Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/raven.greg//1992/genie-topic9.9204
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 385 Wed Apr 01, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche] at 00:37 EST
Jon W. and Reb Dov, together again! :->
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 386 Wed Apr 01, 1992
A.K.QUINN at 02:27 EST
I am told that all "reputable" historians dispute the Holocaust. Are they
reputable because they dispute? Are there no reputable historians who hold the
contrary opinion? Strange logic.
As to Col Beuchner, Medical Corps. I know when the medics brought in 2 field
hospitals -- a day or 2 later. There were several incidents involving American
GI's, I recall some. I point out that on Day 1, the troops who saw the
conditions at Dachau, seasoned combat troops, became very difficult to
control.
They had seen blood and guts from Normandy on, but Dachau was too much.
There were beatings of German soldiers, for sure. If that qualifies as an
"atrocity", OK. By Dachau standards, no.Wrong? Yes. =KevinQ=
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 387 Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH at 03:07 EST
384 Jon: RE: Nolte, Hillgruber, etc. First, they are what _I_ would call
revisionists but, as you point out, they are not Holocaust Deniers. As far as
your question about "revisionists" in Germany, I assume that you are referring
to what I term "Holocaust Deniers." If that is the case, yes, there are
Holocaust Deniers in Germany.
Raven, for instance, plagiarized from Wilhelm Staeglich who is a disbarred
(West) German judge. The plagiarism occurred when Raven quoted word-for-word
from Staeglich's comments regarding the Wannsee Conference Protocols and
didn't bother using quotation marks or citing the source. There is also Ingrid
Weckert who refers to the Kristallnacht pogrom as a "good natured affair" and
refers to the current German gov't as a "rump state" meaning that it is
illegitimate.
One of Weckert's quotes, BTW, is probably the best elaboration I have ever
read on the purpose of Holocaust Denial: "A people lives by its history. In
its history it finds its roots, its understanding of itself. It draws its
strength from its history. History is not merely a matter of the past; it is a
surety for the future. From that it follows: Whoever destroys the history of a
people, who distorts, poisons, or withholds it, severs the artery through
which a people draws nourishment from its past - with that, the people is
doomed."
To All: I have received some comments in e-mail about the documents that I
u/l'ed earlier. Based upon those comments, I would be happy to discuss those
documents with anyone who has further question via e-mail but, because of the
disturbing nature of their content, there are those who prefer that they not
be discussed publicly and I will respect their wishes.
I am assuming that Raven or Rungu will attempt a refutation. If so, they will
probably quote from Mark Weber. If that be the case, I only ask of the
participants (and lurkers) here that you read those comments with great care
and ask yourself one single question: Are any of the statements which refute
the testimony substantiated?
The only other refutation that is ever offered to the IMT on these disturbing
events is that the evidence was produced by the USSR. However, that ignores
the fact that in one case, the defense counsel supported the claims but stated
that the guilty parties had already been tried, convicted and punished by an
SS court; and, in the other case, that two British POWs submitted sworn
statements.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 388 Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY at 03:47 EST
In reply to: Message 308 G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]
-> Of course, we must not ignore the other use for gas-tight doors,
-> which is that it is desireable to have a gas-tight door on a
->morgue so the smell is somewhat contained.
I first began working as an ambulance attendant in April, 1976, and made my
last ambulance run in July, 1988. I was a paramedic from 1982 until 1990, and
have, through the course of my work and training, have been in several
morgues, and I've never seen "gas- tight" doors on a morgue. Please cite a
source for your information.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 391 Wed Apr 01, 1992
M.RUNGU at 05:30 EST
To C.FINK4 (131)
Mr. Raven has pointed our the myriad errors POOH.BAH has indulged in. He has
also gone to great lengths to examine the "documentation" and has shown the
contradictions, unreliability, or irrelevance of various sources and
documents. If you have missed his points on these, I suggest you go back and
read the message streams. This is a far cry from what you describe as
"ignoring the huge amount of documentary evidence" and "slinging baseless
accusations". It would appear that someone OTHER than Mr. Raven likes to do
the mud slinging...
The deaths at Masada, the Rape of the Sabines, and the Battle of New Orleans
are of little interest to historical revisionists because these events are not
riddled with fabrications and errors as the holocaust is, and because these
events have not been used for political purposes rather than historiography as
the holocaust has.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 393 Wed Apr 01, 1992
M.RUNGU at 05:31 EST
To SOFTSERV (134)
I agree with your comments about judging holocaust literature or revisionist
literature on the basis of their CONTENT rather than on the speaker/writer
involved and his/her background.
Concerning the release of historical documentation and evidence from the now
ex-communist regimes in eastern Europe, I will repeat what I said earlier,
that this will be historiographically valuable IF such documents and evidence
are presented to the whole world, openly. But if they are merely released to
a small clique of holocaust writers and holocaust museums for THEM to select,
selectively interpret, selectively dismiss, hide, destroy, or whatever, then
the world is not likely to gain anything. In fact, if this is how the
material will be handled, we are likely to see the same old myths and
distortions "reinforced" in conformity with establishment's view of the
holocaust.
Your excellent analogy of the tobacco industry is very appropriate. Handing
over the documents to the holocaust lobby is equivalent to handing over
research on the effect of cigarettes on our health to the tobacco moguls. If
this takes place, we will get the same sort of "studies" and "findings" that
the tobacco industry has been shoving on us for decade after decade showing us
how "healthy" cigarettes are.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 394 Wed Apr 01, 1992
M.RUNGU at 05:32 EST
To D.BERKOWITZ (140)
SOFTSERV's comments about his Jewish upbringing and the bigotry, intolerance,
and racism he encountered within his own community are absolutely essential to
our understanding of the holocaust, to our understanding of the political,
social, and economic measures taken against the Jews of Europe by both the
Germans and by the non-German Europeans in the occupied territories.
His point was that such racism and intolerance as expressed by Jews towards
non-Jews may have actually CREATED the anti-semitism and the hatred that arose
against them so tragically. Your appeal to have these messages removed and
the subject repressed will only further obscure our understanding of the
holocaust and what did, or did not, happen in that period.
His comments were also linked to his discussion about Professor Faurisson's
experience in France in which he was persecuted, beaten, and his livelihood
harmed merely because he had publicly expressed doubts about the holocaust.
What SOFTSERV is saying is that such measures LEAD TO anti-semitism rather
than prevent it.
If we can understand the holocaust and understand what is fact, and what is
FICTION, and understand the motivations of all participants, both perpetrator
and victim, then perhaps we can ensure that such an event does not happen
again. But if topical areas within the discussion are closed off, we are
merely perpetuating general ignorance on it and, perhaps, helping to bring
ABOUT a holocaust at some point in the future.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 395 Wed Apr 01, 1992
M.RUNGU at 05:33 EST
To AH.STEIN (141, 148)
I am curious to know just precisely WHO are the "group of Nazi sympathizers"
who want to "sweep the mass murder of millions of Jews under the rug"? Will
you name them please? And in naming them I would like to see such accusations
DEMONSTRATED rather than merely wildly thrown about. If such accusations and
sweeping general statements like that are based on assumptions, then what
value are they to this discussion?
On the other hand, if it can be demonstrated or proven to me, and beyond
reasonable doubt, that "millions of Jews" were deliberately "mass murdered",
then I myself certainly would not want that "swept under the rug". But so
far, all I have seen presented are various Einsatzgruppen Reports that are
contradictory in nature (e.g. one tells about executing Jews while another
describes plans for building hospitals for them or taking measures to REDUCE
the death rate amongst Jews), or "eyewitness" accounts that have already been
shown to be absolutely unreliable and historically ludicrous (e.g. the Hoess
"memoirs") or even "Shoah"-type tv pseudo-soap-docs as "proof" and "evidence".
A sweeping historical assertion that "six million Jews were murdered in a
deliberate campaign of mass extermination by the Nazis" bears the onus of
proof. There is no onus of DISproving such a statement on historians or non-
historian writers who doubt the holocaust and who may be defined as "holocaust
revisionists". By way of analogy, let's say I make this statement: "There is
a colony of space-travelling cows that live on planet Jupiter." Then somebody
tells me that they find that hard to believe. I reply that such doubters must
PROVE that there is NOT a such a colony in existence there. Naturally, they
can't. So, triumphantly, I yodel to the world that their failure to DISprove
my original statement PROVES that it must be valid (another lousy Rungu
analogy, I know). The logic stands.
But holocaust revisionists have gone far beyond merely expressing doubt and
skepticism about aspects of the holocaust. They have actually examined the
evidence and the eyewitnesses that are used to support the holocaust thesis,
and have sunk them one by one. The "human lampshades" myth collapsed before
them. The "human soap" canard fell. The wild tales about "mass gassings at
Dachau" evaporated. The "memoirs" and "confessions" of personages such as
Commandant Hoess and Kurt Gerstein have been shown to be false. Recognizing
the insupportability of these tales, "memoirs", and "confessions", the
holocaust lobby now has dropped them altogether and nowadays mainly
concentrates on the spectre of Auschwitz. But that too has come under the
careful gaze of the revisionists, and it also is crumbling away.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 397 Wed Apr 01, 1992
M.RUNGU at 05:34 EST
To AH.STEIN (145)
The "admitted liar" Fred Leuchter? Where or when has Mr. Leuchter described
himself as a "liar"? I think what you are referring to are the mountain of
slander and abuse hurled at him in which "liar" was probably the most
complimentary. Such mud-slinging was and is the method used to "refute" his
forensic findings resulting from his on-site analyses of the various sites at
the Auschwitz camp complex. These findings have invalidated the "mass
gassing" thesis as the cornerstone of the holocaust story.
Other "methods" include shouting him down at events in which he has been a
speaker, physical assaults on his person, and the campaign to pressure his
clients to cease utilizing him as a consultant on execution hardware systems
and operation, in order thereby to deny him an ability to make a living.
Similar methods are employed all over the world to "punish" the expression of
revisionist ideas and findings, and to repress free speech on this subject and
free inquiry in this area.
You also accused (but, again, did not and could not demonstrate) Mr. Raven of
"trying to deny known historical fact". The problem here is what constitutes
such "historical fact". When allusions are made to "heaving, geyser-spurting
bodies" then such cannot be regarded as "fact", any more than "human soap",
"human lampshades" or allegations of "mass gassings" at camps like Dachau can.
I think what many people mean by "known historical fact" is what they ASSUME
to be historical fact or choose to believe to be such in accordance with their
own preconceived ideas or interests.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 399 Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY at 06:20 EST
The usual proviso: the following posts undoubtably contain typos I've missed.
They should be blamed on me, not on the texts themselves...
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 400 Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY at 06:22 EST
The following (and subsequent posts) are taken from the condensed version of
Raul Hilberg's "The Destruction of European Jews", Appendix B, of the revised
edition. Hilberg is one of the foremost Holocaust historians.
Jewish Deaths By Cause
Ghettoization and general privation over 800,000
Ghettos in German-occupied
Eastern Europe over 600,000
Theresienstadt and privation
outside of ghettos 100,000
Transnistria colonies (Romanian
and Soviet Jews) 100,000
Open-air shootings over 1,300,000
Einsatzgruppen, Higher SS and
Police Leaders, Romanian and
German armies in mobile oper-
ations; shootings in Galicia
during deportations; killings
of prisoners of war and shoot-
ings in Serbia and elsewhere
Camps up to 3,000,000
German
Death Camps up to 2,700,000
Auschwitz 1,000,000
Treblinka up to 750,000
Belzec 550,000
Sobibor up to 200,000
Kulmhof 150,000
Lublin 50,000
Camps in the low
tens of thousands
or below 150,000
Concentration camps
(Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald,
Mauthausen, Dachau, Stutthof,
and others)
Camps with killing operations
(Poniatowa, Trawniki, Semlin)
Labor camps and transit camps
Romanian
Golta complex and Bessarabian 100,000
transit camps
Croatian and other under 50,000
_________________________________________
Total 5,100,000
NOTE: Ghettos in German-occupied Eastern Europe, open-air shootings,
and Auschwitz figures are round to the nearest hundred thousand,
other categories to the nearest fifty thousand.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 401 Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY at 06:22 EST
Deaths By Year
1933-1940 under 100,000
1941 1,100,000
1942 2,700,000
1943 500,000
1944 600,000
1945 100,000
_________________
Total 5,100,000
NOTE: Rounded to nearest 100,000
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 402 Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY at 06:23 EST
Deaths By Country
Poland up to 3,000,000
USSR over 700,000
Romania 270,000
Czechoslovakia 260,000
Hungary over 180,000
Lithuania up to 130,000
Germany over 120,000
Netherlands over 100,000
France 75,000
Latvia 70,000
Yugoslavia 60,000
Greece 60,000
Austria over 50,000
Belgium 24,000
Italy (including Rhodes) 9,000
Estonia 2,000
Norway under 1,000
Luxembourg under 1,000
Danzig under 1,000
__________________
Total 5,100,000
NOTE: Borders refer to 1937. Converts to Christianity are
included, and refugees are counted with the countries from which
they were deported.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 403 Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY at 06:26 EST
A report by Dr. Rudolf Lange, who was responsible for operations in
Latvia. This report is from Jan. 1942
--------
At the time of the German invasion there were around 70,000 Jews in
Latvia. At the time of the Bolsheviks considerably more Jews lived in
Latvia, however a large number fled with the Bolsheviks.
The aim of Einsatzkommando 2 from the beginning was a radical solution
of the Jewish problem through the execution of all Jews. For this
purpose comprehensive purges were carried out in the whole area of our
operations by special commandos with the help of selected forces from
the Latvian auxiliary police (mainly relatives of Latvians who had
been abducted or murdered by the Bolsheviks). Around the beginning of
October, the number of Jews executed in the Commando's sphere of
operations was about 30,000. In addition, there are a few thousand
Jews who have been eliminated by the self-defense formations of their
own initiative after they had been given suitable encouragement.
It was impossible to achieve the complete elimination of Jews froom
Latvia in view of the economic factors and, in particular, the demands
of the Wehrmacht. Jewish craftsmen were also used for the
reconstruction of towns which had been destroyed... Where Latvian
specialists were not available the required craftsmen and specialists
were therefore provisionally excluded. However, by the end of October
the rural areas of Latvia at least had been completely purged...
At the beginning of November 1941, there were only around 30,000 Jews
in the Riga ghetto, in Libau around 4,300 and in Duenaberg around
7,000. From this point on around 4-5,000 Jews were executed as a
result of prosecutions for failure to wear the Jewish star, black
market activities, theft, fraud, etc. In addition, the ghettos were
purged of Jews, who were not fully fit for work and no longer
required in major actions. Thus, on 9 November 1941, 11,034 Jews in
Duenaberg and, and the beginning of December 1941, 27,800 Jews in Riga
were executed in a major action ordered and directed by the Higher SS
and Police Leader, and in mid-December 2,350 Jews were executed in
Libau at the request of the Reich Commissioner. The remaining Jews
(2,500 in Riga, 950 in Duenaberg and 300 in Libau) were excluded from
this action because they were good skilled workers whose labor is
still indispensable for the maintenance of the economy, especially the
war economy.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 404 Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY at 06:29 EST
Excerpted from a memorandum dated 27 April, 1942 by Dr. Erhard Wetzel (a
lawyer), who was serving as desk officer in the Reich Ministry for the
Eastern Territories:
"Re: the Solution of the Polish Question
...It should be obvious that one cannot solve the Polish problem by
liquidating the poles in the same way as the Jews. Such a solution to the
Polish problem would burden the German people with guilt for years to come
and lose us the sympathies of people everywhere, particularly since our
neighbors would be bound to reckon that they would be treated in the same way
when the time came."
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 405 Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY at 06:30 EST
From the Commander of Einsatzgruppe A, dated 15 October, 1941:
...Similarly, native antisemitic forces were induced to start pogroms against
Jews during the first hours of the invasion, though this proved to be very
difficult. Carrying out orders, the Security Police were determined to solve
the Jewish question with all possible means and most decisively. But it was
desirable that the Security Police should not put in an immediate appearance,
at least at the beginning, since the extraordinarily harsh measures were apt
to cause a stir even in German circles. It had to be shown to the world that
the inhabitants themselves tok the first measures by way of natural reaction
against the repression by the Jews over several decades and against the
terror exercised by the Communists during the preceding period... It was
anticipated from the beginning that the Jewish problem in the Ostland
[Baltic] would not be solved solely through pogroms. On the other hand, in
accordance with basic orders, the cleansing operation of the Security Police
had the goal of the most comprehensive elimination possible of the Jews.
Extensive executions were thus carried out by special units in the cities and
the plains.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 407 Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY at 06:36 EST
The following posts are excerpted from the diary of SS-Dr. Kremer. The usual
"typo warning" applies...
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 408 Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY at 06:37 EST
From the diary of SS-Dr Kremer
8 August 1942
From 15.8.42 up to the end of the vacation posted to SS-Hospital
Prague.
Friday, 14 August 1942 .. ..
Departure for Prague. Departure Munster 20.40, Osnabruck 0.57, arrival
Dresden 10.12, departure Dresden 11.22, arrival Prague 15.15.
15 August 1942
From Dresden onwards weather sunny and fine. Travelled by tram from the
central station to SS-Hospital Podol and taken to meet the head of the
hospital, Sturmbannfuhrer Dr Fietsch. Accommodations in a patients' room
on 3rd floor, No. 344.
Doctors, etc.
Adjutant: Hstf. Koebel, pharmacist
Head of administration: Stubf. Dorn
Surgeon: Stubf. Winne from Danzig, Liek-Schuler
Internal organs: Stubf. Leppel from Cologne
Skin: Ostuf. Inden from Dusseldorf
Eyes: Oberscharf. Frederking from Langendreer
Radiology: Ostuf. Jung from Aachen
Neurology: Ostuf. Jansen
Sunday, 16 August 1942
Half-day trip round the city to see the sights with Oschf. Frederking
and wife from Langendreer. Afterwards cup of mocha in a cafe (1.50 RM).
20 August 1942
Evening in officers' mess with vintage wine. Present was a doctor from HQ.
21 August 1942
Ordered an SS-Fuhrer cap from the Schutzstaffel [SS] central uniform
office in Berlin through a messenger, but he did not manage to get me
one.
24 August 1942
Bought paper, spectacles and belt. . . .
27 August 1942
Brigadefuhrer Gentzken visited the hospital on his way to Karlsbad.
Spoke about a repudiation of intellectualism especially by Goebbels, a
gradual erosion of the Hochschulen and of a Ministry for Population
Policy.
28 August 1942
Sent to buy caps in Berlin. On leaving informed by reception that the
commanding officer wished to speak to me. He informed me that on Hstf.
Koebel's orders I was not to travel to Berlin.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 409 Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY at 06:38 EST
29 August 1942
Received orders (F.S.HSSZ 2150 28.8.42 1833 No. 1565) to report to
Auschwitz concentration camp, which reportedly is one doctor short due
to illness.
30 August 1942
Departure Prague 8.15 via Bohemian Trubau, Olmutz, Prerau, Oderberg.
Arrival in Auschwitz CC 17.36. In camp quarantine because of numerous
infectious diseases (typhus fever, malaria, diarrhoea). . . .
Receive strictly secret orders from area medical officer Haupt-
sturmfuhrer Uhlenbrock and am accommodated with the Waffen-SS in a hotel
room (26).
31 August 1942
Tropical climate, 38 degrees in the shade, dust and countless flies!
Food in the officers' mess excellent. This evening we had e.g. pickled
duck's liver for 0.40 RM, plus stuffed tomatoes, tomato salad, etc.
Water is contaminated, so we drink soda water, which is provided free of
charge (Mattoni). First inoculation against typhus feber. Photographs
for camp pass.
1 September 1942
Wrote off to Berlin for officers' cap, belt, braces. In afternoon
attended block gassing with Zyklon B against lice.
2 September 1942
3.00 a.m. attended my first Sonderaktion. Dante's Inferno seem to me
almost a comedy compared to this. They don't call Auschwitz the
extermination camp for nothing!
3 September 1942
For the first time came down with the diarrhoea with vomiting and
colic-type attacks of pain which have hit everyone here in the camp. It
cannot be the water as I have not drunk a drop, nor can it be the bread,
as those who have only eaten white bread (special diets) have also come
down with it. Most probably the reason is the unhealthy continental and
very dry tropical climate with its dust and masses of vermin (flies).
4 September 1942
To combat the diarrhoea: 1 day of gruel and peppermint tea, followed by
a week's special diet. Charcoal and Tannalbin at intervals. Already
considerably better.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 410 Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY at 06:39 EST
5 September 1942
In the morning attended a Sonderaktion from the women's concentration
camp (Muslims)(1); the most dreadful of horrors. Hschf. Thilo - army doctor
- was right when he said to me that this is the 'anus mundi'. In the
evening towards 8.00 attended another Sonderaktion from Holland. Because
of the special rations they get of a fifth of a litter of schnapps, 5
cigarettes, 100 g salami and bread, the men all clamour to take part in
such actions. Today and tomorrow (Sunday) work.
6 September 1942
Today Sunday, excellent luncheon: tomato soup, half a chicken with
potatoes and red cabbage (20 g fat), dessert and wonderful vanilla
ice-cream. After the meal the new medical officer, Obersturmfuhrer
Wirths, who comes originally from Waldbroel, was welcomed.
Sturmbannfuehrer Fietsch in Prague was his former regimental doctor.
I have now been in the camp for a week but I still have not
completely got rid of the fleas in my hotel room despite all
countermeasures with Flit (Cuprex) etc.
I gained a refreshing impression when I made my first visit to the
commandant's adjutant. Above the door to his office is the sign
'Cyclists dismount' painted on paper. Also hanging in the office of our
SS local HQ was the noteworthy piece of verse:
In life you hit the mark a thousand times
They see it, nod and walk on by;
But the most insignificant carper never forgets
if you miss your target a single time.
In the evening at 8.00 went to another Sonderaktion outside.
7 September 1942
Second inoculation against typhus fever. Today rainy and cooler weather.
9 September 1942
This morning received excellent news from my lawyer in Munster, Prof.
Dr Hallermann: from the first of this month I am divorced from my wife.
I can now see life in all its colors again. A black curtain has risen
from my life! Was later present as the doctor at corporal punishment of
eight prisoners and an execution with small-bore rifle. . . .
Received soap flakes and two bars of soap. At midday a civilian came
bounding up to my bike outside the sick-bay like an assassin, ran
alongside me and asked me to tell him whether I was not Regierungsrat
Hemm from Breslau, to whom I apparently bear a striking resemblance. He
had fought together with the gentleman during WWI. How many Doppelganger
do I have in the world? In the evening went to a Sonderaktion (4th).
10 September 1942
In the morning attended a Sonderaktion (5th).
11 September 1942
Today Obersturmbannfuhrer Lolling at the camp. ONly when introduced to
him did I find out for the first time that I am replacing
Hauptscharfuhrer Kitt, who is now convalescing in Obersalzberg.
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(1) A "nickname" referring to the posture of those who were so malnourished
that they sat in a position resembling Muslims at prayer.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 411 Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY at 06:40 EST
14 September 1942
For the second time had the Auschwitz illness. Temperature of 37.8.
Today had the third and last injection against typhus fever.
17 September 1942
Today ordered all-weather coat from the Kleiderkasse in Berlin,
measurements: neck to waist 48, total length 133, half back/back top 22,
shoulders to elbows 51, whole-arm length 81, chest 107, waist 100, seat
124. Enclosed a uniform coupon, i.e. for a weatherproof coat. Today
visited women's camp, Birkenau, with [camp doctor] Dr Meyer.
20 September 1942
Today, Sunday, in the afternoon heard a concert between 3-6 o'clock in
the prisoners' chapel in wonderful sunshine. The conductor was the
director of the Warsaw State Opera. 80 musicians. For lunch there was
roast pork, in the evening baked tench.
21 September 1942
Wrote to Police HQ (Criminal Branch) at Cologne about Otto. In the
evening duckling. Dr Meyer told me about a congenital nasal defect in
his father-in-law's family.
23 September 1942
Tonight sixth and seventh Sonderaktion. In the morning Obergruppenfuehrer
Pohl and party arrived at the Waffen-SS quarters. A guard was standing
outside the door and was first to stand attention before me. In the
evening, at 20.00 hours, dinner with Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl in the
officers' mess, a real feast. There was baked pike, as much as you
wanted, real ground coffee, excellent beer and open sandwiches.
25 September 1942
Gruppenfuehrer Grawitz at HQ and camp. During the visit he asked me to
tell him what the first thing was a doctor would recommend in infectious
diseases cases. Of course I could not really give him an answer since
there's no such thing as a general panacea. And what did he have in
mind? When I heard, I couldn't believe it: a laxative! - As if a doctor
would intervene with a laxative for every cold, throat infection,
diphtheria, let alone adbominal typhus! Medicine just can't be
schematized like that, quite apart from the fact that the young
inexperienced doctor at the SS office just a few days earlier had killed
someone with a freshly perforated stomach ulcer by prescribing
castor-oil blindly.
27 Septemberr 1942
Today, Sunday evening, 4-8 o'clock, Community House social evening with
supper, free beer and tobacco. Speech from Commandant Hoess and musical,
as well as theatrical presentations.
28 September 1942
Tonight attended eighth Sonderaktion. Hauptsturmfuehrer Aumeier told me
that Auschwitz concentration camp is 12 km long, 8 km wide and 22,000
Morgen [approx. = to acres] in area. Of these 12,000 acres are under the
plough
and 2,000 acres fish ponds.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 412 Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY at 06:41 EST
3 October 1942
Today fixed fresh living material from human liver and spleen as well as
pancreas, also fixed lice from typhus-fever patients in absolute
alcohol. In Auschwitz whole streets have gone down with typhus. Today
had myself administered with the first serum injection against abdominal
typhus because of this. Obersturmfuehrer Schwarz has gone down with
typhus fever!
6 October 1942
Obersturmfuerhrer Entress had an accident on his motor bike. Applied
dressing, Commandant Hoess fell from his horse. Wirths still not back.
7 October 1942
Attended 9th Sonderaktion (foreigners and Muslim women). Wirths back at
work. Replacing Entress in men's camp (examinations, etc).
9th October 1942
Sent off a parcel with 9 pounds of soft soap worth 200 RM to Muster.
Weather: raining.
10 October 1942
Extracted and fixed fresh live material from liver, spleen and pancreas.
Got prisoners to make me a signature stamp. For first time heated the
room. More cases of typhus fever and Typhus abdominalis. Camp quarantine
continues.
11 October 1942
Today, Sunday, there was a roast hare for lunch - a real fat leg - with
dumplings and red cabbage for 1.25 RM.
12 October 1942
Second innoculation against typhus, later on in evening severe
generalized reaction (fever). Despite this in the night attended a
further Sonderaktion from Holland (1,600 persons). Ghastly scenes in
front of the last bunker! (Hoessler!) That was the 10th Sonderaktion.
13 October 1942
Untersturmfuehrer Vetter arrived. Sturmbannfuehrer Caesar also gone down
with typhus after his wife died of it only a few days ago. Attended the
sentencing and subsequent execution of seven Polish civilians.
14 October 1942
Received all-weather coat (size 52) from Berlin. Price 50 RM. On the
suggestion of the Santitaetsamt inquired about the start of the winter
semester with the vice-chancellor's office.
15 October 1942
Tonight the first hoar-frost has appeared outside. In the afternoon it
was sunny and warm again. Extracted fresh live liver, spleen and
pancreas material from an ictus [jaundice] case.
16 October 1942
Soap, soap flakes, sewing material. This morning sent off the second
packet worth 300 RM to Frau Wizemann. In the camp had a Jew with
syndactyly [= webbed hands or feet] photographed (father and uncle same
condition).
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 413 Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY at 06:42 EST
17 October 1942
Attended trial and eleven executions. Extracted fresh live material from
liver, spleen and pancreas after injection of pilocarpin. Went to
Nikolai with Wirths. Before we went he informed me that I would have to
stay longer.
18 October 1942
Attended 11th Sonderaktion (Dutch) in cold wet weather this morning,
Sunday. Horrible scenes with three naked women who begged us for their
lives.
19 October 1942
Went to Kattowitz with Obersturmfuehrer Wirths and Frau Hoess to buy
epaulettes for the weatherproof coat. Came back via Nikolai.
24 October 1942
Six women from the Budyer revolt killed by injection (Klehr).
25 October 1942
Today, Sunday, wonderful autumn weather, went on bike tour to Budy via
Roisko. Wilhelmy back from his trip to Croatia (plum brandy).
31 October 1942
Wonderful autumn weather for about two weeks, hence day in, day out
sun-bathing in the garden of the Waffen-SS house. Even the clear nights
are relatively mild. Because Thilo and Meyer on home leave I am acting
troops doctor. Have to visit my HQ so applied for five-day leave to
visit SS-Hospital Prague.
1 November 1942
Today, Sunday, after duty at the medical centre, mainly taking blood
samples from venules, left Auschwitz on the fast train for Prague at
13.01. Raining during the journey, train was completely packed. In the
evening at about 22.30 arrived in Prague where I took several trams in
complete darkness until I finally reached the SS hospital and was then
packed off upstairs by a sister, whom I knew already. Was put up for the
night on an ottoman in Dr Schreiber's office.
2 November 1942
Was dragged from my dreams and from the primitive horse-blanket bed by
Dr Schreiber. After breakfast in the kitchen of the officers' house
handed over the three parcels with boots and apple compote for Munster,
worth 300 RM. Then went to see Chef Sturmbannfuehrer Fietsch and then
usual lunch at 'German House'. Later collected my parade boots (32 RM)
in Gertengasse and returned to first-class stew at 17.30 in the
officers' house with plenty of meat. . . .
3 November 1942
After breakfast took the 17 to market where I managed to find press
studs and a swish potato grater. From there back to the centre where I
ordered myself some glasses for lecturing for 14.50 RM and went back to
the 'German House' for lunch. At 3 o'clock I then visited the Viktoria
cinema to watch 'Andreas Schlueter'. I was positively surprised by the
extremely stylish and tasteful decor of the place and must say that I
don't think I have ever been to such an elegantly appointed cinema
before. The film was made on an enormous budget. Heinrich George was
outstanding. He portrayed once again how in this life a person with
creative leanings does not find the appreciation he deserves from his
fellow men and finally perishes amid intrigues and hostilities. The
final message made a deep impression on me after my own experiences:
'Life does not go on for ever but the work remains eternal.'
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 414 Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY at 06:43 EST
4 November 1942
This morning first thing tried to take some photographs of Prague Castle
from the Oberlandrat building and the Mauerbrucke. The light was very
capricious. Then shopping in the old city, where I managed to buy a
fountain pen for 7.50 RM near the Alstaetter-Ring and a lady's handbag.
Then back for a stew in the hospital at 12.30. Here I was told that I
had to vacate my room as an Obersturmbannfuehrer wanted to take it over.
I then took my cases into the room belonging to a patient from IIb, in
the accident ward. After lunch he however then had the foresight to
throw a cursory glance into my room and immediately thought better of
the swap, so I was then able to move back upstairs with my suitcases.
Ther person in question was Obersturmbannfuehrer Deutsch, who told me
that Sturmbannfuehrer Fietsch had been his regimental doctor. It turned
out he also knew Obersturmfuehrer Wirths well and he asked me to send him
his best regards. He is, as he told me, somewhat weak-willed and has all
kinds of problems with his wife and children.
Some time after lunch I went back into town, photographed Wenceslas
Square from the Landesmuseum as well as the Theinkirche. Then I picked
up my spectacles and went to the Willy Forst filem, 'Operette', which
had been described as a massive success and was already playing in its
second week at the Astra in Wenceslas Square. Maria Holst was excellent
in the female lead role. I was completely enchanted when I left yet
another first-rate and elegantly appointed picture-house: One can only
manage one thing at a time - either love or work - both at the same time
are not possible. If success is there then it happens as to a mountain
climber who has reached the summit. The striving is over, one is lonely
and isolated. At any rate the film with its Makart scene, its Straussian
operettas and its refined and magnificent song-and-dance numbers is
quite disturbingly enchanting.
5 November 1942
In the morning sent off fourth parcel, value 300 RM, to Frau Wizemann.
Contents: lady's handbag with fountain pen, spectacles, etc., parade
boots, writing paper, brown shirts, potato grater, etc. Then a little
shopping in town and lunch at the 'German House'. Gloomy, rainy weather.
In the evening packed for tomorrow's departure at 8.00 and evening in
the mess where I put away a whole litre of a wonderful-tasting Bulgarian
red wine which really put me in a good mood. Didn't get to bed until
12.00.
6 November 1942
Woken early at 6.00 by the sister and was already at the station (trams
21 and 7) not long afterwards, where I boarded the fast train to
Maehrisch-Ostrau at 8.10. In Prerau I boarded the fast Vienna-Cracow
train and had just entered a second-class compartment when a
Generalmayer [brigadier] started up a conversation with me. I was alone
with him for almost the whole journey, and he told me about his
experiences at the front and shook me by the hand when he had to get
off. Journey time from Prague to Auschwitz over nine hours. On arrival I
immediately went to the officers' mess, where once again I ate until I
was really full.
8 November 1942
Tonight took part in two Sonderaktionen, in rainy and gloomy autumn
weather (12th and 13th). In the morning Hauptscharfuehrer Kitt, a pupil
of mine from Essen, came and paid his respects to me at the sick-bay. In
the afternoon another Sonderaktion, the 14th I have participated in up
to now. In the evening cosy evening company in the Fuehrerheim as guest
of Hauptsturmfuehrer Wirths. There was Bulgerian red wine and Croatian
plum brandy.
10 November 1942
Today first light snowfall. Frost during the night.
13 November 1942
Extracted fresh live material (liver, spleen and pancreas) from a
previously photographed, severely atrophied Jewish prisoner aged
eighteen. Fixed as always, liver and spleen in Carnoy [fixing solution]
and pancreas in Zenker [fixing solution] (Prisoner No. 68,030).
14 November 1942
Today, Saturday, variety show in the communat house (really big!).
Particularly popular were the dancing dogs and the two bantams which
crowed to order, the wrapped-up person and the cycling group.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 415 Wed Apr 01, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 07:17 EST
398 M.RUNGU:
"So now we have the spectacle of a Jewish person being slandered with "Capo"
and "Judenrat epithets."
I didn't -slander- anyone. I did not accuse Schulman of being one of the
abovementioned things (By the way, you can't be a Judenrat; just a member of
it) -- I merely said that he reminds me of them. This is neither slander nor
a personal attack. Merely a statement of fact.
BTW, as part of an increasingly dangerous rash of censorship decisions,
Graffiti followed your wishes that my post be deleted. Mazel Tov. (That's Jew
for "Congratulations.")
If you again incorrectly accuse me of slander, M.RUNGU, I will consider you
guilty of it, and will take the appropriate action. Better you should
understand the mother tongue before misusing it.
Love,
Dave
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 416 Wed Apr 01, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 07:25 EST
M.RUNGU:
Along with everybody else, I still await with deepest interest the story of
how you, a self-proclaimed ignorant, became one of our leading authorities on
denial in a 24-hour period. You would not only be satisfying a source of
increasingly burning curiosity, but you'd be doing me a huge favor, as well. I
have a huge research project to submit in 5 weeks, and if you could tell me
your secret, I'd be deeply in your debt.
Love,
Dave
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 417 Wed Apr 01, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 07:45 EST
396 M.RUNGU
One finds your figure of 600,000 dead...er...thought-provoking, to say the
least. Is this your own body-count, or can you cite a source?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 418 Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH at 07:48 EST
Rungu: You still have not answered the questions in message 328 nor cited any
message in which I made the statements of which you have accussed me.
I guess we need to remember the German truism: Keine Antwort ist auch eine
Antwort - No answer is also an answer.
Therefore, please admit that you were in error when you made your accusations
against me.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 419 Wed Apr 01, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:17 EST
389 Rungu:
>Some say that the Israelis are
"more Nazi than the Nazis" ...
How true. You just forgot to point out that those "some" are all
anti-semites, and that they're lying.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 420 Wed Apr 01, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:18 EST
>Message 390 Wed Apr 01, 1992
>M.RUNGU at 05:30 EST
>You asked why the various holocaust "survivors"'s accounts are so
unreliable.
>Sometimes it is ...; sometimes ...; sometimes ...
>The problem is that SOME accounts are undoubtedly true and accurate, but
that it is so difficult to separate the FACTUAL accounts from the far more
numerous FICTIONAL ones, that they are drowned out.
Interesting message. By acknowledging that some accounts are "undoubtedly
true and accurate," you clearly admit that your effort to deny the
Holocaust is a fraud. That, of course, brings up the interesting question:
why are you trying to convince people that something you know happened
didn't?
I will compliment you on apparently having the ability to perform the
difficult task of separating the factual accounts from the inaccurate ones.
What's your secret?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 421 Wed Apr 01, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:18 EST
>Message 391 Wed Apr 01, 1992
>M.RUNGU at 05:30 EST
> To C.FINK4 (131)
>Mr. Raven has pointed our the myriad errors POOH.BAH has indulged in.
Funny. I must have missed that. I haven't seen him point out any such
errors.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 425 Wed Apr 01, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:20 EST
>Message 397 Wed Apr 01, 1992
>M.RUNGU at 05:34 EST
The "admitted liar" Fred Leuchter? Where or when has Mr. Leuchter
described himself as a "liar"?
When he admitted misrepresenting his credentials and licensing.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 426 Wed Apr 01, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:21 EST
398 Rungu:
> ... Mel Mermelstein's frivolous legal actions against the Institute for
Historical Review ...
Somehow, the court did not agree with your assessment, and ordered the
Institute for Historical Misrepresentation to pay up.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 427 Wed Apr 01, 1992
ERIC-M at 18:38 EST
>>> POOH.BAH
> The next 6 were posted to demonstrate how a "paper trial" can be
> discovered for different occurences under the Nazis AND to indicate how
> sadistic some "scientific" aspects were.
How do we know that this "paper trail" was really left by the Germans and not
fabricated by the Allies? (Yeah, I know this kind of sounds like I'm a
planted shill. >grin>)
I know that we can't prove with absolute certainty that these documents are
originals, but what evidence is there to support this?
/
|/ ric
|/
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 428 Wed Apr 01, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 18:39 EST
Termy, the Kremer entries ... the gross indifference is chilling. I recognize
the entry 18 October 1942. That is the entry Faurisson lied about. French
scholar George Weller debunked those lies.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 429 Wed Apr 01, 1992
D.BERKOWITZ at 18:41 EST
Scaramouche- those are the left and right hand clapping! [g]
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 430 Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:55 EST
This series of documents will start with euthanasia and trace the killing
through the extermination program....in just 13 documents.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 431 Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:55 EST
1.Sept.1939
Reischsleiter Bouhler and Dr. Brandt are commissioned under responsibility to
expand the authority particularly of designated doctors so that they can
euthanize after they become aware of people who are seized by incurable
sickness as determined by critical review of the state of their illness.
Adolph Hitler
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 432 Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:56 EST
Minutes from Steering Group Meeting of the Euthanasia Program
9 October 1939
Brack: Today's meeting is concerned with the final clarification of the
questions: who? and how? Both questions belong together. Dr. Linden
will report on the first.
Linden: Today forms are being sent to all asylums together with a circular
from the Reich Interior Ministry...It is anticipated that the forms
will be returned within three weeks since a deadline of 1 November
has been given. In reply to a question from party comrade
Blankenburg: No suspicions can arise as to the real purpose of the
forms because the reason given for them in the circular is
rationalization.
Brack: Thanks Party Comrade Linden and comments on the number of anticipated
cases. The number is arrived at through a calculation on the basis of
a ratio of 1000:10:5:1. That means out of 1,000 people 10 require
psychiatric treatment; of these 5 in residential form. And, of these,
one patient will come under the program. If one applies this to the
population of the Greater German Reich, then one must reckon with 65-
75,000 cases. With this statement the question of "who?" can be
regarded as settled.
Heyde: Commented on the question of "how?" The number referred to by Party
Comrade Brack also tallies with his own estimation. It makes the
proposed method of injections put forward by Professor Nitsche
unviable. For the same reason, the use of doses of medicine is also
impossible.
Nitsche: Disagrees.
Werner: The question has been discussed with the director of the Reich
Criminal Police Department, Nebe. We are in agreement with him that
CO (Carbon Monoxide) is the best method.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 433 Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:57 EST
From the instruction sheet for the questionnaire for the euthanasia program:
All patients are to be reported who:
1. suffer from the diseases enumerated below and who within the institution
can be occupied not at all or only at the most mechanical work (picking,
etc.)
Schizophrenia,
Epilepsy (indicate if exogenous, war-related or other causes)
Senile disorders,
Therapy-resistant paralysis and other Lues [syphilitic] diseases,
Retardation from whatever cause,
Encephalitis,
Huntington's chorea and other terminal neurological conditions;
OR
2. have been continuously in institutions for at least 5 years;
OR
3. are in custody as criminally insane;
OR
4. do not possess German citizenship or are not of German or related blood
(footnoted)
Accompanying footnote: Jew, Jewish Mischling [half-breed] 1st and 2nd class,
Negro, Negro Mischling, Gypsy, Gypsy Mischling.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 434 Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:58 EST
Report to Gau HQ in Nuremberg
From Nazi Party Leader - Ansbach/Bavaria
12 June 1940
The transfer of patients from the asylums, lunatic asylums etc. to other
areas naturally could not be concealed from the public.
It appears that the commission involved have worked too fast, have not always
been skilful and that some mistakes have been made. It cannot be avoided that
individual instance become know and talked about.
The following cases should not, of course, have been allowed to happen:
(1) A family received two urns by mistake.
(2) A death notice gave the cause of death as appendicitis. But the appendix
had been removed ten years before.
(3) Another cause of death was spinal disease. But the relatives had visited
the man only eight days earlier when he was completely healthy.
(4) A family received a death notice when the woman is still living in the
asylum and is in the best of health.....
In the case of these extremely delicate measures it is very difficult to make
suggestions as to how one can counteract the spreading of facts or of rumors
which derive from them or are invented.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 435 Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:59 EST
Schlegelberger's Speech
Conference of the Senior Court Presidents and Public Prosecutors
23-24 April 1941
You, gentlemen, must be the means by which, or even better the source from
which, a knowledge of this need to fit in flows directly and ruthlessly to
your subordinates in every sphere. From this there derives for me the duty of
making you aware of all the decisions of the Fuehrer which are of importance
for your official actions. You must not only be aware of rumors but also know
the facts. If this does not occur then it is inevitable that judges and
prosecutors will act against measures which they in good faith but
erroneously consider to be illegal and so will innocently put themselves in
conflict with the will of the Fuehrer to the serious detriment of justice and
of the state. Gentlemen, in your oral and written reports you continually
express doubts concerning the question of the DESTRUCTION OF LIFE UNWORTHY OF
LIFE.
You report about incredible rumors going round among the people and you
complain that you are not in a position to enlighten people because you lack
information about these matters. This complaint is justified. I have,
therefore, soon after taking over the Ministry, sought an opportunity to
clarify the matter for myself and, at this point, I would like to thank the
chief of the Fuehrer's Chancellery, Reichsleiter and Party Comrade Bouhler
for the detailed explanation. I am even more grateful to him for agreeing to
allow his leading experts to provide this conference with the information
necessary for [you] to carry out [your] duties. I would like to welcome Herr
Brack and Herr Professor Heyde and ask them to take the floor.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 436 Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:59 EST
Brack's Speech
Conference of the Senior Court Presidents and Public Prosecutors
23-24 April 1941
Not a task for a state body. New problem, no experience, therefore prior
sounding necessary before a law is introduced. A state body unsuitable for
such a task which from the outside appears illegal. Not a matter of the
DESTRUCTION OF LIFE UNWORTHY OF LIFE, but the carrying out of an act of
release for people who are suffering and for their relatives....
Value of the action - not simply pecuniary. Care of these patients ties up a
lot of valuable personnel...
Patient dies of a fictitious cause. Reason: Fuehrer's insistence on secrecy.
Death certificate. Date and cause of death both incorrect. A proper register
is kept at the same time. Now we keep a proper record of the estate which is
what the relatives are most concerned about....
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 437 Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:00 EST
Letter to Reich Minister of Justice
From Roman Catholic Bishop of Limburg
13 August 1941
...Buses arrive in Hadamar several times a week with a large number of these
victims. School children in the neighborhood know these vehicles and say:
"Here comes the murder wagon." After the arrival of such vehicles the
citizens of Hadamar then see the smoke coming from the chimney and are upset
by constant thoughts about the poor victims especially when, depending on the
direction of the wind, they have to put up with the revolting smell. The
consequence of the principles being practiced here is that children, when
quarrelling with one another make remarks like: "You are thick, you'll be put
in the oven in Hadamar." People who do not want to get married or who do not
get the opportunity say: "Get married? No fear. Put children into the world
who then end up going through the stack." Old people are saying "on no
account will I go into a state hospital! After the feeble-minded, the old
will be next in line as useless mouths to feed."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 438 Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:00 EST
Letter to Reichskommissar Ostland Hinrich Lohse
From Dr. Erhard Wetzel
25 October 1941
....With regard to my letter of 18 October 1941, please be informed that
Oberdienstleiter Brack from the Fuehrer's Chancellery has stated his
readiness to assist in the construction of the necessary accommodations and
gassing apparatuses. At the present time we do not have on hand a sufficient
quantity of the apparatuses, so they first must be constructed. Brack's view
is that, since construction of the apparatuses within the Reich would present
far greater difficulties than onsite production, the most expedient course of
action is to send his people directly to Riga, in particular his chemist Dr.
Kallmeyer, who will take the necessary steps from there....
Given the present situation, Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated
without qualms through use of the Brack device. Incidents such as those that
took place during the shootings of Jews in Vilna, according to a report I
have on my desk, can hardly be sanctioned, keeping in mind that the
executions were undertaken openly, and the new procedures assure that such
incidents will no longer be possible....
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 439 Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:01 EST
Kiev, 16.May.1942
Reich Secret Document
To SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rauff
Berlin
The overhauling of the vans of Einsatzgruppe D and C has been completed...
I have had the vans of Einsatzgruppe D disguised as house trailers, by having
a single window shutter fixed to each side of the small vans, and on the
large ones, two shutters, such as one often sees on farm houses in the
country. The vans had become so well known that not only the authorities but
the civilian population referred to them as the "Death Vans" as soon as one
appeared....
I also gave instructions that all personnel should stay as far away as
possible from the vans when the gassing is in progress to prevent damage to
their health in the event of gas leaking out...
The gassing is generally not carried out correctly. In order to get the
Aktion finished as quickly as possible the driver presses down on the
accelerator as far as it will go. As a result the persons to be executed die
of suffocation and do not doze off as was planned....
Dr. Becker
SS Untersturmfuehrer
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 440 Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:02 EST
Letter to Obersturmbannfuehrer Walter Rauff
From Willy Just
5 June 1942
RE: Technical alterations to the special vehicles already in operation and
those in production.
Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 have been processed using three vans
without any faults developing in the vehicles. The well-known explosion in
Kulmhof (Chelmno) must be treated as a special case. It was caused by faulty
practice. Special instructions have been given to the relevant offices in
order to avoid such accidents. The instructions were such as to ensure a
considerable increase in the degree of security.
Further operational experience hitherto indicates that the following
technical alterations are appropriate....
2) The vans are normally loaded with 9-10 people per square meter. With the
large Saurer special vans this is not possible because although they do not
become overloaded their maneuverability is much impaired. A reduction in the
load area appears desirable. It can be achieved by reducing the size of the
van by c. 1 meter. The difficulty referred to cannot be overcome by reducing
the size of the load. For a reduction in the numbers will necessitate a
longer period of operation because the free spaces will have to be filled
with CO. By contrast, a smaller load area which is completely full requires
a much sorter period of operation since there are no free spaces.....
3) The connecting hoses between the exhaust and the van frequently rust
through because they are corroded inside by the liquids which fall on them.
To prevent this the connecting piece must be moved so that the gas is fed
from the top downwards. This will prevent liquids flowing in.....
6) The lighting must be better protected against damage than hitherto....It
has been suggested that lighting should be dispensed with since they are
allegedly never used. However, experience shows that when the rear door is
closed and therefore when it becomes dark, the cargo presses hard towards the
door....It makes it difficult to latch the door.Furthermore, it has been
observed that the noise always begins when the doors are shut presumably
because of fear brought on by the darkness....
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 441 Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:04 EST
Letter to Reichsfuehrer SS Heinrich Himmler
From Viktor Brack
23 June 1942
....some time ago, on the instructions of Reichsleiter Bouhler, I placed some
of my men at the disposal of Brigadefuehrer Globocnik. Following a further
request from him, I have transferred additional personnel. Brigadefuehrer
Globocnik took the opportunity of expressing the opinion that the whole
Jewish action should be carried out as quickly as possible to avoid the
danger of one day finding ourselves stuck in the middle of it in the event of
difficulties forcing us to halt the action. You yourself, Reichsfuehrer, some
time ago expressed to me the opinion that we should work as fast as possible
if only for reasons of concealment. In my opinion, both views, which after
all lead to the same result, are more than justified. Nevertheless, in this
context I would be grateful to be permitted to make the following
observation: I think there must easily be 2-3 million men and women among the
ten million European Jews who are very well capable of working. In view of
the extraordinary difficulties which the labor question poses for us, in my
opinion we should definitely preserve and make use of these 2-3 million.
However, that will only be possible if they are simultaneously sterilized. I
already reported to you about a year ago that people working for me have
concluded the necessary experiments for this purpose. I would like to remind
you of these facts. The kind of sterilization normally carried out on the
hereditarily sick is not feasible in this instance because it would take up
too much time and be too expensive. However, a castration by means of X-rays
is not only relatively cheap, but also could be carried out on thousands in
a very short time.....
If, Reichsfuehrer, you decide to follow this course of action in the
interests of preserving labor material, then Reichsleiter Bouhler is prepared
to provide you with the doctors and other personnel required to carry out
this work......
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 442 Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:04 EST
From the diary of Dr. Johann Kremer
2 April 1942
This morning at three o'clock I attended a special action for the first time.
Dante's hell seemed like a comedy in comparison. Not for nothing is Auschwitz
called an extermination camp.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 443 Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:05 EST
Report to Reichsfuehrer SS Heinrich Himmler
From Alfred Franke-Gricksch
14-16 May 1943
Resettlement of Jews
The Auschwitz camp plays a special role in the resolution of the Jewish
question. The most advanced methods permit the execution of the Fuehrer-order
in the shortest possible time and without arousing much attention. The so-
called "resettlement action" runs the following course: The Jews arrive in
special trains (freight cars) toward evening and are driven on special tracks
to areas of the camp specifically set aside for this purpose. There the Jews
are unloaded and examined for their fitness to work by a team of doctors, in
the presence of the camp commandant and several SS officers. At this point
anyone who can somehow be incorporated into the work program is put in a
special camp. The curably ill are sent straight to a medical camp and are
restored to health through a special diet. The basic principle behind
everything is: conserve all manpower for work. The previous type of
"resettlement action" has been thoroughly rejected, since it is too costly to
destroy precious work energy on a continual basis.
The unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered from outside. They
go down five or six steps into a fairly long, well-constructed and well-
ventilated cellar area, which is lined with benches to the left and right. It
is brightly lit, and the benches are numbered. The prisoners are told that
they are to be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments. They must
therefore completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their clothing
neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will be able to find
their things again after their bath. Everything proceeds in a perfectly
orderly fashion. Then they pass through a small corridor and enter a large
cellar room which resembles a shower bath. In this room are three large
pillars, into which certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar
room. When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room the
doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are dropped down
into the pillars. As soon as the containers touch the base of the pillars,
they release particular substances that put the people to sleep in one
minute. A few minutes later, the door opens on the other side, where the
elevator is located. The hair of the corpses is cut off, and their teeth are
extracted (gold-filled teeth) by specialists (Jews). Then the corpses are
loaded into elevators and brought up to the first floor, where ten large
crematoria are located. (Because fresh corpses burn particularly well, only
50-100 lbs. of coke are needed for the whole process.) The job itself is
performed by Jewish prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
The results of this "resettlement action" to date: 500,000 Jews. Current
capacity of the "resettlement action" ovens: 10,000 in twenty-four hours.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 444 Wed Apr 01, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 22:41 EST
C.Fink4...message 366
University chemistry labs generally have antidote kits for cyanide poisoning.
A vial of amyl nitrate is broken under the victim's nose and breathing is
induced mechanically, if needed. This chemical binds the CN radical and
changes it into a less potent poison. This generates enough time to get the
victim to the hospital to be treated for the poisoning created by the amyl
nitrate.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 445 Wed Apr 01, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 23:07 EST
RUNGU, your 391:
>>Mr. Raven has pointed our the myriad errors POOH.BAH has indulged
>>in. He has also gone to great lengths to examine the "documentation" and
has shown the contradictions, unreliability, or
>>irrelevance of various sources and documents. If you have missed
>>his points on these, I suggest you go back and read the message
>>streams. This is a far cry from what you describe as "ignoring
>>the huge amount of documentary evidence" and "slinging baseless
>>accusations". It would appear that someone OTHER than Mr. Raven
>>likes to do the mud slinging...
First: document any time in which Raven has actually caught Pooh in an
error. He's SAID "error" lots of times, but he's never shown one that I
recall.
I'll stand by "slinging baseless accusations". Raven quoted one of Pooh's
paragraphs and stated that it was wrong, and clearly wrong, but either chose
not to give or could not give any reason why this was so. This is slinging
baseless accusations.
When I said "ignoring the huge amount of documentary evidence", I was
referring to Raven's (and your) constant harping on the idea that the
Holocaust has only been attested to by "unreliable eyewitnesses". He was (and
you are) ignoring the documentary evidence when he said that, although
certainly he does not ignore the documentary evidence when he makes fun of it -
not that his criticisms make much sense.
>>The deaths at Masada, the Rape of the Sabines, and the Battle of
>>New Orleans are of little interest to historical revisionists
>>because these events are not riddled with fabrications and errors
>>as the holocaust is, and because these events have not been used
>>for political purposes rather than historiography as the holocaust
>>has.
Please. First of all, do you really want to claim that the Battle of New
Orleans (just as an example) wasn't used for political purposes? Second, how
does this idea (that these events, all important in some nation's concept of
itself, were allegedly not politically important) negate the fact that only
eyewitness and documentary evidence of them exists? Thirdly, how do you know
that there aren't "fabrications and errors"? You aren't letting your
political agenda decide this, are you?
By the way - no one can "slander" anyone in this medium. Written defamation
is libel.
Carl Fink
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 446 Thu Apr 02, 1992
P.BRADEN [pat.b] at 00:18 EST
re: message 366 ND 444
Hydrogen cyanide is a protoplasmic poison and works on the cellular level by
tying up the enzymes needed for cellular oxidation. The theory behind the
various antedotes, such as amyl nitrate, is based on their ability to convert
hemoglobin to methemoglobin. Cyanide reacts slowly with hemoglobin but rapidly
with methemoglobin. This is supposed to remove the cyanide from the cells and
restore the patient if he/she is not allready dead. However, because it works
at the cellular level, a person can be dead and still continue to breath. But
what's this got to do with the discussion? I only mention it because in
previous debates with Raven on PEN He's tried to make something of it.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 447 Thu Apr 02, 1992
STEPHEN.KAHN [Scarlet I] at 00:47 EST
In message 132 I questioned statements made by M.Rungu about the roles of Jews
in the Soviet Union as being both irrelevant to the topic and being untrue. I
started a new topic (#10) for a discussion of these issues.
After a long silence, Rungu replied in #392 (4/1/92). Although I think the
subject should be discussed in Topic 10, I'm not willing to let his cavalier
dismissal of the issues raised by his unsupported allegations stand
unquestioned. So I will comment more specifically here on these issues.
At that point, Rungu can either provide some documentation for his allegations
or drop the issue. If he does decide to discuss it, then I think all relevant
messages, beginning with #392 and this message, should be moved to Topic 10.
If he doesn't respond, I think that speaks for itself and indicates that he
makes allegations without any facts or documentation to back them up.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 448 Thu Apr 02, 1992
STEPHEN.KAHN [Scarlet I] at 00:50 EST
I'm glad that he admits the issue has little to do with the Holocaust. The one
issue that is slightly relevant is the topic of partisan actions against Jews.
Rungu argues that they resulted from the population's resentment at
persecution by Jewish leaders during the Ukrainian famine and other Soviet
atrocities.
Rungu provides essentially no documentation of these charges. The only sources
he cites are Robert Conquest and Solzhenitsyn. As pointed out in Topic 10,
these "sources" contradict the very arguments that Rungu presents. How can
someone who argues in this fashion be taken seriously?
Anti-semitism in Russia, Eastern Europe, and Europe as a whole far predates
Soviet Communism and the Twentieth Century. (For example, as I'm sure most
readers of this topic know, this is the anniversary not only of Columbus'
visit to the Americas, but also the expulsion of the Jews from Spain.)
Jews were the object of various degrees of persecution (official and
unofficial) throughout their presence in Russia, and the period from 1880-1910
or so was a period of intense pogroms and other persecutions, which were
tolerated and even instigated by the Czarist government.
Ethnic and religious conflicts and persecutions are rife in Eastern Europe,
recurring for scores and even hundreds of years, particularly coming to the
fore in times of stress, suffering and dislocation, just as we see happening
today in the ex-Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, and so on.
It's a much more economical and sensible hypothesis that partisan atrocities
against the Jews during WW II resulted from these centuries-old traditions
than from some "Jewish" persecution during the early years of the Soviet
Union.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 449 Thu Apr 02, 1992
STEPHEN.KAHN [Scarlet I] at 00:54 EST
There were Jews at all levels of the Communist Party. The percentage of
membership was higher than their presence in the general population, but not
remarkably so, and they were still a small percentage of the overall
organization.
The people who advanced in the Communist Party were those who jettisoned their
previous traditions and backgrounds in the name of an extreme ideology and in
the pursuit of personal ambition. They were no more bearers of any Jewish
traditions than Stalin was a bearer of a Christian tradition because he
attended a seminary for several years before embarking on his career as a
revolutionary.
One hardly advanced in the Party by preaching Judaism or Zionism, any more
than by preaching Christianity or democracy or any other belief accept Marxist-
Leninism in general and Lenin's and then Stalin's party line of the week in
particular. Trotsky neither advanced nor fell because of being a Jew. It was
simply irrelevant.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 450 Thu Apr 02, 1992
STEPHEN.KAHN [Scarlet I] at 00:57 EST
Rungu harps on the "Jews Lazar Kaganovitch and Lavrenti Beria?"
There seems to be no evidence that I can find that Beria was Jewish. (And
there's fairly complete agreement that both were ruthless and abominable
people.)
So what's the point? If Rungu is trying to imply there is some sinister cover-
up of Beria's ethnic identity, why does everyone admit Kaganovitch's? Why are
there readily available lists of the of the Jewish of the leading Jewish
Communists? (See THE JEWS OF THE SOVIET UNION, by Benjamin Pinkus.)
So what's the point about Beria? What's one Jew more or less?
And if Rungu is privy to some information about Beria that most leading
historians are not, why doesn't he lay it out, instead of simply repeating it
as a known fact. Given the lack of supporting evidence, it's difficult to
believe that he's doing anything but parroting any particular rumor or piece
of propaganda that he once heard that pops into his head and sounds vaguely
effective.
Again the point is not that there were Jews in the Communist leadership but
that their behavior and allegiance was no different than that of the anyone
else in the leadership, i.e., adherence to a fanatical ideology, and a
ruthless willingness to pursue personal advancement over others.
If there's something uniquely "Jewish" about that, M. Rungu, please explain.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 455 Thu Apr 02, 1992
SOFTSERV [NeilSchulman] at 01:39 EST
If there is that long a list of Jewish writers condemning Israeli treatment of
the Palestinians, then why aren't they supporting Secretary of State Baker's
laying it on the line to Israel to make peace or lose American support?
As for the Warsaw ghetto, I will look into it and report back, when I get past
my deadlines. If I'm wrong, I'll retract.
Neil Schulman
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 456 Thu Apr 02, 1992
SOFTSERV [NeilSchulman] at 01:55 EST
Damn it, I don't want to get sucked into this again.
M.RUNGU, Message 393: Paranoia by one side doesn't justify paranoia on the
other side. You can't walk into this assuming that the documents released by
the post-communist regimes will be tampered with by the mainstream historians.
Stop it.
M.RUNGU, Message 394: Don't draw inferences from my statements that I didn't
intend. It's vicious nonsense to blame anti-Semitism on Jewish bigotry, and
derive from that the idea that the Jews "caused" a Holocaust that you think
didn't kuch happen anyway. Make up your mind.
The main cause of anti-Semitism, as far as I can tell, goes back about two
thousand years. A spin-off religion of Judaism followed a rabbi named Jesus.
The Romans felt he was a threat, and executed him. Later, when Rome became
Christianized, it was a matter of political necessity to put the blame for
that execution elsewhere, and the Jews -- who were mortally offended anyway
that Jesus claimed to be their God -- were a likely candidate for the job.
The grudge match between Christians and Jews has been going on ever since.
M.RUNGU, Message 398. I do not consider the Mermelstein suit frivolous -- I
merely think the criteria used in a criminal case should have been used to
determine which side should have won.
AH.STEIN, 422. I am perfectly comfortable with myself and my religious creed.
"Self-hating Jew" is one of those buzzwords which is used against any Jew who
demands goodness and fairness be applied equally to Jew and Gentile alike.
Can I go now?
Neil Schulman
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 457 Thu Apr 02, 1992
ERIC-M at 02:42 EST
>>> D.FRIEDMAN14
> Along with everybody else, I still await with deepest interest the story
> of how you [M.Rungo], a self-proclaimed ignorant, became one of our
> leading authorities on denial in a 24-hour period.
I'm sure there's a very interesting story there, Dave. And I would guess that
Rungo has been just as factual about this incident as he has been in his
subsequent posts. The guy (gal?) must be a genius to have learned that
quickly.
You'll probably get your answer to that question soon after Raven has backed
up his claim that the Holocaust "hoax" was part of a Zionist conspiracy. I
wouldn't hold my breath on either question, though. :-)
/
|/ ric
|/
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 458 Thu Apr 02, 1992
TERMY at 04:01 EST
Excerpts from a sermon by Cardinal August Count von Galen, Bishop of
Muenster. The following is related to Pooh's post #437, which is also
a clergyman's response to the "T4" program (euthanasia):
...Never under any circumstances may a human being kill an innocent
person apart from war and legitimate self-defense.. On 6 July, I
already had cause to add to the pastoral letter the following
explanation: for some moonths we have been hearing reports that, ono
the orders of Berlin, patients from mental asylums who have been ill
for a long time and may appear incurable, are being compulsorily
removed. Then, after a short time, the relatives are regularly
informed that the corpse has been burnt and the ashes can be
delivered. There is a general suspicion verging on certainty that
these numerous unexpected deaths of mentally ill people do not occur
of themselves...that the doctrine is being followed, according to
which one may destroy so-called 'worthless life', that is kill
innocent people if one considers that their lives are of no further
value for the nation and the state.
...I have been assured that the Reich Interior Ministry and the office
of the Reich Doctors' Leader, Dr. Conti, make it clear that in reality
a large number of mentally ill people in Germany have been
deliberately killed and more will be killed in the future.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 459 Thu Apr 02, 1992
TERMY at 04:02 EST
Thousands of copies of Bishop Galen's sermon were printed and
distributed. The Nazi leadership's response? Read on:
After the ministerial conference Dr. G[oebbels] spoke to me about the
sermon of the Bishop of Muenster. He did not know what one could
effectively do at the moment. I explained to him that in my opinion
there could be only one effective measure, namely to hang the Bishop,
and that I had already informed Reichsleiter Bormann accordingly.
[Party Chancellory propaganda official Walter Tiessler in a minute to
Bormann, dated 13 August, 1941]
------
Certain individuals who frequent another national network will, no
doubt, find special meaning in the above "hang the Bishop".
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 460 Thu Apr 02, 1992
TERMY at 04:04 EST
Message 307 G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]
-> I would never dream of redefining the word. I am using "disinfection"
-> in the same way the Germans used it during WWII, to denote the
-> elimination of pests from buildings, etc. YOU may be attempting to
-> define "disinfection" as applying only against bacteria, but this is
-> your modern usage, not that used by the Germans during WWII.
A "T4 operation" (euthanasia program) statistician's report:
Up to 1 September 1941, 70,273 persons have been disinfected.
Distributed among the individual institutions for the years 1940 and
1941 this figure breaks down as follows:
1940 1941 Total
_____________________________________________________________________
A (Grafeneck) 9,839 9,839
B (Brandenburg) 9,772 9,772
Be (Bernburg) 8,601 8,601
C (Linz)(Hartheim) 9,670 8,599 18,269
D (Sonnenstein) 5,943 7,777 13,720
E (Hadamar) 10,072 10,072
_____________________________________________________________________
Totals 35,224 35,049 70,273
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 461 Thu Apr 02, 1992
TERMY at 04:06 EST
Dr. Eduard Brandt, another T4 statistician used the statistics posted
in the last message to work out the savings made as a result of the
program:
On the assumption that the level of nutrition of the inmates of
asylums will remain the same as at present even after the end of the
war, the savings in foodstuffs in the case of 70,273 disinfected
persoons with an average life expectancy of ten years would be as
follows:
Type of foodstuff kg
______________________________________________________
Potatoes 189,737,160
Meat and sausage products 13,492,440
Bread 59,029,320
Flour 12,649,200
Butter 4,216,440
Butter fat 421,680
Margarine 3,794,760
Bacon 531,240
Quark 1,054,080
Cheese 1,054,080
Special foods 1,686,600
Pastry products 1,475,766
Sago, etc. 421,608
Coffee substitute 3,373,080
Jam 5,902,920
Sugar 7,589,520
Eggs 33,731,040 items
Vegetables 88,544,040
Pulses 4,216,440
Salt and spice substitutes 1,054,080
______________________________________________________
Total 400,244,520 kg
= 141,775,573.80 RM
On the basis of an average daily cost [per patient] of RM 3.50 there
will be:
1. a daily saving of RM 245,955.50
2. a yearly saving of RM 88,543,980.00
3. with a life expectancy of ten years RM 885,439,800.00
in words: eight hundred and eighty-five million four hundred and
thirty-five thousand and eight hundred Reich marks.
i.e., this sum will be or has been saved up to 1 September 1941
through the disinfection of 70,273 persons carried out so far.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 462 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:47 EST
To Carl Fink (regarding 194) ---
> if Pressac says he broke with Faurisson, and Faurisson that he
ejected Pressac, why should we simply accept Faurisson's account ...
?
.
Your question poses a problem because most of us will never meet
either of these two men ... let alone both of them ... so that we
might make our own determination of their characters. Having read
some of the work of both men, I am inclined to believe Faurisson,
however you needn't be bound by my example. If this point truly
troubles you (even though it is hardly one of the main points of the
discussion), I would suggest that you also read samples of both men's
work, and see which you feel has a better grasp of reality. Of
course, this might take some time. Sorry.
---
> I'm not an engineer (or car mechanic), but my knowledge of
chemistry is sufficient to tell me what causes CO production in any
carbon- compound burning engine. To be explicit, it's incomplete
combustion. Now, presume that some Germans are going to gas some
people. Is it beyond their technical prowess to adjust the carburetor
(or whatever fuel-injection system diesel engines use) so that the
mixture is too rich? On most modern cars, one would have to turn what
amounts to a screw. Rich mixture --> more CO.
.
This method works well in an Otto-cycle (spark ignition) engine, but
then, a spark-ignition engine already puts out plenty of CO to effect
the killing process. I don't remember enough of my diesel engine
training to state for certain that you can enrich the mixture on a
diesel engine to produce more CO, but even if you could, why attempt
to make a silk purse from a sow's ear? The Germans not only had
spark-ignition engines, they also had busses that ran largely on
carbon monoxide (that is, there was a CO generator mounted to the
back of the bus to create the CO needed to run the bus). Either of
these vehicles would have been MUCH better for CO exterminations, yet
no one has ever claimed that the Germans used these. Furthermore,
diesel engines are so bad at creating CO that it would be more
efficient to simply lock the victims in a sealed container and wait
for them to run out of air, and vastly more efficient to lock the
victims in a sealed container and ignite a flame inside the container
to hasten the elimination of oxygen from the atmosphere! Either of
THESE methods would not only work better than trying to produce CO
with a diesel engine, and they would have required less of the
precious fuel required to run an engine while exterminating the
victims. The story simply does not make sense.
---
Finally, you comment about CO2 might be accurate, however, all the
accounts claim death by CO. Go figure.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 463 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:48 EST
To Dave Friedman (regarding 209) ---
> Show me evidence of an Allied systematic program of genocide,
similar to the German one.
.
This is a trick question, right? Because there were no systematic
German programs of genocide, and there were systematic Allied
programs of genocide, there is no way to answer this question within
the syntax of the question itself. Clever.
---
However, if you wish to know about Allied genocides, you might check
out the millions starved by Stalin before the war (he was an Ally,
right?), or the atrocities committed against the Sudeten Germans
after the war, or the treatment of the German POW reclassified as DEF
by Eisenhower so he could starve them to death legally, or the
firebombing of German civilians during the war, or the retributions
carried out against Germans by vigilantes after the war, or Operation
Keelhaul, or ... well, perhaps you get the picture.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 464 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:48 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 212) ---
> You have admitted on another network that you have seen Pressac's
book but have not read it. Is this true and, if so, could you please
cite the source for you list of page numbers from Pressac and what
those pages relate? Is this why you are now having such difficulty
citing references for your assertions?
.
Easy. I read several reviews of Pressac's book, and compiled a list
of items that caught my attention. Then I called both the Santa
Monica public library and the Los Angeles city central library in
search of this mysterious book. Neither had it or had heard of it! I
then sallied forth to the Simon Wiesenthal Center, compared my list
against the book to see that the citations were accurate. So no, I do
not have the book and I currently do not have $100 with which to
purchase one. However, I stand by my statements, and point out that
your comments to the contrary do not prove them otherwise ... and you
have a copy of the book!
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 465 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:48 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 215) ---
> Now, if you had read the book, you would realize that Pressac
quoted a number of official sources that claimed different numbers.
Therefore, because these numbers fluctuated, so must the divisor.
.
Whoa! Lemme see if I got this right. Pressac refers to several
sources. None of them has the "right" number. So he creates a
"divisor" that ... when applied to these "wrong" numbers ... makes
"right" numbers? Who supplied these divisors? Why doesn't he simply
quote one source that DOES have the "right" numbers and then stick
with it? And if he does come up with one source with the "right"
numbers, how does he know it is right and the others wrong? And if
the other figures are demonstrably wrong (based on another, better,
source), then why apply a divisor to them to make them "right"?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 466 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:49 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 216) ---
> Excuse me but your original message was concerning Pressac's work.
By your stating that the photos came from the "Duerrfeld file of
Nuremberg trial number 6" that was an implicit statement that that
statement came from Pressac's book. Since it did not, my correction
stands as written.
.
Your reading of my posts is apparently no better than your readings
of the German documents. When I brought up the Duerrfeld reference,
it was in parentheses, as were other of my comments on the excerpts
from Pressac. Your "correction" is nonsense because you completely
twisted my message to suit your own ends, and now you attempt to use
your incorrect interpretation to cloud the real issue: did the photos
come from the Duerrfeld file or not? If you don't know, just say so.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 467 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:49 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 217) ---
> Ah, now I see why you were so uncomfortable with me disclosing the
boiling point of HCN! You should have told me sooner or, since I had
already disclosed it, you perhaps should not have made this
statement.
> Because HCN has such a low boiling point, that means at a
relatively low temperature (25 degrees C or about 77 degrees F) it is
in the form of a gas. Gas does not "cling" to lungs any more than it
does to walls. Gas is easily ventilated and, therefore, does not have
time (as Pressac points out) to impregnate exposed surfaces.
.
Auschwitz lies just above the 50th parallel, or roughly as close to
the North Pole as Winnipeg, Canada. In the summer, it may reach 25.7
degrees (78.3 F), but unless everything is at that temperature or
above, HCN will condense. This means that for most of the year (and
probably much of the day, even in the summer) the "gas chambers"
would have had to be heated. Are there any heaters in the "gas
chambers"? Answer: No.
.
But let's take as a hypothesis that these efficient Germans found
some way to heat these rooms on cool or cold days so they could carry
out the executions without pause. What happens when you start to
ventilate a warm room with cool (or cold) air? You get condensation.
You get pockets of highly concentrated HCN gas. In some instances,
you get concentrations high enough (over 6 percent) to become
explosive. Pressac is not an engineer, and has no concept of how HCN
must be handled. If he was, he would not claim that there was a "gas
chamber" at Auschwitz, when there is not (and never was) so much as a
door separating the Krema from the "gas chamber". I don't mean "no
gas-tight door," I mean no door, which leaves only an open passage
devoid of hinges, seals, etc. This is the person you rely upon to
rebut Leuchter?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 468 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:50 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 220) ---
> BTW, have you seen the video that was taken of him collecting the
samples? It had me laughing so hard I almost died. Some of the
samples he took, he put in nice little baggies....however, he didn't
label them as he took them. Then, other samples he just up and forgot
about his little baggies and stuffed them in his shirt pocket!
> I truly consider that a GREAT scientific method, don't you?
.
No, I don't. But although that may be what you saw, that is not what
occurred. Perhaps you'd better look at it again from an objective
point of view. I called Mr. Leuchter to verify that his handling of
the samples was correct. Not only did he assure me that it was, he
further stated that 1) if it had not been correct his testimony would
not have been accepted at the Zuendel trial, and 2) he received
comments from other engineers that he went overboard in the amount of
care he took in handling the samples.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 469 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:50 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 221) ---
Weren't you the person scolding me for not quoting things Just So?
You should look at my post 182 again, and respond to the entire
comment ... if you can.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 470 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:51 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 223) ---
> The works by Hilberg, Reitlinger, Fleming, Bauer, etc. ARE the
works to which I'm referring when I speak of "scholarly circles" and
Holocaust history.
.
Ahh, so when these "scholarly circles" disagree with each other, I
should just ignore the discrepancies and take the Holocaust story on
faith? This does make things easier ... especially since Hilberg now
says "no Fuehrer order", as he used to. I guess what you are saying
is that the key to studying the Holocaust story is to first believe
in it wholeheartedly, and then discard anything that does not support
that blind faith.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 471 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:51 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 225) ---
> I'm just wondering, however, why you did not include the fact that
Missouri has executed no one during Armontrout's tenure there as
warden?
> You'll find that on page 353 of Lenski's book.
.
You should complain to someone; you received a damaged copy of
Lenski's book. Let me show you what you are missing:
---
"... Though Missouri has executed no one during Armontrout's tenure,
he has witnessed two gassings in other states, and helped with one.*"
.
"* At three minutes past midnight on January 6, 1989, Bill Armontrout
presided over his first execution, and Missouri's first since 1965.
It was accomplished, however, by means of a lethal injection."
---
Interesting error.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 472 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:52 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 238) ---
> There was a de-lousing chamber at Dachau (which was probably one of
the gas chambers that Kevin saw) and there WAS a gas chamber....but
it was never used.
.
Correction: it has been variously reported that there was a "gas
chamber" at Dachau that was never used, but I could make a similar
statement about the spare bedroom in my house. Your statement about a
"gas chamber" at Dachau is therefore misleading.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 473 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:52 EST
To Termy (regarding 242) ---
> Scientific method calls for a control sample to be taken from an
unaffected source, not from a source known to be affected. Leuchter's
use of samples taken from the delousing chambers in Block 3 as
controls is equivalent to using a group that's administered 10 times
the therapeutic level of a drug when testing that medication's
effectiveness. Instead of using a sample that's known to be
contaminated, he would have, if using proper scientific method, taken
a sample from a source in the same vicinity which was not known to
have been exposed to HCN, then compared the levels of cyanic
compounds in it, the Krema samples and Block 3 samples.
.
I disagree. Leuchter was looking for the presence of something. To
establish what it looks like when you find that something, he needed
to take a sample from a known exposed surface. Had he not done this,
ALL his samples would have come back with no trace of cyanide
compounds. This would not have changed the results much, but it would
have been virtually impossible for anyone but an expert to judge the
results on their own. By including a sample of a known contaminated
surface, Leuchter provided a basis for comparison.
---
> Allow me to clarify for you and to eradicate the misunderstanding
which Time- Life has apparently placed in your mind. There were six
extermination camps. These were Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno
(Kulmnoff), Majdanek, Sobibor and Treblinka.
> Please note that Dachau, Mathausen, Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald,
etc., are missing from this list.
.
Let me do some clarification of my own. In 1949 or 1950, when this
book was being written/assembled, the editors at Time-Life "knew"
only of death camps that you now say were not death camps. In other
words, the Holocaust story was still in its formative stages at this
late date ... to the extent that reasonably well-informed people
(such as the editors at T-L) were COMPLETELY wrong about the "death
camps". It was not until a few more years had passed, that we saw the
show trials that established the "death camps" in Poland. And, as
even Pooh.bah acknowledges, trials DO NOT establish history.
.
Therefore, we see a myth in the making. I will be generous and say
that the editors of Time-Life were probably repeating some of the
wartime propaganda. By the time that propaganda story began to break
down, the Auschwitz story was well on its way to being ensconced.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 474 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:53 EST
To Dave Friedman (regarding 315) ---
> People do indeed have poor memories for some things. Where they
left the car keys, whether they fed the dog, going to class (oops.
). Spending time in a concentration camp, being caught in an
"Aktion," the smell of burning flesh, etc. don't quite fall into the
same category.
> Since this is common sense, you must have another reason for
considering Holocaust victims' testimony suspect. Or do you propose
to tell me that there is no difference???
.
In the face of overwhelming evidence that eyewitnesses are unreliable
(even Jewish ones!), I would need more than simply your assertion to
the contrary. I refer you to my message 301 on this, which ... if
read in full ... addresses your question.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 475 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:53 EST
To John Stengel (regarding 317) ---
> Lets assume the Governor cuts the Warden's budget ... (and etc.)
.
These paragraphs seem to be nothing more than a figment of your
imagination. Am I supposed to respond to them?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 476 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:53 EST
To B.Eaton2 (regarding 318) ---
> The burden of proof rests with you. What evidence do you have that
the Holocaust never existed?
.
I'll ask it before and I'll ask it again: what proof would be
considered adequate to establish that something did NOT happen? Once
you figure out the answer to this question, you will understand why
the burden of proof is on the exterminationists, not the
revisionists.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 477 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:54 EST
To Kevin Quinn (regarding 319, et al) ---
Because your account(s) of Dachau are fairly similar to other
accounts I have heard from U.S. soldiers who were there, and because
all of you are incorrect in your impressions, the next question has
to be: "What were you told to expect upon entering Dachau?" That is,
were you subjected to any propaganda, briefings, rumors, etc. that
might have lead you (and others) to jump to an erroneous conclusion?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 478 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:54 EST
to Termy (regarding 320) ---
> I should think that the CENTRAL fact concerning Holocaust is that
approximately so many millions of people were killed simply because
they were Jewish or Gypsy.
.
If you take as a central fact the very point that you should be
attempting to prove, then you have short-circuited the debate, and
are in fact looking only for items that support your preconceived
notion of what happened.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 479 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:55 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 334) ---
> ... could you please define "eyewitness testimony?"
.
In the context of the Holocaust story, no, I cannot define
"eyewitness testimony" ... at least not simply. It seems to consist
of a ragged mish-mosh of rumor, innuendo, invention, exaggeration,
etc., as long as the "testimony" is leveled against the Germans. This
includes testimony given under oath. To the best of my knowledge,
none of those who would normally be called "eyewitnesses" for the
"defense" (that is, those who were at the "death camps" and swear
they saw no gassings, etc.) are referred to as "eyewitnesses."
Therefore, because of the slanted nature to which the term us put, I
cannot readily define it in terms that apply to all cases.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 480 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:55 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 335) ---
> I have stated previously that I have reviewed the carbon copy of
the [Franke-Gricksch Resettlement Action Report]. You claim that
someone told you that it doesn't exist. It then does become your word
(or that of whoever gave you the erroneous information) against mine.
.
You keep referring to this Report (see 298 for yet another example),
so it seems to be very important to your position, however you seem
to be unable to answer a simple question about it. I'm not trying to
get into a "did not, did too" argument here. I have described in some
detail the characteristics of the carbon copy of the typescript copy
of this alleged report. In return, I asked for nothing more than a
description from you of the document you claim to have "reviewed".
Why is this such a tough request? For many of your other documentary
claims, you roll out post after post of detail. Yet about this one,
none.
---
You have stated many times that you refer to the original documents,
where possible. I guess I could make that same claim, although it
would be misleading. But when YOU say that, I (and I'll bet there are
others) take that to mean that you have seen the actual document ...
like, close enough to touch it. I do NOT take it to mean that you
have seen reproductions of the document in a book somewhere ... heck,
if that is your standard, I can honestly claim to have seen many of
the "original documents" myself.
---
This is why it is important to clear up this matter of the F-G
Report. If you have seen it in person ... this document that
supposedly does not exist ... then I and others need to know about
this. This represents a breakthrough. If, on the other hand, you have
not seen it (which includes seeing it only as a reproduction
somewhere), then we need to know that, too, because this calls into
question every other statement you have made as to the method of your
research. You owe this not only to me, but also to the many people on
this board who wouldn't be able to discuss the Holocaust story for
more than about 15 seconds without reverting to name-calling and
hysterics. You are their standard-bearer. If you have lead them to
believe that you are in an unassailable castle when in fact you are
hiding behind a house of cards, it is only fair that they be given
the chance to take up the slack before your edifice comes tumbling
down.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 481 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:56 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 336) ---
> It seems, then, that "washing the HCN from the skin" is not part of
the "rehabilitation process" even when the source of poisoning is
THROUGH the skin!
.
It seems that once again your sources have let you down. From the
DuPont manual, "Hydrogen Cyanide: Storage and Handling," we find
this:
.
Personal Safety and First Aid
...G. First Aid - Skin or Eye Contact (skin absorption) ---
1. For Eye Contact: ...
2. For Skin Contact: Wash skin to remove the cyanide while removing
all contaminated clothing, including shoes. Do not delay. Skin
absorption can occur from cyanide vapor or liquids.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 482 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:56 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 337) ---
>> 312 Raven
>> I have read of the accidental poisoning of a prisoner in a German
>> camp, who was revived and nursed back to health.
>Please cite a source for this statement.
.
Uhh, gladly. Check Pressac, page 25. Rablin, a prisoner employed in
disinfecting with Zyklon B, proves just how dangerous this gas was to
use. Rablin, only slightly exposed to the gas, was hospitalized and
took two months to recover. It is paradoxical that the Germans tried
to cure of gas poisoning a man whom, the story goes, they should have
killed with precisely that gas.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 483 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:57 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 338) ---
> From page 9049 of the court transcript:
>"THE COURT: Well, he [Leuchter] said - I realize his opinion on this
is that there were never any gassings or there were never any
exterminations carried on in this facility. As far as I'm concerned,
from what I've heard, he is not capable of giving that opinion."
> This, of course, was after Leuchter's credentials had been reviewed
by the Court.
.
Ah, but you are not telling the whole story, are you? It is true that
the Court did not admit Leuchter as an expert witness across the
board, but they did admit him for some things, didn't they? They must
have, because he testified --- mustn't he have been an expert
witness? And although the printed copy of his Report was not admitted
as such, Leuchter was allowed to verbally testify to virtually all of
its contents (the Court demanded that another witness testify about
crematoria, and that a third witness read the results of the chemical
analysis). Thus, Leuchter WAS an expert witness, and the contents of
the Leuchter Report WERE admitted as evidence.
---
By the way, you state that the court transcript is primary evidence,
and is thus better than my secondary evidence. However, my evidence
comes from Fred Leuchter himself ... a true primary source. This
makes your transcript a secondary source. By your own statement, you
have not consulted the best possible source.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 484 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:57 EST
To Termy (regarding 350) ---
> A week or so ago, a claim was made (by, Mr. Raven, I believe) that
there were 50,000 Jews remaining in Berlin at war's end.
.
I made no such statement. Can you be more clear about what you think
I said?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 485 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:57 EST
To D.Berkowitz (regarding 356) ---
> Not so well done, Dave. The rebuttal has been deleted. Strange
exercise of sysopery, IMO. Messages #138-139 which had nothing to do
with the holocaust and contained caustic and defamatory references to
Jews remain, and my rebuttal was denied. I think the sysop has
admitted his inability to measure Jewish sensibilities, and I think
he should pass over the topic to someone who can.
.
It may surprise you to learn that I also have my disagreements with
the way Graffiti edits some messages and leaves others. However, I
believe he is making the best of a tough situation, and I applaud him
for having the strength to put up with a topic with which he has no
love whatsoever, and yet doing so in as fair a manner as can be
expected. I feel fortunate to have Mr. Helton as a sysop, and given
his track record (even from my point of view), I doubt we could do
much better.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 486 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:58 EST
To Eric-M (regarding 359) ---
Regarding HCN gas and "contact time" with walls, etc.
.
As previously posted by me, once the ambient temperature drops below
78.3 degrees F, condensation begins to take place. Any porous surface
(skin, walls, clothing, wood, etc.) that comes in contact with the
condensate will absorb it to some extent. The walls of the Missouri
gas chamber are (were) steel with a sealing coat of paint over it
(modern gas chambers use epoxy). The walls of the so-called gas
chambers in Auschwitz were no so protected, so they would have
absorbed HCN condensate.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 487 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:58 EST
To Eric-M (regarding 360) ---
> When he [Raven] has expressed the idea that the Holocaust is a
propaganda vehicle used by the Zionists to further Judaic causes, he
should support such claims.
.
You are getting mixed up, here. By reference to "bloodthirsty
Zionists" was in regards to the conditions at the concentration camps
at the end of the war, it had nothing to do with a Zionist conspiracy
to promote the Holocaust. The "bloodthirsty Zionists" to which I
refer are FDR's advisors.
---
As to the claim that I said the Holocaust is a propaganda vehicle
used by the Zionists to further Judaic causes, here in Los Angeles in
the last week or so there have been 6 references to the Holocaust
(something that supposedly happened half a century ago) in connection
with demands being made by Zionist groups. If you choose not to see
this, fine. But it is off topic. Virtually all aspects concerning the
Holocaust story can be dealt with without getting into conspiracy
theories.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 488 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:59 EST
To Eric-M (regarding 361) ---
> I don't know. :-) This is what I've been told, though, by
knowledgeable chemical experts. Personally, I've never smelled HCN.
.
Here's the deal. I called DuPont and was told that there is a slight
odor to HCN. What I was thinking when I made that post was Rudolf
Hoess' Sonderbefehl (special order) of 12.Aug.1942, which came after
an accident with Zyklon B, in which he says (in part):
.
The gas being used at present contains less odorous warning agent and
is therefore especially dangerous.
---
I assumed this meant that HCN was nearly or completely odorless on
its own, but apparently there is a slight aroma. The DuPont
literature on HCN makes refer to a Sniff Test, but unfortunately that
page is missing from my copy. However, I agree with you that this is
a test best left to someone else.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 489 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:59 EST
To Carl Fink (regarding 366) ---
Gee, Carl, thanks for asking so many Long Answer questions : ->
---
> Raven, would you really like to disinfect a barracks or morgue with
hydrogen cyanide gas? A barracks, in particular, is not sealed - the
gas would escape into the environment, and contaminate any clothing
or other items in the room. It would be as big a production as
"tenting" a house is today - if the Germans could do that, with WW II
technology-plastics to make the tent from.
.
I suppose if it was my job to do so, I would. Barracks are not
sealed, but they do require disinfection because the lice do not
confine themselves to easily-disinfected locales. If you had seen the
movie "Architects of Doom" you would have seen footage of men
disinfecting a factory with Zyklon B. Part of the precautions involve
taping over (with what appeared to be paper tape and glue --- applied
with a brush) window cracks, door cracks, etc., to seal the building.
Believe it or not, there WAS life before plastic!
---
> Also, you yourself have contended that these chambers were special
delousing chambers for clothing (as opposed to a morgue or barracks).
Presumably after going to the trouble of making a special delousing
chamber, the Germans used it more often than twice a year.
.
Also presumably, because clothing is so much easier to disinfect
(just pop it into the ol' gas chamber), it could be done on a regular
basis ... say for example, you could gas the clothes of all new
arrivals. However, if there ever arose an occasion when the
infestation became acute, you would have to disinfect the barracks,
etc. Given the properties of Zyklon B, you can appreciate that this
must have been quite a procedure during the cold months.
---
> By the way, if vented HCN makes the gas chambers impossible, why
doesn't it make the delousing chambers impossible?
.
I'll go you one better and also explain why it doesn't make barracks
disinfection impossible. When Zyklon B is used to disinfect clothing
and barracks, the time allotted for the procedure is many hours. The
actual gassing can last several hours, and then the airing-out
process can last 24 hours or more, depending on temperature, etc. The
comparatively long disinfection time allows the gas to disperse
fully, so there is less chance of pockets of gas that can cause
problems. Then, the comparatively long airing-out process reduces the
possibility of accidents because the flow rate is so low. Of course,
even after extended airing out, it is still necessary to move things
around (and beat mattresses, etc.) to ensure that all the Zyklon B
has vented off.
.
By contrast, the stories about the homicidal gassings almost all say
that the people are herded in, the gas is introduced into the room,
fifteen minutes later the screaming stops, the doors to the "gas
chamber" are thrown open, and the bodies dragged out, sometimes by
workers who are smoking and eating, and have no protective clothing
or respirators!
.
This is a big difference from the manner in which Zyklon B was used
for disinfection.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 490 Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:00 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 382) ---
> 169 Raven: Please read CAT 15 TOP 7 MSG 297-302 for the answers to
your questions.
.
Why is the world did you respond to my questions in TOPic 7? Is it
because you know I don't visit TOPic 7, so you needn't fear rebuttal?
If you have something to say to me, say it here. I must say, it
certainly seems odd that when I ask you why you are dodging the
question, you post your answer somewhere remote from the discussion!
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 491 Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU at 05:34 EST
To POOH.BAH (154)
So now you are telling us that you "didn't realize the holocaust deniers [sic]
were on trial here"? It seems to me that certain people have taken it upon
themselves to act as judge/jury/executioner of those who have questioned the
holocaust. Is this schizophrenia we are witnessing? You have to admit that
you have some of us confused. Attack after attack is made upon Leuchter,
Weber, Faurisson. Their credentials and professional qualifications are
jeered at and rejected. Their findings are arrogantly dismissed. They are
labeled and libeled and smeared. And then we're told that they're "not on
trial". Incredible. Are there TWO POOH.BAHs here, doing different things, or
is there only one whose left and right hands are performing different and
opposite tasks?
You then went on to say that you agreed with the Canadian court decision to
accept Mark Weber as an expert on the holocaust. Again, I am confused. So
you are finally respecting Mr. Weber's expertise in this area of history? And
if so, and that does seem to be the case if you agree as you said you agree,
with the court decision, then how does this jive with your outrageous mud-
slinging at the Institute for Historical Review? After all, Mark Weber is an
Associate Editor of their JOURNAL OF HISTORICAL REVIEW and the editor of their
NEWSLETTER. He has also been a regular contributor to the JOURNAL over the
years since it's inception, and has presented papers at it's revisionist
conventions and spoken there.
I know that the fanatical believers in every holocaust allegation equally
fanatically hate the Institute, and paint it's members in the most lurid
colors. And yet one of it's most prominent representatives is admitted to be
an EXPERT. These intellectual backward double flip-flops are driving me up
the wall.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 492 Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU at 05:34 EST
To POOH.BAH (157)
You "own, have read and analyzed virtually every book they [the IHR] have
published or distributed that denies the holocaust in some manner or other"?
And you have "read more of the IHR material than anyone participating here"?
I find that extremely hard to believe.
Why don't you help us all out and present us with a bibliography, showing
author/title/publisher of all these books published or offered by the
Institute that you are so expert on. I am sure that many of the readers of
this message stream would be interested to know just which titles have been
available. Then, as this discussion progresses, we can test your fantastic
expert knowledge on each title's contents here and there as necessary.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 493 Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU at 05:35 EST
To AH.STEIN (164)
Are you an "expert" on the IHR too? Your absurd characterization of it was
instantly demolished when you revealed that you weren't even sure of what
"IHR" stands for. It DOES stand for 'Institute for Historical Review' and
that is exactly what it does.
To those readers who would like to hear another, and more accurate, view of
what the Institute is and what it stands for: "The Institute for Historical
Review, founded in 1978, is the world's leading organization carrying on the
proud tradition of Historical Revisionism, now a worldwide phenomenon. The
IHR is non-ideological and non-partisan. We are not interested in
rehabilitating this or that regime. We are interested only in rehabilitating
the TRUTH, or, as Dr. Harry Elmer Barnes put it - 'Bringing history into
accord with facts.'" - taken from "The Tradition of Historical Revisionism" by
Tom Marcellus (Director, IHR).
Considering that so many of the thoughtful articles published in their JOURNAL
have been from former inmates of concentration camps and from anti-Nazi
intellectuals, I would say that it is a very far cry indeed from your slur "a
group of neo-Nazis".
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 494 Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU at 05:35 EST
To A.K.QUINN (195)
So you "saw" the "gas chambers" at Dachau? I am astounded. Your statement
flies directly in the face of the fact that no holocaust historian or writer
on the holocaust, agrees with you and in fact DENIES such allegations. The
holocaust revisionists, on the other hand, have been laughing at such tall
tales for many decades, and when the holocausters came on board and agreed
with them that the stories of "gas chambers at Dachau" were absurd, both camps
were able to finally move on to the Auschwitz debating areas. Even POOH.BAH
has admitted that nobody was gassed at Dachau. Are you saying POOH.BAH is
wrong?
Are you saying that BOTH camps are wrong, and that since you "saw" these "gas
chambers", that history has to be re-written yet again? I'm not trying to
harass you on this; I think that what has happened here is that either 1) You
were TOLD that the structures you saw were "gas chambers"
and you accepted it. /and/ 2) You misidentified "de-lousing" facilities
for "gas chambers".
The former was used to de-louse clothing in order to reduce the
incidence of disease, and thereby to SAVE the lives of inmates,
while the latter were purportedly structures used to gas
millions of Jews and "others". Are you clear on the difference
between the two types of structures? /or/ 3) You visually saw crematoria
facilities and either thought or
were told that these were "gas chambers". Do you realize that
the purpose of crematoria were to destroy the bodies of human
beings that had died from ALL causes (disease, etc.)?
These errors in identification were extremely common. Such errors were
compounded by "confessions" extracted from former camp personnel who readily
"admitted" to anything and everything they were told to "confess" and "admit"
to, for fear of their lives and the lives of their families, and the
irresponsibility of the mass media, which took photos of the de-lousing and
crematoria facilities and presented the photos in world newspapers with the
caption: "gas chamber".
It really astounds me that after both the holocausters AND the revisionists
have, together, agreed that no gassings took place at Dachau, someone actually
steps forward and asserts that he "saw" the "gas chambers".
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 495 Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU at 05:36 EST
To D.FRIEDMAN14 (196)
So you accept and believe Mr. Quinn's story in which he "saw" the "gas
chambers" at Dachau? And that therefore Jews and "others" were "gassed"
there? Are you then saying that ALL the holcoaust writers and historians are
wrong on this? After all, they say that NO gassings took place at Dachau and
that stories alleging this are FALSE.
But if you still insist that the story is true, then I will say that I would
like to get in touch with you privately...I have some swamp land in Florida
that you might be interested in buying...
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 497 Thu Apr 02, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 06:08 EST
POOH.BAH...message 443
The man is talking through his hat. Corpses, fresh or otherwise, don't burn
well at all. They are mostly water and their basic design hasn't changed since
the 1940s. Any funeral director can verify that basic fact of human
physiology.
That one physical reference, which is so absolutely ridiculous, makes the
entire document suspect. It would be easier to believe that things fell
upwards in the face of massive evidence to the contrary.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 498 Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU at 06:56 EST
To D.FRIEDMAN14 (209)
So, Mr. Friedman, you agree that the Allied forces did not have "clean hands
where atrocities were concerned". THANKYOU. Pursuant to this, I have a couple
of questions for you -
1. Since the Allies are now admitted by you to have committed atrocities,
then WHY were not trials similar to the Nuremburg (and other) Tribunals held
in which American and British and French military personnel were in the dock
and punished for their crimes? Or Soviets for that matter? At Nuremberg they
tried to pin the Katyn massacres (15,000 Polish officers murdered) on the
Germans and their western counterparts were so embarrassed at the obvious
shame of it all that they forbid any further mention of Katyn. A crime is a
crime. Individual German soldiers and officials were shot or hung for
individual crimes. Why not the "good guys" for the commission of mirror-image
crimes?
2. Why can't these atrocities committed by the western (and eastern!) allies,
and the victims of these atrocities, be admitted as part and parcel of "the
holocaust"?
3. Why do you think it is, or can you explain why it is, that our
institutions of learning and our mass media have so carefully avoided
mentioning allied war crimes, while shouting almost non-stop about German
crimes (and alleged crimes). The bombings of Belgrade and Warsaw are
mentioned luridly, but Hamburg and Dresden are invariably left out. The
(unsubstantiated) tale of "six million gassed Jews" is repeated over and over
and over and over, but the 5-6,000,000 German civilians who perished at war's
end is almost NEVER mentioned. ALL of these events are part and parcel of the
World War II holocaust, wouldn't you agree? So why don't our schools and
media instruct and report accordingly?
Once again, the question pops up: WHOSE holocaust?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 499 Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU at 06:56 EST
To POOH.BAH (215)
Again, I am confused. The tone of your message to Mr. Raven in which you ask
him "where did you get that list - was it from Mark Weber?" implies that you
despise any information or data deriving from Mr. Weber. Yet in Message 154
you said that you agreed with the Canadian court's decision to accept Mr.
Weber as an expert on the holocaust, in the Zundel trial. In the one message
you express your respect for Mr. Weber's expertise, and in the other message
you so obviously sneer at that expertise.
Everybody should go back and read Message 215 and examine the tone used; then
go further back to Message 154 and check out your statement on Mr. Weber as an
expert on the holocaust. I would like to know just what exactly is going on
here.
I think you owe it to everybody who has been so closely following this
discussion, to be absolutely honest with us all on issues like this. Perhaps
an investigation should be set in motion to see if there is somebody out there
posing as POOH.BAH and falsely using your name to post these utterly
contradictory statements.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 500 Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU at 06:57 EST
To POOH.BAH (222)
Yad Vashem "does not discriminate based upon religion"? Do they discriminate
based upon any other criteria? You have clearly said that the Yad Vashem will
accept ALL researchers interested in learning more about the holocaust. Can
Mark Weber go there? Would he be welcomed and given every courtesy? After
all, the Canadian court has accepted him as an expert and you said yourself
that you agreed with that decision. Therefore, surely, he could do some
research there? Yes? No? Or how about Professor Faurisson? He has written
and researched extensively on the holocaust too. Yes? No? You DID say that
"any researcher is welcome there and can evaluate the materials".
Fred Leuchter has done research too. Can he go? I know that David Irving has
ALREADY been to Yad Vashem. But, since his visit, he has expressed doubts
about the holocaust and questioned certain aspects of it. Would he be welcome
for a return visit?
If your answer is "NO" to any of this, then a retraction would be in order,
and also an admission that perhaps the Yad Vashem is not as objective and non-
agenda-serving as you would like us to believe.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 501 Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU at 06:57 EST
To POOH.BAH (228)
Another backwards double-sideways flip-flop-flip has just been performed!
Such intellectual gymnastics are truly mind-boggling. Are the "human
lampshades", "human soap" and "mass gassings at Dachau" FACT or FICTION,
POOH.BAH? Please, please will you say so either way, and clearly and
unequivocally so that nobody will be confused anymore on these issues.
Did or did not the Nazis take Jews and make them into "soap" and/or
"lampshades"? And were or were not human beings "gassed" at the Dachau
concentration camp, or any OTHER concentration camp on German soil? Are the
accounts and stories and tales and survivors' and eyewitnesses' statements
alleging this kind of stuff FICTIONAL or FACTUAL? I think you said "yes" to
my question of "were there gassings on German soil", but maybe my eyes
deceived me.
I don't want some waffly thing like "not fictional within specific limits".
We need clarity on this, not some statement that can be wriggled out of
afterwards when things get too hot.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 502 Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU at 06:57 EST
To POOH.BAH (229)
I am glad that revisionism is not a "dirty word" with you after all. Now I
hope that we aren't going to see messages down the line in which it is re-
transformed into a "dirty word" again. I am also glad that you are in favor
of revisionism as an historical process. So what exactly are you saying then?
Are you saying that the holocaust must not admit any kind of revisionism, but
all other historical areas CAN admit revisionist research? Or are you saying
that revisionist research can only be defined as such by the so-called
"holocaust lobby"?
It would be kind of like saying, "I am in favor of truth, but I get to define
what truth IS."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 504 Thu Apr 02, 1992
D.BERKOWITZ at 07:33 EST
>Berkowitz then goes on into an assertion that the non-Jewish world >engages
in collective blame against Jews, and asserts that Boesky
>and Milken's "Jewish origins would become part of their crime."
>Nowhere in any newspaper, magazine, TV, or radio account did I see
>a word linking any charges against these two men to their Jewish
>origins.
>Well, that's not paranoia, is it?
I wrote:
> I shuddered when Boesky and Milken were indicted. Though I never
>met either of these men, I did know that their Jewish origins
>would become part of their crime.
Unlike Schulman, I did not resort to a collectivist argument as he is wont to
do. I did not assert that the non-Jewish world
collectively engages in collective blame against the Jews, I did
say that to some Boesky's and Milken's Jewish origins would become
part of the crime. We have evidence of such a tendency right here
on this board. Raven attacked Kaganovich, a thoroughly evil man,
as the Jew Kaganovich. Kaganovich's ethnic origin had nothing to
do with his crimes, but he is referenced as the Jew. And yes sadly,
the ethnic origins of Boesky and Milken were widely disseminated, and the
information used by the anti-semites for additional fodder.
This is not paranoia, it is recognition of grim reality. Mr Schulman
apparently denies that anti-semitism exists. Sad.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 505 Thu Apr 02, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 08:08 EST
GRAFFITI: I am trying to figure out why you deleted my post, yet allowed 454
SOFTSERV, the rebuttal, to remain.
463 G.Raven: "There were no systematic German programs of genocide."
Ah, finally you've answered the question as to whether you believe there was
such a thing!
498 M.RUNGU:
1.) There is no comparison between relatively isolated instances of Allied
crimes, and the Germans' consistent policy of butchery.
2.) The "Holocaust" refers to a very specific event in history: the German
genocide. The issue of war dead -- on both sides, including Americans,
Britons, Soviets, etc. -- is a separate issue.
3.) Because, in the heat of war, terrible things happen. Probably, no state
has ever fought a war without committing crimes. But the Germans' demonic
behavior shattered all precedents for evil! Thus, the special attention.
I am alarmed and disappointed by your selective attention to my questions,
M.RUNGU. I therefore restate the key question, which you neglect. HOW DID
YOU, A SELF-PROCLAIMED BABE IN THE WOODS, ACQUIRE SUCH A COMMAND OF
REVISIONISM?
D.T. Friedman
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 506 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:37 EST
462 Raven:
> The Germans not only had spark-ignition engines, they also had busses that
> ran largely on carbon monoxide (that is, there was a CO generator mounted
> to the back of the bus to create the CO needed to run the bus). Either of
> these vehicles would have been MUCH better for CO exterminations, yet no
> one has ever claimed that the Germans used these.
You are in error, Raven. Diesel engines were used for the gas chambers at the
camps that employed CO as the killing agents but it was gasoline engines
primarily that were used by the gas vans and, therefore, at Kulmhof
(Chelmno).
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 507 Thu Apr 02, 1992
TERMY at 08:38 EST
In reply to: Message 463 G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]
-> Because there were no systematic German programs of genocide...
In my Message 250:
Today I can confirm that our objective, to solve the Jewish problem
for Lithuania, has been achieved by EK 3. In Lithuania there are no
more Jews, apart from Jewish workers and their families. [total of
34,500]...I also intended to kill these Jewish workers plus their
families but came up against strong protests on the part of the civil
administration (the Reichskommissar) and the Wehrmacht and
instructions were issued that these Jews and their families were not
to be executed.
Message 343:
5. Furthermore, it was proposed to sterilize all those Jewesses who
are still fertile so that the Jewish problem would finally be solved
with the present generation.
Message 346:
1. The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against
the Jews as such. THE JEWS HAVE TO BE EXTERMINATED AND NONE OF THE
JEWS THAT WERE KILLED IS ANY GREAT LOSS. Although the accused should
have recognized that THE EXTERMINATION OF THE JEWS WAS THE DUTY OF
KOMMANDOS WHICH HAVE BEEN SET UP ESPECIALLY FOR THIS PURPOSE, he
should be excused for considering himself to have the authority to
take part in the extermination of Jewry himself. [emphasis mine]
Message 403:
The aim of Einsatzkommando 2 from the beginning was a radical solution
of the Jewish problem through the execution of all Jews.
Message 404:
...It should be obvious that one cannot solve the Polish problem by
liquidating the poles in the same way as the Jews.
Message 405:
On the other hand, in accordance with basic orders, the cleansing
operation of the Security Police had the goal of the most
comprehensive elimination possible of the Jews. Extensive executions
were thus carried out by special units in the cities and the plains.
NOTE: ALL of the above come from German wartime documents.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 508 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:38 EST
465 Raven:
> Whoa! Lemme see if I got this right. Pressac refers to several
> sources. None of them has the "right" number. So he creates a
> "divisor" that ... when applied to these "wrong" numbers ... makes
> "right" numbers? Who supplied these divisors? Why doesn't he simply
> quote one source that DOES have the "right" numbers and then stick
> with it? And if he does come up with one source with the "right"
> numbers, how does he know it is right and the others wrong? And if
> the other figures are demonstrably wrong (based on another, better,
> source), then why apply a divisor to them to make them "right"?
Before you made this statement, you quoted from my message #215...OUT OF
CONTEXT. Now, let's put it into context.
>> Anyone who today claims that they know exactly how many were cremated to
>> the precise number is the one who stands to lose credibility. It can be
>> said that from X to Y were cremated but it cannot be said with any
>> certainty that Z were cremated. Now, if you had read the book, you would
>> realize that Pressac quoted a number of official sources that claimed
>> different numbers. Therefore, because these numbers flucuated, so must
>> the divisor.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 509 Thu Apr 02, 1992
TERMY at 08:39 EST
Message 473 G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]
-> I disagree. Leuchter was looking for the presence of something. To
-> establish what it looks like when you find that something, he needed
-> to take a sample from a known exposed surface. Had he not done this,
-> ALL his samples would have come back with no trace of cyanide
-> compounds. This would not have changed the results much, but it would
-> have been virtually impossible for anyone but an expert to judge the
-> results on their own. By including a sample of a known contaminated
-> surface, Leuchter provided a basis for comparison.
You misunderstood what I said. Again, Leuchter's test was invalid,
for he took his control sample from an area that was suspected to be
contaminated, that is, the Block 3 delousing chamber. Proper
scientific method calls for the taking of a control sample which is
not suspected or known to be contaminated with the contaminant being
tested for. This sample is then used to establish a baseline of
contamination, i.e., the naturally occurring level of the contaminant
being tested for. THEN, one takes sample from areas suspected or
known to be contaminated, and tests them for the amount of
contamination. The results are then compared to the control sample
(which has established the naturally occurring level of
contamination).
I presented a scenario concerning radioactive contaminations and
Leuchter's sampling method. In order that you may refresh your
memory, the scenario is in message #242.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 510 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:39 EST
466 Raven:
> Your reading of my posts is apparently no better than your readings
> of the German documents. When I brought up the Duerrfeld reference,
> it was in parentheses, as were other of my comments on the excerpts
> from Pressac.
Apparently you are unfamiliar with the standard convention, then, of putting
your own comments in brackets []. This is used throughout the board here and
is used in most publications to designate editor's comments (as opposed to
the author's own parenthetical comments).
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 511 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:41 EST
466 Raven:
> Auschwitz lies just above the 50th parallel, or roughly as close to
> the North Pole as Winnipeg, Canada. In the summer, it may reach 25.7
> degrees (78.3 F), but unless everything is at that temperature or
> above, HCN will condense. This means that for most of the year (and
> probably much of the day, even in the summer) the "gas chambers"
> would have had to be heated. Are there any heaters in the "gas
> chambers"? Answer: No.
From the diary of SS-Dr Kremer
31 August 1942
Tropical climate, 38 degrees in the shade, dust and countless flies!
Food in the officers' mess excellent. This evening we had e.g. pickled
duck's liver for 0.40 RM, plus stuffed tomatoes, tomato salad, etc.
Water is contaminated, so we drink soda water, which is provided free of
charge (Mattoni). First inoculation against typhus feber. Photographs
for camp pass.
3 September 1942
For the first time came down with the diarrhoea with vomiting and
colic-type attacks of pain which have hit everyone here in the camp. It
cannot be the water as I have not drunk a drop, nor can it be the bread,
as those who have only eaten white bread (special diets) have also come
down with it. Most probably the reason is the unhealthy continental and
very dry tropical climate with its dust and masses of vermin (flies).
14 September 1942
For the second time had the Auschwitz illness. Temperature of 37.8.
Today had the third and last injection against typhus fever.
------------------
Gee, it seems as though, once again, you are in error.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 512 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:42 EST
468 Raven:
> No, I don't. But although that may be what you saw, that is not what
> occurred. Perhaps you'd better look at it again from an objective
> point of view. I called Mr. Leuchter to verify that his handling of
> the samples was correct. Not only did he assure me that it was, he
> further stated that 1) if it had not been correct his testimony would
> not have been accepted at the Zuendel trial, and 2) he received
> comments from other engineers that he went overboard in the amount of
> care he took in handling the samples.
It sounds as though you have NOT seen the video and are depending solely upon
the word of the man who used a sample from a de-lousing chamber as his
"control." Watch the video. The collection method was as I described it -
baggies not immediately labelled, some samples into his shirt pocket, etc.
BTW, next time you talk to Leuchter, ask him to name just one engineer who
believes he "went overboard in the amount of care he took in handling the
samples."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 513 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:42 EST
470 Raven:
> Ahh, so when these "scholarly circles" disagree with each other, I
> should just ignore the discrepancies and take the Holocaust story on
> faith? This does make things easier ... especially since Hilberg now
> says "no Fuehrer order", as he used to. I guess what you are saying
> is that the key to studying the Holocaust story is to first believe
> in it wholeheartedly, and then discard anything that does not support
> that blind faith.
Here you go again with you "no debate means it didn't happen"/"debate means
it didn't happen" line of reasoning. It didn't work before and it won't work
now.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 514 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:43 EST
470 Raven:
>> I'm just wondering, however, why you did not include the fact that
>> Missouri has executed no one during Armontrout's tenure there as
>> warden? You'll find that on page 353 of Lenski's book.
.
> You should complain to someone; you received a damaged copy of
> Lenski's book. Let me show you what you are missing:
---
> "... Though Missouri has executed no one during Armontrout's tenure,
> he has witnessed two gassings in other states, and helped with one.*"
.
> "* At three minutes past midnight on January 6, 1989, Bill Armontrout
> presided over his first execution, and Missouri's first since 1965.
> It was accomplished, however, by means of a lethal injection."
You missed the point, Raven. Next time I won't be so subtle. Armontrout
describes on page 354 the Missouri gas chamber and its operations. He
includes in this description such things as the guards vacating their
watchtower positions when the gas is vented. However, Armontrout has never
been at the Missouri prison when the gas chamber was used.
BTW, thank you for bringing up the footnote. Leuchter testified (in his
futile attempt to qualify as an expert witness) that he had designed the new
gas chamber at Missouri. That was in the 1988 Zuendel trial and yet, in 1989
(one year later), the execution in Missouri was performed by lethal
injection. Hmmm.....
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 515 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:43 EST
472 Raven:
> Correction: it has been variously reported that there was a "gas
> chamber" at Dachau that was never used, but I could make a similar
> statement about the spare bedroom in my house. Your statement about a
> "gas chamber" at Dachau is therefore misleading.
Oh, I didn't realize that your spare bedroom had "17 phony shower heads"
which is what your buddy Leuchter found at the Dachau gas chamber.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 516 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:44 EST
473 Raven:
> I disagree. Leuchter was looking for the presence of something. To
> establish what it looks like when you find that something, he needed
> to take a sample from a known exposed surface. Had he not done this,
> ALL his samples would have come back with no trace of cyanide
> compounds. This would not have changed the results much, but it would
> have been virtually impossible for anyone but an expert to judge the
> results on their own. By including a sample of a known contaminated
> surface, Leuchter provided a basis for comparison.
You once again misunderstand, Raven. There is no disagreement that samples
from the de-lousing chamber should have been collected. The problem is that
these are not "control" samples as Leuchter maintains. Termy was correct in
his assessment of what is needed for control samples.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 517 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:44 EST
476 Raven:
> I'll ask it before and I'll ask it again: what proof would be
> considered adequate to establish that something did NOT happen? Once
> you figure out the answer to this question, you will understand why
> the burden of proof is on the exterminationists, not the
> revisionists.
How about a reasonable explanation as to why the evidence of the mass
extermination program (which employs word such as "liquidation," "executed,"
etc.) does NOT indicate such an extermination program.
So far, you have failed to address the documentation that has been presented.
That would be a good start, wouldn't it?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 518 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:45 EST
476 Raven:
> I have described in some detail the characteristics of the carbon copy of
> the typescript copy of this alleged report. In return, I asked for nothing
> more than a description from you of the document you claim to have
> "reviewed".
It is a carbon copy of the original (as I have previously stated). It can be
found in the document center in Berlin. The carbon copy I reviewed has none
of the errors that you have previously mentioned (which I found amazing since
you cited no source for those errors and, yet, you have admitted to not
knowing German....how did you do that?).
What further description would you like?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 519 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:45 EST
481 Raven:
> It seems that once again your sources have let you down. From the
> DuPont manual, "Hydrogen Cyanide: Storage and Handling," we find
> this:
This quotation is not relevant to the discussion. When discussing a
particular event that occurred at a particular time, the relevant documents
are the contemporary ones from which I quoted. Those instructions do not
include the washing of skin and, therefore, that wouldn't have been done or
believed to have been necessary during the Holocaust.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 520 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:46 EST
482 Raven:
> Uhh, gladly. Check Pressac, page 25. Rablin, a prisoner employed in
> disinfecting with Zyklon B, proves just how dangerous this gas was to
> use. Rablin, only slightly exposed to the gas, was hospitalized and
> took two months to recover. It is paradoxical that the Germans tried
> to cure of gas poisoning a man whom, the story goes, they should have
> killed with precisely that gas.
Here is an interesting technique of the Holocaust Deniers. They attempt to
discredit "eyewitness" testimony when it is inconvenient for them but accept
it when they think it might suit their purposes. However, even in this case,
this eyewitness account does not state what Raven has led us to believe it
does.
"Once I was slightly gassed because the mask I was wearing was not fully gas-
tight. I felt nothing at the time but two hours afterward I had a bad
headache, a pain in the meninges and a burning pain in the lungs. At first I
did not go to the KB [hospital] but went out of the block into the birch
alley to breath deeply while doing knee bends. The headache went away fairly
quickly, but when I coughed a little blood came up. Doctor Wasilewski
diagnosed inflammation and dehydration of the throat. After being
hospitalized, I was cured in two month...."
The diagnosis was NOT gas poisoning. There is no evidence that Rablin even
told the doctor what caused the situation....or if indeed the gas did cause
this particular condition.
It should also be mentioned that Rablin was working with Zyklon-B in the de-
lousing chamber where the concentration of the HCN is greater increased over
that of the gas chambers for humans.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 521 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:47 EST
483 Raven:
> Ah, but you are not telling the whole story, are you? It is true that
> the Court did not admit Leuchter as an expert witness across the
> board, but they did admit him for some things, didn't they? They must
> have, because he testified --- mustn't he have been an expert
> witness?
No, he didn't need to be qualified as an expert witness to testify. After
all, he did make a trip to Auschwitz and, like anyone who has previously done
so, can indeed testify as to what he saw and did there. In fact, that is
exactly what the Court ruled on page 9030:
"He [Leuchter] can give evidence in the witness box as to what he did within
the proper question and answer process"
Then on page 9052:
COURT: He hasn't any expertise.
And later on that same page:
MR. PEARSON [prosecutor]: Now, how someone who purports to be an
expert....[interrupted by the Judge]
COURT: Well, I'm not permitting that, I'm not permitting that.
So, Leuchter was allowed to testify as to what he saw and did but was not
permitted to make an "expert opinion."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 522 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:47 EST
483 Raven:
> By the way, you state that the court transcript is primary evidence,
> and is thus better than my secondary evidence. However, my evidence
> comes from Fred Leuchter himself ... a true primary source. This
> makes your transcript a secondary source. By your own statement, you
> have not consulted the best possible source.
This is really funny! Thank you for giving me such a good laugh!
Leuchter was an "eyewitness" to the proceedings which were transcribed word
for word. Yet you somehow now want us to discard that transcription and
prefer to base your conclusions on the MEMORY of Leuchter?
Cut it out....my sides are hurting!!!!
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 523 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:48 EST
486 Raven:
> The walls of the Missouri gas chamber are (were) steel with a sealing coat
> of paint over it (modern gas chambers use epoxy).
It's true that the Auschwitz gas chambers were not steel but they were
painted. It cannot be determined, however, exactly WHEN they were painted.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 524 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:49 EST
489 Raven:
> I'll go you one better and also explain why it doesn't make barracks
> disinfection impossible. When Zyklon B is used to disinfect clothing
> and barracks, the time allotted for the procedure is many hours. The
> actual gassing can last several hours, and then the airing-out
> process can last 24 hours or more, depending on temperature, etc. The
> comparatively long disinfection time allows the gas to disperse
> fully, so there is less chance of pockets of gas that can cause
> problems. Then, the comparatively long airing-out process reduces the
> possibility of accidents because the flow rate is so low. Of course,
> even after extended airing out, it is still necessary to move things
> around (and beat mattresses, etc.) to ensure that all the Zyklon B
> has vented off.
Please cite your sources for this. I think I should warn you, however, that
you have already used one source to "prove" something and that source
contradicts the above.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 525 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:49 EST
489 Raven:
> By contrast, the stories about the homicidal gassings almost all say
> that the people are herded in, the gas is introduced into the room,
> fifteen minutes later the screaming stops, the doors to the "gas
> chamber" are thrown open, and the bodies dragged out, sometimes by
> workers who are smoking and eating, and have no protective clothing
> or respirators!
You forgot one very important step in your review of most accounts - the
ventilation system was turned on! That should be placed in the above between
"the screaming stops" and "the doors to the 'gas chamber' are thrown open."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 526 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:50 EST
490 Raven:
> To Pooh.bah (regarding 382) ---
>> 169 Raven: Please read CAT 15 TOP 7 MSG 297-302 for the answers to
>> your questions.
.
> Why is the world did you respond to my questions in TOPic 7? Is it
> because you know I don't visit TOPic 7, so you needn't fear rebuttal?
> If you have something to say to me, say it here. I must say, it
> certainly seems odd that when I ask you why you are dodging the
> question, you post your answer somewhere remote from the discussion!
First, _I_ didn't respond to you in TOPic 7. However, those messages which
were written by others, do answer your question and I see no reason to
transfer them here when it is so easy for you to read them there.
Second, I have no way of knowing which TOPics you do and do not read.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 527 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:50 EST
491 Rungu:
> So now you are telling us that you "didn't realize the holocaust deniers
> [sic] were on trial here"? It seems to me that certain people have taken
> it upon themselves to act as judge/jury/executioner of those who have
> questioned the holocaust.
BTW, Rungu, before you can use the "[sic]" you must have quoted the person
exactly without making any changes. You have not done that so your use of
"[sic]" becomes comical instead of informing.
Now, you claim that the Holocaust Deniers ARE on trial here. I see no
executioners and the only judgements I see being made are those that are made
in the course of any controversial discussion.
> You have to admit that you have some of us confused. Attack after attack
> is made upon Leuchter, Weber, Faurisson. Their credentials and
> professional qualifications are jeered at and rejected. Their findings
> are arrogantly dismissed. They are labeled and libeled and smeared. And
> then we're told that they're "not on trial". Incredible. Are there TWO
> POOH.BAHs here, doing different things, or is there only one whose left
> and right hands are performing different and opposite tasks?
Everyone here has seen me repeatedly request you to cite just a single
example where I have attacked Leuchter, Weber or Faurisson; where I have
jeered at and rejected their credentials; where I have arrogantly dismissed
them; where I have labeled and libeled and smeared them. The fact that you
continue to make these unsubstantiated claims without citing the messages is
destroying the little shred of credibility that remains for you.
Cite the messages or admit that you are in error. Remember "Keine Antwort ist
auch eine Antwort." Therefore, if you do not answer with citations, I will
have to accept that as an answer and your admission that no citations are
possible. At that time, I will be free to repeatedly point out your
prevarication.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 528 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:51 EST
491 Rungu:
> You then went on to say that you agreed with the Canadian court decision
> to accept Mark Weber as an expert on the holocaust. Again, I am confused.
> So you are finally respecting Mr. Weber's expertise in this area of
> history? And if so, and that does seem to be the case if you agree as you
> said you agree, with the court decision, then how does this jive with your
> outrageous mud-slinging at the Institute for Historical Review?
First, you need to cite where I have exercised "outrageous mud-slinging at
the" IHR. You have not done so up til now and, if you do not do so, I will
have to conclude that your silence is your admission of error and will have
to, in the future, repeatedly point out your prevarication whenever it
occurs.
Now, there is a logical fallacy called "guilt by association." It is also a
logical fallacy, though, to "redeem by association."
As I have pointed out before, even though I respect Weber's expertise, I do
not agree with his conclusions.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 529 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:52 EST
492 Rungu:
> You "own, have read and analyzed virtually every book they [the IHR] have
> published or distributed that denies the holocaust in some manner or
> other"? And you have "read more of the IHR material than anyone
> participating here"? I find that extremely hard to believe.
> Why don't you help us all out and present us with a bibliography, showing
> author/title/publisher of all these books published or offered by the
>Institute that you are so expert on.
Well, let's see, so far even you have acknowledged that I must have Smith's
book because of my quotations from it. I must also know Staeglich's book
since I was able to immediately spot Raven's attempt at plagiarism from it.
I must have the Leuchter Report and Ingrid Weckert's book since I've quoted
from both of them. And, let us not forget the Lenski book on Zuendel's trial.
Yes, put that on the list - it must be put on the list.
That should give you a good start....you will have to discover the rest in
the same manner that these have come out - through discussion. I'm not in the
habit of advertising for the IHR and their publications like you are.
Therefore, I will not post the entire list of my Holocaust Denial books nor
will I cite author/title/publisher.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 530 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:52 EST
494 Rungu:
> To A.K.QUINN (195)
> So you "saw" the "gas chambers" at Dachau? I am astounded. Your
> statement flies directly in the face of the fact that no holocaust
> historian or writer on the holocaust, agrees with you and in fact DENIES
> such allegations. ... Even POOH.BAH has admitted that nobody was gassed at
> Dachau. Are you saying POOH.BAH is wrong?
Excuse me but you are mixing apples and oranges here. Kevin stated that he
saw two gas chambers. I agreed that there were two gas chambers at Dachau. I
have stated that no gassings of humans took place at Dachau but, since Kevin
never claimed that there had been gassings there, there is no disagreement.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 531 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 08:54 EST
497 Hans-Peter:
> The man is talking through his hat. Corpses, fresh or otherwise, don't
> burn well at all. They are mostly water and their basic design hasn't
> changed since the 1940s.
Here you are comparing apples and oranges. You speak of the water content of
normal human bodies and make the false assumption that this is relevant. It
isn't.
I'm sure that everyone here has seen photographs of the surviving inmates and
the corpses. I'm equally sure that everyone here has seen photographs of the
starving children in the Third World. Does anyone notice a vast difference
between the two? The latter have extended bellies and the former do not!
The lack of extended bellies is a clear indication of dehydration. Therefore,
these corpses did NOT have the same water content as those under normal
conditions.
Second, it is required by law throughout the US that every body must be
embalmed....even if that body is going to be cremated. Needless to say, the
bodies to which F-G was observing had not be embalmed which does alter the
burning process.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 532 Thu Apr 02, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton] at 16:27 EST
[8 messages deleted. Please refrain from name-calling and personal attacks,
and please be careful to support your claims against one group or the other
with some factual citation or evidence, given the delicate nature of the
subject matter. Thanks. -Ric/PF*NPC]
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 534 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:15 EST
499 Rungu:
> Again, I am confused. The tone of your message to Mr. Raven in which you
> ask him "where did you get that list - was it from Mark Weber?" implies
> that you despise any information or data deriving from Mr. Weber.
Your inference is incorrect. I was asking for the source of the list. I
suggested that Mark Weber might have prepared it. If he had, he should get
credit for it. I thought that Mark Weber might have been involved in the
preparation of the list for the reason that I respect him enough to believe
that he would have read the Pressac book. Since Raven had already admitted
that he had never read the book, it didn't seem reasonable that he would have
prepared the list.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 535 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:16 EST
500 Rungu:
> Yad Vashem "does not discriminate based upon religion"? Do they
> discriminate based upon any other criteria? You have clearly said that
> the Yad Vashem will accept ALL researchers interested in learning more
> about the holocaust. Can Mark Weber go there? Would he be welcomed and
> given every courtesy?
No, they do not discriminate based upon any criteria other than one cannot
frivolously just want to examine a document for the heck of it. The
individual must have a reason and the usual reason is research into some
aspect of the Holocaust.
Yes, Mark Weber can go there and he will be afforded the same welcome and
courtesy that I receive. That means that he will have to present his research
proposal and a list of the documents that he wishes to review. The archives
staff (as he well knows) is not there to search the documents - they are
there to retrieve documents. Mark Weber will not be allowed into the vault
where documents are kept....but then only the archivists are permitted there.
There are requirements as to the proper procedure for handling the original
documents, etc. (which is true of any archives) and these will have to be
followed by anyone doing research there.
As far as the "welcome" part of the question, many of the archivists and the
staff there are Sabras. Therefore, he will receive the typical Sabra welcome.
The same is true of Faurisson, Leuchter, Staeglich, Weckert (who has also
been to Yad Vashem) or any of the other Holocaust Deniers.
Now, let me ask you a question: If I wanted to go to an annual IHR
convention, would I be allowed to attend? Would I be welcomed and extended
every courtesy?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 536 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:17 EST
501 Rungu:
> Another backwards double-sideways flip-flop-flip has just been performed!
> Such intellectual gymnastics are truly mind-boggling. Are the "human
> lampshades", "human soap" and "mass gassings at Dachau" FACT or FICTION,
> POOH.BAH? Please, please will you say so either way, and clearly and
> unequivocally so that nobody will be confused anymore on these issues.
Since I have repeatedly asked you to cite a single message in which I
declared the lampshades and soap to be "myths" or "fiction" and you have not
done so, all participants here are left knowning that you have been unable to
do so. In fact, I have never stated my opinions on the lampshades and soap
even though you have repeatedly and falsely claimed that I have.
As I declared when I u/l'ed the documentation, I will leave it to everyone to
review it and arrive at their own conclusions. I have my own conclusions
based upon that documentation but, as I have already stated, based upon
requests that I received in e-mail, I will refrain from discussing the matter
in public. Those requests were based upon sensitivities.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 537 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:18 EST
501 Rungu:
> I think you said "yes" to my question of "were there gassings on German
> soil", but maybe my eyes deceived me.
Yes, there were gassings on German soil. This has been clearly demonstrated
through the documentation of the euthanasia program. No, there were no
"extermination camps" on German soil.
These are not mutually exclusive.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 538 Thu Apr 02, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton] at 18:32 EST
NOTE: I have directed further discussion spurred by Neil's messages to the
Religion & Ethics RT on GEnie page 390. The Public Forum RT is not equiped to
handle delicate matters of a religious nature, and the thread does not
directly address the Holocaust. PLEASE direct fiurther discussion of this
matter to that RT. Thank you. -Ric/PF*NPC
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 540 Thu Apr 02, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton] at 19:02 EST
I apologize for not keeping a much tighter reign on this topic, and for
allowing off-topic threads to go on. I realize that we could be here forever
haggling over what to delete and what not to delete.....
Therefore, I am blowing the whistle here. =TWEEEEET=
FROM NOW ON, all messages that are off-topic or irrelevant to the primary
discussion of the Holocaust, or do not tie whatever point is being made back
to that discussion if it isn't clear, or can even remotely be perceived as a
personal attack against any other forum member, or make anti-Semitic
statements, or make broad, sweeping statements about conspiracies without
substantiating evidence, cites or proofs, WILL BE DELETED. I am being forced
to forego the leeway I use in most all of my other topics and Categories
because of the nature of this discussion, the delicacy and sensitiveness of
the subject matter, and the anger with which I am confronted in trying to
moderate this topic.
I have been called every name in the book in private email, and I do not feel
that the Public Forum is equipped to handle much of the tangential discussions
that revolve around the Holocaust, Jewishness, and age-old religious conflict.
I must insist that those sorts of discussions be moved to the appropriate
RoundTable: Religion & Ethics, on GEnie page 390.
I NEED YOUR HELP! I want to work with you and do the right thing in this
topic. We are balancing open speech issues with offensiveness and bigotry,
and it is very difficult. I want to be perfectly even-handed and fair.
Please, before you flame me all over the RT, drop me an email. I don't have a
"hidden agenda" and I don't administer the forum from a biased perspective. I
am here to facilitate YOUR discussion -- this is my JOB. If you want to add
your perspective to what is happening in private email to me, please do so!
(Also be aware that I am not online 24 hours a day, but I do try to check in
at least twice a day.)
Now, please, let's get on with discussing the topic as stated: the facts
surrounding the Holocaust.
-Ric/PF*NPC
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 541 Thu Apr 02, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton] at 19:44 EST
[8 messages deleted for being off topic or personal attacks.]
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 542 Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:48 EST
Ric: I would like you to take note of the fact that Rungu has repeatedly
attributed remarks to me which I have not made. After repeatedly requesting
that he either admit his error or cite a single message in which I have made
such statements, he has done neither....AND he has continued to post these
unsubstantiated accussations. I, therefore, request a modicum of leniency in
that, if Rungu persists beyond this point (and I have warned him in repeated
messages to this very point), I will be pointing out that he is lying.
This is a situation which has been going on for a week. It is not new and I
feel that I have given Rungu ample opportunity and warning.
Is this not sufficient or must I allow myself to be slandered, have my words
twisted and words put in my mouth repeatedly? BTW, this is one of the
propaganda tools that was used by Goebbels and he discusses it extensively in
his diary.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 543 Thu Apr 02, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton] at 20:01 EST
I am going to try to enforce that every claim made be substantiated with some
reference or other. If any forum member continually quotes you out of context,
such that you feel such quoting can be equated with defamation, please send me
email and explain the situation. I will delete the offending messages.
Really, this has GOT to stop somewhere, and the benefit of the doubt WRT free
speech that I have been holding so high is being sorely tested.
IF YOU QUOTE SOMEONE, PLEASE MAKE SURE YOUR QUOTE IS IN CONTEXT. This topic is
of necessity being held to a higher standard that any other in the RoundTable.
-Ric/PF*NPC
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 544 Thu Apr 02, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 20:21 EST
POOH.BAH...message 511
Upper Silesia a tropical environment???? You can't be serious POOH.BAH! North
Dakota gets hot in the summer too, but it is hardly tropical. We sometimes get
temperatures in the mid thirties (Celsius) in Toronto, but I would hardly
describe the environment as tropical.
Take a physical atlas, find Upper Silesia, and it will give you the rainfall
and average yearly temperature data. You will find that it does not differ
that much from Leipzig, Dresden, Breslau or numerous other locations which are
only a few hundred kilometres away, and which are definitely not tropical.
I have no idea what Dr. Kremer was drinking when he wrote that, but if ever
there was a whiskey-inspired notion, that has to be it.
message 531
The only thing that would burn of itself on a corpse is the fat content,
layered on the surface. As you point out, these had none or little fat. The
statement talks about "fresh" corpses. This implies to me that the person had
been alive shortly before. If they were alive, even if dehydrated, they must
still have been at least 85% to 90% water since otherwise life would be
impossible. If they were dehydrated to the same extent that an Egyptian mummy
is dehydrated then they might burn passably well, but then one could hardly
talk about a "fresh" corpse.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 545 Thu Apr 02, 1992
D.BERKOWITZ at 20:41 EST
Splendid.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 546 Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU at 22:21 EST
To POOH.BAH (230)
Everybody pay attention now... I hereby admit my error when I stated that
POOH used Rudolf Hoess (Commandant of Auschwitz) as a source to back up the
extermination thesis. I went back to all the messages in both Topics and the
person that tried to use this fraudulent and false document was D.KAUFMANN1 in
Message no. 94 of Topic 4. He gave the German text and then provided us with
a translation in the hope that by reading the text we would be convinced of an
extermination policy. I did a text search under 'Hoess' and also 'Hoss' (the
latter spelling sometimes used in error for the correct former) and unless
Hoess is referred to under some other spelling by POOH, she did not try to use
him as a source. My humble apologies to POOH, who is let off the hook THIS
time. I mistook D.KAUFMANN1's reference for POOH's. I am not perfect as
certain others pretend to be, and, unlike those certain others, do try to
admit to my mistakes when they occur.
But I STILL have yet to see POOH.BAH come right out and join with me in
denouncing and condemning this spurious abuse of history in which Hoess' name
is proferred as "proof" of an extermination thesis. Can POOH.BAH not denounce
the various exterminationist writers who have used Hoess in this manner? I
would also like to see POOH's comments on WHY the fraudulent and contradictory
Hoess statements were forced by his interrogators; it would seem that a
deliberate effort was being made at war's end to manufacture fraudulent
statements and "confessions" in order to create an "extermination" myth. In
our study of the holocaust, one of the most important areas that revisionist
historians have opened up is this phenomenon of deliberate exterminationist
falsification of history. Once the spurious documents have been laid to rest,
we still need to have a close look at the fabricators of such rubbish and
their motivations and purposes.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 547 Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU at 22:21 EST
To POOH.BAH (232)
Thankyou for your statement that you "have much respect for Mark Weber" of the
Institute for Historical Review, even though you do not agree with him. That
sounds fair enough. His credentials and qualifications and background are
very much in order. He now is a full-time staffer of the Institute and the
Associate Editor of it's JOURNAL OF HISTORICAL REVIEW as well as editor of
it's NEWSLETTER. I think that his involvement with the IHR is therefore much
more than an "association" (implying some very tenuous link). It is precisely
because individuals of the calibre of Mr. Weber actually make up the
Institute's staff and Advisory Board membership, that famous authors like
David Irving and John Toland have worked closely with it and presented papers
and spoken at it's gatherings. In an earlier message, I detailed his training
and paper trail for those who rightly or wrongly regard such as essential.
I think that in future references to him, you should consider being a little
more careful in how you express yourself, because the clear impression is
generated of sneers and jeers whenever his name crops up.
I think the smears and mud-slinging at the Institute should stop. To express
disagreement with it's findings and published material is acceptable, but the
constant "neo-Nazi" and "anti-semitic" slurs are out of place. If I had a
scanner I would scan in the long list of Ph.D.s and Professors who make up
it's Editorial Advisory Committee from all over the world. I doubt if any of
them would be surprised at the "neo-nazi" and "anti-semite" slurs against
them, since they know that such mud-slinging is par for the course when one
questions ANYTHING about the holocaust, but they would ALL deny such slanders.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 548 Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU at 22:22 EST
To POOH.BAH (233)
You said "both you and Raven have made this statement that the holocaust is
the one single area of history which is the most rife with historical error
but thus far neither of you have offered anything to substantiate this." Are
you serious? What do you think our discussion of the Hoess and Gerstein
memoirs/confessions constitutes? You admit yourself that these documents are
unreliable and full of errors. These very documents have been, and still
sometimes are (see D.KAUFMANN1's Message 94 of the archived Topic 4 as an
example), proffered as "evidence" for the extermination thesis. We still see
eyewitness' and survivors' claims about human soap, lampshades, and gassings
in camps on German soil (by way of another example, check our Mr. Quinn's
messages about the "gas chambers" at Dachau). These are the "rife historical
errors" that holocaust revisionists have, in their (unpopular) research,
uncovered and exposed for the world to see as historical fabrications. We
have been offering these juicy tidbits for all to see in message after
message.
It is true that other historical events and other historical periods have
misconceptions, errors, fraud and falsifications. Historical revisionists
have looked at and are still looking at these events and the claims made about
them in order to "bring history into accord with facts". But what makes the
holocaust unique in this regard is that it has become virtually a dogma, and
to criticise or look too closely at this dogma means the "punishment" that
Professor Faurisson of France has suffered, or Dr. Wilhelm Staglich of
Germany, or Mr. Zundel of Canada, or the Institute for Historical Review in
our country (the fire bombing, the frivolous court actions against it). This
makes it all the more important to resist the intimidation and terrorism
directed against holocaust revisionism and to get the job done (and it is
BEING done by courageous men and women in spite of the attacks, the bombings,
the being dragged into court, etc.). BTW, I am STILL awaiting a clear
condemnation from you of those who perpetrate such attacks and intimidation
against revisionists. In fact, you haven't even admitted that such things
even happen.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 549 Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU at 22:22 EST
To POOH.BAH (235)
I will say again that there is much on this subject, the holocaust, that I
still need to read and learn. And my commitment is to see ALL sides to it,
not JUST the holocaust dogma's version, i.e. the establishment version shoved
on us by the "court historians" who seem to be more interested in their
careers than they are in historial truth. I have read Anne Frank's Diary, and
recently learned that it was written by somebody else AFTER the war. I have
read 'Commandant of Auschwitz' "by" Hoess, but later learned that it was
extracted from and/or fed to him by his captors, first the British
interrogators at Hamburg, and then the Communist Polish jailors afterwards.
This is precisely the kind of fabrication of history that has me interested in
what the holocaust revisionists have to say. There is a great deal of
revisionist material that I have not read yet, but so far, I can say with
absolute confidence that the revisionist approach is vastly more scholarly and
objective than anything I have yet seen in any library's holocaust section.
I have never presented myself as a "scholar" who NEVER makes mistakes. Do you
know of somebody who pretends to such omniscience, POOH.BAH?
But I have been reading both sides to it, and when I see lies and myths and
contradictions, I find it useful to point them out to our readers, in this
discussion. That is not the same as pretending to "expert" status.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 550 Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU at 22:23 EST
To POOH.BAH (239)
Your "total agreement" with Hans-Peter on the issue of Allied war crimes is
refreshing. Now let's move along to the next step on this.
Can you not join me in condemning the fact that GERMAN war-criminals (or
sometimes or often alleged war-criminals) have been put to death for the
commission or alleged commission of war crimes and atrocities, but no war
crimes trials on the Nuremberg (or any other) model have been held to punish
ALLIED war criminals?
And how about the media? Wouldn't you agree with me that the mass media has
been extremely irresponsible in that it has rarely, if ever, made mention, in
any form, of the commission of ALLIED war crimes, but, rather, in it's
presentation of World War II crimes, dwells almost exclusively on GERMAN
commissions?
The point is that World War II was the holocaust. Jewish people have co-opted
the entire event and present it almost entirely from their own perspective, as
a result of which "the holocaust" is now defined and accepted as something
that only happened to Jewish people. I think this is wrong and immoral, and
if your approach to this is honest and straightforward, you will join me in
condemning and rejecting it. We are waiting.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 553 Thu Apr 02, 1992
TERMY at 22:44 EST
My apologies Mr. Raven: as so often happens, I got you and Mr/Ms Rungu
confused. It was Mr/Ms Rungu who asserted "Berlin alone had some 50,000 Jews
living there [at war's end]..." in Message # 699, topic 4.
Mr/Ms Rungu, please supply a source for this assertion.
Mr. Raven, do you wish to comment upon the number of Jews living in Berlin at
war's end?
Termy
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 555 Thu Apr 02, 1992
TERMY at 22:53 EST
FOR THE RECORD: All the documents I've entered have been hand-typed and
contain information which refutes or aids in refuting assertions made by
either Mr. Raven, Mr/Ms Rungu, or both.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 556 Thu Apr 02, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 22:54 EST
M.RUNGU, you still haven't answered numerous questions.
Keine Antwort ist auch eine Antwort.
Message 328 From: POOH.BAH
>Rungu: In reviewing the messages from TOPic 4, I noticed that there
>were a number of questions that you have left unanswered. Perhaps
>you can take a moment now and answer them for me.
>
>FROM #163:
>
>148 Rungu: What, in your opinion, should be the credentials for an
>"expert" in gas chambers?
>
>FROM #247:
>
>> Secondly, the Einsatsgruppen operations in and of themselves have always
>> been suspicious. Orders may have been issued, but they were not always
>> carried out, in spite of the reports coming in from the actual units in
>> the field supposedly carrying out those orders. Often it was found that
>> the planned operations were impractical or even downright impossible, and
>> even sometimes FALSE reports were sent in with fabricated figures of
>> fatalities amongst the targets.
>
>Excuse me, do you know this from personal experience or could you
>cite some sources for these strange claims?
>
>FROM #611:
>
>Actually, because of the contradictory news reports, Ernst Zundel
>(someone from your camp, you know) called Irving to inquire about
>his (Irving's) position. Zundel isn't even sure where Irving stands
>on the issue. He stated that Irving "sort of" gave an explanation.
>Have you spoken to Irving and are, perhaps, better able to give us
>some insight into this?
>
>FROM #714:
>
>> But this is typical as regards "exterminationist" presententation
>> of documents. First, they will claim that there are "tons" of
>> such documents; but when pressed to produce them, they only come
>> up with a relatively small number, ALL of which are highly
>> questionable or irrelevant; when this emerges, they will then
>> shift gears and try to claim that the Germans "destroyed
>> everything" to hide their "crimes", or sometimes even talk about
>> the Germans using some kind of special code language, etc. etc.
>
>Please make your case against anyone who is posting here that the
>above is based in reality.
>
>FROM #715:
>
>I like the way you are now qualifying the gassings....are you
>implying that there were gassings but not in "mass"? If so, please
>define "mass" for us.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 559 Thu Apr 02, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 23:09 EST
Raven, your 462 - I haven't done any inorganic chemistry in a while, but can
you document your claim that the Germans used CO as a fuel for engines? This
strikes me as insane - the energy release is very low, and making CO wastes
lots of energy for no reason.
Are you perhaps referring to a process involving the reaction of carbon and
water to produce hydrogen and CO?
Raven, your 483:
>> By the way, you state that the court transcript is primary
>>evidence, and is thus better than my secondary evidence. However,
>>my evidence comes from Fred Leuchter himself ... a true primary
>>source. This makes your transcript a secondary source. By your
>>own statement, you have not consulted the best possible source.
Come on, Raven - there are cases, like this one, in which MORE THAN ONE
primary source exists. Actually, by your own rules, Leuchter's testimony is
"eyewitness testimony" and thus suspect.
Raven, your 491: admitting that Weber is an expert is not admitting that he
is correct. Linus Pauling is perhaps the greatest living expert in
biochemistry - and is wrong about vitamin C, according to almost every other
biochemist. Einstein was wrong about the expanding universe, as he
acknowledged later.
I won't see your answer for a while - I'm offline until Monday.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 560 Thu Apr 02, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 23:22 EST
>>I have read Anne Frank's Diary, [sic] and recently learned that it
>>was written by somebody else AFTER the war.
No it wasn't, RUNGU, although that accusation was made. As I recall, her
father did edit her diaries a bit, but she did in fact write them.
Carl Fink
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 561 Fri Apr 03, 1992
J.WEISBERGE1 [Jon W.] at 00:02 EST
Pooh.Bah 387:
It was my impression that Shoah deniers (after some consideration, I agree
that describing these folks as "revisionists" does violence to the meaning of
that term as applied to the study of history) are no less marginal in Germany
than elsewhere. The significance of that is, of course, that the Germans
presumably would have the most to gain if the deniers were correct, and yet
they seem to have repudiated the "no Holocaust" hoax as much as anyone else.
Rungu 392:
It is indeed curious that while you are willing to engage in endless demands
for documentation of each and every statement about the extermination of Jews,
you are content to merely ASSERT that "My statements about the Soviet
NKVD...are valid, and I stand by them."
This is not the first time you have taken such a sharply differentiated
approach to issues; some time ago, I wrote to you the following:
"In #689 you suggest that we cannot properly evaluate historical
events until "at least 50 years" have passed, and suggest that this
applies to the case of the Holocaust. You do not produce evidence
to prove that it didn't happen, but demand that evidence be produced
that it did. On the other hand, in the case of contemporaneous
events elsewhere - most notably in the Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia,
etc., you reverse this position, make sweeping assertions about the
"massacre of tens of millions," and then demand that anyone who
disagrees produce proof that it didn't happen.
Please explain the methodological discrepancy."
I invite you again to justify the flexibility of your standards of proof.
Pooh.Bah 440:
An interesting historical side note: Walter Rauff escaped from the Allies and
made his way, ultimately, to Chile, where he became a "security advisor" to
the military dictator Agosto Pinochet.
Ric 538:
Excuse me, but I am utterly at a loss to understand the basis on which you
remove messages or allow them to stand. Raven & Rungu have repeatedly invoked
Israel, Zionism, Jews and their beliefs and actions in their posts. In #394,
for example, Rungu states his belief that Jews cause antisemitism, and that
they were responsible for their own murder. Is that on-topic, while responses
to such statements are off-topic?
In my opinion, you need to exercise either very, very firm control over such
matters (by, for instance, deleting all messages which refer to Israel, as
well as all messages which refer to Jews in any context other than the
"debate" over the facts of their murder), or allow people to respond as they
see fit, within the no-personal- attacks rules.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 564 Fri Apr 03, 1992
TERMY at 00:46 EST
From the situation report of Gebietskommissar Gerhard
Erren, 25 January 1942
The town of Slonim is a haphazard jumble of a few good stone buildings,
quite a few serviceable wooden houses and a good many dilapidated log
shacks ripe for demolition. There are no uniformly well-maintained
enclosed quarters which would be suitable as areas for Germans to live
in. One-third of the town has been completely destroyed. As a result of
this and the heavy influx of refugees, when I arrived Slonim was
severely overpopulated and the housing situation in some places
catastrophic. The Judenaktion on 13 November alleviated the situation
perceptibly. It resulted in our being able to clear a street completely
and set up homes and offices for Germans there. Work to clean this
street and the surrounding quarter in continuing in preparation for the
future SS base. Operating on the premise that my colleagues need the
highest standard of overall living conditinos in order to maintain peak
performance I saw to it from day one that each of our men not only has
decent accommodation and enough to eat but that his whole lifestyle
embodies German culture and the prestige appropriate to it. Our
accommodation is such that members of all the German services, including
Sonderfuehrer and police, eat together but in separate dining-rooms.
Standards of conduct are adhered to, with the result that even people
with little upbringing soon learn manners which command the respect of
the local serving staff towards the German master race.
Upon my arrival there were about 25,000 Jews in the Slonim area, 16,000
in the actual town itself, making up over two-thirds of the total
population of the town. It was not possible to set up a ghetto as
neither barbed wire nor guard manpower was available. I thus immediately
began preparations for a large-scale action. First of all property was
expropriated and all the German offical buildings, including the
Wehrmacht quarters, were equipped with the furniture and equipment that
had been made available. . . . Any articles which could not be used for
Germans were handed over to the town for sale to the local population.
Proceeds from their sale were sent to the finance department. The Jews
were then registered accurately according to number, age and profession
and all craftsmen and workers with qualifications were singled out and
given passes and separate accommodation to distinguish them from other
Jews. The action carried out by the SD on 13 November rid me of
unnecessary mouths to feed. The some 7,000 Jews now present in the town
of Slonim have all been allocated jobs. They are working willingly
because of the constant fear of death. Early next year they will be
rigorously checked and sorted for a further reduction.
The plains were extensively cleansed for a time by the Wehrmacht.
Unfortunately, however, this only took place in villages with fewer than
1,000 inhabitants. In the Rayon towns [the lowest administrative
districts in the USSR - Ed.] all Jews will be eradicated with the
exception of all but the most essential craftsmen and skilled workers,
after auxiliary work for the east-west movement has been carried out.
Since the Wehrmacht is no longer prepared to carry out actions on the
plains I shall concentrate all the Jews of the area into two or three
Rayon towns. They will work in closed columns only, in order to stamp
out once and for all illicit trading and support for the partisans made
to pass their skills on to intelligent apprentices in my craft colleges,
so that Jews will finally be dispensable in the skilled craft and trade
sector and can be eliminated.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 565 Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 01:07 EST
The next 5 posts are transcribed from "Shoah", Franz Suchomel, SS
Unterscharfuehrer interviewed by Claude Lanzmann
Lanzmann: Are you ready?
Suchomel: Yes. We can begin.
Lanzmann: How's your heart? Is everything in order?
Suchomel: Oh, my heart - for the moment, it's all right. If I have any pain
I'll tell you. We'll have to break off.
Lanzmann: Of course. But your health, in general, is. . .
Suchomel: The weather today suits me fine. The barometric pressure is high;
that's good for me.
Lanzmann: You look to be in good shape, anyway. Let 's begin with Treblinka I
believe you got there in August? Was it August 20 or 24?
Suchomel: The eighteenth.
Lanzmann: The eighteenth?
Suchomel: I don't know exactly. Around August 20. I arrived there with seven
other men.
Lanzmann: From Berlin?
Suchomel: From Berlin.
Lanzmann: From Lublin?
Suchomel: From Berlin to Warsaw, from Warsaw to Lublin, from Lublin back to
Warsaw and from Warsaw to Treblinka.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 566 Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 01:08 EST
(Suchomel interview, continued)
Lanzmann: What was Treblinka like then?
Suchomel: Treblinka then was operating at full capacity.
Lanzmann: Full capacity?
Suchomel: Full capacity! The Warsaw ghetto was being emptied then. Three
trains arrived in two days, each with three, four, five thousand people
aboard, all from Warsaw. But at the same time, other trains came in from
Kielce and other places. So three trains arrived, and since the offensive
against Stalingrad was in full swing, the trainloads of Jews were left on a
station siding. What's more, the cars were French, made of steel. So that
while five thousand Jews arrived in Treblinka, three thousand were dead in the
cars. They had slashed their wrists, or just died. The ones we unloaded were
half dead and half mad. In the other trains from Kielce and elsewhere, at
least half were dead. We stacked them here, here, here and here. Thousands of
people piled one on top of another on the ramp. Stacked like wood. In
addition, other Jews, still alive, waited there for two days: the small gas
chambers could no longer handle the load. They functioned day and night in
that period.
Lanzmann: Can you please describe, very precisely, your first impression of
Treblinka? Very precisely. lt's very important.
Suchomel: My first impression of Treblinka, and that of some of the other men,
was catastrophic. For we had not been told how and what ... that people were
being killed there. They hadn't told us.
Lanzmann: You didn't know?
Suchomel: No!
Lanzmann: Incredible!
Suchomel: But true. I didn't want to go. That was proved at my trial. I was
told: "Mr. Suchomel, there are big workshops there for tailors and shoemakers,
and you'll be guarding them."
Lanzmann: But you knew it was a camp?
Suchomel: Yes. We were told: "The Fuehrer ordered a resettlement program. It's
an order from the Fuehrer." Understand?
Lanzmann: Resettlement program.
Suchomel: Resettlement program. No one ever spoke of killing.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 567 Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 01:09 EST
(Suchomel interview, continued)
Lanzmann: I understand Mr. Suchomel, we're not discussing you, only Treblinka.
You are a very important eyewitness, and you can explain what Treblinka was.
Suchomel: But don't use my name.
Lanzmann: No, I promised. All right, you've arrived at Treblinka.
Suchomel: So Stadie, the sarge, showed us the camp from end to end. Just as we
went by, they were opening the gas-chamber doors, and people fell out like
potatoes. Naturally, that horrified and appalled us. We went back and sat down
on our suitcases and cried like old women.
Each day one hundred Jews were chosen to drag the corpses to the mass graves.
In the evening the Ukrainians drove those Jews into the gas chambers or shot
them. Every day!
It was in the hottest days of August. The ground undulated like waves because
of the gas.
Lanzmann: From the bodies?
Suchomel: Bear in mind, the graves were maybe eighteen, twenty feet deep, all
crammed with bodies! A thin layer of sand, and the heat. You see? It was a
hell up there.
Lanzmann: You saw that?
Suchomel: Yes, just once, the first day. We puked and wept.
Lanzmann: You wept?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 568 Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 01:10 EST
(Suchomel interview, continued)
Suchomel: We wept too, yes. The smell was infernal because gas was constantly
escaping. It stank horribly for miles around. You could smell it everywhere.
It depended on the wind. The stink was carried on the wind. Understand?
More people kept coming, always more, whom we hadn't the facilities to kill.
The brass was in a rush to clean out the Warsaw ghetto. The gas chambers
couldn't handle the load. The small gas chambers. The Jews had to wait their
turn for a day, two days, three days. They foresaw what was coming. They
foresaw it. They may not have been certain, but many knew. There were Jewish
women who slashed their daughters' wrists at night, then cut their own. Others
poisoned themselves.
They heard the engine feeding the gas chamber. A tank engine was used in that
gas chamber. At Treblinka the only gas used was engine exhaust. Zyklon gas-
that was Auschwitz. Because of the delay, Eberl, the camp commandant, phoned
Lublin and said: "We can't go on this way. I can't do it any longer. We have
to break off." Overnight, Wirth arrived. He inspected everything and then
left. He returned with people from Belzec, experts. Wirth arranged to suspend
the trains. The corpses lying there were cleared away. That was the period of
the old gas chambers. Because there were so many dead that couldn't be gotten
rid of, the bodies piled up around the gas chambers and stayed there for days.
Under this pile of bodies was a cesspool three inches deep, full of blood,
worms and shit. No one wanted to clean it out. The Jews preferred to be shot
rather than work there.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 569 Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 01:10 EST
(Suchomel interview, continued)
Lanzmann: Preferred to be shot?
Suchomel: It was awful. Burying their own people, seeing it all. The dead
flesh came off in their hands. So Wirth went there himself with a few Germans
and had long belts rigged up that were wrapped around the dead torsos to pull
them.
Lanzmann: Who did that?
Suchomel: SS men and Jews.
Lanzmann: Jews too?
Suchomel: Jews too!
Lanzmann: What did the Germans do?
Suchomel: They forced the Jews to . . .
Lanzmann: They beat them?
Suchomel: . . . or they themselves helped with the cleanup.
Lanzmann: Which Germans did that?
Suchomel: Some of our guards who were assigned up there.
Lanzmann: The Germans themselves?
Suchomel: They had to.
Lanzmann: They were in command!
Suchomel: They were in command, but they were also commanded.
Lanzmann: 1 think the Jews did it.
Suchomel: In that case, the Germans had to lend a hand.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 570 Fri Apr 03, 1992
A.K.QUINN at 03:18 EST
For the record: I am not an apologist for Jews as such, but I like to think I
have an obligation to tell the truth. So--
I never saw a gas chamber in use. Naturally. I saw chambers fitted out as I
described. Nazis were not known for building things for fun. I interviewed
many non-Jews at Dachau, including some who had no use for Jews, but had been
at other camps, including Auschwitz, and what they said tends to corroborate
the Holocaust thesis.
I served as Religious Affairs Officer in Military Government for Bavaria
after leaving Dachau. I had personal dealings with many German ecclesiastics,
including several Bishops (Cardinal Faulhaber was one.) I met German priests
and brothers who had served in the army and who had first-hand knowledge of
the extermination program.
I met only one who said the extermination policy was a figment, or Allied
propaganda. Everyone else agreed with what people like Von Galen and Faulhaber
said: that they knew all the Jews were doomed, until we came, at least.
Was I propagandized/indoctrinated about the Holocaust when I was ordered to
join the Dachau MG team? Pete's sake, I had just come down from Belgium where
I survived the Bulge and the Malmedy slaughter by the SS. I knew what a
Konzentrationslager was, that's all. Period.
I am not easily fooled by propaganda or uncorroborated testimony. I
believed some inmates but not all. And when we brought in townspeople from the
twon of dachau to bury the dead, I saw them leave shaken abd stunned. The SS
at Dachau? Damn few; they ran, leaving ordinary Wehrmacht soldaten to face the
music. You should have heard those guys...
Now, I have been accused (not here) of antisemitism because I oppose the
treatment of Palestinians in Israel: too bad, there are Jews who agree with
me. But what any Jew may do now, even if I oppose him, has nothing to do with
what I saw and did. (I found out later that the reason I was sent to Dachau
was that I could speak Latin, and we knew there were a lot of priests there,
not because I would be pro or con Jews, Judaism, or anything else. When Polish
and German inmates told me of the wholesale extermination of Jews, I figured
they had no reason to lie.) =KevinQ=
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 571 Fri Apr 03, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche] at 03:21 EST
Rungu
RE: 546
Pooh-Bah has stated several times that the Hoess confession should not be
relied upon as a primary source document because of the possibility of its
extraction by force.
Scaramouche
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 572 Fri Apr 03, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:31 EST
To Termy (regarding 402, et al) ---
Relative to your wholesale posting of documents, I would ask that you
take it easy on yourself and post only enough to make a point. You
may, of course, do as you wish.
---
Because it would take months (if not years) to go through everything
you have posted, I will take one statistic of Hilberg's that you have
quoted and examine it, with the hopes that I can show the difficulty
of accurately determining war-time demographics, and the fallicy of
accepting even Hilberg's figures.
.
According to Hilberg, there were 270,000 deaths of Jews in Roumania,
based on the 1937 borders. According to Hilberg's first edition of
"The Destruction of the European Jews," in 1939 Roumania had 800,000
Jews. In June 1940, 300,000 Jews were included in land ceded to
Russia. Land ceded to Transylvania contained a further 150,000 Jews.
Hilberg goes on to state, "The remaining Jews in Old Roumania
consequently numbered about 350,000." So far, so good.
.
Hilberg later repeats his 800,000 figure (number of Jews in Roumania
in 1939), and adds that in 1945 (presumably after the war) there were
430,000 Jews in Roumania, although this figure is for Jews within the
post-war boundaries. According to my encyclopedia, after WWII,
Roumania's loss of Bessarabia and northern Bukovina to the Soviet
Union, and her loss of southern Dobruja to Bulgaria, were made
permanent (she regained northern Transylvania). Thus, the post-war
borders were much smaller, and did NOT include lands that had
originally contained a large number of Jews.
.
Later, Hilberg states again that in 1945 and 1946, the number of
survivors and those who returned to Roumania numbered 430,000, that
in various migrations between 1945 and 1952 some 185,000 Jews left
Roumania, and that in 1957 there remained 245,000 Jews in Roumania.
.
However, in a recent article in (I believe) the Canadian Jewish News
(which I do not have in front of me, but which was read to me over
the phone a couple weeks ago by Ernst Zuendel in Toronto, Canada),
after the war the Roumanians allowed Jews to emigrate if they would
pay a tax of some kind. The article states that this tax amounted to
a considerable sum, but that in spite of everything 300,000 Jews took
advantage of the offer.
---
Now we run into a problem. There is no mention in Hilberg of 300,000
Jews taking part in any such action. Furthermore, even discounting
the population rise between 1952 and 1957, there is no way to
subtract 300,000 from 430,000 and come up with 245,000.
.
Worse, if Roumania got back Transylvania (which had 150,000 Jews at
one time), she could have had some 450,000 Jews, which is very close
to the number 430,000 given by Hilberg. However, to have 245,000 Jews
left in Roumania in 1957 but at the same time have 270,000 murdered
by the Germans (and Roumanians, but let's not get into THAT), you
need to have started with 515,000 Jews in Old Roumania, which Hilberg
does not claim.
---
With this single example, we can see that demographics figures for
Jews of this period in this area are fraught with inconsistencies.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 573 Fri Apr 03, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:32 EST
To Termy (regarding 408, et al) ---
In reference to your posting of the diary of Dr. Johann-Paul Kremer,
who was stationed at Auschwitz.
---
Paul Rassinier has stated, "You will see how, at first sight, it is
troubling, and then how, if you analyze it with a little care, it
constitutes a terrible fiasco for the Exterminationists. I prize the
Kremer case very much. It shows how fragile are the proofs that
people offer to us, to what extent they allow themselves to be easily
deceived by appearances, how much the official historians have
misused the texts and how it is necessary to work if you wish, in the
study of texts, to distinguish between the true and the false,
between the real meaning and the misinterpretation."
.
Rather than subject you to Rassinier's blow-by-blow analysis, I will
present the high points.
---
First, it is obvious to anyone reading this text that the word
"gassing" appears only once, and ONLY in connection with ridding a
block of lice (see also Staeglich on this point). Zyklon B this is
presented as a disinfectant.
---
Second, although Kremer speaks of attending 14 "special actions," he
does not tell us what these are. We may read into these words many
things, and in fact we have to because Kremer is not specific.
---
Third, one of the most "damaging" passages is the entry of 2
September 1942, in which you have Kremer saying:
.
> 3.00 a.m. attended my first Sonderaktion. Dante s Inferno seem to
me almost a comedy compared to this. They don t call Auschwitz the
extermination camp for nothing!
.
However, this is different from the translation given by Georges
Wellers, Serge Klarsfeld, and Leon Poliakov. The biggest
discrepancies, however, are not between your version and that of
these well-known exterminationists, but between any of these versions
and the original German document (see NO-3408 in the National
Archives), which Rassinier translates as:
.
> This morning, at 3 o'clock, I was present OUTSIDE for the first
time at a SPECIAL ACTION. Compared to that, Dante's Inferno appearls
TO ME ALMOST LIKE a comedy. It is not without reason that Auschwitz
is called THE camp of THE ANNIHILATION! (emphasis Rassinier's,
showing words omitted or mistranslated by Wellers, Poliakov, and
Klarsfeld)
.
Where Rassinier goes on for pages describing the meaning of this
paragraph, for us it should be sufficient to see that the word
"outside" has been omitted from your version. This one single change
completely alters the meaning of this passage. Were the "gas
chambers" outside? Of course not.
---
Thus, the Kremer diary entries not only do not prove that Auschwitz
was an extermination camp, they prove just the opposite.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 574 Fri Apr 03, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:32 EST
To AH.STEIN (regarding 426) ---
>> ... Mel Mermelstein s frivolous legal actions against the
Institute for Historical Review
> Somehow, the court did not agree with your assessment, and ordered
the Institute for Historical Misrepresentation to pay up.
.
You not only have gratuitously attacked the IHR, you have completely
misstated the case and ignored recent developments.
.
1) The court took judicial notice of the Holocaust, making it
virtually impossible for the underfinanced IHR to present its case.
2) The IHR settled with Mermelstein to avoid a lengthy and costly
court battle. The court did not (and could not) order them to do
this.
3) Mermelstein's latest adventure against the IHR ended
ignominiously, as Mermelstein's case did not even last through the
first day of the hearings.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 575 Fri Apr 03, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:33 EST
To Sheri Pierce (regarding 428) ---
> Termy, the Kremer entries ... the gross indifference is chilling. I
recognize the entry 18 October 1942. That is the entry Faurisson lied
about. French scholar George Weller debunked those lies.
.
Please post the "lies," but keep in mind that Georges Wellers has
mistranslated and misrepresented the Kremer diaries (see my earlier
post to Termy), and is hardly an unimpeachable source.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 576 Fri Apr 03, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:33 EST
To Pooh.bah (regarding 443) ---
I have lost count of how many times you have depended on the
Franke-Gricksch Resettlement Action Report ... and yet you still
ignore my questions about its authenticity, and you have yet to
respond to my challenge to discuss the contents of this report. I can
understand that it is vital to your position, but you MUST do more
than simply repeat it time and again.
.
Now, I must demand: tell us the details of the copy of this document
you have said you reviewed (what it looked like, where it is, etc.),
so that we can begin discussing the text of the Report.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 581 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:44 EST
544 Hans-Peter:
> Upper Silesia a tropical environment???? You can't be serious POOH.BAH!
> North Dakota gets hot in the summer too, but it is hardly tropical. We
> sometimes get temperatures in the mid thirties (Celsius) in Toronto, but
> I would hardly describe the environment as tropical.
What you are talking about is the climate. I've quoted diary enteries that
speak of the weather. These two words are different. Climate is what one
expects and weather is what one gets.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 582 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:45 EST
544 Hans-Peter:
> The only thing that would burn of itself on a corpse is the fat content,
> layered on the surface. As you point out, these had none or little fat.
> The statement talks about "fresh" corpses. This implies to me that the
> person had been alive shortly before. If they were alive, even if
> dehydrated, they must still have been at least 85% to 90% water since
> otherwise life would be impossible. If they were dehydrated to the same
> extent that an Egyptian mummy is dehydrated then they might burn passably
> well, but then one could hardly talk about a "fresh" corpse.
If you will re-read the document, it is making a comparison statement. The
comparison is implicitly made between these "fresh corpses" and those which
are not so fresh.
The not so fresh corpses would have probably been embalmed (which is done by
non-flamable materials) and also would probably have been in a casket.
Therefore, the comparison is probably valid or, bare minimum, until this
experiment is reproduced, I see no reason to doubt it since there are
reasonable explanations.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 583 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:45 EST
547 Rungu:
> I think that in future references to him [Mark Weber], you should consider
> being a little more careful in how you express yourself, because the clear
> impression is generated of sneers and jeers whenever his name crops up.
Perhaps, now that you know my position on Mark Weber, you will not
automatically assume the "sneers and jeers." Since this media does not permit
you to see body language or hear tone of voice, you might, in the future,
realize that those "sneers and jeers" of which you have had the "impression"
in the past were not put there by the author but by the reader.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 584 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:46 EST
547 Rungu:
> I think the smears and mud-slinging at the Institute should stop. To
> express disagreement with it's findings and published material is
> acceptable, but the constant "neo-Nazi" and "anti-semitic" slurs are out
> of place.
This comment in a message addressed to me carries with it the implication
that _I_ have referred to the IHR as "anti-Semitic" or "neo-Nazi." Could you
please review the messages in both the TOPics (if necessary) and correct this
false implication? Or, if you wish, you may cite a message of mine in which
I have referred to the IHR in such terms.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 585 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:46 EST
548 Rungu:
> You said "both you and Raven have made this statement that the holocaust
> is the one single area of history which is the most rife with historical
> error but thus far neither of you have offered anything to substantiate
> this." Are you serious?
Yes, I am serious. Both you and Raven have made the statement that the
Holocaust is the ONE single area of history which is the MOST rife with
historical error. To substantiate this (since it is a comparison statement),
you have to show how other historical events are LESS rife with error and,
since you have yet to refute ALL the documents that I have u/l'ed, you must
also substantiate that the historiography of the Holocaust is rife with
errors.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 586 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:47 EST
548 Rungu:
> We still see eyewitness' and survivors' claims about human soap,
> lampshades, and gassings in camps on German soil (by way of another
> example, check our Mr. Quinn's messages about the "gas chambers" at
> Dachau).
As I've pointed out before, Kevin Quinn is correct in his observations of gas
chambers at Dachau. As far as lampshades and soap, you have offered no
refutation either here or in e-mail to me regarding the documents that I
u/l'ed.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 587 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:47 EST
548 Rungu:
> But what makes the holocaust unique in this regard is that it has become
> virtually a dogma, and to criticise or look too closely at this dogma
> means the "punishment" that Professor Faurisson of France has suffered, or
> Dr. Wilhelm Staglich of Germany, or Mr. Zundel of Canada, or the Institute
> for Historical Review in our country (the fire bombing, the frivolous
> court actions against it). This makes it all the more important to resist
> the intimidation and terrorism directed against holocaust revisionism and
> to get the job done (and it is BEING done by courageous men and women in
> spite of the attacks, the bombings, the being dragged into court, etc.).
> BTW, I am STILL awaiting a clear condemnation from you of those who
> perpetrate such attacks and intimidation against revisionists. In fact,
> you haven't even admitted that such things even happen.
First, I do condemn the fire bombing of the IHR. It should be noted, however,
that it has never been proven who the responsible party was. That doesn't
make my condemnation any less but I certainly didn't want your statement to
stand with its implication that it was done because of the work the IHR does
or by those who support the reality of the Holocaust.
For instance, I could point out that yesterday, there was a radio talk show
in which Bradley Smith appeared for 50 minutes and Rabbi Marvin Hier from the
Simon Wiesenthal Center was permitted a 10 minute rebuttal. After the radio
show, the Simon Wiesenthal Center had a bomb threat. If I left these two
statements stand, the implication would obviously be that there was a cause
and effect. However, that cause and effect cannot be proven and, therefore,
it would be equally false for me to make it (such as your cause and effect
regarding the IHR fire bombing).
As far as "frivolous court actions," you wouldn't want to mention the lible
suit that Carto, the IHR, etc. brought against Mel Mermelstein would you?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 588 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:48 EST
549 Rungu:
> I have read Anne Frank's Diary, and recently learned that it was written
> by somebody else AFTER the war.
This indicates one of the many errors made by the Holocaust Deniers. But,
what is really funny is the following:
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 55 Fri Mar 13, 1992
M.RUNGU at 22:35 EST
To Mr. Raven,
As an afterthought, I have another question.
I have a book called THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK. When I read it, I was very
moved; Anne Frank wrote about her sufferings before the Germans took her
away to Auschwitz and gassed her. My question is, have you read this book,
and if, after reading it, how can you question the holocaust? The DIARY is
required reading is many or most schools, and really, to me at least, it
represents the holocaust like no other book can. I am sure that most of the
people who have read Anne's diary will agree with me there.
Your comments?
------------
Now, my disproof of your current claim was also posted in message 61 TOPic 4:
------------
Category 15, Topic 4
Message 61 Sat Mar 14, 1992
POOH.BAH at 00:53 EST
55 M.Rungu: Are you serious, a shill or Greg in "disguise?" I find it very
interesting that you are only asking questions which exactly match the
pre-set Holocaust Deniers' dogma.
If you would like to know all about Anne Frank's diaries and loose sheets, I
would recommend that you check into the "Critical Edition" of her diary. It
is fascinating. First there is a group of essays, reports, etc. which include
the results from the State Science Forensic Laboratory of the Netherlands.
The SSFL tested the diaries and loose sheets for purposes of authenticating
them. Their final report was over 250 pages but there is an excellent summary
in the "Critical Edition."
I will be more than happy to summarize the results here but, suffice it to
say, they were able to determine that all the materials used (i.e. paper,
ink, binding, glue, etc.) were available at the time that Anne was in hiding
and, it turns out that shortly thereafter, elements which were present in
these materials at that time were removed. For instance, the ink had a high
concentration of iron but within five years inks no longer contained iron or
had very low concentrations.
The handwriting has been compared to other samples of Anne's writing from
letters to friends, etc. and it checks out perfectly.
The "Critical Edition" also contains all the diaries and loose sheets with
only minor changes. For instance, there are people mentioned in the diaries
who are still livin today. Some of them refused to grant permission to use
their names so initials are used instead.
Even with all of this and the fact that the diaries are fascinating, I have
to disagree that they tell the story of the Holocaust unlike any other
source. The diaries are the story of the life of one girl who died of typhus
quite a while after the last entry in the diary. The Holocaust was the
systematic destruction of over six million European Jews by the Nazis before
and during WWII. The diaries mention nothing of that....at best, they give us
insight into the lives of Jews who were hidden by the Righteous of the
Nations.
------------
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 589 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:49 EST
549 Rungu:
> I have never presented myself as a "scholar" who NEVER makes mistakes. Do
> you know of somebody who pretends to such omniscience, POOH.BAH?
No, I know of no person who has made such a statement. I do, however, know of
a person who had her words twisted by another to mean something other than
what was said.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 590 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:50 EST
550 Rungu:
> And how about the media? Wouldn't you agree with me that the mass media
> has been extremely irresponsible in that it has rarely, if ever, made
> mention, in any form, of the commission of ALLIED war crimes, but, rather,
> in it's presentation of World War II crimes, dwells almost exclusively on
> GERMAN commissions?
No, I cannot agree with you that the MEDIA has been irresponsible in this
regard. The media is a business and, as such, must make business decisions to
maximize profits and minimize losses.
I would agree, however, that our UNIVERSITIES and other educational
institutions have been irresponsible in this regard. Fair enough?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 591 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:50 EST
550 Rungu:
> The point is that World War II was the holocaust. Jewish people have
> co-opted the entire event and present it almost entirely from their own
> perspective, as a result of which "the holocaust" is now defined and
> accepted as something that only happened to Jewish people. I think this
> is wrong and immoral, and if your approach to this is honest and
> straightforward, you will join me in condemning and rejecting it. We are
> waiting.
Before the 1960s-1970s (I can search out the exact date if you would like),
the term "holocaust" was never spelled with a capital "H" and the word simply
meant: "an offering the whole of which is burned; burnt offering" having been
derived from the Greek.
It was Elie Wiesel who, in an article, coined the term Holocaust (with a
capital letter) for the destruction of European Jewry under the Nazis.
Therefore, the Jewish people have not "co-opted" this term or the event. The
Holocaust (capital "H") refers to its original meaning. BTW, you might be
interested to discover that Elie Wiesel has often commented that he regrets
having used that term because he feels that others now use it as a means of
insulating themselves from its meaning.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 592 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:51 EST
552 Rungu:
> In conformity with your new censorship policy which you state is
> "unbiased", I want to protest your tolerance of POOH.BAH's constant
> attacks and ridicules of G.RAVEN.
Here you go making an unsubstantiated accusation again. Please cite messages
which indicate that I have made "constant attacks" and that I "ridicule"
Raven. I admit that, early on in the discussion (in TOPic 4), I did ridicule
and mock Raven because of his purposeful ignoring of the meanings of the
documents that I posted. However, I was warned by the sysops about that and
I have since refrained. Therefore, unless you can cite messages in which I
have done so, I must once again ask you to admit your error.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 593 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:51 EST
572 Raven:
Now, you have finally given us some information with which to work. Thank
you.
> Hilberg later repeats his 800,000 figure (number of Jews in Roumania
> in 1939), and adds that in 1945 (presumably after the war) there were
> 430,000 Jews in Roumania, although this figure is for Jews within the
> post-war boundaries. According to my encyclopedia, after WWII,
> Roumania's loss of Bessarabia and northern Bukovina to the Soviet
> Union, and her loss of southern Dobruja to Bulgaria, were made
> permanent (she regained northern Transylvania). Thus, the post-war
> borders were much smaller, and did NOT include lands that had
> originally contained a large number of Jews.
Let's go through this slowly. 800,000 Jews in pre-war Romania. Lands ceded
which included 300,000 Jews to Russia and 150,000 Jews in Transylvania. That
left 350,000 Jews in Romania. Therefore, assuming no deaths, births or
deportations/migrations, that would mean the post-war boundaries would
encompass 500,000 Jews which is more than 50% of the original total Jewish
population for Romania. Yet, you maintain that the post-war borders "did NOT
include lands that had originally contianed a large number of Jews."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 594 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:52 EST
572 Raven:
To continue with this same passage:
> Hilberg later repeats his 800,000 figure (number of Jews in Roumania
> in 1939), and adds that in 1945 (presumably after the war) there were
> 430,000 Jews in Roumania, although this figure is for Jews within the
> post-war boundaries. According to my encyclopedia, after WWII,
> Roumania's loss of Bessarabia and northern Bukovina to the Soviet
> Union, and her loss of southern Dobruja to Bulgaria, were made
> permanent (she regained northern Transylvania). Thus, the post-war
> borders were much smaller, and did NOT include lands that had
> originally contained a large number of Jews.
800,000 Jews were in pre-war Romania. Lands ceded which included 300,000 Jews
to Russia and 150,000 Jews in Transylvania. That left 350,000 Jews in
Romania. These 350,000 would obviously be considered "Rumanian Jews" but what
about the rest?
There were massive deportations, executions, etc. Post-war, there were DP
camps throughout Europe. Transylvania was re-united with Romania and,
therefore, the Jews living there would also be considered "Rumanian Jews."
Many Jews attempted through all the post-war upheaval to escape Europe
altogether. Romania reorganized their gov't and it was neither fascist nor
communist immediately after the war. More importantly, though, is that
Romania was on one of the routes to Palestine.
Your whole message assumes that once a Rumanian Jew, one didn't necessarily
remain a Rumanian Jew (i.e. through land ceded to another country) and that
no one new could BECOME a Rumanian Jew.
Therefore, the figures you state become meaningless as proof of the fallacy
of Hilberg's figures.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 595 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:53 EST
572 Raven:
> However, in a recent article in (I believe) the Canadian Jewish News
> (which I do not have in front of me, but which was read to me over
> the phone a couple weeks ago by Ernst Zuendel in Toronto, Canada),
> after the war the Roumanians allowed Jews to emigrate if they would
> pay a tax of some kind. The article states that this tax amounted to
> a considerable sum, but that in spite of everything 300,000 Jews took
> advantage of the offer.
Once again you are guilty of comparing apples and oranges. You admit that the
Hilberg data you discuss comes from the first edition of his multi-volume set
which he began writing in 1948 and was published in the 1950's. You then
compare this to a "recent article." Better that you compare Hilberg's most
recent edition (1985) to the recent article.
If you do so, you will find that for the period 1948-1980, Hilberg DOES
account for the 300,000. The figure he states is 340,000 who emigrated during
that time.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 596 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:53 EST
572 Raven:
> Worse, if Roumania got back Transylvania (which had 150,000 Jews at
> one time), she could have had some 450,000 Jews, which is very close
> to the number 430,000 given by Hilberg. However, to have 245,000 Jews
> left in Roumania in 1957 but at the same time have 270,000 murdered
> by the Germans (and Roumanians, but let's not get into THAT), you
> need to have started with 515,000 Jews in Old Roumania, which Hilberg
> does not claim.
Here you have made a simple math error in the first sentence. 350,000 (the
number of Jews remaining in Romania after lands were ceded) plus 150,000 (the
number of Jews in pre-war Transylvania) equal 500,000 and not the 450,000
figure you mention.
Now, the 270,000 murdered Rumanian Jews is based upon the original figure of
800,000 Rumanian Jews (number in Romania pre-war) and not the number from the
post-war borders. Hilberg clearly states that the countries listed in the
table in which he states 270,000: "Borders refer to 1937. Converts to
Christianity are included, and refugees are counted with the countries from
which they were deported."
This notation also brings up an interesting point. Converts to Christianity
were not spared the fate of the rest of European Jewry. However, those who
had converted before 1939 (the date of the 800,000 census figure) are NOT
included in that first figure.
Realizing these facts should clear up any inconsistencies that you feel
remains. I do agree with you, though, you have shown the difficulty of
accurately determining war-time demographics.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 597 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:54 EST
573 Raven:
> In reference to your posting of the diary of Dr. Johann-Paul Kremer,
> who was stationed at Auschwitz.
> ---
> Paul Rassinier has stated:
Raven, you have seen me state that I have respect for Mark Weber yet disagree
with his overall conclusions. I've been asked by many WHY I respect Mark
Weber. One of the reasons I do is because there are some points on which we
do agree. Our opinion of Paul Rassinier being one of them.
To quote from Lenski's book on Mark Weber's sworn testimony at the Zuendel
trial:
"Christie [Zuendel's attorney] questioned Weber about Paul Rassinier, the
French revisionist pioneer on whom Harwood relied heavily. Weber regretted
Rassinier's shortcomings, but emphasized his reliability about subjects of
which he had first-hand knowledge, such as the Buchenwald and Dora camps. ...
Weber vigorously challenged the tendency of both Harwood and Rassinier to
overemphasize the alleged Jewish financial interest in upholding the
Holocaust story."
I base my agreement with Weber on my reading of Rassinier's "The Holocaust
Story" and "The Lies of Ulysses."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 598 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:55 EST
574 Raven:
It is curious that you have forgotten to mention the IHR suit against
Mermelstein for lible. That one didn't even last long enough to go to a
hearing!
There was only ONE of multiple counts which did not last the first day of the
hearing. However, the Mermelstein case against the IHR is being appealed and
the other counts of the suit are waiting until it can all go forward with all
counts.
And, would you admit that the IHR now has vastly greater sums at its disposal
than does Mel Mermelstein who has had to privately finance all of his legal
proceedings?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 599 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 09:55 EST
576 Raven:
> To Pooh.bah (regarding 443) ---
> I have lost count of how many times you have depended on the
> Franke-Gricksch Resettlement Action Report ... and yet you still
> ignore my questions about its authenticity, and you have yet to
> respond to my challenge to discuss the contents of this report. I can
> understand that it is vital to your position, but you MUST do more
> than simply repeat it time and again.
> .
> Now, I must demand: tell us the details of the copy of this document
> you have said you reviewed (what it looked like, where it is, etc.),
> so that we can begin discussing the text of the Report.
Apparently you missed my message that I posted yesterday:
>476 Raven:
>> I have described in some detail the characteristics of the carbon copy of
>> the typescript copy of this alleged report. In return, I asked for
>> nothing more than a description from you of the document you claim to
>> have "reviewed".
It is a carbon copy of the original (as I have previously stated). It can be
found in the document center in Berlin. The carbon copy I reviewed has none
of the errors that you have previously mentioned (which I found amazing since
you cited no source for those errors and, yet, you have admitted to not
knowing German....how did you do that?).
What further description would you like?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 601 Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:04 EST
Back in message 699 in TOPic 4, Rungu made the comment that "Berlin alone had
some 50,000 Jews still living there, free, to the great surprise and
embarrassment of the holocaust-legend exaggerators. Hundreds of thousands or
perhaps millions of Soviet Jews from the western regions of the (former!)
U.S.S.R. lived and breathed and later emigrated elsewhere, decades AFTER the
war."
Many others have demanded to know Rungu's source for these statements solely
on the certainty that it is false and that certainty is based upon the "fact"
that the Nazis deported every Jew they could to the ghettos and camps.
Let's look at Rungu's statements and see what is true and what is false. Were
50,000 Jews still living in Berlin at the end of the war? No. Were "hundreds
of thousands or perhaps millions" of Soviet Jews from the western regions of
the USSR still alive? Well, that is a wee bit of an exaggeration. Do the
facts embarrass Holocaust historians? Not at all. In fact, without the
Holocaust historians, we probably wouldn't know about the Jews who did live
relatively freely in Europe during the Nazi years.
So, what are the facts? There WERE hundreds of thousand (but not millions) of
European (not just Soviet) Jews who did live relatively freely in Europe
during the Nazi years. Actually, 500,000 has been given as a conservative
estimate of this group. There WERE 28,000 (not 50,000) of these Jews in
Berlin at the end of the war. There WERE 50,000 (this is probably where Rungu
made his mistake) of these Jews living in GERMANY (not just Berlin) at the
end of the war.
Who were these Jews? These were Jews in mixed marriages, children of mixed
marriages and "essential" Jews. Although these Jews were not allowed to
pursue their educations (the children, that is) nor work in the professions,
they were permitted the same rations and lifestyle as the rest of the non-
Jewish populations and their property was not "Aryanized." They were not in
hiding but lived in the open. There were also many cases where a marriage
going sour was kept together to protect the Jewish spouse. Yet, the Gentile
spouse is not recognized as one of the Righteous of the Nations.
What is probably the most interesting is that according to Judaic Law, if the
mother is Jewish, the child is Jewish. However, for the most part, the
Mischlinge children who were the best protected were those whose mothers were
Jewish but their fathers were Gentiles - especially if the child had been
baptized.
So, Rungu did make some false statements but the statements weren't nearly as
false as some here seem to believe. For those who would like to know more
about this group of Jews, you might consult: _Special Treatment: The Untold
Story of the Survival of Jews in Hitler's Third Reich_ by Alan Abrams.
Although this book is in the nature of "eyewitness accounts" (i.e. those who
were actually beneficiaries of the "special treatment"), it is a good
introduction to this aspect of the Nazi period.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 602 Fri Apr 03, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton] at 18:22 EST
[a few personal attacks deleted, several off-topic messages moved to topics 7
and 4. Please note that topic 4 is now open to discuss side issues that pop
up here that are not directly related to the Holocaust itself. -Ric/PF*NPC]
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 604 Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 20:07 EST
Raven 572
>> [Hilberg is discredited because he doesn't cover what was..] in a recent
article in (I believe) the Canadian Jewish News (which I do not have in front
of me, but which was read to me over the phone a couple weeks ago by Ernst
Zuendel in Toronto, Canada),
HA HA HA HA HA. Did you expect anyone to take such slipshod reporting by you
as a serious impugning of Hilberg?
Raven 573
(Regarding the mental gymnastics you attributed to Rassinier that if "special
actions" attended by Kremer were "outside", one should conclude "the Kremer
diary entries not only do not prove that Auschwitz was an extermination camp,
they prove just the opposite.")
You've demonstrated a complete absense of rational thought or logic. Kremer
said Auschwitz was an extermination camp (or in Rassinier's stilted
translation "the camp of the annihilation". You're denying the obvious.
Raven 575
>> Please post the "lies," but keep in mind that Georges Wellers has
mistranslated and misrepresented the Kremer diaries (see my earlier
post to Termy), and is hardly an unimpeachable source.
Refer to 4 #832, Top 9 #9 or Top 9 #352.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 605 Fri Apr 03, 1992
M.FEINS at 20:09 EST
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the Multi Millions of
JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,
MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
and their sick Nazi Masters
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 606 Fri Apr 03, 1992
AH.STEIN at 20:41 EST
499 Rungu:
>Again, I am confused.
Which company was it that claimed progress was its most important product?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 607 Fri Apr 03, 1992
AH.STEIN at 20:42 EST
500 Rungu:
>Yad Vashem "does not discriminate based upon religion"? Do they
discriminate based upon any other criteria? You have clearly said that the
Yad Vashem will accept ALL researchers interested in learning more about
the holocaust. Can Mark Weber go there? Would he be welcomed and given
every courtesy?
Obviously, since Weber is not a researcher "interested in learning more
about the holocaust," but is an anti-semite interested in denying the
Holocaust, he does not qualify.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 608 Fri Apr 03, 1992
AH.STEIN at 20:42 EST
547 Rungu:
>I think the smears and mud-slinging at the Institute [of Historical
Misinformation] should stop.
It is extremely difficult to smear an organization devoted to a complete
rewrite of history.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 609 Fri Apr 03, 1992
AH.STEIN at 20:43 EST
549 Rungu:
>I have read Anne Frank's Diary, and recently learned that it was written
by somebody else AFTER the war.
When you make such an outrageous claim, you might increase your credibility
if you backed it up. (I know, that's impossible, because there's nothing
to back it up.)
The repetition of an outrageous lie was one of the favorite techniques of
the Nazi propaganda machine. It has been resurrected by the spiritual
descendants of the Nazis, the Holocaust deniers.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 610 Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 20:44 EST
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka) Next 9 messages
Suchomel: The new gas chambers were built in September 1942.
Lanzmann: Who built them?
Suchomel: Hackenhold and Lambert supervised the Jews who did the work, the
bricklaying at least. Ukrainian carpenters made the doors. The gas-chamber
doors themselves were armored bunker doors. I think they were brought from
Bialystok, from some Russian bunkers.
Lanzmann: What was the capacity of the new gas chambers? There were two of
them, right?
Suchomel: Yes. But the old ones hadn't been demolished. When there were a lot
of trains, a lot of people, the old ones were put back into service. And here
... the Jews say there were five on each side. I say there were four, but I'm
not sure. In any case, only the upper row on this side was in action.
Lanzmann: Why not the other side?
Suchomel: Disposing of the bodies would have been too complicated.
Lanzmann: Too far?
Suchomel: Yes. Up there Wirth had built the death camp, assigning a detail of
Jewish workers to it. The detail had a fixed number in it, around two hundred
people, who worked only in the death camp.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 611 Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 20:45 EST
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka) Continued
Lanzmann: But what was the capacity of the new, gas chambers?
Suchomel: The new gas chambers... Let's see... They could finish off three
thousand people in two hours.
Lanzmann: How many people at once in a single gas chamber?
Suchomel: I can't say exactly. The Jews say two hundred. Imagine a room this
size.
Lanzmann: They put more in at Ausczwitz.
Suchomel: Auschwitz was a factory!
Lanzmann: And Treblinka?
Suchomel: I'll give you my definition. Keep this in mind! Treblinka was a
primitive but efficient production line of death. Understand?
Lanzmann: Yes. But primitive?
Suchomel: Primitive, yes. But it worked well, that production line of death.
Lanzmann: Was Belzec even more rudimentary?
Suchomel: Belzec was the laboratory. Wirth was camp commandant. He tried
everything imaginable there. He got off on the wrong foot. The pits were
overflowing and the cesspool seeped out in front of the SS mess hall. It stank
in front of the mess hall, in front of their barracks.
Lanzmann: Were you at Belzec?
Suchomel: No. Wirth with his own men -with Franz, with Oberhauser and
Hackenhold- he tried everything there. Those three had to put the bodies in
the pits themselves so that Wirth could see how much space he needed. And when
they rebelled -Franz refused- Wirth beat Franz with a whip. He whipped
Hackenhold too. You see?
Lanzmann: Kurt Franz?
Suchomel: Kurt Franz. That's how Wirth was. Then, with that experience behind
him, he came to Treblinka.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 613 Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 20:46 EST
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka) Continued
[...]
Suchomel: "Looking squarely ahead, brave and joyous, at the world, the squads
march to work. All that matters to us now is Treblinka. It is our destiny.
That's why we've become one with Treblinka in no time at all. We know only the
word of our Commander, we know only obedience and duty, we want to serve, to
go on serving, until a little luck ends it all. Hurray!"
Lanzmann: Once more, but louder!
Suchomel: We're laughing about it, but it's so sad!
Lanzmann: No one's laughing.
Suchomel: Don't be sore at me. You want history - I'm giving you history.
Franz wrote the words. The melody came from Buchenwald. Camp Buchenwald, where
Franz was a guard. New Jews who arrived in the morning, new "worker Jews,"
were taught the song. And by evening they had to be able to sing along with
it.
Lanzmann: Sing it again.
Suchomel: All right.
Lanzmann: lt's very important. But loud!
Suchomel: "Looking squarely ahead, brave and joyous, at the world, the squads
march to work. All that matters to us now is Treblinka. It is our destiny.
That's why we've become one with Treblinka in no time at all. We know only the
word of our Commander, we know only obedience and duty, we want to serve, to
go on serving, until a little luck ends it all. Hurray!"
Suchomel: Satisfied? That's unique. No Jew knows that today!
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 614 Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 20:46 EST
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka) Continued
Lanzmann: How was it possible it Treblinka in peak days to "process" eighteen
thousand people?
Suchomel: Eighteen thousand is too high.
Lanzmann: But I read that figure in court reports.
Suchomel: Sure.
Lanzmann: To "process" eighteen thousand people, to liquidate them...
Suchomel: Mr. Lanzmann, that's an exaggeration. Believe me.
Lanzmann: How many?
Suchomel: Twelve thousand to fifteen thousand. But we had to spend half the
night at it. In January the trains started arriving at 6 A.M.
Lanzmann: Always at 6 A.M.?
Suchomel: Not always. Often. The schedules were erratic. Sometimes one came at
6 A.M., then another at noon, maybe another late in the evening. You see?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 615 Fri Apr 03, 1992
AH.STEIN at 20:47 EST
574 Raven:
> You not only have gratuitously attacked the IHR,
My pleasure. They deserve all attacks launched against them.
>you have completely misstated the case and ignored recent developments.
.
1) The court took judicial notice of the Holocaust, making it
virtually impossible for the underfinanced IHR to present its case.
It's hard to present a case based on fantasy and lies.
2) The IHR settled with Mermelstein to avoid a lengthy and costly
court battle. The court did not (and could not) order them to do
this.
The IHR has not suffered from a lack of resources.
3) Mermelstein's latest adventure against the IHR ended ignominiously, as
Mermelstein's case did not even last through the first day of the hearings.
Would you care to be specific, or is this another baseless statement like
the "Anne Frank Diary" denial story?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 616 Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 20:47 EST
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka) Continued
Lanzmann: So a train arrived. I'd like you to describe in detail the whole
process during the peak period.
Suchomel: The trains left Malkinia station for Treblinka station. It was about
six miles. Treblinka was a village. A small village. As a station, it gained
in importance because of the transport of Jews. Thirty to fifty cars would
arrive. They were divided into sections of ten or twelve or fifteen cars and
shunted into Treblinka Camp and brought to the ramp. The other cars waited,
loaded with people, in the Treblinka station. The windows were closed off with
barbed wire so no one could get out. On the roofs were the "hellhounds," the
Ukrainians or Latvians. The Latvians were the worst. On the ramp, for each
car, there stood two Jews from the Blue Squad to speed things up. They said:
"Get out, get out. Hurry, hurry!" There were also Ukrainians and Germans.
Lanzmann: How many Germans?
Suchomel: From three to five.
Lanzmann: No more?
Suchomel: No more. I can assure you.
Lanzmann: How many Ukrainians?
Suchomel: Ten.
Lanzmann: Ten Ukrainians, five Germans. Two, that is, twenty people from the
Blue Squad.
Suchomel: Men from the Blue Squad were here, and here they sent the people
inside. The Red Squad was here.
Lanzmann: What was the Red Squad's job?
Suchomel: The clothes! To carry the clothes taken off by the men and by the
women up here immediately.
Lanzmann: How long was it between the unloading at the ramp and the
undressing, how many minutes?
Suchomel: For the women let's say an hour in all. An hour, an hour and a half.
A whole train took two hours. In two hours it was all over.
Lanzmann: Between the time of arrival . . .
Suchomel: and death . . .
Lanzmann: . . . it war all over in two hours?
Suchomel: Two hours, two and a half hours, three hours.
Lanzmann: A whole train?
Suchomel: Yes, a whole train.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 617 Fri Apr 03, 1992
AH.STEIN at 20:47 EST
576 Raven:
> I have lost count of how many times you have depended on the
Franke-Gricksch Resettlement Action Report ...
Which reminds me: What is the basis for your undercount (by 5,400,000) of
the number of Jews killed by the Nazis? Is it simply that you lost count
there as well?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 618 Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 20:48 EST
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka) Continued
Lanzmann: And for only one section, for ten cars, how long?
Suchomel: I can't calculate that, because the sections came one after another
and people flooded in constantly, understand? Usually, the men waiting who sat
there, or there, were sent straight up via the "funnel." The women were sent
last. At the end. They had to go up there too, and often waited here. Five at
a time. Fifty people -- sixty women with children. They had to wait here until
there was room here. Naked! In summer and winter.
Lanzmann: Winter in Treblinka can be very cold.
Suchomel: Well, in winter, in December, anyway after Christmas. But even
before Christmas it was cold as hell. Between fifteen and minus four. I know:
at first it was cold as hell for us too. We didn't have suitable uniforms.
Lanzmann: But it was colder. . .
Suchomel: . . . for those poor people . . .
Lanzmann: . . . in the "funnel."
Suchomel: In the "funnel" it was very, very cold.
Lanzmann: Can you describe this "funnel" precisely? What was it like? How
wide? How was it for the people in this 'funnel"?
Suchomel: It was about thirteen feet wide, as wide as this room. On each side
were palisades this high . . . or this high.
Lanzmann: Walls?
Suchomel: No, barbed wire. Woven into the barbed wire were branches of pine
trees. You understand? It was known as "camouflage." There was a Camouflage
Squad of twenty Jews. They brought in new branches every day from the woods.
So everything was screened. People couldn't see anything to the left or right.
Nothing. You couldn't see through it. Impossible.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 619 Fri Apr 03, 1992
AH.STEIN at 20:48 EST
579 Raven:
> Although I am sure that you wished ... as I did ... that your recent
actions to make this discussion more civilized would not be needed,...
Any "discussion" where one party denies the murder of six million Jews by
the Nazis is inherently uncivilized.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 620 Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 20:48 EST
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka) Continued
Lanzmann: Treblinka, where so many people were exterminated, wasn't big, was
it?
Suchomel: It wasn't big. Sixteen hundred feet at the widest point. It wasn't a
rectangle, more like a rhomboid. You must realize that here the ground was
flat, and here it began to rise. And at the top of the slope was the gas
chamber. You had to climb up to it.
Lanzmann: The "funnel" was called the "Road to Heaven," wasn't it?
Suchomel: The Jews called it the "Ascension," also the "Last Road." I only
heard those two names for it.
Lanzmann: I need to see it. The people go into the "funnel." Then what
happens? They are totally naked?
Suchomel: Totally naked. Here stood two Ukrainian guards. Mainly for the men.
If the men wouldn't go in, they were beaten with whips. The men were "driven"
along. Not the women. They weren't beaten.
Lanzmann: Why such humanity?
Suchomel: I didn't see it. Maybe they were beaten too.
Lanzmann: Why not? They were about to die anyway.
Suchomel: At the entrance to the gas chambers, undoubtedly. In the "funnel,"
the women had to wait. They heard the motors of the gas chambers. Maybe they
also heard people screaming and imploring. As they waited, "death panic"
overwhelmed them. "Death panic" makes people let go. They empty themselves,
from the front or the rear. So often, where the women stood, there were five
or six rows of excrement.
Lanzmann: They stood?
Suchomel: They could squat or do it standing. I didn't see them do it, I only
saw the feces.
Lanzmann: Only women?
Suchomel: Not the men, only the women. The men were chased through the
"funnel." The women had to wait until a gas chamber was empty.
Lanzmann: And the men?
Suchomel: No, they were whipped in first. You understand? They always went
first.
Lanzmann: They didn't have to wait?
Suchomel: They weren't given time to wait, no.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 621 Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 20:49 EST
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka) Continued
Lanzmann: And this "death panic"?
Suchomel: When this "death panic" sets in, one lets go. It's well known when
someone's terrified, and knows he's.about to die; it can happen in bed. My
mother was kneeling by her bed ...
Lanzmann: Your mother?
Suchomel: Yes. Then there was a big pile. That's a fact. It's been medically
proved. Since you wanted to know: as soon as they were unloaded, if they'd
been loaded in Warsaw, or elsewhere, they'd already been beaten. Beaten hard,
worse than in Treblinka, I can assure you. Then during the train journey,
standing in the cars, no toilets, nothing, hardly any water--fear. Then the
doors opened and it started again:
"Bremze, bremze!" "Czipsze, czipsze!"
I can't pronounce it, I have false teeth. It's Polish: Bremze or czipsze.
Lanzmann: What does bremze mean?
Suchomel: It's a Ukrainian word. It means "faster." Again the chase. A hail of
whiplashes. The SS man Kuettner's whip was this long. Women to the left, men
to the right. And always more blows. No respite. Go in there, strip. Hurry,
hurry! Always running.
Lanzmann: Running and screaming.
Suchomel: That's how they were finished off.
Lanzmann: That was the technique?
Suchomel: Yes, the technique. You must remember, it had to go fast. And the
Blue Squad also had the task of leading the sick and the aged to the
"infirmary," so as not to delay the flow of people to the gas chambers. Old
people would have slowed it down. Assignment to the "infirmary" was decided by
Germans. The Jews of the Blue Squad only implemented the decision, leading the
people there, or carrying them on stretchers. Old women, sick children,
children whose mother was sick, or whose grandmother was very old, were sent
along with the grandma, because she didn't know about the "infirmary." It had
a white flag with a red cross. A passage led to it. Until they reached the
end, they saw nothing. Then they'd see the dead in the pit. They were forced
to strip, to sit on a sandbank, and were killed with a shot in the neck. They
fell into the pit. There was always a fire in the pit. With rubbish, paper and
gasoline, people burn very well.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 622 Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 20:50 EST
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka) Continued
Suchomel: .... in, say, January, February, March, hardly any trains arrived.
Lanzmann: Was Treblinka glum without the trains?
Suchomel: I wouldn't say the Jews were glum. They became so when they realized
. . . I'll come to that later; it's a story in itself. The Jews, those in the
work squads, thought at first that they'd survive. But in January, when they
stopped receiving food, for Wirth had decreed that there were too many of them
... There were a good five to six hundred of them in Camp 1.
Lanzmann: Up there?
Suchomel: Yes. To keep them from rebelling, they weren't shot or gassed, but
starved. Then an epidemic broke out, a kind of typhus. The Jews stopped
believing they'd make it. They were left to die. They dropped like flies. It
was all over. They'd stopped believing. It was all very well to say I... we...
kept on insisting: "You're going to live!" We almost believed it ourselves. If
you lie enough, you believe your own lies. Yes. But they replied to me: "No,
chief, we're just reprieved corpses."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 623 Fri Apr 03, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton] at 21:37 EST
[one message moved to topic 4, one moved to topic 7]
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 626 Sat Apr 04, 1992
C.MAIER [Claire] at 01:02 EST
In the discussion of the boiling point of HCN, no one has mentioned that all
volatile liquids exist in equilibrium with their gaseous phase. I won't go
into great chemical details here, but an analogy could be used with water
vapor. Even though the boiling point of water is 212 degrees F., much higher
than even the hottest summer day, there is always some water vapor present in
the air--this is the humidity. This water vapor is stable in its gaseous
state, and as long as the temperature doesn't drop, it will not condense (warm
air can hold more of the gaseous phase of a volatile liquid than cold air).
So for HCN, since its boiling point is so much lower than water, a much
greater concentration would be able to remain in a gaseous state than for
water, even on cold days. Since the concentration needed to kill humans is so
low, it's quite possible that there wouldn't be appreciable condensation on
the walls.
Also, a control sample of anything, by definition, is one believed to be
UNAFFECTED by whatever is being tested for. So a sample taken from a
delousing chamber to test for cyanide cannot be a control sample.
Removing the clothing and washing the skin of a person who has INHALED
cyanide will not help them; nor will it help remove cyanide from the body of a
person who has absorbed cyanide from any source (skin exposure, inhalation, or
ingestion). The treatment for cyanide poisoning today includes administering
nitrites (inhalation and IV) followed by thiosulfate IV.
PoohBah,
There has been a great deal of discussion about Faurisson. However, I am a
bit confused. Exactly how did he get into trouble in France? What were the
charges against him? What was his exact punishment (if that is the right word
for the loss of his position, etc)? I am probably not asking everything I
want to know because I am fuzzy on the details of this affair, so maybe a
general "Faurisson overview" would be helpful for those like myself who have
gotten lost in all the discussion surrounding him. Thanks.
Also, I have noticed that there hasn't been much mention of documents
produced by Adolph Hitler during the war and shortly before it. What
documents are available? Did he have diaries, orders to troups, speeches,
etc.? I think this is important in establishing beyond a doubt the veracity
of the Holocaust--to get things from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Could we
spend some time reading and discussing documents from Hitler himself?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 627 Sat Apr 04, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14 at 05:52 EST
Claire:
I could be wrong, and I'll depend on Pooh-Bah to tell me if I am, of course,
but one would tend to think that the demon Hitler wasn't so involved in day-to-
day administrative details, given: a.) the fact that he was head of state;
and b.) the huge and byzantine administrative appartus that carried out the
crimes.
Dave
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 628 Sat Apr 04, 1992
POOH.BAH at 06:16 EST
Claire (and Dave ): RE: Hitler. I have already u/l'ed the order signed by
him for the euthanasia program. We do have other documents in which he signed
to indicate that he had read them (I'll u/l some of those because they
indicate that Hitler knew that great numbers of Jews were being killed). We,
of course, have numerous speeches, two books that he wrote (Mein Kampf and a
second book which he never had published) and the conversations he had after
meals which were taken down in shorthand and transcribed. We also have his
"last testament" which he wrote from the bunker shortly before he took his own
life.
Dave is correct, though, in that we don't have many orders that bear his
signature.
I will type up some of information that we do have and u/l it here. I will do
the same with the Faurisson material.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 629 Sat Apr 04, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton] at 07:51 EST
[3 messages deleted for being off-topic or personal attacks]
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 630 Sat Apr 04, 1992
J.STENGEL [John] at 11:19 EST
---->G.RAVEN Message 475
>To John Stengel (regarding 317) ---
> Lets assume the Governor cuts the Warden's budget ... (and etc.)
>.
>These paragraphs seem to be nothing more than a figment of your
>imagination. Am I supposed to respond to them?
.
You correctly discerned that these paragraphs were a figment of my
imagination; my attempt at "black humor" (at the expense of Mr. Leuchter), did
have a point I was trying to illustrate. The point was (and is) that while
HCN will kill instantly at very high levels of concentration, it will kill
(just as dead) at far lower levels of concentration given longer exposure
time. The point is relevant and important to this discussion.
.
There has been some discussion on this topic as to design of gas chambers.
It seems to me that the optimal design of the HCN gas chamber is contingent
on how quickly it is desired to kill the victim. If it is desired that the
victims be killed "instantly" (as in the Missouri gas chamber), then the
chamber must be of a highly sophisticated design utilizing hermetic seals and
rapid ventilating systems. The door seals and ventilation system are needed
in the "instant" death chamber because of the extremely high gas concentration
necessary to bring on instananeous death. If, however, he has no particular
concern for the human dignity of the condemned (i.e. any concern for his
prolonged agony); the gas chamber designer can be quite sloppy about "door
seals" and "ventilation systems". He (the designer) simply specifies that
the "chamber" be used at low gas concentration for long time periods. Low gas
concentration means less danger from seal leaks, short ventilation time, low
risk from breathing a few breaths. Such a chamber is lethal only to those
locked in it for an extended period of time.. say 15 to 30 minutes. I direct
your attention to your post:
.
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] Message 489:
.
>By contrast, the stories about the homicidal gassings almost all
>say that the people are herded in, the gas is introduced into the
>room, fifteen minutes later the screaming stops, the doors to the
>"gas chamber" are thrown open, and the bodies dragged out, sometimes
>by workers who are smoking and eating, and have no protective clothing
>or respirators!
.
If it took fifteen minutes ("fifteen minutes later the screaming stops"),
then the gas concentration in the chamber was relatively low. With minimal
ventilation, the workers starting to remove the bodies with "no protective
clothing or respirators" poses no particular technical problem.
.
There is an inherent "conflict of interest" in utilizing a man like Fred
Leuchter to pass judgement on the mass death gas chambers of the camps.
Leuchter is a "craftsman of death", an "artist" if you will; analagous to to
the old pre-industrial age guild craftsmen of Europe. I am sure Mr. Leuchter
takes great professional pride in his work...the condemned gets truly
"personal service" from Mr. Leuchter. When the industrial revolution started
turning out cheap mass produced goods, the old guild craftsmen probably
sneered at the quality of those mass produced goods; perhaps they even
pronounced them unworkable or whatever. Like our modern Mr.Leuchter, their
professional pride was highly offended... here were some sloppy upstarts
cranking out an inferior product; certainly produced without the loving care
and pride with which they turned out their product! Fred Leuchter cannot help
but be "alienated" by the idea of mass produced executions.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 631 Sat Apr 04, 1992
J.STENGEL [John] at 11:21 EST
------>G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] Message 486
>As previously posted by me, once the ambient temperature drops below
>78.3 degrees F, condensation begins to take place. Any porous surface
>(skin, walls, clothing, wood, etc.) that comes in contact with the
>condensate will absorb it to some extent. The walls of the Missouri
>gas chamber are (were) steel with a sealing coat of paint over it
>(modern gas chambers use epoxy). The walls of the so-called gas
>chambers in Auschwitz were no so protected, so they would have
>absorbed HCN condensate.
.
If HCN condenses below 78.3 degrees F, then it EVAPORATES above 78.3
degrees F. After 45 years, it would be a miracle if any crystaline HCN was
still on the walls; pourous or not pourous. We must assume that any HCN
condensed on the walls would have re-evaporated each time (during the 45+
years since the chamber was last used) the temperature reached above 78.3 F.
It simply evaporated and is "gone with the wind"! The only possible thing to
look for would be other cyanide compounds which would have a higher
evaporation point.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 635 Sat Apr 04, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 18:10 EST
John Stengel
>>If HCN condenses below 78.3 degrees F, then it EVAPORATES
>>above 78.3 degrees F. After 45 years, it would be a
>>miracle if any crystaline HCN was still on the walls;
>>pourous or not pourous. We must assume that any HCN
>>condensed on the walls would have re-evaporated each time
>>(during the 45+ years since the chamber was last used) the
>>temperature reached above 78.3 F. It simply evaporated
>>and is "gone with the wind"! The only possible thing to
>>look for would be other cyanide compounds which would have
>>a higher evaporation point.
The residues for which chemical tests were done were not HCN.
It is sufficiently volatile that none would remain, especially
after 45 years. In the same way that HCl (hydrogen chloride)
dissolved in water creates hydrochloric acid, also with the
formula HCl, a solution of HCN in water is hydrocyanic acid,
which reacts quite vigorously with materials found in concrete
and mortar to form relatively stable salts of the cyanide
radical (CN). The reason for tests in the delousing chambers
was to investigate the stability of the residues over time. An
execution chamber is guaranteed to contain water vapour from
the victims and consequently it is a quite reasonable
expectation to find CN salts present in the mortar and other
construction materials. If these are wholly absent or only in
trace amounts then the conclusion to be drawn is that these
particular cement blocks or mortar were never exposed to
hydrocyanic acid.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 636 Sat Apr 04, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:03 EST
635 Hans-Peter:
> An execution chamber is guaranteed to contain water vapour from
> the victims and consequently it is a quite reasonable
> expectation to find CN salts present in the mortar and other
> construction materials. If these are wholly absent or only in
> trace amounts then the conclusion to be drawn is that these
> particular cement blocks or mortar were never exposed to
> hydrocyanic acid.
The above has some problems with it. First, the reason to test a control
sample (i.e. a sample of the same material that is not expected to show any
CN salts) is to verify that there is not some other reason for traces of
hydrocyanic compounds. Leuchter, unfortunately, did not do this. Fortunately,
though, the Krakow Institute of Forensic Expertise DID take such a control
sample. That control sample was totally negative (i.e. no trace) and yet they
did find traces in the gas chambers. From this, then, it is not logical to
conclude that the bricks and mortar from the gas chambers "were never exposed
to hydrocyanic acid" and, in fact, NONE of the reports concludes such (even
Leuchter's).
Second, it would not be a "reasonable expectation" to find hydrocyanic
compounds present. Even though these compounds are MORE stable, there is no
reason to expect them to still be present 43 years later. The Krakow report
even addresses this very issue:
"It [HCN] has an aciduious character and produces salts called cyanides when
contacting with metals. Salts of alcalic metals such as natrium and calcium,
are dissolvable in water.
"HCN is a very poor acid and therefore its salts easily disperse if mixed
with stronger acids. Such an acid is carbonic acid which emanates through the
reaction of bicarbon oxide and water. Cyanides are more easily dissolved by
stronger acids like sulfuric acid. Much more durable are those complex
compounds of cyanic ions amalgamating with heavy metals. Such one is the
aforementioned Prussian Blue, but even it dissolves slowly in an aciduious
environment.
"Under such circumstances it was a vain hope that after 45 years cyanide acid
compounds could be found preserved in building material (plaster, brick) if
exposed to the action of atmospheric forces such as aciduious rains and
aciduious oxygenes, especially those of sulfurous and nitrogenous complexion.
A better chance had the analysis of plaster taken from safe places, prtected
from the action of precipitation (including aciduous rains)."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 637 Sat Apr 04, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:04 EST
635 Hans-Peter:
> The reason for tests in the delousing chambers was to investigate the
> stability of the residues over time.
This statement would be reasonable IF the delousing chamber had been exposed
to the same environmental forces as had the gas chambers. However, since the
delousing chamber was left intact and the gas chambers had been destroyed and
left exposed to the elements, testing of the samples from the delousing
chamber would not logically produce the above conclusion.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 642 Sat Apr 04, 1992
J.STENGEL [John] at 23:27 EST
Ref: C.MAIER [Claire] Message 626
.
>In the discussion of the boiling point of HCN, no one has mentioned
>that all volatile liquids exist in equilibrium with their gaseous phase.
>I won't go into great chemical details here, but an analogy could be
>used with water vapor. Even though the boiling point of water is 212
>degrees F., much higher than even the hottest summer day, there is
>always some water vapor present in the air--this is the humidity.
>This water vapor is stable in its gaseous state, and as long as the
>temperature doesn't drop, it will not condense (warm air can hold
>more of the gaseous phase of a volatile liquid than cold air). So
>for HCN, since its boiling point is so much lower than water, a much
>greater concentration would be able to remain in a gaseous state than
>for water, even on cold days. Since the concentration needed to
>kill humans is so low, it's quite possible that there wouldn't be
>appreciable condensation on the walls.
.
Claire points out a very important fact here which supports the hypothesis
of low HCN concentration gas chambers. Claire's point also answers Greg
Raven's objections in his post:
.
>G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] Message 467
.
>Auschwitz lies just above the 50th parallel, or roughly as close to
>the North Pole as Winnipeg, Canada. In the summer, it may reach 25.7
>degrees (78.3 F), but unless everything is at that temperature or
>above, HCN will condense. This means that for most of the year (and
>probably much of the day, even in the summer) the "gas chambers"
>would have had to be heated. Are there any heaters in the "gas
>chambers"? Answer: No.
.
>But let's take as a hypothesis that these efficient Germans found
>some way to heat these rooms on cool or cold days so they could carry
>out the executions without pause. What happens when you start to
>ventilate a warm room with cool (or cold) air? You get condensation.
>You get pockets of highly concentrated HCN gas. In some instances,
>you get concentrations high enough (over 6 percent) to become
>explosive...
.
The maximum "saturation" point of water vapor in (air at 1 atm) at 70
degrees F (21 deg C) is approximately 19 grams/m^3... at 60 degrees F (15.5
Deg C), the saturation point is about 15 grams/m^3; this means that if air
with a relative humidity of 99.9% at 70 degrees F is subjected to a
temperature drop of 10 degrees, about 4 grams of water per cubic meter of air
will condense out. Compare these concentrations 15 and 20 grams/m^3 with the
reported lethal HCN concentration of 300 milligrams/m^3. The dimensions of
the Missouri gas chamber were cited uptopic; also reported was the amount of
HCN used in that gas chamber ...it translated to approximately 34
grams/m^3...obviously the "saturation" point of HCN in air is much higher than
for water vapor. Indeed, considering the lethality of HCN (at low
concentration) combined with the high saturation point and low boiling
temperature of HCN; one could probably use a deep freezer room as a gas
chamber! Even then there would probably not be appreciable HCN condensation!
No Raven, there was no need for heaters and no need to worry about (HCN
condensation) when ventilating the chamber with cool air.
.
---> POOH.BAH Message 443
>Report to Reichsfuehrer SS Heinrich Himmler
> From Alfred Franke-Gricksch
> 14-16 May 1943
.
>... When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room
>the doors are shut,....As soon as the containers touch the base of the
>pillars, they release particular substances that put the people to sleep
>in one minute...
.
>...(Because fresh corpses burn particularly well, only
>50-100 lbs. of coke are needed for the whole process.)
.
I am somewhat skeptical as to the authenticity of this document (or at
least as to the accuracy of translation):
.
1. Because of the "one minute"; this contradicts the more abundant
accounts of 10 minutes to 30 minutes.
.
2. Because 50-100 lbs of coke does not sound like quite enough fuel to
cremate 300-400 corpses.
.
3. Why would Franke-Gricksch (who is presumably German, not British or
American) refer to lbs. (pounds) of coke rather than kilograms? The Germans,
like all of Continental Europe, use (and used in 1943) the Metric System of
weights and measures...why would he (Franke-Gricksch) suddenly use the British
system in correspondence with Himmler?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 643 Sun Apr 05, 1992
B.EATON2 [BZE] at 01:30 EST
To Raven
Again, the burden of proof IS yours. There are documents, not just the ones
quoted here, but masses of evidence that have been used to back up those who
say that approximately 6 million Jews, and many others, died as a direct
result of Nazi intentions to kill off those they considered inferior,
worthless, etc. It is you who insist that all of this evidence is wrong,
misguided, misleading, deliberate lies, etc. You tell us on what factual
grounds you make those assumptions.
On what grounds do you call the recollections of American soldiers at Dachau
'wrong?' Were you there? How do you know what they saw and heard?
As one who was alive and vitally interested in what was happening in Germany
in the late '30's and '40's, let me tell you that very little was known about
concentration camps except that such places existed for Jews and others who
were out of favor with the Nazis. No one could conceive of the horrors that
took place there until the war was over and rescuers and survivors could tell
their stories. Captured documents, such as the ones Pooh.Bah and Termy have
posted, also made clear the almost unbelievable inhumanity practiced in the
20th Century by those who could plan and carry out the destruction of men,
women, and children for no other crime than that they were not true 'aryans,'
a term which scientifically means nothing.
Every document shows the true extent of their 'solution to the Jewish
Problem,' the extinction of every Jew who was unfortunate enough to fall into
their hands.
In re message 484 you deny making the statement that '50,000' Jews remain in
Berlin. Either you or Rungu did make that statement. I remember it
particularly because I was recently in Berlin and was told that 10,000 Jews
remain in Germany. I did not question you because I'm not sure of the
correctness of either number. One of you, however did say it.
Please document which of FDR's advisors were 'bloodthirsty Zionists.'
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 644 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:03 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 506) ---
> Diesel engines were used for the gas chambers at the camps that
employed CO as the killing agents but it was gasoline engines
primarily that were used by the gas vans and, therefore, at Kulmhof
(Chelmno).
.
Could you please supply a reference for this statement?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 645 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:04 EDT
To Termy (regarding 507) ---
With the exception of the Tauber verdict, which is neither here nor
there, you seem to have made reference to documents concerned with
the Einsatzgruppen. I have already agreed that there were some
atrocities there. However, there were mitigating factors (such as the
guerrilla-style warfare taking place in these regions), and the short
existence of the Einsatzgruppen hardly translates into a program of
genocide. Please refer again to my message 169.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 646 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:04 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 508) ---
> Therefore, because these numbers fluctuated, so must the divisor.
.
My question is why there is a divisor in the first place! If the
number is wrong, it is simply wrong, and no divisor is going to make
it correct. In other words, this new method of Pressac's seems flawed
to me in that he tries to apply "corrections" to numbers he doesn't
like, as if to somehow make them okay, or to validate the rest of the
report from which these erroneous numbers are taken.
---
Let me expand on this: let's say that in a report that has numbers
that need to be "corrected" with a divisor of two or three there are
non-numerical claims, such, "The Nazis would often machine-gun groups
of midgets to death," or, "The Nazis used a portable, pedal-operated
brain-bashing machine," or, "The Nazis used atomic devices to
obliterate Jews," etc. How in the world can you apply a divisor to a
statement such as these and make them "correct?"
---
I stand by my statement that Pressac's methods are suspect.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 647 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:05 EDT
To Termy (regarding 509) ---
> Proper scientific method calls for the taking of a control sample
which is not suspected or known to be contaminated with the
contaminant being tested for.
.
I understand your point. However, I will say once again that the
non-control samples obtain by Mr. Leuchter, when analyzed, were
positive, but at a level that was "very close to the detection
level." (Leuchter Report)
.
Let's say that Mr. Leuchter had taken a sample from some area somehow
known to never have been subjected to HCN. It would have tested out
at zero, because unlike radiation, I imagine there is precious little
naturally-occurring atmospheric HCN.
.
Now with his zero-result "control" sample, he would have compared
them against the other samples, and seen that there was not much
difference. However, he would not have known for sure what the upper
limit of a positive sample might be. Only by taking a incontestably
positive sample could he gauge into what range samples should fall.
---
To put it another way, if he took a "clean" control sample and it was
virtually identical to that of the supposedly contaminated samples
from the "gas chambers," that would have indicated that the rooms
tested were never used as "gas chambers," but it would not have shown
what a test from a real gas chamber looked like.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 648 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:05 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 510) ---
Let's go back to the original post, shall we? I posted:
> Here are a few examples, with pages number references for any who
can locate a copy of this illusive tome:
> There are six photos that show humane conditions at
Auschwitz-Monowitz. (pages 506-507) (These are from the Duerrfeld
file of Nuremberg trial number 6)
---
You posted:
> Apparently you are unfamiliar with the standard convention, then,
of putting your own comments in brackets []. This is used throughout
the board here and is used in most publications to designate editor's
comments (as opposed to the author's own parenthetical comments).
.
Can I take this to mean that you thought I was QUOTING Pressac in my
915? With page numbers? With parenthetical comments similar to those
in other examples (this was the last of many examples)? Please,
Pooh.bah, stop getting all worked up over your perceptions of the
form of my postings and deal with the content.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 649 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:05 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 511) ---
> Gee, it seems as though, once again, you are in error [about
temperatures at Auschwitz].
.
Are you proposing that by mentioning the temperature on a couple days
during the summer that we can extrapolate to the rest of the year and
come to the conclusion that the Auschwitz area has temperatures more
suited to the equator than the 50th parallel? If you could take a
moment and read my posting 466 (which you excerpted but apparently
did not read), you will see that I grant the possibility that during
the summer it may be warm enough.
.
However, it can scarcely be that temperature all day, even during the
summer, and I'm sure during the spring, fall, and winter the
temperature also drops. From the CIA World Factbook, 1991, we find:
"Climate: temperate with cold, cloudy, moderately severe winters with
frequent precipitation; mild summers with frequent showers and
thundershowers"
.
From the New Family Encyclopedia we find:
"The oceanic climate of Western Europe and the continental climate of
the Russian plains overlap in Poland. Rainfall is moderate, about 20
inches annually, in most of the country except for the southern
mountainous regions where humidity is higher and rainfall heavier.
Summers are fairly cool, averaging about 60 degrees F, and winters
can be rather cold, as in the northern United States or southern
Canada."
.
I know, I know ... these are more contemporary sources. However, I'll
bet that the climate hasn't changed that much in the last 50 years.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 650 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:06 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 514) ---
> You missed the point, Raven. Next time I won't be so subtle.
Armontrout describes on page 354 the Missouri gas chamber and its
operations. He includes in this description such things as the guards
vacating their watchtower positions when the gas is vented. However,
Armontrout has never been at the Missouri prison when the gas chamber
was used.
.
Could you please supply some evidence that Missouri never conducted
any tests or test-runs of their execution gas chamber to ensure its
functionality? If they did, then it is more than likely that he knows
what he is talking about. To put it another way, you are essentially
saying that Armontrout perjured himself. Are you sure you don't want
to reconsider?
---
> BTW, thank you for bringing up the footnote. Leuchter testified (in
his futile attempt to qualify as an expert witness) that he had
designed the new gas chamber at Missouri. That was in the 1988
Zuendel trial and yet, in 1989 (one year later), the execution in
Missouri was performed by lethal injection. Hmmm.....
.
Anybody who understands English knows that designing something is
different that constructing it. Leuchter did not claim to have
constructed the gas chamber, did he? What's the problem here?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 651 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:06 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 518) ---
> It [the Franke-Gricksch Resettlement Action Report Pooh.bah claims
to have reviewed] is a carbon copy of the original (as I have
previously stated). It can be found in the document center in Berlin.
The carbon copy I reviewed has none of the errors that you have
previously mentioned (which I found amazing since you cited no source
for those errors and, yet, you have admitted to not knowing
German....how did you do that?). What further description would you
like?
.
Just some of the basics. How many pages was it? Was it single-spaced
or double-spaced? Was it signed or initialed, and on what pages were
these signatures or initials (for example, only the first page, only
the last page, each page initialed, etc.)?
.
Of course, if you have a document number on it, or anything else,
that would be marvelous.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 652 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:07 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 519) ---
> When discussing a particular event that occurred at a particular
time, the relevant documents are the contemporary ones from which I
quoted. Those instructions [from DuPont] do not include the washing
of skin and, therefore, that wouldn't have been done or believed to
have been necessary during the Holocaust.
.
During the Holocaust? What is that phrase doing at the end of the
sentence? If you want a contemporary document, howza bout a little
bit of the Zyklon B manual from DEGESCH, which under the heading
"Toxicity," says:
"The poison can enter the body in three ways: through the mouth, the
respiratory organs, or the pores of the skin."
Apparently, they knew plenty about HCN ... even back then.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 653 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:07 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 520) ---
> "Once I was slightly gassed because the mask I was wearing was not
fully gas- tight. I felt nothing at the time but two hours afterward
I had a bad headache, a pain in the meninges and a burning pain in
the lungs. At first I did not go to the KB [hospital] but went out of
the block into the birch alley to breath deeply while doing knee
bends. The headache went away fairly quickly, but when I coughed a
little blood came up. Doctor Wasilewski diagnosed inflammation and
dehydration of the throat. After being hospitalized, I was cured in
two month...."
> The diagnosis was NOT gas poisoning.
.
Let's look further at the Zyklon B manual from DEGESCH, under the
heading, "Poisoning and Antidotes":
"The first stage of poisoning manifests itself in increasing local
irritation of the mucous membrane of eyes, throat or upper
respiratory tract, burning sensation on the tongue, peculiar metallic
and irritant taste in the mouth. The exhaled breath smells of
hydrocyanic acid; there is a sensation of pressure in the forehead,
general oppression, giddiness, disturbed equilibrium, stabbing pains
in the head, nausea, vomiting, tenesmus. Respiration quickens at
first and deepens later on; it is accompanied by a rush of blood to
the head and palpitation of the heart.
"There follows an asthmatic stage, convulsive in character, and,
finally, an asphyctic stage. Death takes place if the patient cannot
be treated in time.
"If the quantity of gas is very small, the body itself can convert it
into harmless compounds. So far no clear case of chronic poisoning is
on record.
"As soon as the first stage of poisoning is observed, the most
important thing is to remove the patient from the gas infected area
into fresh air, away from all traces of gas. Moreover, the
respiration and heart action must be stimulated to the greatest
possible extent in order to accelerate conversion of the gas. ..."
.
There seems to be a pretty fair correlation between what Rablin
described and the method in the DEGESCH manual.
.
This point directly goes to your point about why some witnesses are
believed over others: when the witness' statements correspond to the
possible instead of to the impossible, the witness becomes more
valuable.
---
However, the REAL question is why the Germans had a doctor look at
someone, and why they allowed a two-month recovering period? I
thought this was supposed to be a death camp!
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 654 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:08 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 522) ---
> This is really funny! Thank you for giving me such a good laugh!
Leuchter was an "eyewitness" to the proceedings which were
transcribed word for word. Yet you somehow now want us to discard
that transcription and prefer to base your conclusions on the MEMORY
of Leuchter? Cut it out....my sides are hurting!!!!
.
If you have a word-for-word copy of the transcript, you must have one
of the later, CORRECTED versions. To give one example, your copy must
have the correction on page 807 of volume 5, where the Judge uses the
word "kook" in reference to Mr. Zuendel.
---
Of course, even if you do, that kinda blows your "word for word"
claim out of the water, because this reference was not in the
transcript originally. Only after Doug Christie bring the error to
light was the transcript corrected.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 655 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:08 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 524) ---
> Please cite your sources for this. [the time and procedure for
using Zyklon B for disinfecting a barracks, etc.]
.
From the DEGESCH Zyklon B book, under the heading, "Ventilation":
"During this operation gas-masks must be worn. The ventilation takes
place in the reverse direction to the gassing. All windows near the
entrance are opened first, then gradually those in the rest of the
building. It is advisable to work only for 10 to 15 minutes at a time
and then to make interruptions of half an hour, as a precaution
against skin poisoning.
"Depending on concentration, outdoor temperature and weather
conditions, ventilation will take at least 10 hours. Its duration
also depends on the type of building, number, size, and situation of
windows and other apertures. ..."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 656 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:09 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 525) ---
> You forgot one very important step in your review of most accounts
- the ventilation system was turned on! That should be placed in the
above between "the screaming stops" and "the doors to the 'gas
chamber' are thrown open."
.
And you forgot one very important fact: these so-called gas chambers
either had no ventilation fans, or they were not adequate for the
purpose (per the Leuchter Report). Could you cite some of the
eyewitness accounts that mention the ventilation fans ... preferably
one account for each of the so-called killing areas?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 657 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:09 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 531) ---
Could you please supply references for your repeated contentions that
the bodies of inmates at Auschwitz burn differently than other
bodies?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 658 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:09 EDT
To Carl Fink (regarding 559) ---
> Raven, your 462 - I haven't done any inorganic chemistry in a
while, but can you document your claim that the Germans used CO as a
fuel for engines? This strikes me as insane - the energy release is
very low, and making CO wastes lots of energy for no reason.
.
I read about these CO busses and saw the picture within the last two
months, but I cannot remember where at this moment. If I come across
the reference, I will try to remember to post it for you. I will
point out, however, that Germany was in a world of hurt for fuel,
rubber, oil, and other petroleum by-products, so they were looking at
all kinds of ways to keep things running. I know it sounds wacky to
burn wood in the back of a bus to provide "fuel," but apparently it
worked to some extent.
---
> Raven, your 491: admitting that Weber is an expert is not admitting
that he is correct.
.
I believe you will find that M.Rungu posted 491, unless I am
misunderstanding and you wish to address some question to me.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 659 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:10 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 585) ---
> Both you and Raven have made the statement that the Holocaust is
the ONE single area of history which is the MOST rife with historical
error.
.
Could you please cite my posting in which I made this claim so I can
better address this issue?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 660 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:10 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 587) ---
> For instance, I could point out that yesterday, there was a radio
talk show in which Bradley Smith appeared for 50 minutes and Rabbi
Marvin Hier from the Simon Wiesenthal Center was permitted a 10
minute rebuttal.
.
Are you sure that this is the way this event really happened? I know
that Bradley Smith is always willing to discuss face-to-face any
representative of the Holocaust establishment (even JDL
representative Michael Slomich!), and he has expressed regret that a
representative of the SWC will not discuss this matter with him. I
know there has been at least one instance in which the SWC
representative refused to be on the same show, and instead asked for
and received permission to deliver a 10-minute presentation at the
start of the show in lieu of a discussion with Smith.
.
If Rabbi Hier really wants to discuss the Holocaust story with Mr.
Smith, I will do everything in my power to help arrange it.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 661 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:11 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 593) ---
> Yet, you maintain that the post-war borders "did NOT
include lands that had originally contained a large number of Jews."
.
I call 300,000 people a large number, even if they are Jews.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 662 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:11 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 594) ---
> Your whole message assumes that once a Rumanian Jew, one didn't
necessarily remain a Rumanian Jew (i.e. through land ceded to another
country) and that no one new could BECOME a Rumanian Jew.
> Therefore, the figures you state become meaningless as proof of the
fallacy of Hilberg's figures.
.
I don't quite follow your logic, but I was not trying to "prove" the
fallacy of Hilberg's figures, but rather to show that there are still
questions remaining, even though Hilberg puts it all down in
black-and-white.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 663 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:11 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 595) ---
> Once again you are guilty of comparing apples and oranges. You
admit that the Hilberg data you discuss comes from the first edition
of his multi-volume set which he began writing in 1948 and was
published in the 1950's. You then compare this to a "recent article."
Better that you compare Hilberg's most recent edition (1985) to the
recent article.
.
Now you've gone and confused me. The first Hilberg book I have is but
a single-volume, copyright 1961. That's where I verified Termy's
numbers, and got others to go along with it. I then checked Hilberg's
1985 student edition, where he omits virtually all of the Romanian
population figures, but maintains the 270,000 figure for the number
of dead. There is no mention of 300,000 Romanians taking advantage of
the emigration offer.
---
If what you say is true about the 300,000 to 340,000 emigrants, then
what that means is that Hilberg "found" more live Jews to emigrate,
but was absolutely accurate about the death toll? Wow. That's
strikingly similar to the Auschwitz situation, where they used to
claim 4 million deaths and later reduced it to just over 1 million
deaths, saying that the number of Jewish dead remained the same but
the other casualties were much less. Why are Jews so easy to count
accurately when they are dead?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 664 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:12 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 596) ---
> I do agree with you, though, you have shown the difficulty of
accurately determining war-time demographics.
.
Amen (if it is appropriate for an atheist to say such a thing is this
forum!).
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 665 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:12 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 597) ---
> Raven, you have seen me state that I have respect for Mark Weber
yet disagree with his overall conclusions. ...
.
I believe someone else asked you that, not I.
---
> I've been asked by many WHY I respect Mark Weber. One of the
reasons I do is because there are some points on which we do agree.
Our opinion of Paul Rassinier being one of them.
> To quote from Lenski's book on Mark Weber's sworn testimony at the
Zuendel trial:
> "Christie [Zuendel's attorney] questioned Weber about Paul
Rassinier, the French revisionist pioneer on whom Harwood relied
heavily. Weber regretted Rassinier's shortcomings, but emphasized his
reliability about subjects of which he had first-hand knowledge, such
as the Buchenwald and Dora camps.
> Weber vigorously challenged the tendency of both Harwood and
Rassinier to overemphasize the alleged Jewish financial interest in
upholding the Holocaust story."
> I base my agreement with Weber on my reading of Rassinier's "The
Holocaust Story" and "The Lies of Ulysses."
.
In my post 573 I quote a passage from an article by Rassinier about
the Kremer diary. That passage goes on to state:
"This is what is called text and document criticism. It happens that
it is my professional specialty. I am therefore going to inflict upon
you, to my great regret, a course in 'text and document criticism.' I
ask you to pardon me for the strictness of the demonstration that I
am going to try to carry out in front of you."
.
If you meant what you said about Rassinier's "reliability about
subjects of which he had first-hand knowledge," then we are on firm
ground in examining what he had to say about the Kremer diary.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 666 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:13 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 598) ---
> It is curious that you have forgotten to mention the IHR suit
against Mermelstein for libel. That one didn't even last long enough
to go to a hearing!
.
Not so curious if you have been following along in the discussion.
You alleged that the IHR agreed to the judicial notice against them
in the first Mermelstein case when they signed the apology. This is
not true. To show that this is not true, I mentioned the latest
Mermelstein debacle, in which he and his lawyers attempted to run
that same argument past the judge. They got nowhere.
.
I realize there have been other court cases. Until you attempted to
change the subject, we were not talking about them.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 667 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:13 EDT
To Sheri Pierce (regarding 604) ---
> HA HA HA HA HA. Did you expect anyone to take such slipshod
reporting by you as a serious impugning of Hilberg?
.
Why have you adopted such an uncivil tone toward me? I wasn't
attempted to discredit Hilberg. Rather, I was attempting to point out
that European demographics for the period 1933 through 1945 present
enormous difficulties, and that to state that the matter is settled
because "Hilberg says so" is simplistic.
---
> You've demonstrated a complete absence of rational thought or
logic. Kremer said Auschwitz was an extermination camp (or in
Rassinier's stilted translation "the camp of the annihilation".
You're denying the obvious.
.
Ms. Pierce, do me a favor and take a deep breath. Relax for a moment.
Now, aren't you just the tiniest bit ashamed for attacking me like
this?
.
When you refer to "Rassinier's stilted translation," you may be
right. How would you translate "genannt das Lager der Vernichtung"?
Even with virtually no knowledge of German, I can tell that there are
the words "das" and "der" in the phrase, whereas the German for the
"traditional" translation would be something like "genannt
Vernichtungslager," yes? Wellers also omits the exclamation mark at
the end of the sentence, which makes Kremer seem callous and cold.
---
> An eminent French scholar named George Wellers analyzed the diary
entry and the surrounding documentation for Le Monde. He did ACTUAL
archives for the date of the entry and found that 1710 Dutch Jews
arrived that day of which 1594 went immediately to the gas chamber.
[from 352 et al]
.
According to the "traditional" Holocaust story, there is no accurate
count of the number of people "gassed." Therefore, it is interesting
that Wellers was able to make such an accurate determination of
something we've all be told was unknowable. Furthermore, it is
possible that the documents Wellers consulted were the "Calendar of
Events at Auschwitz," which were drawn up by the Communist
authorities in Poland. As Rassinier notes, "It is already strange
that a court in the western world thus shows confidence in a document
drawn up by Stalinists."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 668 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:14 EDT
To AH.STEIN (regarding 615 et al) ---
I don't want to exclude anyone from the discussion here, but with
possibly one or two exceptions, out of the many posts you have left
in these topics you have added nothing substantive, and you have
asked no questions other than those designed to goad or denigrate.
With all due respect, if you really wish to participate, I would ask
that you refrain from continuing in your present vein and offer some
kind of evidence, to demonstrate that you have some actual knowledge
about this matter and not just hostile emotions. If you cannot (or
will not) accede to this request, then you must agree that your
belief in the Holocaust story is baseless.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 669 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:14 EDT
To AH.STEIN (regarding 617) ---
> What is the basis for your undercount (by 5,400,000) of the number
of Jews killed by the Nazis?
.
I base my opinion on the work of demographers Carl Nordling and
Walter Sanning.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 670 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:15 EDT
To Claire Maier (regarding 626) ---
> In the discussion of the boiling point of HCN, no one has mentioned
that all volatile liquids exist in equilibrium with their gaseous
phase.
.
I was going to mention this after my conversation with Mr. Leuchter
the other day, because he brought it up as well. I just got lazy. I
believe, however, that even in its gaseous state, the HCN will bind
with the iron (and other heavy metal) ions to form the
ferric-ferro-cyanide compounds.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 671 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:15 EDT
To John Stengel (regarding 630) ---
> The point was (and is) that while HCN will kill instantly at very
high levels of concentration, it will kill (just as dead) at far
lower levels of concentration given longer exposure time. The point
is relevant and important to this discussion.
.
As I have pointed out, even in massive over-doses death from HCN gas
is not "instantaneous." In lower concentrations, the speed of death
would be slower still, and in the huge rooms that are alleged to have
been the "gas chambers," and which were supposedly packed tight with
people, the propagation of the gas through the room would have been
fairly slow (re: Leuchter Report, DEGESCH Zyklon B manual).
---
> If it is desired that the victims be killed "instantly" (as in the
Missouri gas chamber), then the chamber must be of a highly
sophisticated design utilizing hermetic seals and rapid ventilating
systems. ... If, however, he has no particular concern for the human
dignity of the condemned (i.e. any concern for his prolonged agony);
the gas chamber designer can be quite sloppy about "door seals" and
"ventilation systems"
.
The point about the door seals and ventilation systems is not so much
for the victims as for the people outside the chamber carrying on the
execution. The facilities at Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Majdanek would
not have been safe for those on the outside of the so-called gas
chambers. There is the danger of HCN poisoning, but there are also
dangers from explosion (such a pocket of HCN gas form at the proper
concentration) due to ignition, and from explosion due to rapid
polymerization (which can happen in sunlight, according to DuPont).
---
> There is an inherent "conflict of interest" in utilizing a man like
Fred Leuchter to pass judgment on the mass death gas chambers of the
camps. Leuchter is a "craftsman of death", an "artist" if you will;
analogous to the old pre-industrial age guild craftsmen of Europe.
... Fred Leuchter cannot help but be "alienated" by the idea of mass
produced executions.
.
I will have to ask that you refrain from further speculation about
what Mr. Leuchter would or would not do in any given situation. It is
not fair to him and it does nothing to further the discussion. You
might be interested to learn that before conducting his
investigation, Mr. Leuchter believed in the "gas chamber" stories
wholeheartedly.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 672 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 05:15 EDT
To John Stengel (regarding 631) ---
> If HCN condenses below 78.3 degrees F, then it EVAPORATES above
78.3 degrees F. After 45 years, it would be a miracle if any
crystalline HCN was still on the walls; porous or not porous. We must
assume that any HCN condensed on the walls would have re-evaporated
each time (during the 45+ years since the chamber was last used) the
temperature reached above 78.3 F. It simply evaporated and is "gone
with the wind"! The only possible thing to look for would be other
cyanide compounds which would have a higher evaporation point.
.
You are no doubt correct, but Mr. Leuchter (and the others who have
conducted similar tests) have not tested for HCN ... crystalline or
otherwise. They have tested for the presence of ferric-ferro-cyanide
compounds, which form when HCN comes into contact with iron in the
brick and mortal to produce "a very stable iron-cyanide complex,"
according to the Leuchter Report.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 673 Sun Apr 05, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche] at 05:33 EDT
Raven,
RE:650
As a resident of the budget-conscious state of Missouri, I can assure you that
there is no "new gas chamber" in the state. The old chamber in the Jefferson
City prison was considered for reconditioning, but lethal injection was chosen
for reasons of cost-effectiveness, among others. Leucher MIGHT have tried to
sell the state a design for a new gas chamber, but given his lack of
credentials, it was most probably a "no-go".
Scaramouche
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 674 Sun Apr 05, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton] at 10:58 EDT
[7 messages moved to topic 4]
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 675 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:29 EDT
639 Hans-Peter:
> You have introduced a whole new range of parameters into this scenario.
Not at all. This discussion began when I posted, among other things, the
Krakow report which included the quotes I inserted into message 636 and
Leuchter's comments regarding the gas chambers having been razed to their
foundations.
> Had the execution chamber under discussion been open to the elements for
> 45 years, then yes, the surface traces of CN compounds could be expected
> to have dissolved. However, the "open to the elements phase" was much less
> than 45 years for this building, was it not?
The gas chambers were destroyed in 1945 by the Nazis before they evacuated
Auschwitz. Leuchter's report was prepared in 1988 so that means that 43 years
had elapsed. The Krakow report was prepared in 1990 so that means that 45
years had elapsed. That, then, is how long these walls had been exposed to
the elements.
> It would have been better also, if the physical measurements had been
> analysed by somebody other than the Polish communist authorities, who had
> a vested interest in the story surrounding this facility.
First, the Polish authorities who did the analysis were not from the
communist regime. The study was conducted in 1990 (although the same
institute also did a study in 1945!). And, as to having a "vested interest,"
who would you suggest perform the study? IOW, who does NOT have a "vested
interest?" Leuchter got paid $35,000 for his report....by a man on trial for
spreading false news by claiming that the gas chambers did not exist (among
other things). That, too, is a vested interest.
> Although the physical evidence suggests some exposure to hydrocyanic acid
> for these cement blocks, the support for a hypothesis involving thousands
> of 15-minute exposures is pretty weak.
From where do you arrive at the "thousands" of exposures?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 676 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:30 EDT
642 John:
> I am somewhat skeptical as to the authenticity of this document (or at
> least as to the accuracy of translation):
> .
> 1. Because of the "one minute"; this contradicts the more abundant
> accounts of 10 minutes to 30 minutes.
> .
> 2. Because 50-100 lbs of coke does not sound like quite enough fuel to
> cremate 300-400 corpses.
> .
> 3. Why would Franke-Gricksch (who is presumably German, not British or
> American) refer to lbs. (pounds) of coke rather than kilograms? The
> Germans, like all of Continental Europe, use (and used in 1943) the Metric
> System of weights and measures...why would he (Franke-Gricksch) suddenly
> use the British system in correspondence with Himmler?
Remember that this is a document submitted by a subordinate (and not a DIRECT
subordinate) back to Berlin. As has been mentioned before, this document (as
well as the Einsatzgruppen reports, etc.) cannot be used as a statement of
FACT but only as a statement of what the subordinates wanted the hierarchy to
believe. Therefore, they are more supportive of a systematic extermination
POLICY than the overall execution of that policy.
Let's take each point one-by-one:
(1) Length of time: Remember that this was an official inspection trip. It
is possible that those operating the gas chamber wanted to make it appear
that the gassing was quicker than it really was (and, therefore, used more
Zyklon-B) or that F-G was trying to impress Himmler. In one of these
possibilities, F-G was accurate and in the other he was shading the truth.
Either way, this does not put into question the authenticity of the document
or of its translation.
(2) Amount of coke: This, too, could either be true or a figure submitted to
impress Himmler. Either way, this does not put into question the authenticity
of the document or its translation.
(3) Use of "lbs.": I admit that this is not in the original but is part of
the translation. Just as I have translated the degrees C into F for HCN, I
have also translated the kg into lbs to allow easier understanding for an
American audience. It is also true that in the case of temperatures I have
listed the C when mentioning the F, in this case I did not do so because I
had typed up this document early on in this discussion (it was one of the
first documents that I posted) and, at that time, I had been unaware of how
many individuals would be participating/lurking who were used to both units
of measurement.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 677 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:31 EDT
646 Raven:
> My question is why there is a divisor in the first place! If the
> number is wrong, it is simply wrong, and no divisor is going to make
> it correct.
Let's say that you have evaluated a site and believe that, based upon your
own calculations and scientific knowledge, 50 people were killed there. Now,
let's say that there is a document that claims that 100 were killed there and
another document which claims that 150 were killed there.
Now, when you write your report, you could say that the numbers in the
documents need to be divided by 2 or 3 to be correct, couldn't you? You could
also say that the numbers are wrong and that only 50 were killed there,
couldn't you? These two statements are equivalent, aren't they?
So, what you seem to be doing is arguing about Pressac's writing style and
not about the meaning of what he has said.
> Let me expand on this: let's say that in a report that has numbers
> that need to be "corrected" with a divisor of two or three there are
> non-numerical claims, such, "The Nazis would often machine-gun groups
> of midgets to death," or, "The Nazis used a portable, pedal-operated
> brain-bashing machine," or, "The Nazis used atomic devices to
> obliterate Jews," etc. How in the world can you apply a divisor to a
> statement such as these and make them "correct?"
If Pressac had applied this method of the divisor to documents which made any
of the above statements, I would say that you were correct. However, a better
example would be:
Let's say that I had been riding a bicycle down the road and was hit by a
car. I was badly injured and an ambulance was called to the scene. Later, the
police took a statement from me. In that statement I told them that I had
been riding my bicycle on the right side of the road when I was hit from the
rear by a car and thrown at least 200 feet. Someone called an ambulance and
it took it an hour or two to arrive.
In the above example, it might be true that I had been hit by a car while
riding my bicycle. It might also be true that I had been hit from the rear
and was thrown through the air. However, my statement of "at least 200 feet"
and that it took the ambulance "an hour or two" would probably not be
accurate and might, indeed, have to be divided by 2 or 3 to bring them into
line with the truth. However, even if that is true, that does not mean that
suddenly I would be injury free because my exaggeration translates into the
non-existence of the accident.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 678 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:32 EDT
647 Raven:
> I understand your point. However, I will say once again that the
> non-control samples obtain by Mr. Leuchter, when analyzed, were
> positive, but at a level that was "very close to the detection
> level." (Leuchter Report)
To be accurate, the "detection level" was 1 mg/kg and the samples which
Leuchter did not label as a control sample ranged from 1.1-7.9 mg/kg.
> Now with his zero-result "control" sample, he would have compared
> them against the other samples, and seen that there was not much
> difference. However, he would not have known for sure what the upper
> limit of a positive sample might be. Only by taking a incontestably
> positive sample could he gauge into what range samples should fall.
First, I have stated that Leuchter should have taken samples (notice the
plural) from the delousing chamber. However, a sample from there is NOT a
"control sample" which is what Leuchter claims. Therefore, it brings into
question Leuchter's knowledge of scientific terms and methods.
Second, the delousing chamber has not been exposed to the elements. So, a
sample from there does not indicate what how the samples from surfaces
exposed should have tested.
Third, at no time does Leuchter account for the differences between the
concentrations of HCN in a delousing chamber as opposed to a gas chamber.
Therefore, in a proper study such samples do need to be taken, Leuchter fails
to apply standard analysis procedures to them and incorporate that analysis
into his final report.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 679 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:32 EDT
648 Raven:
> Can I take this to mean that you thought I was QUOTING Pressac in my
> 915?
You can take it to mean that your notation left doubt as to whether you were
adding an editorial comment or including something directly from Pressac. My
statement was for the purpose of clarifying that fact.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 680 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:33 EDT
649 Raven:
> Are you proposing that by mentioning the temperature on a couple days
> during the summer that we can extrapolate to the rest of the year and
> come to the conclusion that the Auschwitz area has temperatures more
> suited to the equator than the 50th parallel? If you could take a
> moment and read my posting 466 (which you excerpted but apparently
> did not read), you will see that I grant the possibility that during
> the summer it may be warm enough.
Actually, the message in which you mentioned temperatures was in 467 and not
466.
> Auschwitz lies just above the 50th parallel, or roughly as close to
> the North Pole as Winnipeg, Canada. In the summer, it may reach 25.7
> degrees (78.3 F), but unless everything is at that temperature or
> above, HCN will condense. This means that for most of the year (and
> probably much of the day, even in the summer) the "gas chambers"
> would have had to be heated. Are there any heaters in the "gas
> chambers"? Answer: No.
You do grant the possibility that it might be barely warm enough for HCN to
be in a totally gaseous state. However, I supplied the proof that it was way
above the temperature needed on certain days. Then, I later made the point
about the difference between "climate" and "weather." The winter climate for
NYC is that there should be snow. However, this winter there was very little
of the white stuff. However, 50 years from now, someone might be writing the
history of this last winter and ASSUME that there was plenty of snow because
that would be usual.
A serious researcher in this field would get all the possible weather data
from that time.
As far as the lack of heaters in the gas chambers, I assume that you mean of
the inorganic type. After all, there were about 300 naked human bodies which
would have produced around 3900 BTU. That is more than enough to heat that
small space.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 681 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:34 EDT
650 Raven:
> Could you please supply some evidence that Missouri never conducted
> any tests or test-runs of their execution gas chamber to ensure its
> functionality? If they did, then it is more than likely that he knows
> what he is talking about. To put it another way, you are essentially
> saying that Armontrout perjured himself. Are you sure you don't want
> to reconsider?
When Armontrout was on the stand, the gas chamber had yet to be installed.
According to Scaramouche's 673, it still has yet to be installed. Therefore,
without the gas chamber present, it would have been impossible to have
conducted tests.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 682 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:34 EDT
652 & 653 Raven:
> During the Holocaust? What is that phrase doing at the end of the
> sentence? If you want a contemporary document, howza bout a little
> bit of the Zyklon B manual from DEGESCH, which under the heading
> "Toxicity," says:
> "The poison can enter the body in three ways: through the mouth, the
> respiratory organs, or the pores of the skin."
> This point directly goes to your point about why some witnesses are
> believed over others: when the witness' statements correspond to the
> possible instead of to the impossible, the witness becomes more
> valuable.
I'm glad that you agree that Rablin is believable. After all, his total
account is fascinating in light of your insistence that all methods of entry
for HCN are equally dangerous (i.e. inhalation, ingestion, through contact
with the skin). Let's look at his account of how he helped delouse clothing:
"We put on our gas masks and went in the room naked or wearing underpants....
When we went in to spread the gas, the lice jumped on us and the layers
disappeared very fast....Since we were afraid of being bitten by the lice, we
put the chisel, the hammer and the can of Zyclon-B ready in advance, opened
it quickly and threw the substance on the floor. Despite the speed of this
operation the lice jumped on our legs and to protect ourselves we spread a
little Zyclon-B around our feet. Immediately, I could feel the lice drop off,
dead. Sometimes at the moment when the gas evaporated, I tried to feel it by
handling the crystals. They felt like velvet and were cool and damp...The gas
was very dangerous for us. Before we closed the door and sealed it with
strips of paper, a little of the gas would escape into the corridor. Apart
from us two who were protected by gas masks, the rest did not have any."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 683 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:35 EDT
659 Raven:
> To Pooh.bah (regarding 585) ---
>> Both you and Raven have made the statement that the Holocaust is
>> the ONE single area of history which is the MOST rife with historical
>> error.
.
> Could you please cite my posting in which I made this claim so I can
> better address this issue?
Then please review your message 885 in TOPic 4.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 684 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:36 EDT
661 Raven:
> I call 300,000 people a large number, even if they are Jews.
Then apparently you now disagree with you message 572 which you posted two
days ago. In that message you stated:
> Hilberg later repeats his 800,000 figure (number of Jews in Roumania
> in 1939), and adds that in 1945 (presumably after the war) there were
> 430,000 Jews in Roumania, although this figure is for Jews within the
> post-war boundaries. According to my encyclopedia, after WWII,
> Roumania's loss of Bessarabia and northern Bukovina to the Soviet
> Union, and her loss of southern Dobruja to Bulgaria, were made
> permanent (she regained northern Transylvania). Thus, the post-war
> borders were much smaller, and did NOT include lands that had
> originally contained a large number of Jews.
BTW, for the record, were you trying to be cute or amusing by your addition
of "even if they are Jews" in your message 661 or are you showing us your
agenda?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 685 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:36 EDT
662 Raven:
> I don't quite follow your logic, but I was not trying to "prove" the
> fallacy of Hilberg's figures....
Then why did you state the following in #572?
> ....I will take one statistic of Hilberg's that you have
> quoted and examine it, with the hopes that I can show the difficulty
> of accurately determining war-time demographics, and the fallicy of
> accepting even Hilberg's figures.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 686 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:37 EDT
663 Raven:
> Now you've gone and confused me. The first Hilberg book I have is but
> a single-volume, copyright 1961. That's where I verified Termy's
> numbers, and got others to go along with it. I then checked Hilberg's
> 1985 student edition, where he omits virtually all of the Romanian
> population figures, but maintains the 270,000 figure for the number
> of dead. There is no mention of 300,000 Romanians taking advantage of
> the emigration offer.
Sorry that I had assumed that you had at least ONE unabridged version of
Hilberg. So, are you saying that you have TWO copies of Hilberg and they are
BOTH the single volume abridged versions?
> If what you say is true about the 300,000 to 340,000 emigrants, then
> what that means is that Hilberg "found" more live Jews to emigrate,
> but was absolutely accurate about the death toll?
This is not a question of "finding" more live Jews. Let's go over the
Hilberg's figures again. There were 800,000 Jews in Romania according to the
census in 1939. Then, based upon the 1937 borders and including those Jews
who were exterminated but had been baptised Christians (and, therefore,
possibly not in the 1939 census), there were 270,000 Jewish deaths. That
would then leave 530,000 Jews living. Out of this number, it is very easy to
see where 300,000 could take advantage of the emigration offer, isn't it?
That would leave 230,000 Jews.
Yet, there were other Romanian Jews who emigrated besides those 300,000.
According to Hilberg, during that time period, there were an additional
40,000 who emigrated. This would still leave 190,000 providing no birth,
deaths, or other emigration (which, of course, is false).
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 687 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:37 EDT
663 Raven:
> Why are Jews so easy to count accurately when they are dead?
I would suggest that you tread very carefully, Raven....your agenda is
showing again.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 688 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:38 EDT
665 Raven:
> If you meant what you said about Rassinier's "reliability about
> subjects of which he had first-hand knowledge," then we are on firm
> ground in examining what he had to say about the Kremer diary.
Once again, you are quoting out of context in such a way that it alters the
meaning. Let me re-quote what Mark Weber said:
> Weber regretted Rassinier's shortcomings, but emphasized his reliability
> about subjects of which he had first-hand knowledge, such as the
> Buchenwald and Dora camps.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 689 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:40 EDT
667 Raven:
> How would you translate "genannt das Lager der Vernichtung"?
In this phrase, "Vernichtung" is the most important word to know which
translation is correct. "Lager der Vernichtung" means Camp [Lager] of
"Vernichtung."
"Vernichtung" is a noun which comes from the verb "vernichten." This is much
like our "extermination" comes from "exterminate" or "annihilation" comes
from "annijilate."
Looking in a German/English dictionary we find:
"vernichten: annihilate, destroy utterly, exterminate."
"Vernichtung: annihilation, extinction, destruction, extermination."
Then, looking in J.I.Rodale's "Synonym Finder", "annihilation" and
"extermination" cross check as synonyms in English.
Therefore, I would probably translate it as "camp of extermination" but a
translation of "camp of annihilation" means the same thing and is equally
acceptable.
However, in English to alleviate "wordiness" we might say "extermination
camp" or "annihilation camp" and both of these phrases would be synonomous
with the "camp of...." wording.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 690 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:41 EDT
671 Raven:
>> ... Fred Leuchter cannot help but be "alienated" by the idea of mass
>> produced executions.
.
> I will have to ask that you refrain from further speculation about
> what Mr. Leuchter would or would not do in any given situation.
Does this mean that after your many phone conversations with Fred Leuchter,
you believe that he would NOT be alienated by the idea of mass produced
exectuions?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 691 Sun Apr 05, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 16:34 EDT
B.EATON2...message 643
The word "proof" is the wrong word for either camp in this debate. It is not
possible to "prove" the non-occurrence of an event. It is only possible to
show that the evidence in favour of the occurrence of an event is non-
existent, ambiguous, or flawed. Even the total absence of evidence would not
constitute "proof" in the mathematical sense of the word. It just suggests
that the occurrence of the event was improbable.
It would be like asking somebody to prove that no extraterrestrials ever
landed on the earth. This cannot be done. There IS some physical evidence that
COULD be interpreted in the affirmative for the extraterrestrial question, but
the evidence is ambiguous in that it can be explained away without resorting
to extraterrestrials as the explanation.
A great deal of this debate is very similar to the science- creationist
debates in that different criteria are being used by the opposing sides to
evaluate evidence. A fish fossil found on a mountain top is evidence of the
great flood to the creationist and evidence of a plate upheaval for me. It is
impossible to defeat a creationist in an argument because the standards of
evidence and the methods to evaluate them are different. The reason that the
creationist model is not used is not so much because it can be demonstrated to
be false but because it is not very useful as a tool for scientific research.
The only method open to somebody who wishes to dispute any historical event is
to show that the evidence in favour of the event can be explained in terms of
more PROBABLE causes or that more than one reasonable explanation is possible
for specific pieces of evidence. There is always a fair bit of subjectivity in
deciding what a given piece of evidence actually means.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 692 Sun Apr 05, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 17:52 EDT
POOH.BAH...message 675
>The gas chambers were destroyed in 1945 by the Nazis before
they evacuated Auschwitz. Leuchter's report was prepared in
1988 so that means that 43 years had elapsed. The Krakow
report was prepared in 1990 so that means that 45 years had
elapsed. That, then, is how long these walls had been exposed
to the elements.<
I somehow got the impression from the various posts that these
facilities were standing again as part of the Auschwitz
memorial created by the Polish government. There were comments
about roof ventilation, etc. IF the roof was restored, when
was this done? In addition, if the building had been razed
(which leaves the impression of "level with the earth") what
was being tested?
>From where do you arrive at the "thousands" of exposures?<
If even a modest percentage of the 1.1 million victims were
gassed in this facility (say 30%) and the capacity of this
room were 300 people, then that alone would produce 1000
exposures. Some of the posts mentioned 200 to 250 people at a
time. Nobody has mentioned the dimensions of this shower
room/gas chamber.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 693 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:23 EDT
692 Hans-Peter:
> I somehow got the impression....that these facilities were standing
> again as part of the Auschwitz memorial....
The memorial is at Auschwitz I and Krema I there has been restored. However,
Krema II, III, IV and V at Auschwitz II (Auschwitz-Birkenau) have not been
restored. Also, the two houses that were originally used have not been
restored to their condition when the Nazis occupied the area.
As far as your calculations on how many times the gas chambers were used, you
are apparently operating on the assumption of a single gas chamber. There were
gas chambers in two houses plus Krema I-V. So, if all 1.1 million were gassed
(which wasn't the case) and there were 300 per gassing and each chamber was
used an equal number of times (which also wasn't the case) that would mean
that each chamber was used about 523 times.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 694 Sun Apr 05, 1992
J.WEIR9 at 21:11 EDT
RE: Message 631 /J.STENGEL . > If HCN condenses below 78.3 degrees F, then it
EVAPORATES above 78.3 >degrees F. After 45 years, it would be a miracle if
any crystaline HCN was >still on the walls; pourous or not pourous. We must
assume that any HCN >condensed on the walls would have re-evaporated each time
(during the 45+ >years since the chamber was last used) the temperature
reached above 78.3 F. >It simply evaporated and is "gone with the wind"! The
only possible thing to >look for would be other cyanide compounds which would
have a higher >evaporation point. .
HCN is an unstable compound and bonds with other chemicals to form more stable
compounds. In the case of the Birkenau "gas chambers" the chemical which would
have formed after HCN condensed on the wall is Prussian Blue, aka ferric-ferro-
cyanide after bonding with iron in the brick and mortar. This compound is
very stable. Since the walls of the "gas chambers" would have been
continuously exposed to HCN for about a year and a half during all kinds of
weather, these iron-cyanide compounds would have had ample opportunity to
form. They should still be there. Leutcher, and Poles at the Medico-Legal
Institute have shown they are not, at least, in any abundance. . RE: Message
630 /J.STENGEL . > If it took fifteen minutes ("fifteen minutes later the
screaming stops"), >then the gas concentration in the chamber was relatively
low. With minimal >ventilation, the workers starting to remove the bodies with
"no protective >clothing or respirators" poses no particular technical
problem. .
According to the descriptions of the gassing procedures I have read, after
the victims were closed in the gas chamber, the HCN was introduced by intro-
ducing the Zyclon-B pellets. Since the initial concentration of HCN in the
air would have been close to zero, the rate at which the HCN would have had to
evaporate would have had to been sufficient to kill in 15 minutes, which means
by the time the fifteen minutes were up the concentration of HCN would have to
be at a level high enough to kill much more quickly than that. Since the pel-
lets could not be turned off, they would continue to emit HCN raising the con-
centrations to an even higher level. Since gas would be trapped in lungs, be-
tween bodies, and in various pockets surrounded by corpses, the ventilation
problem is a major issue. Those removing would be in grave danger of dying
after only a few moments of exposure to the interior of the gas chamber. Since
hauling the bodies out would be hard work the breathing of the sondern-
kommandos would be heavy from the exertion. If you believe this "poses no
particular technical problem", perhaps you would be willing to put this to the
test by hauling, say, sacks of potatoes out of a room with an air
concentration of HCN adequate to kill in 15 minutes?
[Chigger]
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 695 Sun Apr 05, 1992
M.FEINS at 22:49 EDT
We Shall Always Remember
1,500,000 small Jewish Children
and ALL the children of other faiths
of
Blessed Memory
that were indiscriminately slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
and their Nazi Masters
WE SHALL NEVER FORGET
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 697 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 22:59 EDT
To John Stengel and others ---
It occurs to me that I have been a bit remiss in that in discussing
the use of Zyklon B (and also HCN) for homicidal gassings, I assumed
that everyone knew of the difference between HCN and Zyklon B.
.
Zyklon B is a trade name for a commercial product that contains HCN.
Zyklon B comes in tins that are filled with a porous carrier
(typically wood pulp or diatomaceous earth) into which liquid HCN has
been introduced. This serves to make the HCN much more stable, and
eases handling requirements
.
As a side-effect, however, this packaging places some additional
restrictions on the use of Zyklon B. One of these is that, because
the HCN is relatively stable in this form, the ambient temperature
must be above 78.3 degrees F to promote any kind of realistic
propagation of the HCN gas. That is to say, when the temperature is
too low, the HCN will not gas off in a reasonable time, making
fumigation (or homicide) a very lengthy process indeed.
.
Note that no homicidal gas chambers here in the United States (or
anywhere else, for that matter) have ever used Zyklon B ... it is
simply too slow.
.
Furthermore, even with the right temperature, the relatively slow
propagation of the HCN gas from the Zyklon B pellets makes it
important to ensure there is air flow within the area to be fumigated
if the fumigation is to take place in anything like a reasonable
amount of time. (This addresses your 642, in which you state in part,
"considering the lethality of HCN (at low concentration) combined
with the high saturation point and low boiling temperature of HCN;
one could probably use a deep freezer room as a gas chamber!" This
statement may or may not be true for HCN gas, but to coax HCN gas out
of Zyklon B pellets certain conditions need to be met.)
.
At the correct temperature and with good air flow, fumigation takes
24 to 48 hours (or more), with ten or more hours of ventilation
afterwards.
---
Consistent with this, imagine a situation in which there is a group
of people inside a room, and Zyklon B is introduced into the room
through a side window or through a roof vent, as has been alleged.
This method of introduction results in a poor distribution of the
Zyklon B pellets, so the propagation of the HCN gas will be uneven.
Thus, in areas close to the pellets the concentration of HCN gas in
the air by volume will approach 100 percent, while at places in the
room remote from the pellets it will approach 0 percent. Somewhere in
between the areas of 0 and 100 percent concentration, there might
very well exist any number of areas that have between 6 percent and
41 percent HCN gas by volume. This is the "window" of percentage by
volume during which HCN gas is explosive. A spark in any one of these
zones would result in an auto-catalyzing explosion of the HCN gas,
which means that the breaking of an electric light, the scuffing of a
shoe nail against a concrete floor, or a match could all cause a
disastrous explosion. Worse, any victim with a little preparation
would have several minutes to effect a spark due to the slow
evaporation time of HCN gas from Zyklon B, both from being at a
distance from the pellets and by the device of holding one's breath
as long as possible with replenishing air being breathed as close to
the floor as possible.
---
Therefore, it is fine to speak of the generic properties of HCN gas,
but when it is packaged as Zyklon B there are additional properties
which must be taken into consideration.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 698 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 22:59 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 636) ---
> ... it would not be a "reasonable expectation" to find hydrocyanic
compounds present. Even though these compounds are MORE stable, there
is no reason to expect them to still be present 43 years later....
.
Fred Leuchter addresses this point in his Report. Under the heading,
"Forensic Considerations of HCN, Cyano-compounds and Crematories:"
"... Cyanide and cyanide compounds may remain in a given location for
long periods of time and if they do not react with other chemicals
may migrate around in brick and mortar....
"The control sample was removed from a delousing chamber in a
location where cyanide was known to have been used and was apparently
present as blue staining. Chemical testing of the control sample No.
32 showed a cyanide content of 1,050 mg/kg, a very heavy
concentration.
"The conditions at areas from which these [31] samples were taken are
identical with those of the control sample: cold, dark and wet. Only
Kremas IV and V differed, in the respect that these locations had
sunlight ... and sunlight may hasten the destruction of uncomplexed
cyanide. The cyanide combines with iron in the mortar and brick and
becomes ferric-ferro-cyanide, or Prussian blue pigment, a very stable
iron-cyanide complex."
.
From this we see three things: 1) Mr. Leuchter was aware that the
evidence of the use of HCN gas under certain conditions can be
destroyed, and 2) in order to test the extent of that destruction, he
took a control sample from a typical environment, and 3) the heavily
positive reading of the control sample showed that other similar
samples should still show evidence of the use of HCN gas.
---
> "It [HCN] has an acidulous character and produces salts called
cyanides when contacting with metals. Salts of alcalic metals such as
natrium and calcium, are dissolvable in water." (and etc.)
.
This I believe to be true, based on my conversations about this
matter with Fred Leuchter. However, Mr. Leuchter pointed out that the
reaction for which he was testing was not of that between HCN gas and
metal (that is, metallic objects), but rather of that between HCN gas
and metal ions, such as those found in the brick and mortar of the
alleged gas chambers. Therefore, if Mr. Leuchter had tested an iron
lighting fixture (for example) for evidence of the past use of HCN
gas, he would have had to contend with the problem of salts, weak
acids, etc. However, he was testing for something else entirely, that
being ferric-ferro-cyanides, which are far more stable and long
lasting.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 699 Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 23:00 EDT
To Pooh.bah ---
Regarding the carbon copy of the Franke-Gricksch Resettlement Action
Report you claim to have reviewed:
.
Perhaps we can get more quickly to the bottom of this matter if you
can examine pages 236 through 239 of Pressac's book and tell me if
what similarities, if any, there are between what you find there and
the carbon copy you reviewed.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 700 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 23:05 EDT
694 J.WIER:
> In the case of the Birkenau "gas chambers" the chemical which would
> have formed after HCN condensed on the wall is Prussian Blue, aka
> ferric-ferro-cyanide after bonding with iron in the brick and mortar.
According to the eminent Austrian chemist, Dr. Josef Bailer:
"It is, howeeever, also unlikely that Prussian blue [i.e. ferric-ferro-
cyanide] arose in the walls, because the iron in the bricks and in the burnt
lime acted unfavorably for the reaction of the trivalent form [of iron] and
because the alkaline environment hindered the reaction."
> This [ferric-ferro-cyanide] compound is very stable.
According to the Institute of Forensic Expertise in Krakow:
"Much more durable are those complex compounds of cyanic ions amalgamating
with heavy metals. Such one is the aforementioned Prussian Blue, but even it
dissolved slowly in an aciduious environment. Under such circumstances it was
a vain hope that after 45 years cyanide acid compounds could be found
preserved in building material (plaster, brick) if exposed to the action of
atmospheric forces such as aciduious rains and aciduious oxygenes, especially
those of sulfurous and nitrogenous complexion. A better chance had the
analysis of plaster taken from safe places, prtected from the action of
precipitation (including aciduous rains)."
> Since the walls of the "gas chambers" would have been continuously exposed
> to HCN for about a year and a half during all kinds of weather, these
> iron-cyanide compounds would have had ample opportunity to form. They
> should still be there. Leutcher, and Poles at the Medico-Legal Institute
> have shown they are not, at least, in any abundance.
First, the walls of the gas chambers were not "continuously exposed" to HCN
for a year and a half. Second, according to Dr. Bailer the iron-cyanide
compounds would not have formed. Third, according to the Institute of
Forensic Institute (i.e. the "Medico-Legal Institute" of which you spoke),
these iron-cyanide compounds are not even in great abundance in the de-
lousing facility which directly contradicts Leuchter.
Leuchter's test result for the delousing chamber (i.e. his "control" sample)
has a value so high it is unbelievable. This comment, BTW, is also made by
Dr. Josef Bailer.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 701 Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH at 23:06 EDT
694 J.WIER:
> Since gas would be trapped in lungs, between bodies, and in various
> pockets surrounded by corpses, the ventilation problem is a major issue.
As far as gas trapped in lungs, dead people don't exhale. Therefore, there
would be no danger inherent in that. Next, HCN has been used in places such
as mills and granaries because it decomposes after a short time and leaves no
residue behind. Also, HCN dissipates quickly when exposed to air which has
lower (or no) HCN concentration. This would mean that any residual gas in the
chamber would not adversely affect the Sonderkommandos.
All of the above information comes from Dr. Josef Bailer's "The Leuchter
Report from the View of a Chemist."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 702 Sun Apr 05, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 23:57 EDT
Raven, your 698: Leuchter is not an authority on chemistry, so quoting his
opinion on how long cyanides last in the environment is simply irrelevant.
What do actual forensic chemists say?
The so-called "control sample" was removed from a building that had never
been demolished, and (surprise!) had lost less of its cyanide content to
environmental factors like rain. This wasn't obvious to you?
The same compounds are produced by reacting HCN with elemental metals and
metal compounds (what you refer to as "metal ions" in the bricks and whatnot).
Strongly reactive metals ALWAYS react as ions. By the way, "natrium" is
sodium.
Carl Fink
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 703 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 00:03 EDT
697 Raven:
> Zyklon B is a trade name for a commercial product that contains HCN.
> Zyklon B comes in tins that are filled with a porous carrier
> (typically wood pulp or diatomaceous earth) into which liquid HCN has
> been introduced. This serves to make the HCN much more stable, and
> eases handling requirements
> .
> As a side-effect, however, this packaging places some additional
> restrictions on the use of Zyklon B. One of these is that, because
> the HCN is relatively stable in this form, the ambient temperature
> must be above 78.3 degrees F to promote any kind of realistic
> propagation of the HCN gas. That is to say, when the temperature is
> too low, the HCN will not gas off in a reasonable time, making
> fumigation (or homicide) a very lengthy process indeed.
Seeing as you have previously stated that the testimony of Rablin is
reliable, let me quote from it:
"....Since we were afraid of being bitten by the lice, we put the chisel, the
hammer and the can of Zyclon-B ready in advance, opened it quickly and threw
the substance on the floor. Despite the speed of this operation the lice
jumped on our legs and to protect ourselves we spread a little Zyclon-B
around our feet. Immediately, I could feel the lice drop off, dead. Sometimes
at the moment when the gas evaporated, I tried to feel it by handling the
crystals. They felt like velvet and were cool and damp...The gas was very
dangerous for us. Before we closed the door and sealed it with strips of
paper, a little of the gas would escape into the corridor. Apart from us two
who were protected by gas masks, the rest did not have any."
It seems, then, that Zyklon-B is not nearly as "stable" as what you make it
seem.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 704 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 00:04 EDT
697 Raven:
> At the correct temperature and with good air flow, fumigation takes
> 24 to 48 hours (or more), with ten or more hours of ventilation
> afterwards.
Since "fumigation" refers to various vermin and not people, it is irrelevant
in this discussion. After all, the concentration of HCN that is necessary
(and the length of time necessary) to exterminate virtually every pest other
than mosquitos is much higher than what is needed to kill humans.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 705 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 00:05 EDT
697 Raven:
> This method of introduction results in a poor distribution of the
> Zyklon B pellets, so the propagation of the HCN gas will be uneven.
> Thus, in areas close to the pellets the concentration of HCN gas in
> the air by volume will approach 100 percent, while at places in the
> room remote from the pellets it will approach 0 percent.
HCN disperses quickly in surrounding air. That is one of the reasons it can
be vented to the outside without risk to those any distance away. Therefore,
your assumption that the concentration would fluctuate in such a manner is
illogical.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 706 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 00:05 EDT
698 Raven:
> Fred Leuchter addresses this point in his Report. Under the heading,
> "Forensic Considerations of HCN, Cyano-compounds and Crematories:"
> "... Cyanide and cyanide compounds may remain in a given location for
> long periods of time and if they do not react with other chemicals
> may migrate around in brick and mortar....
From Dr. Josef Bailer's analysis of the Leuchter Report:
"Against this hypothesis in the Leuchter report, it is unlikely that
bydrocyanic gas would remain in the pores of the walls because light, lime
and water or dampness would have destroyed it. ... Apart from this, the
Leuchter report only suggests, but never actually maintains, that this kind
of cyanide residue had been found."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 707 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 00:06 EDT
698 Raven:
> "The control sample was removed from a delousing chamber in a
> location where cyanide was known to have been used and was apparently
> present as blue staining. Chemical testing of the control sample No.
> 32 showed a cyanide content of 1,050 mg/kg, a very heavy
> concentration.
Once again, from Dr. Josef Bailer:
"The cyanide concentrations for residuals shown in the Leuchter report are
too high to be believable. A concentration of 1050 mg/kg, which is given for
the 'control' sample would mean that the wall consisted of 0.1% Prussian
blue! This is to be traced back to either an error in analysis or an error in
sample collection. ... Prussian blue is a very widespread coloring material
that is to be found in great quantities on old walls as a residue of old
painting or as a stain of color that some kind of material that once leaned
against this wall left behind..... At least in the case of the 'control'
sample the sample consisted almost exlusively of painting that adhered to the
top of the plaster."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 708 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 00:07 EDT
698 Raven:
> This I believe to be true, based on my conversations about this
> matter with Fred Leuchter. However, Mr. Leuchter pointed out that the
> reaction for which he was testing was not of that between HCN gas and
> metal (that is, metallic objects), but rather of that between HCN gas
> and metal ions, such as those found in the brick and mortar of the
> alleged gas chambers.
Apparently you are trying to make a distinction without the existence of a
difference. Iron atoms are iron atoms whether they occur solely on the
microscopic level (i.e. atoms within brick and mortar) or also on the
macroscopic level (i.e. metal object).
I really hope that Fred Leuchter didn't tell you this and that you only came
to this conclusion on your own. Otherwise, Leuchter is less knowledgeable
than what I had supposed.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 710 Mon Apr 06, 1992
B.EATON2 [BZE] at 00:54 EDT
To Hans-Peter re #691
You are adopting the Raven/Rungu tactic of quibbling over minor pts. I have
asked them, and now you, to present some kind of evidence showing that the
Holcaust did NOT happen. Pooh.Bah has presented documents, etc. showing that
it did happen. It is up to those who refuse to accept its existence to
disprove those documents, eyewitnesses, etc. If you cannot show that these
things are false, then you must admit what is known: 6 million Jews died in
Europe between 1933-1945, most as a result of a deliberate policy of
extermination.
The Nazis left a chilling paper trail of their intentions and their actions.
Even if you feel that you can discount some of it, the weight of the evidence
is overwhelming.
It has been many years since I read Speer's book, but I still remember him
complaining very late in the war, that he had trouble getting railroad cars
for the essential war material he was responsible for producing because
Eichmann was using them to transport Jews to concentration camps. Even with
Gotterdamerung upon them, they were still concerned with their extermination
of the Jews.
It is almost impossible to believe that supposedly civilized men could behave
in such an inhumane manner and, therefore, all the accounts of the atrocities
must be mistaken. But they were not 'civilized men.' Lord Acton said it a
long time ago. "All power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely." The
Nazis, corrupted by the absolute power they held for a time over most of
Europe, ran amok. They divorced themselves from human feelings and cold-
bloodedly murdered more than the Jewish 6 million.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 711 Mon Apr 06, 1992
J.STENGEL [John] at 01:34 EDT
---->J.WEIR9 Message 694
.
>If you believe this "poses no particular technical problem",
> perhaps you would be willing to put this to the test by hauling,
>say, sacks of potatoes out of a room with an air concentration
>of HCN adequate to kill in 15 minutes?
.
Whoa! Now here's a guy who really challenges me to put up or shut up!
Actually, if you really thought it would harm me, would you dare me to such a
stunt??? No, I definitely would not do so in "a room with an air
concentration of HCN adequate to kill in 15 minutes"...my whole point on my
post you cite is that with elementary ventilation, the chamber no longer
contains "concentration of HCN adequate to kill in 15 minutes". When the doors
were CLOSED the HCN concentration WAS adequate to kill in 15 minutes. Now, if
the doors were opened and the air in the chamber was "changed", AND the volume
of the room outside the chamber was several times greater than the volume of
the chamber...so that the concentration of
HCN is lowered to a point "adequate to kill" in maybe a couple hours, AND
you held a gun to my head and said I had no choice...well, I guess I'd haul
the potatoes (and although I'm not ASOLUTELY certain), I'd PROBABLY live to
report my experience back here on Genie! I'm not a chemist, I have only
rudimentary knowledge of the subject. The post you cite, and challenge me
on, is basically my common sense (IMHO) application of fundamental
chemistry principles to this problem...sorry if I am not so totally confident
in my conclusions as to (willingly) literally bet my life on it (I have a
family to raise)!
.
>Since the initial concentration of HCN in the air would have been
>close to zero, the rate at which the HCN would have had to evaporate
>would have had to been sufficient to kill in 15 minutes, which means
>by the time the fifteen minutes were up the concentration of HCN would
>have to be at a level high enough to kill much more quickly than that.
>Since the pel- lets could not be turned off, they would continue to
>emit HCN raising the con- centrations to an even higher level.
.
J.Weir, you issued me a challenge, now I'll give you one...a simple
experiment. Go into a fairly large room. You go to one side of the room.
Have a friend go to a spot as far away as possible from you and open a bottle
of perfume and pour some in a bowl...use a stopwatch to time how long it
takes for you to smell the perfume. Assuming you're not doing the experiment
in an airplane hanger, you will probably smell the perfume in less than 2
minutes...the point is that gases tend to diffuse very rapidly and uniformly
throughout a container.
.
As to your point "since the pellets could not be turned off, they would
continue to emit HCN raising the concentrations to an even higher
level"...Since the volume of the chamber would be known, it would be a simple
matter to calculate the exact mass of pellets, which completely evaporated,
will raise the concentration to the exact desired level; no more, no less.
There is no need to "turn the pellets off". It is my understanding that these
(Zyklon) pellets evaporate very rapidly.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 712 Mon Apr 06, 1992
J.STENGEL [John] at 01:38 EDT
----->G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] Message 697:
.
>As a side-effect, however, this packaging places some additional
>restrictions on the use of Zyklon B. One of these is that, because
>the HCN is relatively stable in this form, the ambient temperature
>must be above 78.3 degrees F to promote any kind of realistic
>propagation of the HCN gas. That is to say, when the temperature is
>too low, the HCN will not gas off in a reasonable time, making
>fumigation (or homicide) a very lengthy process indeed.
.
Well, we do agree that the lethal ingredient in ZyklonB is HCN. As far as
activating the Zyklon (getting it to release HCN), I think what you are saying
is that only the ZyklonB pellets themselves must be heated to 78.3 degrees
F...not necessarily the the entire area into which they are to release HCN.
I could propose any of a number of ways to do that very easily...place the
can in hot water for a few minutes before opening...enough heat energy would
be absorbed by the pellets to ensure their rapid and complete evaporation
once released from the can (regardless of the ambient temperature of the area
into which the pellets are placed).
.
>Furthermore, even with the right temperature, the relatively slow
>propagation of the HCN gas from the Zyklon B pellets makes it
>important to ensure there is air flow within the area to be fumigated
>if the fumigation is to take place in anything like a reasonable
>amount of time. (This addresses your 642, in which you state in part,
>"considering the lethality of HCN (at low concentration) combined
>with the high saturation point and low boiling temperature of HCN;
>one could probably use a deep freezer room as a gas chamber!" This
>statement may or may not be true for HCN gas, but to coax HCN gas out
>of Zyklon B pellets certain conditions need to be met.)
.
Yes, I agree, when used for fumigation purposes the air flow is important.
Fumigating a building though (presumably with many different rooms, hallways,
nooks and crannies), is far different than simply releasing the gas in one
single room (with no architectural barriers). In the single room (or gas
chamber) scenario; once present, the gas diffuses rapidly and uniformly
throughout the volume of the room.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 713 Mon Apr 06, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche] at 01:42 EDT
Wouldn't the chemical reaction of Zyklon-B with acid be enough to raise it's
temperature over 79F?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 714 Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:19 EDT
To All ---
As most of you may have either read or guessed, I use a Macintosh to
conduct this discussion on GEnie, which means I am not using Aladdin.
I don't know what Aladdin does for those who use it, but I assume it
is something wonderful.
.
At any rate, in order to read and then respond to these messages I
must do a considerable number of find-and-replace operations to
"clean up" the text and get it in a presentable form (my typos
aside!). It would help me immensely if everyone could set his
communications program to 70 or 75 characters screen width. The
longer lines wrap around my (narrow) screen and are a real pain to
work with.
.
Thanks.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 715 Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:19 EDT
To Scaramouche (regarding 673) ---
> As a resident of the budget-conscious state of Missouri, I can
assure you that there is no "new gas chamber" in the state. The old
chamber in the Jefferson City prison was considered for
reconditioning, but lethal injection was chosen for reasons of
cost-effectiveness, among others. Leuchter MIGHT have tried to sell
the state a design for a new gas chamber, but given his lack of
credentials, it was most probably a "no-go". Scaramouche
.
I didn't say there was a new gas chamber. As Leuchter himself points
out in his Report, gassing by HCN is the most expensive method due to
all the complexities involved in doing it right. It is entirely
possible that Missouri looked at the cost and gave it a pass. This
does not change whether or not Mr. Leuchter designed a new facility
for them, however, and it does not, as you imply, reflect on his
credentials. In fact, were it not for Missouri warden Bill Armontrout
giving Mr. Leuchter the nod as the only expert in the field of
execution equipment, the Zuendel defense team might not have
contacted Leuchter. Mr. Leuchter's accomplishments show that he is
more than qualified as an engineer.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 716 Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:20 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 675) ---
We may be losing sight of the fact that the tests for CN compounds is
only one component of the Leuchter Report. Mr. Leuchter admits that
there were cases in which he could not take samples. We really should
be examining the entire report before passing judgment. For example,
we know that some of the buildings have been rebuilt, modified, etc.,
even though the Auschwitz Museum does not admit to all the
alterations that have been performed. What is important here is that
the reconstructions (and etc.) are claimed to be exact duplicates of
the original buildings, even in cases where there do not seem to be
any original documents to back up these claims.
.
This leaves us with two choices: 1) Either the buildings really are
exact duplicates ... and Leuchter was correct about their
inadequacies as "gas chambers," or 2) the buildings are false in at
least some degree, and there is no way of knowing what the truth ...
which leads us back to my statement that there is no evidence.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 717 Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:20 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 676) ---
> Use of "lbs.": I admit that this is not in the original
[Franke-Gricksch Resettlement Action Report] but is part of the
translation. Just as I have translated the degrees C into F for HCN,
I have also translated the kg into lbs to allow easier understanding
for an American audience.
.
This is becoming VERY interesting. Your copy of the F-G Resettlement
Action Report makes reference to KILOGRAMS of coke? Fabulous. It
truly is difficult to contain my excitement at learn this, especially
in light of your first mention of this document, in which you said:
"The above document has been translated as is. Nothing has been added
to it. All comments in () appear in the original document...also in
()."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 718 Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:21 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 680) ---
> You do grant the possibility that it might be barely warm enough
for HCN to be in a totally gaseous state. However, I supplied the
proof that it was way above the temperature needed on certain
days....
.
Actually I grant much more than that. However, we are dealing with
the death by Zyklon B of hundreds of thousands of individuals. This
is OBVIOUSLY something that did not happen only on balmy summer days.
This must have been a year-round activity for quite awhile. If it
could only take place a few months out of the year, then all the
averages (people per gassing, crematoria capacity, barracks capacity,
etc.) are knocked into a cocked hat. I don't have ready access to the
day-by-day weather for the years 1942 through 1944 in the Auschwitz
area, but I'll bet a quarter that there were plenty of days below 78
degrees F. The Holocaust story seems to be "running out of time."
---
> As far as the lack of heaters in the gas chambers, I assume that
you mean of the inorganic type. After all, there were about 300 naked
human bodies which would have produced around 3900 BTU. That is more
than enough to heat that small space.
.
I might be more inclined to accept this (compound) statement were it
backed up by a reference. I know from personal experience that as a
cold room fills with people, the temperature rises. But it usually
takes more than a minute, and I don't remember any of the so-called
eyewitness testimony or the confessions stating that they would load
up the "gas chambers," wait until the temperature rose to the right
level, and then dropped in the pellets. Can you cite some?
.
While we are on the topic, I need to know where you got the figure of
300 bodies, how your calculated the BTU output, and to what space you
are referring. It sounds as if you are referring to one single "gas
chamber," in which case I would need to know which of the so-called
gas chambers you think actually was a "gas chamber" and which were
not.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 719 Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:21 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 681) ---
> When Armontrout was on the stand, the gas chamber had yet to be
installed. According to Scaramouche's 673, it still has yet to be
installed. Therefore, without the gas chamber present, it would have
been impossible to have conducted tests.
.
You have in previously posts made reference to page 353 of Lenski's
book on the second Zuendel trial (funny, isn't it, that this is but a
half-page of text and it has borne the bulk of our references to this
tome!). In the paragraph at the bottom of the page, we read:
"Armontrout described for the court, with the aid of slides, the
incredibly complex business of conducting a lethal gassing. He noted
that 38 people 'are closely involved on-site' in such an operation in
Missouri, while more than 200 participate indirectly."
.
Furthermore, we have it on the authority of Scaramouche (who claims
to be from Missouri, and may even be able to do the fandango), that:
> A point of fact, to my knowledge Missouri has not gassed anyone
since 1965. When the death penalty was revived here in 1989, the gas
chamber had so deteriorated as to make gassing impossible without
reconditioning the seals (a very expensive proposition). [post 269]
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 720 Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:22 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 682) ---
> I'm glad that you agree that Rablin is believable....
.
I did not say I found him believable, but that to the extent that his
testimony reflects events that are not impossible, he becomes more
valuable. As we shall soon see, his value is extremely limited.
---
> After all, his total account is fascinating in light of your
insistence that all methods of entry for HCN are equally dangerous
(i.e. inhalation, ingestion, through contact with the skin).
.
I am not insisting that all three methods of HCN poison are equally
dangerous. I was quoting from the DEGESCH manual, in order to show
than skin poisoning is not only possible, but a real hazard.
---
> Let's look at his account of how he helped delouse clothing:
> "We put on our gas masks and went in the room naked or wearing
underpants.... When we went in to spread the gas, the lice jumped on
us and the layers disappeared very fast....Since we were afraid of
being bitten by the lice, we put the chisel, the hammer and the can
of Zyklon-B ready in advance, opened it quickly and threw the
substance on the floor.
.
Oops! Errors. I will overlook the account of going in naked rather
than become bogged down in a pointless discussion. However, it is
well known that there were special can openers for the Zyklon B ... a
purpose-built tool ... and it looks nothing like a hammer and/or a
chisel.
---
Despite the speed of this operation the lice jumped on our legs and
to protect ourselves we spread a little Zyklon-B around our feet.
Immediately, I could feel the lice drop off, dead. Sometimes at the
moment when the gas evaporated, I tried to feel it by handling the
crystals.
.
Error alert! Handling the crystals would have been extremely
dangerous. All the manuals call for chemical suits, rubber gloves,
and special gas masks (not just any old gas mask will do). Rablin
must have an interesting physiognomy if he is able to run his hands
through Zyklon B without harm, yet be susceptible to a slight leak in
his gas mask.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 721 Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:22 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 683) ---
> Then please review your message 885 in TOPic 4. [as proof that you
have called the Holocaust story the ONE single area of history which
is MOST rife with historical error]
.
Well, I looked before posting my 659 and I looked again after reading
your 683, and I gotta tell ya that I can't see that I used the word
rife in that post, or singled out the Holocaust story.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 722 Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:23 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 684) ---
One of us is losing it. You claim that when I stated that I consider
300,000 Jews a large number of Jews (in 661) that I was in conflict
with my post of 572 when I called the 300,000 Jews in the lands ceded
to Russia a "large number of Jews."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 723 Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:23 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 686) ---
> Sorry that I had assumed that you had at least ONE unabridged
version of Hilberg. So, are you saying that you have TWO copies of
Hilberg and they are BOTH the single volume abridged versions?
.
According to Hilberg's preface in the 1961 version, this is his first
work, begun in 1948 (my edition is in paperback, Quadrangle Books).
My other copy is the abridged student version from 1985. What you
seem to be saying is that Hilberg has not one three-volume set, but
two. No wonder he wrote about the Holocaust for 18 years before he
visited Auschwitz for the first time, and then for only one day ...
he was so busy writing and rewriting this book he never had the time
to get out!
---
> Let's go over the Hilberg's figures again.
.
Let's not. I merely wanted to make the point that in spite of the
work Hilberg has done in this area, demographics for this area in
this era are tricky, and even Hilberg's figures cannot be accepted as
absolute. I believe we both agree on this point.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 724 Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:23 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 688) ---
You reposted an earlier statement of yours that reads:
>> Weber regretted Rassinier's shortcomings, but emphasized his
reliability
>> about subjects of which he had first-hand knowledge, such as the
>> Buchenwald and Dora camps.
.
To my mind, the phrase that starts "such as" does not limit
Rassinier's reliability to only Buchenwald and Dora. To me they
represent examples of some of the areas in which Rassinier is
reliable, and there may be others. As it turns out, Rassinier states
that he is an expert at analyzing documents. Are you denying he is,
or are you trying to say that because Mr. Weber did not specifically
mention Mr. Rassinier's reliability in this matter, we can not
consider it to be so?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 725 Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:24 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 689) ---
> Therefore, I would probably translate it [the German phrase] as
"camp of extermination" but a translation of "camp of annihilation"
means the same thing and is equally acceptable.
.
And, because "camp of extermination" means about the same as
"extermination camp," why not really shorten it up and say
"extermination camp," right?
.
Two reasons. First, because that is not what Kremer allegedly wrote.
Second, Kremer was a native German speaker, was he not? He certainly
could have used the "vernichtungslager" construction if that is what
he had meant, couldn't he? Third, condensing and changing things as
you have described hides from me (and others) what was actually said,
which in effect helps make up my mind about something without my
being aware of the influence. And fourth, as Rassinier says,
mistranslations such as this do "violence to the meaning of the
text."
---
By the way, when I want to get rid of roaches in my house, I call the
exterminator, not the annihilator. Although the words may be somewhat
similar, they can hardly be said to be everywhere interchangeable.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 726 Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:24 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 690) ---
> Does this mean that after your many phone conversations with Fred
Leuchter, you believe that he would NOT be alienated by the idea of
mass produced executions?
.
Now I will have to again ask that you not misquote me, and from
casting further aspersions on the character of Mr. Leuchter. You know
perfectly well that we were discussing the technique of mass
executions, not the moral implications.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 727 Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:25 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 693) ---
> The memorial is at Auschwitz I and Krema I there has been restored.
.
According to the Leuchter Report:
"The drawing ... of Krema I ... shows a morgue of some 7,680 cubic
feet with two doorways, neither door opening externally. One doorway
opened into the crematory and the other into the washroom.
Apparently, neither opening had a door, but this was not verifiable
since one wall had been removed and one opening had been moved.
"It should be noted that the official Auschwitz State Museum
guidebooks says that the building physically remains in the same
condition as it was on liberation day on January 27, 1945."
.
There seems to be some difference of opinion here.
---
> However, Krema II, III, IV and V at Auschwitz II
(Auschwitz-Birkenau) have not been restored.
.
According to the Leuchter Report, Kremas II and III were in a state
of disrepair, but there were still major portions available for
examination. Kremas IV and V were "razed long ago," leaving only the
"foundation or floor." Plans purporting to be of these two buildings
are available.
---
> Also, the two houses that were originally used have not been
restored to their condition when the Nazis occupied the area.
.
According to the Leuchter Report, Bunker I is missing completely and
Bunker II has been "restored and utilized as a private residence."
(!)
---
> As far as your calculations on how many times the gas chambers were
used, you are apparently operating on the assumption of a single gas
chamber. There were gas chambers in two houses plus Krema I-V. So, if
all 1.1 million were gassed (which wasn't the case) and there were
300 per gassing and each chamber was used an equal number of times
(which also wasn't the case) that would mean that each chamber was
used about 523 times.
.
You seem to be working on the assumption that all these "gas
chambers" were working simultaneously when in fact they weren't,
which you must realize. To take just one example, Kremas IV and V
were built last, but the construction was so poor that they were only
used sporadically for a short while and then shut down and razed. Now
the Holocaust story is running out of room, too.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 728 Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 04:25 EDT
To J.Weir (regarding 694) ---
From the looks of your message, you are having the same problem I had
when I first joined GEnie. Try this, after uploading your message
(*U), type *SN at the beginning of a line. That tells GEnie not to
format your text but to leave it the way you entered it. Hope this
works for you.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 729 Mon Apr 06, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche] at 05:03 EDT
Greg,
If you bother to type in my GEnie ID at the mail directory, you will find that
I am indeed from Missouri, although I do not do the fandango. The only gas
chamber in this state is the old one in the Jefferson City, MO state
penitentiary, the one used to execute Heady and Hall, the Bobby Greenlease
kidnappers in 1953, among others. It had not been used since 1965, and when
the death penalty was revived in the state, lethal injection was chosen as the
means of execution, following a nationwide trend, since , among other reasons,
the seals of the chamber had deteriorated to the point that it would have been
a positive danger to witnesses and prison official to use without an expensive
reconditioning of the seals. There is no "new gas chamber" in Missouri, either
designed by Leuchter or anyone else.
("officials to use")
Scaramouche
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 730 Mon Apr 06, 1992
TERMY at 06:06 EDT
In reply to: Message 645 G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]
-> With the exception of the Tauber verdict, which is neither here
->nor there, you seem to have made reference to documents
->concerned with the Einsatzgruppen.
The point concerning the Taubner verdict is simple: the SS and Police Supreme
Court stated in this verdict that the Jews have to be exterminated. I would
invite comment from any lawyers present concerning the implications of a high
court's statement to that effect.
->I have already agreed that there were some atrocities there.
->However, there were mitigating factors (such as the guerrilla-
->style warfare taking place in these regions), and the short
->existence of the Einsatzgruppen hardly translates into a program
->of genocide. Please refer again to my message 169.
The EK 3 report stands in stark contrast to your assertions, for several
reasons:
1. Multiple entries show Jewish children being killed. Is there any reason
to supposed babes at breast were conducting guerilla operations?
2. One entry (dated 17.7.41, town of Babtei) shows 8 Communists were executed
at that place on that day, and specifically states that 6 of the 8 were
Jewish.
3. 2.8.41, Kauen-Fort IV entry shows one US Jew, one US Jewess being killed.
We were not at war with Germany at that time.
4. The report differentiates between Communists and Jews (and Jewish
communists), between Poles and Jews, between Lithuanians and Jews, Russians
and Jews, POWs and Jews, Gypsies and Jews, a German female (married to a Jew),
Communists and non-Communists, partisans, adults, children, male, female,
NKVD, Politruks, mayors, murderers, thieves, robbers, mentally insane...and
the "superfluous Jews" in the ghetto (see 28.10.41, Kauen-Fort IX entry).
5. The "discussion" at the conclusion of the citation of figures states that
the intent was to kill all Jews, but some were needed for skilled labor.
6. The "discussion" details the methodology used to execute large numbers of
people.
For reference, the report may be found beginning with post #244.
----------
Re Rassiner's interpretation of Kremer's diary: Roget's Thesaurus lists
"exterminate" as synonymous with "annihilate", and vice versa.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 731 Mon Apr 06, 1992
TERMY at 06:09 EDT
Below is reproduced as exactly as possible a photocopy of
Bunesarchiv, Koblenz document #NS 19/291, a report from the
Reichsfuehrer-SS (Himmler) to Hitler. Limitations of this medium
requires the "americanization" of certain letters, but the text is,
letter for letter, as faithful to the photocopy as possible. The text
states this was typed on a special "Fuehrer-typewriter", a typewriter
with large type.
Attention is directed to entry 2c, "Juden exekutiert".
---------
(-NO 3392-
(-NO 511-)[1]
[2] 31/12 [3]
Der Reichsfuehrer-SS Feld-Kommandostelle'
den 29 Dezember 1942
Retr.[4]: Weldungen an den Fuehrer ueber
Bendenbekaempfung. [5]
W e l d u n g Wr. 51
--------------------
Russland-Sued, Ukraine, Bialystok.
----------------------------------
Bandenbakaempfungserfolge vom1.9. bis 1.12.1942
-----------------------------------------------
1.) Banditen:
---------
a) festgestellte Tote nach Gefechten (x)
August: September: Oktober: November: insgesamt:
------- ---------- -------- --------- ----------
227 381 427 302 1337
b) Gefangene sofort exekuitiert
125 282 87 243 737
c) Gefange nach laengerer eingehender Vernehmung
exekutiert
2100 1400 1596 2731 7828
2.) Bandenhelfer und Bandenverdaechtige:
------------------------------------
a) festgenommen
1343 3078 8337 3795 16553
b) exekutiert
1198 3020 6333 3706 14257
c) Juden exekutiert
31246 165282 95735 70948 363211
3.) Ueberlaeufer a.G. deutscher Propaganda:
---------------------------------------
21 14 42 63 140
(x) Da der Russe seine Gefallenen verschleppt
bzw.sofort verscharrt, sind die Verlustzahlen
auch nach Gefangenenaussagen erhablich hoeher
zu bewerten.
[6]
Bundesarchiv 318 [7]
NS 19/291 [8]
V.69[9]
---------
[1] Handwritten
[2] Handwritten, illegible in my photocopy, see [3]
[3] "31/12" handwritten date 31 Dec., followed by handwriting
illegible in my photocopy. Text states [2] and [3] to be handwritten
acknowledgement that the report was submitted to Hitler on 31 Dec,
1942 in the handwriting of his adjutant Pfeiffer.
[4] First letter illegible in photocopy.
[5] Handwriting, illegible.
[6] Illegible, first part of Bundesarchiv stamp.
[7] "318" stamped, different stamping, clarity from the Bundesarchiv
stamp.
[8] Handwritten, Bundesarchiv reference number
[9] Handwritten
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 732 Mon Apr 06, 1992
D.BRIN1 at 06:59 EDT
Mr. Raven: What is the value of Mr. Leuchter's "control" samples when he
fails to acknowledge that the delousing chambers would have been exposed to
much higher levels of HCN than the human gas chambers? When these delousing
chambers were exposed to many hours of gassing during each use?
This failure to note the different doses required to kill lice, as opposed
to human beings, makes the whole enterprise meaningless.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 733 Mon Apr 06, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton] at 08:46 EDT
[2 messages moved to topic 4]
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 734 Mon Apr 06, 1992
TERMY at 08:58 EDT
A memo dated 14 November, 1941.
----
re: Conferment of the Kriegsverdienstkreuz [KVK-"war service cross"]
re: My telegram to you, no. 2719, of 14 Nov. 1941.
The Commandant's Office has submitted to date two lists recommending
the conferment of the Kriegsverdienstkreuz. In both of these appear
SS personnel who participated in executions. We herewith request
confirmation as to whether these names should be listed once again in
the roll currently under preparation. Further requested is
information as to whether in the recommendations lists under "Reasons
and Comments of Immediate Superior" there should be specified,
"Execution, i.e., special action" or whether a general, routine reason
should be given.
The Camp Commandant
Signed, Roedl
SS Obersturmbannfuehrer
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 735 Mon Apr 06, 1992
TERMY at 08:59 EDT
On 30 Nov., 1941, the acting inspector of the concentration camps, SS-
Obersturmbannfuehrer Liebehenschel answered the previous memo thusly:
In the lists of recommendations for the conferment of the KVK to SS
members who participated in the executions, under the "reasons" enter
"completion of vital war assignments." The word "execution" should
under no circumstances be mentioned. In the lists to be handed in,
the names already cited should be cited once again.
I.V. [by order of the Chief Inspector]
Signed, Liebenschel
SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 736 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:06 EDT
715 Raven:
> This does not change whether or not Mr. Leuchter designed a new facility
> for them, however, and it does not, as you imply, reflect on his
> credentials.
First, what proof is there (other than Leuchter's word) that he did indeed
"design" a gas chamber for Missouri? Second, if he only designed it but never
constructed it, how does he (or do we) know that his design would work as a
gas chamber? Third, since this is, by his own admission, the only gas chamber
that he has designed or had any involvement with, it does place into question
his "expertise" on the question of gas chambers.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 737 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:06 EDT
715 Raven:
> This leaves us with two choices: 1) Either the buildings really are
> exact duplicates ... and Leuchter was correct about their
> inadequacies as "gas chambers," or 2) the buildings are false in at
> least some degree, and there is no way of knowing what the truth ...
> which leads us back to my statement that there is no evidence.
There are many more possibilities than that, Raven. For instance, there is a
distinct possibility that Leuchter doesn't know about what he's speaking!
But, even leaving that to one side, only Krema I has been reconstructed. That
still leaves Krema II-V and the two houses. Krema I, being at Auschwitz I,
was part of the head camp and not the extermination camp (Auschwitz II or
Auschwitz-Birkenau).
As far as evidence, there is more evidence concerning the Holocaust than for
almost any other event in history. For every other historical event,
eyewitness accounts, written documents, letters, diaries, memoirs, etc. are
all accepted without question. Yet, the Holocaust is held to a different
standard. Why do you suppose that is, Greg?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 738 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:07 EDT
717 Raven:
> It truly is difficult to contain my excitement at learn this, especially
> in light of your first mention of this document, in which you said:
> "The above document has been translated as is. Nothing has been added
> to it. All comments in () appear in the original document...also in
> ()."
There is no contradiction here. For instance, if a document in German speaks
of 1 kg., there is nothing wrong in translating that to 2.2 lbs. The meaning
is still the same. No document is translated word-for-word from German to
English. If it were, it would be difficult (if not impossible) for an English
speaker to understand the document. Why? German grammatical structure is very
dissimilar to ours.....most of the verbs go at the end of the sentence and
there are separable prefix verbs. Let me give you an example:
Ich bringe mein Mann mit.
This translates to:
I bring my husband with
(word for word leaving the "with" as the preposition that ends the sentence.
This is not correct English grammar and, in fact, the verb is "mitbringen"
but has a separable prefix.)
Now, let's take another separable prefix verb and see what happens.
Ich bringe mein Mann um.
There has only been one change. The verb is "umbringen" and not "mitbringen"
and both the "um" and the "mit" go at the end of the sentence. Yet, there is
no way that this sentence can be translated word-for-word with an English
word to represent each German word. Why? "Umbringen" translates to kill, slay
or murder!
As I stated before, I added nothing to the translation of the F-G report.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 739 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:08 EDT
718 Raven:
> I might be more inclined to accept this (compound) statement were it
> backed up by a reference. I know from personal experience that as a
> cold room fills with people, the temperature rises. ... While we are on
> the topic, I need to know where you got the figure of 300 bodies, how your
> calculated the BTU output, and to what space you are referring. It sounds
> as if you are referring to one single "gas chamber," in which case I would
> need to know which of the so-called gas chambers you think actually was a
> "gas chamber" and which were not.
Actually, this is a simple calculation. A human body at rest generates an
average of 3500 kcal. In the gas chamber, there was exertion which would
increase this heat output but these people were often times undernourished,
too, which would decrease the amount of heat they could generate. Therefore,
it is not unreasonable to accept the average resting heat output as that for
the undernourished exertion figure.
Now, one BTU is 252 kcal. From the F-G report we get the figure of 300-400
people per gas chamber. There are other documents which range as low as 250
and as high as 450. However, for purposes of this calculation, I selected the
300 person figure because it is the one mention most often.
This means that each person generated 13.88 BTU. No matter which number of
persons you select, you can do your own multiplication.
As far as the length of time necessary for the gas chamber to heat, if heat
is added to a gas (air) confined at constant volume, the amount of heat
needed to cause a one-degree temperature rise is less than if the heat is
added to the same gas free to expand. In the first case, all the energy goes
into raising the temperature of the gas.
The above holds true for any of the gas chambers since these calculations do
not involve the volume of the air being heated. The BTU would be constant and
the specific gas chamber only comes into question if calculations for length
of time (which is affected by volume) for heating the gas chamber was
involved.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 740 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:09 EDT
719 Raven:
> In the paragraph at the bottom of the page, we read: "Armontrout described
> for the court, with the aid of slides, the incredibly complex business of
> conducting a lethal gassing. He noted that 38 people 'are closely involved
> on-site' in such an operation in Missouri, while more than 200 participate
> indirectly."
And right above that paragraph we read:
"Though Missouri has executed no one during Armontrout's tenure, he has
witnessed two gassings in other states, and helped with one." This is then
footnoted with the following note: "At three minutes past midnight on January
6, 1989, Bill Armontrout presided over his first execution, and Missouri's
first since 1965. It was accomplished, however, by means of a lethal
injection."
Therefore, as I pointed out before, Armontrout has no knowledge of what
Missouri does or doesn't do regarding their operation of the gas chamber. In
fact, Missouri doesn't even have a working gas chamber any more so the answer
is even more hypothetical than what it appears on the surface.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 741 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:09 EDT
720 Raven:
> Error alert! Handling the crystals would have been extremely
> dangerous. All the manuals call for chemical suits, rubber gloves,
> and special gas masks (not just any old gas mask will do). Rablin
> must have an interesting physiognomy if he is able to run his hands
> through Zyklon B without harm, yet be susceptible to a slight leak in
> his gas mask.
In a brochure issued by Degesch in 1972 (the photos are reproduced in
Pressac's book on page 17), there is a photo (#8) of the correct handling of
what was once known as Zyklon-B (which has been renamed Cyanosil). In photo
8, there are two men distributing the disks of Cyanosil on the floor of a
building to be fumigated. Both men have standard overalls on and neither is
wearing any hand covering. Other than their gas masks, they have no special
protective gear.
In fact, according to the "Principles of Internal Medicine," because it takes
over 2000 times MORE HCN to cause death when skin contact is the only method
of introduction into the system (as opposed to inhalation), cyanide poisoning
via skin contact is rare.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 742 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:10 EDT
721 Raven:
> Well, I looked before posting my 659 and I looked again after reading
> your 683, and I gotta tell ya that I can't see that I used the word
> rife in that post, or singled out the Holocaust story.
Seeing that I did not indicate a direct quote from you, the use of a word
such as "rife" has little bearing on this. But, in your message 885 you did
single out the Holocaust as having more errors than anything else you have
been taught. Here, then, is your direct quote:
> I have pointed out in several posts, before I started investigating
> this topic, virtually everything I had been told about the Holocaust
> story ... in the classroom, on the television, in books ... was in
> error. I can't think of any other topic about which that can be said.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 743 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:11 EDT
722 Raven:
> One of us is losing it. You claim that when I stated that I consider
> 300,000 Jews a large number of Jews (in 661) that I was in conflict
> with my post of 572 when I called the 300,000 Jews in the lands ceded
> to Russia a "large number of Jews."
We can clear this up fairly quickly by reviewing what you did write in #572.
> According to Hilberg, there were 270,000 deaths of Jews in Roumania,
> based on the 1937 borders. According to Hilberg's first edition of
> "The Destruction of the European Jews," in 1939 Roumania had 800,000
> Jews. In June 1940, 300,000 Jews were included in land ceded to
> Russia. Land ceded to Transylvania contained a further 150,000 Jews.
> Hilberg goes on to state, "The remaining Jews in Old Roumania
> consequently numbered about 350,000." So far, so good.
> .
> Hilberg later repeats his 800,000 figure (number of Jews in Roumania
> in 1939), and adds that in 1945 (presumably after the war) there were
> 430,000 Jews in Roumania, although this figure is for Jews within the
> post-war boundaries. According to my encyclopedia, after WWII,
> Roumania's loss of Bessarabia and northern Bukovina to the Soviet
> Union, and her loss of southern Dobruja to Bulgaria, were made
> permanent (she regained northern Transylvania). Thus, the post-war
> borders were much smaller, and did NOT include lands that had
> originally contained a large number of Jews.
So, for there to be no conflict (or confusion), you must be saying that
300,000 qualifies as a "large number of Jews" by a mere 150,000 is NOT a
large number of Jews. Is that correct?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 744 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:11 EDT
723 Raven:
> Let's not. I merely wanted to make the point that in spite of the
> work Hilberg has done in this area, demographics for this area in
> this era are tricky, and even Hilberg's figures cannot be accepted as
> absolute. I believe we both agree on this point.
We both agree that "demographics for this area in this era are tricky" but
you have made a compound sentence with which I cannot agree. So, your belief
is faulty....but it was a nice try! :-)
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 745 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:12 EDT
724 Raven:
>> Weber regretted Rassinier's shortcomings, but emphasized his
>> reliability about subjects of which he had first-hand knowledge, such as
>> the Buchenwald and Dora camps.
.
> To my mind, the phrase that starts "such as" does not limit
> Rassinier's reliability to only Buchenwald and Dora. To me they
> represent examples of some of the areas in which Rassinier is
> reliable, and there may be others.
Now I understand the confusion. What are these "shortcomings" to which Mark
Weber referred? Let's go back and see if Weber ever clarifies this, shall we?
Oh, look, under cross-examination, Weber admits that he had been "disturbed"
by Rassinier's "errors of fact" which was why he has "accepted nothing he
[Rassinier] writes" except first-person experiences!
That then clarifies the "such as," doesn't it?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 746 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:13 EDT
725 Raven:
> Two reasons. First, because that is not what Kremer allegedly wrote.
> Second, Kremer was a native German speaker, was he not? He certainly
> could have used the "vernichtungslager" construction if that is what
> he had meant, couldn't he?
Once again you are attempting to make a distinction where there is no
difference. Let's try working with an example. You and I are both native
speakers of English (I know that I am and I am assuming that you are based
upon the few facts you've provided us about your background).
Now, yesterday just happened to be my mother's birthday. If you were to tell
someone that you might say: "Yesterday was Pooh's mother's birthday." That
person might relay that information on to someone else by saying: "Yesterday
was the birthday of Pooh's mother." Once again, that person could relay the
information down the line by saying: "Yesterday was the birthday of the
mother of Pooh." All of these sentences convey the same information and have
identical meanings.
The same is true of "extermination camp" or "camp of extermination." That
holds true whether we are speaking English or German (i.e. "Lager der
Vernichtung" and "Vernichtungslager" are the same).
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 747 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:13 EDT
725 Raven:
> Now I will have to again ask that you not misquote me, and from
> casting further aspersions on the character of Mr. Leuchter. You know
> perfectly well that we were discussing the technique of mass
> executions, not the moral implications.
I did not misquote you. In fact, I brought your statement directly from your
message into mine!
Here, then, is your comment in which you were responding to John. [">>>" =
John's comment, ">>" = your comment, ">" = my comment]
>>> ... Fred Leuchter cannot help but be "alienated" by the idea of mass
>>> produced executions.
.
>> I will have to ask that you refrain from further speculation about
>> what Mr. Leuchter would or would not do in any given situation.
> Does this mean that after you many phone conversations with Fred Leuchter,
> you believe that he would NOT be alienated by the idea of mass produced
> exectuions?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 748 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:14 EDT
727 Raven:
> According to the Leuchter Report, Kremas II and III were in a state
> of disrepair, but there were still major portions available for
> examination. Kremas IV and V were "razed long ago," leaving only the
> "foundation or floor." Plans purporting to be of these two buildings
> are available.
Well, that's not exactly what the Leuchter Report says, is it?
"In Birkenau, Kremas II, III, IV, V are collapsed, or razed to the
foundations..."
I would consider "collapsed or razed to the foundations" to be a tad bit more
than "in a state of disrepair," wouldn't you?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 749 Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:14 EDT
727 Raven:
> You seem to be working on the assumption that all these "gas
> chambers" were working simultaneously when in fact they weren't,
> which you must realize.
I believe that you failed to read my message even though you quoted it into
your own message. Here is the section which is relevant to the above:
> and each chamber was used an equal number of times (which also wasn't the
> case)
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 750 Mon Apr 06, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 21:42 EDT
B.EATON2...message 710
The "Universal Standard Encyclopedia" published by Funk and Wagnall in 1956,
which was given to me as a child, still states "According to a conservative
estimate, more than 4,000,000 men, women, and children were put to death at
the Auschwitz camp alone...". The same encyclopedia mentions the traditional
total of 6 million. More modern encyclopedias, like the one operated by
CompuServe waffle a little and give the totals for Auschwitz as between 1 and
3 million.
This says several things in light of the fact that the 4 million figure was
Soviet propaganda....
1) No research was done and the Soviet figures were taken at face value.
2) The 4 million must surely be included in the 6 million, for the story to
make any sense at all, even in 1956.
3) If the actual figure for this camp is 1.1 million, then simple arithmetic
and honesty should reduce the total to a little over 3 million. I agree with
Dov that this does not change the moral issue, but why deliberately go with
figures which cannot be supported?
4) Variations of fatality roles in the range from 1 to 3 million in modern
encyclopedias suggest very strongly that nobody knows how many victims there
were. How can the base figures be this vague and yet the 6 million result be
so definite?
Your arithmetic, Mr. Eaton, appears to operate by different rules than most,
if any arbitrary set of numbers always adds up to 6 million.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 751 Mon Apr 06, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 22:02 EDT
POOH.BAH...message 739
The calculation may be simple, but it is also incorrect. 1 BTU is the amount
of heat required to raise the temperature of one pound of water by 1
Fahrenheit degree, while a kcal is the amount needed to raise a 1 kg of water
by 1 Celsius degree. Kilograms are larger than pounds and Celsius degrees are
larger than Fahrenheit degrees, so it follows that kcal are larger than BTU.
As a matter of fact, the proper conversion is 1 BTU = 0.252 kcal NOT 1 BTU =
252 kcal. You are off by a factor of 1000.
The 3500 kcal you mentioned would be the total food intake over a 24- hour
period for a fairly robust construction worker who eats heavily. Incidentally,
1 food calorie = 1 Cal = 1 kcal. A fairly healthy person at rest produces the
same amount of heat as a 60 watt light bulb.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 752 Mon Apr 06, 1992
B.EATON2 [BZE] at 23:33 EDT
To Hans-Peter Message #750
I believe the 6 million is the difference between the number of Jews who lived
in Europe before 1933 and those who were unaccounted for when the war ended in
'45. It does not matter whether they were gassed, shot, died of beatings,
starvation, typhus, or suffocated in the cattle cars. They died because of a
deliberate policy of extermination. THAT is the meaning of the Holocaust.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 753 Tue Apr 07, 1992
P.BRADEN [pat.b] at 01:25 EDT
Raven tries to make an issue out of the boiling pointy of HCN but his
ignorance of chemistry is showing. Its not the boiling point that matters but
the vapor pressure. Liquid HCN has a very high vapor pressure even at low
temperature. The "handbook of Chemistry and Physics" (aka the rubber bible)
lists a vapor pressure of 400 mm of Hg at 10.2 C. By comparison, the vapor
pressure of ether is quite a bit lower and anybody who's ever spilled ether on
the floor knows how fast that evaporates! Also, HCN vapor is considerably less
dense than air (about 0.9 g/l as oppposed to 1.3 g/l). Therefore the liquid
would evaporate and fill the room quickly, even in winter. Perhaps Raven also
doesn't believe in entropy. His sillyness about explosive polymerization is
just that. Obviously, It can only happen in the liquid state or at very high
vapor concentrations.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 754 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:08 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 700) ---
> According to the eminent Austrian chemist, Dr. Josef Bailer:
> It is, however, also unlikely that Prussian blue [i.e.
ferric-ferro- cyanide] arose in the walls, because the iron in the
bricks and in the burnt lime acted unfavorably for the reaction of
the trivalent form [of iron] and because the alkaline environment
hindered the reaction.
.
I am not familiar with Dr. Bailer or his evaluation of the Leuchter
Report. Can you tell me, has he actually done any testing or is he
eyeballing this thing from the comfort of his armchair? Note that I
don t want a listing of his qualifications, I want to know if he has
done the hands-on work, or if he is bench-racing. So far, the
Leuchter Report, the Krakow Institute report, the recent Austria
report, and the recent German report ... all on-site examinations ...
conclude that there were no gas chambers.
---
> Leuchter s test result for the delousing chamber (i.e. his
control sample) has a value so high it is unbelievable. This
comment, BTW, is also made by Dr. Josef Bailer.
.
This sounds suspiciously like bench-racing. If Dr. Bailer s test
results differ, let s see them. If he has no test results, then I
encourage him to do his homework and then get back to us.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 755 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:08 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 701) ---
> As far as gas trapped in lungs, dead people don t exhale.
Therefore, there would be no danger inherent in that.
.
No, but when they are moved the air might be forced out of their
bodies, yes? This may not qualify as an exhale, but the HCN-rich air
is being exhausted from the bodies nevertheless.
---
> Next, HCN has been used in places such as mills and granaries
because it decomposes after a short time and leaves no residue
behind.
.
Please cite a range of times and a reference for these times.
According to the DEGESCH and DuPont materials I have quoted, it takes
several hours for HCN gas to decompose to a level considered safe.
The so-called eyewitness accounts make no allowance for this time to
elapse.
---
> Also, HCN dissipates quickly when exposed to air which has lower
(or no) HCN concentration. This would mean that any residual gas in
the chamber would not adversely affect the Sonderkommandos.
> All of the above information comes from Dr. Josef Bailer s The
Leuchter Report from the View of a Chemist.
.
If one is moving bodies that have concentrations of HCN gas trapped
in their lungs, and pockets of HCN gas in their hair, clothing, etc.,
how quickly must the HCN gas dissipate in order for someone handling
these bodies immediately after gassing to be safe from also being
gassed? This must be the reason why engineers such as Mr. Leuchter
design gas chambers, and not chemists such as Dr. Bailer or
pharmacists such as Mr. Pressac.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 756 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:09 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 703) ---
> Seeing as you have previously stated that the testimony of Rablin
is reliable, let me quote from it:
> ....Since we were afraid of being bitten by the lice, we put the
chisel, the hammer and the can of Zyklon-B ready in advance, opened
it quickly and threw the substance on the floor. Despite the speed
of this operation the lice jumped on our legs and to protect
ourselves we spread a little Zyklon-B around our feet. Immediately,
I could feel the lice drop off, dead.
.
So. You are now reduced to misquoting me? As I have stated twice now,
I do not consider the testimony of Rablin reliable in and of itself.
.
However, I must thank you for reposting this tidbit, because there is
something I forgot to mention earlier. You have repeatedly posted
messages telling us all how much higher the concentrations of HCN gas
must be to kill lice compared to humans. Yet here you have lice
dropping off dead immediately and the humans continuing to work and
run their hands through the Zyklon B! In fact, in your next post
(704) you state:
.
> After all, the concentration of HCN that is necessary (and the
length of time necessary) to exterminate virtually every pest other
than mosquitoes is much higher than what is needed to kill humans.
.
Which statement is correct?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 757 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:09 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 705) ---
> HCN disperses quickly in surrounding air. That is one of the
reasons it can be vented to the outside without risk to those any
distance away. Therefore, your assumption that the concentration
would fluctuate in such a manner is illogical.
.
HCN gas may indeed disperse very quickly, but FIRST it must gas off
from the inert carrier ... that s what Zyklon B is: an inert carrier
soaked with HCN. Are you really saying that the instant Zyklon B is
exposed to air, the concentration of HCN gas in the room becomes
uniform almost immediately? This you call logical? Perhaps you could
cite a reference to this amazing property.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 758 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:10 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 706) ---
> Apart from this, the Leuchter report only suggests, but never
actually maintains, that this kind of cyanide residue had been
found. (Dr. Bailer)
.
Huh? I thought you said you had a copy of the Leuchter Report. See
Appendix 1? See the title, Compiled Data from Certificates of
Analysis? See at the top the samples were tested for iron content,
and just below that the samples were tested for cyanide content. If
the cyanide was not in combination with the iron, what in the world
keep it around long enough to give sample 32 such a strong positive
reading?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 759 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:10 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 707) ---
> Once again, from Dr. Josef Bailer:
> The cyanide concentrations for residuals shown in the Leuchter
report are too high to be believable. A concentration of 1050 mg/kg,
which is given for the control sample would mean that the wall
consisted of 0.1% Prussian blue! This is to be traced back to either
an error in analysis or an error in sample collection. ... Prussian
blue is a very widespread coloring material that is to be found in
great quantities on old walls as a residue of old painting or as a
stain of color that some kind of material that once leaned against
this wall left behind..... At least in the case of the control
sample the sample consisted almost exclusively of painting that
adhered to the top of the plaster.
.
It is now quite clear that Dr. Bailer is guessing. He has conducted
no on-site examination. He is speculating wildly as to what else
could possibly have caused Leuchter s test results. What in the world
can his motives be for this? It certainly cannot be science.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 760 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:11 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 708) ---
> Apparently you are trying to make a distinction without the
existence of a difference. Iron atoms are iron atoms whether they
occur solely on the microscopic level (i.e. atoms within brick and
mortar) or also on the macroscopic level (i.e. metal object).
.
Could you please cite a reference for this statement? According to my
Webster s dictionary under the listing, ion, I find:
an atom or group of atoms that carries a positive or negative
electric charge as a result of having lost or gained one or more
electrons.
.
From this we can see quite clearly that there are atoms that have NOT
lost one or more electrons, and those that have. Those that have are
called ions, and ... although not stated here ... could very well
behave differently than whole atoms, just as Mr. Leuchter has
stated.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 761 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:11 EDT
To John Stengel (regarding 712) ---
> I think what you are saying is that only the Zyklon B pellets
themselves must be heated to 78.3 degrees F...not necessarily the
entire area into which they are to release HCN. I could propose any
of a number of ways to do that very easily...place the can in hot
water for a few minutes before opening...enough heat energy would be
absorbed by the pellets to ensure their rapid and complete
evaporation once released from the can (regardless of the ambient
temperature of the area into which the pellets are placed).
.
This method may work, but you are taking advantage of 20/20
hindsight. That is, adding and subtracting facts to try to keep the
story intact. You could do your hypothesis a world of good if you
could produce some kind of evidence that the Germans followed this
procedure.
---
> Yes, I agree, when used for fumigation purposes the air flow is
important. Fumigating a building though (presumably with many
different rooms, hallways, nooks and crannies), is far different
than simply releasing the gas in one single room (with no
architectural barriers). In the single room (or gas chamber)
scenario; once present, the gas diffuses rapidly and uniformly
throughout the volume of the room.
.
When you read how tightly the Germans supposedly packed the victims
into these single rooms, you begin to see that the restriction to
the air flow is far, far greater than it would typically be during
the fumigation of a factory, barracks, etc.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 762 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:12 EDT
To E.Brown (regarding 713) ---
> Wouldn t the chemical reaction of Zyklon-B with acid be enough to
raise it s temperature over 79F?
.
The Germans are not alleged to have dropped Zyklon B into acid to
promote the gassing off process. As previously noted, acid is used in
American gas chambers.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 763 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 03:16 EDT
My apologies to everyone for not converting the "curly quotes" in
messages I just uploaded. The R is the opening quote and the S is the
close quote.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 764 Tue Apr 07, 1992
D.BRIN1 at 04:09 EDT
Mr. Raven: You are ignoring many of Pooh's salient points. She has explained
why skin contact with Zyklon B is not a significant danger. You have ignored
the fact that the workers wore gas masks when they were killing the lice with
the chemical. You have offered no refutation of Pooh's contention that lice
and humans are killed by vastly different levels of HCN!
What does Mr. Leuchter have to say about the subject? Does he actually
maintain that comparable concentrations of HCN will kill lice and humans
alike?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 766 Tue Apr 07, 1992
TERMY at 06:22 EDT
In reply to: Message 755 G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]
-> No, but when they are moved the air might be forced out of their
-> bodies, yes? This may not qualify as an exhale, but the HCN-rich
->air is being exhausted from the bodies nevertheless.
1. The amount of air that would be moved in such a fashion as you describe
would be minimal. As a former paramedic, I've moved bodies many hundreds of
times, & am speaking from personal experience. Based upon my experiences, I
would say that no more than 100-200 cc's could be forced out in such fashion.
2. Maximum volume of air contained in the lungs of an "average" adult is
about 6 liters. The average inhalation-exhalation cycle displaces about 500
cc's of air, total, and 150 cc's of that is "dead space", i.e., air in the
trachea, pharynx, etc. (p.171 Emergency Care in the Streets, 3rd Ed. Nancy
Caroline M.D. Little & Brown Co. Boston. 1987.) According to my recollection
of the lectures in paramedic school on the subject, a full exhalation (from a
full inhalation) will displace about 1.5-2 liters of air from the lungs, and
this requires the use of the main and auxiliary respiratory muscle groups
(i.e., not something that could be achieved by moving an unconscious person or
deceased person). Manual (i.e., not mouth-to-mouth) non-assisted resucitation
methods displace no more than about 500 cc with each cycle.
3. The amount of air that COULD be exhaled is much smaller than would be
necessary to support your theory. Even if 100% of the air were exhausted from
the lungs, the amount's too small, unless you're willing to posit all of it
going directly into the lungs of the person or persons moving the body. A
liter or two of exhaled air would be dissipated into the atmosphere very
quickly.
4. Due to the absorption of the HCN through the alveolar membranes, the
expressed air would contain much less HCN than when inhaled, hence would be
less dangerous.
-> If one is moving bodies that have concentrations of HCN gas
->trapped in their lungs, and pockets of HCN gas in their hair,
->clothing, etc., how quickly must the HCN gas dissipate in order
->for someone handling these bodies immediately after gassing to
->be safe from also being gassed?
1. Re "trapped in their lungs": See above points 1-4.
2. Re "hair": The amount of gas trapped in the hair would be minimal and
subject to quick dispersion in any air current. This presumes the gassed
victims HAD hair...many didn't.
3. Re "clothing": What clothing?
->This must be the reason why engineers such as Mr. Leuchter
->design gas chambers, and not chemists such as Dr. Bailer or
->pharmacists such as Mr. Pressac.
Where did Mr. Leuchter obtain his engineering degree? Also, what criminal
record does Mr. Leuchter have & how does it relate to engineering?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 767 Tue Apr 07, 1992
AH.STEIN at 18:37 EDT
750 Hans-Peter:
>The "Universal Standard Encyclopedia" published by Funk and Wagnall in
1956, which was given to me as a child, still states ...
Historians generally do not use Funk and Wagnall's encyclopedia as a
source.
As Pooh.Bah has pointed out several times (apparently you missed her
explanations), professional historians have confirmed the 6 million deaths
figure after taking the Aushwitz figures you refer to into account.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 768 Tue Apr 07, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 20:39 EDT
Raven, your 756:
>>... You have repeatedly posted messages telling us all how much
>>higher the concentrations of HCN gas must be to kill lice
>>compared to humans. Yet here you have lice dropping off dead
>>immediately and the humans continuing to work and run their hands
>>through the Zyklon B! In fact, in your next post (704) you
>>state:....
[referring to Rahlin's testimony that he and his fellow workers used HCN gas
released by sublimation from crystals to kill like on their legs, and that he
handled HCN crystals with his bare hands.]
Raven, this is disingenuous. Surely you realize that Rahlin was wearing a
gas mask? That absorption through the skin is trivial by comparison to
absorption through the lungs? That levels instantly fatal even to lice WHICH
BREATHE THE GAS IN are harmless when touching only exposed skin?
Raven, your 757:
>> HCN gas may indeed disperse very quickly, but FIRST it must gas
>>off from the inert carrier ... that s what Zyklon B is: an inert
>>carrier soaked with HCN. Are you really saying that the instant
>>Zyklon B is exposed to air, the concentration of HCN gas in the
>>room becomes uniform almost immediately? This you call logical?
>>Perhaps you could cite a reference to this amazing property.
Raven, can you cite a reference demonstrating that it takes more than 15
minutes for the HCN gas to escape from the inert carrier in Zyclon B?
Raven, your 760:
I know your contempt for qualifications when they don't belong to Deniers,
but take the word of a science teacher: while metallic iron contains
unionized atoms, the compounds of metallic iron with the cyanide radical are
not different from those formed by ionic iron compounds. If you don't believe
me, ask a chemist.
Oh, the word "unionized" above is un-EYE-uh-nyzed, meaning "not ionized".
It has nothing to do with trade unions.
Carl Fink
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 769 Tue Apr 07, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 22:30 EDT
From SHOAH, excerpt of Claude Lanzmann's interview of historian Raul Hilberg
Hilberg: This is the Fahrplananordnung 587 which is typical for special
trains. The number of the order goes to show you how many of them there were.
Underneath: Nur fuer den Dienstgebrauch-- "Only for internal use." But this
turns out to be a very low classification for secrecy. And the fact that in
this entire document, which after all deals with death trains, one cannot see--
not only on this one, one cannot see it on others--the word geheim, "secret,"
is astonishing to me. That they would not have done that is very astonishing.
On second thought, I believe that had they labeled it secret, they would have
invited a great many inquiries from people who got hold of it. They would then
perhaps have raised more questions; they would have focused attention on the
thing. And the key to the entire operation from the psychological standpoint
was never to utter the words that would be appropriate to the action being
taken. Say nothing; do these things; do not describe them. So therefore this
"Nur fuer den Dienstgebrauch." And now notice to how many recipients this
particular order goes. "Bfe"-Bahnhofe. On this stretch there are one, two,
three, four, five, six, seven, eight, and here we are in Malkinia, which is of
course the station near Treblinka. But notice that it takes eight recipients
for this relatively short distance through Radom to the Warsaw district-eight,
because the train passes through these stations. Therefore, each one has to
know. Not only that, but of course you're not going to write two pieces of
paper if you can write only one. Therefore, we find here not only PKR, which
is a death train, going here in the plan labeled thus, but we also see the
empty train after it has arrived in Treblinka, now originating in Treblinka,
and you can always know whether it's an empty train with the letter L in front
of it, leer, and now--
Ruckleitung des Leerzuges, which means "return of the empty train."
--the train returns empty. And now we're going back. Then we have another
train, Now notice that there is very little subtlety to this numbering system.
We are going from 9228 to 9229, to 9230, to 9231, to 9232. Hardly any
originality here. It's just very regular traffic.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 770 Tue Apr 07, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 22:31 EDT
Lanzmann: Death traffic.
Hilberg: Death traffic. And here we see that starting out in one ghetto, which
obviously is being emptied, the train leaves for Treblinka. It leaves on the
thirtieth of September, 1942, eighteen minutes after four o'clock-by the
schedule at least-and arrives there at eleven twenty-four on the next morning.
This is also a very long train, which may be the reason it is so slow. It's a
50G--fuenfzig Gueterwagen--fifty freight cars filled with people. That's an
exceptionally heavy transport. Now once the train has been unloaded at
Treblinka-and you notice there are two numbers here: 11:24, that's in the
morning, and 15:59, which is to say almost four o'clock in the afternoon--in
that interval of time the train has to be unloaded, cleaned and turned around.
And you see here the same numbers appear as the Leerzug, the now empty train,
goes to another place. And it leaves at four o'clock in the afternoon and goes
now to that other place which is yet another small town where it picks up
victims. And there you are at three o'clock in the morning. It leaves on the
twenty-third at three o'clock in the morning. And arrives there the next day.
Lanzmann: What is that? lt seems to be the same train.
It is the same--quite obviously the same. The number has to be changed quite
obviously. Correct. Then it goes back to Treblinka and this is again a long
trip; and it now goes back to yet another place-the same situation, the same
trip. And then yet another. Goes to Treblinka and then arrives in Czestochowa
the twenty-ninth of September and then the cycle is complete. And this is
called a Fahrplananordnung. If you count up the number of not empty trains but
full ones--PKRs-- there's one--there's one here, that's two, that's three,
that's four--we may be talking about ten thousand dead Jews on this one
Fahrplananordnung here.
Lanzmann: More than ten thousand.
Hilberg: Well, we will be conservative here.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 771 Tue Apr 07, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 22:31 EDT
Lanzmann: But why is this document so fascinating, as a matter of fact?
Because I was in Treblinka, and to have the two things together. . .
Hilberg: Well, you see, when I hold a document in my hand, particularly if
it's an original document, then I hold something which is actually something
that the original bureaucrat held in his hand. It's an artifact. It's a
leftover. It's the only leftover there is. The dead are not around. The
Reichsbahn was ready to ship in principle any cargo in return for payment. And
therefore, the basic key --price-controlled key-- was that Jews were going to
be shipped to Treblinka, were going to be shipped to Auschwitz, Sobibor or any
other destination so long as the railroads were paid by the track kilometer,
so many pfennigs per mile. The rate was the same throughout the war. With
children under ten going at half-fare and children under four going free.
Payment had to be made for only one way. The guards, of course, had to have
return fare paid for them because they were going back to their place of
origin.
Lanzmann: Excuse me, the children under four who were shipped to the
extermination camps, the children under four. . .
Hilberg: . . . went free.
Lanzmann: They had the privilege to be gassed freely?
Hilberg: Yes, transport was free. In addition to that, because the person who
had to pay, the agency that had to pay, was the agency that ordered the train--
and that happened to have been the Gestapo, Eichmann's office--because of the
financial problem which that office had in making payment, the Reichsbahn
agreed on group fares. The Jews were being shipped in much the same way that
any excursion group would be granted a special fare if there were enough
people traveling. The minimum was four hundred, a kind of charter fare. Four
hundred minimum. So even if there were fewer than four hundred, it would pay
to say there were four hundred and in that way get the half-fare for adults as
well. And that was the basic principle. Now of course if there were
exceptional filth in the cars, which might be the case, if there was damage to
the equipment, which might be the case because the transports took so long and
because five to ten percent of the prisoners died en route. Then there might
be an additional bill for that damage. But in principle, so long as payment
was being made, transports were being shipped. Sometimes the SS got credit.
Sometimes the transport went out before payment, because as you see, the whole
business was handled as in the case of any other charter traffic especially or
any really personal traffic of any kind through a travel bureau. Mittel
Europaeisch Reisebuero (The Middle Europe Travel Agency) would handle some of
these transactions-the billing procedure, the ticketing procedure-or if a
smaller transport was involved, the SS would . . .
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 772 Tue Apr 07, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 22:33 EDT
Lanzmann: It was the same bureau that was dealing with any kind of normal
passenger?
Hilberg: Absolutely. Just the official travel bureau. Mittel Europaeisch
Reisebuero would ship people to the gas chambers or they will ship vacationers
to their favorite resort, and that was basically the same office and the same
operation, the same procedure, the same billing.
Lanzmann: No difference?
Hilberg: No difference whatsoever. As a matter of course, everybody would do
that job as if it were the most normal thing to do.
Lanzmann: lt was not a normal job.
Hilberg: No, it was not a normal job. As a matter of fact, you know, even the
complicated currency procedures were followed in much the same way as with any
other transactions if borders had to be crossed, and that was very frequent.
I think the most interesting example is of course Greece, the transports from
Salonika, Greece, in the spring of 1943, involving some forty six thousand
victims over a considerable distance, so that even with group fare the bill
came to almost 2 million marks, which was quite a sum. And the basic
principle, you see, with such traffic is that which is employed in the
customary way, even to this day, all over the world. One pays in the currency
of the place of origin, but then one has to pay the participating railroads en
route in their own currencies.
Lanzmann: From Salonika they bad to cross Greece--it was drachmas.
Hilberg: In Greece it was drachmas, and then you might have to go through the
Serbian and Croatian railroads, and you might then have to go to the
Reichsbahn and pay in marks. Now ironically, the problem was, you see, that
the military commander in Salonika who was in charge-so he in a sense was the
ultimate person responsible for paying for these things--didn't have the
marks, though he did have the drachmas, you see, from the confiscated Jewish
property which was used to pay for these things. This was a self-financing
principle. The SS or the military would confiscate Jewish property and with
the proceeds, especially from bank deposits, would pay for transports.
Lanzmann: You mean that the Jews themselves bad to pay for their death?
Hilberg: You have to remember one basic principle. There was no budget for
destruction. So that is the reason confiscated property had to be used in
order to make the payments. All right. The property of the Jews in Salonika
was confiscated, but the proceeds were in local Greek currency. The
Reichsbahn, of course, would want payment in marks. How then do you change the
drachmas into marks? Now you have exchange controls, right within occupied
Europe. The only way it could be done, of course, is if somebody in this
occupied zone obtained marks. But how could they? This was not such a simple
thing in wartime, and therefore for once there was a default, and the railroad
shipped all of these Jews to Auschwitz without compensation.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 773 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 22:55 EDT
To All (regarding 573) ---
Get ready to laugh ... I made a mistake.
.
In my 573 (and subsequent posts) regarding evaluating the Kremer
diary, I made reference to my source as being Paul Rassinier, when in
fact the source is Robert Faurisson. I got my wires crossed.
---
While I have your undivided attention, in my post of 918 (in the
other TOPic), I quoted someone as saying that Walter Lueftl's report,
"Holocaust: Belief and Facts," was "published recently in Vienna."
This is apparently untrue. The report was apparently made public by
someone other than Mr. Lueftl, although Mr. Lueftl stands behind his
report. This is particularly interesting in light of the fact that
Austria has just "approved a new law to prosecute as a criminal
anyone who denies the Holocaust,'" according to the latest IHR
Newsletter. The Newsletter goes on to say that, "(t)he new law makes
it illegal 'to deny, grossly minimize, praise or justify through
printed works, over the airwaves or in any other medium the National
Socialist genocide or any other National Socialist crime.'" I feel
that this type of thought-crime legislation makes the weaknesses of
the traditional Holocaust story all that much more apparent, but I
certainly do not envy Mr. Lueftl his position.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 774 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 22:55 EDT
To Daniel Brin (regarding 732) ---
> What is the value of Mr. Leuchter's "control" samples when he fails
to acknowledge that the delousing chambers would have been exposed to
much higher levels of HCN than the human gas chambers? When these
delousing chambers were exposed to many hours of gassing during each
use?
.
As I have stated repeatedly, by testing a surface known to have been
in contact with HCN gas, he was able to determine what range of
cyanide compounds might be found on other, similar surfaces (that is,
similar construction, materials, condition after 45 years, etc.). If
you have been following along with this discussion, you know that
there are those who claim that the CN compounds would never have
lasted all this time. Leuchter showed that they could have. Without
that control sample, the almost uniformly low readings in the
so-called gas chambers could have easily been dismissed by just this
argument. Leuchter therefore established that not only could the
chemical reaction have taken place, but that it did in fact do so,
and that the resulting compounds are resilient enough to have lasted
to the present day.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 775 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 22:56 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 737) ---
> Krema I, being at Auschwitz I, was part of the head camp and not
the extermination camp (Auschwitz II or Auschwitz-Birkenau).
.
Doesn't Pressac state that there were executions at Krema I,
including some conducted in a hallway? It is my understanding that
Pressac formed this opinion after looking at the Leuchter Report,
which shows higher level of CN compounds than any of the other four
alleged extermination sites.
---
> As far as evidence, there is more evidence concerning the Holocaust
than for almost any other event in history. For every other
historical event, eyewitness accounts, written documents, letters,
diaries, memoirs, etc. are all accepted without question.
.
This is so blatantly untrue I can't imagine why you would say it. In
the study of historical events, NOTHING is accepted without question.
---
> Yet, the Holocaust is held to a different standard. Why do you
suppose that is, Greg?
.
The Holocaust IS held to a different standard ... a much lower one. I
suppose this has something to do with the taboo that has been created
against the dispassionate study of this so-called event.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 776 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 22:56 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 738) ---
> There is no contradiction here [in the presented translation of the
Franke-Gricksch Report]. For instance, if a document in German speaks
of 1 kg., there is nothing wrong in translating that to 2.2 lbs.
.
I can understand why you speak of this matter hypothetically: the
Franke-Gricksch Report does NOT mention kilograms, either. It refers
to "1/2 - 1 Ztr. Koks." ("Ztr" being short for Zentner, apparently).
Are you trying to evade my question or have you in actuality not
reviewed a carbon copy of this document, as you claim? You might as
well answer me, as I will continue to ask until you do so in a
satisfactory manner.
---
Furthermore, I don't care what your English thesaurii (and etc.) say,
it is NOT okay to have a sentence that translates into perfectly good
English as "the camp of the annihilation" and change it to
"extermination camp" and then to "death camp" and then to "sadistic
Nazi baby-murder camp" simply because it pleases you to do so. When
Kremer says, "the camp of the annihilation," he is clearly speaking
of something that is NOT extermination. He himself was sick
emotionally and physically, was he not? In this condition, having
been told that Auschwitz was a terrible place, and having seen the
sanitary conditions (and having been a victim of them as well), it
would not have been unusual for him to paint a bleak picture in his
diary ... which after all is a private document and there is no
reason for him to hide anything from himself ... about the camp
conditions, the poor prisoner health, and the deaths due to typhus,
etc. But this is not extermination! Only by twisting the translation
around can you even begin to make it so.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 777 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 22:57 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 740) ---
> Therefore, as I pointed out before, Armontrout has no knowledge of
what Missouri does or doesn't do regarding their operation of the gas
chamber. In fact, Missouri doesn't even have a working gas chamber
any more so the answer is even more hypothetical than what it appears
on the surface.
.
You sure are reading a lot into Lenski's version of the Zuendel
trial. I thought you had the transcript? Are you telling us that the
transcript makes this no clearer? That Armontrout was called as an
expert witness because he was a nice guy?
.
You are also leaping to a conclusion that is unsupported by what
little Lenski does say about this matter. As I posted in 719:
"Armontrout described for the court, with the aid of slides, the
incredibly complex business of conducting a lethal gassing. He noted
that 38 people 'are closely involved on-site' in such an operation in
Missouri, while more than 200 participate indirectly." Are you saying
that Armontrout was guessing about how many people it might take if
they ever decided to use the gas chamber? Give me a break.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 778 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 22:57 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 741) ---
> In a brochure issued by DEGESCH in 1972 ...
.
Aren't you the one who complained when I made reference to a document
from DuPont that was not contemporaneous? What's this 1972 document
doing here? At the very least you could have pointed out that the
front of the Leuchter Report has a (poor) photo of a small can of
what may be Zyklon B, with a pry-off cap. Let me save you the
trouble. Let me also save you the anxiety of awaiting my reply, which
is that these small tins were probably used for something else (I
have one photo showing the contents of a small can being poured into
a mammal hole), and the big tins used for the industrial
applications.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 779 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 22:58 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 744) ---
Okay. If you don't want to accept my Reader's Digest version of the
Rumanian numbers as evidence that we have to be cautious about
accepting Hilberg's figures, let's go over these Rumanian figures one
more time in a bit more depth. I was hoping to get away from this
because we have already seen that there was no policy of
extermination, not enough time for the extermination, not enough room
for the extermination, no witnesses for the extermination, etc.
However, if you wish to beat this into the ground, we can show that
there were no victims as well.
---
According to Sanning, here are the figures for the Rumanian Jewish
population:
.
692,244 Jewish population in early 1938
- 16,000 Emigration from 1938 through mid-1939
---------
676,244 Jewish population mid-1939
+100,000 Admission of Polish-Jewish refugees (1939)
--------
776,244 Jewish population in September 1939
- 91,000 Polish-Jewish refugees taken over by the USSR 1939
-225,088 Native Rumanian Jews taken over by the USSR 1939
-148,621 Acquired by Hungary
- 412 Acquired by Bulgaria
- 10,700 Emigration 1940
--------
300,423 sub-total
+ 15,086 Persons considered Jewish by def. of 1941 census
--------
315,509 Jewish population, census of April 6, 1941
- 20,000 Emigration April 1941 - end of the war
--------
295,509 Jews in Core-Rumania at end of the war (maximum)
+148,621 Recovery of Transylvania
+ 412 Recovery of southern Dobrudja
- 10,500 Fallen Jews in Hungarian military labor force
- 1,000 Jews failing to return from German camps
--------
433,000 Calculated number of Jews in post-war Rumania
-430,000 "Survivors" according to Hilberg
--------
3,000 "Missing" Jews
---
Thus, the number of Jews who could possibly have been murdered by the
Germans is around 4,000, not the much higher figure Hilberg gives. As
you can see, you would have been better off accepting my statement
that there is some discrepancy. According to the figures shown above,
the "discrepancy" is more like an irreconcilable difference. If the
Germans had a policy of extermination for the Jews, and if they had
all these "gas chambers," and all these crematoria, and all this
efficiency, certainly they could have managed to murder more than
4,000 Rumanian Jews!
---
When you look further into this matter, you see that the total number
of Jewish deaths during the war years is very close to what it would
have been due to natural causes over the same period of time. Once
you subtract out the number of probable deaths by natural causes, you
are left with a very, very small number ... one that not only does
NOT support the mythical 6 million figure, but one that does NOT
support any of the "gas chamber" claims.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 780 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 22:58 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 747) ---
> I did not misquote you.
.
Ah, but you did, and you mischaracterized Mr. Stengel's question to
boot. Let's go back to that original statement, shall we?
.
> There is an inherent "conflict of interest" in utilizing a man like
Fred Leuchter to pass judgment on the mass death gas chambers of the
camps. Leuchter is a "craftsman of death", an "artist" if you will;
analogous to the old pre-industrial age guild craftsmen of Europe. I
am sure Mr. Leuchter takes great professional pride in his work...the
condemned gets truly "personal service" from Mr. Leuchter. When the
industrial revolution started turning out cheap mass produced goods,
the old guild craftsmen probably sneered at the quality of those mass
produced goods; perhaps they even pronounced them unworkable or
whatever. Like our modern Mr. Leuchter, their professional pride was
highly offended... here were some sloppy upstarts cranking out an
inferior product; certainly produced without the loving care and
pride with which they turned out their product! Fred Leuchter cannot
help but be "alienated" by the idea of mass produced executions.
.
This clearly shows that we were discussing (for whatever reason) the
technique of mass executions, not the moral implications, and we were
doing so in 726, not 725 as you stated.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 781 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 22:59 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 748) ---
> Well, that's not exactly what the Leuchter Report says, is it?
> "In Birkenau, Kremas II, III, IV, V are collapsed, or razed to the
foundations..."
.
Are you really sure you have a copy of the Leuchter Report? Your
quote comes from an OVERVIEW of the condition of the buildings, which
appears on page 13 under the heading, "A BRIEF History of the Alleged
German Execution Gas Chambers" (emphasis mine). If you look, starting
on page 16 Mr. Leuchter has separate headings for Krema I, Birkenau,
and Majdanek, in which he goes into greater detail. Here, he tells us
which buildings are still standing, which are not, etc.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 782 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 22:59 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 749) ---
> I believe that you failed to read my message even though you quoted
it into your own message.
.
I did read your message. In it, you were trying to proof that each
"gas chamber" would not have had to endure thousands of gassings
apiece because the gassing load could have been spread among the many
"gas chambers" available. This is an utterly fallacious approach. You
cannot prove one thing on the hypothesis that they might have shared
the load equally while acknowledging that they in fact did not do so,
and could not have done so.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 783 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 22:59 EDT
To B.Eaton (regarding 752) ---
> I believe the 6 million is the difference between the number of
Jews who lived in Europe before 1933 and those who were unaccounted
for when the war ended in '45. It does not matter whether they were
gassed, shot, died of beatings, starvation, typhus, or suffocated in
the cattle cars. They died because of a deliberate policy of
extermination. THAT is the meaning of the Holocaust.
.
You've given us a lot with which to work, here. First, you state that
"you believe." That's fine, but you must admit that your belief does
not make something true. Second, the total number of Jews
"unaccounted for" after the war is around 600,000, according to Carl
Nordling and Walter Sanning, two demographers who have studied this
situation in depth.
.
Third, it does SO matter how these Jews died. There are a lot of
years in the range you mention, and unless I have been misinformed,
Jews die of old age and natural causes just like everyone else.
Certainly you are not blaming these deaths on the Nazis? And what
about the Jews who fought as partisans, or engaged in sabotage, or
criminal acts, and were punished? Is this, too, part of the
"Holocaust?"
.
Fourth, you keep mentioning this deliberate policy of extermination.
It sounds good and plays well to the grandstands, but so far even
Pooh.bah hasn't been able to make this one fly. Let's get some
references for these statements, okay?
.
Finally, you are selectively and unilaterally redefining the meaning
of the word "Holocaust," compared to what I have been taught. I
reject this attempt to gloss over gross inadequacies in the
traditional telling of the Holocaust story. If you need a word to
describe the deaths of all the Jews who died between 1933 and 1945,
make one up. Just don't use the word "Holocaust."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 784 Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 23:00 EDT
To Pat Braden (regarding 753) ---
> Raven tries to make an issue out of the boiling pointy of HCN but
his ignorance of chemistry is showing. Its not the boiling point that
matters but the vapor pressure. Liquid HCN has a very high vapor
pressure even at low temperature. The "handbook of Chemistry and
Physics" (AKA the rubber bible) lists a vapor pressure of 400 mm of
Hg at 10.2 C. By comparison, the vapor pressure of ether is quite a
bit lower and anybody who's ever spilled ether on the floor knows how
fast that evaporates! Also, HCN vapor is considerably less dense than
air (about 0.9 g/l as opposed to 1.3 g/l). Therefore the liquid would
evaporate and fill the room quickly, even in winter. Perhaps Raven
also doesn't believe in entropy. His silliness about explosive
polymerization is just that. Obviously, It can only happen in the
liquid state or at very high vapor concentrations.
.
I have never claimed to be good at chemistry, but I can read. And
what I read tells me that although we may be dealing with HCN gas
once the inert carrier of the Zyklon B releases the gas, the release
of HCN gas from Zyklon B is NOT the same as pouring liquid HCN on the
floor (or anywhere else). Note this well: we are not dealing with a
liquid.
.
As to the silliness about explosive polymerization, DuPont thinks
enough of it to mention it a couple times as a real danger in their
literature on HCN. Even if the Germans did not know about this
property (which is doubtful but barely possible), the behavior of the
HCN gas would hardly have been changed by their lack of knowledge,
and it would have gone right ahead and explosively polymerized if the
conditions had been right.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 785 Wed Apr 08, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:16 EDT
To Daniel Brin (regarding 764) ---
> Mr. Raven: You are ignoring many of Pooh's salient points. She has
explained why skin contact with Zyklon B is not a significant danger.
You have ignored the fact that the workers wore gas masks when they
were killing the lice with the chemical. You have offered no
refutation of Pooh's contention that lice and humans are killed by
vastly different levels of HCN!
.
On the contrary, I am taking her to task about these "salient
points." If skin contact with Zyklon B is not a significant danger,
the producers of the DuPont manual for HCN must be kidding when they
inserted the following under the heading, "Personal Safety and First
Aid":
.
...
"Safety Precautions
"The following are general precautions and procedures necessary to
the safe use of HCN. Detailed procedures must be developed for each
plant....
4. Wear rubber gloves at all times when working on equipment, pumps,
or lines. If HCN liquid is spilled onto the gloves, remove them
immediately and thoroughly wash hands with plenty of water.
5. Do not get HCN on skin or on clothing. In case of contact, call
for help and immediately flush the skin with large quantities of
water while removing contaminated clothing. See First Aid on page 5.
6. Always check the nearest safety shower before starting any job
involving HCN handling. Do not start work unless it is in
satisfactory working condition....
11. Protective clothing, including a rubber suit or chemical suit
with breathable air supply should be worn when breaking connections
in any line or equipment possibly containing HCN....
12. When possible, work on the upwind side. Approach all HCN leaks or
spills from upwind.
.
Now, unless HCN has become much more deadly in the last 45 years, it
would seem that anyone not following these procedures would be in a
world of hurt. Note the instructions that state with an HCN spill on
gloves. Even then the hands must be washed immediately. This is some
serious stuff.
.
Pooh.bah (and you too, for that matter) have often made mention of
the fact that more HCN gas is required to kill lice than men. Yet you
claim that someone who is using HCN to kill lice "immediately" can
run his hands through the Zyklon B, dressed either in his undies or
starkers.
---
> What does Mr. Leuchter have to say about the subject? Does he
actually maintain that comparable concentrations of HCN will kill
lice and humans alike?
.
He does not directly address this issue, however, he does mention
that 300 ppm is rapidly fatal to humans, and he reprints a DEGESCH
Zyklon B manual that mentions that rodents require 1.2 g/m^3, while
larder beetles require twenty times as much. Does this answer your
question? By the way, I have an extra copy of the Leuchter Report,
and if you wish I can send it to you.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 786 Wed Apr 08, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:16 EDT
To Termy (regarding 766) ---
> The amount of gas trapped in the hair would be minimal and subject
to quick dispersion in any air current. This presumes the gassed
victims HAD hair...many didn't.
.
Although I can't recall which account it was, there is a so-called
eyewitness account that mentions that after the gassings the hair was
shorn from the corpses, without the benefit of washing the HCN gas
from the corpses nor length aeration.
---
> Where did Mr. Leuchter obtain his engineering degree? Also, what
criminal record does Mr. Leuchter have & how does it relate to
engineering?
.
I am not sure that Mr. Leuchter has an engineering degree. He has,
however, been working as an engineer for several years. I have not
heard that Mr. Leuchter has a criminal record.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 787 Wed Apr 08, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:17 EDT
To Carl Fink (regarding 768) ---
> Raven, can you cite a reference demonstrating that it takes more
than 15 minutes for the HCN gas to escape from the inert carrier in
Zyclon B?
.
Your question is a little vague. Are you asking if I can cite a
reference for how long it takes for all the HCN to gas off of the
Zyklon B pellets? I don't see how this is important, but I will try
if you will give me the temperature and humidity point at which you
wish to know this. As the Leuchter Report states, the warmer and
drier the weather, the faster the gassing will go. Of course, some
starts to gas off right away, but as the Zyklon B manual states under
the heading, "Stability:"
.
"Liquid PURE HCN is very unstable for which reason only STABILIZED
hydrocyanic acid is marketed. Weak acids or substances splitting off
acids are used as stabilizers. Absorption in porous materials also
has a stabilizing effect." (emphasis in the original)
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 788 Wed Apr 08, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:17 EDT
To Sheri Pierce (regarding 769 - 772) ---
It may interest you to learn that Raul Hilberg testified for the
Crown at the first Zuendel trial, and under cross-examination, this
man who may well be the foremost exterminationist Holocaustician (he
was at the time professor of Political Science at the University of
Vermont) got his ears so thoroughly pinned back that he refused to
appear as a witness at the second Zuendel trial. An example of what
happened follows, from "The Great Holocaust Trial" by Michael
Hoffman. (Doug Christie is Zuendel's lawyer):
.
Christie: Can you give me one scientific report that shows the
existence of gas chambers anywhere in Nazi-occupied territory?
Hilberg: I am at a loss.
Christie: You are because you can't. I want one report, before,
during or after the war that shows that someone was killed by the use
of those gases.
Hilberg: You want an autopsy and I know of no autopsy.
.
I respect the work that Hilberg has put into this subject, but if he
cannot supply us with anything more substantive than the Gerstein
"confession" (as he attempted to do at the Zuendel trial!), we
obviously need to do a lot more work before we get to the bottom of
things.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 789 Wed Apr 08, 1992
TERMY at 07:38 EDT
In reply to: Message 786 G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]
->-> The amount of gas trapped in the hair would be minimal and
->->subject to quick dispersion in any air current. This presumes
->->the gassed victims HAD hair...many didn't.
-> Although I can't recall which account it was, there is a so
->called eyewitness account that mentions that after the gassings
->the hair was shorn from the corpses, without the benefit of
->washing the HCN gas from the corpses nor length aeration.
1. According to the eyewitness accounts, who was tasked with cutting the hair
off gassing victims?
2. Your comment is specifically invited upon the first sentence in my
statement, as shown above, regarding the amount of HCN which would be trapped
in the hair.
3. Concerning other points I touched upon in my post #766, especially those
regarding the physiological aspects of expression of gases from the lungs of
deceased persons, you made no comment. Do you care to comment or will you
concede the issue?
---
Re Mr. Leuchter:
1. Does Mr. Leuchter have an engineering degree? If you cannot remember, it
might be advisable to either review Pooh's posts concerning his education, or,
since you apparently can contact him directly, ask him yourself.
2. In the same fashion as outlined above, I would ask that you ascertain
whether or not Mr. Leuchter has appeared before the court concerning his
possession (or, more correctly, lack thereof) of an engineering license.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 790 Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:00 EDT
773 Raven:
> The report was apparently made public by someone other than Mr. Lueftl,
> although Mr. Lueftl stands behind his report.
Seeing as Mr. Leuftl has denied giving anyone his report and has stated that
he doesn't associate with "such circles," I would hardly call that standing
behind the report which was made public. After all, there is no verification
that the report made public was HIS.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 791 Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:00 EDT
776 Raven:
> When Kremer says, "the camp of the annihilation," he is clearly speaking
> of something that is NOT extermination.
From Cassell's German-English Dictionary:
"Vernichtung: extermination, annihilation, extinction, destruction."
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 792 Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:01 EDT
777 Raven:
> Are you saying that Armontrout was guessing about how many people it might
> take if they ever decided to use the gas chamber?
Yes.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 793 Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:03 EDT
778 Raven:
> What's this 1972 document doing here?
It is a clear demonstration that even in 1972 Degesch did not think that
contact with skin was serious enough to require gloves or special suits.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 794 Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:03 EDT
779 Raven:
> According to Sanning, here are the figures for the Rumanian Jewish
> population:
Here you go comparing apples and oranges again.
Sanning's figures (which are inaccurate anyway) are for Romania with its 1947
borders. Hilberg's are for Romania with its 1937 borders. Big difference,
wouldn't you say?
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 795 Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:04 EDT
781 Raven:
> Are you really sure you have a copy of the Leuchter Report?
Yes, I'm sure that I have a copy of the Leucther Report. As I said when I
first referred to the report:
> There are different published editions of the Leuchter Report and the page
> numbers do not coincide from edition to edition. Therefore, I will cite
> the page number for the quotes I use but these page numbers might not be
> the same as other editions.
I find nothing in the "Birkenau - Kremas II, III, IV and V" which contradicts
what Leuchter said on my page 8: "In Birkeanu, Kermas II, III, IV, V are
collapsed, or rzed to the foundations."
In the "Birkenau" section, Leucther states: "The included drawings were
generated from original blueprints obtained at the Auschwitz State Museum and
observations made and measurements taken on location."
And, under the section, "Design and Procedures at the Alleged Execution Gas
Chamber" we read: "Kremas I, II, III, IV and V are described historically and
on inspection were verified to have been CONVERTED [emphasis mine] mortuaries
or morgues connected and housed in the same facility as crematories."
Now, no where does Mr. Leuchter enlighten us as to what his inspection
verified these structures to have been CONVERTED into....yet, he does
indicate that his inspection and the historical description agree. Therefore,
we are left to conclude that he agrees with the historical description that
these structures were CONVERTED into gas chambers.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 796 Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:05 EDT
782 Raven:
> I did read your message. In it, you were trying to proof that each
> "gas chamber" would not have had to endure thousands of gassings
> apiece because the gassing load could have been spread among the many
> "gas chambers" available.
Sorry, you missed the point. That's what happens when you take a message out
of a thread between two people. Hans-Peter had made an unsubstantiated claim
of "thousands" of times the gas chamber (notice the singular) was used. I
asked him to support that statement. He then did so by operating on the
assumption that 1/3 of the 1 million who were killed at Auschwitz were gassed
AND the assumption that only one gas chamber was used.
I then illustrated how the "thousands" of times used was fallacious because
even when assuming that all 1 million were gassed (which was not the case)
that no gas chamber would have had to be used a thousand times. This
illustration encompassed a second assumption that also "was not the case"
but, when accounting for the greatly exaggerated first assumption (i.e. 1
million gassed), the second assumption brings the overall picture back into
line with reality.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 797 Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:06 EDT
783 Raven:
> ...the total number of Jews "unaccounted for" after the war is around
> 600,000, according to Carl Nordling and Walter Sanning, two demographers
> who have studied this situation in depth.
Let's look at what others have said about Sanning's work, shall we?
"....clever veneer of scholarship.....has all the superficial attributes of
a factual analysis...identify its flaws..." Professor Henry Huttenback, CCNY.
"....a piece of sophisticated Holocaust denial....expose many of the errors
in this work." Professor John S. Conway, University of British Columbia.
And, these are the "blurbs" that the publisher (IHR) chose to put on the
jacket!
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 798 Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:06 EDT
784 Raven:
> As to the silliness about explosive polymerization, DuPont thinks
> enough of it to mention it a couple times as a real danger in their
> literature on HCN. Even if the Germans did not know about this
> property (which is doubtful but barely possible), the behavior of the
> HCN gas would hardly have been changed by their lack of knowledge,
> and it would have gone right ahead and explosively polymerized if the
> conditions had been right.
Well, you have admitted to not being a chemist. Maybe we should look at what
a chemist has to say:
"In the Leuchter report the gas concentration is stated as 0.32% and higher
concentrations where the gas was introduced. When an explosive gas mixture
fills only a small part of a room or is allowed to escape into the air, there
would be no explosion."
Josef Bailer, PhD
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 799 Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:08 EDT
785 Raven:
> On the contrary, I am taking her to task about these "salient
> points." If skin contact with Zyklon B is not a significant danger,
> the producers of the DuPont manual for HCN must be kidding when they
> inserted the following under the heading, "Personal Safety and First
> Aid":
Once again you are trying to compare apples and oranges. DuPont has to worry
about law suits and OSHA. Most US companies provide warnings greatly in
excess
of what is needed just to protect themselves against law suits. OSHA, of
course, is a different matter altogether.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 800 Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:08 EDT
786 Raven:
> Although I can't recall which account it was, there is a so-called
> eyewitness account that mentions that after the gassings the hair was
> shorn from the corpses, without the benefit of washing the HCN gas
> from the corpses nor length aeration.
This was only true for those gassed directly upon arrival. Those who were
selected after having been in the camp system had already had their heads
shaved.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 801 Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:09 EDT
788 Raven:
> It may interest you to learn that Raul Hilberg testified for the
> Crown at the first Zuendel trial, and under cross-examination, this
> man who may well be the foremost exterminationist Holocaustician (he
> was at the time professor of Political Science at the University of
> Vermont) got his ears so thoroughly pinned back that he refused to
> appear as a witness at the second Zuendel trial.
Actually, Raul Hilberg had committments which he had to fulfill as a
professor at the Univeristy of Vermont and was unable to attend the second
trial.
This is yet another example of the spin doctors at work.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 802 Wed Apr 08, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 20:54 EDT
AH.STEIN...message 767
Historians usually don't use the encyclopedia as a source, but the
encyclopedia usually reports what is believed to be true at the time of
publication. If you don't like Funk & Wagnall, there are the big name products
such as Britannica and Groliers which all had the Auschwitz 4 million. I know
because we have these publications in our school.
I read and understood Pooh.Bah's messages perfectly well. (I do wish that you
could be a little less patronizing in your posts.) In this instance she is
wrong. The 4 million for Auschwitz obviously WAS the accepted figure for a
lengthy period of time, along with the 6 million total. The Jewish community
complained loudly enough when the Polish government replaced the signs at the
Auschwitz museum with signs showing smaller numbers. Now 1.1 million is the
accepted figure for Auschwitz, but according to you, this does not affect the
totals.
As a matter of fact, the camp records don't support even the 1.1 million, but
suggest fewer than 100 thousand fatalities at this camp.
I suspect, however, that no amount of research will make any difference since
your mind is closed on this topic. The 6 million has become a religious dogma
and any adjustments have become a heresy. This whole business is starting to
have the same taste as a debate with the so-called "scientific creationists".
One could throw a dead fish at their feet and they would argue that it is
alive, despite all evidence to the contrary.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 803 Wed Apr 08, 1992
J.WEIR9 at 21:48 EDT
RE: S.PIERCE6 / Suchomel interview messages.
I have several problems with the content of this interview. 1)
Suchomel states the gas chambers at Treblinka were at the top of a slope. The
area around there is very flat. I may be wrong, but I don't think there is a
slope there. 2) Suchomel states the gas chambers there were fed by the engine
of a tank. He also states a trainload could be processed in three hours or
less. A tank engine would be a diesel engine. It would take much more time
than that to kill two batches (men, then women, & children) using diesel
exhaust. The CO content of which is less than 1 percent. In fact, the idea of
using a diesel for such a purpose is stupid. 3) Suchomel says Auschwitz was
a "factory" vs. the Treblinka "production line" which was more "primitive".
If Treblinka was so primitive, why is it credited with destroying 840,000
people in quite a bit less time than Auschwitz is sup- posed to have killed a
little more than a million? 4) Suchomel claims corpses burn very well with a
little rubbish, gasoline and paper. This is nonsense. It requires large
amounts of fuel to destroy a body. Take a look at the photos of the pyres
constructed for the victims of Dresden and you will see what I mean. 5) I have
a hard time believing the women would quietly stand around waiting their turn
to go into the gas chambers. . Considering the situation in which the
interview took place, is there any rea- son to consider this testimony any
more reliable than a lot of the other tes- timony concerning the extermination
of the Jews of Europe?
[Chigger]
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 804 Wed Apr 08, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 23:29 EDT
>> Furthermore, I don't care what your English thesaurii (and etc.)
>>[sic] say, it is NOT okay to have a sentence that translates into
>>perfectly good English as "the camp of the annihilation" and
>>change it to "extermination camp" and then to "death camp" and
>>then to "sadistic Nazi baby-murder camp" simply because it
>>pleases you to do so. When Kremer says, "the camp of the
>>annihilation," he is clearly speaking of something that is NOT
>>extermination.
Please, Raven - this is just silly. The German word translates correctly
EITHER WAY - as "extermination" or "annihilation". And despite your false and
misleading use of quotes, Pooh nowhere translates the words as "sadistic Nazi
baby-murder camp". Try to stick to the actual discussion.
>> You are also leaping to a conclusion that is unsupported by what
>> little Lenski does say about this matter. As I posted in 719:
>>"Armontrout described for the court, with the aid of slides, the
>> incredibly complex business of conducting a lethal gassing. He
>>noted that 38 people 'are closely involved on-site' in such an
>>operation in Missouri, while more than 200 participate
>>indirectly." Are you saying that Armontrout was guessing about
>>how many people it might take if they ever decided to use the gas
>>chamber? Give me a break.
Yes. If he hasn't done it, he's guessing. He may be guessing based on
actual plans - but those plans are guesses, just as if you or I or Leuchter or
any other nonexpert had made them.
Raven, your 785: you are reading a lot into DuPont's safety regulations,
which from the phrasing, seem to be talking about huge quantities. In any
case, they are most certainly more worried about lawsuits and employee
injuries than the Nazis were - the Nazis were only risking the lives of Jews.
As a science-type myself, I point out that in the real world, people tend to
ignore most safety regulations. I myself have worked with quantities of
formaldehyde that are now considered far too dangerous to be allowed, and
splashed myself with several acids (clumsy people like me still have to do lab
work). It is the function and nature of a safety manual to overstate dangers.
Raven, your 787: well, I'd like a reference on the evaporation rate of HCN
from Zyclon B because if the tin is empty in 5 minutes, it indicates that the
gas could spread through the execution chamber and kill everyone fairly
easily, whereas if it requires 12 hours, obviously nobody was gassed with
Zyclon B. Why not give a range of temperatures, say from 10C to 35C (both of
which probably ocurred at different times as OUTDOOR temperatures at the
camps).
By the way, the Zyclon B manual makes no sense when it talks about using
"weak acids" as stabilizers - any acid at all will cause HCN to become gaseous
faster, as I recall. They may mean something like "salts of weak acids", in
other words "weak bases" - although I don't think that'd work either, on
second thought. In fact, I can't imagine what they do mean. (What in the
world are "substances splitting off acids"?)
Hans-Peter, your 802: the encyclopedias, even the famous Brittanica, are
full of totally wrong nonsense. If it were on- topic, I could send pages and
pages of encyclopedic mistakes. Figures in encyclopedias are just not the same
as the "accepted figure used by scholars". They just aren't.
I rather resent being compared to a Creationist, sir. As a science teacher
and neo-biologist, I have spent a fair amount of time and effort fighting
those [insult deleted]. If you look at this topic, you'll notice that the
scholars are not exactly in agreement with the Deniers.
Carl Fink
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 805 Wed Apr 08, 1992
D.BRIN1 at 23:40 EDT
Now, now, Hans-Peter (Message 802): Your message appears to imply that those
plaques at Auschwitz stated that four million Jews were killed at Auschwitz.
Do you know this to be so?
Mr. Raven: Once again you have dodged the obvious conclusion... the ONLY
logical conclusion that can be made of Fred Leuchter's "analysis" of
Auschwitz. The core of his argument is his comparison of the delousing
chambers with the homicidal gas chambers, and this comparison is rendered
meaningless by his failure to comprehend that the two sets of chambers were
exposed to VASTLY different amounts of gas, under vastly different conditions.
Your first response was to this point was to deny that little bugs could "root
around" the stuff for hours without dying. Now you have posted a strategic
retreat, not quite denying this fact, but not quite admitting it either. The
closest you have come to an admission is a citation of Leuchter's concession
that, well, yes, SOME bugs are more resistant to cyanide gas than humans.
Hmmm..... I just noticed that, if Pooh.Bah's quotation of Fred Leuchter
(message 795) is correct, then the homicidal chambers were housed in the
same facilities as the crematoria. Let's see now. It gets mighty hot around
crematoria, doesn't it?
Looks like the Denial Fantasy is running out of time.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 806 Wed Apr 08, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 23:54 EDT
J.WEIR9 [CHIGGER]
My advice to you would be to check out the SHOAH video series, which shows the
Treblinka slopes in question as well as the corroborating statements of others
who were not present during the Suchomel interview, but who were part of the
Treblinka "production line".
>> Considering the situation in which the interview took place, is there any
reason to consider this testimony any more reliable than a lot of the other
testimony concerning the extermination of the Jews of Europe?
What situation is it that we should be considering? Suchomel is a former Nazi
SS Unterscharfuhrer who gave an interview of his own volition.
>> A tank engine would be a diesel engine. It would take much more time than
that to kill two batches (men, then women, & children) using diesel exhaust.
If they weren't dead, more's the pity ...
"I remember once they were still alive. The ovens were full, and the people
lay on the ground. They were all moving,they were coming back to life, and
when they were thrown into the ovens they were all conscious. Alive. They
could feel the fire burn them." (Shoah)
>> Suchomel claims corpses burn very well with a little rubbish, gasoline and
paper. This is nonsense.
Suchomel said nothing about "a little." That was your invention. It doesn't
strike me as nonsense. The fire was burning constantly in the pit.
>> If Treblinka was so primitive, why is it credited with destroying 840,000
people in quite a bit less time than Auschwitz is supposed to have killed a
little more than a million?
Suchomel makes the point that Treblinka's relative primitiveness did not
hinder its efficacy.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 807 Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 00:05 EDT
Apparently the decimation of European Jewry has been relegated by a few of our
esteemed participants here, to an esoteric chemistry debate dominated by some
highly "motivated" non-scientists. What is it that compels you to discard the
judgement of the experts? This is an insult to my intelligence, to which I
will not continue to subject myself.
One of you asserts, in the presence of an expert, that since an encyclopedia
entry contains two high profile numbers - 6 million and 4 million - one must
be a subset of the other. Kindly produce from a credible source, a summation
of the 6 million that includes this mistaken 4 million. If you are correct,
that shouldn't be too difficult. Of course our own expert Pooh.Bah says the
Polish authorities were merely bringing their memorials into accord with
historical evidence - historical evidence which continues to support the
estimated 5.1 to 6 million Jewish victims of the Holocaust.
I renew my question to the doubting Thomases among you, have you seen the
film, SHOAH? In nine and half hours without a single frame of attrocity
newsreels, the reality of the Holocaust is confirmed. Leaving aside the
Jewish survivors, what say you of the German SS, Polish, Czech, etc.,
participants and witnesses? What say you of the railroad records, the diaries,
the documents, the evidence that there used to be a European Jewry which is no
more? Did any of you bother to watch the attocity film, A PAINFUL REMINDER?
Before I PER IGN this subject, I leave you with another series of Lanzmann's
interviews in SHOAH. Nazi extermination of the Jews started long before
Auschwitz. Mr. Hans-Peter, according to your encyclopedia, how many Jews died
in the Warsaw ghetto?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 808 Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 00:07 EDT
Dr. Franz Grassler (Germany), deputy to Dr. Auerswald, Nazi commissioner of
the Warsaw ghetto
Lanzmann: You don't remember those days?
Grassler: Not much. I recall more clearly my prewar mountaineering trips than
the entire war period and those days in Warsaw. All in all, those were bad
times. It's a fact: we tend to forget, thank God, the bad times more easily
than the good. The bad times are repressed.
Lanzmann: I'll help you remember. In Warsaw you were Dr. Auerswald's deputy.
Grassler: Yes.
Lanzmann: Dr. Auerswald was. . .
Grassler: . . . commissioner of the "Jewish district" of Warsaw.
Lanzmann: Dr. Grassler, this is Czerniakow's diary. [Adam Czerniakow was
president of the Judenrat (Jewish Council) of Warsaw.] You're mentioned in it.
Grassler: It's been printed, it exists?
Lanzmann: He kept a diary that was recently published. He wrote on July 7,
1941 . . .
Grassler: July 7, 1941? That's the first time I've relearned a date. May I
take notes? After all, it interests me too. So in July I was already there!
Lanzmann: He wrote on July 7 1941: ". . . morning at the Community," that is,
at the Jewish Council headquarters, ". . . and later with Auerswald,
Schlosser . . . "
Grassler: Schlosser was . . .
Lanzmann: ". . . and Grassler, on routine matters." That's the first time. . .
Grassler: . . . that my name is mentioned? Yes, but there were three of us.
Schlosser was in . . . the "economic department." I think he had to do with
economics.
Lanzmann: And the second time was on July 22.
Grassler: He wrote every day?
Lanzmann: Yes, every day. It's quite amazing . . . .
Grassler: That the diary was saved. It's amazing that it was saved.
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Category 15, Topic 9
Message 809 Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 00:07 EDT
Lanzmann: Did you go into the ghetto?
Grassler: Seldom. When I had to visit Czerniakow.
Lanzmann: What were the conditions like?
Grassler: Awful. Yes, appalling. I never went back when I saw what it was
like. Unless I had to. In the whole period I think I only went once or twice.
We at the Commission tried to maintain the ghetto for its labor force, and
especially to prevent epidemics, like typhus. That was the big danger.
Lanzmann: Yes. Can you tell us about typhus?
Grassler: I'm not a doctor. I only know that typhus is a very dangerous
epidemic that wipes people out like the plague, and that it can't be confined
to a ghetto. If typhus had broken out -- I don't think it did, but there was
fear that it might -- it would have hit the Poles and the Germans.
Why was there typhus in the ghetto? I don't know if there was, but there was a
danger, because of the famine. People didn't get enough to eat. That's what
was so awful. We at the Commission did our best to feed the ghetto, so it
wouldn't become an incubator of epidemics. Aside from humanitarian factors,
that's what mattered. If typhus had broken out -- and it didn't -- it wouldn't
have stopped at the ghetto.
Lanzmann: Czerniakow also wrote that one of the reasons the ghetto was walled
in was because of this German fear.
Grassler: Yes, absolutely! Fear of typhus.
Lanzmann: He said the Germans always associated Jews with typhus.
Grassler: Maybe. I'm not sure if there were grounds for it. But imagine that
mass of people packed into the ghetto. There weren't only the Warsaw Jews,
but others who came later. The danger kept on growing.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 810 Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 00:08 EDT
Lanzmann: The Germans had a policy on the Warsaw ghetto. What was that policy?
Grassler: You're asking more than I know. The policy that wound up with
extermination, the "final solution" -- we knew nothing about it, of course.
Our job was to maintain the ghetto and try to preserve the Jews as a work
force. The Commissariat's goal in fact, was very different from the one that
later led to extermination.
Lanzmann: Yes, but do you know how many people died in the ghetto each month
in 1941?
Grassler: I don't know now, if I ever knew.
Lanzmann: But you did know. There are exact figures.
Grassler: I probably knew . . .
Lanzmann: Yes. Five thousand a month.
Grassler: Five thousand a month? Yes, well . . .
Lanzmann: That's a lot.
Grassler: That's a lot, of course. But there were far too many people in the
ghetto. That was it.
Lanzmann: Far too many.
Grassler: Far too many.
Lanzmann: My question is philosophical. What does a ghetto mean, in your
opinion?
Grassler: History is full of ghettos, going back centuries, for all I know.
Persecution of the Jews wasn't a German invention, and it didn't start with
World War II. The Poles persecuted them too.
Lanzmann: But a ghetto like Warsaw's, in a great capital, in the heart of the
city . . .
Grassler: That was unusual.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 811 Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 00:08 EDT
Lanzmann: You say you wanted to maintain the ghetto.
Grassler: Our mission wasn't to annihilate the ghetto, but to keep it alive,
to maintain it.
Lanzmann: What does "alive" mean in such conditions?
Grassler: That was the problem. That was the whole problem.
Lanzmann: But people were dying in the streets. There were bodies everywhere.
Grassler: Exactly. That was the paradox.
Lanzmann: You see it as a paradox?
Grassler: I'm sure of it.
Lanzmann: Why? Can you explain?
Grassler: No.
Lanzmann: Why not?
Grassler: Explain what! But the fact is . . .
Lanzmann: That wasn't "maintaining"! Jews were being exterminated daily in the
ghetto. Czerniakow wrote . . .
Grassler: To maintain it properly we'd have needed more substantial rations
and less crowding.
Lanzmann: Why weren't the rations more humane? Why weren't they? That was a
German decision, wasn't it?
Grassler: There was no real decision to starve the ghetto. The big decision to
exterminate came much later.
Lanzmann: That's right, later. In 1942.
Grassler: Precisely!
Lanzmann: A year later.
Grassler: Just so. Our mission, as I recall it, was to manage the ghetto, and
naturally with those inadequate rations and the over-crowding, a high, even
excessive death rate was inevitable.
Lanzmann: Yes. What does "maintain" the ghetto mean in such conditions: the
food, sanitation, etc.? What could the Jews do against such measures?
Grassler: They couldn't do anything.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 812 Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 00:09 EDT
Lanzmann: Why did Czerniakow commit suicide?
Grassler: Because he realized there was no future for the ghetto. He probably
saw before I did that the Jews would be killed. I suppose the Jews already had
their excellent secret services. They were too well informed, better than we
were.
Lanzmann: Think so?
Grassler: Yes, I do.
Lanzmann: The Jews knew more than you?
Grassler: I'm convinced of it!
Lanzmann: lt's hard to believe.
Grassler: The German administration was never informed of what would happen to
the Jews.
Lanzmann: When was the first deportation to Treblinka?
Grassler: Before Auerswald's suicide, I think.
Lanzmann: Auerswald's?
Grassler: I mean Czerniakow's. Sorry.
Lanzmann: July 22.
Grassler: Those are dates . . . So the deportations began July 22, 1942.
Lanzmann: Yes.
Grassler: To Treblinka.
Lanzmann: And Czerniakow killed himself July 23.
Grassler: Yes, that is the next day. So that was it: he'd realized that his
idea -- it was his idea, I think, of working in good faith with the Germans,
in the Jews' best interests -- he'd realized this idea, this dream, was
destroyed.
Lanzmann: That the idea was a dream.
Grassler: Yes. And when the dream faded, he took the logical way out.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 813 Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 00:09 EDT
Lanzmann: Did you think this idea of a ghetto was a good one? A sort of self-
management?
Grassler: That's right.
Lanzmann: A mini-state?
Grassler: It worked well.
Lanzmann: But it was self-management for death, wasn't it?
Grassler: We know that now. But at the time . . .
Lanzmann: Even then!
Grassler: No!
Lanzmann: Czerniakow wrote: "We're puppets, we have no power."
Grassler: Yes.
Lanzmann: "No power."
Grassler: Sure . . . that was . . .
Lanzmann: You Germans were the overlords.
Grassler: Yes.
Lanzmann: The overlords. The masters.
Grassler: Obviously.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 814 Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 00:10 EDT
Lanzmann: Czerniakow was merely a tool.
Grassler: Yes, but a good tool. Jewish self-management worked well, I can tell
you.
Lanzmann: lt worked well for three years: 1941, 1942, 1943. . . two and a half
years. And in the end . . .
Grassler: In the end . . .
Lanzmann: "Worked well" for what? To what end?
Grassler: For self-preservation.
Lanzmann: No! For death!
Grassler: Yes, but . . .
Lanzmann: Self-management, self-preservation . . . for death!
Grassler: That's easy to say now.
Lanzmann: You admitted the conditions were inhuman. Atrocious . . . horrible!
Grassler: Yes.
Lanzmann: So it was clear even then . . .
Grassler: No! Extermination wasn't clear. Now we see the result.
Lanzmann: Extermination isn't so simple. One step was taken, then another, and
another, and another. . .
Grassler: Yes.
Lanzmann: But to understand the process, one must. . .
Grassler: I repeat: extermination did not take place in the ghetto, not ar
first. Only with the evacuations.
Lanzmann: Evacuations?
Grassler: The evacuations to Treblinka. The ghetto could have been wiped out
with weapons, as was finally done after the rebellion. After I'd left. But at
the start . . . Mr. Lanzmann, this is getting us nowhere. We're reaching no
new conclusions.
Lanzmann: I don't think we can.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 815 Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 00:10 EDT
Grassler: I didn't know then what I know now.
Lanzmann: You weren't a nonentity.
Grassler: But I was!
Lanzmann: You were important.
Grassler: You overestimate my role.
Lanzmann: No. You were second to the commissioner of the Warsaw "Jewish
district."
Grassler: But I had no power.
Lanzmann: lt was something.
You were part of the vast German power structure.
Grassler: Correct. But a small part. You overestimate the authority of a
deputy of twenty-eight then.
Lanzmann: You were thirty.
Grassler: Twenty-eight.
Lanzmann: At thirty you were mature.
Grassler: Yes, but for a lawyer who got his degree at twenty-seven, it's just
a beginning.
Lanzmann: You had a doctorate.
Grassler: The title proves nothing.
Lanzmann: Did Auerswald have one too?
Grassler: No. But the title's irrelevant.
Lanzmann: Doctor of Law . . . What did you do after the war?
Grassler: I was with a mountaineering publishing house. I wrote and published
mountain guide books. I published a mountain climbers' magazine.
Lanzmann: Is climbing your main interest?
Grassler: Yes.
Lanzmann: The mountains, the air. . .
Grassler: Yes.
Lanzmann: The sun, the pure air. . .
Grassler: Not like the ghetto air.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 816 Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 00:11 EDT
From SHOAH, Excerpt of Lanzmann's interview of historian Raul Hilberg
Hilberg: Adam Czerniakow began keeping a diary the very first week of the war,
before the Germans entered Warsaw, and before he took over the responsibility
of leading the Jewish community, and he kept his diary in daily entries until
the afternoon of the day that he ended his life. He left us a window through
which we can observe a Jewish community, the terminal hours of its life, a
dying community, which began dying, from the beginning. And in that sense Adam
Czerniakow did something very important. He didn't save the Jews --in that
respect he was like other Jewish leaders-- but he left us a record of what had
happened to them in a day-by-day fashion. And you could see that he did all
this on top of working a seven day week, for he was a man without vacations,
without any day off. And yet every day, almost every day, he had an entry. He
might record the weather, where he went in the morning, and then all the
things that happened. But he never failed to write. That was something that
moved him, pushed him, compelled him throughout the years --almost three years-
- of his life under the Germans, and in that sense perhaps because he wrote in
such a prosaic style we now know what went on in his mind, how things were
perceived, recognized, reacted to. We even know from what he didn't say just
what it is that went through this community. There are constant references in
the diary to the end. He talks in terms of Greek mythology, and he refers to
himself as wearing a poisoned cloak, as Hercules once did. He has a feeling of
doom for the Jews or Warsaw, and there were remarkable passages in the diary
that illustrate what he meant. He is sarcastic enough if that is the word, to
remark in December of 1941 that now the intelligentsia were starving to death.
And he even has . . .
Lanzmann: Why does he mentions specifically the intelligentsia?
Hilberg: He mentions it because there is a difference, owing to the class
structure within the ghetto, in vulnerability to starvation. The lower classes
died first. The middle class died a little bit later. The intelligentsia were
of course at the top of the middle class, and once they started dying the
situation was really very, very bad. And that's the meaning of that. Now we're
dealing with a ghetto where the average consumption was about 1200 calories,
you see. He mentions with approval, with approval, that one petitioner came
to him for money and said: "I want money not in order to eat, I want money for
rent, to pay the rent for my apartment. I don't want to die in the street."
This is the kind of comment that Czerniakow writes down in his diary: the
meaning of dignity, the approval.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 817 Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 00:12 EDT
Lanzmann: You mean he spoke of a petition from somebody? He said: "Give me
money"?
Hilberg: Yes, but not for food. "Give me money so that I can pay the rent,
because I don't want to die in the street." There were people dropping dead in
the street. They were covered with newspaper.
Lanzmann: Why was housing more important to him than food?
Hilberg: This particular individual wasn't eating enough to remain alive, and
didn't want to be dying of hunger while collapsing in the street.
Lanzmann: This means that death was not avoidable, as was dying outside?
Hilberg: Of course, of course, of course. It is one of these sardonic jokes of
which he had quite a few. He always had strange description: of a band playing
in front of a funeral parlor, of a hearse with drunken drivers, of a dead
child running around the grounds. He had rather sardonic comments about death.
He lived with death.
There was a lady somewhere in Warsaw in love with a man, and the man was hit,
grievously wounded, with his insides coming out. This woman stuffed the
insides back with her own hands. She carried the man to a first-aid station.
He died. He was buried in a mass grave. She disinterred him and buried him.
This, to Czerniakow--this simple episode--as the ultimate of virtue.
Lanzmann: He is never revolted?
Hilberg: He doesn't bother. Or he doesn't express the revolt; he doesn't
express the disgust except with other Jews, Jews who either deserted the
community by emigrating early, or Jews who like Ganzweich collaborated with
the Germans. And for the Germans he doesn't have words of disgust. I think
he's beyond such words. He hasn't any criticism of the Germans themselves, and
only seldom allows himself to make a remark which indicates that he opposed
something by arguing. He very seldom argues with the Germans. He pleads, he
appeals, but he doesn't argue with them. He does argue when he's forced not
only to build the wall but to pay for it. And he says that if the wall is
being put up as a hygienic measure to prevent Jewish epidemics from engulfing
the Polish or German population outside, then why is it, why is it that the
Jews have to pay for it? The people who get the protection should be paying
for the medicine. If the wall is medicine, let the Germans pay. And Auerswald,
the ghetto commissar, says that's a very nice argument that he, Czerniakow,
might bring up at an international conference some day, but for now he'll pay
for the wall. Czerniakow writes all this down, including Auerswald's reply to
his own argument. And that's about the most he ever allows himself to say in
criticism of what the Germans are doing. So he takes for granted, he assumes,
he anticipates everything that is happening to the Jews, including the worst.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 818 Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 00:13 EDT
Lanzmann: Czerniakow saw a film before the war where the captain of a sinking
ship gives an order to the orchestra to play jazz. In the entry of July 8,
1942, not even two weeks before his death, he identifies himself with this
captain of the sinking ship.
Hilberg: Yes, yes . . .
Lanzmann: Of course there is no jazz but there is a kind of children's
festival. . .
Hilberg: Chess tournaments, yes. There's theater, a children's festival,
there's everything going on until the last moment. But more importantly, these
are symbols. These outward cultural activities, these festivals, they're nor
simply morale-building devices, which is what Czerniakow identifies them to
be. Rather, they are symbolic of the entire posture of the ghetto, which is in
the process of healing or trying to heal sick people who are soon going to be
gassed, which is vying to educate youngsters who will never be growing up,
which is in the process of trying to find work for people and increase
employment in a situation which is doomed to failure. They are going on as
though life were continuing. They have an official faith in the survivability
of the ghetto, even after all indications are to the contrary. The strategy
continues to be: "We must continue, for this is the only strategy that is
left. We must minimize the injury, minimize the damage, minimize the losses,
but we must continue." And continuity is the only thing in all oz this.
Lanzmann: But obviously when he compares himself to this captain of a sinking
ship, he knows that everything . . .
Hilberg: He knows, he knows. I think he knew or he sensed or he believed the
end was coming, perhaps as early as October 1941, when he has a note about
alarming rumors as to the fate of Warsaw Jewry in the spring. This is also
when Bischoff, the head of the transfer office, tells him that, after all, the
ghetto is only a temporary device, without specifying for what. He knows
because in January he has premonitions or reports or rumors about Lithuanians
coming. He is concerned when Auerswald disappears and is going to Berlin,
right around January so, 1942, which we now know to have been the date of the
"final solution" conference in Berlin, the Wannasee Conference. And even
though Czerniakow in Warsaw, behind the walls, has no idea of such a
conference going on in Berlin, yet he is concerned that Auerswald, the ghetto
commissar, is going to Berlin. He can't imagine why, unless it is for a
purpose that bodes no good. And so in February there are more rumors. In March
the rumors are becoming even more specific. He now begins to record the
departure of Jews from the Lublin ghetto, or Mielec, or Krakow, and Lvov. And
he recognizes that something may well be in the offing for Warsaw itself. And
every subsequent entry is replete with the anxiety that he feels.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 819 Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 00:13 EDT
Lanzmann: When Czerniakow hears rumors about the deportations from Lublin,
Lvov, and Krakow around March 1942 -- and we now, know that the transports
went to Belzec -- does he ask in his diary where they are shipped, what
happens to them?
Hilberg: He never does. He never mentions any destination. But we cannot
really decide that he had no knowledge whatsoever about these camps. All we
know is that he didn't mention them in the diary. And we also know, of course,
from other sources that the existence of death camps was already known in
Warsaw, certainly by June.
Lanzmann: The last entry takes place how long before his suicide? The last
entry precedes his death by a few hours. What does be write?
Hilberg: "It is three o'clock. So far four thousand are ready to go. The
orders are that there must be nine thousand by four o'clock." This is the last
entry of a man on the afternoon of the day that he commits suicide.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 820 Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 00:14 EDT
Lanzmann: The first transport of the Jews of Warsaw for Treblinka was the
twenty-second of July, 1942, and he committed suicide the day after.
Hilberg: That's right. In other words, on the twenty-second, you see, on the
twenty-second he is called in by Sturmbahnfuehrer Hofle, who was in charge of
the resettlement staff, who has come in there for the express purpose of
taking the Jews out of Warsaw. Hofle tells him on the twenty-second, ... And
here,incidentally, is another fascinating point: Czerniakow is so agitated
that he doesn't put the dates down correctly-instead of saying July 22, 1942,
he says July 22, 1940. Hofle calls him in at ten o'clock, disconnects the
telephones, children are removed from the playground opposite the community
building, and then he is told that all Jews irrespective of sex and age, with
certain exceptions, will be deported to the east. To the east. Again the east.
And that by 4 P.M. today a contingent of six thousand people must be provided.
And this at the minimum will be the daily quota. Now he is told that at ten in
the morning of July 22, 1942. He then goes on. He keeps appealing. He wants
certain exemptions. He wants the council staff to be exempt. He wants the
staff of the welfare organizations to be exempt, and he is terribly worried
that the orphans will be deported, and repeatedly brings up the orphans. And
on the next day he still doesn't have assurance that the orphans are going to
be saved. Now if he cannot be the caretaker of the orphans, then he has lost
his war, he has lost his struggle.
Lanzmann: Why the orphans?
Hilberg: They are the most helpless element in the community. They are the
little children, its future, who have lost their parents. They cannot possibly
do anything on their own. If the orphans do not have exemption, if he doesn't
even get the promise, the words spoken by a German SS officer, not even
assurances which as he knows cannot be counted, if he cannot even get the
words, what can he think? If he cannot take care of the children, what else
can he do?
Some people report that he wrote a note after he closed the book on the diary
in which he said: "They want me to kill the children with my own hands."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 821 Thu Apr 09, 1992
P.BRADEN [pat.b] at 00:40 EDT
Raven says; "I have never claimed to be good at chemistry, but I can read. And
what I read tells me that although we may be dealing with HCN gas once the
inert carrier of the Zyklon-B releases the gas, the release of HCN gas is not
the same as pouring liquid HCN on the floor (or anywhere else). note this
well: we are not dealing with a liquid." I certainly agree with your
assessement of your knowledge of chemistry. But then you do carry on like you
know what your talking about, don't you?
Zyklon-b has the liquid HCN adsorbed onto the surface of an inert substrate.
Since the vapor pressure remains the same, the rate of evaporation doesn't
decrease. In fact, because of the increase in surface area (assuming the
zyklon-b paricles are small), it increases. In which case "the release of HCN
gas is not the same as pouring it on the floor." It's much quicker. Rablin
says the particles "felt like velvet and were cool and damp." The coolness was
caused by the rapid evaporation of the liquid HCN and the dampness speaks for
itself.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 822 Thu Apr 09, 1992
POOH.BAH at 01:42 EDT
802 Hans-Peter:
> The 4 million for Auschwitz obviously WAS the accepted figure for a
> lengthy period of time, along with the 6 million total.
The question is, though, accepted by whom? What was the figure of 4 million
anyway? Those plaques never said "4 million Jews" so, like Raven, you are
comparing apples and oranges.
The first two complete histories of the Holocaust were written by Reitlinger
and Hilberg. Neither one of them ever claimed 4 million Jews being
exterminated at Auschwitz. The plaques at Auschwitz never claimed that 4
million JEWS were exterminated there. In fact, those plaques never mentioned
Jews at all.
As has been stated publicly (such as the recent CNN broadcast on which
S.PIERCE6 reported in this TOPic), the number of NON-JEWS was over-estimated
by the Communist gov't in Poland and the Jewish deaths were denied in their
version of history.
Are you now denying that non-Jews were exterminated by the Nazis?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 823 Thu Apr 09, 1992
POOH.BAH at 01:42 EDT
803 Chigger:
> Suchomel states the gas chambers there were fed by the engine
> of a tank. He also states a trainload could be processed in three hours or
> less. A tank engine would be a diesel engine. It would take much more time
> than that to kill two batches (men, then women, & children) using diesel
> exhaust. The CO content of which is less than 1 percent.
As has been discussed in this TOPic already, any engine (including diesel)
can be adjusted for an increased CO output.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 824 Thu Apr 09, 1992
A.WEBB1 [HRM] at 03:57 EDT
Wow!! How do you guys know all this stuff?
Has anyone seen Raske's film on the holocaust? To artsy for this discussion?
But, then again, art is related to emotion -- and there's plenty of that afoot
here.
HRM
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 825 Thu Apr 09, 1992
AH.STEIN at 07:00 EDT
802 Hans-Peter:
>Historians usually don't use the encyclopedia as a source, but the
encyclopedia usually reports what is believed to be true at the time of
publication.
As Pooh.Bah has repeatedly pointed out, that was not the case here.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 826 Thu Apr 09, 1992
TERMY at 07:15 EDT
Message 16 G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]
-> However, I accept the fact that you have no more evidence to
->support your claim that there was a policy of extermination, while
->pointing out yet again that you have failed to establish your claim
->in the least.
Message 463 G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]
-> Because there were no systematic German programs of genocide...
-------------------
My Message 250:
Today I can confirm that our objective, to solve the Jewish problem
for Lithuania, has been achieved by EK 3. In Lithuania there are no
more Jews, apart from Jewish workers and their families.
[The above follows detailed accounting of the killing of over 130,000
persons]
-----
My Message 343:
5. Furthermore, it was proposed to sterilize all those Jewesses
who are still fertile so that the Jewish problem would finally be
solved with the present generation.
------
Message 346
When reaching its lawful verdict on the charges against the accused,
the SS and Police Supreme Court was guided by the following
considerations:
1. The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against
the Jews as such. THE JEWS HAVE TO BE EXTERMINATED AND NONE OF THE
JEWS THAT WERE KILLED IS ANY GREAT LOSS. Although the accused should
have recognized that THE EXTERMINATION OF THE JEWS WAS THE DUTY OF
KOMMANDOS WHICH HAVE BEEN SET UP ESPECIALLY FOR THIS PURPOSE, he
should be excused for considering himself to have the authority to
take part in the extermination of Jewry himself. [emphasis mine]
-------
My Message #349 elaborates upon Msg #346
-------
My Message 403:
The aim of Einsatzkommando 2 from the beginning was a radical
solution of the Jewish problem through the execution of all Jews.
-------
My Message 404:
...It should be obvious that one cannot solve the Polish problem by
liquidating the poles in the same way as the Jews. Such a solution to
the Polish problem would burden the German people with guilt for years
to come and lose us the sympathies of people everywhere, particularly
since our neighbors would be bound to reckon that they would be
treated in the same way when the time came."
----------
My Message 405:
Carrying out orders, the Security Police were determined to solve
the Jewish question with all possible means and most decisively...It
was anticipated from the beginning that the Jewish problem in the
Ostland [Baltic] would not be solved solely through pogroms. On the
other hand, in accordance with basic orders, the cleansing operation
of the Security Police had the goal of the most comprehensive
elimination possible of the Jews. Extensive executions were thus
carried out by special units in the cities and the plains.
-------------
My Message 564:
The Judenaktion on 13 November alleviated the situation [of severe
overcrowding] perceptibly...
Upon my arrival there were about 25,000 Jews in the Slonim area, 16,000
in the actual town itself...It was not possible to set up a ghetto as
neither barbed wire nor guard manpower was available. I thus immediately
began preparations for a large-scale action...
...The action carried out by the SD on 13 November rid me of
unnecessary mouths to feed. The some 7,000 Jews now present in the
town of Slonim have all been allocated jobs. They are working
willingly because of the constant fear of death. Early next year they
will be rigorously checked and sorted for a further reduction.
...all Jews will be eradicated with the exception of all but the most
essential craftsmen and skilled workers...
...so that Jews will finally be dispensable in the skilled craft and
trade sector and can be eliminated.
---------
My Message 731
From a report from the Reichsfuehrer-SS (Himmler) to Hitler.
August: September: Oktober: November: insgesamt:
------- ---------- -------- --------- ----------
[2]c) Juden exekutiert
31246 165282 95735 70948 363211
--------------
ALL of the above excerpts are taken from German wartime reports,
correspondence and documents. There are no excerpts from confessions
or post-war documents of any sort.
Mr. Raven, in light of the above excerpts, do you still maintain that
there was no policy of extermination?
Do you suggest that Hitler was unaware of the large number of "Juden
Exekutiert"?
--------------
Just out of curiousity, is there anyone here (besides Mr. Raven and
Mr./Ms. Rungu, if that entity is still about) who does not find the
above sufficient evidence of a policy of genocide? Does anyone hold
any doubt as to whether or not Hitler was aware of such a policy, or,
at the very least, knowledge that large numbers of Jews were being
killed?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 827 Thu Apr 09, 1992
A.WEBB1 [HRM] at 19:55 EDT
I can't imagine anyone actually attempting to argue that extermination of Jews
was not a part -- almost carried out -- of Hitler's plan. What might be
important to do right now is to get as many clear stories from still-living
eye witnesses etc. -- just to make the record as clear as possible (though it
seems plain to me). Then again, those who want to argue that the murder of
millions of Jews did not happen won't really care about documentation -- seems
to me that the issue isn't even really =just how many= died... even if (and I
don't think so) the numbers are half or less of what's generally believed,
what difference does that make? We =know= that Hitler needed a group upon
which he could focus his anger -- his insanity -- he used the Jews. If only
one Jew was murdered in such a campaign it would be one too many and a
holocaust of itself.
A.Webb1, blue-eyed, blonde haired, germanic descended, and lover of Jews and
all humans.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 828 Thu Apr 09, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 21:48 EDT
C.FINK4...message 804
I agree with you Carl that outright denial is an extreme position which would
be difficult or impossible to support scientifically. I just have trouble
accepting stories which are inconsistent or numbers which don't add up to the
claimed totals. It grates against my training as a mathematical physicist.
It bothers me to see these sudden shifts of position when the Russians have
only recently admitted fudging the Auschwitz figures and having debaters here
claim that "We knew the correct figures all along". The Russian figures were
in countless books, encyclopedias, magazines, school textbooks, etc. Either
the people who claimed to know the 1.1 million figure all along were lying
then by keeping silent or they are lying now. Neither scenario builds
confidence in what I am being told currently. What else will they claim to
know later which they are now keeping hidden?
D.BRIN1...message 805
Time and Newsweek reported the change of signs. I have never been to Poland
personally, and have no plans ever to go there.
S.PIERCE6...message 807
Sorry Madam Sheri, but the event is not listed under Poland, Germany, or
Warsaw. I guess they decided that other events were more important. If your
only offering to this topic is rudeness, then perhaps IGN PER would be best
for everybody. Good day.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 829 Thu Apr 09, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche] at 22:11 EDT
Hans-Peter,
I'm sure that it grates on your training, but what we are dealing with here
is a case of difference in disciplines. Historians are continually revising
their accounts in order to take new evidence into account. The degree of
precision that mathematics can give is much greater since the mathematician
has a much greater degree of direct control over his/her variables than a
historian does. This doesn't invalidate the historian's task, in fact, it is
the only way that it can be done given the fact that we are dealing with
irreproducable outcomes. (This is also why "revisionism" in and of itself is
not a dirty word in historical investigation.)
Scaramouche
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 830 Thu Apr 09, 1992
D.BERKOWITZ at 22:22 EDT
G-d bless, A.Webb HRM.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 831 Thu Apr 09, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 22:30 EDT
POOH.BAH...message 822
I'm not denying anything. You're doing all the talking and I'm basically
reading all these posts from different people with divergent viewpoints and
trying to make sense of them. You are certainly not the villain of this piece
because you have generally been quite an informative and reasonable person
with whom to talk. The same cannot be said of some of the other respondents
and I tire quite quickly of rude people who have nothing to say or polemicists
who distort the comments of others into something that they can attack more
easily than the original. I have come to the conclusion that participation
here is not a very productive use of my time.
Speaking of insults to people's intelligence, no German government document
would ever use "exekutiert" for executed. The proper term is "hingerichtet".
The document cluttering our screens was obviously prepared in English and then
translated into German later. The word "exekutiert" does exist in German, but
its meaning is ambiguous since it means "mortgaged" in Austrian useage. It
just wouldn't appear in a German document. I have seen death warrants and they
don't use that wording at all.
Bye
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 832 Fri Apr 10, 1992
D.BRIN1 at 00:12 EDT
Hans-Peter, I didn't ask you where you read about those plaques at Auschwitz.
I asked you if you knew those plaques to say that 4 million Jews were killed
there. It's a simple question: yes or no?
Did they say that 4 million Jews were killed at Auschwitz?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 833 Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:51 EDT
To Termy (regarding 789) ---
> According to the eyewitness accounts, who was tasked with cutting
the hair off gassing victims?
.
I believe it was the sonderkommando.
---
> Your comment is specifically invited upon the first sentence in my
statement, as shown above, regarding the amount of HCN which would be
trapped in the hair.
> Concerning other points I touched upon in my post #766, especially
those regarding the physiological aspects of expression of gases from
the lungs of deceased persons, you made no comment. Do you care to
comment or will you concede the issue?
.
Regarding your first sentence, I feel we are just trading uninformed
opinions. I think that a recently-gassed body would likely have
dangerous amounts of HCN gas in, on, and around it (as implied by the
statements of Mr. Armontrout). You don't.
.
As to the gasses trapped in the lungs, I have no knowledge specific
to this area, so I can neither agree nor disagree with you. I will
point out, however, that what you are saying in essence is that it is
possible to pack an unheated room tightly with people, drop in some
Zyklon B, have it gas off quickly enough to kill all the people in
fifteen minutes and then dissipate without the assistance of
ventilators or any other neutralizing agent, and have the room and
its contents completely safe for handling at the end of that fifteen
minutes. Judging by what I have heard about the toxicity of HCN gas,
this simply does not seem possible.
---
> Does Mr. Leuchter have an engineering degree?
.
Ah, now you have changed the question. Okay, to the best of my
knowledge, Mr. Leuchter has no engineering degree. He does, however,
have MUCH better qualifications that Thomas Edison, who only attended
3 months of formal schooling, yet managed to amass over 1,000
patents, and who changed our lives forever. Mr. Leuchter may not have
1,000 patents, but I believe his work has also changed our lives for
the better.
---
> In the same fashion as outlined above, I would ask that you
ascertain whether or not Mr. Leuchter has appeared before the court
concerning his possession (or, more correctly, lack thereof) of an
engineering license.
.
Mr. Leuchter was called into court, but charges were either dropped
or dismissed. There are many people practicing engineering in MA
without a license, as MA law only requires certain engineers to have
such a license. (We will leave here unaddressed the issue of why in
America, land of the free, one needs a license to be an engineer, cut
hair, etc.). Mr. Leuchter was not convicted of any charge, and last I
heard the state of MA has accepted his application for a license and
is reviewing it without prejudice.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 834 Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:52 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 790) ---
> Seeing as Mr. Lueftl has denied giving anyone his report and has
stated that he doesn't associate with "such circles," I would hardly
call that standing behind the report which was made public. After
all, there is no verification that the report made public was HIS.
---
Let's look at this statement a piece at a time.
> ...Mr. Lueftl has denied giving anyone his report...
.
Apparently, then, there is a report.
---
> ...and has stated that he doesn't associate with "such circles,...
.
Which means nothing, and is certainly no denial of the report or its
existence.
---
> I would hardly call that standing behind the report which was made
public.
.
Considering that it is against the new laws regulating thought in
Austria, one would hardly expect him to brag that he had broken the
law.
---
> After all, there is no verification that the report made public was
HIS.
.
So in other words, when the existence of this report was made public,
someone asked Lueftl if he indeed was the author, and he called the
report's origin into question by stating that he never released it?
Why didn't he simply say, "I generated no such report." Or, "It's not
mine." Or, "I didn't do it." You are clutching at straws. Again.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 835 Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:52 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 791) ---
> From Cassell's German-English Dictionary:
> "Vernichtung: extermination, annihilation, extinction,
destruction."
.
Gee, so he could have meant extinction, as well? All you have to do
to establish your position now is to prove that when Kremer wrote in
his diary, he ALWAYS checked the translation of his words into
English, and took the second meaning of each word as the meaning of
that word in his sentences. Rather like a secret code, I guess ...
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 836 Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:52 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 794) ---
> Sanning's figures (which are inaccurate anyway) are for Romania
with its 1947 borders. Hilberg's are for Romania with its 1937
borders. Big difference, wouldn't you say?
.
The "big difference" is between what you have said and what is the
truth of the matter. As anyone can see from my posting 779, Sanning
takes into account the changes of the borders. By the way, on what
grounds do you so lightly toss off Sanning's figures? There are many
who have found that it is not quite this easy ... but we will get to
this in a future post, relative your 797!
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 837 Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:53 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 795) ---
> I find nothing in the "Birkenau - Kremas II, III, IV and V" which
contradicts what Leuchter said on my page 8: "In Birkeanu, Kermas II,
III, IV, V are collapsed, or razed to the foundations."
.
Ah, but surely you are aware that the roof of at least one of these
buildings, although collapsed, remains available for inspection, as
do the columns (which are solid and NOT hollow as eyewitness accounts
would have us believe). Furthermore, Mr. Leuchter has never stated
that everything depends on the CN compound tests alone, the physical
inspection alone, or the inspection of the captured German blueprints
and other drawings alone. He examined all of these, and came to the
conclusion that there were no gas chambers.
---
> And, under the section, "Design and Procedures at the Alleged
Execution Gas Chamber" we read: "Kremas I, II, III, IV and V are
described historically and on inspection were verified to have been
CONVERTED [emphasis mine] mortuaries or morgues connected and housed
in the same facility as crematories."
> Now, no where does Mr. Leuchter enlighten us as to what his
inspection verified these structures to have been CONVERTED
into....yet, he does indicate that his inspection and the historical
description agree. Therefore, we are left to conclude that he agrees
with the historical description that these structures were CONVERTED
into gas chambers.
.
Syntactically, this statement could have been made clearer. However,
we can still understand that Mr. Leuchter was saying that the
premises that are alleged to have been the very core of the "killing
center" were not, in fact, designed as gas chambers, but were instead
designed as something else! Only by converting them from their
INTENDED use could the Germans have even hoped to use them as mass
execution facilities.
.
Doesn't it strike you as curious, you with your "policy of
extermination," that the Germans went to all the trouble of building
facilities that were of no use to them in terms of mass gassings,
which would have forced them to convert these unusable facilities to
something only marginally better suited to mass exterminations? This
is the height of folly.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 838 Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:54 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 797) ---
> Let's look at what others have said about Sanning's work, shall we?
> "....clever veneer of scholarship.....has all the superficial
attributes of a factual analysis...identify its flaws..." Professor
Henry Huttenback, CCNY.
> "....a piece of sophisticated Holocaust denial....expose many of
the errors in this work." Professor John S. Conway, University of
British Columbia.
> And, these are the "blurbs" that the publisher (IHR) chose to put
on the jacket!
.
I hereby lodge a formal protest to Graffiti: there is either someone
using Pooh.bah's account without her knowledge or she has forgotten
the ground rules of the discussion here. Let's look at the blurbs as
they appear on the back of the Sanning book, shall we?
---
"...The danger of this book (and of those that will doubtlessly
follow) is its clever veneer of scholarship. The bibliography is
international in scope and the text has the panache of objectivity.
It does not read like a shrill polemic but has all the superficial
atttributes of a factual analysis. Not one in a thousand
undergraduates could find fault with it; only a few more graduates
would be competent to identify its flaws and to convincingly question
its credibility. The ultimate danger lies in the lack of a serious
response to this continuing wave of attacks on history itself."
Professor Henry Huttenbach
City College of New York
in "Martyrdom and Resistance"
---
"...a piece of sophisticated Holocaust denial...It will require the
services of a competent demographer to expose many of the errors in
this work."
Professor John S. Conway
University of British Columbia
in "The International History Review"
---
"...this book makes a great parade of statistics to show that
whatever diminution in the population of the European Jews took place
during World War II was only part of a long-term demographic
'dissolution' exacerbated by the rough treatment accorded Jews by the
Soviet Union."
Gordon Mork
in "Shofar"
---
As we can see, you have hacked these blurbs almost beyond
recognition, and certainly beyond meaning. You, Pooh.bah, have
clearly crossed the line on this one.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 839 Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:54 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 798) ---
> Well, you have admitted to not being a chemist. Maybe we should
look at what a chemist has to say:
> "In the Leuchter report the gas concentration is stated as 0.32%
and higher concentrations where the gas was introduced. When an
explosive gas mixture fills only a small part of a room or is allowed
to escape into the air, there would be no explosion."
> Josef Bailer, PhD
.
Apparently, you are not a chemist, either. The DuPont literature was
referring to explosive polymerization. Dr. Bailer appears to be
talking about something else entirely. You will not convince me that
your position is correct by muddying the waters in this fashion.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 840 Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:54 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding801) ---
> Actually, Raul Hilberg had committments which he had to fulfill as
a professor at the Univeristy of Vermont and was unable to attend the
second trial.
.
How convenient. Funny how this happens, kinda like at the Great
Holocaust Debate, which my Calender of the Holocaust records as:
"2/21/89: The Great Holocaust Debate gets off to a slow start when
exterminationists Hal Lindsey (author), Glen Peglau (attorney), John
Montgomery (author), and Tom Anderson (attorney) fail to show up to
debate revisionists Mark Weber (author), Robert Faurisson
(professor), Bradley Smith (author), and Robert Countess (doctor).
.
So Hilberg, who for decades has put forth the proposition that the
Holocaust occurred, can't find time to help rebut a denier such as
Zuendel? One would think that he would MAKE time for such an
opportunity ... if he had the proof to back up his statements.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 841 Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:55 EDT
To Hans-Peter Skaliks (regarding 802) ---
> The Jewish community complained loudly enough when the Polish
government replaced the signs at the Auschwitz museum with signs
showing smaller numbers.
.
Yes, even though we are told that the JEWISH dead were counted
correctly (again!) and it is only the NON-Jewish dead that were
counted incorrectly.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 842 Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:55 EDT
To Carl Fink (regarding 804) ---
> Please, Raven - this is just silly. The German word translates
correctly EITHER WAY - as "extermination" or "annihilation".
.
Let's look at what Faurisson has to say about this phrase.
---
"But there is something very much more serious that Georges Wellers
has made the Kremer text undergo. Kremer did not say that Auschwitz
was 'called an extermination camp,' which, in the original German,
would have been: "genannt Vernichungslager."
"In reality, we read in the original German:
"'genannt DAS Lager DER Vernichtung' ('called THE camp of THE
annihilation').
"If Wellers had respected the presence of the two articles and if he
had given to 'Vernichtung' the meaning of 'extermination' which is
indispensible to his extermination thesis, he would have gotten the
following phrase: 'It is not without reason that Auschwitz is called
the camp of the extermination.' Thus constructed, the phrase sounds
bizarre both in German and in French. That has to be for us the sign
that a word of the text undoubtedly has been badly translated. That
word, as will be seen later on, is 'Vernichtung.' The context will
reveal to us that that word is not to be translated as
'extermination' (a meaning that it can very well have in other
contexts) by by 'annihilation.' There is here no extermination,
murder, assassination, killing, nor massacre; there are not the
results of an act, an action, or a will; there is nothing here about
a 'camp where they exterminate,' there is here no 'extermination
camp' (an expression invented by the victors, some years after 1942,
to designate camps allegedly endowed with 'gas chambers'). What there
is here in reality is an annihilation; men and women are reduced to
wasting away; they are annihilated, reduced to nothing by the
epidemics and notably by that illness whose name 'typhus (in Greek
Tupos) signifies precisely: torpor, stupor, a kind of lethargy, a
rapid destruction of the faculties, sometimes up to the point of
death. Auschwitz is not 'an extermination camp' (an anachronistic
expression, and we know that anachronism is one of the most reliable
signs of the presence of a falsehood) but the camp, yes, indeed, the
camp *par excellence* of general annihilation. Without a doubt, just
as the moment of taking his post at Auschwitz, this newcomer, Dr.
Kremer, had heard his colleagues say, 'You know, this camp, they call
it the camp of annihilation. Look out for typhus! You yourself also
take the risk of contracting it and dying from it.'"
.
Thus we see that my using the word "extermination" in place of the
proper word, "annihilation," you are indeed "doing violence to the
text."
---
> Raven, your 785: you are reading a lot into DuPont's safety
regulations, which from the phrasing, seem to be talking about huge
quantities. In any case, they are most certainly more worried about
lawsuits and employee injuries than the Nazis were - the Nazis were
only risking the lives of Jews.
.
The DuPont literature makes reference to "dangerous amounts." If
toxicity figures for HCN gas are to be believed, this is not a very
high concentration. Furthermore, if the so-called gas chambers
leaked, they were risking the lives of those OUTSIDE as well.
---
> Raven, your 787: well, I'd like a reference on the evaporation rate
of HCN from Zyclon B because if the tin is empty in 5 minutes, it
indicates that the gas could spread through the execution chamber and
kill everyone fairly easily, whereas if it requires 12 hours,
obviously nobody was gassed with Zyclon B. Why not give a range of
temperatures, say from 10C to 35C (both of which probably ocurred at
different times as OUTDOOR temperatures at the camps).
.
Thanks a million for the long-answer question. I'll see what I can
come up with.
---
> By the way, the Zyclon B manual makes no sense ...
.
Well, there were (and probably still are) the manufacturers ...
perhaps they knew one or two things about their own product that you
do not know.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 843 Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:56 EDT
To Daniel Brin (regarding 805) ---
> Now, now, Hans-Peter (Message 802): Your message appears to imply
that those plaques at Auschwitz stated that four million Jews were
killed at Auschwitz. Do you know this to be so?
.
Do not mistake your inferences with Mr. Skaliks' implications. His
message implies no such thing, and you know it.
---
> Mr. Raven: Once again you have dodged the obvious conclusion... the
ONLY logical conclusion that can be made of Fred Leuchter's
"analysis" of Auschwitz. The core of his argument is his comparison
of the delousing chambers with the homicidal gas chambers, and this
comparison is rendered meaningless by his failure to comprehend that
the two sets of chambers were exposed to VASTLY different amounts of
gas, under vastly different conditions.
.
You need to study this matter more carefully. Mr. Leuchter himself
has stated that only about ten percent of his conclusion is based on
the analysis of the samples taken. There is MUCH more to the Leuchter
Report than chemical analysis.
---
> Your first response was to this point was to deny that little bugs
could "root around" the stuff for hours without dying. Now you have
posted a strategic retreat, not quite denying this fact, but not
quite admitting it either. The closest you have come to an admission
is a citation of Leuchter's concession that, well, yes, SOME bugs are
more resistant to cyanide gas than humans.
.
You have either misunderstood my post or are mischaracterizing it.
Please post the message number so I can respond substantively to this
allegation.
---
> Hmmm..... I just noticed that, if Pooh.Bah's quotation of Fred
Leuchter (message 795) is correct, then the homicidal chambers were
housed in the same facilities as the crematoria. Let's see now. It
gets mighty hot around crematoria, doesn't it?
.
Hmmm ... How much longer will it take you to notice that crematoria
use fire, and that HCN gas burns or explodes on contact with open
flame?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 844 Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:56 EDT
To Sheri Pierce (regarding 806 et al) ---
> My advice to you would be to check out the SHOAH video series...
.
You will permit me to point out that even "documentary" films are
highly suspect by the very nature of their assembly, and that Shoah
and Painful Reminder are hardly unimpeachable sources.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 845 Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:57 EDT
To Pooh.bah (regarding 823) ---
> As has been discussed in this TOPic already, any engine (including
diesel) can be adjusted for an increased CO output.
.
It has been alleged that a diesel engine can be adjusted for
increased CO output, but this has not been backed up with any factual
information. What is a fact is that using a diesel engine to produce
CO to kill people is extremely inefficient. We know that the Germans
had any number of ways to produce CO other than diesel engines. Why
would they "forget" these other ways and take up one of the least
effective methods in order to effect mass murder? Answer: they
wouldn't.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 846 Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:57 EDT
To Termy (regarding 826) ---
> Just out of curiousity, is there anyone here (besides Mr. Raven and
Mr./Ms. Rungu, if that entity is still about) who does not find the
above sufficient evidence of a policy of genocide? Does anyone hold
any doubt as to whether or not Hitler was aware of such a policy, or,
at the very least, knowledge that large numbers of Jews were being
killed?
.
Personally, I don't care if EVERYONE else finds these few postings to
be sufficient. I do not. You fail to recognize my agreement that the
activities of the Einsatzgruppen sometimes resulted in the killing of
Jews. This is a special case. The court case of Tauber is another
special case.
.
You need to address the many statements and efforts made throughout
the war by the Nazi high command to the effect that the "final
solution" of the Jewish problem was to be put off until after the
war, the evidence we have of highly placed Nazi officials continuing
to pursue plans to ship the Jews out of Europe as late as 1944, and
the evidence that the Nazis were moving lots of Jews East of the
so-called killing centers into the occupied territories. There
actions (and others) speak loudly and clearly to the point that there
was no policy of genocide, and thus Hitler could not have known about
it.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 847 Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] at 01:58 EDT
To Pooh.bah
How many times must I ask you this? Give us the details about the
copy of the Franke-Gricksch Report you claim to have reviewed or
abandon your endless repetition of it as "proof" of a Nazi policy to
exterminate the Jews! Even if you had never seen the document when
you first said you had, I have given you more than enough time to
obtain a copy of the document about which you claim to have so much
knowledge. You apparently cannot answer any but the most simple
questions about it, and then only in useless generalities. WHAT ARE
THE DETAILS?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 848 Fri Apr 10, 1992
A.WEBB1 [HRM] at 02:08 EDT
What Pooh.Bah said.
HRM
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 849 Fri Apr 10, 1992
A.K.QUINN at 02:22 EDT
I wonder why the RCC canonized Fr Maximilian Kolbe, who volunteered to take
the place of a man with a family, and who was starved to death at Auschwitz?
And why did the Pope at Auschwitz speak so strongly about the genocide
practiced there? John Paul II is not known to be careless with words.
=KevinQ=
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 850 Fri Apr 10, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche] at 02:43 EDT
Raven
RE: Post 842 et. al. concerning "extermination" vs. "annihilation"
I believe the appropriate terms for you "argument" are "quibbling" and
"pettifogging". In any case, you've just made out the Nazis to be even worse
monsters if your particular argument is correct. Which is the more inhumane, a
bullet in the back of the head, 15-30 minutes of terror in a gas chamber, or a
deliberate attempt to "annihilate" an entire race of people by slow starvation
and disease? I think most folks would choose the last option as being the most
sadistic. :-<
Scaramouche
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 851 Fri Apr 10, 1992
M.FEINS at 18:22 EDT
A moment of Silence in the
Blessed Memory
of the 75,000 Mental Defectives
of ALL races and creeds
who because of something they could not comprehend
nor defend themselves against
were slaughtered
by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust
and their Nazi Masters
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 852 Fri Apr 10, 1992
J.WEISBERGE1 [Jon W.] at 18:22 EDT
If the passage from Faurisson quoted by Raven in #842 is a good example of
Faurisson's approach ("annihilation" obviously means "fatal disease"), no
wonder he was thrown out of his profession!
In general, this approach - also exemplified by Raven's #845 (the question
"why would the Germans do X" is advanced as proof that they did not, in fact,
do X") flies in the face of the most basic principles of historiography.
We have testimony that a tank engine was used to produce fumes to asphyxiate
Jews at Treblinka. The counter-argument consists of asking "why would they
use such an inefficient method?" - which is not, in fact, an argument, but
merely a question which does not address the substance of the testimony. The
unspoken piece here is that the testimony is false; that it is sufficient to
ask this question to discredit the testimony. This is a travesty of
historical methodology.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 853 Fri Apr 10, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:23 EDT
828 Hans-Peter:
> It bothers me to see these sudden shifts of position when the Russians
> have only recently admitted fudging the Auschwitz figures and having
> debaters here claim that "We knew the correct figures all along". The
> Russian figures were in countless books, encyclopedias, magazines, school
> textbooks, etc. Either the people who claimed to know the 1.1 million
> figure all along were lying then by keeping silent or they are lying now.
Your "either/or" regarding lying is a non-sequitur. Hilberg and Reitlinger
were the first two to publish complete histories on the Holocaust. Hilberg
estimated the number of Jews exterminated at Auschwtiz at 1 million (2.7 for
all camps) and Reitlinger estimated the number at 1.1 million. Their books
were published long before the plaques were changed. So, no one has been
"keeping silent" regarding these figures.
I will repeat again that the plaques at Auschwitz never claimed 4 million
JEWS. For you to say that the figure "4 million" being reduced necessitates
the 6 million total figure being reduced either means that you THOUGHT the
plaques stated that there were 4 million JEWS exterminated there OR that you
deny that non-Jews (i.e. homosexuals, Gypsies, Russian POWs, Poles, etc.)
were exterminated there. Which is it?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 854 Fri Apr 10, 1992
POOH.BAH at 18:26 EDT
831 Hans-Peter:
> Speaking of insults to people's intelligence, no German government
> document would ever use "exekutiert" for executed. The proper term is
> "hingerichtet". The document cluttering our screens was obviously prepared
> in English and then translated into German later. The word "exekutiert"
> does exist in German, but its meaning is ambiguous since it means
> "mortgaged" in Austrian useage. It just wouldn't appear in a German
> document. I have seen death warrants and they don't use that wording at
> all.
As you know (but others here would not know), "exekutiert" is a conjugation
of "exekutieren." Now, according to you, this word does not exist in the
German language and the Americans, British or Canadians were too stupid to
realize this so used the wrong term in forging a document.
This is ridiculous on all counts. From _Das Wissen unserer Zeit: Immer auf
dem neuesten Stand. Knaurs Lexikon A-Z_, Muenchen, 1931:
"exekutieren: vollstrecken, ausfuehren, HINRICHTEN."
For everyone else's benefit, "vollstrecken" translates to: "execute, carry
out, ratify" and "ausfuehren" translates to: "take out, carry out, execute,
perform." The former would be as in "a will is executed" and the latter would
be as in "the maneuver was executed." "Hinrichten" is the German word that
Hans-Peter has designated means to execute as in "a person is executed in a
gas chamber."
I put that word all in caps. This comes from a dictionary published in Munich
in 1931 so obviously the verb "exekutieren" (1) was a German word at that
time; and (2) that word did mean to execute as in execute a person.
Now, the question is, Hans-Peter, did you really not know this OR were you
simply hoping that no one else knew this?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 855 Fri Apr 10, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:29 EDT
836 Raven:
> The "big difference" is between what you have said and what is the
> truth of the matter. As anyone can see from my posting 779, Sanning
> takes into account the changes of the borders.
Yes, Sanning accounts for the changes in borders. His figures are based upon
the 1947 borders. However, you then compared Sanning's figures to those of
Hilberg and Hilberg's figures are the 1937 borders. That is the big
difference which you want to ignore.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 856 Fri Apr 10, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:30 EDT
838 Raven:
> I hereby lodge a formal protest to Graffiti: there is either someone
> using Pooh.bah's account without her knowledge or she has forgotten
> the ground rules of the discussion here.
ROFL!!!!!
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 857 Fri Apr 10, 1992
POOH.BAH at 19:30 EDT
847 Raven:
I have now told you in two different messages where the original F-G report
can be located. I would suggest that you obtain a copy for yourself so you
can see all the details that interest you.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 858 Fri Apr 10, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 21:01 EDT
Raven, your 842: you (or Faurisson) make a big deal of the clumsiness in
either French or German of "The camp of the extermination". I can't speak for
those languages, but "The camp of the annihilation" is just as clumsy in
English. Hans-Peter, you're a native speaker of German, could you comment?
>>>By the way, the Zyclon B manual makes no sense ... [quote from me]
>>Well, there were [sic] (and probably still are) the
>>manufacturers ...
>>perhaps they knew one or two things about their own product that
>>you do not know.
Perhaps, but I suspect that the translation is off. HCN is not a very
complex compound: I can grasp its behavior fairly well.
Carl Fink
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 859 Fri Apr 10, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 23:41 EDT
Regard the plaques at Auschwitz:
Initially I heard CNN report that the Polish authorities were reducing their
Auschwitz death count from 4 million to 1 and half million. Several people
here referred to 1.1 million. Today I read a rather authoritative news report
from Reuters which stated the total estimate was 1.6 million, of which more
than 90% (1.4 million) were Jews.
Reuters goes on to state that the communist regimes in Poland previously
acknowledged the victims by their countries of origin, and that in any case
the present changes are motivated by the desire of the present Polish
authorities to "restore the historical truth about Auschwitz, especially the
fact that more than 90 per cent of the estimated 1.6 million victims were
European Jews."
I have watched the news and periodicals on this subject rather closely. I
have seen nothing suggesting the Jews protested the action, quite the
opposite. Therefore I challenge Hans-Peter to produce his sources.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 860 Sat Apr 11, 1992
A.WEBB1 [HRM] at 01:24 EDT
What POOH.BAH said.
Her Rugged Majesty ;) [[[ALL]]]
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 861 Sat Apr 11, 1992
B.EATON2 [BZE] at 02:35 EDT
Raven #783 What were you taught about the Holocaust, capital H, which is
different from what I have stated? Written that way, for the past 50 years,
it has come to mean the deliberate destruction of European Jewry, or as much
of it as the Nazis could get their hands on.
Pooh and others have posted innumerable statistics, reports, etc. to show what
happened. The majority of the world's respected historians and scholars agree
with the major pts they have brought up. "I believe" their documentation. I
find nothing in the minor pts you bring up and chew to death to contradict
those findings.
You still haven't answered my question posed days ago. Why do you call Hitler
a great man? You must have reasons; please share them with us.
#846 Why did the Nazis use valuable and scarce railroad cars to move Jews to
the East? What was the point of the move if not to exterminate them?
Webster's New World dictionary defines annihilate as "...destroy completely,
put out of existence." exterminate is defined as "to destroy or get rid of
entirely, as by killing; wipe out; annihilate" The words mean the same thing;
to destroy by killing. You cannot rewrite the language to justify your
political beliefs and retain credibility.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 862 Sat Apr 11, 1992
J.WEIR9 at 12:17 EDT
RE: Message 637 & 700 / Pooh.Bah
> This statement would be reasonable IF the delousing chamber had been
exposed
> to the same environmental forces as had the gas chambers. However, since
the
> delousing chamber was left intact and the gas chambers had been destroyed
and
> left exposed to the elements, testing of the samples from the delousing
> chamber would not logically produce the above conclusion.
.
You seem to forget Krema I. It was not destroyed, and has been subject
to the same environmental forces as had the delousing chamber and the cyanide
levels there (Leuchter samples 25-31) were about the same as those for the
other morgues. Are you saying Krema I was not a gas chamber?
I have seen slides by Ditlieb Felderer of the exterior of one of the
Birkenau delousing chambers where mattresses were leaned against the wall and
beaten to drive the HCN gas out of them. The Prussian blue which formed on
this wall which has been exposed to the elements for all these years is quite
prominently visible.
.
RE: Message 677 / Pooh.Bah
> In the above example, it might be true that I had been hit by a car while
> riding my bicycle. It might also be true that I had been hit from the rear
> and was thrown through the air. However, my statement of "at least 200
feet"
> and that it took the ambulance "an hour or two" would probably not be
> accurate and might, indeed, have to be divided by 2 or 3 to bring them into
> line with the truth. However, even if that is true, that does not mean that
> suddenly I would be injury free because my exaggeration translates into the
> non-existence of the accident.
This is circular logic. The proof of the accident would be the in-
juries suffered, the damage done to the bicycle and the car, if any, and doc-
uments generated by the hospital visit, not the testimony of the accident
victim. If there is no other evidence but the testimony an examination
of the details is the only way assess its credibility. One cannot say
the testimony is true because the accident occurred and the accident was
proven by the testimony. This is merely begging the question.
In the case of the gas chamber testimony this also applies. You can't
properly say these accounts are true and prove there were gas chambers
because you base their veracity on the assumption the gas chambers existed
in the first place.
.
RE: Message 680 / Pooh.Bah
> As far as the lack of heaters in the gas chambers, I assume that you mean
of
> the inorganic type. After all, there were about 300 naked human bodies
which
> would have produced around 3900 BTU. That is more than enough to heat that
> small space.
While this may have contributed to the heating of the air, I do not
believe these people would have had much effect on the concrete in the floor,
walls, and ceiling where the condensation would have taken place.
.
RE: Message 700 / Pooh.Bah
>First, the walls of the gas chamber were not "continuously exposed" to HCN
>for a year and a half.
I know this. These morgues saw very little HCN at all. What adverb would
you use if you do not like "continuously"?
>Second, according Dr. Bailer [...] Third, according to the Institute of
>Forensic Institute [...]
I accept there is more than one expert opinion on the matter, however,
the formation of these compounds is not essential to support the thesis these
buildings were never used as gas chambers. Since this compound is absent
there
is nothing to show these buildings were anything other than what the
documents
say they were (ie. Crematories with attached morgues built to battle a typhus
epidemic).
>As far as gas trapped in lungs, dead people don't exhale.
True, but neither do they hold their breath, and bodies would have to be
manipulated when removed.
>Next, HCN has been used in places such as mills, and granaries because it
>decomposes after a short time and leaves no residue behind. Also, HCN dis-
>sipates quickly when exposed to air which has lower (or no) HCN concentra-
>tion.
Please define "a short time" and "quickly".
>This would mean that any residual gas in the chamber would not adversly af-
>fect the Sonderkommandos.
If we were talking about one body in an open field I would agree. The
problem is we are stuck with an unventilated 2500 sq. ft. basement with 300
unexhaling bodies in it.
.
RE: Message 703 / Pooh.bah
>"....[...] Despite the speed of this operation the lice
> jumped on our legs and to protect ourselves we spread a little Zyclon-B
> around our feet. [...]"
Pirouetting Parasites, Batman! Leaping lice! Lice don't jump. At least,
mine don't. But maybe I don't feed them right. I have been feeling a bit run
down lately...
.
RE:Message 682 / Pooh.bah
> "We put on our gas masks and went in the room naked or wearing
underpants..."
Eureka! What a concept! Nude Fumigating! It will revolutionize the indus-
try! Stars! They must have been a sight!
.
RE: Message 795 / Pooh.Bah
> Now, no where does Mr. Leuchter enlighten us as to what his inspection
> verified these structures to have been CONVERTED into....yet, he does
> indicate that his inspection and the historical description agree.
Therefore,
> we are left to conclude that he agrees with the historical description that
> these structures were CONVERTED into gas chambers.
Nonsense, you reading into it again. It is quite clear. In the case
of Kremas II through V the conversion was one to rubble. For Krema I it is
a conversion to a surgery, then to a bomb shelter, and finally to a tourist
trap.
[Chigger]
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 863 Sat Apr 11, 1992
J.WEIR9 at 12:20 EDT
RE: Message 728 / G.Raven
Thank you for the upload tip.
.
RE:Message 725 / G.RAVEN
> Second, Kremer was a native German speaker, was he not? He certainly
> could have used the "vernichtungslager" construction if that is what
> he had meant, couldn't he?
If I am not mistaken, the term "vernichtungslager" is a postwar invention.
The Nazis did not classify any of their camps as "vernichtungslager" so it
quite possible he would use the other construct. I believe a more important
question is: Since he wrote Auschwitz was called "das Lager der Vernichtung"
for good reason, who else referred to it in those terms? What evidence is
there to show this term was a synonym for Auschwitz for anyone other than
Dr. Kremer?
This semantic hairsplitting over an ambiguous entry in an obscure doctor's
diary is symptomatic of the general poverty of documentary evidence for a
Nazi extermination program.
If the diary had said something like: "Dear Diary, Got up. Had breakfast.
Gassed some Jewish women and children. Had Lunch. Gassed some Gypsies to
death.
Had dinner. Gassed a mixed group of other non-Aryans. Went to bed. Gee this
monotony is really getting to me. I wish I was back in Berlin." I would say
that there may be something to this. But the entry I have seen in its
various
translations for September 2, 1942 could refer to any number of upsetting
events. Stating it refers to a gassing or a genocide program is simply
reading
into it something that is not there.
. [Chigger]
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 864 Sat Apr 11, 1992
J.WEIR9 at 12:22 EDT
RE: Message 711 / J.STENGEL
>[....] No, I definitely would not do so in "a room with an air
>concentration of HCN adequate to kill in 15 minutes"...my whole point on my
>post you cite is that with elementary ventilation, the chamber no longer
>contains "concentration of HCN adequate to kill in 15 minutes". When the
doors
>were CLOSED the HCN concentration WAS adequate to kill in 15 minutes. Now,
if
>the doors were opened and the air in the chamber was "changed", AND the
volume
>of the room outside the chamber was several times greater than the volume of
>the chamber...so that the concentration of HCN is lowered to a point
> "adequate to kill" in maybe a couple hours, [...]
We can all imagine a theoretical gas chamber which could be used to kill
large numbers of people in a short period of time. This is why the gassing
story has been so readily accepted even though most people do not know much
about chemistry or thermodynamics or have even seen a picture of a gas cham-
ber designed for such a purpose. Certainly Nazi Germany had the knowledge
and
the technology to produce such a device. They had tunnels designed and built
to fumigate railroad cars. They knew how to use Zyclon-B effectively.
The question before us is not could they have produced one or more gas
chambers,
nor even would they have done so, but DID they? If they did, where was it,
what did it look like, and how did operate? You speak of elementary ventila-
tion. Find a layout of Krema II and III at Birkenau. Look how the "gas cham-
ber" is situated in relation to the rest of the building. There is no
elementary ventilation. The only doorway from this room opens into the nexus
of the building, not to the outdoors. There are no windows, it is mostly be-
low ground. There is no proof the Nazis gassed anyone at Birkenau or at
any of the concentration camps. There is only testimony. Testimony is not
proof nor even very good evidence.
. [Chigger]
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 865 Sat Apr 11, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 13:32 EDT
POOH.BAH...message 853
According to the various reports, the sign at the Auschwitz museum did not
mention Jews at all. Does this mean that Auschwitz was dedicated to non-Jews,
so that any revisions of the numbers will not affect the Jewish totals? Your
hypothesis that downward revisions of fatality ESTIMATES in concentration
camps or other sites affects only non-Jews is a little thin.
As far as "exekutiert" goes, I have already stated that it is a German word,
but of foreign origins. Read posts CAREFULLY and COMPLETELY and you will not
be caught in these sorts of errors or distortions of what somebody else has
said. You basically changed the text and intent of my post and then started to
attack YOUR CREATION, not mine. If this is an authentic National Socialist
document, then the word choice is UNIQUE and highly suspect. It just does not
fit the mold for word useage in NS documents. These are the same people who
wouldn't allow the word "motor" for an engine because of its foreign, in this
case Greek, origins. The word Treibwerk was used instead. Fernsprecher was
used instead of telefon...etc.
C.FINK4...message 858
The German word "vernichten" means to destroy, literally "to make naught". The
translations of annihilation or extermination are a bit flowery. What was
basically said was that the camp had a high death rate. The REASONS for the
high death rate would need to be established separately and do not follow
automatically from Dr. Kremer's wording. On the other hand, Dr. Kremer was the
fellow who thought Upper Silesia was a tropical jungle, an observation which
would have been news to the local residents.
S.PIERCE6...message 859
The CBC (Radio Canada) evening news showed a group of people, purported to be
a collection of Jews from the U.S. and other places voicing their displeasure
with placard signs etc. to what they thought was a diminuation of the impact
of the holocaust story. Sorry, Sheri, but since this topic is rather
peripheral to my life rather than the centre of it, I do not record the time
and date of these productions.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 866 Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH at 14:06 EDT
862 Chigger:
> You seem to forget Krema I. It was not destroyed, and has been subject
> to the same environmental forces as had the delousing chamber and the
> cyanide levels there (Leuchter samples 25-31) were about the same as those
> for the other morgues.
Please cite a single source which claims that Krema I was never destroyed. I
certainly don't know of one.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 867 Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH at 14:07 EDT
862 Chigger:
> I have seen slides by Ditlieb Felderer of the exterior of one of the
> Birkenau delousing chambers where mattresses were leaned against the wall
> and beaten to drive the HCN gas out of them. The Prussian blue which
> formed on this wall which has been exposed to the elements for all these
> years is quite prominently visible.
"Prussian blue is a very widespread coloring material that is to be found in
great quantities on old walls as a residue of old painting or as a stain of
color that some kind of material that once leaned against this wall left
behind by fading into the wall. The mattresses that were used in the camps,
are known to be blue-white stripped mattresses and the blue of the mattresses
was produced by a Prussian blue."
Josef Bailer, PhD
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 868 Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH at 14:08 EDT
862 Chigger:
> The proof of the accident would be the injuries suffered, the damage done
> to the bicycle and the car, if any, and documents generated by the
> hospital visit, not the testimony of the accident victim.
Sorry, this is not totally correct. The testimony of the accident victim
would also be part of the proof of the accident. For instance, was the
bicycle rider on the shoulder of the road, on the road, begin to fall before
impact, was another car approaching and the car that hit the rider swerved to
avoid that car, etc.? These facts usually can only be determined by
eyewitness testimony.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 869 Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH at 14:08 EDT
862 Chigger:
> While this may have contributed to the heating of the air, I do not
> believe these people would have had much effect on the concrete in the
> floor, walls, and ceiling where the condensation would have taken place.
HCN is lighter than air (0.97:1) and would rise and disperse quickly.
Although some of the HCN would come into contact with the walls, floor and
ceiling, it was also quickly vented out of the chambers and the amount of
condensation would be minimal.
Add to this the composition of the walls, floor and ceiling (lime and water
with the additional dampness) and any HCN present would have been destroyed.
Also, it is unlikely that Prussian blue arose in these walls, because the
iron in the bricks and in the burnt lime acted unfavorably for the reaction
of the trivalent form of iron and because the alkaline environment hindered
the reaction.
The above information is courtesy of the eminent Austrian chemist, Josef
Bailer, PhD.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 870 Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH at 14:09 EDT
862 Chigger:
> If we were talking about one body in an open field I would agree. The
> problem is we are stuck with an unventilated 2500 sq. ft. basement with
> 300 unexhaling bodies in it.
"One can recognize from the blue prints the presence of ventilation shafts in
the walls. Exhaust fans saw to the rapid suction of gas from the gas chamber
and the rapid introduction of air following the extermination actions."
The above is from Werner Wegner, PhD. He is an Austrian historian who was
born in 1907 and began researching Auschwitz and the Nazi extermination
program in the late 1940s.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 871 Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH at 14:10 EDT
862 Chigger:
> Nonsense, you reading into it again. It is quite clear. In the case
> of Kremas II through V the conversion was one to rubble. For Krema I it is
> a conversion to a surgery, then to a bomb shelter, and finally to a
> tourist trap.
"....Leuchter declares that the alleged gas chambers have the appearance of
an earlier construction, designated purpose and manner of construction. This
is perfectly correct only in reference to the 'country houses' - Bunkers I
and II - that were reconstructed from houses for gassing
purposes.....Leuchter maintains that in the case of the Kremas that we are
dealing with rebuilt mortuaries or morgues that were connected to the
crematoria and were lodged in the same structure. This was the case only in
Krema I where the mortuary that belonged to the crematorium was used to gas
people for a period of time. All other Kremas (II-V) were planned and built
beforehand exclusively as extermination structures, with disrobing rooms,
gassing rooms and incineration rooms, which can be verified by the wealth of
the testimony from depositions of witnesses and perpetrators, blue prints,
material management and building orders. Thus it cannot be a question of
reconstruction." Werner Wegner, PhD.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 872 Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH at 14:10 EDT
862 Chigger:
> Stating it refers to a gassing or a genocide program is simply reading
> into it something that is not there.
Perhaps it would be worthwhile to review the entire diary entry for that day
again.
From the diary of Dr. Johann Kremer
2 September 1942
This morning at three o'clock I attended a special action for the first time.
Dante's hell seemed like a comedy in comparison. Not for nothing is Auschwitz
called an extermination camp.
This is a direct reference to a "special action" (i.e. Sonderaktion). Could
you please analyze the above diary entry in its entirety and explain exactly
what you think it does mean? Thank you.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 873 Sat Apr 11, 1992
TERMY at 14:16 EDT
In reply to: Message 846 G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]
-> Personally, I don't care if EVERYONE else finds these few
->postings to be sufficient. I do not.
Obviously.
->You fail to recognize my agreement that the activities of the
->Einsatzgruppen sometimes resulted in the killing of Jews. This
->is a special case.
This is incorrect. I fail to agree with your assertion that the activities of
the Einsatzgruppen sometimes resulted in the killing of Jews. Instead, I
prefer to hold to the truth that they were formed with the express purpose of
killing Jews, Gypsies, etc., and did so in quite large numbers. "Sometimes"
means occassionally. The EK3 report I uploaded shows the activities of one
Einsatzkommando, a unit of an Einsatzgruppe, and details the deaths of over
130,000 Jews, Jewesses, Jewish children, Communists of various nationalities,
Gypsies, etc., over a period of a few months. This is NOT a "sometime"
activity, especially when several of the listings say "All Jews, all Jewesses,
all Jewish children" in a given town.
Further, the report effectively refutes the assertion that Jews were being
killed only because they were a political risk. Children aren't political
risks.
->The court case of Tauber is another special case.
I quite agree, and am glad that you acknowledge this. That the SS and Police
Supreme Court would issue a verdict which declares the necessity of killing
all the Jews is indeed a special case, and quite a damning verdict, in more
ways than one.
------
The report that Himmler sent to Hitler indicates quite clearly that both knew
large numbers of Jews were being killed. The Posen speeches indicate Himmler
advocated the extermination of the Jews-- speak to us of these. Several of
the documents I've uploaded treat the extermination of the Jews as common
knowledge, with only relatively small numbers (see the EK3 report's
"discussion") being kept alive to perform skilled labor for the war effort.
Even those were under death sentence, or were to be sterilized in order to
"bring about a solution to the Jewish question in this generation."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 874 Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH at 14:49 EDT
865 Hans-Peter:
> Does this mean that Auschwitz was dedicated to non-Jews, so that any
> revisions of the numbers will not affect the Jewish totals? Your
> hypothesis that downward revisions of fatality ESTIMATES in concentration
> camps or other sites affects only non-Jews is a little thin.
Once again, Hans-Peter, I will repeat: The figures that were posted by the
Auschwitz Museum were never used by historians to determine the number of
Jews who were exterminated there. You are the one who has repeatedly insisted
that these figures had previously been used by historians and that once these
figures were revised (BECAUSE of the work of historians!) that the overall
total of Jewish deaths AS PREVIOUSLY DETERMINED BY HISTORIANS must also be
decreased.
As one who works in mathematical physics, let me put it in terms that might
make sense to you.
According to sources which used the figures from the Auschwitz Museum (such
as yourself), these sources have taken that figure and the total figure from
historians and arrived at the following formula:
X - Y = Z
In this formula, X = the total from historians, Y = the figure from the
Auschwitz Museum and Z = the remaining death outside of Auschwitz.
The historians, OTOH, have used the following formula:
A + B + C = T
In this formula, A = the number of deaths from ALL camps, B = the number of
executions, liquidations, etc. from outside of the camp system, C = the
number of deaths from privation, medical experiments, etc. and T = the total
of these figures summed.
If you will notice, one of the formulas uses the Auschwitz Museum figures and
the other does not. To now claim that "T" must be reduced by an amount equal
to the decrease of "Y" is nonsensical.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 875 Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH at 14:50 EDT
865 Hans-Peter:
> As far as "exekutiert" goes, I have already stated that it is a German
> word, but of foreign origins. Read posts CAREFULLY and COMPLETELY and you
> will not be caught in these sorts of errors or distortions of what
> somebody else has said.
You stated that "exekutiert" means "mortgaged" in Austrian useage. Now, this
isn't quite true, is it? Shall I repost the definition from the German
dictionary?
> If this is an authentic National Socialist document, then the word choice
> is UNIQUE and highly suspect. It just does not fit the mold for word
> useage in NS documents.
How many NS documents have you studied or does your knowledge come from other
than simple scholarship? Have you ever read the Einsatzgruppen reports? You
might just find that the word usage isn't very unique. Willing to take that
chance?
Even if the word usage WAS unique (which it isn't), you are still implying
that the Americans, British or Canadians were too stupid to realize this and
used terminology which would be "suspect." Is that what you mean?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 876 Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH at 14:51 EDT
865 Hans-Peter:
> The German word "vernichten" means to destroy, literally "to make naught".
> The translations of annihilation or extermination are a bit flowery. What
> was basically said was that the camp had a high death rate. The REASONS
> for the high death rate would need to be established separately and do not
> follow automatically from Dr. Kremer's wording.
If "vernichten" means to destroy then "Vernichtung" means destruction. Yet,
you state that "das Lager der Vernichtung" simply indicates a "high death
rate." Destruction strongly implies ACTION that would account for a "high
death rate."
Plus, I don't believe that you are taking into consideration the total entry:
From the diary of Dr. Johann Kremer
2 September 1942
This morning at three o'clock I attended a special action for the first time.
Dante's hell seemed like a comedy in comparison. Not for nothing is Auschwitz
called an extermination camp.
-------------
What would be your guess as to what "Sonderaktion" means in this context and
how does this complete entry influence your interpretation of "Vernichtung"?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 877 Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH at 14:52 EDT
865 Hans-Peter:
> On the other hand, Dr. Kremer was the fellow who thought Upper Silesia was
> a tropical jungle, an observation which would have been news to the local
> residents.
First, Dr. Kremer never said anything about a "jungle." Second, as has been
previously pointed out, the weather for that time could have been unusually
warm.
This last December I had friends contact me for information about the weather
in Israel. They had just received a phone call from their son who was
visiting there. Their son told them that he would have to delay his trip home
because he was snowed in! They didn't know whether they should believe him or
not. However, he was staying in Jerusalem and they did indeed have between 1-
1 1/2 feet of snow at the time. The Negev Desert also saw snow for the first
time. Anyone who had never been to Israel might make a diary entry that
Jerusalem (or even the Negev) was a "winter wonderland" and 50 years later,
people such as yourself would scoff at them.
Why don't you do a little research and find out what the temperature was at
that time?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 878 Sat Apr 11, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 17:11 EDT
>> The CBC (Radio Canada) evening news showed a group of people, purported to
be a collection of Jews from the U.S. and other places voicing their
displeasure with placard signs etc. to what they thought was a diminuation of
the impact of the holocaust story. Sorry, Sheri, but since this topic is
rather peripheral to my life rather than the centre of it, I do not record the
time and date of these productions.
Organized Jewish protests centered on Auschwitz have concerned the Camelite
convent, the inaccuracy of the plaques, and the designation of victims by
country of origin rather than by targetted group. When they were filmed
voicing their "displeasure with placard signs etc," I presume it was prior to
the revisions, since changes themselves have been welcome.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 879 Sat Apr 11, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 17:12 EDT
POOH.BAH...message 875
Oh come on, POOH.BAH, write a letter of complaint to the publishers of the
OXFORD DUDEN GERMAN-ENGLISH dictionary and tell them that they don't
understand any German. That dictionary states that "executiert" is used in
Austria for "verpfaendet".
My father worked for many years for the ministry of the interior, and saw
countless thousands of official documents. Your document was the first one he
has seen that uses that word in that context. It looks like the kind of thing
that the allies put together as "proof" to justify the convictions at
Nuremberg, which were in any case decided "in advance" by the politicians at
Yalta. The only reason that the people charged with the murders of the Polish
officers at Katyn were acquitted, in violation of the Yalta agreement, was
that their lawyers were able dodge allied efforts to prevent their
introduction of physical evidence which made nonsense of the allied forgeries.
It was feared by the western allies that a conviction which flies in the face
of the laws of time and space could expose the proceedings for the farce that
they were. The Russians couldn't understand why a conviction which violates
the laws of nature should be a problem, since they saw court proceedings as a
political tool to advance the cause of the powers that be. They lodged a
formal complaint of the acquittal. Naturally, they must have been aware that
THEY and THEY alone were responsible for Katyn and numerous other atrocities
as well.
As a consequence of this and other events, I tend to take the presentation of
"documents" with a grain of salt.
The bike example of a few posts back is quite good. What some of the
respondents appear to be telling me is that I have to accept their paper
evidence in the form of statements, anecdotal reports, diaries, and that sort
of stuff. I'm asking to see and examine the damaged bike, the physical
evidence. I'm being told that it is impolite to ask to see that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
A quality forgery takes some time. The allies were frequently in a rush,
since they had some 10 million former party members who needed to be
"cleansed" in their de-nazification courts. They needed some dirt on all these
people, and if there wasn't any, they simply manufactured it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no quarrel with your contention that there are some very hot days in
Upper Silesia, especially during the summer. It is also true, that -40'C or
lower in the winter is not unusual. This is more than cold enough to have
trouble vaporizing materials that boil in the vicinity of +25'C.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 880 Sat Apr 11, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 18:20 EDT
Hans-Peter 879
>> I'm asking to see and examine the damaged bike
Why don't you meet some survivors and take a look at their scars. You belong
to the last generation physically able to do so.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 881 Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH at 20:59 EDT
879 Hans-Peter:
> Oh come on, POOH.BAH, write a letter of complaint to the publishers of the
> OXFORD DUDEN GERMAN-ENGLISH dictionary and tell them that they don't
> understand any German. That dictionary states that "executiert" is used in
> Austria for "verpfaendet".
Isn't it interesting that the definition must have altered from the time that
_Das Wissen unserer Zeit: Immer auf dem neuesten Stand. Knaurs Lexikon A-Z_
was published in Muenchen in 1931?
BTW, you stated that your German-English dictionary defines "executiert" (not
exeKutiert"!) as "verpfaendet." Since when does a German-English dictionary
define a German word with a German word?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 882 Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH at 21:00 EDT
879 Hans-Peter:
This is interesting. You state the case about the Soviets manufacturing
evidence concerning the Katyn massacre and then use this as a reason why no
document should be believed. BTW, you do know that the Nazis discovered that
some what was later claimed to be "manufactured" evidence was indeed true
(while the Nazis were in power, of course) and covered it up so as not to
demoralize their troops or raise questions about themselves, don't you?
Be that as it may, you originally claimed that the document which Termy
posted had originally been written in English and then translated into
German. Yet, you attempt to validate this with an example from the Soviets.
Does that mean that you equate the Western Allies with the Soviets?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 883 Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH at 21:01 EDT
879 Hans-Peter:
> The bike example of a few posts back is quite good. What some of the
> respondents appear to be telling me is that I have to accept their paper
> evidence in the form of statements, anecdotal reports, diaries, and that
> sort of stuff. I'm asking to see and examine the damaged bike, the
> physical evidence. I'm being told that it is impolite to ask to see that.
Paper is something that is physical. But, let's go back to the bike analogy.
Let's say that the driver of the car was discovered to have written a letter
of protest about how bike riders were taking over the highways and how he (or
she) was sick of it and was going to do something about it. Are you
suggesting that this "paper evidence" should not be used to prove motive?
What you desire is FORENSIC evidence as opposed to just physical evidence. In
1945, the Krakow Institute of Forensic Expertise (the same Institute that did
the recent study) performed forensic tests on six grills from the ventilation
system of Krema II. Two reagents were used in those tests. The first reagent
produced a bluish coloration indicating that Prussian blue had been formed.
The second reagent produced an orange hue indicating that thiocynate had been
created by the reaction. This combination indicated the presence of large
quantities of hydrocyanic compounds.
Now, you will probably claim that these test were done by the "communists"
and, therefore, are invalid. Or, you will claim that there could be other
reasons (besides gas chambers) for the existence of these hydrocyanic
compounds. Yet, when these tests are combined with the other physical
evidence (which you also deny as being "forged") the case is made.
BTW, you never answered my question regarding Dr. Kremer's full diary entry
for September 2, 1942. What is your interpretation of "Sonderaktion" and "das
Lager der Vernichtung" in that entry?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 884 Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH at 21:01 EDT
879 Hans-Peter:
> A quality forgery takes some time. The allies were frequently in a rush,
> since they had some 10 million former party members who needed to be
> "cleansed" in their de-nazification courts. They needed some dirt on all
> these people, and if there wasn't any, they simply manufactured it.
Please cite sources for this and, while you are at it, you might attempt to
explain why the document which Termy u/l'ed (you know the one in which
"exekutieren" was used) was typed on the special typewriter used exclusively
for documents for Hitler's approval or review. Are you now claiming that the
Allies were careful enough to use the right typewriter but too hurried or
careless to use the correct terminology?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 885 Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH at 21:02 EDT
879 Hans-Peter:
> I have no quarrel with your contention that there are some very hot days
> in Upper Silesia, especially during the summer. It is also true, that
> -40'C or lower in the winter is not unusual. This is more than cold enough
> to have trouble vaporizing materials that boil in the vicinity of +25'C.
Only if those materials are used outside in the -40'C temperature...which, as
you know, was not the case.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 886 Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH at 22:03 EDT
879 Hans-Peter:
> My father worked for many years for the ministry of the interior, and saw
> countless thousands of official documents. Your document was the first one
> he has seen that uses that word in that context.
BTW, isn't the Department of Transportation under the auspices of the
Ministry of the Interior?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 887 Sat Apr 11, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 22:40 EDT
S.PIERCE6...message 880
Sheri, I have no doubt that survivors of the NS camps have deep physical
and/or psychological scars. These wounds are quite real, and to my mind at
least, not subject to dispute. My questions concern the overall dimensions,
the estimates of the magnitude of this event.
We are talking about a program for which there was no budget allocation and
which no Reichstag ever voted to implement. It was not therefore a policy of
the German state. Even if direct orders signed by Hitler were to be found at
some future date, it does not alter the fact that this was essentially a
private project of the National Socialist party. The program was apparently
financed through confiscation of property from the victims and reasonably well
concealed from the German general public. The "special actions" were generally
implemented by paramilitary groups associated with the NS party. The Wehrmacht
had more than enough to do just to maintain itself in the field. These other
things tended to occur after the regular soldiers had come and gone. As a
matter of fact, these measures would tend to have had the effect of
undermining the field status of the Wehrmacht by increasing partisan activity
against them. In the years that my father worked for the ministry of the
interior, one of his jobs was to make sure that munitions and other supplies
got to the front. The opinions of Mr. Speer notwithstanding, no official of
the Reichsbahn ever refused to make a train available to transport supplies on
the basis that the trains were booked to carry people to concentration camps.
Any person who would have interfered with the transport of supplies in this
way would have found himself in court charged with treason.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
POOH.BAH...message 881
My apologies, a slight muscle spasm in my fingers changed the spelling. It
should be "exekutiert" with a "k". I'm so used to this as an English word that
I almost automatically spell it with a "c". The Duden does indeed print
alternatives in German along with its English translation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
POOH.BAH...message 882
The principal difference between the western and eastern allies was in degree
rather than quality. The western allies were certainly not saints.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
POOH.BAH...message 883
Compounds involving the CN radical on the ventilation system grills would
suggest at least one exposure to something containing hydrocyanic acid. The
large amount comment does not follow from this evidence alone. If my memory
serves me correctly, you said that these people also tested the walls and
found more or less the same low figures as more modern research. This was
explained as the result of weathering. Were these grills stored out of harm's
way? Another post pointed out that the structure standing on the site now ,and
which is described as the gas chamber, has no ventilation system and that the
doors were used for this purpose. I think it was Sheri who revised the figures
up again to 1.6 million. This many people don't vanish without a trace. Even
if they were cremated with the most extreme efficiency, there should be at
least 1600 tonnes of ash. If some of the victims were not cremated, then there
should be even more remains. This sort of evidence has not been found.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
For some reason, Dr. Kremer is being vague and evasive. He hints that
something dark and unpleasant is happening, but he never actually SAYS what it
is. You are projecting your understanding of what occurred onto his comments
and then arguing that his comments prove your understanding.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 888 Sat Apr 11, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 22:57 EDT
POOH.BAH...message 886
I'm starting to think that this is a plot to wear me out. I'll answer this one
and then I'm going to turn in. I do need some sleep from time to time.
The Ministry of the Interior would have dealt with virtually all internal
matters, but not necessarily directly. The Reichsbahn had its own
administration. The railway would be financially responsible to the Ministry
of the Interior, but not for day to day operations. There were some 5 million
civil service types who managed the various ministries and departments.
Present-day Germany requires even more people to administer the state.
Americans would probably find such all-pervasive government disturbing. You
don't have to go as far away as Germany. It apparently takes almost 2 million
people to administer Canada, which has only one tenth the population of the
U.S.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 889 Sat Apr 11, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl] at 23:11 EDT
Pooh.bah:
>> What you desire is FORENSIC evidence as opposed to just physical
>>evidence. In 1945, the Krakow Institute of Forensic Expertise (the
>>same Institute that did the recent study) performed forensic tests
>>on six grills from the ventilation system of Krema II. Two
>>reagents were used in those tests. The first reagent produced a
>>bluish coloration indicating that Prussian blue had been formed.
>> The second reagent produced an orange hue indicating that >>thiocynate had
been created by the reaction. This combination
>>indicated the presence of large quantities of hydrocyanic
>>compounds.
Tested grills "..from the ventilation systems..."?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[Emphasis mine] Can you give more information on this report, Pooh? Raven,
RUNGU, and J.WEIR have been saying that we have no evidence such ventilation
systems even existed.
Carl Fink
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 890 Sun Apr 12, 1992
D.BRIN1 at 00:49 EDT
Mr. Raven: I see that you acknowledge that the crematoria were housed in the
same facility as the gas chambers. Do you also acknowledge that these
crematoria would tend to heat the entire building -- making them rather
toasty, in fact?
Ah, but you say that these crematoria would ignite the HCN gas from the
chambers, causing an explosion. I decided to see what Jean-Claude Pressac had
to say about the subject:
"Leuchter's last claim about the homicidal gas chambers in connection with the
cremation furnaces is that they are incompatible under the same roof. As soon
as the door was opened to the area saturated with hydrocyanic acid, the same
being without ventilation according to Leuchter, the gas would be spread
throughout the crematorium, reaching the lit ovens, and, combined with the
air, would have exploded, destroying the entire building.
"HCN's flammability limits in air are from 5.6% (minimum) to 40% (maximum) in
volume (6%-41% according to Du Pont). This signifies that upon contact with a
flame there is an explosion if the concentration of hydrocyanic acid in air
comprises between 67.2 g/m(cubed) and 480 g/m(cubed). Below 67.2 g/m(cubed)
there is no risk, nor is there any at greater than 480 g/m(cubed), because
there is not enough remaining oxygen for burning to begin.
"The SS used doses of 5 g/m(cubed) in delousing and 12-20 g/m(cubed) in
killing, well under the 67.2 g/m(cubed) threshold. Their gas chambers and
crematoriums were not about to explode.
"leuchter's 'impartial' opinion is based upon an incorrect calculation. The
twisted idea comes from Faurisson. It is appalling that Leuchter should have
backed it up without checking it out for himself."
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 891 Sun Apr 12, 1992
D.BRIN1 at 00:53 EDT
Mr. Raven, you expressed your skepticism about insects' superior
resistance to HCN while we were discussing this matter on the PEN
network in Santa Monica. If you choose to deny that you expressed this
skepticism, I will be happy to reproduce it here.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 892 Sun Apr 12, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri] at 03:18 EDT
887
Dr. Kremer testified to the existence of the gas chambers and the full
dimension of a "special action" at his war crimes trial. So he clarified the
"dark and unpleasant happening"s of Auschwitz.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 893 Sun Apr 12, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 07:18 EDT
D.BRIN1...message 890
Your concentration values reverse the statements made by POOH.BAH and others
that the gas concentrations in the homicidal gas chambers would have been
lower than in the delousing chambers. This was supposed to explain the
relative absence of CN compounds in the walls of the shower room. Your figures
would suggest concentrations up to 4 times that of the delousing chamber and
yet it was the delousing chamber which had lots of evidence of HCN exposure.
Working on the assumption that none of the respondents here are out to
deliberately pull the wool over our eyes, it would appear that some of the
expert sources being cited are just as speculative as F.Leuchter and others
are accused of being. Such large variations in values, even to the point of
contradiction, suggest very strongly that there is no definite information.
S.PIERCE6...message 892
I'm not familiar with the Kremer trial, Sheri, but I do hope that it was not
another Hoess confession in which the British interrogators created the
confession and then subjected the accused to "physical pressure" (ie.
beatings, torture, etc.) until the document was signed. Many of the trials of
this period were comparable to those staged by the late and unlamented
Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 894 Sun Apr 12, 1992
AH.STEIN at 09:58 EDT
887 Hans-Peter:
>My questions concern the overall dimensions, the estimates of the
magnitude of this event.
Every once in a while, you include a small phrase such as this which
indicates that you actually do recognize that the Holocaust did occur, and
that you merely are uncertain about the exact number of Jews and others who
were killed.
Unfortunately, the tone of most of your messages are in line with those of
the infamous Holocaust Deniers, and make it appear that you are trying to
deny the Holocaust completely. You might want to make your interest
clearer, so that you do not appear to be a tool of the neo-Nazi
disinformation machine.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 895 Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:21 EDT
887 Hans-Peter:
> It was not therefore a policy of the German state. Even if direct orders
> signed by Hitler were to be found at some future date, it does not alter
> the fact that this was essentially a private project of the National
> Socialist party.
I'm sure you have probably noticed that I don't say "Germany" or "Germans"
did this or that but, instead, say "Nazi Germany" (when I need to mention the
country) or "Nazis." In this way, there is some agreement between the two of
us. However, your claim that just because the Reichstag never legislated a
policy that it makes everything done a non-policy of the German state bears
examination. You have said that your maternal grandfather perished in the
euthanasia program. Just out of curiosity, do you consider the euthanasia
program to be a "policy of the German state" or a "private project of the
National Socialist party"?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 896 Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:21 EDT
887 Hans-Peter:
> If my memory serves me correctly, you said that these people also tested
> the walls and found more or less the same low figures as more modern
> research.
The Krakow Institute of Forensic Expertise tested the grills in 1945. It
wasn't until 1990 that they tested the walls.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 897 Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:21 EDT
887 Hans-Peter:
> Another post pointed out that the structure standing on the site now ,and
> which is described as the gas chamber, has no ventilation system and that
> the doors were used for this purpose.
I believe it has been Raven who has been alleging that the gas chambers had
no ventilation system. This, of course, is more disinformation. Even the blue
prints indicate the ventilation shafts and there are construction orders for
the ventilation fans, etc.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 898 Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:22 EDT
887 Hans-Peter:
> I think it was Sheri who revised the figures up again to 1.6 million.
If you will re-read Sheri's message you will discover that the 1.6 million
was in reference to EVERYONE (as opposed to "Jews") who perished at
Auschwitz. Does your rehashing this once again mean the you are denying that
the Nazis exterminated non-Jews (i.e. homosexuals, Gypsies, Poles, Russian
POWs, etc.)?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 899 Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:22 EDT
887 Hans-Peter:
> This many people don't vanish without a trace. Even if they were cremated
> with the most extreme efficiency, there should be at least 1600 tonnes of
> ash.
Could you please substantiate the figure of "1600 tonnes"?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 900 Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:23 EDT
887 Hans-Peter:
> For some reason, Dr. Kremer is being vague and evasive. He hints that
> something dark and unpleasant is happening, but he never actually SAYS
> what it is.
You have yet to answer the question. What is your interpretation of Dr.
Kremer's diary entry. Please explain your interpretation of "Sonderaktion"
and "das Lager der Vernichtung" for us.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 901 Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:24 EDT
889 Carl:
> Raven, RUNGU, and J.WEIR have been saying that we have no evidence such
> ventilation systems even existed.
Three of the six grills that were tested are at the Auschwitz Museum (hence,
physical evidence of the existence of the ventilation system). Also, the blue
prints clearly show the ventilation shafts and there are purchase orders,
construction orders, etc. for ventilation fans for the gas chambers.
Raven's comments on the lack of ventilation systems come from Leuchter who
states that "much of the reviewed material was literature purchased and
viewed at the sites in Poland, including copies of original drawings of
Kremas I, II, III, IV and V." However, these original drawings can only be
obtained through the Auschwitz Museum. When queried, the Museum director
stated in writing "neither authorization [for sample gathering] nor
blueprints given to Leuchter from museum."
Leuchter arrived at his false conclusions based solely upon the examination
of piles of rubble.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 902 Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:24 EDT
893 Hans-Peter:
> Your concentration values reverse the statements made by POOH.BAH and
> others that the gas concentrations in the homicidal gas chambers would
> have been lower than in the delousing chambers.
First, D.BRIN didn't make these statements - he was quoting Pressac. Pressac
was commenting on the MAXIMUM that would have been used (i.e. the quantity
used in US gas chambers).
However, assuming that the maximum would have been used all the time, that
would mean that 12 g/m^3 was present for 15 minutes in each use of the
homicidal gas chamber. Yet, the delousing chamber would have been exposed to
5 g/m^3 for at least 2 hours per occasion. The delousing chambers had no
special ventilation system (but the homicidal gas chambers did) and had to
air out more slowly.
As a scientist I'm sure you realize that the LENGTH of exposure (if not more
so) is just as significant as the concentration.
Also, your comment does not consider the differences in environmental
influences over the last 43 years.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 903 Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH at 12:25 EDT
893 Hans-Peter:
> I'm not familiar with the Kremer trial, Sheri, but I do hope that it was
> not another Hoess confession in which the British interrogators created
> the confession and then subjected the accused to "physical pressure" (ie.
> beatings, torture, etc.) until the document was signed. Many of the trials
> of this period were comparable to those staged by the late and unlamented
> Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran.
Be careful....your agenda is showing.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 904 Sun Apr 12, 1992
D.BRIN1 at 15:54 EDT
Hans-Peter:
Quoting again from Pressac:
"The HCN was in physical contact with the (homicidal) gas chamber walls for no
more than ten minut for no more than ten minutes a day...In the delousing
chambers, a minimum of 5g/m^3 was used over the course of several daily
cycles, the length of which varied according to the amount of time chosen for
the period of contact. This cyanide saturation for 12 TO 18 HOURS A DAY
(emphasis mine) was strengthened by the heat the stoves in the room
emitted...The walls were impregnated with HOT (emphasis mine) HCN for at least
12 hours a day..."
I believe that this adequately explains how the delousing chambers could
retain higher levels of HCN than the rubble of the homicidal gas chambers.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 905 Sun Apr 12, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 16:11 EDT
POOH.BAH...message 895
My grandfather fell victim to people who disregarded the established laws of
Germany. The people who were responsible took their orders from the NS party,
not from the German state or its legally constituted authorities.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
POOH.BAH...message 898
In case it was missed the first time, I'm not denying anything. I'm trying to
establish what you regard as the authoritative figure. They keep floating
around so that I feel like somebody watching one of those "pea under a walnut
shell tricks" where I have to guess where the pea is now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
POOH.BAH...message 899
There is a minimum of 1 kg of mineral ash in your typical person. Taking
Sheri's figures of 1.6E6 x 1 kg = 1.6E6 kg = 1.6E3 tonnes. With your figures,
it would only be 1.1E3 tonnes. Either way, it is rather too much to sweep into
the privy where later investigators might miss it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
POOH.BAH...message 900
"Sonderaktion" leaves the impression of special action in the sense of being
at variance with standard practice or regulations. "Interpretation" of
something like this is speculation. It COULD mean what you obviously want it
to mean, but it does not specifically state that. Why would "Sonder..." be
used to describe an action which you argue was day to day routine, nothing
unusual, and perfectly in accord with their instructions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
POOH.BAH...message 902
It is quite logical for both time and concentration to be significant. I was
just asking for clarification, since the data was starting to creep all over
the place and self-adjust to suit the occasion. You have answered my question.
Thank you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
POOH.BAH...message 903
And what agenda is that POOH.BAH? The German government had to pay out huge
sums to compensate the victims of the allied "courts" when the victims finally
got the chance to present their cases before a regular court in which
internationally recognized standards of evidence applied, rather than to a
biased, political, alien, kangaroo court. What else can one say to a system in
which the prosecutors and judges were of one nationality and the defendants of
another and where laws created especially for this purpose were applied
retroactively?
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 906 Sun Apr 12, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 16:25 EDT
D.BRIN1...message 904
Thank you Mr. Brin, for your clarification. I think POOH.BAH beat you to a
response. Thank you also for the civil tone of your response. I'm a very
patient person, but I am starting to get a little irritated with the tone and
innuendo of some of the responses. A post in a badgering style is simply not
worth the effort to make a reply.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 907 Sun Apr 12, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter] at 16:50 EDT
AH.STEIN
Alan, you will not be able to cite a single post in which I have made any
personal attacks against you or been rude to you.
Loaded words like "neo-Nazi" or "tool of...", etc. really don't enhance your
presentation. My mind works in linear logic, so when I see you make these
nonsensical statements about me personally, I start to think that if his
thinking leads him this far off the mark here, then perhaps the rest of his
statements are worthless also.
------------
Category 15, Topic 9
Message 908 Sun Apr 12, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton] at 16:52 EDT
This topic has grown over 900 messages, and has been closed. The new topic
for continuation of this discussion is Category 15 Topic 13. The same rules
apply there. I have been pleased with the serious effort at discovery and
intellectual debate here over the last week, and I hope it will continue.
The first topic has been archived and is available for downloading in the
Public Forum Library. (The filename is HOLO.ARC) This topic will be archived
to the library over the next few days, so take this time to capture any
messages you may wish to save before then. The message numbers in the topic
will not be altered by cleaning, so references to message numbers will remain
accurate.
Discussion continues in Cat 15 Topic 13. Thank you.
-Ric/PF*NPC
------------
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