Archive/File: holocaust/usa/ihr raven.0594
Last-Modified: 1994/05/12

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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Reply to Keren's "rebuttal"
Date: 11 May 1994 04:06:14 GMT
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In Message-ID: <2pk1dd$2e2@netnews.alf.dec.com>, Danny Keren tries to

respond to my critique of his initial attempt to provide the best one or

two pieces of evidence that prove there was a Nazi plan to exterminate 
Jews

in gas chambers. Instead of the devastating rebuttal Keren seems to think

he has delivered, he has actually admitted:



1) there is no single piece of evidence that shows a Nazi plan to

exterminate Jews in gas chambers.



2) each of his "component" pieces of "evidence" must be supported by other

pieces, which are themselves similarly in need of support from other

pieces.



3) he is out of touch with recent developments in the historiography of 
the

Holocaust, meaning he still feels the various statements by Auschwitz

Commandant Rudolf Hoess are valid.



4) he has provided no proof of gassings at the so-called main gas chambers

at Birkenau.



5) he is unaware of the details of an execution using HCN gas, and

furthermore does not appreciate the difference between Zyklon B and HCN

gas.



6) he has not read the Kremer diary he alludes to in one of his 
adminicles.



It is also obvious that Keren cannot respond to me on this topic without

stooping to personal attacks.



More to the point, however, even though Keren repeats my challenge, he

clearly has failed to understand it. For him, faulty testimony about 
Soviet

POW being gassed is proof that the Nazis had a plan to exterminate Jews in

gas chambers. He simply does not see there is no connection.



Perhaps Keren realizes at some level he has utterly failed to provide a

substantive response to my challenge, as he now is attempting to divert 
the

discussion away from the Auschwitz/Birkenau camp, where he himself chose 
to

start, by now claiming that there is "evidence" of gassings at camps where

it is now widely acknowledged that there were no gas chambers. To do this,

he attempts to lean on an alleged statement from the Institute for

Contemporary History in Germany, without mentioning that as long ago as

August 19, 1960, the director of that Institute, Dr. Martin Broszat,

acknowledged in Die Zeit that "Neither in Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor

in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners gassed." Broszat goes on to say

that there were no gas chambers in "the Old Reich" (the pre-war borders of

Germany.



It is also interesting that Keren would start out claiming that the best

evidence comes from camps liberated by the Soviets, which no Western 
allies

visited to verify Communist claims against the Fascists (Nazis), and then

in effect change positions and claim that there is evidence that gassings

occured in camps liberated by Western allies, camps about which we know a

great deal more than we do the Eastern, Soviet-liberated camps.



If Keren wishes to shift the focus from one camp to another, that is fine

with me. All he has to do is select a camp on which to focus, and provide

one or two pieces of evidence that support his position that Nazis planned

to exterminate Jews in gas chambers.



Keren is correct, by the way, in stating that I am trying to narrow the

discussion. The reason I am trying to narrow it is because I would like us

all to be talking about the same thing. It is impossible to accomplish

anything if we skip from camp to camp, and from document to document

whenever the mood strikes us. If the Holocaust is, as Keren (and Michael

Berenbaum of the U.S.H.M.M.) claims, one of the best documented events in

Western history, then it should be a trivial matter to choose a document

that supports Keren's position, so that we may discuss it.


Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
For free information from the IHR, E-mail me your mailing address, or 
contact me
at: PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659. You will not be put on a mailing 
list.
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Reply to Keren's "rebuttal"
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of 11 May 1994 04:06:14 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <2qpljm$gpc@kaiwan.kaiwan.com>
Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 07:06:30 GMT
Lines: 213


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>1) there is no single piece of evidence that shows a Nazi plan to
>
>exterminate Jews in gas chambers.

His point was that there is no *single* piece of evidence that shows
that Word War II occurred, as an analogy.

Your emphasis was on the best one or two single pieces of evidence,
which was rejected as a criteria.

Now you are playing stupid and transparent word games implying there
exists no single piece of evidence (as in none.)

You must play this game with children too much.

It's also relevant that you reject all eyewitness testimony a priori,
including eyewitness testimony without any particular motivation to
lie (e.g. memorandum written between Nazi officers in the course of
their duties describing the gassing.)

What's the point?

Given your silly game-playing who cares what you believe? You will
obviously believe what you want to believe anyhow, no one owes you or
your few friends any explanation.

Rational people have long ago been convinced by the overwhelming bulk
of evidence. It's all available to anyone here.

The only people here who have claimed to doubt this also managed to
describe themselves as neo-nazis or similar in the same context and
most didn't really care what was true or not it just plays into their
anti-semitic political goals. At least they are honest.

You however still seem to believe you can pull one over on everyone
with silly word games.


>2) each of his "component" pieces of "evidence" must be supported by other
>
>pieces, which are themselves similarly in need of support from other
>
>pieces.

So what?

Given the existence of a gas chamber you have to show that it was used
on someone. Given that it was used on someone you have to show that
they died from this use. Given that they died from this use in order
to show a systematic plan to murder millions of civilians you have to
show that it was used over and over. etc.

Now you want one single piece of evidence that stands alone supporting
what is by definition a long and repeated process only of significance
due to the sum of the evidence?

Ok, here's one:


  "..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered
   from outside.  They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, 
   well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined 
   with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and 
   the benches are numbered.  The prisoners are told that they are to 
   be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments.  They must therefore 
   completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
   disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
   clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
   be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
   proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through 
   a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
   shower bath.  In this room are three large pillars, into which
   certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room.
   When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room,
   the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are
   dropped down into the pillars.  As soon as the containers touch 
   the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put
   the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens
   on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then
   the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first
   floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh
   corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed
   for the whole process.)  The job itself is performed by Jewish
   prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
      The results of this `resettlement action' to date: 500,000 Jews
   Current capacity of the `resettlement action' ovens: 10,000
   in twenty-four hours."
                  --from report entitled "Resettlement of Jews"
                    written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch
                    for SS-Col. M. von Herff and RF-SS H. Himmler, after
                    inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.  This
                    excerpt from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by
                    Gerald Fleming, ISBN 0-520-05103-3.


So why would a Nazi military officer (Franke-Gricksh) lie to Himmler,
another high-ranking officer, in a report written without any evidence
of coercion in what appears to just be the regular course of duty?

Oh I know Raven, "forgeries all forgeries".

>3) he is out of touch with recent developments in the historiography of 
>the
>
>Holocaust, meaning he still feels the various statements by Auschwitz
>
>Commandant Rudolf Hoess are valid.

Oh what historiography is that? You mean Faurisson or others who
fabricate this stuff and then you quote it and each other?

What about Hoess' statements made at Chelmno during the war, not after
his capture?

--------------------
During my visit to Kumhof I also saw the extermination installation,
with the lorry which had been set up for killing by means of motor
exhaust fumes. The head of the Kommando told me that this method,
however, was very unreliable, as the gas build-up was very irregular
and was often insufficient for killing.

        Rudolf Hoss, Commandant of Auschwitz, on a visit to Chelmno
        on 16 September 1942
--------------------

Although not exactly conclusive it certainly does back up many others'
claims and certainly does not seem to bode very well for your claim
that the Nazis never had any plan to mass gas people.

I know, you will take this one piece and try to tear it up in a vacuum
leaving out everything else it supports.

>5) he is unaware of the details of an execution using HCN gas, and
>
>furthermore does not appreciate the difference between Zyklon B and HCN
>
>gas.

Do enlighten us, as if this is relevant. What could your point be?
That Zyklon B is a crystalline substance which only *releases* HCN gas
on contact with an acid (i.e. its standard usage)? Gosh, what a
distinction!

You leave this statement hanging for a reason, as usual. Because if
you fleshed it out (and there was no reason not to) you would look
silly.

But you think you are very clever and perhaps can lead a reader into
thinking you have something devastating up your sleeve.

You have nothing up your sleeve, you just think you are being clever,
Goebbels reincarnate here...hah.

>For him, faulty testimony about 
>Soviet
>
>POW being gassed is proof that the Nazis had a plan to exterminate Jews in
>
>gas chambers. He simply does not see there is no connection.

But this is not the only evidence, you just pick and choose bits and
pieces and write things like this.

Besides, you admit that the Nazi govt gassed Soviet POWs?

Well, that goes a long way I would think in most people's minds, taken
with other proof of other events you elide. It shows:

	A) The Nazi govt flagrantly violated the Geneva Convention's
	agreements regarding treatment of POW soldiers in wartime.

	B) The Nazi govt indeed used gassing as an extermination
	method.

But of course your "trick" is to take one drop of rain and say it is
not raining, this is only a tiny bit of water, how can you say it is
raining?

Gack, how stupid do you think people are?

>Broszat goes on to say
>
>that there were no gas chambers in "the Old Reich" (the pre-war borders of
>
>Germany.

Broszat can say what he wants but that's begging the question isn't
it?

Since the vast majority of the mass exterminations occurred outside of
the "the Old Reich", specifically in Poland, Auschwitz etc.

But you just leave that statement of yours hanging in the air hoping
to lead a reader to believe that what Broszat said was that there were
no gas chambers.

Stupid attempt at a trick if you ask me Raven.

Well, at least now everyone here knows what you are up to.

Just silly word games, and a malicious and malevolent attempt by you
to mislead people.

The sick thing is you know (and we know you know) damn well that the
holocaust occurred much as is generally believed.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Reply to Keren's "rebuttal"
References: <2qpljm$gpc@kaiwan.kaiwan.com> 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994May12.154833.17702@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 12 May 94 15:48:33 GMT

In article  bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

>From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>>1) there is no single piece of evidence that shows a Nazi plan to
>>exterminate Jews in gas chambers.

>>For him, faulty testimony about 
>>Soviet
>>POW being gassed is proof that the Nazis had a plan to exterminate Jews in
>>gas chambers. He simply does not see there is no connection.

>But this is not the only evidence, you just pick and choose bits and
>pieces and write things like this.

>Besides, you admit that the Nazi govt gassed Soviet POWs?

Note that he neglected to demonstrate that the information about the
experimental gassing of Soviet POW's was 'faulty,' but simply claimed that
with no supporting evidence, perhaps in the hope everyone would accept his
assertion as valid. Interesting technique.

>>Broszat goes on to say
>>that there were no gas chambers in "the Old Reich" (the pre-war borders of
>>Germany.

>Broszat can say what he wants but that's begging the question isn't
>it?

I doubt Broszat said anything of the sort - perhaps someone in Germany can
provide the precise citation for us? 


-- 
   /^\__/^\                 The Old Frog's Almanac 
  / @    @ \      Home to the Holocaust & Fascism Archives
 (          )      Port Alberni, British Columbia, Canada
  \  ~~~~  /               
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Article: 11869 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Reply to Keren's "rebuttal"
Date: 11 May 1994 04:06:14 GMT
Organization: KAIWAN Internet (310/527-4279,818/756-0180,714/741-2920)
Lines: 147
Message-ID: <2qpljm$gpc@kaiwan.kaiwan.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
X-Newsreader: Internet News version 1.0

In Message-ID: <2pk1dd$2e2@netnews.alf.dec.com>, Danny Keren tries to

respond to my critique of his initial attempt to provide the best one or

two pieces of evidence that prove there was a Nazi plan to exterminate 
Jews

in gas chambers. Instead of the devastating rebuttal Keren seems to think

he has delivered, he has actually admitted:



1) there is no single piece of evidence that shows a Nazi plan to

exterminate Jews in gas chambers.



2) each of his "component" pieces of "evidence" must be supported by other

pieces, which are themselves similarly in need of support from other

pieces.



3) he is out of touch with recent developments in the historiography of 
the

Holocaust, meaning he still feels the various statements by Auschwitz

Commandant Rudolf Hoess are valid.



4) he has provided no proof of gassings at the so-called main gas chambers

at Birkenau.



5) he is unaware of the details of an execution using HCN gas, and

furthermore does not appreciate the difference between Zyklon B and HCN

gas.



6) he has not read the Kremer diary he alludes to in one of his 
adminicles.



It is also obvious that Keren cannot respond to me on this topic without

stooping to personal attacks.



More to the point, however, even though Keren repeats my challenge, he

clearly has failed to understand it. For him, faulty testimony about 
Soviet

POW being gassed is proof that the Nazis had a plan to exterminate Jews in

gas chambers. He simply does not see there is no connection.



Perhaps Keren realizes at some level he has utterly failed to provide a

substantive response to my challenge, as he now is attempting to divert 
the

discussion away from the Auschwitz/Birkenau camp, where he himself chose 
to

start, by now claiming that there is "evidence" of gassings at camps where

it is now widely acknowledged that there were no gas chambers. To do this,

he attempts to lean on an alleged statement from the Institute for

Contemporary History in Germany, without mentioning that as long ago as

August 19, 1960, the director of that Institute, Dr. Martin Broszat,

acknowledged in Die Zeit that "Neither in Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor

in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners gassed." Broszat goes on to say

that there were no gas chambers in "the Old Reich" (the pre-war borders of

Germany.



It is also interesting that Keren would start out claiming that the best

evidence comes from camps liberated by the Soviets, which no Western 
allies

visited to verify Communist claims against the Fascists (Nazis), and then

in effect change positions and claim that there is evidence that gassings

occured in camps liberated by Western allies, camps about which we know a

great deal more than we do the Eastern, Soviet-liberated camps.



If Keren wishes to shift the focus from one camp to another, that is fine

with me. All he has to do is select a camp on which to focus, and provide

one or two pieces of evidence that support his position that Nazis planned

to exterminate Jews in gas chambers.



Keren is correct, by the way, in stating that I am trying to narrow the

discussion. The reason I am trying to narrow it is because I would like us

all to be talking about the same thing. It is impossible to accomplish

anything if we skip from camp to camp, and from document to document

whenever the mood strikes us. If the Holocaust is, as Keren (and Michael

Berenbaum of the U.S.H.M.M.) claims, one of the best documented events in

Western history, then it should be a trivial matter to choose a document

that supports Keren's position, so that we may discuss it.


Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
For free information from the IHR, E-mail me your mailing address, or 
contact me
at: PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659. You will not be put on a mailing 
list.


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Article: 11870 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Reply to Keren's "rebuttal"
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of 11 May 1994 04:06:14 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <2qpljm$gpc@kaiwan.kaiwan.com>
Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 07:06:30 GMT
Lines: 213


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>1) there is no single piece of evidence that shows a Nazi plan to
>
>exterminate Jews in gas chambers.

His point was that there is no *single* piece of evidence that shows
that Word War II occurred, as an analogy.

Your emphasis was on the best one or two single pieces of evidence,
which was rejected as a criteria.

Now you are playing stupid and transparent word games implying there
exists no single piece of evidence (as in none.)

You must play this game with children too much.

It's also relevant that you reject all eyewitness testimony a priori,
including eyewitness testimony without any particular motivation to
lie (e.g. memorandum written between Nazi officers in the course of
their duties describing the gassing.)

What's the point?

Given your silly game-playing who cares what you believe? You will
obviously believe what you want to believe anyhow, no one owes you or
your few friends any explanation.

Rational people have long ago been convinced by the overwhelming bulk
of evidence. It's all available to anyone here.

The only people here who have claimed to doubt this also managed to
describe themselves as neo-nazis or similar in the same context and
most didn't really care what was true or not it just plays into their
anti-semitic political goals. At least they are honest.

You however still seem to believe you can pull one over on everyone
with silly word games.


>2) each of his "component" pieces of "evidence" must be supported by other
>
>pieces, which are themselves similarly in need of support from other
>
>pieces.

So what?

Given the existence of a gas chamber you have to show that it was used
on someone. Given that it was used on someone you have to show that
they died from this use. Given that they died from this use in order
to show a systematic plan to murder millions of civilians you have to
show that it was used over and over. etc.

Now you want one single piece of evidence that stands alone supporting
what is by definition a long and repeated process only of significance
due to the sum of the evidence?

Ok, here's one:


  "..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered
   from outside.  They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, 
   well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined 
   with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and 
   the benches are numbered.  The prisoners are told that they are to 
   be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments.  They must therefore 
   completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
   disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
   clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
   be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
   proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through 
   a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
   shower bath.  In this room are three large pillars, into which
   certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room.
   When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room,
   the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are
   dropped down into the pillars.  As soon as the containers touch 
   the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put
   the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens
   on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then
   the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first
   floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh
   corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed
   for the whole process.)  The job itself is performed by Jewish
   prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
      The results of this `resettlement action' to date: 500,000 Jews
   Current capacity of the `resettlement action' ovens: 10,000
   in twenty-four hours."
                  --from report entitled "Resettlement of Jews"
                    written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch
                    for SS-Col. M. von Herff and RF-SS H. Himmler, after
                    inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.  This
                    excerpt from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by
                    Gerald Fleming, ISBN 0-520-05103-3.


So why would a Nazi military officer (Franke-Gricksh) lie to Himmler,
another high-ranking officer, in a report written without any evidence
of coercion in what appears to just be the regular course of duty?

Oh I know Raven, "forgeries all forgeries".

>3) he is out of touch with recent developments in the historiography of 
>the
>
>Holocaust, meaning he still feels the various statements by Auschwitz
>
>Commandant Rudolf Hoess are valid.

Oh what historiography is that? You mean Faurisson or others who
fabricate this stuff and then you quote it and each other?

What about Hoess' statements made at Chelmno during the war, not after
his capture?

--------------------
During my visit to Kumhof I also saw the extermination installation,
with the lorry which had been set up for killing by means of motor
exhaust fumes. The head of the Kommando told me that this method,
however, was very unreliable, as the gas build-up was very irregular
and was often insufficient for killing.

        Rudolf Hoss, Commandant of Auschwitz, on a visit to Chelmno
        on 16 September 1942
--------------------

Although not exactly conclusive it certainly does back up many others'
claims and certainly does not seem to bode very well for your claim
that the Nazis never had any plan to mass gas people.

I know, you will take this one piece and try to tear it up in a vacuum
leaving out everything else it supports.

>5) he is unaware of the details of an execution using HCN gas, and
>
>furthermore does not appreciate the difference between Zyklon B and HCN
>
>gas.

Do enlighten us, as if this is relevant. What could your point be?
That Zyklon B is a crystalline substance which only *releases* HCN gas
on contact with an acid (i.e. its standard usage)? Gosh, what a
distinction!

You leave this statement hanging for a reason, as usual. Because if
you fleshed it out (and there was no reason not to) you would look
silly.

But you think you are very clever and perhaps can lead a reader into
thinking you have something devastating up your sleeve.

You have nothing up your sleeve, you just think you are being clever,
Goebbels reincarnate here...hah.

>For him, faulty testimony about 
>Soviet
>
>POW being gassed is proof that the Nazis had a plan to exterminate Jews in
>
>gas chambers. He simply does not see there is no connection.

But this is not the only evidence, you just pick and choose bits and
pieces and write things like this.

Besides, you admit that the Nazi govt gassed Soviet POWs?

Well, that goes a long way I would think in most people's minds, taken
with other proof of other events you elide. It shows:

	A) The Nazi govt flagrantly violated the Geneva Convention's
	agreements regarding treatment of POW soldiers in wartime.

	B) The Nazi govt indeed used gassing as an extermination
	method.

But of course your "trick" is to take one drop of rain and say it is
not raining, this is only a tiny bit of water, how can you say it is
raining?

Gack, how stupid do you think people are?

>Broszat goes on to say
>
>that there were no gas chambers in "the Old Reich" (the pre-war borders of
>
>Germany.

Broszat can say what he wants but that's begging the question isn't
it?

Since the vast majority of the mass exterminations occurred outside of
the "the Old Reich", specifically in Poland, Auschwitz etc.

But you just leave that statement of yours hanging in the air hoping
to lead a reader to believe that what Broszat said was that there were
no gas chambers.

Stupid attempt at a trick if you ask me Raven.

Well, at least now everyone here knows what you are up to.

Just silly word games, and a malicious and malevolent attempt by you
to mislead people.

The sick thing is you know (and we know you know) damn well that the
holocaust occurred much as is generally believed.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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Article: 11872 of alt.revisionism
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From: flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Reply to Keren's "rebuttal"
Date: 11 May 1994 06:56:57 GMT
Organization: Update, Uppsala Student Computer Club, Uppsala, Sweden
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In-reply-to: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of 11 May 1994 04:06:14 GMT


[Greg Raven raves on]

And to the rest of us, it is painfully clear that you fail the Turing
test on simple texts. It is _so_ enlightening for the rest of the
world, and maybe especially us Europeans who live in the remnants of
the war, to see how unable some of those who call themselves
revisionists are to cope with reality. 
I do think that you cincerely believe the net to be a forum where you
can spread your agenda, but so far it turns out the opposite way.

Since you fail to look at the bulk of testimonies but instead ask for
"one or two" pieces of evidence it is fairly obvious that you are
_not_ interested in the bulk, but look for the contradictions. That
would be  fine if human beings are infallable and perfect beings. Most
people I know do not claim to be, but since you base your thesis on
that assumption, I take it that you believe they are? Or, at least
that you are? I do hope you realize that to the rest of us who live
with the knowledge that we are not perfect you come across as a little
out of this world? 
--
Safe PGP key fingerprint =  A7 FA 4D 35 73 0E DB 65  69 D5 D4 E1 02 E6 91 E2 
Unix PGP key fingerprint =  0D 22 64 4D 05 35 53 BA  83 56 7B 56 C6 61 D4 A7 
DNA sequence fingerprint =  0E 21 45 FA 7A 11 34 FE  ED DE AD BE EF 8F 10 71
DNA copyright 1962 - 1994 by Jonas Flygare, Copyright yours before IBM does.


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Article: 11869 of alt.revisionism
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Reply to Keren's "rebuttal"
Date: 11 May 1994 04:06:14 GMT
Organization: KAIWAN Internet (310/527-4279,818/756-0180,714/741-2920)
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X-Newsreader: Internet News version 1.0

In Message-ID: <2pk1dd$2e2@netnews.alf.dec.com>, Danny Keren tries to

respond to my critique of his initial attempt to provide the best one or

two pieces of evidence that prove there was a Nazi plan to exterminate 
Jews

in gas chambers. Instead of the devastating rebuttal Keren seems to think

he has delivered, he has actually admitted:



1) there is no single piece of evidence that shows a Nazi plan to

exterminate Jews in gas chambers.



2) each of his "component" pieces of "evidence" must be supported by other

pieces, which are themselves similarly in need of support from other

pieces.



3) he is out of touch with recent developments in the historiography of 
the

Holocaust, meaning he still feels the various statements by Auschwitz

Commandant Rudolf Hoess are valid.



4) he has provided no proof of gassings at the so-called main gas chambers

at Birkenau.



5) he is unaware of the details of an execution using HCN gas, and

furthermore does not appreciate the difference between Zyklon B and HCN

gas.



6) he has not read the Kremer diary he alludes to in one of his 
adminicles.



It is also obvious that Keren cannot respond to me on this topic without

stooping to personal attacks.



More to the point, however, even though Keren repeats my challenge, he

clearly has failed to understand it. For him, faulty testimony about 
Soviet

POW being gassed is proof that the Nazis had a plan to exterminate Jews in

gas chambers. He simply does not see there is no connection.



Perhaps Keren realizes at some level he has utterly failed to provide a

substantive response to my challenge, as he now is attempting to divert 
the

discussion away from the Auschwitz/Birkenau camp, where he himself chose 
to

start, by now claiming that there is "evidence" of gassings at camps where

it is now widely acknowledged that there were no gas chambers. To do this,

he attempts to lean on an alleged statement from the Institute for

Contemporary History in Germany, without mentioning that as long ago as

August 19, 1960, the director of that Institute, Dr. Martin Broszat,

acknowledged in Die Zeit that "Neither in Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor

in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners gassed." Broszat goes on to say

that there were no gas chambers in "the Old Reich" (the pre-war borders of

Germany.



It is also interesting that Keren would start out claiming that the best

evidence comes from camps liberated by the Soviets, which no Western 
allies

visited to verify Communist claims against the Fascists (Nazis), and then

in effect change positions and claim that there is evidence that gassings

occured in camps liberated by Western allies, camps about which we know a

great deal more than we do the Eastern, Soviet-liberated camps.



If Keren wishes to shift the focus from one camp to another, that is fine

with me. All he has to do is select a camp on which to focus, and provide

one or two pieces of evidence that support his position that Nazis planned

to exterminate Jews in gas chambers.



Keren is correct, by the way, in stating that I am trying to narrow the

discussion. The reason I am trying to narrow it is because I would like us

all to be talking about the same thing. It is impossible to accomplish

anything if we skip from camp to camp, and from document to document

whenever the mood strikes us. If the Holocaust is, as Keren (and Michael

Berenbaum of the U.S.H.M.M.) claims, one of the best documented events in

Western history, then it should be a trivial matter to choose a document

that supports Keren's position, so that we may discuss it.


Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
For free information from the IHR, E-mail me your mailing address, or 
contact me
at: PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659. You will not be put on a mailing 
list.


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Article: 11870 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Reply to Keren's "rebuttal"
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of 11 May 1994 04:06:14 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <2qpljm$gpc@kaiwan.kaiwan.com>
Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 07:06:30 GMT
Lines: 213


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>1) there is no single piece of evidence that shows a Nazi plan to
>
>exterminate Jews in gas chambers.

His point was that there is no *single* piece of evidence that shows
that Word War II occurred, as an analogy.

Your emphasis was on the best one or two single pieces of evidence,
which was rejected as a criteria.

Now you are playing stupid and transparent word games implying there
exists no single piece of evidence (as in none.)

You must play this game with children too much.

It's also relevant that you reject all eyewitness testimony a priori,
including eyewitness testimony without any particular motivation to
lie (e.g. memorandum written between Nazi officers in the course of
their duties describing the gassing.)

What's the point?

Given your silly game-playing who cares what you believe? You will
obviously believe what you want to believe anyhow, no one owes you or
your few friends any explanation.

Rational people have long ago been convinced by the overwhelming bulk
of evidence. It's all available to anyone here.

The only people here who have claimed to doubt this also managed to
describe themselves as neo-nazis or similar in the same context and
most didn't really care what was true or not it just plays into their
anti-semitic political goals. At least they are honest.

You however still seem to believe you can pull one over on everyone
with silly word games.


>2) each of his "component" pieces of "evidence" must be supported by other
>
>pieces, which are themselves similarly in need of support from other
>
>pieces.

So what?

Given the existence of a gas chamber you have to show that it was used
on someone. Given that it was used on someone you have to show that
they died from this use. Given that they died from this use in order
to show a systematic plan to murder millions of civilians you have to
show that it was used over and over. etc.

Now you want one single piece of evidence that stands alone supporting
what is by definition a long and repeated process only of significance
due to the sum of the evidence?

Ok, here's one:


  "..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered
   from outside.  They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, 
   well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined 
   with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and 
   the benches are numbered.  The prisoners are told that they are to 
   be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments.  They must therefore 
   completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
   disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
   clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
   be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
   proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through 
   a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
   shower bath.  In this room are three large pillars, into which
   certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room.
   When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room,
   the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are
   dropped down into the pillars.  As soon as the containers touch 
   the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put
   the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens
   on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then
   the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first
   floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh
   corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed
   for the whole process.)  The job itself is performed by Jewish
   prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
      The results of this `resettlement action' to date: 500,000 Jews
   Current capacity of the `resettlement action' ovens: 10,000
   in twenty-four hours."
                  --from report entitled "Resettlement of Jews"
                    written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch
                    for SS-Col. M. von Herff and RF-SS H. Himmler, after
                    inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.  This
                    excerpt from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by
                    Gerald Fleming, ISBN 0-520-05103-3.


So why would a Nazi military officer (Franke-Gricksh) lie to Himmler,
another high-ranking officer, in a report written without any evidence
of coercion in what appears to just be the regular course of duty?

Oh I know Raven, "forgeries all forgeries".

>3) he is out of touch with recent developments in the historiography of 
>the
>
>Holocaust, meaning he still feels the various statements by Auschwitz
>
>Commandant Rudolf Hoess are valid.

Oh what historiography is that? You mean Faurisson or others who
fabricate this stuff and then you quote it and each other?

What about Hoess' statements made at Chelmno during the war, not after
his capture?

--------------------
During my visit to Kumhof I also saw the extermination installation,
with the lorry which had been set up for killing by means of motor
exhaust fumes. The head of the Kommando told me that this method,
however, was very unreliable, as the gas build-up was very irregular
and was often insufficient for killing.

        Rudolf Hoss, Commandant of Auschwitz, on a visit to Chelmno
        on 16 September 1942
--------------------

Although not exactly conclusive it certainly does back up many others'
claims and certainly does not seem to bode very well for your claim
that the Nazis never had any plan to mass gas people.

I know, you will take this one piece and try to tear it up in a vacuum
leaving out everything else it supports.

>5) he is unaware of the details of an execution using HCN gas, and
>
>furthermore does not appreciate the difference between Zyklon B and HCN
>
>gas.

Do enlighten us, as if this is relevant. What could your point be?
That Zyklon B is a crystalline substance which only *releases* HCN gas
on contact with an acid (i.e. its standard usage)? Gosh, what a
distinction!

You leave this statement hanging for a reason, as usual. Because if
you fleshed it out (and there was no reason not to) you would look
silly.

But you think you are very clever and perhaps can lead a reader into
thinking you have something devastating up your sleeve.

You have nothing up your sleeve, you just think you are being clever,
Goebbels reincarnate here...hah.

>For him, faulty testimony about 
>Soviet
>
>POW being gassed is proof that the Nazis had a plan to exterminate Jews in
>
>gas chambers. He simply does not see there is no connection.

But this is not the only evidence, you just pick and choose bits and
pieces and write things like this.

Besides, you admit that the Nazi govt gassed Soviet POWs?

Well, that goes a long way I would think in most people's minds, taken
with other proof of other events you elide. It shows:

	A) The Nazi govt flagrantly violated the Geneva Convention's
	agreements regarding treatment of POW soldiers in wartime.

	B) The Nazi govt indeed used gassing as an extermination
	method.

But of course your "trick" is to take one drop of rain and say it is
not raining, this is only a tiny bit of water, how can you say it is
raining?

Gack, how stupid do you think people are?

>Broszat goes on to say
>
>that there were no gas chambers in "the Old Reich" (the pre-war borders of
>
>Germany.

Broszat can say what he wants but that's begging the question isn't
it?

Since the vast majority of the mass exterminations occurred outside of
the "the Old Reich", specifically in Poland, Auschwitz etc.

But you just leave that statement of yours hanging in the air hoping
to lead a reader to believe that what Broszat said was that there were
no gas chambers.

Stupid attempt at a trick if you ask me Raven.

Well, at least now everyone here knows what you are up to.

Just silly word games, and a malicious and malevolent attempt by you
to mislead people.

The sick thing is you know (and we know you know) damn well that the
holocaust occurred much as is generally believed.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


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Article: 11872 of alt.revisionism
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From: flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Reply to Keren's "rebuttal"
Date: 11 May 1994 06:56:57 GMT
Organization: Update, Uppsala Student Computer Club, Uppsala, Sweden
Lines: 25
Message-ID: 
References: <2qpljm$gpc@kaiwan.kaiwan.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: krille.update.uu.se
In-reply-to: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of 11 May 1994 04:06:14 GMT


[Greg Raven raves on]

And to the rest of us, it is painfully clear that you fail the Turing
test on simple texts. It is _so_ enlightening for the rest of the
world, and maybe especially us Europeans who live in the remnants of
the war, to see how unable some of those who call themselves
revisionists are to cope with reality. 
I do think that you cincerely believe the net to be a forum where you
can spread your agenda, but so far it turns out the opposite way.

Since you fail to look at the bulk of testimonies but instead ask for
"one or two" pieces of evidence it is fairly obvious that you are
_not_ interested in the bulk, but look for the contradictions. That
would be  fine if human beings are infallable and perfect beings. Most
people I know do not claim to be, but since you base your thesis on
that assumption, I take it that you believe they are? Or, at least
that you are? I do hope you realize that to the rest of us who live
with the knowledge that we are not perfect you come across as a little
out of this world? 
--
Safe PGP key fingerprint =  A7 FA 4D 35 73 0E DB 65  69 D5 D4 E1 02 E6 91 E2 
Unix PGP key fingerprint =  0D 22 64 4D 05 35 53 BA  83 56 7B 56 C6 61 D4 A7 
DNA sequence fingerprint =  0E 21 45 FA 7A 11 34 FE  ED DE AD BE EF 8F 10 71
DNA copyright 1962 - 1994 by Jonas Flygare, Copyright yours before IBM does.

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