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Article 21052 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EIGHT MONTHS of Myopia: The Article Raven Can't Read...
Date: Fri, 06 Jan 1995 08:22:30 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 19
Message-ID: 
References: <1995Jan04.090508.8570@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

I can see why you have kept this post hidden from me ... most of it avoids
answering my challenge. At least two of the items, the Franke-Gricksche
report and the Hoess testimonies, are completely worthless.

However, I have saved this post to my local disk and will respond to each
point, not counting the personal attacks and references at the beginning
of it.

By the way, the posting seems truncated. Are you sure it is all here?

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping

Article 21056 of alt.revisionism:
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From: chip@cybernetics.net (Chip Salzenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EIGHT MONTHS of Myopia: The Article Raven Can't Read...
Date: 6 Jan 1995 16:58:16 GMT
Organization: Creative Cybernetics, Inc.
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <3ejsr8$736@jabba.cybernetics.net>
References: <1995Jan04.090508.8570@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
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According to greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven):
>I can see why you have kept this post hidden from me ...

"Hidden?"  Heh.  Hehe.  BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Holocaust denial isn't funny.  But deniers often are.

>At least two of the items, the Franke-Gricksche report and the
>Hoess testimonies, are completely worthless.

Why?
-- 
              Chip Salzenberg, aka 
  "Don't move!"  *BANG*  "You have the right to remain silent!"  *BANG!*
    "Anything you say can and will be used against you!"  *SPLASH*
               -- Tom Servo, MST3K: "High School Bigshot"


Article 21062 of alt.revisionism:
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From: choover@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Christopher Hoover)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EIGHT MONTHS of Myopia: The Article Raven Can't Read...
Date: 6 Jan 1995 14:05:58 -0700
Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept.
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <3ekbbm$jm0@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
References: <1995Jan04.090508.8570@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
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X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV)

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>I can see why you have kept this post hidden from me ... most of it avoids
>answering my challenge. At least two of the items, the Franke-Gricksche
>report and the Hoess testimonies, are completely worthless.

Amazing.  Utterly incredible.  You might need to revise your ranking
system, Jamie--looks like this post pushes this particular "error" _well_
over a rating of 3.0.  To the new reader of alt.revisionism, I imagine
it's difficult to ascertain just how decietful and disingenuous this post
from Mr. Raven is.  Needless to say, Mr. Raven's claims that the article
has been kept "hidden" from him are made of whole cloth.  Having watched
Mr. Raven dodge this issue for several months, all I can say is that this
claim is a new low, even for him.
 
The May 4th article has been e-mailed to Mr. Raven.  It has been posted
_thirteen times_, if memory serves, in the last nine months.  And not only
has Mr. Raven pretended never to see it, he now takes it a step farther by
presuming that he can get away with claiming that the post has been
deliberately "kept hidden from him"--thus proving the adage, I suppose,
that the best place to hide something is in plain sight.
 
Or perhaps Mr. Raven flashed to the notion that sooner or later, one of us
was going to send the article to him via registered mail, at which point
he'd have to stop pretending he'd never seen it.  I have to wonder whether
_anyone_ on this newsgroup actually believes Mr. Raven's ridiculous
claims, including his friends.  How about it, Messrs. Vicksell, Doyal,
Kleim, Smith, McCarthy (Tim), Hoffman, etc.?  Do you actually believe Mr.
Raven's claim that the May 4th article has been "kept hidden?" 
 
Whatever the case, I'm guessing that this means Mr. Raven will now move on
to his peculiar historiographic notion that "testimony is not evidence" to
casually dismiss much of the article with a wave of his hand.  In
September, I posted a lenghty analysis of this curious philosophy,
demonstrating that it clearly has _no_ historiographic validity.  A couple
of weeks ago, I reposted the article.  So far, Mr. Raven hasn't even
deigned to acknowledge its existence, let alone to get to the more
advanced stage of claiming that he's never seen it because it's been
"hidden" from him.  Tell me now, Mr. Raven, so I can mark a few more
scheduled repostings on my calendar, if necessary:  will you wait until
I've hidden my article in plain sight thirteen times before you'll respond
to _it_?
 
Surely, you understand my curiousity on this particular point.

>However, I have saved this post to my local disk and will respond to each
>point, not counting the personal attacks and references at the beginning
>of it.

We can't wait.  I imagine, however, that we shall have to....

>By the way, the posting seems truncated. Are you sure it is all here?

If you've never seen the May 4th article before now, Mr. Raven, then what 
exactly is your point of reference against which it "seems truncated?"  
Curious, that.


Chris
-- 
Christopher J. Hoover    choover@nyx.cs.du.edu     Kibo flavor:  Unlisted
Disclaimer:  standard    It's *always* September, *somewhere* on the Net.


Article 21084 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: EIGHT MONTHS of Myopia: The Article Raven Can't Read...
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Fri, 06 Jan 1995 08:22:30 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <1995Jan04.090508.8570@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
	
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 22:44:11 GMT
Lines: 151


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>At least two of the items, the Franke-Gricksche
>report and the Hoess testimonies, are completely worthless.

We've already heard why Mr Raven believes the Franke-Gricksche report
is "nonsense" and pretty well determined that it's Mr Raven who is
nonsense and completely worthless.

Here are some samples:

RAVEN>Just how big is this house that it has
RAVEN>elevators for hundreds of dead people?
>
>Huh? What's your objection here exactly? It didn't say it took them
>all up on one trip. Is that what you are trying to make people believe
>it said? That the "hundreds of dead people" were brought up in one
>trip?

RAVEN>Is it normal for large Polish houses
RAVEN>to have ten large crematories?
>
>Huh? Ok, F-G starts with:
>
>  "..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered
>
>
>So now you claim that this "house" is some sort of residence? Is that
>what you are reading into this? Why? What's the 1943 common German
>colloquial use of a word like Haus or grosse Haus (pardon my German)
>in a military bureaucratic context?

RAVEN>1) The "large house" is actually Krema II at Birkenau.
RAVEN>2) There are not 5 or 6 steps into the Leichenkeller, but 10.
>
>Oh gasp, I'm sure this is what F-G was trying to get absolutely
>accurate, whether there were 5 or 6 or rather 10 steps.
>...
>I could understand if there were no steps, if the steps went up rather
>than down, if there were 100 steps (or some number that couldn't
>possibly be remembered as 5 or 6) but this is hardly a quibble.

RAVEN>3) There are not 3 pillars inside the "gas chamber" but 4.
>
>Again, that there are roughly this many "pillars" would seem
>confirming rather than denying. Do you think he could come up with
>this many details which are so close to an accurate description out of
>thin air?

R>4) The "doors" cannot be closed when there is only one door involved.
R>5) There is no door to open "on the other side" because again there is only
R>one door.
>
>   A few minutes later, the door opens
>   on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then
>
>You're making a lot out of a particular reading of those words
>originally written in German, how about:
>
>	the door opens...on the other side where the elevator is
>	located.
>
>that is, "on the other side" refers to where the elevator is, not the
>door. Reasonable? I think so.

R>6) The lift does not take the corpses to the first floor, but to the ground
R>floor.
>
>This term is used differently in different countries. Americans call
>the "ground floor" the "first floor". The British call the "first
>floor" what Americans call the second floor and use the terminology
>"ground floor" for what Americans generally (tho not always) call the
>first floor. Etc. You'll have to be more specific, like what does a
>German call it? ErdgeschoB, right? I'm hardly expert on this but my
>German dictionary seems to indicate that the Germans use the American
>usage and indicate this is what the British call etc etc.

R>9) The capacity of Krema II was not 10,000 per 24 hours, but rather 4,756
R>for all FIVE crematoria combined, and even this is a theoretical output
R>"that was never achieved in 1943, as proved by the Krematorium coke
R>consumption." Pressac calls this claim "another Auschwitz SS propaganda
R>figure passed on by Franke-Gricksch."
>
>Fine, sounds reasonable to me, F-G exagerrated a bit to impress the
>boss. Or whoever gave him the information did. As you say F-G was only
>there 2 days, he hardly had time to verify these exact numbers for
>himself.
>
>But it would be quite a leap to go from that observation to the
>conclusion that ZERO were gassed.

R>1) He fails to explain how the Sonderkommando members could have resisted
R>the lingering Zyklon B gas as they went to work hauling bodies from the gas
R>chamber, removing gold teeth, etc., only "a few minutes" after the
R>killings.
>
>Rubber gloves and cheap gas masks and decent ventilation. Really quite
>minor.

R>4) Pressac ignores the Report's mention of a "special rail track into an
R>area of the camp specifically set aside for this purpose." Although there
R>was a rail spur into Birkenau, work was not begun on it until January,
R>1944. (This single reference, by the way, is enough by itself to show that
R>this document is almost certainly a post-war forgery.)
>
>I don't see any mention of a rail track in the quote I have.

>And the quote I have has nothing about removing gold teeth etc


The report in question, for reference:

  "..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered
   from outside.  They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, 
   well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined 
   with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and 
   the benches are numbered.  The prisoners are told that they are to 
   be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments.  They must therefore 
   completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
   disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
   clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
   be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
   proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through 
   a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
   shower bath.  In this room are three large pillars, into which
   certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room.
   When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room,
   the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are
   dropped down into the pillars.  As soon as the containers touch 
   the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put
   the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens
   on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then
   the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first
   floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh
   corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed
   for the whole process.)  The job itself is performed by Jewish
   prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
      The results of this `resettlement action' to date: 500,000 Jews
   Current capacity of the `resettlement action' ovens: 10,000
   in twenty-four hours."
                  --from report entitled "Resettlement of Jews"
                    written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch
                    for SS-Col. M. von Herff and RF-SS H. Himmler, after
                    inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.  This
                    excerpt from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by
                    Gerald Fleming, ISBN 0-520-05103-3.
-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD

Article 21136 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EIGHT MONTHS of Myopia: The Article Raven Can't Read...
Date: 8 Jan 1995 23:00:16 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <3eqccg$5mg@access1.digex.net>
References: <1995Jan04.090508.8570@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>I can see why you have kept this post hidden from me

    We were really sneaky about it, too.  We hid it in several places, 
including the last place Greg would ever think to look - his mailbox.  In 
fact, that trick worked so well that we hid it there several times.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.

Article 21155 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: EIGHT MONTHS of Myopia: The Article Raven Can't Read...
References: <1995Jan04.090508.8570@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  <3eqccg$5mg@access1.digex.net>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1995Jan10.232436.728@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 95 23:24:36 GMT

In article <3eqccg$5mg@access1.digex.net> mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:

>In article ,
>Greg Raven  wrote:

>>I can see why you have kept this post hidden from me

>    We were really sneaky about it, too.  We hid it in several places, 
>including the last place Greg would ever think to look - his mailbox.  In 
>fact, that trick worked so well that we hid it there several times.

Not only that, but we hid it in the _last_ place Raven would think
to look: right here - over a dozen times, and, of course, we hid it
on the Jerusalem1 Gopher, a few dozen university Gophers world-wide,
and, of course, a WEB page here and there....

We knew (the International Joosh Conspiracy) that Raven would never
use his internet access to do anything clever, like reading his news
in Kansas, or using a Gopher, and had him cold...

Hell, Mike, I even hid the damned thing right here in my archives,
and regularly posted instructions for retrieving it to a.r. ... and,
I might add, several hundred folks did retrieve it, but Raven wasn't
one of them.

In short, our plan worked - Raven is exposed as more blind than
myopic :-)

-- 
          The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
   (For full file listing, send INDEX to listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca)
                     kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca
             Vancouver Island, British Columbia, CANADA

Article 21235 of alt.revisionism:
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From: donald05@pipeline.com (Donald Moffitt)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EIGHT MONTHS of Myopia: The Article Raven Can't Read...
Date: 10 Jan 1995 01:07:10 -0500
Organization: Pipeline
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <3et86e$shq@pipe1.pipeline.com>
References: <1995Jan04.090508.8570@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <3eqccg$5mg@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pipe1.pipeline.com

In alt.revisionism mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) said: 
 
 
 
> 
>In article , Greg Raven  
> wrote: 
>>I can see why you have kept this post hidden from me 
> 
>    We were really sneaky about it, too.  We hid it in several places,  
>including the last place Greg would ever think to look - his mailbox.  In
fact,  
>that trick worked so well that we hid it there several times. --  
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420		
Therefore it  
>cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA  22210		position of my
employer. 
>  
   Why don't you guys tell Greg where you have hidden his brain?  He needs
that more than he needs his posts. 
"I am half-German, and I can smell Scheiss halfway around the world."


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