NOTE: Many articles posted during January 1995 have been moved to
thread-specific files within this and other archives. See
"raven-on-soap," "reply-to-best-evidence," and "myopia.0195" for
examples. knm

Archive/File: pub/people/r/raven.greg raven.0195
Last-Modified: 1995/06/19

Article 21124 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What a revisionist and HCN/[Hydrogen Cyande]
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 1995 10:24:21 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 47
Message-ID: 
References: <3ek7r3$et5@decaxp.harvard.edu> <3eq55o$l45@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3eqkum$1d1i@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca>
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In article <3eqkum$1d1i@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca>,
jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

> In article <3eq55o$l45@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dbtgthomas@aol.com
(DbtgThomas) says:
> >
> 
> >It is looking more like I might have to manufacture some HCN, or even some
> >ersatz Zyklon-B to get answers.  The model for the dispersion question
> >will be a difficult construct.  The only comparison to gasoline had to do
> >with the questions regarding flammability.
> >
> 
> I have been following this thread with some interest, and it seems to me
a rather 
> extraordinary, even disingenuous, conclusion that you still doubt
whether it would be 
> technically possible to gas a room full of people in 10, 15, or 20
minutes (I forget 
> the original point of contention).  It seems to have been established
that Zyklon B 
> evaporates rapidly at low temperatures and is fatal to mammals in low
concentrations 
> in a short period of time.  What part of the picture is missing?

Zyklon B and HCN are not terms that can be used interchangeably. Zyklon B
is a commercial product that contains HCN. One of the reasons for
packaging HCN in an inert carrier and calling it Zyklon B is to slow the
process of evaporation. Zyklon B was not made to speed death but rather to
1) make it safer to handle, and 2) prolong the time over which pests would
be exposed to the HCN fumes.

Therefore, when people talk about mass homicidal gassings that last only a
few minutes using Zyklon B, they are wrong because 1) the HCN would not
have had time fully to gas off in a few minutes, and 2) the Zyklon B would
be continuing to gas off as the "gas chamber" doors were thrown open for
the workmen to enter ... an extremely dangerous situation.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 21134 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What a revisionist and HCN/[Hydrogen Cyande]
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 1995 15:05:42 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
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Mr. Raven, you've stated previously that there were better gasses for
the Nazis to use than hydrocyanic acid.  I asked you to name one, and
you responded with silence.  Given that you used the plural, I'd think
you were aware of several.  Surely you can name one.

Will you now name one gas that would have been, in your words,
"faster-acting" or otherwise "better" for the Nazis to use?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven

Article 21167 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@lysithea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Keith Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What a revisionist and HCN/[Hydrogen Cyande]
Date: 9 Jan 1995 23:09:18 GMT
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Message-ID: 
>
>Therefore, when people talk about mass homicidal gassings that last only a
>few minutes using Zyklon B, they are wrong because 1) the HCN would not
>have had time fully to gas off in a few minutes, and 2) the Zyklon B would
>be continuing to gas off as the "gas chamber" doors were thrown open for
>the workmen to enter ... an extremely dangerous situation.

Hi!  My name is Greg Raven and I'm restarting an argument that has already
been discussed ad nauseum because I think I can use somebody else's ideas
that help my position although everybody and their dog knows that it is
based on fallacious assumptions.

Get a life, Raven, we've been down this road and the scenery is not very
interesting.

--
Keith Morrison  |   A huge tyrannosaurus ate our lawyer
t08o@unb.ca     |   Well I guess that proves they're really not all bad
                                    - A. Yankovic

Article 21176 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg Raven, how do you reconcile 2.5 million names with "not enough missing"?
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 1995 21:24:08 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 36
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In article <3em7da$nua@riscsm.scripps.edu>, misrael@scripps.edu (Mark
Israel) wrote:

> In article <3av25c$4dp@riscsm.scripps.edu>, misrael@scripps.edu (Mark
Israel) writes:
> > In article , Ross Vicksell posts for
Greg Raven:
> 
> >> When you look at the numbers of Jews missing of all causes, you see that 
> >> there simply are not enough "missing" Jews to support the notion that the 
> >> Nazis were murdering Jews left and right ... 
> >
> > What about the 2.5 million names in the Yad Vashem archive?
> 
>    Greg, you followed up to my post without addressing this question.
> Please address it now.

Why do you assume that just because the Yad Vashem has a list of names,
that all the people named therein were murdered by Nazis (or whatever your
explanation)? We are repeatedly told that the reason there are no Nazi
records for millions of Jews sent to gas chambers is that there were no
records kept. Your reference to this "list" at Yad Vashem seems to imply
that somewhow lists were kept. You must decide which story is accurate,
and then proceed. Were the murders conducted in secret or not? If not,
where are the records? If so, how do you know these people were murdered
by Nazis?

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 21192 of alt.revisionism:
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From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg Raven, how do you reconcile 2.5 million names with "not enough missing"?
Date: 10 Jan 1995 01:59:56 GMT
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In  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com 
(Greg Raven) writes: 

>
>In article <3em7da$nua@riscsm.scripps.edu>, misrael@scripps.edu (Mark
>Israel) wrote:
>
>> In article <3av25c$4dp@riscsm.scripps.edu>, misrael@scripps.edu (Mark
>Israel) writes:
>> > In article , Ross Vicksell posts for
>Greg Raven:
>> 
>> >> When you look at the numbers of Jews missing of all causes, you 
see that 
>> >> there simply are not enough "missing" Jews to support the notion 
that the 
>> >> Nazis were murdering Jews left and right ... 
>> >
>> > What about the 2.5 million names in the Yad Vashem archive?
>> 
>>    Greg, you followed up to my post without addressing this question.
>> Please address it now.
>
>Why do you assume that just because the Yad Vashem has a list of names,
>that all the people named therein were murdered by Nazis (or whatever 
your
>explanation)? We are repeatedly told that the reason there are no Nazi
>records for millions of Jews sent to gas chambers is that there were no
>records kept. Your reference to this "list" at Yad Vashem seems to 
imply
>that somewhow lists were kept. You must decide which story is accurate,
>and then proceed. Were the murders conducted in secret or not? If not,
>where are the records? If so, how do you know these people were 
murdered
>by Nazis?

Sheesh--what a sissy reply, Greg!  

The people were reported missing by their loved ones--are you trying to 
say that their loved ones may possibly have been lying and that those 
people (A) are not dead or (B) never existed int he first place?  

I think you're overworked these days, Greg--you're not keeping all four 
paws on the mouse anymore.
-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert
"Those who do not remember the past will be forced to relive it"
                                   Georges Santanya
I'm also on PRODIGY at GMHV19A@PRODIGY.COM


Article 21204 of alt.revisionism:
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From: uroessl1@news.gwdg.de (Roessler  Ulrich)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust in Revisionist View (was: Re: Reply to 'Best Evidence'
Date: 9 Jan 1995 22:45:15 +0100
Organization: GWDG, Goettingen
Lines: 76
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References: 
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #6 (NOV)

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

[..]

>                        I do not "deny" the Holocaust. I specifically
>stated that I agree that some Jews suffered horribly during the Second
>World War, some solely because they were Jewish, and that some had died,
>from a variety of causes.

Mr.Raven, as you state these facts with some confidence as
a self-declared scholar, could you please post some documentation 
of these facts?

[...]

My attention was especially caught by this paragraph: 

>                   Apparently, for McCarthy there can be no "Holocaust"
>without gas chambers, which means for him that none of the suffering of
>Jews who were evicted from their homes, shot in the Eastern territories,
>robbed, worked to death in labor camps, or otherwise mistreated is worth
>mentioning: those who did not die in a Nazi gas chamber are beneath his
>consideration. McCarthy is more of a "Holocaust deniar" than virtually all
>the revisionists I know, and I know most of them.

I really wondered how you possibly could know about these facts.

Some examples, case-studies, would be quite welcome.
The paragraph quoted above is rather specific about these sufferings,
"labor camps", "mistreated", "worked to death", "shot" ...,
so I thought you might provide some documentation here, 
as every scholar should be able to, when he states something as 
known fact.

Moreover, it would be necessary to know something about
the reasons which led to these "horrible sufferings", i.e. 
about motivations and policies of the perpetrators, 
and their organization.

And last but not least, I'd like to hear something like an 
estimate of the number of victims of that policy. For a start, 
I wouldn't mind some more or less incomplete sketch of 
this history in "revisionist" view - 
but you should have something at hand at least to justify
your claim of legitimate revisionism.

Naturally, my main concern is your methodology, as I
still can't swallow your assertion that witness-testimonies aren't
evidence. You, so far, failed to discuss this point, e.g. in answer
to Mr.Hoover, who was quite detailed and convincing in his rebuttal 
of your opinion. 
May be, we can create now some basic understanding of 
your historiographic methodology when discussing some uncontested facts.

I know that you are only interested in gas-chambers, or so you said, 
but here again start my problems when you, seemingly, state something
as well-known fact about the Holocaust (for instance, that
many victims were shot, or worked to death) without providing 
sufficient evidence. From my own knowledge, I wonder, how these facts, 
"the horrible sufferings of some Jews", fit in my notion of "revisionist 
scholarship" at large. 
(I'm thinking of Staeglich's description of Auschwitz, e.g.
 You surely know the man, as you know most of them.)

[..]

>-- 
>Greg Raven
>mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
[..]

u.roessler                                         uroessl1@gwdg.de

"Der Bursche ist eine Katastrophe; das ist kein Grund 
 ihn als Charakter und Schicksal nicht interessant zu finden."

Article 21239 of alt.revisionism:
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From: misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg Raven, how do you reconcile 2.5 million names with "not enough missing"?
Date: 10 Jan 1995 07:29:48 GMT
Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, California, USA
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In article , greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
> In article <3av25c$4dp@riscsm.scripps.edu>, misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel) writes:
>> In article , Ross Vicksell posts for Greg Raven:
 
>>> When you look at the numbers of Jews missing of all causes, you 
>>> see that there simply are not enough "missing" Jews to support 
>>> the notion that the Nazis were murdering Jews left and right ... 
>>
>> What about the 2.5 million names in the Yad Vashem archive?
>
> Why do you assume that just because the Yad Vashem has a list of 
> names, that all the people named therein were murdered by Nazis 
> (or whatever your explanation)?

   NO such assumption is necessary to REFUTE what you asserted!

   ALL that is needed is that this is a list of MISSING JEWS (last
heard of in the Third Reich).

   Do you AGREE or DISagree that a list of 2.5 MILLION MISSING JEWS
REFUTES your assertion that "there simply are not enough 'missing'
Jews to support" (whatever)?

   If you disagree, on what grounds?

   PLEASE do NOT bother with the REST of this post until you have
answered the ABOVE!

-------------------------------------------------------------------

   Yes, I believe that these people were murdered by Nazis.
I do not ASSUME it.  I DEDUCE it from the fact that there
is no other plausible explanation for what happened to them.

> We are repeatedly told that the reason there are no Nazi records 
> for millions of Jews sent to gas chambers is that there were no
> records kept.  Your reference to this "list" at Yad Vashem seems 
> to imply that somewhow lists were kept. 

   You place "list" in quotation marks.  Have you never heard of
this list before?  According to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust,
Arthur H. Butz, in the book ADVERTISED in your SIGNATURE, _The
Hoax of the Twentieth Century_, refers to this list and complains
that Yad Vashem has "ONLY" that many names.  Is the Encyclopedia
reference incorrect?

   And NO, Yad Vashem's having a list does NOT imply that the
Nazis kept a list of whom they murdered.  This is a list of
people whom survivors remember, just as my parents remember
their uncles, aunts, and cousins who were deported by the Nazis
and never seen again.

> You must decide which story is accurate,

   I have done so.

> and then proceed. Were the murders conducted in secret

   Yes.

> or not? If not, where are the records? If so, how do you know 
> these people were murdered by Nazis?

   If SOME of my relatives who were deported had survived
and others had not, THEN I might believe that they died
through happenstance (typhus, etc.), or that they had simply
lost contact with us.  But since ALL of my relatives who 
were deported were NEVER heard from again, SYSTEMATIC,
DELIBERATE EXTERMINATION is the ONLY plausible explanation.

--
misrael@scripps.edu			Mark Israel


Article 21244 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: What a revisionist and HCN/[Hydrogen Cyande]
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Mon, 09 Jan 1995 10:24:21 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3ek7r3$et5@decaxp.harvard.edu> <3eq55o$l45@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
	<3eqkum$1d1i@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca>
	
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 08:18:04 GMT
Lines: 86


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>Zyklon B and HCN are not terms that can be used interchangeably. Zyklon B
>is a commercial product that contains HCN. One of the reasons for
>packaging HCN in an inert carrier and calling it Zyklon B is to slow the
>process of evaporation. Zyklon B was not made to speed death but rather to
>1) make it safer to handle, and 2) prolong the time over which pests would
>be exposed to the HCN fumes.

Could you expand on point #2, particularly on why you say the design
of the product is to prolong exposure time. And where your information
is derived from.

>Therefore, when people talk about mass homicidal gassings that last only a
>few minutes using Zyklon B, they are wrong because 1) the HCN would not

Could you please tell us where someome referred to a "few" minutes.

It's interesting how one testimony mentions 15-20 minutes, which of
course could be a bit wrong in the telling (tho it's hard to believe
it was *so* wrong that in fact no one was being killed at all), now
Raven turns it into "a few minutes" for further rhetorical effect,
etc.

Not to mention that Raven doesn't believe any testimonies anyhow, flat
out. But apparently this one he believes to be absolutely accurate to
the minute, or something like that. But, you see, according to him
none of it ever happened...talk about shadow boxing.

>have had time fully to gas off in a few minutes, and 2) the Zyklon B would
>be continuing to gas off as the "gas chamber" doors were thrown open for
>the workmen to enter ... an extremely dangerous situation.

"Workmen"?!

Raven slyly tries to mislead again.

He is of course referring to the *prisoners*, also sentenced to death,
who wore gas masks etc. and removed the bodies ("Sonderkommando").

Now, why did they wear gas masks? Maybe because of the reasons Raven
cites, it was dangerous?

To listen to Raven one wonders how Degesch made a living selling
Zyklon-B at all...

--------------------

Testimony of Szlama Dragon...10 May 1945, court in Cracow:

...Then Moll opened the door of the gas chamber; we put on our masks
and dragged the corpses form the different gas chambers through the
corridor into the undressing room, then from there through the
neioghboring corrider to the crematory ovens. In the first corridor,
near the entrance door, the barbers shaved the heads, and, in the
second, dentists pulled out the teeth.

Judgement rendered against SS-Hauptscharfuhrer Martin Roth, court at
Hagen in Westphalia (Roth was at Mauthausen):

...Barely fifteen minutes after the gas had began streaming into the
room, the accused, Roth, saw through the peephole in one of the two
doors that none of the victims was still moving, and he turned on the
fan...that sucked up the gas into a chimney and expelled it outside...
After checking -- by means of colored paper prepared for the purpose--
that there was no more gas inside, Roth then opened both doors of the
gas chamber and ordered the prisoners under his command to carry the
corpses to the crematorium morgue...

	[note: ellipsis other than first were in the text quoted -bzs]


		From: "Nazi Mass Murder -- A documentary
		history of the use of poison gas", Eugen
		Kogon, Hermann Langbein and Adalbert Ruckerl,
		ed., Yale University Press, 1993, pp 109

--------------------

Of course, Raven knows what happened better than anyone who was there!

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD

Article 21250 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Greg Raven, how do you reconcile 2.5 million names with "not enough missing"?
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Sun, 08 Jan 1995 21:24:08 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3em7da$nua@riscsm.scripps.edu>
	
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 05:49:12 GMT
Lines: 98


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>We are repeatedly told that the reason there are no Nazi
>records for millions of Jews sent to gas chambers is that there were no
>records kept.

I realize this was carefully worded around the facts, but let's try a
bit of expansion.

Entrance records to Auschwitz do exist. I have seen them with my own
eyes, to the extent I can verify they're authentic as claimed. I
realize anything that doesn't agree with your strange beliefs is de
facto forged, but that's besides the point.

Where are those people? What happened to them?

Now, if you want to narrow your claim to: They're dead, they were
killed or allowed to die (ie, starvation, exposure, etc) in the camps
but they weren't gassed that's one thing. But if that's your point say
so.

But many records of their whereabouts and entrance to the camp(s) do
exist, and then by and large they disappear from the face of the
earth.

What happened to them?

And why is it so hard to believe their precise deaths weren't
recorded, or those records were destroyed?

Actually, that makes Nazis out to be a little less monsters, at least
we get a glimmer that these SS officers knew what they were doing was
wrong. It's a small ray of light, but it might just be one, I feel
just a tiny bit better believing these people knew this was wrong and
selfish to the extreme and deserving of punishment so they covered up
what they were doing.

>Were the murders conducted in secret or not?

Apparently they've managed to keep it a secret from you.

>If not,
>where are the records?

If they ever existed, mostly destroyed. What are you looking for,
exactly? What do you expect would have existed? Certainly diaries and
memos documenting what went on exist, written by officers and others
at the time.

>If so, how do you know these people were murdered
>by Nazis?

If not, then where are these people?

Millions of people didn't just disappear without any explanation.

Or do you claim they never existed? Or they lived? Or what?

Where's my grandmother's sister? Where is her family, her three sons
for example? Where are all these people?

You fellows used to claim they're all in the Soviet Union (or enough
of them to nullify the basic story, millions of them, obviously some
would have died no matter what happened.)

And you would back that up with dark hints that the evil Soviet Empire
of course is impossible to communicate from. You figured the cold war
served you well.

And then the Soviet Union fell, in the midst of our conversation on
Usenet, it collapsed. People could travel or communicate etc pretty
much at will.

So why weren't there at least hundreds of thousands of tearful
reunions? (Oh I know, you know of *one*, maybe two, wow, where are the
other millions? hundreds of thousands? tens of thousands???)

Or did it happen and it completely escaped everyone's attention?

Entire former towns should have appeared. People no doubt returning to
those towns, to their homelands they'd lived in for many
generations. To their churches and synagogues and where their dead are
buried. You would think even just for a visit, even to lay some
flowers on a parent's grave or whatever. There should have been lines
hundreds of miles long trying to enter Poland and Hungary and other
countries. Half a million disappeared within Germany proper alone.

Where are all these people?

Where the hell are they?

Are you nuts, or what?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD

Article 21266 of alt.revisionism:
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From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What a revisionist and HCN/[Hydrogen Cyande]
Date: 10 Jan 1995 20:37:10 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 31
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3eur5m$4hg@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <3ek7r3$et5@decaxp.harvard.edu> <3eq55o$l45@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3eqkum$1d1i@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk4-19.ix.netcom.com

In  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com 
(Greg Raven) writes: 

>Therefore, when people talk about mass homicidal gassings that last 
only a
>few minutes using Zyklon B, they are wrong because 1) the HCN would not
>have had time fully to gas off in a few minutes, and 2) the Zyklon B 
would
>be continuing to gas off as the "gas chamber" doors were thrown open 
for
>the workmen to enter ... an extremely dangerous situation.
>
>-
What an example of baloney sliced thin with a dull knife, Greg!  Love 
the straw man, too:  "When people talk about mass homicidal gassings 
that last only a few minutes".  Who are these "People"?  I don't know of 
any infomred historians who make such claims--do you?

As far as "gassing off" is concerned, I know YOU know that exhaust fans 
were employed beofre workers entered the chambers (wearing gas masks 
according to Sonderkommandos who were there)--not to mention the straw 
man problem described above.

Oh, man--why do we bother with you?  You obviously are more interested 
in keeping your job than disseminating the truth....
-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert
"Those who do not remember the past will be forced to relive it"
                                   Georges Santanya
I'm also on PRODIGY at GMHV19A@PRODIGY.COM


Article 21269 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What a revisionist and HCN/[Hydrogen Cyande]
Date: 10 Jan 1995 21:33:08 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <3euuek$b3l@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <3ek7r3$et5@decaxp.harvard.edu> <3eq55o$l45@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3eqkum$1d1i@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Greg Raven  wrote:

# Therefore, when people talk about mass homicidal gassings that 
# last only a few minutes using Zyklon B, they are wrong because 
# 1) the HCN would not have had time fully to gas off in a few 
# minutes, 

False.

As noted here numerous times, the concentration used in the 
homicidal gas chambers was about the same as that used for
delousing, that is, far higher than the concentration which
is lethal for humans. Only a small portion of the HCN had to 
evaporate in order to kill the people inside the gas chambers. 
15-20 minutes or so were enough.

# and 2) the Zyklon B would
# be continuing to gas off as the "gas chamber" doors were thrown 
# open for the workmen to enter ... an extremely dangerous situation.

False, for a few reasons:

a) In the gas chambers of Kremas II and III, the Zyklon-B wasn't
   just thrown on the floor, but into wiremesh introduction devices.
   After the victims died, it was taken out. So, there was no
   problem in these gas chambers (in which the majority of the
   victims were killed).

b) Using gas masks protected the "sonderkommando" from the remains
   of the gas, just like it protected the people who used the
   Zyklon-B in the delousing chambers. Very simple. 

c) It is true that the "sonderkommando" were "employed" in conditions
   which could be described as unsafe. However, this was no
   problem for the Nazis - the "sonderkommando" were prisoners.


-Danny Keren.


Article 21290 of alt.revisionism:
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From: landpost@clark.net
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg Raven, how do you reconcile 2.5 million names with "not enough missing"?
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 20:11:49 -0500
Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: 
References: <3em7da$nua@riscsm.scripps.edu>  <3etd1c$mbg@riscsm.scripps.edu>
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In article <3etd1c$mbg@riscsm.scripps.edu>, misrael@scripps.edu (Mark
Israel) wrote:


> misrael@scripps.edu                     Mark Israel

-------

Why are you so quick and bold to bring-up this list down there in ole'
Izzyrawl when we already know exactly how many people, not just Joos, who
died at the German industrial complex Auschwitz?? The Auschwitz death
books, captured by the Red Army from the Germans at Auschwitz and held in
their completeness in Moscow for about 50 years now, are as detailed as
you will ever need. There were only 74,000 deaths at Auschwitz in the
period of its existence. 

Greg Raven posted here earlier a news article about their existence and
the inspection by the Red Cross. 

Tim McCarthy
landpost@clark.net


Article 21300 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg Raven, how do you reconcile 2.5 million names with "not enough missing"?
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 07:11:13 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 60
Message-ID: 
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   <3etd1c$mbg@riscsm.scripps.edu>
   
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landpost@clark.net wrote:

> Why are you so quick and bold to bring-up this list down there in ole'
> Izzyrawl when we already know exactly how many people, not just Joos, who
> died at the German industrial complex Auschwitz??

Oh nonsense -- ancient denier crap.  Don't you guys have anything new?

> The Auschwitz death
> books, captured by the Red Army from the Germans at Auschwitz and held in
> their completeness in Moscow for about 50 years now, are as detailed as
> you will ever need. There were only 74,000 deaths at Auschwitz in the
> period of its existence.

The books do not include the selections that were performed immediately
upon arrival (among other things) -- the train arrives, the Jews get off,
half of them are immediately exterminated without any record, the rest
get tattooed and shown to their barracks.

> Greg Raven posted here earlier a news article about their existence and
> the inspection by the Red Cross. 

Are you sure you aren't thinking of his promulgation of the infamous
IRC-300,000 claim?

Greg Raven's "Holocaust calendar"'s entry for September 26th says that
"at one time the International Red Cross said that about 300,000 Jews
died during WWII from all causes."

As my Web page says on the matter:

   Sometimes the lies are more blatant than others. This one's pretty
   blatant. The IRC never said any such thing. In fact, since
   revisionists came up with that lie in the early 70s, the IRC has
   been explicitly denying that it ever said it. In 1975, they stated
   that the low figures "are based upon statistics falsely attributed
   to us, evidently for the purpose of giving them credibility,
   despite the fact that we never publish information of this kind."
   
   Mr. Raven's response when this was pointed out?  Silence.
   
   Is he still promulgating this lie? He was as of November 29, 1994,
   but you can see for yourself.  Here's the link to his Holocaust
   calendar page;  it's the entry for September 26, 1988.

If your news software recognizes Web links, here are links to
Greg Raven's claim and my refutation thereof, respectively:


Holocaust calendar



Is Greg Raven trustworthy?

-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


Article 21308 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg Raven, how do you reconcile 2.5 million names with "not enough missing"?
Date: 11 Jan 1995 15:59:57 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <3f0v9t$8o8@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <3em7da$nua@riscsm.scripps.edu>  <3etd1c$mbg@riscsm.scripps.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

 wrote:

# Why are you so quick and bold to bring-up this list down there in ole'
# Izzyrawl when we already know exactly how many people, not just Joos, who
# died at the German industrial complex Auschwitz?? The Auschwitz death
# books, captured by the Red Army from the Germans at Auschwitz and held in
# their completeness in Moscow for about 50 years now, are as detailed as
# you will ever need. There were only 74,000 deaths at Auschwitz in the
# period of its existence. 

This is obviously absurd; if you do a little calculation, you
immediately see that there would have been no need for five huge
crematoriums in Auschwitz in order to dispose of 74,000 corpses
in 5 years. One small crematorium would be enough.

It's really simple: 74,000/(5*365) = 40 deaths per day, on the
average. One small crematorium would have been enough to dispose
of this number of corpses (say, 3 cremation furnaces).

But, as the Holocaust deniers admit, the camp had five crematoriums
with 52 cremation furnaces.

The 74,000 figure covers only a portion of the time in which the
death camp operated. But, more importantly, it lists only people
who were admitted to the camp and listed. No one bothered to list
the majority of the deportees, who were gassed upon arrival after
being found "unfit for work" (as described very clearly in the
Franke-Gricksch report, for instance).


-Danny Keren.




Article 21311 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Greg Raven, how do you reconcile 2.5 million names with "not enough missing"?
References:  <3etd1c$mbg@riscsm.scripps.edu> 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1995Jan14.134237.1011@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 95 13:42:37 GMT

In article  landpost@clark.net writes:

>Why are you so quick and bold to bring-up this list down there in ole'
>Izzyrawl when we already know exactly how many people, not just Joos, who
>died at the German industrial complex Auschwitz?? The Auschwitz death
>books, captured by the Red Army from the Germans at Auschwitz and held in
>their completeness in Moscow for about 50 years now, are as detailed as
>you will ever need. There were only 74,000 deaths at Auschwitz in the
>period of its existence. 

Sorry, next contestant! The SS did not keep records of those who
were immediately gassed. Only those deemed "fit for work" were
registered and tattooed. The "death books" you refer to only cite
specific _months_, and their data only applies to those registered
for work.

I'll spend some time dealing with Red Cross visits later - for now,
send in the next contestant...
-- 
          The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
   (For full file listing, send INDEX to listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca)
                     kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca
             Vancouver Island, British Columbia, CANADA


Article 21313 of alt.revisionism:
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From: misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg Raven, how do you reconcile 2.5 million names with "not enough missing"?
Date: 11 Jan 1995 20:29:20 GMT
Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, California, USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <3f1f30$dhb@riscsm.scripps.edu>
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In article , landpost@clark.net (Tim McCarthy) writes:

> Why are you so quick and bold to bring-up this list down there in ole'
> Izzyrawl

   Because GREG RAVEN said that "there simply are NOT ENOUGH MISSING JEWS"!

> when we already know exactly how many people, not just Joos, who
> died at the German industrial complex Auschwitz?? The Auschwitz death
> books, captured by the Red Army from the Germans at Auschwitz and held in
> their completeness in Moscow for about 50 years now, are as detailed as
> you will ever need. There were only 74,000 deaths at Auschwitz in the
> period of its existence. 
>
> Greg Raven posted here earlier a news article about their existence and
> the inspection by the Red Cross. 

   Interesting!  I missed the post in question.

   I do not trust Revisionists, however.  Could you please tell me:  
(1) Was this "news article" from mainstream media, and if so, what is
the citation?  (2) Why do you believe that these death records are 
"complete"?  (3) How do they refute anything that I said?

--
misrael@scripps.edu			Mark Israel


Article 21408 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg's motivation (was Re: Old Nonsense Again, etc)
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 23:14:38 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 59
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <3end9v$9n3@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <3eqlv8$o6q@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3esqas$kqd@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article <3esqas$kqd@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie
Alpert) wrote:

> In <3eqlv8$o6q@newsbf02.news.aol.com> hmazal@aol.com (HMazal) writes: 
> >
> >>I, for one< am pretty tired of Greg Raven using this Newsgroup as a 
> >>dumping ground for his regurgitated leftovers from the JHR.
> >
> >Gee, you are interfering with Mr. Raven's economics! He lives by 
> selling
> >books to dupes. Haven't you noticed how every single one of his 
> postings
> >includes advertisements for IHR books and IHR magazines. Surprisingly 
> we>have not yet seen 'T' shirts, coffee mugs or tea-cozy's for sale! He
> >claims to be doing all of this in the interest of "Truth" but I believe 
> it>is done in the interest of "Money!"
> >
> The nail has been hit squarely on the head, Harry.  The IHR pays Greg a 
> salary to disseminate propoganda via the most cost effective 
> means...which is USENET right now.  He's been on Genie (and gotten his 
> butt royally whipped by a woman named Pooh.Bah) and Pat Larson and Joe 
> Bishop have been on Prodigy where they were laughed out of town (they 
> are a rowdy bunch over there).  One poor guy named Mark was recruited by 
> Joe Bishop on Prodigy to be the IHR undercover spokesman a couple of 
> years ago.  I have a copy of a very nice apology he posted to the 
> members saying he had been duped by the IHR.  He realized this after he 
> spent some time investigating their claims while trying to defend them. 
> Joe Bishop (Rungu) would have better conscripting a less intellegent 
> person, I guess.  But that's the problem Faurrison ran across with 
> Pressac.

This post contains an incredible amount of misinformation. The IHR does
not pay me one red cent for my time on the Internet, nor for my Internet
account. This is my own, private, spare-time project.

On GEnie, I was the one who whipped Pooh Bah's butt, to use your colorful
language. She finally had to resort to using fake documents, such as the
Franke-Gricksch "report," and when painted into a corner on this matter,
claimed to have seen the original! We all know, of course, that there is
no original.

The IHR never duped anyone by the name of Mark. If he had an arrangement
with Joe Bishop, that is their business. Joe Bishop does not work for the
IHR and never has.

As for Faurisson vs. Pressac, anyone who is paying attention knows that it
is Pressac who is changing his story, not Faurisson. But if you wish to
stick to Pressac, please feel free. Come talk to me a couple years from
now and we'll see just what your Mr. Pressac is saying then.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 21416 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Twelve posts with questions for Greg Raven
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 07:08:07 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 158
Message-ID: 
References: <3evipp$n4p@riscsm.scripps.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article <3evipp$n4p@riscsm.scripps.edu>, misrael@scripps.edu (Mark
Israel) wrote:

> #1
> From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
> Message-ID: <3eqtln$acl@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
> 
> How can one "quibble" with "about 60 percent of them will have to be 
> liquidated"?

Who is quibbling? Not I.

> #2
> From: pankiewicz@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl (Jerzy Pankiewicz)
> Message-ID: <3equn6$nrc@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl>
> 
> Is this your real problem 6.0 vs. 5.1 milion? Or maybe even 4.6 milion.
> Does it make Nazis more human?

If there is no difference, then why not tell the true number, instead of
running the total up in endless attempts to demonize the Nazis?

> #3
> From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
> Message-ID: 
> 
> Mr. Raven, you've stated previously that there were better gasses for
> the Nazis to use than hydrocyanic acid.  I asked you to name one, and
> you responded with silence.  Given that you used the plural, I'd think
> you were aware of several.  Surely you can name one.
> 
> Will you now name one gas that would have been, in your words,
> "faster-acting" or otherwise "better" for the Nazis to use?

I don't remember the quote, but what I meant to say was that there are
faster acting poisons than Zyklon B. HCN is reasonably fast, but its
activation is slowed considerably by the inert carrier. Carbon monoxide
would be faster than Zyklon B, for example, as would any of numerous nerve
gasses.

> #4
> From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
> Message-ID: <3espms$kl9@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
> 
> The people were reported missing by their loved ones--are you trying to 
> say that their loved ones may possibly have been lying and that those 
> people (A) are not dead or (B) never existed int he first place?  

There are numerous cases where people thought dead were actually living
somewhere else. However, it is possible that some people are lying about
the numbers of relatives they lost. Whether people are lying or wrong is
beside the point, however. The point is, where are these fantastic
chemical slaughterhouses -- the Nazi gas chambers?

> #5
> From: uroessl1@news.gwdg.de (Roessler Ulrich)
> Message-ID: <3esapb$h63@gwdu19.gwdg.de>
> 
> Mr.Raven, as you state these facts with some confidence as
> a self-declared scholar, could you please post some documentation 
> of these facts?

To what is this in reference?

> #6
> From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
> Message-ID: 
> 
> Where are those people? What happened to them?

This is a long-answer question. To be brief, however, many of them were in
the Soviet Union, while others emigrated to Israel and the United States.

> #7
> From: ah787@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Bill Stuart)
> Message-ID: 
> 
> There have been some mass graves uncovered, not enough bodies have been
> found to explain the 6 million missing, but then how do explain pits full
> of human ashes?

Which pits would those be?

> #8
> From: misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel)
> Message-ID: <3etd1c$mbg@riscsm.scripps.edu>
> 
>    Do you AGREE or DISagree that a list of 2.5 MILLION MISSING JEWS
> REFUTES your assertion that "there simply are not enough 'missing'
> Jews to support" (whatever)?
> 
>    If you disagree, on what grounds?

I have already answered this one. A list of names is not proof of a Nazi
plan to exterminate Jews in gas chambers. We could create a list of
"missing" children, and then attribute their disappearance to flying
saucers, but it wouldn't mean there are flying saucers. Let's see some
proof.

> #9
> From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
> Message-ID: 
> 
> Could you expand on point #2, particularly on why you say the design
> of the product is to prolong exposure time. And where your information
> is derived from.

The most cursory examination of the literature will show anyone this.
Liquid HCN is a dangerous thing with which to work. The inert carrier of
Zyklon B makes it much safer, and increases the "gassing off" process.

> #10
> From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
> Message-ID: <1995Jan10.180129.5297@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
> 
> Or do you also deny the murder of approximately six million Jews as a
> central act of state by the Nazis?  (Let's call it a minimum of five
> million, since the lowest estimate from any respectable historian is
> about 5.1 million.  If you say five million, I won't quibble.)

Yes. If you say otherwise, you have to show the "central orders" that
created this "central act." Hint: They don't exist.

> #11
> From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
> Message-ID: <3eur5m$4hg@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
> 
> "When people talk about mass homicidal gassings that last only a few 
> minutes".  Who are these "People"?  I don't know of any infomred 
> historians who make such claims--do you?

I know of informed historians who rely on so-called "eyewitness" testimony
as to the length of the so-called "gassings." If the historians do not
believe these claims, then they should not reproduce them without comment.

> #12
> From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
> Message-ID: <1995Jan10.225026.19216@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
> 
> Do you now agree, Mr. Raven, that we have some "physical evidence" for
> you?  If not, please explain why each of the ten items listed above is
> not physical evidence, and please give an example of what _would_ be
> physical evidence.

Please explain why you believe ANY of the items above are anying more than
silly questions? Where is the hard evidence? Surely even you must
understand the difference between an uninformed question and hard
evidence! Show me a Nazi gas chamber!

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 21419 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Greg's motivation (was Re: Old Nonsense Again, etc)
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Thu, 12 Jan 1995 23:14:38 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3end9v$9n3@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <3eqlv8$o6q@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
	<3esqas$kqd@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
	
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 04:28:05 GMT
Lines: 41


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>This post contains an incredible amount of misinformation. The IHR does
>not pay me one red cent for my time on the Internet, nor for my Internet
>account. This is my own, private, spare-time project.

I'm sure it's not in the accounting...this is pretty evasive
Raven. Not that I'm asking for any explanation, it's pretty obvious.

So in other words you're trying to convince everyone here that your
own fortunes are independent of IHR's?

And any good that your ads, etc, (you always tag ads onto your posts)
accompanied by your political materials, that comes to IHR will be of
no tangible benefit to you, even perhaps their ability to just keep
paying you for what they *do* pay you for?

You must be looking for some very stupid people Mr Raven, perhaps
you're in the wrong place?

--------------------

In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941 Sonderkommando 4a executed
33,771 Jews in Kiev.

	Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, 2 October 1941

During my visit to Kumhof I also saw the extermination installation,
with the lorry which had been set up for killing by means of motor
exhaust fumes. The head of the Kommando told me that this method,
however, was very unreliable, as the gas build-up was very irregular
and was often insufficient for killing.

	Rudolf Hoss, Commandant of Auschwitz, on a visit to Chelmno
	on 16 September 1942
-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Twelve posts with questions for Greg Raven
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Fri, 13 Jan 1995 07:08:07 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3evipp$n4p@riscsm.scripps.edu>
	
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 04:39:32 GMT
Lines: 36


This raven guy is just an idiot. No, even that's unfair to idiots.

I started to respond to his response but there's simply nothing here,
and much of it selectively edited by raven nonetheless, tho that's
less of a complaint I s'pose.

I mean, it's ridiculous, no one would believe this crap he spews, no
one.

Oh ok, just the response to me, only because one has to see it to
believe it:

From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) [responding to me]
>> Where are those people? What happened to them?
>
>This is a long-answer question. To be brief, however, many of them were in
>the Soviet Union, while others emigrated to Israel and the United States.

There you have it, millions of Jews are hanging out in bars somewhere
waiting for the phone to ring.

Oh, but what about the non-Jews? Did the million-ish Gypsies *also*
emigrate to Israel etc? And the Seventh Day Adventists? What about the
Russian POWs? They all got back home safe and sound?

Don't let Raven distract with the Jews. About half of the people
murdered by the Nazis were Jews. Make certain his responses apply to
both halves.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 21440 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Twelve posts with questions for Greg Raven
Date: 13 Jan 1995 21:21:26 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Greg Raven  wrote:

## How can one "quibble" with "about 60 percent of them will have 
## to be liquidated"?

# Who is quibbling? Not I.

If our resident "Holocaust revisionist" and Hitler admirer, Raven,
doesn't quibble with the entry in Goebbles' diary stating that
60 percent of the Jews will be murdered while the rest will be
used for forced labor, how does he explain it?

# I don't remember the quote, but what I meant to say was that 
# there are faster acting poisons than Zyklon B. HCN is reasonably 
# fast, but its activation is slowed considerably by the inert 
# carrier. 

So, it took 15-20 minutes for the people to die, and not 5
minutes - so what? Anyway, the bottleneck was the cremation
of the corpses, not the time it took to murder the victims.

# Carbon monoxide would be faster than Zyklon B, 

Says who? It's less poisonous than HCN, for sure.

# as would any of numerous nerve gasses.

This is stupid. Nerve gas would have been more expensive
and far more difficult to use. Also, the SS had a great deal
of experience with HCN.

## Where are those people? What happened to them?

# This is a long-answer question. 

Meaning, of course "I have no answer".

# To be brief, however, many of them were in the Soviet Union, 
# while others emigrated to Israel and the United States.

Nonsense. About 250,000 Jews arrived at Israel (then Palestine)
in the years following WW2. A rather small number reached the
US. There were a million less Jews in the USSR after WW2 than
before it.

## found to explain the 6 million missing, but then how do 
## explain pits full of human ashes?

# Which pits would those be?

In Treblinka, for instance.

# Yes. If you say otherwise, you have to show the "central 
# orders" that created this "central act." Hint: They don't exist.

Hitler and Himmler said the Jews will be exterminated and are
being exterminated. There are numerous documents detailing the
extermination process. These are posted here all the time.

# Show me a Nazi gas chamber!

In Maidanek and Auschwitz, for starters.


-Danny Keren.

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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Raven's Admiration for Hitler (was: Re: Twelve posts with qu
Date: 13 Jan 1995 21:27:33 GMT
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 Category 15,  Topic 4
 Message 33        Fri Mar 13, 1992
 G.RAVEN                      at 03:02 EST
 
 My only concern is in  going after the
 facts. As such, I am not interested in defending  Adolf Hitler to my dying
 breath. I will say, however, that he was a  great man ... certainly greater
 than Churchill and FDR put together,  and possibly the greatest leader of our
 century, if not longer. This  is not to say that he was perfect, but he about
 the best thing that  could have happened to Germany.



Just in case anyone forgot what we're dealing with here.


-Danny Keren.



Article 21473 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Greg Raven's answer #12:  an evasion
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 17:11:19 -0500
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Of the twelve questions, I will only address those three which were
quotes from me.  This article addresses what Mark Israel called #12.

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel) wrote:
> 
> > #12
> > Do you now agree, Mr. Raven, that we have some "physical evidence" for
> > you?  If not, please explain why each of the ten items listed above is
> > not physical evidence, and please give an example of what _would_ be
> > physical evidence.
> 
> Please explain why you believe ANY of the items above are anying more than
> silly questions? Where is the hard evidence? Surely even you must
> understand the difference between an uninformed question and hard
> evidence! Show me a Nazi gas chamber!

I hope Mr. Raven does not think that "the ten items" above refers to
the questions which Mark Israel collected.  Apparently, however, that
_is_ what he believes, despite the fact that there were eleven questions
prior, not ten.

I hope Mr. Raven does not expect us to believe that he did not _see_
the article with the ten items of physical evidence -- the article
from which question #12 was taken.  I do not believe that is the case,
because I posted that article only a few days ago.  And immediately
after posting it, I sent email to Mr. Raven directing his attention
to that article.

Perhaps Mr. Raven would like to claim that not only did he somehow not
see the article (despite his reply to others posted around the same time),
he did not see my email because he deleted it without reading it.
Mr. Raven, you see, has a policy of deleting any incoming email if he
suspects that it's a courtesy copy of an article from Usenet.  But the
trouble for Mr. Raven is, the subject of the article I sent him was,
quote, "Majdanek's gas chamber (don't delete, not from Usenet)", unquote.

In that email, I wrote:

   Hello, Mr. Raven.
   
   Mr. Stein brought up the subject of Majdanek's Bath and
   Disinfection chamber with you some time ago, and just a few hours
   ago posted another request for your comment to Usenet.
   
   I'd like to add my voice to his.  I've just posted a medium-length
   article on the same subject, detailing the chamber and Leuchter's
   analysis of it.  It seems that Fred very helpfully found a whole
   lot of very convincing "physical evidence" on his trip to Majdanek.
   
   Once you look at that evidence and pronounce it to be, indeed,
   physical evidence of the sort which you wanted, I'll begin posting
   testimonies about what went on in the chamber.  I'm sure we can
   have an interesting discussion about it.
  
      (email from Jamie McCarthy to Greg Raven et al., 10 Jan 1995)

Mr. Raven has yet to reply to that article.  Perhaps next he'll claim
that I've been hiding it from him.

To forestall that possibility, here is the text of that article, again.
Apologies for the wasted bandwidth.

A copy of this entire article will be cleverly hidden in Mr. Raven's
mailbox, as a courtesy.



From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
Subject: Majdanek
Message-ID: <1995Jan10.225026.19216@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 22:50:26 GMT

Mr. Raven, I am interested to try to figure out exactly what you will
and will not accept as evidence for the gas chambers.  Michael Stein
has located something which I think might be acceptable to you as
evidence, and I would like to hear your take on the matter.

That something is the Bath and Disinfection building at Majdanek.
It seems to answer your questions:  "show me a gas chamber" and
"what physical evidence is there?"

As _Nazi Mass Murder_ says (Kogon et al., ed., Yale University Press,
1993, p. 175):

   The iron doors with their rubber packing could be securely bolted;
   they were furnished by the firm of Auert in Berlin. ^5  In its
   judgement the Duesserldorf court mentions "at least three concrete
   rooms, provided with tight-fitting steel doors," and estimates the
   capacity of the big room as "up to three hundred" and of the small
   rooms as "up to 150 people each."
   
   Both Zyklon B and carbon monoxide were used for killing.  As
   regards the gassing process, the Duesseldorf court reached the same
   conclusions drawn by other investigations:
   
      The carbon monoxide, which was in steel bottles, was introduced
      through a system of ducts leading from an anteroom located in
      front of one of the small gas chambers.  From this anteroom the
      gas flow was regulated by means of a hand-operated valve, and
      the gassing process could be observed without danger through a
      little window in the wall.  Gassing with Zyklon B, contained in
      cans, was carried out in the following manner: the contents of
      the cans were emptied directly into the chambers through funnels
      set into the ceiling, or else by the machines that produced the
      hot air necessary to release the gas, especially when the
      weather was cold. ^6
   
   Note 5: [Letter to the head office of the Central Construction
   Department of the Waffen SS and the police,] letter no. 17.  The
   delivery numbers of the firm were 656, 657, 659.
   
   Note 6: [StA Duesseldorf AZ: 8 Ks 1/75, judgement of 30 June 1981
   (ZSL Coll.: 577)] pp. 80f.

I realize you're not interested in testimonial evidence before you've
seen physical evidence, but for the record I'll point out that such
testimony does exist.  There are numerous examples in _NMM_;  here's
the first (p. 176):

   The head of the gas chambers and crematoria, SS-Hauptscharffuehrer
   Erich Muhsfeld, testified on 4 August 1947 while a prisoner in
   Poland that "the arriving convoys were always submitted to a
   selection process... Those unfit for work were asphyxiated in the
   gas chamber." ^12
   
   Note 12: Record of the interrogation of Erich Muhsfeld, Maidanek
   State Museum Archives, microfilm no. 66.

And there is contemporary evidence as well (ibid):

   Dr. Jan Nowak, a Polish physician assigned to take care of
   prisoners, succeeded in July 1943 in getting the following
   information to a correspondent outside the camp: "Every day the
   weak, the cachectic, and those unable to work are put to death.
   From the infirmary block I was able to observe, helplessly, these
   unfortunate people marching to the gas chambers.  Yesterday, late
   in the evening, several dozen Soviet officers were delivered and
   gassed." ^13
   
   Note 13: [Josef Marszalek, _Majdanek: Geschichte und Wirklichkeit
   des Vernichtungslagers_ (Maidanek: History and reality of the
   extermination center) (Hamburg: Rowohlt, 1982)] p. 145.

The question is, what physical evidence remains there today?  That
question can be answered by the infamous Holocaust "revisionist," Fred
Leuchter, in his so-called "Leuchter Report."  Read carefully. This is
from p. 13 in my version, though I'm told it's on pp. 17-18 in another
version:

   The alleged experimental gas chambers, located at Bath and
   Disinfection Building #1, are a brick building connected to the
   main facility by a loose wood structure.  This building is
   surrounded on three sides by a depressed concrete walkway.  There
   are two chambers, an unknown area and a control booth, which has
   two steel cylinders, allegedly having contained carbon monoxide,
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   which are piped into the two chambers. There are four steel doors
   with a rabbet, presumably for a gasket.  The doors open out and are
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   fastened with two mechanical latches and a locking bar (hasp).  All
                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   four doors have glass peep holes and the two inner doors have
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   chemical test cylinders, to test the air in the chamber.  The
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   control booth has an open window of some 6 inches x 10 inches,
   never having provision for glass or gasketing, barred horizontally
   and vertically with reinforcing rods and opening into chamber #2.
   See drawing.  Two of the doors open into chamber #1, one front and
   one rear, to the outside.  One door opens into chamber #2 in the
   front.  The remaining door opens into an unknown area behind
   chamber #2.  Both chambers have piping, allegedly for carbon
                                   ^^^^^^
   monoxide gas, but that in chamber #2 is incomplete, apparently
   never having been completed.  Chamber #1 has finished piping,
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   terminated in gas ports at two corners of the room.  Chamber #2 has
                 ^^^^^^^^^
   provision for a roof vent, but it appears never to have been cut
   through the roof.  Chamber #1 has a heater/circulatory system for
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   the air, which is not properly designed (the inlet and outlet are
   too close) and has no provision for venting.  The walls are of
   stucco, the roof and floor are of poured concrete, none of which
   has been sealed inside or out.  There are two heater circulators
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   built as sheds on the side of the building, one for chamber #1 and
   the other for something in the Bath and Disinfection facility,
   forward, (see drawing) neither of which are properly designed and
   have no provision for vent/exhaust.  The walls in chamber #1 have
   the characteristic blue ferric-ferro-cyanide staining.  The
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   building is unheated and damp.
   
   Although at first glance these facilities appear properly designed,
   they fail to meet all the required criteria for an execution gas
   chamber or delousing facility.  First, there is no sealant on any
   of the inside or outside surfaces.  Second, the depressed walkway
   is a potential gas trap for HCN, making the building extremely
   dangerous.  Chamber #2 is incomplete and probably was never used.
   The piping is incomplete and the vent has never been opened in the
   roof.  Although chamber #1 is operational for carbon monoxide, it
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   is poorly heated and not operational for HCN.  The heater/
   circulator is improperly installed.  There is no vent or stack.

Let's just look at what Mr. Leuchter calls "chamber #1" for the moment.
Still extant today, as admitted by a prominent Holocast revisionist,
are:  (1) steel cylinders for carbon monoxide, (2) a rabbet (groove)
for a gasket to make the room airtight, (3) a bar to lock the doors,
(4) glass peep holes to see when the victims are dead, (5) devices to
test the air in the chamber to see when it's safe to open the doors,
(6) piping for the gas, including (7) the ports where the gas enters
the chambers, (8) a heating and circulation system, (9) two external
heater circulations, and (10) stains of cyanide compounds.

And finally, according to Mr. Leuchter, the chamber "is operational for
carbon monoxide."  As I'm sure you know, Mr. Raven, carbon monoxide
could not have been used for delousing, it's ineffective on insects. 
It could only have been used to kill people.

Now, Mr. Leuchter goes on to conclude:

   Therefore, it is the author's best engineering opinion that chambers
   #1 and #2 were never, and could not ever, be used as execution gas
   chambers.  None of the facilities at Majdanek are suitable, or were
   used, for execution purposes.

...but that's just his _opinion_, of course, and you were not interested
in opinion, Mr. Raven, only in physical evidence.

Now, Mr. Leuchter holds the mistaken belief that, for carbon monoxide
chambers to kill effectively, they must be pressurized to several
atmospheres.  Since the chamber is not of course equipped to produce a
pressurized environment, his erroneous belief leads him to an erroneous
conclusion.  If you like, I will be happy to point out exactly why Mr.
Leuchter's claim is false and why his conclusion is thus unworthy of
consideration.  But in any case, the facts remain that, as admitted by
a Holocaust revisionist, ten separate pieces of evidence of a homicidal
gas chamber at Majdanek still remain today.

(The value of Mr. Leuchter's "best engineering opinion" may be judged by
the reader.  He was not and never has been a licensed engineer, by the
way.  Pressurization is by no means necessary for CO gas to kill, of
course.  Despite the "Prussian blue" staining that indicates, beyond
any doubt, heavy HCN use in chamber #1, he somehow comes to the
conclusion that it is "not operational for HCN."  More interesting is
his note that the "depressed walkway is a potential gas trap for HCN." 
He is apparently unaware that the gas is not heavy -- it's about 4%
lighter than air.)

Do you now agree, Mr. Raven, that we have some "physical evidence" for
you?  If not, please explain why each of the ten items listed above is
not physical evidence, and please give an example of what _would_ be
physical evidence.

Mind you, I'm not asking whether you _accept_ that this room is a gas
chamber.  I'm sure you don't, and that's fine (for now).  Mr. Leuchter
doesn't accept that it was a gas chamber, and that's fine too (for
now).  I'm only interested in whether your criteria for "physical
evidence" have been met.

If you do admit that we have physical evidence for this particular
gas chamber, then we will now begin to introduce more testimony that
it was used as such.  As you'll recall, you told us:

   Do you have proof of the gas chambers or don't you?  If you do, then
   use your testimony in conjunction with your evidence.
   
      (Greg Raven, email to Jamie McCarthy, 14 Dec 1994,
       id 199412150215.SAA21947@kaiwan.kaiwan.com,
       posted to Usenet at author's request, 20 Dec 1994,
       id 1994Dec20.171420.21862@hobbes.kzoo.edu)

Now that the evidence has been presented, Mr. Raven, the testimony-
in-conjuction will be shortly forthcoming.  Unless you object...?

Thanks go to Mike Stein for pointing out Leuchter's references to this
gas chamber.  Mr. Stein has previously contacted Mr. Raven in email on
this matter and has received no reply.  He posted an article again
requesting comment from Mr. Raven just a few hours ago.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Greg Raven's answer #10:  an attempt to mislead
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 17:18:37 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
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Of the twelve questions, I will only address those three which were
quotes from me.  This article addresses what Mark Israel called #10.

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel) wrote:
> 
> > #10
> > Or do you also deny the murder of approximately six million Jews as a
> > central act of state by the Nazis?  (Let's call it a minimum of five
> > million, since the lowest estimate from any respectable historian is
> > about 5.1 million.  If you say five million, I won't quibble.)
> 
> Yes.

There you have it, folks.  He denies the Holocaust.

He has defined the word "Holocaust" for us as "the murder of six million
Jews as a central act of state by the Nazis during the Second World War,
many in gas chambers."

He denies the gas chambers existed.  And he denies that six million Jews
were murdered as a central act of state by the Nazis.

Ergo, he denies the Holocaust.

Furthermore, he attempts to mislead people about it.  Here's the
disingenuous part.  A few days ago, Mr. Raven took exception with my
assertion that he denied the Holocaust.  He said he did not, and wrote:

   Apparently, for McCarthy there can be no "Holocaust" without gas
   chambers, which means for him that none of the suffering of Jews who
   were evicted from their homes, shot in the Eastern territories,
   robbed, worked to death in labor camps, or otherwise mistreated is
   worth mentioning:  those who did not die in a Nazi gas chamber are
   beneath his consideration.

Now we see that Mr. Raven denies the entire Holocaust, not merely the
suggestion that gas chambers were involved.  Thus his whole canard
about his only wanting to "revise" the Holocaust to eliminate the part
about gas chambers was simply a ruse.

And not even a very clever one, I might add.

> If you say otherwise, you have to show the "central orders" that
> created this "central act." Hint: They don't exist.

We don't have the orders, Mr. Raven, presumably because they were oral,
or were written down and then destroyed.  What we do have is Himmler
saying that the Jews' destruction is in the Nazi program.  That quote
has been presented to you many times, and it's even in my .sig.

But your treatment of that quote is also in my .sig.  You refuse to
acknowledge Himmler's order because he doesn't mention gas chambers.
Presumably you wouldn't even accept as evidence a signed note from
Hitler saying "I order that we exterminate all the Jews," unless he
also added "P.S. and use gas chambers to do it, please."
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


Article 21475 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Greg Raven's answer #3:  a lie
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 17:19:04 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
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References: <3evipp$n4p@riscsm.scripps.edu>
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-03.dialip.mich.net

Of the twelve questions, I will only address those three which were
quotes from me.  This article addresses what Mark Israel called #3.

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel) wrote:
> 
> > #3
> > Mr. Raven, you've stated previously that there were better gasses for
> > the Nazis to use than hydrocyanic acid.  I asked you to name one, and
> > you responded with silence.  Given that you used the plural, I'd think
> > you were aware of several.  Surely you can name one.
> > 
> > Will you now name one gas that would have been, in your words,
> > "faster-acting" or otherwise "better" for the Nazis to use?
> 
> I don't remember the quote, but what I meant to say was that there are
> faster acting poisons than Zyklon B. HCN is reasonably fast, but its
> activation is slowed considerably by the inert carrier. Carbon monoxide
> would be faster than Zyklon B, for example, as would any of numerous nerve
> gasses.

No, that is _not_ what you meant to say.  You said that there were
better gasses than HCN, not Zyklon-B.

With regard to carbon monoxide being faster than Zyklon-B, you are
comparing apples and oranges.  One could estimate whether carbon
monoxide would be faster than HCN, presumably taking into account
the difference in toxicity levels somehow.  But the speed of death
from CO or Zyklon-B will depend entirely on the delivery method.
In the circumstances under which the gassings occurred, CO was
significantly slower than Zyklon-B.  I state this with confidence
after several months of researching and discussing Friedrich Berg's
claim that the CO gas chambers at the Reinhard camps could not kill
people quickly enough.  I think Mr. Berg, a colleague of Mr. Raven,
will be the first to tell him that CO is very slow-acting compared
to the almost incredibly toxic HCN.

The whole argument about Zyklon-B not "gassing off" gast enough is
stupid anyway.  If one canister of Zyklon-B gives off n milligrams
of HCN per second over the first few minutes, and the amount of HCN
necessary to kill people is 5n milligrams per second, then one can
just use five cans.  The Nazis had literally tons of the poison lying
around for delousing purposes, as Greg Raven will admit.  Or does
Mr. Raven think the Nazis were too stupid to dump in extra cans of
Zyklon-B?

In short, the question has not been answered, unless "carbon
monoxide" is Mr. Raven's final answer.  If that is your final answer,
Mr. Raven, I will be happy to demonstrate that you are wrong.  If you
have others in mind -- as I presume you do, because you said "gasses"
in the plural -- then please name them.  "Numerous nerve gasses" is
not an acceptable answer.  Just name one.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


Article 21481 of alt.revisionism:
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From: uroessl1@news.gwdg.de (Roessler  Ulrich)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Twelve posts with questions for Greg Raven
Date: 14 Jan 1995 18:34:25 +0100
Organization: GWDG, Goettingen
Lines: 110
Message-ID: <3f91v1$1kl@gwdu19.gwdg.de>
References: <3evipp$n4p@riscsm.scripps.edu> 
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #6 (NOV)

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>In article <3evipp$n4p@riscsm.scripps.edu>, misrael@scripps.edu (Mark
>Israel) wrote:

[..]

>> #5
>> From: uroessl1@news.gwdg.de (Roessler Ulrich)
>> Message-ID: <3esapb$h63@gwdu19.gwdg.de>
>> 
>> Mr.Raven, as you state these facts with some confidence as
>> a self-declared scholar, could you please post some documentation 
>> of these facts?

>To what is this in reference?

I posted the following article recently 
(NOT e-mailed):

>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: Holocaust in Revisionist View (was: Re: Reply to 'Best Evidence'
>>References: 
>>
>>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:
>>
>>[..]
>>
>>>                        I do not "deny" the Holocaust. I specifically
>>>stated that I agree that some Jews suffered horribly during the Second
>>>World War, some solely because they were Jewish, and that some had died,
>>>from a variety of causes.
>>
>>Mr.Raven, as you state these facts with some confidence as
>>a self-declared scholar, could you please post some documentation 
>>of these facts?
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>My attention was especially caught by this paragraph: 
>>
>>>                   Apparently, for McCarthy there can be no "Holocaust"
>>>without gas chambers, which means for him that none of the suffering of
>>>Jews who were evicted from their homes, shot in the Eastern territories,
>>>robbed, worked to death in labor camps, or otherwise mistreated is worth
>>>mentioning: those who did not die in a Nazi gas chamber are beneath his
>>>consideration. McCarthy is more of a "Holocaust deniar" than virtually all
>>>the revisionists I know, and I know most of them.
>>
>>I really wondered how you possibly could know about these facts.
>>
>>Some examples, case-studies, would be quite welcome.
>>The paragraph quoted above is rather specific about these sufferings,
>>"labor camps", "mistreated", "worked to death", "shot" ...,
>>so I thought you might provide some documentation here, 
>>as every scholar should be able to, when he states something as 
>>known fact.
>>
>>Moreover, it would be necessary to know something about
>>the reasons which led to these "horrible sufferings", i.e. 
>>about motivations and policies of the perpetrators, 
>>and their organization.
>>
>>And last but not least, I'd like to hear something like an 
>>estimate of the number of victims of that policy. For a start, 
>>I wouldn't mind some more or less incomplete sketch of 
>>this history in "revisionist" view - 
>>but you should have something at hand at least to justify
>>your claim of legitimate revisionism.
>>
>>Naturally, my main concern is your methodology, as I
>>still can't swallow your assertion that witness-testimonies aren't
>>evidence. You, so far, failed to discuss this point, e.g. in answer
>>to Mr.Hoover, who was quite detailed and convincing in his rebuttal 
>>of your opinion. 
>>May be, we can create now some basic understanding of 
>>your historiographic methodology when discussing some uncontested facts.
>>
>>I know that you are only interested in gas-chambers, or so you said, 
>>but here again start my problems when you, seemingly, state something
>>as well-known fact about the Holocaust (for instance, that
>>many victims were shot, or worked to death) without providing 
>>sufficient evidence. From my own knowledge, I wonder, how these facts, 
>>"the horrible sufferings of some Jews", fit in my notion of "revisionist 
>>scholarship" at large. 
>>(I'm thinking of Staeglich's description of Auschwitz, e.g.
>> You surely know the man, as you know most of them.)
>>
>>[..]
>>
>>>-- 
>>>Greg Raven
>>>mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
>>>http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
>>[..]
>>
>>u.roessler                                         uroessl1@gwdg.de
>>
>>"Der Bursche ist eine Katastrophe; das ist kein Grund 
>> ihn als Charakter und Schicksal nicht interessant zu finden."
>>

[..]

>-- 
>Greg Raven
>mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr

u.roessler                                         uroessl1@gwdg.de


Article 21482 of alt.revisionism:
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From: uroessl1@news.gwdg.de (Roessler  Ulrich)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Twelve posts with questions for Greg Raven
Date: 14 Jan 1995 21:42:36 +0100
Organization: GWDG, Goettingen
Lines: 330
Message-ID: <3f9cvs$8kg@gwdu19.gwdg.de>
References: <3evipp$n4p@riscsm.scripps.edu> 
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #6 (NOV)

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>In article <3evipp$n4p@riscsm.scripps.edu>, misrael@scripps.edu (Mark
>Israel) wrote:

>> #1
>> From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
>> Message-ID: <3eqtln$acl@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
>> 
>> How can one "quibble" with "about 60 percent of them will have to be 
>> liquidated"?

>Who is quibbling? Not I.

This is no answer. (Is it quibbling? I really don't know that word.)

>> #2
>> From: pankiewicz@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl (Jerzy Pankiewicz)
>> Message-ID: <3equn6$nrc@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl>
>> 
>> Is this your real problem 6.0 vs. 5.1 milion? Or maybe even 4.6 milion.
>> Does it make Nazis more human?

>If there is no difference, then why not tell the true number, instead of
>running the total up in endless attempts to demonize the Nazis?

There are two different parts in your answer. First the
scientific question about our knowledge of the number of victims,
and, on the other hand, the morale judgement. The latter is actually 
a very simple question.
The morale judgement about the Nazi crimes doesn't depend on the 
number of their victims. The bargaining in millions of deads is 
abominable. Crimes against humanity are crimes against humanity - 
even if we do not know the exact number of victims.

However, the scientific question about the number of victims isn't
obscene. Mr.Raven keeps on saying that historians tell different 
numbers. But the earlier works and estimates (Reitlinger, the numbers 
of the Anglo-American commitee based on the material presented 
at the Nuremberg trials) could be improved over the years since. 
Reitlinger's low estimates are based on a far too low number of
victims in Soviet Union. He not only believed that the reports
of the Einsatzgruppen were exaggerated, but, moreover, didn't
know about the second wave of mass-murders in the later years of
Nazi occupied SU. His numbers for the other European 
countries are quite similar to newer estimates - here the known data, 
list of deportation trains, census data, population registers etc.,
allow very precise evaluation.
Later numbers and estimates are better as over the time, historians
could evaluate more material. The latest estimates of the number
of Jewish victims of the Holocaust are in any case near to 6 million.
(Independent Investigations by the Yad Vashem researchers, published in the
Holocaust Encyclopedia, and by the Inst.f.Zeitgeschichte, Munich,
published by W.Benz(ed.) "Dimension des V"olkermords: Die
Zahl der j"udischen Opfer des Nationalsozialismus " (1991))
While the numbers for most European countries are very well
known for years, some uncertainty remains with respect to Soviet Union
and in part with Romania. This is rlated to the problem of the lack of
census data, the shift of borders in Eastern Europe during WWII and the
aftermath etc. Most discrepancies in these numbers are just based on
systematic questions and can be explained, as e.g. how to count the 
victims in Eastern Poland, which was occupied by SU between 1939-41, 
or how to count refugees and emigrants caught later by the Nazis 
when occupying other countries.

Less well known is the number of gypsies murdered.  While the number of
those murdered in the concentration camps may be estimated with some
precision, there is too little known about executions on spot in Soviet 
Union, Yugoslavia, and other countries. I have seen numbers ranging 
between 250,000 and up to nearly one million. 
For the other many groups of victims, numbers are in generally very
well established - this is so, because they were registered for
deportation and by the administration of the camps, or because one 
knows the numbers of slave laborers used in certain projects, and 
the rate of mortality from the files of the Nazis. Even death 
certificates were issued there, e.g. in the case of political prisoners, 
or in the "Euthanasia" murders.
These numbers can be checked against the numbers of deported and missing
people, DPs etc. in their respective home countries.
The methodic problems of all these different studies are well known,
and discussed in the huge amount of literature about the Holocaust.
If Mr.Raven wants to do any research he should focus his investigations 
to the vast amount of the work done already. Just "quoting" several numbers, 
and stating that there were discrepancies isn't legitimate revisionism.

>> #3
>> From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
>> Message-ID: 
>> 
>> Mr. Raven, you've stated previously that there were better gasses for
>> the Nazis to use than hydrocyanic acid.  I asked you to name one, and
>> you responded with silence.  Given that you used the plural, I'd think
>> you were aware of several.  Surely you can name one.
>> 
>> Will you now name one gas that would have been, in your words,
>> "faster-acting" or otherwise "better" for the Nazis to use?

>I don't remember the quote, but what I meant to say was that there are
>faster acting poisons than Zyklon B. HCN is reasonably fast, but its
>activation is slowed considerably by the inert carrier. Carbon monoxide
>would be faster than Zyklon B, for example, as would any of numerous nerve
>gasses.

Well, carbon monoxide was indeed used by the organisation of the T4
action, and/or in the gas vans used by them in later actions.
Later these henchmen used simply motor exhausts to asphyxiate their
victims.

Nerve gasses were not so easy to handle by the SS - this would have
required direct support by the Wehrmacht or the (chemical) armament
production. The usage of Zyklon B was by far cheaper and simpler -
and the logistic could be held secrete by the SS. The testimonies and
internal reports indicate that the methods used in the mass-killings
were largely improvised by the lower staff, the local commanders of
the SS, or the camps. This explains, why there wasn't a huge research
project, how to kill defenseless men, women and children by thousands 
in the most efficient way. It was simple enough.

>> #4
>> From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
>> Message-ID: <3espms$kl9@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
>> 
>> The people were reported missing by their loved ones--are you trying to 
>> say that their loved ones may possibly have been lying and that those 
>> people (A) are not dead or (B) never existed int he first place?  

>There are numerous cases where people thought dead were actually living
>somewhere else. However, it is possible that some people are lying about
>the numbers of relatives they lost. Whether people are lying or wrong is
>beside the point, however. The point is, where are these fantastic
>chemical slaughterhouses -- the Nazi gas chambers?

Again, your answer consists of two points. It is indeed possible, 
that people are lying. But the idea of people inventing missing 
relatives, and actively looking for them is bizarre at best, 
and insulting in reality. Why should they do this? To what end?

The other point. Gas chambers are pretty simple and not fantastic
slaughterhouses. While there still exists indeed one of the gas
chambers used in Majdanek, relics of others remained in Auschwitz, 
others were destroyed by the Nazis when covering up the traces. 
Actually, the extermination sites of the 'Aktion Reinhard', Belzec, 
Sobibor, and Treblinka, were completely distroyed.

This is very well documented. Moreover, it is very well documented, 
that in several actions, the SS opened mass-graves all over in 
Europe and burned the corpses, just to destroy the evidence of
their crimes. Mr.Raven seems to belief that a crime didn't take 
place, because the perpetrators tried to destroy the traces.

>> #5
>> From: uroessl1@news.gwdg.de (Roessler Ulrich)
>> Message-ID: <3esapb$h63@gwdu19.gwdg.de>
>> 
>> Mr.Raven, as you state these facts with some confidence as
>> a self-declared scholar, could you please post some documentation 
>> of these facts?

>To what is this in reference?

See parallel article in this thread.

>> #6
>> From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
>> Message-ID: 
>> 
>> Where are those people? What happened to them?

>This is a long-answer question. To be brief, however, many of them were in
>the Soviet Union, while others emigrated to Israel and the United States.

But from population stats, it is very clearly seen, that several
million European Jews were missing in 1945.
And there is no trace of them in Soviet Union, nor anywhere else. 
In the Central and East European regions, where before the war
a lively Jewish culture existed, there hardly lived Jews any more.

The sources clearly show, that most of them lived in German 
occupied Europe, that they were deported then by the Germans and were 
in the custody of the SS, when they have been seen for the last time.
Any idea where they are? 

>> #7
>> From: ah787@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Bill Stuart)
>> Message-ID: 
>> 
>> There have been some mass graves uncovered, not enough bodies have been
>> found to explain the 6 million missing, but then how do explain pits full
>> of human ashes?

> Which pits would those be?

>> #8
>> From: misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel)
>> Message-ID: <3etd1c$mbg@riscsm.scripps.edu>
>> 
>>    Do you AGREE or DISagree that a list of 2.5 MILLION MISSING JEWS
>> REFUTES your assertion that "there simply are not enough 'missing'
>> Jews to support" (whatever)?
>> 
>>    If you disagree, on what grounds?

>I have already answered this one. A list of names is not proof of a Nazi
>plan to exterminate Jews in gas chambers. We could create a list of
>"missing" children, and then attribute their disappearance to flying
>saucers, but it wouldn't mean there are flying saucers. Let's see some
>proof.

The International Tracing Service of the IRC in Arolsen has
about thirty million records about civilians missed in WWII and 
of certified deaths in the concentration camps. This is one of 
the data basis used to get the 2.5 million names of Jewish victims 
of the Holocaust held in Yad Vashem. For these victims, one can
clearly reconstruct their fate - in most cases one knows the
exact dates, when they were deported and where, one does even 
know the first concentration camp, they were sent to; the
further transports to the extermination centers are ascertained
by transport lists, numbers of trains used between these 
concentration camps and witness testimonies. This together with 
our knowledge about the devices used in the mass-killings,
the war-time reports and testimonies of the perpetrators themselves,
and later testimonies and confessions in trials held later,
constitutes enough evidence for the Holocaust.
As Mr.Raven never attempts to answer the question, what became
of all these people, he has no point. But legitmate revisionism
should be able to answer this question.

>> #9
>> From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
>> Message-ID: 
>> 
>> Could you expand on point #2, particularly on why you say the design
>> of the product is to prolong exposure time. And where your information
>> is derived from.

>The most cursory examination of the literature will show anyone this.
>Liquid HCN is a dangerous thing with which to work. The inert carrier of
>Zyklon B makes it much safer, and increases the "gassing off" process.

What would that be, this increased "gassing off" process?
I'm quite sure, that the question about the time needed for 
the HCN to evaporate from the carrier and the time needed for the
expansion of this gas throughout the chamber will be answered sooner 
or later in another thread.

>> #10
>> From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
>> Message-ID: <1995Jan10.180129.5297@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
>> 
>> Or do you also deny the murder of approximately six million Jews as a
>> central act of state by the Nazis?  (Let's call it a minimum of five
>> million, since the lowest estimate from any respectable historian is
>> about 5.1 million.  If you say five million, I won't quibble.)

>Yes. If you say otherwise, you have to show the "central orders" that
>created this "central act." Hint: They don't exist.

It is interesting to note that for other central acts of the Nazi
government there do not exist written orders in the same place: 
For most attacks on neighbouring countries no written order was given 
any more by Hitler or other Nazi leaders. For instance the order
to attack Soviet Union was given only orally. Here the traces
of these orders can be found in the files of the military high command, 
and can be confirmed by the testimonies of the generals, who received
these orders - first to prepare, then to start the "Barbarossa action".
Only downward in the hierarchy especially in the Wehrmacht-staffs 
and administrations something like a rationale bureaucracy 
was required, and regularly written orders were given.

The same goes already with the extermination of the SA-leaders 
(Roehm et al.) in the night of long knives.
The very top of the Nazi hierarchy acted like mobsters. 
The Nazi army and organisation of henchmen and torturers, the SS, 
followed largely the same practise. However, there exist
enough traces to confirm that the Holocaust was a central
act of state. May be, Mr.Raven could finally address Himmler's 
Posen speeches, the Wannsee-conference protocol, or the entries
about the "Judenfrage" in  Goebbels' diaries. 
These "concerns" about the Jews, showed by the very top
of the Nazi government, must have had some meaning. 
Again, these and other documents in relation with the known 
facts about the violence and mass-murders against Jews 
by the German forces everywhere in Europe is enough evidence 
that the Holocaust is correctly described as central act of 
the German state during WWII.
But, what do those documents mean in revisionist view?

>> #11
>> From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
>> Message-ID: <3eur5m$4hg@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
>> 
>> "When people talk about mass homicidal gassings that last only a few 
>> minutes".  Who are these "People"?  I don't know of any infomred 
>> historians who make such claims--do you?

>I know of informed historians who rely on so-called "eyewitness" testimony
>as to the length of the so-called "gassings." If the historians do not
>believe these claims, then they should not reproduce them without comment.

Please quote these historians, and give proper references to the sources.

>> #12
>> From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
>> Message-ID: <1995Jan10.225026.19216@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
>> 
>> Do you now agree, Mr. Raven, that we have some "physical evidence" for
>> you?  If not, please explain why each of the ten items listed above is
>> not physical evidence, and please give an example of what _would_ be
>> physical evidence.

>Please explain why you believe ANY of the items above are anying more than
>silly questions? Where is the hard evidence? Surely even you must
>understand the difference between an uninformed question and hard
>evidence! Show me a Nazi gas chamber!

May be, you should visit the Majdanek camp?

I assume you didn't imply any insult with your statement about "silly" 
and "uninformed" questions. To put it mildly, your answers aren't
satisfying, let alone, enlightening.

>-- 
>Greg Raven
>mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr

u.roessler                                         uroessl1@gwdg.de

"Natuerlich hilft kein Ohrenarzt und kein Sirenengesang
 bei Leuten, die sich Granaten in die Ohren stopfen."


Article 21489 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Who is changing Pressac's story?
Date: 17 Jan 1995 14:33:42 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <3fh62m$844@access4.digex.net>
References: <3end9v$9n3@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <3eqlv8$o6q@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3esqas$kqd@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>As for Faurisson vs. Pressac, anyone who is paying attention knows that it
>is Pressac who is changing his story, not Faurisson. But if you wish to
>stick to Pressac, please feel free. Come talk to me a couple years from
>now and we'll see just what your Mr. Pressac is saying then.

    Indeed I would like to see what Mr. Pressac is saying - not what Greg
Raven says Mr. Pressac is saying.  Anyone who has been paying attention
for the past few months knows that Greg Raven has previously been shown to
have posted a lie about what Pressac said on the subject of the testimony
of Bo"ck.

    On that occasion, when I asked for the page number containing
Pressac's actual text so that I could see for myself Pressac's actual
words rather than Raven's paraphrase, Raven tried to cover up the lie by
refusing to give a page number citation.

    So while I don't know anything about Pressac changing his story, I
do know about _Raven_ changing Pressac's story.  Greg Raven cannot be 
trusted to represent Pressac or any other source honestly, as I and 
others have demonstrated on many occasions.

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 21731 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: My challenge to the anti-revisionists: an update
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 08:51:00 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 51
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

Many months ago, I asked for the anti-revisionists in alt.revisionism to
tell me what they considered to be the best evidence that the Nazis had a
plan or policy to exterminate millions of Jews in homicidal gas chambers.
Not only did no one respond substantively to this challenge, so far no one
has even succeeded in producing evidence of a single homicidal gas
chamber.

What I have received is a bunch of testimonies of uneven value (many of
which don't mention Jews at all!), and a forgery or two. Only one person,
after many months, offered up a "gas chamber," his best evidence for its
existence being the Leuchter Report, which he had previously lambasted as
being unreliable from front to back. This person combed through the
Leuchter Report to find one point at which Leuchter wrote: "Although
chamber No. 1 is operation for carbon monoxide, it is poorly vented and
not operational for HCN." (See David Cole's analysis of this "carbon
monoxide" chamber in Ross Vicksell's post.) In so doing, he completely
skipped over a previously section in which Leuchter wrote, in reference to
this chamber 1: "This room, clearly, was not an execution chamber and
meets none of the described criteria." He also managed somehow to skip
over a passage three sentences after his "proof" sentence where Leuchter
wrote: "Therefore it is the author's best engineering opinion that
chambers No. 1 and No. 2 were never, and could not ever, be used as
execution gas chambers. _None of the facilities at Majdanek are suitable,
or were used, for execution purposes"_ (emphasis in original).

In summary, months after making a challenge that should have been very
simple to meet, if in fact the Holocaust extermination stories are
correct, we see that those who most rabidly believe in the "gas chamber"
stories have no substantive evidence to back up their claims. (For those
of you who believe that testimonies are evidence, check out any of the
many testimonies from people who claim to have been kidnapped by aliens
and taken into flying saucers. For me, I'll wait until I see an
operational flying saucer, thank you.)

In all fairness, it is not only the anti-revisionists in alt.revisionism
who cannot produce a Nazi gas chamber. No one anywhere has ever produced a
Nazi gas chamber. At the very least, this suggests that traditional
extermination stories surrounding the Holocaust are exaggerated, and that
there is a real need for thorough, impartial examination of Holocaust
claims to determine what is factual and what is not. This, then, is the
job of the revisionist historian.

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 21737 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: My challenge to the anti-revisionists: an update
Date: 23 Jan 1995 17:48:15 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 92
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References: 
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In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>Only one person, after many months, offered up a "gas chamber," his best 
>evidence for its existence being the Leuchter Report, which he had 
>previously lambasted as being unreliable from front to back.

    But which Greg Raven had previously presented as reliable.  I was 
only trying to give Raven evidence _he_ accepts as valid.

>This person combed through the
>Leuchter Report to find one point at which Leuchter wrote: "Although
>chamber No. 1 is operation for carbon monoxide, it is poorly vented and
>not operational for HCN." (See David Cole's analysis of this "carbon
>monoxide" chamber in Ross Vicksell's post.)

    Well, I actually agree with Cole that the Leuchter Report is
worthless, but Raven himself has repeatedly cited it as evidence.  Do Greg
Raven and Ross Vicksell now agree that the report is worthless, or do they
stand by their previous position that Leuchter is a fully qualified
engineer expert in these matters?

    (I have yet to fully digest Cole's remarks; I want to make sure I line
up his identification of the chambers with Leuchter's correctly.)


>In so doing, he completely
>skipped over a previously section in which Leuchter wrote, in reference to
>this chamber 1: "This room, clearly, was not an execution chamber and
>meets none of the described criteria."

    Once again Raven proves he either can't read English or is a baldfaced
liar. 

    Leuchter starts the section with a description of the facilities of
interest, including "the Bath and Disinfection Building No. 1, which
contained a shower, delousing and storage room and the alleged
experimental CO and HCN gas chambers." 

    The quoted line refers to the delousing/storage area, an L-shaped room
which "comprises some 7,657 cu. ft. of volume and has an area of 806 sq.
ft."  It is _not_ in reference to the room which Leuchter says is
operational for CO. 

    _After_ delivering this line, two paragraphs down Leuchter begins to
speak of "[t]he alleged experimental gas chambers located at Bath and
Disinfection Building No. 1."  At the end of the Majdanek section Leuchter
gives the volume of Chamber No. 1 as 4,240 cu. ft. and its area as 480 sq.
ft.  Therefore it cannot be the same as the L-shaped room.  (The line
quoted from the list of facilities at the start of the section further
proves that it is not the same room.) It is _this_ room to which I was
referring, not the L-shaped room.

    Far from showing that I have skipped over anything, it is Raven who
has misrepresented the Leuchter report, and proves yet again that nothing
he writes on the subject of the Holocaust can be trusted.


>He also managed somehow to skip
>over a passage three sentences after his "proof" sentence where Leuchter
>wrote: "Therefore it is the author's best engineering opinion that
>chambers No. 1 and No. 2 were never, and could not ever, be used as
>execution gas chambers. _None of the facilities at Majdanek are suitable,
>or were used, for execution purposes"_ (emphasis in original).

    However, all of the objections Leuchter raised relate to the use of
HCN (no sealant, the walkway was a gas trap, improper heater/circulator,
no vent or stack).  He has given no technical objection why CO could not
be used; all he says is that CO is not an execution gas.  Yet we know
that it was in fact used for execution in the euthanasia program. 
Therefore Leuchter gave no substantive objection to its use - it is a 
_policy_ objection, not a _technical_ one.

    To head off Raven's expected followup distortion, I will point out
that his statement that everyone would have suffocated before CO could
take effect (a medical, not an engineering opinion) appears under a
paragraph talking about "the additional alleged execution facilities of
Chelmno (gas vans), Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, and any others."

    However, even if he meant this to apply to Majdanek as well, this has
no bearing on whether an attempt was made to kill using CO and a facility
built consistent with this purpose.  Aiming a starter's pistol loaded with
blanks at someone and pulling the trigger is attempted murder _if_ the
shooter _believed_ it was a real gun with real bullets.  Similarly, 
building a facility with the clear purpose of gassing, even if it would 
have worked by a different mechanism than that envisioned by the 
designer, is still evidence of a plan or policy to kill with gas 
chambers, which was what Raven requested.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 21746 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: This is so simple (was Re: My challenge to the anti-revisionists: an update)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 19:04:28 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
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References: 
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greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> Many months ago, I asked for the anti-revisionists in alt.revisionism
> to tell me what they considered to be the best evidence that the Nazis
> had a plan or policy to exterminate millions of Jews in homicidal gas
> chambers.  Not only did no one respond substantively to this challenge,
> so far no one has even succeeded in producing evidence of a single
> homicidal gas chamber.

For those who haven't been with us since then -- we "anti-revisionists"
have turned up plenty of evidence of a Nazi policy to exterminate
millions of Jews.  However, Mr. Raven insists that the very same
evidence that proves the extermination plan exists must also cite the
means used to carry out that plan.

It's been explained to Mr. Raven many times that (1) this is arbitrary
and ridiculous, (2) the gas chambers as a means of killing were developed
as a response to inefficiencies with traditional means like shooting, and
thus cannot possibly be part of the "plan."  Mr. Raven continues to
ignore these facts and spout off at the mouth.

Later, Mr. Raven admitted that he would accept any "physical evidence"
of a chamber constructed specially to exterminate people, and that
after "physical evidence" was presented, he would accept testimony.
This is a strange set of rules to play by, but Mike Stein and I shrugged
our shoulders and cited Fred Leuchter's famous "Leuchter Report" to him.
You see, in that report, a well-known revisionist cites numerous examples
of physical evidence that turned up in his brief wanderings through the
camp.

So I enumerated these pieces of physical evidence (ten of them) and
brought them to Mr. Raven's attention.  I told him at the time that
I was only interested in whether his criteria for "physical evidence"
had been met.  To quote myself:

   Do you now agree, Mr. Raven, that we have some "physical evidence"
   for you?  If not, please explain why each of the ten items listed
   above is not physical evidence, and please give an example of what
   _would_ be physical evidence.
   
   Mind you, I'm not asking whether you _accept_ that this room is a
   gas chamber.  I'm sure you don't, and that's fine (for now).  Mr.
   Leuchter doesn't accept that it was a gas chamber, and that's fine
   too (for now).  I'm only interested in whether your criteria for
   "physical evidence" have been met.

That original article was emailed to Mr. Raven.

After I posted that article, I sent email to Mr. Raven pointing out
the key sentences in the above:

   I want an answer to one very specific question.  As I
   wrote in the original article:

      Do you now agree, Mr. Raven, that we have some "physical evidence"
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      for you?  If not, please explain why each of the ten items listed
      ^^^^^^^^
      above is not physical evidence, and please give an example of what
      _would_ be physical evidence.
   
      Mind you, I'm not asking whether you _accept_ that this room is a
      gas chamber.  I'm sure you don't, and that's fine (for now).  Mr.
      Leuchter doesn't accept that it was a gas chamber, and that's fine
      too (for now).  I'm only interested in whether your criteria for
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      "physical evidence" have been met.
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I wanted to be very sure he got the point, you see.

Three days later, having received no response, I wrote to him again:

   My concern is that you won't address what I'm asking and that I'll
   have to ask it again and make a nuisance of myself and we'll all
   have wasted a week.

As I explained in that email:

   Let me again try to describe exactly what I'm getting at -- no
   secrets here, I'm trying to make my agenda as plain as possible.  I
   consider openness and honesty friends of mine.
   
   What I'm trying to do is crack open a door you've slammed shut. 
   You've said that testimony is irrelevant unless physical evidence
   is available. Now, I think your reasoning there is a bit iffy,
   especially since you seem to have defined "physical evidence" to
   exclude the ruins of demolished gas chambers etc.  But I'm trying
   to play by your rules, if only for a few weeks or months, to see
   how far I can get.
   
   As I see it, the way you've set up the rules, there's a logical
   progression that has to be followed.  You don't want testimony to
   be considered unless there's _something_ physical that can back it
   up. And I can sort of see where you're coming from (though I think
   where you end up is bogus).  Let me spell out in a flowchart how I
   think you want the discussion to progress:
   
           (1) No physical evidence has been
           presented regarding Majdanek
                   |
                   |
                   V
           (2) Physical evidence is presented
                   |
                   |
                   V
           (3) Mr. Raven accepts this evidence
           as being physical evidence
                   |
                   |
                   V
           (4) Testimony is presented
                   |
                   |
                   V
           (5) The testimony and physical evidence
           and everything else is discussed
   
   (I'm not sure you expected stage (2), the presentation of the
   evidence, to ever happen.  But whether you expected it or not, it
   has.)
   
   What I'd like to do is proceed through this flowchart you've set
   up; in other words, to play by your rules.
   
   And since I've advanced to stage two, it's up to you to take us
   through stage three.  The ball's in your court.  Do you accept that
   the evidence I presented is physical evidence?  If you say yes,
   I'll proceed to stage four and present numerous testimonies, and
   then we can continue on to stage five.  (Note that I presented two
   testimonies and a court's conclusion about Majdanek in my article
   with the physical evidence. This was just for context, for the
   unenlightened reader who may not know what occurred -- or, as you'd
   say, what is alleged to have occurred -- at Majdanek.  I don't
   expect you to deal with those testimonies until we proceed on to
   stage five.  If it were just you and I talking, I would have left
   them out.)
   
   If you say no, they aren't physical evidence, well then, I'll ask
   you to explain why not, and we can discuss that further, and we'll
   stay stuck in stage two until we work that out.
   
   But what I'm asking you specifically to do is, please don't skip
   ahead to stage five -- general discussion of Majdanek -- without
   going through stages three and four.

I also received no answer to _that_ email.

And what was Mr. Raven's response to this physical evidence, the
physical evidence about which he's been asking for months now?  Well,
he didn't address the physical evidence at all.  He accused me of
having skipped over the part where Mr. Leuchter shared his opinion
about those chambers with us.  He wrote:

> [Jamie] completely
> skipped over a previously section in which Leuchter wrote, in reference to
> this chamber 1: "This room, clearly, was not an execution chamber and
> meets none of the described criteria." He also managed somehow to skip
> over a passage three sentences after his "proof" sentence where Leuchter
> wrote: "Therefore it is the author's best engineering opinion that
> chambers No. 1 and No. 2 were never, and could not ever, be used as
> execution gas chambers. _None of the facilities at Majdanek are suitable,
> or were used, for execution purposes"_ (emphasis in original).

You know, it's funny how I managed to "skip over" that latter passage
and yet post it to Usenet in my original article at the same time.
Go ahead and check, it may still be on your news server.  Its ID is
1995Jan10.225026.19216@hobbes.kzoo.edu.  I did see the first passage,
but since the summary said the same thing, I didn't bother citing it.

And it's even funnier how Mr. Raven didn't even try to answer my question.
One simple question.  Does the evidence which Mr. Leuchter presented
satisfy his criteria for "physical evidence"?  I don't care about
Leuchter's opinion (as I explained in the original article).  Leuchter
is wrong, as David Cole (an ex-revisionist) has just emphatically told
us, and as I will be happy to explain.

But I don't want to argue about Leuchter just yet.  I don't want to
argue about Majdanek as a whole.  I don't want to discuss which
testimonies are true and which false and what's a forgery.  Those are
stages four and five in my flowchart above.

All I want to do is for Mr. Raven to tell me, in one word, yes or no:
are the ten pieces of evidence which Mr. Leuchter uncovered "physical
evidence" according to Mr. Raven's criteria?

End of question!

As Mr. Raven would say, "this is so simple."

So why can't he answer a simple question?  Why, after a week, does he
come back and call me stupid for ignoring something (that I didn't
really ignore) and post the same old "soap story" twice more?

Well, I think I know -- because he knows he's been nailed.  He knows
that this evidence spells the beginning of the end for Mr. Raven on
alt.revisionism.  At this point, he either (1) admits that there _is_
physical evidence, and then (by his rules) he goes on to allow
discussion of the numerous testimonies about what happened at Majdanek,
or (2) he says the evidence doesn't qualify as physical evidence, and
thus makes it plain to everyone that his criteria are impossibly strict
and exclude absolutely everything.

So I'm going to follow through on my promise to make a nuisance of
myself by asking the question again:

   Do you now agree, Mr. Raven, that we have some "physical evidence"
   for you?  If not, please explain why each of the ten items listed
   above is not physical evidence, and please give an example of what
   _would_ be physical evidence.
   
   Mind you, I'm not asking whether you _accept_ that this room is a
   gas chamber.  I'm sure you don't, and that's fine (for now).  Mr.
   Leuchter doesn't accept that it was a gas chamber, and that's fine
   too (for now).  I'm only interested in whether your criteria for
   "physical evidence" have been met.

Yes or no?

Emailed to Mr. Raven.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program."  - Himmler
 "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long,
  drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches."                     - Raven


Article 21748 of alt.revisionism:
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From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: My challenge to the anti-revisionists: an update
Date: 24 Jan 1995 00:11:04 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3g1gio$8b@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <3g1bnf$r2o@access4.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk5-05.ix.netcom.com

In <3g1bnf$r2o@access4.digex.net> mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. 
Stein) writes: 

>    Well, I actually agree with Cole that the Leuchter Report is
>worthless, but Raven himself has repeatedly cited it as evidence.  Do 
Greg
>Raven and Ross Vicksell now agree that the report is worthless, or do 
they
>stand by their previous position that Leuchter is a fully qualified
>engineer expert in these matters?

Actually, I understand that Raven and Cole disagree on a lot of things. 
Pooh.Bah once appeared on the Morton Downey Jr. show with David Cole and 
off camera Cole made fun of Raven.  He especially detested Ravens lovely 
long pony tail.  "Real men don't wear pony tails" he sniffed to Pooh. 
Bah.
-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert  (I'm also on PRODIGY at GMHV19A@PRODIGY.COM)
"History is bunk!"    
                  Henry Ford
"Is there a Ford in your future?"
                  Ford Motor Company ad slogan
                 


Article 21750 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: My challenge to the anti-revisionists: an update
References:  <3g1bnf$r2o@access4.digex.net> <3g1gio$8b@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1995Jan27.234506.19897@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 23:45:06 GMT

In article <3g1gio$8b@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert) writes:

>Actually, I understand that Raven and Cole disagree on a lot of things. 
>Pooh.Bah once appeared on the Morton Downey Jr. show with David Cole and 
>off camera Cole made fun of Raven.  He especially detested Ravens lovely 
>long pony tail.  "Real men don't wear pony tails" he sniffed to Pooh. 
>Bah.

Poohbah also shredded David Cole's account of his Auschwitz visit
during this program, by reading a letter from Dr. Piper which made
it clear that Mr. Cole was a blatant liar.

Nothing new under the sun, is there, Annie?

-- 
          The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
   (For full file listing, send INDEX to listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca)
                     kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca
             Vancouver Island, British Columbia, CANADA


Article 21754 of alt.revisionism:
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From: poohbah@richmond.infi.net
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: My challenge to the anti-revisionists: an update
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 95 10:06:52 PDT
Organization: InfiNet
Lines: 30
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References: 
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X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage


In article , 
 writes:

> Many months ago, I asked for the anti-revisionists in alt.revisionism to
> tell me what they considered to be the best evidence that the Nazis had a
> plan or policy to exterminate millions of Jews in homicidal gas chambers.
> Not only did no one respond substantively to this challenge, so far no one
> has even succeeded in producing evidence of a single homicidal gas
> chamber.
>
>  [text deleted]
>
> In summary, months after making a challenge that should have been very
> simple to meet, if in fact the Holocaust extermination stories are
> correct, we see that those who most rabidly believe in the "gas chamber"
> stories have no substantive evidence to back up their claims.

Now, Greg, really...do you mean that?

The problem is that you follow the adage: "If you can't stand the heat, get out 
of the kitchen." Since the crematoria are much hotter than kitchens, as soon as 
there is any significant rebuttal to your "hit and run" postings, you 
mysteriously disappear.

Do you really want a repeat of what happened on GEnie to occur here?

I'm game if you are.




Article 21805 of alt.revisionism:
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From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler's order to exterminate Jews
Date: 28 Jan 1995 16:46:33 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 44
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3gdsd9$baf@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <3ftts9$q5r@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk4-24.ix.netcom.com

In  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com 
(Greg Raven) writes: 

>
>In article <3ftts9$q5r@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>, anny@ix.netcom.com 
(Annie
>Alpert) wrote:
>
>>      One stalwart argument trotted out by Holocaust deniers is that
>> Hitler never signed an order calling for extermination of Jews. 
>> This is not the case, as the following document plainly shows.
>
>Wow. Even Raul Hilberg, after devoting many years of his life to the 
study
>of the "Holocaust," somehow missed this document, and recanted his 
earlier
>position that there was not one but two Hitler orders to kill the Jews.
>Who needs context when we have scholarship such as this?
>
>-

What's your point, big guy?  Do you dispute that the document exists or 
that it was signed by Hilter?  I'm not Raul Hilberg.  Why drag him into 
this conversation?  If you think I'm wrong--prove it!

- 
>Greg Raven
>mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
>-----------------------------------------------------
>For free information about the IHR, write to:
ADDRESS DELETED
>Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
>The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 
shipping
>

By the way, Greg--you never responded to my note about the flaw in Butz' 
basic premise (see BUTZ BOO-BOO, previously posted and e-mailed)...yet 
you continue to hawk the book in your SIG file.  What's the story?  Are 
you hawking it IN SPITE of proven falsehoods or for another reason?
-- 
Annie Alpert
"History is bunk" --Henry Ford

Article 21811 of alt.revisionism:
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From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: My challenge to the anti-revisionists: an update
Date: 28 Jan 1995 16:59:48 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3gdt64$bfg@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <3g1bnf$r2o@access4.digex.net> <3g1gio$8b@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <1995Jan27.234506.19897@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk4-24.ix.netcom.com

In <1995Jan27.234506.19897@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca 
(Ken Mcvay) writes: 

>
>In article <3g1gio$8b@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie 
Alpert) writes:
>
>>Actually, I understand that Raven and Cole disagree on a lot of 
things. 
>>Pooh.Bah once appeared on the Morton Downey Jr. show with David Cole 
and 
>>off camera Cole made fun of Raven.  He especially detested Ravens 
lovely 
>>long pony tail.  "Real men don't wear pony tails" he sniffed to Pooh. 
>>Bah.
>
>Poohbah also shredded David Cole's account of his Auschwitz visit
>during this program, by reading a letter from Dr. Piper which made
>it clear that Mr. Cole was a blatant liar.
>
>Nothing new under the sun, is there, Annie?
>

True.  She ran over him like a Mack truck.  He never knew what hit 
him.  Funny, I never saw an account of that in the JHR...or did I miss 
it?
-- 
Annie Alpert
"History is bunk" --Henry Ford

Article 21904 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Inside the "gas chambers" with Fred Leuchter
Date: 31 Jan 1995 22:23:02 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <3gmd86$b2q@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

I see that Greg Raven has finally reached the state of Gannonism,
that is, posting old nonsense (that even most deniers have stopped
quoting) - again, and again, and again.

Here are, once more, some of the major flaws in the "Leuchter 
report".

1) He claims the SS men pouring the Zyklon-B into the gas
   chambers would die when the HCN rose towards them. This is,
   of course, ridiculous. These people used gas masks, just
   like those who used the Zyklon for other purposes. 

   That a "gas chamber expert" couldn't figure this out is
   quite incredible.
   
2) Leuchter states (and this is true) that there are less cyanide
   traces on the walls of the gas chambers than on the walls of
   the delousing chambers. However, this is simply because delousing
   takes far longer than homicidal gassing, and the HCN gas had
   more time to interact with the walls. Also, the gas chambers
   were partially destroyed and their walls exposed to the elements
   for 40 years before Leuchter took his samples.

3) Leuchter "proves" that no one would be able to use HCN gas
   in the gas chamber of Krema I. A few pages later, he states
   that gas was indeed used there, as there are still traces
   on the walls.

There are many more, but this is enough to prove that the
"report" by the "engineer" (he-he) Fred Leuchter is devoid of
any value. For someone to keep posting this rubbish again and 
again only proves how desperate and incapable he is.


-Danny Keren.

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