From oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!earth.usa.net!earth!hkatz Sun Apr 2 05:45:43 PDT 1995 Article: 23372 of alt.revisionism Xref: oneb alt.politics.white-power:650 alt.revisionism:23372 Path: oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!earth.usa.net!earth!hkatz From: hkatz@earth (Harry Katz) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Funny fact of the jewish boycott prior to WWII! Followup-To: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism Date: 30 Mar 1995 21:54:57 GMT Organization: Large Lines: 26 Distribution: World Message-ID: <3lf9bh$ib3@earth.usa.net> References:NNTP-Posting-Host: earth.usa.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] In article , Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) writes: From what I can gather, none of the Jewish boycotts against Germany (which started in 1933) had much adverse effect on the Germans or the German economy. So much for the theory that Jews control global politics and that Jews were strangling Germany's pre-war economy! It could hardly have failed to leave a bitter taste however, and it was probably one of the many things that later created friction between the Germans and the Jews. Mr. Raven has his timetable slightly confused. The call for a boycott of German products was a reaction to the Third Reich's mistreatment of German Jews, not vice versa. In fact, German Jews opposed the boycott for fear of exacerbating an already bad situation. -- Harry Katz He that hires one garden will eat birds; he that hires many gardens, the birds will eat him. -- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed. From oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news3.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail Mon Apr 3 06:10:12 PDT 1995 Article: 23405 of alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news3.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Revisionism: Frequently (Un-)answered Questions Date: 30 Mar 1995 23:55:30 -0500 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 207 Message-ID: <3lg202$39j@access4.digex.net> References: <20MAR95.17787159.0205@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net In article , Greg Raven wrote: >Testimony may be worthwhile to have, but it is not the best evidence ... >certainly not when it contradicts physical laws. Note that Mr. Raven fails to mention what physical laws have been contradicted by what testimonies; he merely asserts this is so by implication. >> 2. What physical evidence would you accept as proof for the >> existance of a functional gas chamber? > >Assuming you mean a functional Nazi homicidal gas chamber, we would accept >the chamber itself, photos of the chamber, or plans or drawings. Mr. Raven has repeatedly dodged the question of what evidence proves that a thing _was_ a functional Nazi gas chamber, a photo _is_ a photo of a functional Nazi homicidal gas chamber rather than just some random room, a drawing or plan _is_ a genuine plan of one, not a Soviet forgery or an innocent room which someone has falsely called a gas chamber. He has also dodged the question of what standard of proof is to be used. >> 5. If the eyewitness accounts of mass murder are in fact false, who >> coordinated all the witnesses so they would tell, essentially, the >> same story? > >They do not all tell the same story. Note that Mr. Raven ignored the word "essentially." Note that he provides no evidence, only an assertion. >> 6. Why did Hoess confirm his evidence that he had presented to the >> International Military Tribunals *after* he had been sentenced to >> death, thus having no benefit to himself? > >Well, he did have a family, and his family was threatened. Another assertion without evidence. >> 14. What proof does Fred Leuchter have to support his assertion he >> dealt with several prisons whose wardens state that he had never in >> fact dealt with them? > >I am not privy to Leuchter's files. There is at least one magazine article >and at least one television show about Leuchter that show that he has had >contact with prison wardens, and has done work for prisons. Utterly irrelevant, of course, to the question of whether Leuchter lied about working for the two specific wardens referred to in the Zundel trial. >I would add >that Leuchter is a simple and honest man, and I can't imagine him lying. I don't see why not; Mr. Raven has a very active imagination. >> 17. If the truth is on your side, why are there so many examples of >> revisionists repeating statements they know to be false, editing >> quotes and taking them out of context and avoiding, ignoring or >> pretending they did not see certain questions put to them? > >Argumentative. I might ask the same thing about anti-revisionists. Mr. Raven provides no examples, only insinuation. Mr. Raven's own intellectual dishonesty in this regard has been thoroughly exposed. Specifically, he has taken quotes from Arno Mayer out of context, used quotes from Deborah Lipstadt and Christopher Browning out of context, altered a quote from Himmler to make it more favorable, and paraphrased a comment by Pressac in a totally distorted and dishonest manner. All of these have been previously posted; if anyone wishes to see the evidence again, just ask. >> 18. Why do revisionists, in the same articles protesting people >> making money off the Holocaust, place ads for books and other >> paraphenalia that are making money off the Holocaust? > >I have no idea what you are talking about. Really? From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Let's hear both sides Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 23:10:29 -0800 Message-ID: THE HOLOCAUST: Let's Hear Both Sides By Mark Weber [...] For many Jews, the Holocaust has become both a flourishing business and a ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ kind of new religion, as noted Jewish author and newspaper publisher Jacobo Timerman points out in his book, The Longest War. He reports that many Israelis, using the word Shoah, which is Hebrew for Holocaust, joke that "There's no business like Shoah business." (note 14) [...] The IHR publishes numerous revisionist books, tapes and other materials, as well as the bimonthly Journal of Historical Review. Send $2 for a packet of literature and full listing of books. Or, order more copies of this leaflet, postpaid, at the following prices: 10 copies: $2.00 -- 50 copies: $5.00 100 copies or more 8 cents each [...] The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40 The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping >> 19. If Himmler, in his speech at Posen in 1943, did not explicitely >> state they were murdering people on a large scale then what was he >> talking about, even though native German speakers and dictionaries >> dating back well before the 1940s all agree that the words he used >> meant extermination? > >This is a complex question that cannot be dealt with in a couple >sentences. Regardless of what Himmler does or does not mean in his speech, >it is beyond question that he does not mention 'gas chambers.' Yet, this >speech was presented to me as proof that the Nazis had built homicidal gas >chambers in which to murder Jews. This is false, and this has been explained before. The speech was presented as proof of a policy of killing Jews, period. Why this was done is explained below one more time. >From mstein@access.digex.net Mon Apr 25 17:31:33 EDT 1994 From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Can we talk? Date: 21 Apr 1994 20:35:00 -0400 Message-ID: <2p763k$19p@access2.digex.net> References: <2p2a1i$ff0@kaiwan.kaiwan.com> Greg Raven wrote: >Second, here is what Holocaust revisionists REALLY say: The Jews of Europe >suffered a great tragedy before and during the Second World War. Many were >mistreated, and many died under horrific conditions. However, a) there is ^^^^^^^^ >no evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy of exterminating the Jews, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >b) there is no evidence that there were homicidal gas chambers for murder >Jews, and c) the figure of six million Jewish victims is an exaggeration. [...] >I imagine that some of you will take exception to at least some of these >statements. What I ask from those who do is simply this: Provide me with >what you think is the one or two best pieces of evidence that the Nazis had >a plan to exterminate millions of Jews in homicidal gas chambers. Once you >provide what you think is the best evidence, I will respond. Well, I have two problems with *this* part of what you say. First, I myself have never believed that there was, as you put it, "a plan to exterminate millions of Jews in homicidal gas chambers." I don't know anyone who does. I believe there was an intent formulated by specific Nazis at the highest levels of the German government (who thus had the power to see that the intent was carried out, and used that power to that end) to exterminate millions of Jews. Gassing in fixed installations - what can fairly be called gas chambers, some of which used Zyklon-B and some of which used CO - was adopted as one means by some people involved in carrying out the plan. Others involved in carrying out the plan used shooting, starvation, mobile CO gassing vans, burning alive, bayoneting - whatever happened to be convenient to get the job done. So you are setting up a strawman. Note that previously, Greg Raven asserted that there was no policy of exterminating Jews _at all_. The Himmler speech is one of many pieces of evidence to the contrary, and was only presented as such. Raven's attempts to claim that it was intended as proof of gas chambers as well is false, and by now he should know it is false. However, I cannot prove he is lying, since he frequently claims never to have seen articles (and deletes email copies of articles unread, or claims to, in order to preserve his ability to claim that he never saw the refutation of his falsehoods). >Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) >Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr Jamie McCarthy's web page points to Greg Raven's. However, despite repeated requests, Mr. Raven has never returned the courtesy. What is Greg Raven afraid of? -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. From oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!kfilan Mon Apr 10 13:14:36 PDT 1995 Article: 23705 of alt.revisionism Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!kfilan From: kfilan@netcom.com (kevin filan) Subject: Questions for Greg Raven Message-ID: Cc: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) Distribution: World Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 11:37:56 GMT Lines: 61 Sender: kfilan@netcom12.netcom.com Dear Mr. Raven: I have been following "alt.revisionism" for some time now. So far, it seems that you are one of the most intelligent and reasonable "revisionists" posting here. I deplore the constant bickering and name-calling which is a staple of this newsgroup (and am the first to admit that the "exterminationists" can be as guilty of this as the rest) and would like to see, for a change, a little _reasoned_ discussion. With that in mind, here are a few questions. While I am addressing them to you, I am aware that there are differences among revisionists. You can't (and probably wouldn't want to!) speak for everyone, but I would be interested in your personal opinion on these matters. 1) Revisionists seem to believe that the commonly accepted death figures for the Holocaust (around 6 million Jews, about that many non-Jewish "undesirables") are exaggerated. What, based on your estimates, would be a more accurate figure? I'm not asking for an exact number, mind you... merely a general estimate. If you could include the reasons you would feel this number is more accurate that the "Six Million" figure, I'd appreciate it. 2) The pre-war Jewish population of Poland is estimated at anywhere between 2 million and 3.5 million. Today's Jewish population of Poland is only a few thousand. Do you have any idea where all these Jews went, if they were not killed? (You will forgive me for stating that I find the "they're all behind the Iron Curtain" argument to be somewhat less than convincing, especially as none of them have shown up now that the Iron Curtain has fallen). 3) You've said that some Rabbis welcomed the Nuremburg Laws, as they prohibited intermarriage. Can you give me some specific examples of this? (i.e. some quotes from some Rabbinical organizations) 4) I've gathered (and again, correct me if I'm wrong) that you feel the stories of Nazi atrocities against Jews were overstated. What, in your best estimation, _was_ life like for a Jew living in World War II Europe? The "conventional wisdom" suggests that it was very hard indeed; can you give me an example of some Jews who went through the war suffering no more than, say, their Gentile neighbors? I apologize for not having researched this matter more fully; unfortunately, present constraints on my time and lack of a Web Browser (I suspect I'm the only person in cyberspace who's still using a 286!) make this difficult. Again, thank you for your time, and have a good day. (posted and E-mailed) Peace Kevin Filan -- ________________________________________________________________ Kevin Filan * P.O. Box 231582 kfilan@netcom.com * Old Statehouse Station Rakshasa PODSnet, FidoNet, IRC * Hartford, CT 06123 ________________________________________________________________ "Toto... I don't think we're in Kansas anymore..." From oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.pop.psu.edu!hudson.lm.com!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan009.kaiwan.com!user Mon Apr 17 05:53:12 PDT 1995 Article: 24189 of alt.revisionism Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:24189 alt.religion.scientology:9826 Path: oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.pop.psu.edu!hudson.lm.com!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan009.kaiwan.com!user From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.scientology Subject: Re: Scientology=SCAM! Date: 16 Apr 1995 03:43:39 GMT Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <1995Apr15.221318.28550@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com In article <1995Apr15.221318.28550@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) wrote: > In article bf221@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Rick Knight) writes: > > >Didn't L.Ron Hubbard(the founder of scientology) bet a group of his friends > >that he could create a new religion? He based his confidence in his > >ability to do this on his understanding of the average person's stupidity > >and willingness to believe what they are told without question as long as > >it's fashionable. He based his new religion on the fashionable new-age > >movement and included themes such as the paranormal and aliens to attract > >all the fools out there in TV land. My hat's off to Mr Hubbard! > > Yes, indeed - and Scientologists are now firmly in control of the > Institute for Historical Review, perpetrating yet another massive > scam. Your information about the IHR is as faulty as your information about Holocaust extermination claims. Scientologists are not in control -- firm or otherwise -- of the IHR. -- Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at: P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659 From oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.pop.psu.edu!hudson.lm.com!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan009.kaiwan.com!user Mon Apr 17 05:53:13 PDT 1995 Article: 24190 of alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.pop.psu.edu!hudson.lm.com!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan009.kaiwan.com!user From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: All revisionists please read! Date: 16 Apr 1995 03:47:13 GMT Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3mn0kq$if0@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <3motko$dot@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3mpdci$1csg@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com In article <3mpdci$1csg@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote: > Figures for camp registrations are irrelevant for determining the numbers > killed at the camps. Most of the victims were moved directly from the trains > to the gas without registration. Are you saying that the absence of proof is proof, or do you have some way of counting these uncounted victims that you have not shared? -- Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at: P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659 From oneb!kmcvay Mon Apr 17 05:57:10 PDT 1995 Article: 24200 of alt.revisionism Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:24200 alt.religion.scientology:9832 Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.scientology Path: oneb!kmcvay From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) Subject: Re: Scientology=SCAM! References: <1995Apr15.221318.28550@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac Message-ID: <1995Apr17.125505.12272@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 95 12:55:05 GMT In article greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes: >Your information about the IHR is as faulty as your information about >Holocaust extermination claims. Scientologists are not in control -- firm >or otherwise -- of the IHR. I'm certainly glad to hear you say that, Mr. Raven. May I assume then that neither you nor Mr. Weber are, as reported elsewhere, members of the Church of Scientology? -- The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource (For full file listing, send INDEX to listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca) kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca http://www.island.net/~kmcvay/rue/RUE1-HomePage.html From oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz Tue Apr 18 08:34:22 PDT 1995 Article: 24214 of alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: All revisionists please read! Date: 17 Apr 1995 15:28:21 GMT Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3mu1el$kui@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <3mn0kq$if0@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <3motko$dot@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3mpdci$1csg@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu In article , Greg Raven wrote: >Are you saying that the absence of proof is proof, or do you have some way >of counting these uncounted victims that you have not shared? Have you considered actually reading Hilberg's or Dawidowicz's books, in which they explain in detail how they derived their figures, or would that be too much trouble? Richard Schultz From oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.pop.psu.edu!hudson.lm.com!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan009.kaiwan.com!user Tue Apr 18 23:50:38 PDT 1995 Article: 24236 of alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.pop.psu.edu!hudson.lm.com!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan009.kaiwan.com!user From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The closing of Marco Polo magazine in Japan. Date: 16 Apr 1995 03:51:04 GMT Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <3mfvhi$5pm@inforamp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com In article <3mfvhi$5pm@inforamp.net>, frntline@inforamp.net wrote: > lippard@Primenet.Com (James J. Lippard) wrote: > > > > > >[The following is posted on behalf of Michael Shermer, > >publisher of _Skeptic_ magazine (shermer@skeptic.com). > >-jjl] > > > >Subject: The closing of Marco Polo magazine in Japan. > >From: Michael Shermer, Skeptic magazine > > Personaly I have never heard of either one, however... > > >I suspect I do not have anything close to the full > >story and would like to know what anyone out there in > >cyberspace has on this so we can accurately report on > >it in Skeptic magazine. > > If the conclusion you come to is controversial,will YOU publish > it? The full story behind the closing of Marco Polo magazine can be found in the March/April Journal of Historical Review. Anyone wishing to get background information on this incident can get a 30-page documentation package from the IHR in exchange for a $20 donation. -- Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) Or, come visit my home page at http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr The Institute for Historical Review can be reached at: P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659 From oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!world!bzs Tue Apr 18 23:50:39 PDT 1995 Article: 24237 of alt.revisionism Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: All revisionists please read! In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of 16 Apr 1995 03:47:13 GMT Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: <3mn0kq$if0@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <3motko$dot@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3mpdci$1csg@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 04:10:14 GMT Lines: 34 From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) >jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote: > >> Figures for camp registrations are irrelevant for determining the numbers >> killed at the camps. Most of the victims were moved directly from the trains >> to the gas without registration. > >Are you saying that the absence of proof is proof, or do you have some way >of counting these uncounted victims that you have not shared? Don't be so disingenuous, offering an incomplete count of camp registrations as an upper-bound on the number of deaths in that camp is flawed evidence for the reason described. He wasn't trying to prove anything, per se, the person who offered the camp registration numbers was trying to prove something. He just pointed out that the evidence offered was crap (to make that particular point, it might be useful in some other context.) And it is. Rather than an upper-bound it would seem to suggest evidence towards some lower-bound. Quite a different thing. For someone who makes his entire living off of disputing evidence, and with virtually none of your own, this was a pretty cheap shot even for you. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD From oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news Tue Apr 18 23:50:40 PDT 1995 Article: 24246 of alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: All revisionists please read! Date: 16 Apr 1995 08:48:49 GMT Organization: University of Alberta Lines: 43 Message-ID: <3mqllh$fj0@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca> References: <3mn0kq$if0@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <3motko$dot@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3mpdci$1csg@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: lydgate.remote.ualberta.ca X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.14 In article , greg.ihr@kaiwan.com says... > >In article <3mpdci$1csg@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>, >jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote: > >> Figures for camp registrations are irrelevant for determining the numbers >> killed at the camps. Most of the victims were moved directly from the trains >> to the gas without registration. > >Are you saying that the absence of proof is proof, or do you have some way >of counting these uncounted victims that you have not shared? No. Don Van Handel quoted the camp registrations as if they were meaningful in and of themselves. I assert only that by themselves they prove nothing about the numbers of victims. Nevertheless, I assume that you, as a professional historian for the IHR, are aware of the more important studies of the Holocaust and the resources used to arrive at the numbers that they do. Among these resources are the SS reports on the activities of the Einsatzgruppen, the Korherr report, the records of the transports to the extermination camps, and census information. On the matter of census information, I note in passing that I have taken on the task of marking up the IHR's "66 Questions and Answers" for Ken McVay's forthcoming Nizkor web pages. Perhaps you could explain how it is that you assert in question 1 that there are no credible demographic statistics for the numbers of Jews in Nazi-controlled Europe, yet in question 15 you assert, in one version of the questions, that there were less than 4 million and, in another version, that there were less than 6 million. Are we to assume from this that you have used *in*credible demographic statistics? Or are we to assume that you have found that there are some useful demographic statistics upon which to base an estimate of the numbers of victims? -- John Morris at University of Alberta -- While on the Web, why not visit: The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource (For full file listing, send INDEX to listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca) kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca http://www.island.net/~kmcvay/rue/RUE1-HomePage.html From oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.starnet.net!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!kfilan Tue Apr 18 23:50:41 PDT 1995 Article: 24273 of alt.revisionism Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.starnet.net!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!kfilan From: kfilan@netcom.com (kevin filan) Subject: Re: All revisionists please read! Message-ID: Cc: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <3mn0kq$if0@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <3motko$dot@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3mpdci$1csg@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 16:26:58 GMT Lines: 60 Sender: kfilan@netcom12.netcom.com In article , Greg Raven wrote: > >Are you saying that the absence of proof is proof, or do you have some way >of counting these uncounted victims that you have not shared? A good question. I too am curious as to how these estimates can be drawn. I suspect you could use the records of Jews "deported" from various areas into the camps, and compare this with the number of camp "survivors" after liberation. However, there may be other ways, and I look forward to hearing them from the members of this group. While we're on the subject, here are a few other questions: you were probably busy and missed them last time, so I can repost them. 1) Prior to World War II, there was a large Jewish population in Poland. (Estimates range from 2.5 to 3.5 million). Today the Jewish population of Poland is only a few thousands. Where did these Jews go? (One wag suggested "New York and Miami Beach;" I posted the U.S. immigration figures for 1936-45 and showed that would be an impossibility. Another correspondent of mine suggested they are in Argentina: since there are only 350,000 Jews in Argentina, I think we will have to look elsewhere). The most common response is that they are all "behind the Iron Curtain." The Iron Curtain no longer exists... why have not these Jews come forward en masse? What is your explanation for this "lack of Jews" in Poland? 2) You've stated that some Rabbis welcomed the Nuremburg laws because they prohibited intermarriage. Could you give me some citation which suggests this? I'm not saying by any means that you are wrong; it's merely that this seems somewhat unusual to me. 3) I've gathered you think Nazi excesses against the Jews have been exaggerated. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). If so, what do you think is a _true_ example of Jewish life in World War II Europe? What would a typical Jewish family living in the Reich have gone through during the period 1936-1945? 4) What to you would constitute "physical evidence" that a drawing of a gas chamber was indeed a drawing of a gas chamber, that a photo of a gas chamber was indeed genuine, or that a room had in fact been used for gassing "undesirables" and not for delousing? 5) What is your opinion of the various neo-Nazis and anti-Semites who have begun supporting the cause of "Holocaust revisionism?" I await your response (and the response of other Revisionists here) and wish you a happy Easter. Peace Kevin Filan -- ________________________________________________________________ Kevin Filan * P.O. Box 231582 kfilan@netcom.com * Old Statehouse Station Rakshasa PODSnet, FidoNet, IRC * Hartford, CT 06123 ________________________________________________________________ "Toto... I don't think we're in Kansas anymore..." From oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!pipex!news.sprintlink.net!news.dgsys.com!DGS.dgsys.com!alerma Wed Apr 19 07:17:51 PDT 1995 Article: 24320 of alt.revisionism Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:24320 alt.religion.scientology:9907 Path: oneb!news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!pipex!news.sprintlink.net!news.dgsys.com!DGS.dgsys.com!alerma From: alerma@dgsys.com (alerma) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.scientology Subject: Re: Scientology=SCAM! Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.scientology Date: 17 Apr 1995 20:31:09 GMT Organization: Digital Gateway Systems Lines: 47 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3muj6d$2gc@news.dgsys.com> References: <1995Apr15.221318.28550@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <1995Apr17.125505.12272@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: dgs.dgsys.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Ken Mcvay (kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca) wrote: : In article greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes: : >Your information about the IHR is as faulty as your information about : >Holocaust extermination claims. Scientologists are not in control -- firm : >or otherwise -- of the IHR. : I'm certainly glad to hear you say that, Mr. Raven. May I assume : then that neither you nor Mr. Weber are, as reported elsewhere, : members of the Church of Scientology? : -- : The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource : (For full file listing, send INDEX to listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca) : kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca : http://www.island.net/~kmcvay/rue/RUE1-HomePage.html A fellow named Marcellus, an Feild Staff member for the Cof$, worked his way into the confidence of Willis Carto, the Chairman of liberty lobby, which ran the IHR. Marcellus spent 13 years gaining Willis' confidence. Marcellus brought some friends into IHR who were member of Cof$. At an opportune point in the litigion surrounding control of IHR, Marcellus offerred himself as a 'disinterested' party who could be named in control of IHR, as a caretaker whilst the court concluded its business. In a blink of the eye, Marcellus went from trusted friend of Mr Carto, to enemy, as he took control of IHR for someones ends... - Is it just circumstantial that Marcellus was a Scientologist, a Field Staff Member, or was MArcellus acting as a mole for another octupus like group - the OSA of the Cof$? Marcellus's known involement with Cof$ created a need for him to very recently 'publicly resign from IHR'... But what about his buddies? The whole scene here stinks of OSA tactics.. But then, this is only this observers opinion. Truth becomes quite malleable in the hands of those adept at PR manipulation. Arnie Lerma
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