Newsreader: NewsHopper Demo In article , k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: >Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote: > >> As I posted early on, if you do not see my respond to a post, repost it to >> make sure I have seen it. > >(From August 15th, 1994:) > >Mr. Raven, perhaps you'd care to explain to us the difference between a >quadrangular and a rectilinear figure? This is no doubt in reference to an early exchange about Treblinka. I admit I got a little sloppy with my response. Treblinka is neither quadrangular nor rectilinear. It had five sides. Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Copies of posts sent via e-mail have a better-than-even chance of being deleted unread. --- For free information about historical revisionism, the IHR can be reached at: P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues) Article 18414 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!news From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:41 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 65 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1> NNTP-Posting-Host: greg-ihr.earthlink.net X-Newsreader: NewsHopper Demo In article , k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: >Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote: > >> As I posted early on, if you do not see my respond to a post, repost it to >> make sure I have seen it. > >(From August 15th, 1994, in an article by Mike Stein:) > > Speaking of previous posts, Daniel Keren posted the interview with >former SS guard Franz Suchomel as seen in the film *Shoah*. At the time, >Mr. Raven posted a completely irrelevant essay by Mark Weber which >mentioned not one word about Suchomel. Raven made some other comments. At least it was more to the point than calling up an interview as "best evidence" that the Nazis had a plan or policy to exterminate Jews in gas chambers. Once again, interviews, testimonies, statements, and the like are NOT evidence. To give you an example what I mean: it has been said that there is a mountain of evidence to support Holocaust gassing claims. I think this mountain looks more like a molehill, at best. In response to my challenge to produce some kind of evidence that this molehill is indeed a mountain, you and others bring me ... not evidence, but ... statements by others that this molehill is a mountain. Clearly, this is unsatisfactory. If it is a mountain, let us see the evidence. > I'd like to repeat the question I posted in response and which Mr. >Raven never answered. Since Mr. Raven is a proponent of the novel school >of discussing evidence one piece at a time starting with the best, I >assume something in his long and largely irrelevant post must have been >his *best evidence* that the testimony of Franz Suchomel is "shakey," >"erroneous and/or unbelievable." It is not necessary to go to this much trouble. Suchomel's testimony is not evidence. It makes no difference how good or bad it is. It cannot stand alone. Bring me some evidence, please. > Which is it? The fact that Daniel Keren misspelled the name of the >film director? The fact that Keren translated the name of the film from >the Hebrew "Shoah" to the English "Holocaust?" Or something else? I'd >like Mr. Raven - who has yet to explain his blatant distortion of the >comments of Pressac regarding the testimony of Bo"ck - to pick one so we >can discuss it. I mentioned these other failings with regards to Keren's post to show that although he puts himself forward as being knowledgeable, he frequently makes errors of all kinds. Strangely, you defend him when he makes errors, yet attack me for much less (which, of course, does allow you to avoid dealing with my position directly). Why have you such a double-standard? Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Copies of posts sent via e-mail have a better-than-even chance of being deleted unread. --- For free information about historical revisionism, the IHR can be reached at: P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues) Article 18415 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!news From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:44 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 36 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1> NNTP-Posting-Host: greg-ihr.earthlink.net X-Newsreader: NewsHopper Demo In article , k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: >Mr. Raven, you state that you are "willing to accept [the definition above] >as a starting point." > >That definition assigns the word "Holocaust" to mean "the murder of six >million Jews as a central act of state by the Nazis during the Second World >War, many in gas chambers." > >And you state that you "cannot accept" that "the Nazis had a plan or policy >to exterminate the Jews, that they loaded Jews into gas chambers to murder >them, and that they wiped out 6 million Jews as part of this plan/policy." > >By absolutely straightforward syllogistic logic, it seems evident to me >that you, therefore, "cannot accept" the Holocaust. That is, you deny it. Wrong again. As a revisionist, I am attempting to revise the definition of the Holocaust. I accept that something happened that could be called a Holocaust, if one was so inclined, but that this "Holocaust" did not include the use of gas chambers as part of a Nazi plan or policy to exterminate Jews. This is so simple. Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Copies of posts sent via e-mail have a better-than-even chance of being deleted unread. --- For free information about historical revisionism, the IHR can be reached at: P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues) Article 18416 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!news From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:46 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 42 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1> NNTP-Posting-Host: greg-ihr.earthlink.net X-Newsreader: NewsHopper Demo In article , k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: >greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote: > >> Sorry. I believe if you read the original message, you will see that >> McCarthy refers only to testimonies and eyewitness accounts, or somesuch. I >> take this to mean that there is no substantive evidence to support his view >> of the Holocaust extermination myth. > >You're changing the subject again, Mr. Raven. > >Greg, in article , regarding >whether or not the gas chambers are reconstructions, I wrote, "We can deal >with the truth or falsity of this statement later." You later said that >I had "admitted" that they were reconstructions, and thus that no direct >evidence of the tools used to kill the people still exists. > >I want you to quote the text where I "admitted" this, Mr. Raven.... I not only do not save old postings, I would not go through them if I had them. However, the way I remember it, you made a statement about the type of support there was for the Holocaust extermination myth, and among the items you listed were only testimonies and other post-war utterances. This shows clearly that you have no real evidence, because if you had any, you would have mentioned that instead of these worthless testimonies, etc. If, however, I am wrong in my understanding of your position on this, there is no need to post long, argumentative messages. Simply post some evidence. Then we can get down to business. Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Copies of posts sent via e-mail have a better-than-even chance of being deleted unread. --- For free information about historical revisionism, the IHR can be reached at: P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues) Article 18417 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!news From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:48 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 36 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1> NNTP-Posting-Host: greg-ihr.earthlink.net X-Newsreader: NewsHopper Demo In article , k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: >Greg Raven wrote: >> Pressac casts doubts on Boeck's having >>witnessed more than one [gassing] > > This is (to say the least) a very creative reading of Pressac's text, >which has been posted here several times. > > Say, Greg, want to get some high school English teachers together and >place a little wager on what they'd say about your interpretation of >Pressac's text? That's not necessary. We could say that you have one opinion about Pressac's view of Boeck's testimony and I have another. But if that's not good enough for you, then all you have to do is tell me that you think that Boeck's "testimony" is the best evidence that you can find that the Nazis had a plan or policy of exterminating the Jews in gas chambers. Of course, once you do that, you have in effect admitted that there is no real, solid proof, and that you are forced to rely on fragments of post-war testimonies to proof the existence of what would have been the most monstrous killing weapon of all times. Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Copies of posts sent via e-mail have a better-than-even chance of being deleted unread. --- For free information about historical revisionism, the IHR can be reached at: P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues) Article 18418 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!news From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:50 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 42 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1> NNTP-Posting-Host: greg-ihr.earthlink.net X-Newsreader: NewsHopper Demo In article , k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: >Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote: >: I had no luck >: whatsoever locating the last two pieces of so-called evidence you claimed >: to have ... they simply did not exist in the sources to which you referred. > >That's because you were looking in the _wrong_place_. > >And you would be aware of that, if you bothered to read this newsgroup. >You _do_ read this newsgroup, right, Mr. Raven? > >Danny Keren, on August 2: > >: Ah, what a clown this Raven is. >: >: You got the wrong series, you "revisionist scholar" you. I am not >: quoting from the "blue series", but from the series of volumes about >: the later trials (such as the Farben Trial, the Doctor's Trial etc; >: I hope Raven heard about these). That's fine. However, the citations you gave were not for the "green" series (where you not claim this material to be) but in one of the other series (either blue or red, without seeing the original post -- which you wisely avoid quoting -- I cannot remember which. I must say that if I had made a similar error, you would have crowed about it for months. Why do you have such a double standard? Is it because you have nothing to back up your position on the Holocaust extermination myth? Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Copies of posts sent via e-mail have a better-than-even chance of being deleted unread. --- For free information about historical revisionism, the IHR can be reached at: P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues) Article 18419 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!news From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:52 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 44 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1> NNTP-Posting-Host: greg-ihr.earthlink.net X-Newsreader: NewsHopper Demo In article , k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: >Let me get this straight: when a man stands up in court, under oath, >and says, I helped gas people to death -- that's not evidence? > >When a man writes his memoirs and rambles on at length about the various >faces he remembers seeing walk into the gas chambers -- that's not >evidence? > >When a man says, yes, I did horrible medical experiments on Jews because >I knew they were going to be killed anyway, that is not "just what >someone is alleged to have said." > >You've thrown me a curve, Mr. Raven, and I'm not sure what to say. It >sounds like your criteria are such that you will not accept anything >that anyone has said or written -- as if we are supposed to approach >the Holocaust as deaf illiterates. Is that right? Wrong. Let me put it this way, since you really seem to be struggling with this concept. You and/or others have stated that there is a mountain of evidence. Furthermore, this mountain of evidence is so large that I cannot fail to see it. Because I do not see it, and ask for something tangible to show its existence, you respond by saying, in effect, "Let's go talk to a bunch of people who all say the mountain is right where I claimed it is." Instead of telling me over and over again about this mountain, why not just show me? Or are you really that hooked on the testimony of people such as Rudolf Hoess and Otto Ohlendorf, who made statements similar to the representations you make above, only to be found out later as having lied? Testimonies are subject to a great many factors, not all of which are plain to see. Why not just produce some evidence? Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Copies of posts sent via e-mail have a better-than-even chance of being deleted unread. --- For free information about historical revisionism, the IHR can be reached at: P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues) Article 18420 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!news From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:57 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 31 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1> NNTP-Posting-Host: greg-ihr.earthlink.net X-Newsreader: NewsHopper Demo In article , k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: >_Assuming for the sake of argument_ that the gas chambers are totally >reconstructions, isn't the section of Mr. Leuchter's report that deals >with the chemical analysis of their walls either (1) a fraudulent >worthless sham, or (2) evidence of Mr. Leuchter's complete ineptitude >and ignorance? No. Leuchter was trying to determine only if the buildings/rooms currently being displayed to tourists (and being put forward by many historians) as authentic gas chambers could function as such. His finding was that they could not. Therefore, these supposedly "authentic" rooms are not authentic, so where are the real gas chambers, and what did they look like? If you think that Leuchter's point is trivial, I would point out that you can be tried, fined, and jailed in many countries for saying that the "gas chamber" at Auschwitz I is a reconstruction, which even F. Piper admits to be the case! Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Copies of posts sent via e-mail have a better-than-even chance of being deleted unread. --- For free information about historical revisionism, the IHR can be reached at: P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues) Article 18421 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!news From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:59 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 33 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1> NNTP-Posting-Host: greg-ihr.earthlink.net X-Newsreader: NewsHopper Demo In article , k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: >In that article that first appeared on May the 4th, we asked Mr. Raven to >"provide us with what he thinks are the one or two best pieces of evidence >that the Nazis did _not_ exterminate millions of people in homicidal gas >chambers." I personally have repeated that request several times. > >This is not only an alternative plan, it's highly superior to Mr. Raven's >suggestion, for reasons which have been detailed many times on this >newsgroup, in the May 4th article and in my personal remarks thereon. Of course, you would think that this is superior. If I were to accept this challenge you would 1) be relieved of the impossibility of responding to my challenge to provide evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy to exterminate the Jews in gas chambers, and 2) you would be forcing me to prove a negative, which is impossible. I'm not the one making the extraordinary claim (that being, that the Nazis murdered millions in gas chambers). You are. It is up to you and your "mountain of evidence" to support this myth. Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Copies of posts sent via e-mail have a better-than-even chance of being deleted unread. --- For free information about historical revisionism, the IHR can be reached at: P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues) Article 18422 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!news From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:16:01 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 23 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1> NNTP-Posting-Host: greg-ihr.earthlink.net X-Newsreader: NewsHopper Demo In article , k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: >Perhaps Raven can also explain why he relies on an aerial photograph >of Treblinka to arrive at conclusions about the camp, when Treblinka >was dismantled at the end of 1943 and the photographs were taken >in September 1944? Perhaps you can look at the aerial photographs and answer this question for yourself. Once you see this photographs, you will note that it is quite easy to determine where the camp had been situated. Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Copies of posts sent via e-mail have a better-than-even chance of being deleted unread. --- For free information about historical revisionism, the IHR can be reached at: P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues) Article 18423 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!news From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:16:03 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 42 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1> NNTP-Posting-Host: greg-ihr.earthlink.net X-Newsreader: NewsHopper Demo In article , k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: >I have every single article you've ever written on Usenet archived, >all 72 of them (not counting email from you that was posted by other >users, but including the twelve articles you posted before the May 4th >reply). You really should have realized this by now, Mr. Raven. If >you'd like I can email all 60 post-May-4th articles directly to you, >and you can sift through your own words, looking for a place where you >"asked...whether [the May 4th documents were] the best evidence." I'm >dead serious about that -- if you can't find the article where you asked >this, please, let me email you everything you've written, and you can >search through it. > >But you won't find a damned thing. I know. I've looked. Thank you for supporting my statement that I never saw this silly "May 4th" posting. Once again, I must point out that there must not be very much to it, because it is only called the "May 4th" posting instead of something substantive. However, I have a sneaking suspicion that components of this "May 4th" posting are being reposted under other names, so that there will be no risk of me responding to them, while protecting the unprotectable "May 4th" posting, which apparently starts out with Himmler's Oct. 4 speech (of all things!) to prove that the Nazis had a plan or policy to exterminate the Jews in gas chambers ... even though Himmler says absolutely nothing about gas chambers in this or any other speech. Go figure. Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Copies of posts sent via e-mail have a better-than-even chance of being deleted unread. --- For free information about historical revisionism, the IHR can be reached at: P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues) Article 18424 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!news From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:16:05 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 70 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1> NNTP-Posting-Host: greg-ihr.earthlink.net X-Newsreader: NewsHopper Demo In article , k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: >The snippet you posted from December 1943 was of Himmler talking about >his actions in villages, against what he referred to as "partisans or >Jewish commissars." He stated that, in these villages, he was killing >the partisans and Jewish commissars down to the women and children. > >Now, I guess your claim is that, because Himmler said in December that >he was killing Jewish commissars (and others) in villages, then in >October he could not possibly have been speaking of what was going on >in gas chambers in Auschwitz. Do I have that right? Close, but not quite right. I am claiming that if you look at the texts of the speeches Himmler gave throughout this period, you will see that they are very similar in content. This particular portion of this speech corresponds with other similar portions of other speeches, only in the December speech Himmler gives more detail. Therefore, by putting the speech in context, we can see what he is actually saying. Note that putting the speech in context is actually not needed for the purposes of the discussion at hand, because in none of these speeches does Himmler mention the use of gas chambers, which, of course, is what I am questioning. >Is it your claim that, because the Jewish commissars (and others) were >not being killed in gas chambers, that therefore no Jews were being >killed in gas chambers? Again, I don't see how you could expect anyone >to buy that; it makes no sense. Good thing that is not my claim. I am claiming that there is no evidence to support the position that the Nazis had a plan or policy to exterminate the Jews in gas chambers. >Perhaps I don't understand what you meant by "other versions of the >speech given around that same time." Is it your claim that Himmler was >giving nearly the same speech, and simply chose to rephrase that part >slightly differently, keeping the same meaning? If so, you may be >a little confused. There were two speeches at Poznan, on the 4th and >6th of October. The excerpt from the December speech you quote sounds a >lot like a section of the October 6th speech, in which he asks "how was >it with the women and children?" and explains that they had to die as >well. But that's different from the October 4th speech. And it's the >October 4th speech that I'm quoting: "'The Jewish people will be >exterminated,' says every Party member, 'this is very obvious, it is in >our program -- elimination of the Jews, extermination, will do.'" >Different versions of the October 6th speech will provide insight as to >nuances of meaning in _that_ speech, of course, but will have no impact >on the October 4th speech. Still, there is no mention of gas chambers. And, if you really want to get into what Himmler says, why not look at the other statements he made, which can be found in an earlier post of mine, in which there is no trace of any kind of plan or desire to exterminate Jews? As you can see, I am trying to stick to the very narrow topic of whether the Nazis used gas chambers to kill Jews. Perhaps later we can wander off into all these other areas. Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Copies of posts sent via e-mail have a better-than-even chance of being deleted unread. --- For free information about historical revisionism, the IHR can be reached at: P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues) Article 18425 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!news From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: OJ Simpson & the Gas Chambers Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:16:09 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 68 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <386098$20u@nyx10.cs.du.edu> <389fh3$lca@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: greg-ihr.earthlink.net X-Newsreader: NewsHopper Demo In article <389fh3$lca@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote: >Suppose that: > >1) Someone would give public speeches, declaring he is going > to kill his former wife. > >2) He would write a book, and include in it threats to kill her. > >3) Many people would testify they saw him kill her. > >4) Documents would be discovered, in which he states that he > is going to kill his former wife, the method of killing he is > going to use, and, finally, that he indeed killed her. > >5) He would testify in court that he killed her. > > >Would such a person be convicted? Most probably yes. > >Now, the Nazis said they are going to kill the Jews of Europe; >Hitler said it himself, publically, a few times. Not true. >He also >wrote a book, stating in it that he wishes to expose Jews >to poison gas. Not true. > Many people - Jews, Germans, Poles, Russians, >and others - saw Nazis kill Jews and other victims. No one is claiming that no Jew was ever killed by a Nazi. However, the revisionist position is that no Jews were killed in gas chambers as part of a Nazi plan or policy. > Documents >were found, in which leading Nazis state that they are going >to kill the Jews, as well as detailed reports about the methods >used for the killing and the numbers of victims. Detailed reports? Let's see them. Do they mention gas chambers? > And, finally, >many Nazis testified about how they killed Jews and others in >the death camps and elsewhere, and that the orders given to >them were to kill every Jew they could capture. Here we go with the "testimony" again. No doubt you particularly like the "testimony" of Rudolf Hoess and Otto Ohlendorf. Is this the best evidence you have that the Nazis had a plan or policy to exterminate the Jews in gas chambers? Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Copies of posts sent via e-mail have a better-than-even chance of being deleted unread. --- For free information about historical revisionism, the IHR can be reached at: P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues) Article 18426 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!news From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Wanted: address for Noontide Press Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:16:11 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 32 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <38u2f1$ins@nyx10.cs.du.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: greg-ihr.earthlink.net X-Newsreader: NewsHopper Demo In article <38u2f1$ins@nyx10.cs.du.edu>, astevens@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Allison Stevenson) wrote: >Does anyone here know the address and/or phone number of Noontide Press? > > >While I'm at it....... >can anyone recommend a mail order source for Savitri Devi's books? >(specifically _The Lightning and the Sun_ - Is it still in print?) > >Thanks in advance! > >Easy, >astevens@nyx10.cs.du.edu Noontide Press can be contacted at: PO Box 2719 Newport Beach, CA 92659 I believe the only Devi book they sell is "Impeachment of Man," however. Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Copies of posts sent via e-mail have a better-than-even chance of being deleted unread. --- For free information about historical revisionism, the IHR can be reached at: P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues) Article 18428 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!golux.pr.mcs.net!user From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15 Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 00:14:13 -0600 Organization: MCSNet Services Lines: 51 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1> NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net In article , greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote: > However, I have a sneaking suspicion that components of this "May 4th" > posting are being reposted under other names, so that there will be no risk > of me responding to them, while protecting the unprotectable "May 4th" > posting, which apparently starts out with Himmler's Oct. 4 speech (of all > things!) to prove that the Nazis had a plan or policy to exterminate the > Jews in gas chambers ... even though Himmler says absolutely nothing about > gas chambers in this or any other speech. Mr. Raven, I am beginning to suspect that you either (a) have a serious reading comprehension problem, or (b) intentionally and willfully continue to attack a nonsensical strawman argument in the hopes that this will somehow prove your point. Let's go over this ONE MORE TIME, and perhaps Mr. Raven can explain which parts of it he does not understand: No historian, and no defender of history in this newsgroup, has ever claimed that the Nazi plan and policy of exterminating the Jews (and other undesirables) specifically required gas chambers. History shows that the Nazis planned the extermination of the Jews -- Himmler's Poznan speech is ample demonstration of that -- and history further shows that at some point, gas chambers became a method for carrying out that plan and policy. Do you understand this? Yes or no? I will repeat it: 1. The Nazis had a plan to exterminate the Jews. 2. The Nazis used gas chambers, among other methods, to carry out this plan. BUT Nobody -- aside from Greg Raven, as far as I can tell -- has ever suggested that the Nazis had a plan to use gas chambers to exterminate the Jews. Do you understand this? Yes or no? If you do understand it, then please address your arguments to the real Holocaust, not your strawman. Somehow, I doubt that you will, and to use your own words: > Go figure. -- D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup. golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms. -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_ Article 18439 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uunet!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: The Consistency of the Denier Mind, part 9 In-Reply-To: doyal@eskimo.com's message of Tue, 1 Nov 1994 02:59:45 GMT Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: <393keu$qav@access4.digex.net> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 05:38:44 GMT Lines: 21 From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal) >I don't believe 6,000,000 Jews were gassed. Quite reasonable, no one, to my knowledge, claims 6,000,000 Jews were gassed. About 6,000,000 were KILLED, by various means. I believe the number claimed gassed is more in the 1,000,000-2,000,000 range. There, that's been settled amicably. Next question? -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 18442 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Analysis of the Franke-Gricksch "report" Date: 31 Oct 1994 18:25:45 -0500 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 13 Message-ID: <393udp$5pg@access4.digex.net> References: <387ico$qn1@access1.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net In article , Barry Shein wrote: >Another problem is that this rail line matter (ie, when it was built) >remains an undocumented assertion on your own part. Could you share >with us where you got this information? It must have come from >someplace, I assume you weren't there at the time. Why would it matter if he was? It would only be testimony, not evidence, according to his own standards. -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 18445 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Consistency of the Denier Mind, part 8 or thereabouts Date: 1 Nov 1994 09:01:01 -0500 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 18 Message-ID: <395hmt$up@access4.digex.net> References: <393k42$pu1@access4.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net In article , Thomas Doyal wrote: >I still don't believe 6,000,000 Jews were gassed. I don't believe 6,000,000 Jews were gassed either! More died of other means than died of gassing. These means include shooting, phenol injections, lethal medical experimentation, being shut up in buildings and burned alive inside, and so-called "natural" causes as starvation, disease, freezing/dehydration in transport, etc. - although there was of course nothing natural about the conditions which gave rise to these "natural" deaths. >Me thinks you protest too much. Methinks youthinks too little. -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 18446 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Consistency of the Denier Mind, part 9 Date: 1 Nov 1994 09:04:36 -0500 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 14 Message-ID: <395htk$14a@access4.digex.net> References: <393keu$qav@access4.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net In article , Thomas Doyal wrote: >I don't believe 6,000,000 Jews were gassed. No evidence offered, just belief. Clearly it is revisionism, not the Holocaust, which is the religion, despite revisionist claims of the opposite. I think psychologists call this "projection." -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 18459 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!cato.Direct.CA!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!news.kei.com!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.brown.edu!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15 Date: 1 Nov 1994 11:25:04 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 74 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3958ig$gi9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Greg Raven, who wrote that Hitler was a "great man" and the "best thing that could have happened to Germany" writes: wrote: # Here's where you are ignoring a glaring hole in your own arguments: For # the Nazis to have committed mass murder by gassing as has been endlessly # claimed by supporters of the Holocaust extermination myth, One has to note a fact that Raven is apparently too stupid, or too twisted, to understand: the facts about the gas chambers did not originate with "supporters of the Holocaust", but with people who, unlike Raven, were in the Nazi death camps while these were operational. Raven simply dismisses the testimony of all these people - very many people, among them Jews, Soviets, Poles, Germans, and others - by claiming that "testimony is not evidence". This is an infantile and void claim. Other evidence, for example documents about the construction and operation of the gassing installations, also exists, as well as some physical remains, although some gas chambers were destroyed. # they would have # HAD to have a plan or policy. No, this is stupid. The policy, which evidently existed, was to kill the Jews of Europe. The gas chambers were just one tool. The following is a letter from one Nazi official to another, which discusses the construction of "gassing apparatuses" and suggests to use them to kill Jews who are "unfit for work". Letter from Dr. Erhard Wetzel to Reichskommissar Lohse, October 25, 1941 [Hitler and the Final Solution - G. Fleming, University of California Press, 1984, p. 70] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ With regard to my letter of 18 October 1941, please be informed that Oberdiensleiter [Chief Executive Officer] Brack from the Fuehrer's Chancellory has stated his readiness to assist in the construction of the necessary accommodations and gassing apparatuses, so they must first be constructed. Brack's view is that, since construction of the apparatuses within the Reich would present far greater difficulties than on-site production, the most expedient course of action is to send his people directly to Riga, in particular his chemist Dr. Kallmeyer, who will take the necessary steps from there. Oberdiensleiter Brack further points out that the procedure in question is not without its hazards, and that therefore special safety precautions are needed. Under these circumstances, I ask you to contact Oberdiensleiter Brack in the Fuehrer's Chancellory through your higher SS and Police leader. Please request from him the dispatching of the chemist Dr. Kallmeyer and any further assistants that are needed. I might further point out that Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, the adviser on Jewish affairs in the Reich main security office, is in complete accord with this procedure. According to the information received here from Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, camps for Jews will be set up in Riga and Minsk, where Jews from the Altreich [Germany proper] might also be sent. Jews are currently being evacuated from the Altreich to Lodz and other camps, from which those fit for work will be transferred to work forces in the east. Given the present situation, Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms through use of the Brack device. Incidents such as those that took place during the shootings of Jews in Vilna, according to a report I have on my desk, can hardly be sanctioned, keeping in mind that the executions were undertaken openly, and the new procedures assure that such incidents will no longer be possible. Jews fit for work, on the other hand, will be transported to work forces in the east. That the men and women in this latter group must be kept apart from each other goes without saying. Please keep me informed as to any further measures you take. -Danny Keren. Article 18466 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15 Date: 31 Oct 1994 14:30:51 GMT Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe Lines: 51 Message-ID: <392v2r$7ch@agate.berkeley.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu In article , The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device wrote: >Mr. Raven, I am beginning to suspect that you either (a) have a serious >reading comprehension problem, or (b) intentionally and willfully continue >to attack a nonsensical strawman argument in the hopes that this will >somehow prove your point. There is a third possibility, namely that Raven is simply a master of Orwell's technique of "doublethink", the ability to hold two contradictory ideas in one's head at the same time. Observe his behavior, not just on the Poznan speech issue, but on just about anything. Thus, on the one hand, he has said that if he hasn't responded to something, that's because he hasn't seen it, and you should email it to him. But on the other hand, he says he only has limited time for this and will delete unread any email he doesn't like. On the one hand, he claims that the Nazis never had a policy to kill Jews in gas chambers. But on the other hand, he claims that no Jews were killed in gas chambers at all, which makes the policy argument irrelevant. There is also the possibility that there are two people posting from his account, which would explain these discrepancies. Or he could simply be following the Party Line through whatever contradictions it leads him. He has in fact admitted to the straw man. Elsewhere he has said that he wants to "redefine" the term "Holocaust". By redefining it to something that no one has ever claimed, he can "disprove" it without much trouble. I don't see why he doesn't simply go all the way. That is, instead of redefining the Holocaust to be "the Nazi policy of killing Jews in gas chambers" (which is a definition that no one else accepts, as has been explained ad nauseum to Raven), he should simply redefine the Holocaust as "the belief that black is white." That would make disproving it much easier. ("Present me with your BEST evidence that black is white. . .") >Nobody -- aside from Greg Raven, as far as I can tell -- has ever >suggested that the Nazis had a plan to use gas chambers to exterminate the >Jews. I think that this is a slight misstatement. Mr. Raven has argued quite the opposite, that the Nazis *never* had such a plan. The straw man that Raven has set up is that it somehow makes a difference whether they had such a plan. Raven seems to think that if there was no such plan, then the Holocaust could not have occurred. At least that is what I glean from his postings on the matter. On the long list of questions he has never answered is one of mine, namely, what difference it would make if the Nazis had no specific plan to kill Jews in gas chambers. -- Richard Schultz "I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell." Article 18476 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Varying opinions, part 1 Date: 31 Oct 1994 19:08:28 -0500 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3940ts$7mk@access4.digex.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net In article , Greg Raven wrote: >In article , >k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) reposted my article: >> Say, Greg, want to get some high school English teachers together and >>place a little wager on what they'd say about your interpretation of >>Pressac's text? > >That's not necessary. We could say that you have one opinion about >Pressac's view of Boeck's testimony and I have another. And while we're at it, we could also say that you have one opinion about whether testimony is evidence and I (and most of the rest of the world, including courts of law and reputable historians) have another. -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 18481 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!cato.Direct.CA!hookup!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!openwx!eskimo!doyal From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal) Subject: Re: The Consistency of the Denier Mind, part 9 Message-ID: Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <393keu$qav@access4.digex.net> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 02:59:45 GMT Lines: 23 Michael P. Stein (mstein@access4.digex.net) wrote: : In article , : Greg Raven wrote: : >I'm not the one making the extraordinary claim (that being, that the Nazis : >murdered millions in gas chambers). You are. It is up to you and your : >"mountain of evidence" to support this myth. : However, Mr. Raven is making the extraordinary claims that thousands : of testimonies from Allied, German, prisoner and other sources were : coerced and fabricated, and that hundreds of documents were forged, and : that millions of Jews disappeared without a trace, and yet are still alive : somewhere with no explanation of where they went or how they got there. I : think he might offer some small scrap of evidence to support some of these : claims. : -- : Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. : POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official : Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. I don't believe 6,000,000 Jews were gassed. Thomas Doyal Article 18486 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-05.dialip.mich.net!user From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Mr. Raven, what do you want? Date: Tue, 01 Nov 1994 17:17:47 -0400 Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-05.dialip.mich.net greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote: > To restate my position, regardless of whether the Nazis had a policy or > plan to exterminate the Jews, in order to prove that they used gas > chambers, you must produce one of the gas chambers that they used to commit > this crime. We're getting down to brass tacks here. But I still don't understand exactly what you're getting at. Please be absolutely precise, Mr. Raven. I must "produce one of the gas chambers"? Does that mean I have to pick it up with a crane and drop it at your doorstep? Presumably not. And you've already made very plain that you simply will not accept any spoken or written words by anyone regarding the gas chambers, no matter who. Even the commandant of the camp, who clearly explains the gassing process over and over, is simply not acceptable to you. You don't want to see or hear anything that anyone wrote or said. Well, that limits our options, doesn't it? Will you allow me to give you a map so you can take a plane, train, and bus to Auschwitz, and see them for yourself? Will you allow me to show you pictures of how the gas chambers look today? Those won't really prove anything -- they're pretty well demolished. Will you allow me to show you blueprints of the gas chambers? Granted, the blueprints don't say "gas chamber" in German across the top; they used code words to describe them. Nevertheless, the blueprints exist. Will you allow me to show you documents produced during the war, written by Nazis for Nazis, that describe what's happening in the gas chambers? And, what would you like to see that's missing from the above list? What would it take to convince you? In short: what exactly do you mean by "produce one of the gas chambers"? -- Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy "I am taking landpost's spelling as correct, I realize that is not risk-free" - Daniel Rice Article 18512 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!bpharmon Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Consistency of the Denier Mind, part 9 Message-ID: <1994Nov3.024006.32988@miavx1> From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov) Date: 3 Nov 94 02:40:06 -0500 References: Organization: Miami University Lines: 22 article , doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal) writes: > > I don't believe 6,000,000 Jews were gassed. > > Thomas Doyal No one says that six million were gassed. The six million is an estimate for the total dead, including deaths from gassing, shooting, starvation, overwork, and so forth. The total dead from gassing is merely a portion of this number. -- ======================================================================= Brian Harmon "...God sets us nothing but riddles.." Miami University -Dostoyevski's _The Brothers Karamazov_ Oxford, Ohio 45056 yeech! ackphtbt! ungh! --------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu-------------------------- Article 18545 of alt.revisionism: Xref: oneb misc.test:38569 alt.revisionism:18545 Newsgroups: misc.test,alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!gumby!kzoo!k044477 From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy) Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15 Message-ID: <1994Nov4.202330.18525@hobbes.kzoo.edu> Followup-To: alt.revisionism Organization: Kalamazoo College, Kalamazoo MI 49006 References: <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 20:23:30 GMT Lines: 274 Greg Raven has seen fit to set aside the question of whether or not the Nazis used gas chambers in their plan to exterminate European Jewry. He agrees that the question of whether or not they planned to exterminate the Jews can be separated from the question of whether or not they used gas chambers in the fulfillment of that plan. Lest you think I'm making this up, I present his own words: To restate my position, regardless of whether the Nazis had a policy ^^^^^^^^^^ or plan to exterminate the Jews, in order to prove that they used gas chambers, you must produce one of the gas chambers that they used to commit this crime. Greg Raven, 31 Oct 1994 (id AADAEA609668E40B7@greg-ihr.earthlink.net) Regardless of whether the policy to exterminate Jews generally existed, the question of whether the gas chambers existed must be answered separately. I agree with Mr. Raven completely on this point. Of course, this cuts both ways. That is, regardless of whether the _gas chambers_ existed, the question of the existence of the Nazi _policy_ to exterminate European Jewry must also be answered separately. And I think it's best to tackle that question first, for several reasons. Of course, the obvious one is that, if there was no plan to exterminate anyone, then what the hell would gas chambers be used for anyway? Almost as obvious is the fact that we've been discussing some evidence for that plan for quite some time now: Himmler's October 1943 speeches at a little Polish town called Poznan. So, where did we leave off this discussion of the Poznan speeches? Well, it's a little hard to say, because the discussion got fragmented. As I recall, Mr. Raven had dropped most of the objections he'd previously raised. My recollections could be wrong -- even with the aid of my archives, it's difficult to figure out exactly what went on. Though I don't think I'm leaving anything out, I welcome corrections to my imperfect memory. Mr. Raven appears to have dropped these three objections: (1) That the speeches might be a forgery. (Mr. Raven hinted that he might make a case for this, but then dropped it later.) (2) That a later speech by Himmler provided "context" for the October speeches, showing that Himmler was really talking about shooting Jews, not gassing them. (In the later speech he is specifically talking about Jewish commissars and communists, not about "das juedische Volk," as he says in the October speeches. So this isn't really an argument. I've expressed my befuddlement at this logic several times. When I explained my reasoning on October 13th and 20th, Mr. Raven had no reply. If he wishes to bring this objection up again, he's welcome to do so; I'll again post my reasoning at the end of this article, and he may reply to that.) (3) That Himmler's speeches, being speeches, are not evidence. Rather, they are merely "testimony." (I'm not sure what we are supposed to do with this one. How could I possibly prove the existence of a "plan or policy," except by presenting oral or written declarations about it? Plans and policies are not solid items. You can't pick them up, or weigh them, or take pictures of them. There can be no physical evidence of a policy, except recorded or written declarations about it -- the only way to document it is to document what the planners said about it. Himmler was the Number Two man in Germany, and he was the one in charge of the Final Solution. What source could be better? Again, when I put forth that reasoning, Mr. Raven had no answer; again, if he'd like to continue with this objection, he's welcome to respond to my previous text, which I'll post at the end of this article.) And Mr. Raven's final objection was this one: (4) That Himmler's Poznan speeches, though they may provide evidence of a Nazi plan to exterminate European Jewry, do not have any impact on the existence of a Nazi plan to exterminate European Jewry in _gas chambers_, because they not specifically mention gas chambers. And we've agreed, now, to put aside the question of the gas chambers, so that we may focus solely on the plan to exterminate European Jewry. This objection, then, is moot. I look forward to seeing whether Mr. Raven is capable of coming up with any further objections to the Himmler speeches. If not, I think we must assume that he has admitted that the Nazis had a plan to exterminate European Jewry. Once we all agree on the existence of the plan, I'll be happy to move on to the means that they used to carry out that plan, including the gas chambers, which Mr. Raven seems eager to discuss. Indeed, I look forward to moving on -- I'm always looking for new areas in which to demonstrate that Mr. Raven is being fraudulent and deceitful. (Analysis of objection #2 above, previously posted on October 13th and October 20th, 1994:) The snippet you posted from December 1943 was of Himmler talking about his actions in villages, against what he referred to as "partisans or Jewish commissars." He stated that, in these villages, he was killing the partisans and Jewish commissars down to the women and children. Now, I guess your claim is that, because Himmler said in December that he was killing Jewish commissars (and others) in villages, then in October he could not possibly have been speaking of what was going on in gas chambers in Auschwitz. Do I have that right? If I do, then I really don't see how you expect anyone to buy that. It simply makes no sense. Perhaps you could try explaining it again. Part of the problem may be what you think Himmler meant by "partisans and Jewish commissars." Since Himmler explicitly said in October that they were killing every Jew, then his December speech would only be relevant if he were referring to Jews as a whole. But he was not -- he was referring to "Jewish commissars." Those being a subset of Jews as a whole. Now, I'll grant you that the Nazis were trying to exterminate Jewish commissars, because that follows directly from the fact that they were trying to exterminate Jews as a whole. But I don't see how Himmler's _affirming_ that Jewish commissars were being killed in any way _denies_ that the Jews as a whole were being killed. Is it your claim that, because the Jewish commissars (and others) were not being killed in gas chambers, that therefore no Jews were being killed in gas chambers? Again, I don't see how you could expect anyone to buy that; it makes no sense. Perhaps I don't understand what you meant by "other versions of the speech given around that same time." Is it your claim that Himmler was giving nearly the same speech, and simply chose to rephrase that part slightly differently, keeping the same meaning? If so, you may be a little confused. There were two speeches at Poznan, on the 4th and 6th of October. The excerpt from the December speech you quote sounds a lot like a section of the October 6th speech, in which he asks "how was it with the women and children?" and explains that they had to die as well. But that's different from the October 4th speech. And it's the October 4th speech that I'm quoting: "'The Jewish people will be exterminated,' says every Party member, 'this is very obvious, it is in our program -- elimination of the Jews, extermination, will do.'" Different versions of the October 6th speech will provide insight as to nuances of meaning in _that_ speech, of course, but will have no impact on the October 4th speech. (Analysis of objection #3 above. This was posted on October 20th:) Mr. Raven, you make two points in that sentence above. The first is that "things that people said" are not evidence. This is rubbish and nonsense. Have you examined the long article by Chris Hoover regarding testimony and the historical process? If so, why do you reject that oral and written statements are evidence? If not, don't you think you owe it to your readers to do so? (And this was posted on October 18th:) (3) Mr. Raven still is confused about the role that testimony plays in the historical process. He still maintains that it is not evidence; at one point he asks for "evidence (not testimony, mind you)." In my earlier message, my comments on this topic were: Regarding speeches not being evidence, I have two replies. The first is that, indeed, speeches most certainly are evidence that historians use to evaluate what happened at some point in history. Christopher Hoover wrote a marvelous discussion of how historians use oral testimony, and he should know. His father, a professional historian, is [one of the authors] of the 1975 book _The Practice of Oral History_. Mr. Raven's response: I will agree that "oral history" is a type of history, but it is hardly unimpeachable. Impeachment is the process of bringing to trial. All evidence is "tried" by historians, because all evidence is evaluated for its validity and reliability. Thus no sort of evidence is "unimpeachable"; it is all "impeached" as a matter of course. If Mr. Raven has a case to make against oral history, then he should make it. He continued: I would be more inclined to accept an oral history about something of little import, or of something that could not possibly have any evidence. However, the construction and use of multiple homicidal gas chambers for the destruction of hundreds of thousands of human beings cannot be said to be such a trivial matter that no physical evidence exists. He here provides two criteria, one of which must be met before he will accept testimony. Why has he chosen these two? What's his reasoning? He doesn't offer any. Perhaps he should read the book co-authored by Chris Hoover's father, to determine whether real historians use similar criteria. Mr. Raven has no degree in history, and yet he offers only his unsupported opinion. Why should that count more than that of a historian, let alone four historians, who have years of study, research, and work in the trenches under their collective belts? His first criterion for acceptance of oral evidence -- matters of little import -- is bizarrely interesting. Why should historians play by one set of rules for small matters and another for large? Odd. It is worth noting the life of Huey Long is hardly of "little import" to any historian of 20th Century American politics. And yet, one of the most significant works on his life, T. Harry Williams' biography, is based entirely on oral accounts. In this particular instance, oral history is the "type of history" that wins Pulitzer Prizes. It is further worth noting that to the historian of Indian-White relations in the 19th century, the Minnesota Sioux War of 1862 is hardly of "little import." And yet, hardly a single significant historical work of that war exists that doesn't rely heavily on oral accounts, and rightly so. Of course, they also rely heavily on documentary records from federal officials, Indian Agents, missionaries, etc. -- but many of _them_ are based on personal impressions as well. In any event, oral and documentary evidence do not cancel each other out here -- they can be, and should be, quite complementary. Both documentary and physical evidence on the life of Huey Long exist. The same is true of the Minnesota Sioux War. By what historiographic authority would Mr. Raven presume to demand that oral testimony not be used in researching the historical record regarding these events? Or, if he would not make such demands regarding these two issues, then why is he applying a _different_ standard to the Holocaust? And his second criterion is telling. Mr. Raven is saying that he will not accept testimony unless it regards something "that could not possibly have any evidence." Now, of course, there is a fair amount of physical evidence for the gas chambers. The best of it, in my opinion, is the simple fact that the Nazis dynamited the Auschwitz gas chambers as the Russians approached. Why would they blow them up if they had nothing to hide? Why blow up only the homicidal gas chambers, and not anything else at the camp? But that act of destruction, and the dismantling of the gas chambers prior, removed most of the physical evidence that was there before. Does he expect there could possibly be any evidence for the gas chambers, after they had been blown up? What about the Reinhard camps' gas chambers, after they were dismantled? What evidence does Mr. Raven think there should be? If he will provide us with a list of evidence that should be there, but is missing, then his claim will have some merit. Otherwise, it would seem that he's merely latched on to an excuse. I hasten to point out that the reason that I have not provided physical evidence to contradict Mr. Raven's thesis, is that the thesis' central concern is the Nazi plan of extermination. Evidence for a single gas chamber certainly does not point to a plan -- if I had provided such, then I'm sure Mr. Raven would be the first to point that out to me! If his thesis were that the gas chambers did not exist, I would provide physical evidence (as well as testimony) that they did. -- Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy If your email is related to my job, please send it to mccarthy@lpi.com. I speak for no one but myself. Article 18571 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!husc-news.harvard.edu!husc.harvard.edu!fas!stara Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: What Holocaust could be so proved? Message-ID: <38epdb$pc7@scunix2.harvard.edu> From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond) Date: 23 Oct 1994 22:51:23 GMT References: Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts NNTP-Posting-Host: fas.harvard.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 14 What else would you like beside pile of papers and documents all over the place just to satisfy your ego-trip. Please stop your demand rubbish, and look what people have been feeding you since you asked. Greg what in the world would convince you? What really are you up to? -- ============================================================================== ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews) VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS. ============================================================================== Article 18597 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!hudson.lm.com!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!news.delphi.com!usenet From: wlight@delphi.com Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Consistency of the Denier Mind, part 8 or thereabouts Date: Sat, 5 Nov 94 00:23:36 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <393k42$pu1@access4.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1d.delphi.com X-To: Michael P. Stein Michael P. Stein writes: > However, Mr. Leuchter claimed to have been an engineer, a claim Obviously, there are thousands working as "engineers" in most technical fields. [A professional engineering license is not needed to work as an engineer. If the man is recognized by the prisons in several US states as an expert in executions, then it makes little difference if he was licensed by the state of Mass. [That ruling was a stinking, desperate attempt to discredit the man's findings without actually addressing his data. ? [/ Article 18621 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Consistency of the Denier Mind, part 8 or thereabouts Date: 5 Nov 1994 17:39:04 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 29 Message-ID: <39gfvo$5tk@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: <393k42$pu1@access4.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu wrote: # Michael P. Stein writes: ## However, Mr. Leuchter claimed to have been an engineer, a claim # Obviously, there are thousands working as "engineers" in most # technical fields. It is not common for someone who has a BA in the arts to call himself an "engineer". It doesn't reflect much on his honesty and integrity. # the man is recognized by the prisons in several US states as an # expert in executions, Not only did Leuchter lie about his connection with a few US prisons, his execution equipment was discovered to be defective. # [That ruling was a stinking, desperate attempt to discredit the # man's findings without actually addressing his data. No, these are two different matters. I read Leuchter's "report" quite carefully. It's a piece of garbage, and even most Holocaust deniers seem to have given up on it. The fact that he called himself an "engineer" only proves he's also a liar. -Danny Keren. Article 19302 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uhog.mit.edu!sgiblab!wetware!kaiwan.com!usenet From: Greg Raven Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Need Information on the Institute For Historical Review Date: 22 Nov 1994 03:31:24 GMT Organization: KAIWAN Internet (310-527-4279,818-756-0180,714-638-4133) Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3aromc$bmc@kaiwan.kaiwan.com> References: <3ae1fh$kef@er5.rutgers.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com > THE PLACE (wance@eden.rutgers.edu) wrote: > : I'm a journalism student at Rutgers and doing a story on Revisionism and > : the Institute for Historical Review. > : If someone could send me information about this or titles of > : books/magazines with this information, I would appreciate it. > : Thanks! > > : WANCE@EDEN.RUTGERS.EDU > > : -Eric Vitner > logon onto www http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr > Lots of good material here. I want to thank everyone who has logged onto my WWW site to view and/or download information on the IHR. I hope to add more files soon. I also wish to apologize for not spending more time on alt.revisionism. I simply cannot seem to make my newsgroup reading software work for some reason (as you can tell from the header, I am using Netscape's awful interface to post this message). With any luck, I will get my software situation straighted out and get back on line shortly after the Thanksgiving holidays. greg.ihr@kaiwan.com http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr Article 19303 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!usenet From: Greg Raven Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ohlendorf Testifies About Nazi Mass Murder in Occupied USSR Date: 22 Nov 1994 03:38:23 GMT Organization: KAIWAN Internet (310-527-4279,818-756-0180,714-638-4133) Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3arp3f$cjm@kaiwan.kaiwan.com> References: <3aesv8$t43@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com > Otto Ohlendorf, chief of Einsatzgruppe D, testifies about Nazi > mass murder in the occupied USSR. Source: IMT Vol. IV, testimony > starts at page 311. To be fair, you should also mention where it "ends." That is, you should mention that Ohlendorf adopted this line in the hopes it would save his neck. When he later was accused of the crimes to which he supposedly confessed at Nuremberg, Ohlendorf changed his tune. At any rate, there is little to no evidence to back up Ohlendorf's claims. However, it does make a nice addition to the "testimony" pile, that is, those so-called supports ot the Holocaust extermination myth that impress the less knowledgeable. greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Article 19350 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!uunet!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!usenet From: Greg Raven Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Information on the Institute For Historical Review Date: 23 Nov 1994 16:40:14 GMT Organization: KAIWAN Internet (310-527-4279,818-756-0180,714-638-4133) Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3avr9e$d4c@kaiwan.kaiwan.com> References: <3ae1fh$kef@er5.rutgers.edu> <17NOV199411115544@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <1994Nov21.233050.238@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com If you wish accurate information about the Institute for Historical Review, contact http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr. If you wish to contact someone who works at the IHR, you may contact me at mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com. Greg Raven greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Article 19419 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!rochester!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!ub!news.kei.com!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!swrinde!pipex!uunet!ankh.iia.org!ralph.vnet.net!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: The other Himmler Date: 23 Nov 1994 22:22:58 -0500 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 155 Message-ID: <3b10ui$ckv@access4.digex.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: The other Himmler Followup-To: alt.revisionism Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 07:25:38 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Message-ID: May 1940 memo to Hitler: "I hope to see the complete elimination of the concept of the Jew through the possibility of a large-scale emigration of all Jews to Africa or otherwise in a colony;" "out of inner conviction" the idea of "physical elimination of a people [must be rejected] as un-Germanic and impossible." We asked Greg for a source, and he never provided one. I'm going to give a more complete version of this passage now. In mid-May, after German tanks broke through the Ardennes and began their race to the Atlantic coast, the prospect of victory prompted Himmler to draft a memorandum outlining his thoughts "about the treatment of foreign peoples of the east." As part of a wide-ranging discussion of the enslavement of Ukrainians, White Russians, and Poles, Himmler recorded his hope "to see the concept Jew totally extinguished [in Europe] by virtue of the possibility of a great migration of all the Jews to Africa or to some other colony." He stressed that "no matter how cruel and tragic" such a course would be "for the individuals involved," it would be "the mildest and the best _if_ out of inner conviction one ruled out as both un-Germanic and impossible the Bolshevik method of the physical extermination [Ausrottung] of a people." [emphasis mine] Source: Mayer, Arno J.: "Why Did the Heavens Not Darken" (Pantheon, 1990) pp. 195-196. So we see that the quote as Raven presented it has been, as Pressac might put it, >>slightly<< reworked from one where Himmler unequivocally rejected extermination to one where he was somewhat less definite. Greg, once again - what was your source? You didn't dishonestly cut out the "if" yourself, did you? As a special bonus, we see once again our old friend "Ausrottung" used in a context where it is hard to interpret it as anything other than killing (but not impossible; see pp. 111-112 of Richard Breitman's "Architect of Genocide" for the possiblity that it might mean elimination through interbreeding). It definitely cannot mean what Landpost said, (i.e., uprooting) since deportation is the *alternative* to "Ausrottung." I wonder how David Irving would explain this one? However, Greg Raven isn't the only guilty party here. Arno Mayer himself has done a little >>reworking<<. This is made clear by referring to Richard Breitman's treatment of this same memorandum. Sometime before May 22 Himmler gave Hitler a position paper he had written on the treatment of foreign peoples in the East[....] On May 25 ... Himmler apparently gave Hitler another copy of the six- page memo [which Hitler had not yet read]. Hitler seems to have read it on the spot and announced that he was very much in agreement. He wanted the memo to remain confidential, with a limited number of copies distributed to key individuals. Probably written after Himmler's trip into Poland in early May ... Himmler's position paper was harsher than the 1939 analysis from the Nazi Party's Office of Racial Politics. [...] Himmler's basic notion was to carry out a racial selection in the East to salvage and assimilate the racially valuable inhabitants and to inhibit the growth of national consciousness among Poles and various minorities in the Government General. Their sense of ethnic identity would have to disappear. Virtual elimination of education would help ensure German domination in the East. Non-German children would have no need for any but the simplest primary education - they could be taught to count to five hundred (at the most), to write their names, and, above all, to obey Germans as a divine command. Children of good racial stock might apply for further education, but German authorities would approve only if the parents allowed those children to be sent permanently to Germany. "As inhuman and tragic as each individual case might be," Himmler wrote at the end of this section, "this was nonetheless the mildest and best method if one rejected the Bolshevist method of the physical destruction of a people on grounds of conscience as un-German and impossible." The mere mention of the destruction of an entire people as a possibility showed that Himmler was operating in a different universe from Wetzel and Hecht. He derived his conception not only from extreme racist doctrines but also from his sense of what Hitler was likely to consider and accept. Himmler's use of the term "Bolshevist method" to describe extermination suggests that he was trying to discourage Hitler from pursuing this course with the Poles.... Surprisingly, Jews are almost absent from Himmler's memo. In one section, he wrote that the concept of a Kashubian people would entirely disappear within four to five years; the other nationalities would take longer. In the midst of these musings, Himmler expressed his hope that the concept of Jews would be extinguished through "the possibility of a great emigration of all Jews to Africa or elsewhere in a colony." Wetzel and Hecht had discussed at considerable length the economic productivity of the Eastern Jews and recommended granting them a favored position with respect to the Poles; Himmler grasped for a way to make them disappear from European territory and consciousness. His reference to Jewish emigration to Africa represented something of a departure. Previous plans for dealing with German and Polish Jews had depended upon prior deportation of Jews to a reservation in the far corner of the Government General, where adult males were to be put in labor camps and the remainder of the Jews decimated. But Nazi opponents as diverse as Go"ring, [Governor-General of Poland Hans] Frank, and the military authorities had resisted the deportations to Lublin. It was not that Frank opposed all killing. In a speech to police officials in the Government General on May 30, he observed that atrocity propaganda, perhaps stirred up by the Americans, the French, the Jews, or the Pope, had caused problems within Germany. ... it was terrible in these [past] months to have to listen to the voices from the Propaganda Ministry, from the Foreign Ministry, from the Interior Ministry, yes, even from the Wehrmacht, that this was a regime of murder, that we had to stop these atrocities, and so forth. Of course it was clear that we also had to state that we would not do it any longer. And it was just as clear that, while the world spotlight was on this area, we could not accomplish any- thing substantial of the sort. But now, with the 10th of May, the world has become fully indifferent to this atrocity propaganda. Now we must use the moment that is available to us. [...] Source: Breitman, Richard: "Architect of Genocide" (Knopf, 1991), pp. 117-120. In a footnote on p. 121, Breitman notes "The sentence about the Jews comes well before the statement about rejecting Bolshevist methods; the latter follows the section on educating non-Germans. In any case, Himmler would not have discussed in written form, intended for distribution to some rivals, an actual policy of exterminating Jews." The important point is that in this memo, the "Ausrottung" which has been rejected seems to refer to the *Poles*, not the Jews, as one would assume even when reading Mayer's presentation of the quote. But the Frank quote (which, it must be noted, also deals with the Poles, not the Jews) is also interesting.... -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 19482 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.pop.psu.edu!hudson.lm.com!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!kaiwan017.kaiwan.com!user From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: www site Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 00:36:59 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <3abanf$pfm@umd5.umd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com In article <3abanf$pfm@umd5.umd.edu>, smkreind@lab8.smcm.edu (Stuart Michael Kreindler) wrote: > can anyone tell me where the revisionist www site is at? I read about > here about two weeks ago and neglected to save the site address. > > thanks, > > stuart kreindler > smkreind@oyster.smcm.edu I have created a WWW home page that contains links to some revisionist material. You may access it via: http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr Although time is tight, I will be adding more material as time goes on. -- Greg Raven greg.ihr@kaiwan.com http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr ----------------------------------------------------- For free information about the IHR, write to: IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659 Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year) The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping Article 19483 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!sgigate.sgi.com!olivea!wetware!kaiwan.com!kaiwan017.kaiwan.com!user From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: World wide web holocaust site Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 00:50:44 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <1706BF417S86.DEACON@VM.TEMPLE.EDU> <3ag7s3$cp0@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu> <3agc4j$hse@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com In article <3agc4j$hse@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu>, spok+@cs.cmu.edu (John Ockerbloom) wrote: > > And since many of the points have been specifically deflated > >since Raven got here, he can't claim ignorance that he's not aware he's > >propagating falsehoods. You are free to believe that many (or even all) of my points have been deflated. However, I firmly believe that any fair-minded person would see that few if any of my points have been deflated. Can you site any specific claims you think have been deflated? Remember, it was I who asked repeatedly for the best evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy to exterminate the Jews in gas chambers. To the best of my knowledge, no one has offered any such thing, even though we are often told there is a "mountain" of evidence proving just this point. I should mention, having looked over the topics of the last 190 messages, that the oft-posted "testimonies" are not proof. Many people say they see flying saucers, but this does not mean that flying saucers exist. Many people claim to have seen God or even talked with him, but that does not mean that God exists. We need actual physical proof, which shouldn't be too difficult to produce if there were actual homicidal gas chambers, and millions of Jews were killed within those gas chambers. -- Greg Raven greg.ihr@kaiwan.com http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr ----------------------------------------------------- For free information about the IHR, write to: IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659 Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year) The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping Article 19484 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sgiblab!wetware!kaiwan.com!kaiwan017.kaiwan.com!user From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 01:23:00 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 122 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com In article , cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk (David Johnston) wrote: > If you assert that the Holocaust did not happen, then those who come forward > as eyewitnesses saying that it did, and that they saw part of it, must be > lying. Therefore, either somebody told them what to say, they all made it up, > or they are all suffering from a mass delusion. If it is a mass delusion, then > it is unprecedented in history. If they all made it up, the stories show a > remarkable consistancy. The only premise left is that it is a deliberate hoax. > So who started this hoax? Who kept it going? You are again assuming facts not in evidence. I do not "deny" the "Holocaust." What I DO say is that the Holocaust story, as it is currently told, contains many errors and falsehoods. I believe that after correcting the errors and falsehoods, what is left can still be called a "Holocaust." However, there is no advantage to lying about the past. Revisionists are simply attempting to bring historiography into accord with the facts. > What did Hoess have to gain? To give just two examples, he had to gain 1) the cessation of the torture to which he was subjected, and 2) the assurance that his family would not be sent to the Soviet Union. > Flase analogy: False memory syndrome is based on fact - that is, the abuse of > children exists. You are claiming there was no plan to murder Jews and others. > In that case, what do those who claim they were in the camps, or were guarding > the camps, base their memories on? Yes, there is child abuse. That does not mean that every child was abused, or that every adult who claims to have been abused as a child was abused. The recent studies on this subject are quite clear that these "suppressed memories" are often wrong. Similarly, just because there were homicidal gas chambers in the United States during the war doesn't mean that Jews were gassed by Nazis. Just because some Jews were killed by Nazis doesn't mean that millions of Jews were killed in gas chambers. Anything as big as the "Holocaust" must of necessity be constructed of smaller pieces. I am merely asking to look objectively at the piece called "homicidal gas chambers" to see what the correspondence there is between the so-called eyewitness claims and testimonies on one hand, and with the physical realities on the other hand. > but was he [Hoess] tortured all the way through writing his autobiography? > If not, > your assertation of torture is worthless. We do not know the precise conditions under which Hoess was kept. However, we do know that between the tortured testimony (which is the most often quoted) and the outright errors, Hoess' post-war utterances on this matter must be approached with the utmost care ... something that the exterminationists have failed to do until very recently, when, for example, Deborah Lipstadt and Christopher Browning effectively discarded Hoess as proof of the Holocaust extermination story. > No, no, no. You've got to prove they are lies. Just saying they are lies > doesn't make them lies. And surely you mean *all*. Saying most are lies > implies some are true. Doesn't help your case much if you admit that. You can prove it to yourself even without me. Read a so-called eyewitness account. If it conflicts with physical reality, then it contains a lie. As for the overall veracity of these so-called witnesses, I think you will find that there are many parts of there stories that contain truthful statements. However, when you get to statements dealing with the so-called gas chambers, for which we have no physical evidence as to their existence, you find errors, misstatements, and even lies. > If this is true, why didn't the hoaxers fake one? That would have made sense > to me. Anyway this is what you define as the important issue. Others may > disagree. I believe that the so-called gas chamber at Dachau was faked. However, if you wish to know why this practice was not more widespread, you will have to find a "hoaxer" and ask him. Remember please, that I do not ascribe to the theory that there is a conspiracy (as it is commonly defined) to spread false Holocaust extermination stories. > I realise many Jews survived. you say "when you look at the numbers". Ok, lets > see them. The only ones I've seen posted recently (I can't remember who posted > them) turned out to be projections of how many Jews there should be in Poland, > given pre-war numbers. A discussion of wartime European Jewish demographics is far too complex to hold online. I suggest you read Walter Sanning's "The Dissolution of European Jewry" as a starting point, after which time you will see some of the difficulties involved in this aspect of history. > No, my question was: Given that the German state is the one organisation with > the greatest access to German war time material, why do they continue to admit > guilt? Surely that can't be in their interest. I cannot accept that as a given. Germany only recently regained control over the Berlin Documentation Center, and many of the relevant documents apparently ended up in the Soviet Union. Remember, too, that the Allies took millions of tons of documents out of Germany after the war. Finally, because of the emotional loading of questions about the Holocaust, anyone caught researching this matter who does not subscribe to the traditional line is subject to fines and imprisonment. > Again, false analogy: no state has said flying saucers exist. Some people > have. And what about Satan? Do you also claim that no state has ever claimed that Satan exists? This is relevant because we are talking about the demonization of the German people. The parallels between the post-war era and the witchcraft trials are startling. -- Greg Raven greg.ihr@kaiwan.com http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr ----------------------------------------------------- For free information about the IHR, write to: IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659 Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year) The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping Article 19486 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!kmcvay From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) Subject: Raven, Hoess, and the historians References: Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac Message-ID: <1994Nov29.173635.6038@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 94 17:36:35 GMT In article greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes: >We do not know the precise conditions under which Hoess was kept. However, >we do know that between the tortured testimony (which is the most often >quoted) and the outright errors, Hoess' post-war utterances on this matter >must be approached with the utmost care ... something that the >exterminationists have failed to do until very recently, when, for >example, Deborah Lipstadt and Christopher Browning effectively discarded >Hoess as proof of the Holocaust extermination story. Nonsense - the following, from an article previously posted here, addresses this spurious claim, which Mr. Raven has also made in the past: In December 1993, a three-page article on "revisionism" appeared in _Vanity Fair_. A half-page discusses "the most sinister of the current revisionist arguments - if indeed it is an argument at all," Holocaust-denial. (Hitchens, 117) The author contacted Browning and Lipstadt to get their opinions of the Hoess statements. Browning said, "Hoess was always a very weak and confused witness...the revisionists use him all the time for this reason, in order to try and discredit the memory of Auschwitz as a whole." (ibid.) Weak and confused is one thing, but does Browning say that "the Hoess statements are useless?" No. Lipstadt directed the article's author to her book _Denying The Holocaust_, p. 188, which merely points out what historians have known for decades: the official Communist death total at Auschwitz, four million, conflicts with the historians' total (closer to 1.5 million). Hoess isn't even in Lipstadt's index; she nowhere mentions him! Yet Raven asserts that she has "admitted that the Hoess statements are useless." Ironically, the Hoess statement in question, far from destroying his credibility, was quite accurate. In his testimony, Hoess said that 2.5 million were killed at Auschwitz. But in his memoirs, he makes it clear that this estimate came from his superior officer, one Gruppenfu"hrer Glu"cks, who received it from Adolf Eichmann. Eichmann, and his deputy Gu"nther, he added, were the only ones who had access to the information needed to calculate such a figure - Hoess claimed that he never knew the number, and had no way to make an estimate. (Bezwinska, 126-7) He later made it clear that he regarded the figure as "far too high," noting that "Even Auschwitz had limits to its destructive possibilities." (Ibid, 129) Hoess believed Eichmann to be mistaken, as he was. The various guesses about the victim count, accurate or inaccurate, in no way affected Hoess' credibility when he described the gassing process itself: By the will of the Reichsfuehrer SS, Auschwitz became the greatest human extermination centre of all time...he himself gave me the order to prepare installations at Auschwitz where mass exterminations could take place, and personally to carry out these exterminations. (Bezwinska, 89-90) Protected by a gas mask, I watched the killing myself. In the crowded cells death came instantaneously the moment the Cyclon B was thrown in. A short, almost smothered cry, and it was all over. (Ibid., 93) The killing of these Russian prisoners-of-war did not cause me much concern at the time. The order had been given, and I had to carry it out. I must even admit that this gassing set my mind at rest, for the mass extermination of the Jews was to start soon and at that time neither Eichmann nor I was certain how these mass killings were to be carried out. It would be by gas, but we did not know which gas or how it was to be used. Now we had the gas, and we had established a procedure. (Ibid., 94) Although, as we have seen, Lipstadt doesn't even mention Hoess, she does include the following statement in her book... we think it provides an appropriate conclusion to this discussion: These works demonstrate how deniers misstate, misquote, falsify statistics, and falsely attribute conclusions to reliable sources. They rely on books that directly contradict their arguments, quoting in a manner that completely distorts the authors' objectives. Deniers count on the fact that the vast majority of readers will not have access to the documentation of make the effort to determine how they have falsified or miscontrued information. (Lipstadt, 111) Works Cited Bezwinska, Jadwiga, Ph. D., and Danuta Czech M.A. KL Auschwitz seen by the SS: Hoess, Broad, Kremer. Howard Fertig Inc., New York, 1984. Hitchens, Christopher. "Whose History Is It?", Vanity Fair Magazine, December, 1993. Lipstadt, Deborah. Denying The Holocaust. New York: Macmillan, 1993. Toronto: Maxwell MacMillan Canada. ISBN: 0-02-919235-8 -- "Mr XXXXXXX is obviously Jewish and a living example of why the Nazis tried to remove Jews from Europe and short of that, into concentration camps for the duration of the war." (Fritz Berg, June 26, 1994) ==== Nizkor ==== Article 19496 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 20:23:40 GMT Lines: 26 Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote: : In article , cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk : (David Johnston) wrote: : > If you assert that the : > Holocaust did not happen, then those who come forward : > as eyewitnesses saying that it did, and that they saw part of it, must be : > lying. Therefore, : > either somebody told them what to say, they all made it up, : > or they are all suffering from a mass delusion. If it is a mass : > delusion, then : > it is unprecedented in history. If they all made it up, the stories show a : > remarkable consistency. Not remarkable at all. They merely copy each others stories. : > The only premise left is that it is a deliberate : > hoax. : > So who started this hoax? The Zionists, who wanted to establish a Jewish State in Palestine. : > Who kept it going? The same. Ross Vicksell Article 19497 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:12:53 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 67 Message-ID: <3b88cl$dch@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Professor Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, Waffen-SS hygienist, on a gassing at Belzec [Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 238-244] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- When I am asked about executions of Jews I must confirm that on 19 August 1942 I witnessed an execution of Jews at Belzec extermination camp. I would like to describe how I came to be there. During my conversations with SS-Brigadefuehrer Globocnik, he told me about the large spinning-mills that he had set up in Belzec. He also mentioned that work at this camp would considerably outstrip German production. When I asked him where the spinning materials came from, he told me proudly that they had come from the Jews. At this point he also mentioned the extermination actions against the Jews, who for the most part were killed at the the camp at Belzec... During this first visit I was taken to around by a certain Polizieihauptmann named Wirth, who also showed and explained to me the extermination installations at the camp. He told me that the following morning a new transport of about 500 Jews would be arriving at the camp who would be channeled through these extermination chambers. He asked me whether I would like to watch one of these extermination actions, to which, after a great deal of reflection, I consented. I planned to submit a report to the Reichsarzt-SS about the extermination actions. In order to write a report I had, however, first to observe an action with my own eyes. I remained in the camp, spent the night there and was witness to the following events the next morning. A goods train traveled directly into the camp of Belzec, the freight cars were opened and Jews whom I believe were from the area of Romania or Hungary were unloaded. The cars were crammed fairly full. There were men, women and children of every age. They were ordered to get into line and then had to proceed to an assembly area and take off their shoes... After the Jews had removed their shoes they were separated by sex. The women went together with the children into a hut. There their hair was shorn and they had to get undressed... The men went into another hut, where they received the same treatment. I saw what happened in the women's hut with my own eyes. After they had undressed, the whole procedure went fairly quickly. They ran naked from the hut through a hedge into the actual extermination centre. The whole extermination centre looked just like a normal delousing institution. In front of the building there were pots of geraniums and a sign saying "Hackenholt Foundation", above which there was a star of David. The building was brightly and pleasantly painted so as not to suggest people would be killed here... Inside the buildings, the Jews had to enter chambers into which was channeled the exhaust of a [100(?)]-HP engine, located in the same building. In it there were six such extermination chambers. They were windowless, had electric lights and two doors. One door led outside so that the bodies could be removed. People were led from a corridor into the chambers through an ordinary air-tight door with bolts. There was a glass peep-hole, as I recall, next to the door in the wall. Through this window one could watch what was happening inside the room but only when it was not too full of people. After a short time the glass became steamed up. When the people had been locked in the room the motor was switched on and then I suppose the stop-valves or vents to the chambers opened. Whether they were stop-valves or vents I would not like to say. It is possible that the pipe led led directly to the chambers. Once the engine was running, the light in the chambers was switched off. This was followed by palpable disquiet in the chamber. In my view it was only then that the people sensed something else was in store for them. It seemed to me that behind the thick walls and door they were praying and shouting for help. Article 19498 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:13:13 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 47 Message-ID: <3b88d9$dcq@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Willi Mentz testifies about his days in Treblinka [Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 245-247] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- When I came to Treblinka the camp commandant was a doctor named Dr. Eberl. He was very ambitious. It was said that he ordered more transports than could be "processed" in the camp. That meant that trains had to wait outside the camp because the occupants of the previous transport had not yet all been killed. At the time it was very hot and as a result of the long wait inside the transport trains in the intense heat many people died. At the time whole mountains of bodies lay on the platform. The Hauptsturmfuehrer Christian Wirth came to Treblinka and kicked up a terrific row. And then one day Dr. Eberl was no longer there... For about two months I worked in the upper section of the camp and then after Eberl had gone everything in the camp was reorganized. The two parts of the camp were separated by barbed wire fences. Pine branches were used so that you could not see through the fences. The same thing was done along the route from the "transfer" area to the gas chambers... Finally, new and larger gas chambers were built. I think that there were now five or six larger gas chambers. I cannot say exactly how many people these large gas chambers held. If the small gas chambers could hold 80-100 people, the large ones could probably hold twice that number... Following the arrival of a transport, six to eight cars would be shunted into the camp, coming to a halt at the platform there. The commandant, his deputy Franz, Kuettner and Stadie or Maetzig would be here waiting as the transport came in. Further SS members were also present to supervise the unloading: for example, Genz and Belitz had to make absolutely sure that there was no one left in the car after the occupants had been ordered to get out. When the Jews had got off, Stadie or Maetzig would have a short word with them. They were told something to the effect that they were a resettlement transport, that they would be given a bath and that they would receive new clothes. They were also instructed to maintain quiet and discipline. They would continue their journey the following day. Then the transports were taken off to the so-called "transfer" area. The women had to undress in huts and the men out in the open. The women were than led through a passageway, known as the "tube", to the gas chambers. On the way they had to pass a hut where they had to hand in their jewellery and valuables.. Article 19499 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:13:34 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3b88du$de5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Letter from Dr. Erhard Wetzel to Reichskommissar Lohse, October 25, 1941 [Hitler and the Final Solution - G. Fleming, University of California Press, 1984, p. 70] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ With regard to my letter of 18 October 1941, please be informed that Oberdiensleiter [Chief Executive Officer] Brack from the Fuehrer's Chancellory has stated his readiness to assist in the construction of the necessary accommodations and gassing apparatuses, so they must first be constructed. Brack's view is that, since construction of the apparatuses within the Reich would present far greater difficulties than on-site production, the most expedient course of action is to send his people directly to Riga, in particular his chemist Dr. Kallmeyer, who will take the necessary steps from there. Oberdiensleiter Brack further points out that the procedure in question is not without its hazards, and that therefore special safety precautions are needed. Under these circumstances, I ask you to contact Oberdiensleiter Brack in the Fuehrer's Chancellory through your higher SS and Police leader. Please request from him the dispatching of the chemist Dr. Kallmeyer and any further assistants that are needed. I might further point out that Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, the adviser on Jewish affairs in the Reich main security office, is in complete accord with this procedure. According to the information received here from Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, camps for Jews will be set up in Riga and Minsk, where Jews from the Altreich [Germany proper] might also be sent. Jews are currently being evacuated from the Altreich to Lodz and other camps, from which those fit for work will be transferred to work forces in the east. Given the present situation, Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated without qualms through use of the Brack device. Incidents such as those that took place during the shootings of Jews in Vilna, according to a report I have on my desk, can hardly be sanctioned, keeping in mind that the executions were undertaken openly, and the new procedures assure that such incidents will no longer be possible. Jews fit for work, on the other hand, will be transported to work forces in the east. That the men and women in this latter group must be kept apart from each other goes without saying. Please keep me informed as to any further measures you take. Article 19500 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:13:59 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3b88en$deq@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu SS-Doctor Kremer about his days at Auschwitz: [Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 258]. ------------------------------------------------------------------- I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot say how big the group was. when I got close to the bunker I saw them sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the behavior of these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited them, as they begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their lives. However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed. As an anatomist I have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had a lot of experience with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that day was like nothing I had ever seen before. Still completely shocked by what I had seen I wrote on my diary on 5 September 1942: "The most dreadful of horrors. Hauptscharfuehrer Thilo was right when he said to me today that this is the 'anus mundi', the anal orifice of the world". I used this image because I could not imagine anything more disgusting and horrific. Article 19501 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:14:23 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3b88ff$dfc@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz: [Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255]. -------------------------------------------------------------- At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner* ordered me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children. As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight. * Maximillian Grabner, Head of Political Department, Auschwitz Article 19502 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:14:48 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 35 Message-ID: <3b88g8$dg3@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Testimony of gas-van driver Walter Burmeister [Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 219-220] ------------------------------------------------------------ As soon as the ramp had been erected in the castle, people started arriving in Kulmhof from Lizmannstadt in lorries... The people were told that they had to take a bath, that their clothes had to be disinfected and that they could hand in any valuable items beforehand to be registered... When they had undressed they were sent to the cellar of the castle and then along a passageway on to the ramp and from there into the gas-van. In the castle there were signs marked "to the baths". The gas vans were large vans, about 4-5 meters long, 2.2 meter wide and 2 meter high. The interior walls were lined with sheet metal. On the floor there was a wooden grille. The floor of the van had an opening which could be connected to the exhaust by means of a removable metal pipe. When the lorries were full of people the double doors at the back were closed and the exhaust connected to the interior of the van... The Kommando member detailed as driver would start the engine right away so that the people inside the lorry were suffocated by the exhaust gases. Once this had taken place, the union between the exhaust and the inside of the lorry was disconnected and the van was driven to the camp in the woods were the bodies were unloaded. In the early days they were initially burned in mass graves, later incinerated... I then drove the van back to the castle and parked it there. Here it would be cleaned of the excretions of the people that had died in it. Afterwards it would once again be used for gassing... I can no longer say what I thought at the time or whether I thought of anything at all. I can also no longer say today whether I was too influenced by the propaganda of the time to have refused to have carried out the orders I had been given. Article 19503 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:15:12 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3b88h0$dgv@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Letter from Dr August Becker to SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rauff, 16 May 1942 [Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1946, Vol III, p. 418] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I ordered the vans of group D to be camouflaged as house trailers by putting one set of window shutters on each side of the small van and two on each side of the large vans, such as one often sees on farm houses in the country. The vans became so well known, that not only the authorities but also the civilian population called the van "death van", as soon as one of these vehicles appeared. It is my opinion the van cannot be kept secret for any length of time, not even camouflaged... Besides that, I ordered that during application of gas all the men were to be kept as far away from the vans as possible, so they should not suffer damage to their health by the gas which eventually would escape. I should like to take this opportunity to bring the following to your attention: several commands have had the unloading after the application of gas done by their own men. I brought to the attention of those S.K [Special Kommando] concerned the immense psychological injuries and damages involved to their health that this work can have for those men, even if not immediately, at least later on. The men complained to me about head-aches which appeared after each unloading. Nevertheless they don't want to change the orders, because they are afraid prisoners called for that work could use an opportune moment to flee. To protect the men from these damages, I request orders to be issued accordingly. The application of the gas is not undertaken correctly. In order to come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. My directions have now proved that by correct adjustment of the levers death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully. Distorted faces and excretions, such as could be seen before, are no longer noticed. Article 19504 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:15:29 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 94 Message-ID: <3b88hh$dh9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench [Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. VIII, p. 313-321] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Q. What was your first impression of Auschwitz when you arrived? A. I had already heard about extermination camps, and particularly extermination camps for Jews, through reports over the Swiss radio that I listened to regularly in the preceding years, but since I considered this news to be propaganda, I did not believe it at the time, because the facts that were being described seemed too terribly outrageous to me. When I arrived in Auschwitz, and had to convince myself personally that these reports were not exaggerated, I was very much shaken emotionally. . . . Q. Mr. witness, you were informed about the fact that human beings were gassed at Auschwitz? A. Yes. . . . Q. Mr. witness, for what reason did you not spread the fact that human beings were being gassed and exterminated? A. I was asked this very often and also before the Supreme Court of Cracow, and I can say in answer to it that that would have been a completely useless undertaking which would have very shortly caused me and my family to be liquidated very quickly, because the Gestapo was so well organized and the threats for nonobservance of the secrecy that surrounded the Auschwitz exterminations were so clearly worded for members of the SS that everybody avoided telling even his closest friend about it, because experience taught us that anybody who talked about it in any way was very quickly found because the Gestapo sniffed out every rumor very consistently that spread about Auschwitz. . . . Q. Mr. witness, what would you say if someone visited a plant in Auschwitz twice or three times a year for a period of one or two days? Would he then have to gain knowledge about these things? A. I repeatedly witnessed guided tours of civilians and also of commissions of the Red Cross and other parties within the camp, and I was able to ascertain that the camp leadership arranged it masterfully to conduct these guided tours in such a way that the people being guided around did not see anything about inhuman treatment. The main camp was shown only and in this main camp there were so-called show blocks, particularly block 13, that were especially prepared for such guided tours and that were equipped like a normal soldier's barracks with beds that had sheets on them, and well-functioning washrooms. . . . Q. Mr. witness, did you personally ever witness the gassing of human beings? A. Yes, I saw one gassing at one time. . . . Q. Mr. witness, you testified a little earlier that those who were sick in the camps, like in concentration camp Monowitz, would be sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau, but I wasn't quite clear as to why they were sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau. I'd like to put just a question or two to you on that. Mr. witness, those people who were in the hospital at Monowitz and were shipped to Auschwitz-Birkenau because of an edema or phlegmon, for what purpose were they shipped to Birkenau? A. As far as these people were Jews, I must state that most of them were gassed. Q. And, Mr. witness, if they were sent from the hospital in Monowitz to Auschwitz-Birkenau, and they were Jews; and they were sent because of weakness and collapse, why were they sent to Birkenau? A. Also to be gassed. Article 19505 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:18:40 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 40 Message-ID: <3b88ng$dju@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: <3b88hh$dh9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu SS-man Theodor Malzmueller on the Chelmno extermination camp [Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 217-219] ----------------------------------------------------------------- When we arrived we had to report to the camp commandant, SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Bothmann. The SS-Haupsturmfuehrer addressed us in his living quarters, in the presence of SS-Untersturmfuehrer Albert Plate. He explained that we had been dedicated to the Kulmhof [Chelmno] extermination camp as guards and added that in this camp the plague boils of humanity, the Jews, were exterminated. We were to keep quiet about everything we saw or heard, otherwise we would have to reckon with our families' imprisonment and the death penalty... The extermination camp was made up of the so-called "castle" and the camp in the woods. The castle was a fairly large stone building at the edge of the village of Kulmhof. It was there that the Jews who had been transported by lorry or railway were first brought... When a lorry arrived the following members of the SS-Sonderkommando addresses the Jews: (1) camp commandant Bothmann, (2) Untersturmfuehrer Albert Plate from North Germany, (3) Polizei-Meister Willy Lenz from Silesia, (4) Polizei-Meister Alois Haeberle from Wuerttenberg. They explained to the Jews that they would first of all be given a bath and deloused in Kulmhof and then sent to Germany to work. The Jews then went inside the castle. There they had to get undressed. After this they were sent through a passage-way on to a ramp to the castle yard where the so-called "gas-van" was parked. The back door of the van would be open. The Jews were made to get inside the van. This job was done by three Poles, who I believe were sentenced to death. The Poles hit the Jews with whips if they did not get into the gas vans fast enough. When all the Jews were inside the door was bolted. The driver then switched on the engine, crawled under the van and connected a pipe from the exhaust to the inside of the van. The exhaust fumes now poured into the inside of the truck so that the people inside were suffocated... -Danny Keren. Article 19506 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:19:02 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3b88o6$djv@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: <3b88hh$dh9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Testimony of SS-Obersturmfuehrer Franz Hoessler [Quoted in "The Belsen Trial" - Edited by R. Phillips, William Hodge and Company, 1949, p. 714-715] ---------------------------------------------------------------- Everyone in the camp knew about the gas chamber at Auschwitz, but at no time did I take part in the selection of prisoners who were to go to the gas chambers and then be cremated. Whilst I was there selection of prisoners for the gas chambers was done by Dr. Klein, Dr. Mengele and other young doctors whose names I do not know. I have attended these parades, but my job was merely to keep order. Often women were paraded naked in front of the doctors and persons selected by the doctors were sent to the gas chamber. . . . I made many complaints to Hoess about the way people were being sent to the gas chamber, but I was told it was not my business. Article 19512 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!news.ecn.bgu.edu!newspump.wustl.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!fas!stara From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: World wide web holocaust site Date: 26 Nov 1994 14:56:24 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts Lines: 61 Message-ID: <3b7iao$k4b@decaxp.harvard.edu> References: <1706BF417S86.DEACON@VM.TEMPLE.EDU> <3ag7s3$cp0@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu> <3agc4j$hse@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: fas.harvard.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote: : In article <3agc4j$hse@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu>, spok+@cs.cmu.edu (John : Ockerbloom) wrote: : > > And since many of the points have been specifically deflated : > >since Raven got here, he can't claim ignorance that he's not aware he's : > >propagating falsehoods. What else! Raven got nothing else but to imbue the net with his rubbish. : You are free to believe that many (or even all) of my points have been : deflated. However, I firmly believe that any fair-minded person would see : that few if any of my points have been deflated. Can you site any specific : claims you think have been deflated? Remember, it was I who asked : repeatedly for the best evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy to : exterminate the Jews in gas chambers. To the best of my knowledge, no one : has offered any such thing, even though we are often told there is a : "mountain" of evidence proving just this point. Hey big historian! Do you remember what happen to Robesierre when he said "I hate the English"? No...! I guess you won't remember. Otherwise you wouldn't anticipate Hitler or any of his circle of hoodlums to publicaly say:" Lieber Deutche volk: Wir hassen die Juden" or Hitler even say that in public, it would mean a suicide. Raven, being in a company of mad men is worst than being in hell. Those who had publicaly spoke about the Nazi plans would have been deemed for the inferno. Maybe you ought to take some time to study the historical events during wwII and maybe by then you might have some ideas on how mad men operate when they get hold of power. : I should mention, having looked over the topics of the last 190 messages, : that the oft-posted "testimonies" are not proof. Many people say they see : flying saucers, but this does not mean that flying saucers exist. Many : people claim to have seen God or even talked with him, but that does not : mean that God exists. We need actual physical proof, which shouldn't be : too difficult to produce if there were actual homicidal gas chambers, and : millions of Jews were killed within those gas chambers. Raven I want to see my Grandparents, aunts, uncles and the rest of my mother's family, prove to me they just died, and weren't smoke it in Auschwitz. Any prove they exist, I would personally claim the holocaust is a hoax. It's about time to tell us what happened to the Six Million Jews? Mr.Historian Raven. I want the facts and nothing but the facts.Now put up or shut up. ============================================================================== ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews) VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS. ==============================================================================
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