Article 21212 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Reply to 'Best Evidence' part 1
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 1995 23:09:24 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 308
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NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

Many months ago, when I first connected with alt.revisionism, I saw that
here, as elsewhere, those who believe in and support traditional Holocaust
extermination stories kept repeating over and over that the "Holocaust" is
the best-documented event in history, and that there were mountains of
evidence to prove that it (the "Holocaust") happened, just as we have been
told for nearly 50 years.

I, then, asked for the one or two best pieces of evidence that the Nazis
had a plan or policy to exterminate the Jews in gas chambers. I
specifically said that I do not "deny" the Holocaust. I specifically
stated that I agree that some Jews suffered horribly during the Second
World War, some solely because they were Jewish, and that some had died,
from a variety of causes.

However, I have reason to doubt the existence of the so-called homicidal
gas chambers about which we hear so much. Therefore, I thought that those
who say they have a mountain of evidence to support their claims would be
ready, willing, and able to provide me with at least one piece of reliable
evidence to support their contentions.

I was wrong.

Instead of solid evidence, I was deluged with personal attacks. My
position was egregiously misstated and mischaracterized. I was offered any
number of "testimonies," most of which have no basis in fact. But I was
offered no solid evidence to support the existence of what would have to
be the world's most horrific device of mass murder, the Nazi gas chamber.

I have been waiting for months for this "best evidence" to be provided me.
It has yet to appear. Typical of the response that I have received,
however, is a post by Harmon/Keren/McCarthy/McVay/Stein that claims to
substantively establish once and for all that there were Nazi gas
chambers.

Although the "exterminationists" in alt.revisionism refuse to understand
my question in spite of my repeated explanations, it really is quite
simple.

I am not asking for evidence of any or all Nazi wrongdoing. For the time
being I am SPECIFICALLY interested in the gas chambers, for if there were
Nazi gas chambers for the purposes of mass executions of Jews or anyone
else, this alone would indicate that the Nazis meant to kill many, if not
all, of the Jews they could.

Therefore, it is of no use to talk about "eyewitnesses," chemical
properties of the insecticide supposedly used in the mass exterminations,
or anything else. First, we must locate a Nazi gas chamber. Everything
else comes second.

With this in mind, let us now turn to the
Harmon/Keren/McCarthy/McVay/Stein  post in response to this simple
challenge of mine. Instead of one or two best pieces of evidence,
Harmon/Keren/McCarthy/McVay/Stein have provided ten pieces of
non-evidence.

Referring to Message-ID: <1995Jan04.090508.8570@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>, dated
Wed, 04 Jan 95 09:05:08 GMT, we find this:

> On April 20th, Greg Raven posted a challenge.  He asserted, without
> evidence, that the Holocaust never happened - and he challenged those
> of us who disagree to _prove_otherwise_!
 
You can see that already this post is on shaky ground, as
Harmon/Keren/McCarthy/McVay/Stein misquote and mischaracterize my
challenge. I NEVER SAID that "the Holocaust never happened." This is,
however, a common ploy designed to portray Holocaust revisionists in an
unfavorable light.

> Greg Raven wrote:
>First, I do not deny the Holocaust happened. Let me repeat that. I do not 
>deny the Holocaust happened. For the purposes of this discussion, I am 
>using a fairly generic definition of the word "Holocaust," which is "the 
>murder of six million Jews as a central act of state by the Nazis during 
>the Second World War, many in gas chambers." If anyone has a problem with 
>this definition, I invite you to provide your version.
>
>Second, here is what Holocaust revisionists REALLY say: The Jews of Europe 
>suffered a great tragedy before and during the Second World War. Many were 
>mistreated, and many died under horrific conditions. However, a) there is 
>no evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy of exterminating the Jews, 
>b) there is no evidence that there were homicidal gas chambers for murder 
>Jews, and c) the figure of six million Jewish victims is an exaggeration.
>
>I imagine that some of you will take exception to at least some of these 
>statements. What I ask from those who do is simply this: Provide me with 
>what you think is the one or two best pieces of evidence that the Nazis had
>a plan to exterminate millions of Jews in homicidal gas chambers. Once you 
>provide what you think is the best evidence, I will respond.
>
>You will note that I do not want long collages consisting of snippets of 
>speeches, fragments of documents, etc. I want one or two pieces of 
>evidence. I will not consider personal attacks, discussions of race, 
>discussions about the meta-meaning of Holocaust "denial," or other 
>non-substantive, off-topic posts to address the issue at hand. I look 
>forward to hearing from all who have something to say.
>
>P.S. I do not have a lot of time to put into this discussion, but I will do
>the best I can. I hope you understand, and try not to get too surly with me
>if I skip a day or two while I attempt to meet my many deadlines.

Very well. Harmon/Keren/McCarthy/McVay/Stein then write:
 
> No reputable historian believes the claims in his fourth paragraph - that
> much quickly becomes clear to anyone taking the time to research the
> matter.  The Holocaust, the deliberate murder of about six million Jews
> along with about five million others, is a historical fact, as certain and
> undeniable as World War II itself.
 
Aside from McCarthy's unfounded assertion about what reputable historians
believe, let us note in passing his definition of "Holocaust" as being the
"deliberate murder" of millions of people. This would imply that McCarthy
has 1) proof that there was a murder, 2) that the murder was deliberate,
and 3) that six million Jews (and others) were the victims. In fact, he
has no such thing. But we are interested in the gas chambers, so let us
move on.

> But the burden of proof is _his_.  Reality does not need to be pinned down
> - it's available, in as much detail as desired, to anyone with the time to
> visit a library.  Mr. Raven's claims, however, are at this point
> impossibly, and perhaps deliberately, vague.
> 
> Therefore, we pose the question as it should be.  What we ask from him
> (or anyone who denies the Holocaust) is simply this:  provide us with what
> he thinks are the one or two best pieces of evidence that the Nazis did
> _not_ exterminate millions of people in homicidal gas chambers. Once he
> provides what he thinks is the best evidence, we will respond.

Here we see just how slippery that "mountain of evidence" is. Rather than
respond in any substantive way, McCarthy merely asserts that his position
is the correct one, that my challenge needn't be met, and that it is now
his turn to ask me a question. We also note in passing that McCarthy asks
me to prove a NEGATIVE, which is impossible.
 
> In his efforts to whitewash Holocaust-denial, Mr. Raven has posted a
> glaring contradiction, perhaps without even noticing that he's done so.
> His third paragraph defines "Holocaust" as "the murder of six million Jews
> as a central act of state by the Nazis during the Second World War, many
> in gas chambers."  (This definition will suffice, but we will concern
> ourselves with _all_ the victims of the Nazi mass murderers - they took
> the lives of about five million non-Jews, as well.)  And he writes, twice,
> "I do not deny the Holocaust happened."
> 
> Then, in his fourth paragraph, he denies the Holocaust happened.  He writes
> that "there is no evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy of
> exterminating the Jews."  He writes that "there is no evidence that there
> were homicidal gas chambers for murder [sic] Jews."  And he writes that
> "the figure of six million Jewish victims is an exaggeration."
> 
> One wonders how he will reconcile these two opposing viewpoints.

No, one wonders why McCarthy has so inextricably bound up "gas chambers"
with "Holocaust." Apparently, for McCarthy there can be no "Holocaust"
without gas chambers, which means for him that none of the suffering of
Jews who were evicted from their homes, shot in the Eastern territories,
robbed, worked to death in labor camps, or otherwise mistreated is worth
mentioning: those who did not die in a Nazi gas chamber are beneath his
consideration. McCarthy is more of a "Holocaust deniar" than virtually all
the revisionists I know, and I know most of them.

We suspect that he would like us to believe that he does not deny the
Holocaust - rather, that he merely has an "open mind" on the subject,
and is simply waiting to see sufficient evidence either way.
 
Harmon/Keren/McCarthy/McVay/Stein then goes on a long rambling attack on
me, misquoting and mischaracterizing in innumerable ways. But, finally, we
do get to the meat of the matter, which is what I would have to assume is
Harmon/Keren/McCarthy/McVay/Stein's "best evidence" of the existence of
the Nazi gas chambers. Remember, my request was for the one or two pieces
of best evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy to exterminate Jews
in homicidal gas chambers.
 
> Document one:
 
> We begin with ... a speech delivered by Heinrich
> Himmler.
> 
> The speech is quite famous and its text may be found in many sources,
> for example in the book _Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg
> Military Tribunals_, published by the U.S. Government Printing Office,
> 1949-1953.
> 
> Speeches by Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler before senior SS officers in Poznan.
> October 4 and 6, 1943.
>  
>     I am referring here to the evacuation of the Jews, the elimination
>     of the Jewish people.  This is one of the things that is easily said:
>     "The Jewish people are going to be exterminated," that's what every
>     party member says, "sure, it's in our program, elimination of the
>     Jews, extermination - it'll be done."  And then they all come along,
>     the 80 million worthy Germans, and each one has his one decent Jew.
>     Of course, the others are swine, but this one, he is a first-rate
>     Jew.  Of all those who talk like this, not one has seen it happen,
>     not one has had to go through with it.  Most of you men know what
>     it is like to see 100 corpses side by side, or 500, or 1000. To have
>     stood fast through this and - except for cases of human weakness - to
>     have stayed decent, that has made us hard.
>     
>     I ask of you that what I say in this circle you really only hear and
>     never speak about.  We come to the question: how is it with the women
>     and children?  I have resolved even here on a completely clear
>     solution.  That is to say, I do not consider myself justified in
>     eradicating the men - so to speak killing or ordering them killed
>     - and allowing the children to grow up and avenge our sons and
>     grandsons.  The difficult decision has to be taken, to cause this
>     race to disappear from the earth.

Not a pretty speech, to be sure, but there is not one mention of gas
chambers, even obliquely. Reams could be written about what Himmler was
referring to here, one of the purposes of my "simple" challenge was to
narrow the discussion to that of the existence of the gas chambers. I have
responded elsewhere regarding some of my thoughts of this Himmler speech,
and I may return to it at some later date, but for now I must restrict
myself to pointing out that there are no "gas chambers" here.
 
> Document two:
>  
> >From the book _Hitler and the Final Solution_ by G. Fleming, University of
> California Press, 1984, p. 142.
>  
> Report entitled "Resettlement of Jews" written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer
> Gricksch for SS-Col. von Herff and Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, after
> inspection of the Auschwitz camp on May 14-16, 1943.
>  
>     The unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered from
>     outside.  They go down five or six steps into a fairly long,
>     well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined with
>     benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and the benches
>     are numbered.  The prisoners are told that they are to be cleansed
>     and disinfected for their new assignments.  They must therefore
>     completely undress to be bathed.  To avoid panic and to prevent
>     disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
>     clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
>     be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
>     proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through
>     a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
>     shower bath.  In this room are three large pillars, into which
>     certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room. When
>     three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room, the
>     doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are dropped
>     down into the pillars.  As soon as the containers touch the base
>     of the pillars, they release particular substances that put the
>     people to sleep in one minute.  A few minutes later, the door opens on
>     the other side, where the elevator is located.... Then the corpses
>     are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first floor, where
>     ten large crematoria are located.  (Because fresh corpses burn
>     particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed for the whole
>     process.)  The job itself is performed by Jewish prisoners, who never
>     step outside this camp again.

Anyone interested in a complete treatment of this document are directed to
"The Franke-Gricksch 'Resettlement Action Report': Anatomy of a
Fabrication," by Brian Renk, which appeared in the Fall 1991 Journal of
Historical Review, page 261. You may access a condensed version through my
Web home page, the URL for which is http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr.

Briefly, however, this "document" is nowhere signed by Franke-Gricksch,
there is no original copy of this "document," and Franke-Gricksch mentions
a "rail spur" that did not exist until six months AFTER his alleged visit.
Is it mean to point out that this passage contains no mention of Jews?

> Document three:
>  
>> From the book _The Goebbels Diaries 1942-1943_, edited by L.P. Lochner,
> Doubleday & Co., 1948, p. 86.
>  
> Goebbels' diary, February 14, 1942.
>  
>     World Jewry will suffer a great catastrophe at the same time as
>     Bolshevism. The Fuehrer once more expressed his determination to
>     clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish
>     sentimentalism about it.  The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that
>     has now overtaken them.  Their destruction will now go hand in hand
>     with the destruction of our enemies.  We must hasten this process
>     with cold ruthlessness.
>  
> March 26, 1942.
>  
>     Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the general government [Poland] are
>     now being evacuated eastward.  The procedure is a pretty barbaric one
>     and not to be described here more definitely.  Not much will remain
>     of the Jews.  On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent
>     of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can
>     be used for forced labor.

Again, not pretty words, but no mention of gas chambers. One could also
quibble with the meaning assigned some of the words in this translation.
For example, for Goebbels Jews are to suffer "destruction" the same as
Germany's enemies. Does this mean that Goebbels meant to stuff every
Soviet solder and Communist party member into a gas chamber? No. Does it
even mean that Goebbels meant to kill every Soviet soldier and Communist
party member? Extremely unlikely, and at any rate it was not his decision
to make. Finally, I have a four-volume series of photographs of WWII
published shortly after the war by the VFW, and in many of the photo
captions they talk about "liquidating" the Germans. Do you suppose this
mean the American Army was stuffing German soldiers into gas chambers? Or
killing them to the last man? Probably not.

(Continued in next post)

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 21213 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Reply to 'Best Evidence' part 2
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 1995 23:10:17 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 321
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

(Continued from previous post)

> Document four:
>  
> Hoess' memoirs describe the gassing process clearly and unambiguously in
> many places.  Here is one example.  The memoirs were published, among
> other places, in the book _Kommandant in Auschwitz_, by Rudolf Hoess,
> Deutsche Verlagsanstalt, Stuttgart, 1958.  English translation _Commandant
> of Auschwitz: the Autobiography of Rudolf Hoess_, World Press, Cleveland,
> 1959, p. 123f.
>  
>     On the railroad ramp the Jews, who up till then had been under the
>     supervision of the state police, were taken over by a squad from the
>     camp.  They were led by the head of the detention camp, in two
>     detachments, to the bunker.  That was what we called the extermination
>     installations.  The luggage stayed on the ramp, from where it was
>     carried to the sorting area - called Kanada - between the buildings
>     of the DAW [weapons factory] and the courtyard.  The Jews had to
>     undress near the bunker.  They were told that they had to go into
>     what were called delousing rooms.  All these rooms, five in all, were
>     filled simultaneously.  The doors were hermetically sealed, and the
>     contents of the cans of gas were dropped in through the holes in the
>     ceiling provided for this purpose.
>     
>     Half an hour later the doors were opened;  there were two in each
>     room.  The corpses were removed and taken to the ditches on tip wagons
>     that ran on rails.  Trucks carried the clothes to the sorting area.
>     All the work, including help in undressing, filling the bunker,
>     emptying the bunker, burying the corpses, as well as digging and
>     filling up the mass graves, was done by a special detail of Jews who
>     were housed separately and who, in accordance with Eichmann's
>     instructions, were also exterminated after each big operation.

Even "Holocaust" authorities such as Deborah Lipstadt and Christopher
Browning now acknowledge the revisionist position that Hoess was lying
(the revisionists have discovered indications that he was tortured), as
can be seen in the December 1993 Vanity Fair. There is more available on
the Hoess business through my Web home page, URL
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr. To give just two examples, however, Hoess
also claimed that 2.5 million were gassed at Auschwitz (a figure roughly
double what most "Holocaust" historians now admit was the "true" figure),
and spoke of a camp by the name of "Wolzek," which does not (and never
did) exist. (See the IHR pamphlet "Auschwitz," by Mark Weber, on my Web
site.)
 
> Document five:
>  
> Hoess not only wrote many pages detailing the extermination effort, he
> testified about it under oath.  This segment of that testimony is quoted
> in _Documents on Nazism, 1919-1945_, edited by Jeremy Noakes and G.
> Pridham, Viking Press, New York, 1974, pp. 490-1.
> [text deleted]

Need we say anything more about Hoess?

> Document six:
>  
>>From the book _The Good Old Days_, by Ernst Klee, W. Dressen, and V. Riess,
> The Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 68.
>  
> Ereignismlrdung UdSSR No. 128 [Operational Situation Report from the USSR
> No. 128], November 3, 1941.
>  
>     In Kiev, difficulties that arose during the execution of a major
>     action of this type - particularly with regard to registration - were
>     overcome by the use of posters annoncing that all Jews were to report
>     for resettlement. Although it was initially thought that the action
>     would only involve 5,000 to 6,000 Jews, more than 30,000 Jews
>     reported, who as a result of extremely efficient organization still
>     believed they were going to be resettled right up untill the time
>     they were executed.
>     
>     Despite that fact that up to now a total of some 75,000 Jews have been
>     liquidated in this way, it has nevertheless become apparent that this
>     method will not provide a solution to the Jewish problem.

Is it just me, or is there really no mention of gas chambers in this
document? I'd could let it go at that, but in passing we should note in
passing that "Holocaust" historians claim the Einsatzgruppen were given
the task of wiping out Jews in the Eastern territories (this is a fragment
from a report by Einsatzgruppe C). Isn't it odd that the various
Einsatzgruppen units submitted 127 previous reports, in which they should
have discussed wiping out the Jews (given that this allegedly was their
task), yet it is not until the 128th such report, over four months after
the first report, is the first report in which
Harmon/Keren/McCarthy/McVay/Stein find something incriminating?
 
> Document seven:
>  
>>From the book _The Final Solution: The Attempt to Exterminate the Jews of
> Europe, 1939-1945_, by G. Reitlinger and T. Yosellof, South Brunswick, 
> 1968.
>  
> Letter from SS Major-General Stahlecker to SS General Heydrich,
> January 31, 1942.
>  
>     The complete removal of Jewry from the eastern territories has been
>     substantially attained, with the exception of white Russia, as a
>     result of the execution up to the present time of 229,052 Jews.

Rather like the "body counts" of our soldiers in Vietnam, and just as
accurate ... but still no gas chambers. Remember, I agree that some Jews
died simply because they were Jews.
 
> Document eight:
>  
>>From the book _Trente-quatre mois dans les camps de concentration_
> (Thirty-four months in the concentration camps), by Dr. Andre' Lettich,
L'Union Cooperative, Tours, 1946.  Translation appears in _Nazi Mass
> Murder_, by Eugen Kogon, H. Langbein, and A. Rueckerl,
> Yale University Press, New Haven and London, 1993, pp. 150-151.
>  
>     Up to the end of January 1943 there were no crematory ovens at
>     Birkenau.  In the middle of a little birch wood, about two
>     kilometers from the camp, was a peaceful-looking cottage in which
>     a Polish family, expelled or murdered, had lived.  For a long time
>     this cottage had been used as a gas chamber.
>     
>     More than five hundred meters from it were two barracks:  the men
>     were grouped on one side, the women on the other.  Very politely,
>     very amiably, a little speech was made to them.  "You've arrived
>     after a trip;  you're dirty;  you're going to have a bath.  Undress
>     quickly!"  Towels and soap were distributed, and then the brutes
>     revealed themselves in their true colors:  with heavy blows this
>     human herd, these men and women, were driven naked, winter or
>     summer, across the hundred or so meters that separated them from
>     the "shower room."  Above the entrance door was written "Brausebad"
>     [showers].  Shower heads could even be seen on the ceiling;  they
>     were cemented in, but water never flowed from them.
>     
>     These poor innocents were piled up, packed against one another,
>     and it was then that panic began:  they finally understood what
>     fate awaited them.  But blows with clubs and revolver shots quickly
>     calmed things down, and all finally penetrated this mortal chamber.
>     The doors were closed and, ten minutes later, the temperature had
>     risen high enough for the hydrocyanic acid to volatize--it was with
>     hydrocyanic acid that the condemned were gassed.  It was Zyklon B,
>     diatomite impregnated with a 20 percent solution of hydrocyanic
>     acid, that the German barbarians used.
>     
>     Then SS-Unterschardfuehrer Moll dropped the gas through a little
>     window.  The cries that could be heard were frightening, but after
>     a few moments complete silence reigned.  Twenty to twenty-five
>     minutes later the windows and doors were opened to air the room, and
>     the corpses were immediately thrown into ditches, where they were
>     burned.

Another "testimony," but at least this one deals with gas chambers! Or
does it? Apparently, this "peaceful-looking cottage" no longer exists, or
the cottage itself would be introduced into evidence. (Which would you
rather have, endless testimonies about flying saucers, or one real,
honest-to-gosh flying saucer to examine for yourself?) This remarkable
cottage has shower heads in the ceiling, and "peaceful-looking" though it
may be, at some point there are those in the group that recognize it for
what it really is, a homical gas chamber for mass gassings, something that
no one has ever seen before (or since!). Why a "peaceful-looking cottage"
would be recognized as something that none of them had ever seen is not
mentioned in this "testimony."

The characteristics of this cottage continue to amaze, as it is so well
insulated that it takes only ten minutes for the naked, shivering people
inside to warm the interior temperature to nearly 80 degrees F, and this
in the dead of the brutal Polish winter!
 
This remarkable cottage also has windows (in a gas chamber?), through
which an SS man drops the Zyklon B. These are very special windows,
apparently, because those within the cottage cannot break them, nor climb
out of them.

It is a pity that this cottage did not survive so we could examine it
today. Doubtless we could all learn something about the extraordinary
construction techniques employed by the Germans. It should not have been
difficult to find: all you have to do is look for it next to the magical
ditches into which you can through human bodies and have them burn, even
though corpses require a lot of energy to cremate, and in a ditch there
would be a decided scarcity of oxygen to fuel a blaze of whatever origin.

But then, this document fails to mention Jews, so perhaps the entire thing
is moot?

> Document nine:
>  
> Notes From Diary of SS-Doctor Kremer, while in Auschwitz
> ['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, 
> NY, 1988, p. 256-268]
>      2 September 1942 
>      3.00 a.m.  attended my first Sonderaktion.  Dante's Inferno seems
>      to me almost a comedy compared to this.  They don't call
>      Auschwitz the extermination camp for nothing!  
>      5 September 1942 
>      In the morning attended a Sonderaktion from the women's
>      concentration camp (muselmans); the most dreadful of horrors.
>      Hschf.  Thilo -- army doctor -- was right when he said to me this
>      is the 'anus mundi'.  In the evening towards 8.00 attended
>      another Sonderaktion from Holland.
>      10 October 1942
>      Extracted and fixed fresh live material from liver, spleen and
>      pancreas...
>      12 October 1942
>      Second inoculation against typhus, later on in the evening severe
>      generalized reaction (fever).  Despite this in the night attended
>      a further Sonderaktion from Holland (1,600 persons).  Ghastly
>      scenes in front of the last bunker!  That was the 10th
>      Sonderaktion.
>      13 November 1942 
>      Extracted fresh live material (liver, spleen and pancreas) from a
>      previously photographed, severely atrophied Jewish prisoner aged
>      eighteen.  Fixed as always, liver and spleen in Carnoy and
>      pancreas in Zenker (Prisoner No.  68,030).

Kremer's diary and other utterances have been thoroughly treated by Dr.
Robert Faurisson in "Confessions of SS Men who were at Auschwitz," in the
Summer 1981 (Volume 2, number 2) issue of The Journal of Historical
Review.

Briefly, there is no mention of a gas chamber here, and the only mention
of a Jew has nothing to do with extermination. It is worth noting in
passing that Kramer is misquoted in the very first excerpt given. A much
better translation would be:

quote:
2 September 1942: This morning, at 3 o'clock, I was present OUTSIDE for
the first time at a SPECIAL ACTION. Compared to that, Dante's Inferno
appears TO ME ALMOST LIKE a comedy. It is not without reason that
Auschwitz is called THE camp of THE ANNIHILATION!
end quote

I have place in capital letters those words and phrases that are either
missing or mistranslated in the version posted above. Clearly, mass
homicidal gassings are not outdoor events. Not so clear from these
passages, but discernable from other evidence is the fact that the
"annihilation" about which Kremer is speaking is in fact the terrible
typhus epidemic sweeping Auschwitz at that time. For example, in a letter
of 21 October 1942 that Dr. Kremer had sent a friend, he wrote:

quote:
I don't really know for certain, but I expect, however, that I'll be able
to be in Muenster before 1 December, and thus finally turn my back on this
hell of Auschwitz where, in addition to the typhoid, and so on, typhus has
once again broken out strongly ...
end quote

Last and least,

> Document ten:
>  
>>From Dr. Kremer's testimony regarding his diary, published in _The Good
> Old Days_, by Ernst Klee, W. Dressen, and V. Riess, The Free Press, New
> York, 1988, p. 258.
>  
>     I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups
>     of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz].  I cannot say how big
>     the group was.  When I got close to the bunker I saw them sitting
>     on the ground.  They were still clothed.  As they were wearing
>     worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing hut but
>     made to undress in the open air.  I concluded from the behavior of
>     these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited them, as they
>     begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their lives.  However,
>     they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed.  As an anatomist I
>     have seen a lot of terrible things:  I had had a lot of experience
>     with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that day was like nothing I had
>     ever seen before.  Still completely shocked by what I had seen I wrote
>     on my diary on 5 September 1942:  "The most dreadful of horrors.
>     Hauptscharfuehrer Thilo was right when he said to me today that this
>     is the 'anus mundi', the anal orifice of the world".  I used this
>     image because I could not imagine anything more disgusting and
>     horrific.

There are many interesting things about this "testimony," but one of the
most fascinating to me is that we have what Kremer wrote at the time,
which is not damning, and then we have what he said in the Polish
(Communist) court procedings. I happen not to trust Communist sources or
their show trials. Exterminationists Harmon/Keren/McCarthy/McVay/Stein
appear not to share my reluctance about accepting tainted sources.

Beyond that, there are many nuances involved in understanding this
"testimony." I will quote again from Robert Faurisson:

quote:
I said that Professor Kremer, appearing before the tribunal in Muenster
(Westphalia) in 1960, had confirmed the confession that Communist
examining magistrate Jan Sehn (of Jewish origin?) had obtained from him in
1947 and that at the Frankfurt Trial (1963-1965) he had been called as a
prosecution witness against his compatriots. What I did not yet know in
1980 and what I learned later is the reason why the poor man, after ten
years of prison in Poland (1947-1957) and after returning to his city of
M|nster, had gone before a German tribunal. I discovered the reason while
reading, in its French Version, the Anthologie d'Auschwitz (blue), Volume
1, Part 1, Warsaw, 1969, pages 239 to 261. The reason is that after his
return to M|nster in 1957, Kremer began to protest against the treatment
that he had undergone at the hands of the Polish courts ... 

... Kremer, as a matter of fact, had complained that in Poland "only
hatred was entitled to give its opinion" (page 240). Better than that, we
learn, thanks to that Communist publication, that after his return to
M|nster Kremer retracted his confessions ...
end quote

(Source: "Revisionism on trial in France: 1979-1983," JHR, Summer 1985, p.
133-181.)

Conclusion:

If you want to believe the "Holocaust" happened, fine. If you want to hate
Germans for occurences -- real or imagined -- that happened 50 years ago,
that is your problem. But the gas chamber lie must go, just as have other
lies about Germany, Germans, and the "Holocaust" such as the "human soap"
lie and countless others. There will still be more than enough tragedy to
go around, and telling the truth, telling what really happened, is a
better way of honoring those who suffered than is telling lies and
inventing other "victims."

-- 
Greg Raven
mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 21229 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Reply to 'Best Evidence' part 1
Date: 9 Jan 1995 08:55:19 GMT
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greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

Not much, frankly. But let's look at it anyway. It's instructive to
expose the "scholarly research" of our "revisionists". Especially
so since it took Raven more than half-a-year to write this response.

# Instead of solid evidence, I was deluged with personal attacks. 

The only "personal attack" on Raven I can recall was pointing
out that he's a die-hard Hitler admirer - as he himself stated,
on a different BBS. I see nothing wrong with exposing this
fact. I agree that his "arguments" should also be addressed,
but it is important nontheless to point out that Raven, like
practically all other Holocaust deniers, is a Hitler admirer.

# My position was egregiously misstated and mischaracterized. I was 
# offered any number of "testimonies," most of which have no basis
# in fact. 

He has not proved that *one* testimony "has no basis in fact". We
have here the old "revisionist" line: "although I wasn't there,
I know more than everyone who was there". 

[Referring to Himmler's Poznan speech]

# Not a pretty speech, to be sure, 

Did you hear that, boys and girls?

"NOT A PRETTY SPEECH!!".

This is what he has to say... in reaction to Himmler's words:



"We come to the question: how is it with the women and
the children? I have resolved even here on a completely clear
solution. That is to say I do not consider myself justified in
eradicating the men - so to speak killing or ordering them killed -
and allowing the avengers in the shape of the children to grow up for
our sons and grandsons. The difficult decision has to be taken, to
cause this Volk [people] to disappear from the earth".



# but there is not one mention of gas chambers, even obliquely. 

So what? Gas chambers are just a tool. Himmler didn't go into the 
details - so what? What's important is that he said, in the most
explicit terms, that the Nazi goal is to kill each and every Jew on 
the face of the Earth, women and children included.

This is what we're talking about. There's plenty of other evidence
about how exactly the Nazis went on to achieve their goal - gas
chambers, mass shootings, etc.

[commenting on the Franke-Gricksch report from 1943, which
 describes the gassings at Auschwitz].

# and Franke-Gricksch mentions a "rail spur" that did not exist 
# until six months AFTER his alleged visit.

Rubbish. It is true that in April 1944,the Birkenau railway was
extended towards the crematoriums, to make the murder process
faster; however, there was a railway there before, unless Raven
claims the deported Jews walked all the way from France, Holland, etc.

# Is it mean to point out that this passage contains no mention 
# of Jews?

Is it mean to point out that Raven is a liar?

The report is titled "Resettlement of Jews", and mentions Jews a 
few times.

# Goebbels' diary, March 26, 1942.
#  
# Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the general government [Poland] are
# now being evacuated eastward.  The procedure is a pretty barbaric one
# and not to be described here more definitely.  Not much will remain
# of the Jews.  On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent
# of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can
# be used for forced labor.

# Again, not pretty words, but no mention of gas chambers. 

So what? As noted, this is just a technical detail.

# One could also quibble with the meaning assigned some of the words
# in this translation.

How can one "quibble" with "about 60 percent of them will have to be 
liquidated"? Have these "revisionists" gone completely crazy?

# Even "Holocaust" authorities such as Deborah Lipstadt and Christopher
# Browning now acknowledge the revisionist position that Hoess was
# lying

"Lying"? They said he was a poor witness on some counts; he confuses
some dates, for instance. No one doubts his descriptions of the
gas chambers and the gassing process. And Hoess is only one witness
among many, such as Kaduk, Hoffman, Klein, Kremer, Hoessler, Broad,
Worl, Sternol, Piwko, Buky, Gulba, Glowakci, Baretzki, Stark, Klehr,
Morgen, Bock, Hoeblinger, Hess, Heger, Lorenz, Siebald, Wildermuth, 
Wilks, Wilhelmy, Hocker, Muench, Prufer, Sander, Schultze, Starotska...

These are just some of the people who were in Auschwitz and
testified about what they saw. Unlike Raven, they were there. On
what grounds does he claim all are lying? All of them?

# (the revisionists have discovered indications that he was tortured), 

Oh, so now it's "indications"? 

# Ereignismlrdung UdSSR No. 128 [Operational Situation Report from the 
# USSR No. 128], November 3, 1941.
#  
#  In Kiev, difficulties that arose during the execution of a major
#  action of this type - particularly with regard to registration - were
#  overcome by the use of posters announcing that all Jews were to report
#  for resettlement. Although it was initially thought that the action
#  would only involve 5,000 to 6,000 Jews, more than 30,000 Jews
#  reported, who as a result of extremely efficient organization still
#  believed they were going to be resettled right up until the time
#  they were executed.
#  
#  Despite that fact that up to now a total of some 75,000 Jews have been
#  liquidated in this way, it has nevertheless become apparent that this
#  method will not provide a solution to the Jewish problem.

# Is it just me, or is there really no mention of gas chambers in this
# document? 

So what? There are documents by the "Einsatzgruppen" that do mention
the gas vans. The question is, why were so many Jews murdered?

# Isn't it odd that the various
# Einsatzgruppen units submitted 127 previous reports, in which they
# should have discussed wiping out the Jews (given that this
# allegedly was their task), yet it is not until the 128th such
# report, over four months after the first report, is the first
# report in which Harmon/Keren/McCarthy/McVay/Stein find something 
# incriminating?

Who said it's the first such report?

# Letter from SS Major-General Stahlecker to SS General Heydrich,
# January 31, 1942.
#  
#  The complete removal of Jewry from the eastern territories has been
#  substantially attained, with the exception of white Russia, as a
#  result of the execution up to the present time of 229,052 Jews.

# Rather like the "body counts" of our soldiers in Vietnam, and just
# as accurate ... 

Says who? Who says it's not accurate? Why are only Jews listed
as having been executed? 

# Another "testimony," but at least this one deals with gas chambers! 
# Or does it? Apparently, this "peaceful-looking cottage" no longer
# exists, 

No, it doesn't. However, other gas chambers do still exist. 

# This remarkable cottage has shower heads in the ceiling, and 
# "peaceful-looking" though it may be, at some point there are those
# in the group that recognize it for what it really is, a homical
# gas chamber for mass gassings, something that no one has ever seen
# before (or since!). 

Raven's plain lying again. Nowhere does it say in the text that
the victims recognized that this is a gas chamber. The text goes
"they finally understood what fate awaited them". Some must have
sensed that they were being led to their death, and panic broke
out, more so because (as the testimony states) they were
ruthlessly beaten by the SS guards. BTW, some might have heard 
about gas chambers, and hoped these were only rumors, but when
they saw the small chamber they were being herded into, they realized
the rumors were correct. 

# The characteristics of this cottage continue to amaze, as it is so 
# well insulated that it takes only ten minutes for the naked, 
# shivering people inside to warm the interior temperature to nearly
# 80 degrees F, and this in the dead of the brutal Polish winter!
 
When many people are crowded in a small, closed space, it will
heat up considerably. Moreover, as has been noted here numerous
times, Zyklon-B can be used in temperatures far lower than 
80 degrees F; the Degesch manual states this very clearly.

# This remarkable cottage also has windows (in a gas chamber?), 
# through which an SS man drops the Zyklon B. These are very special 
# windows, apparently, because those within the cottage cannot break 
# them, nor climb out of them.

Silly word games. So it probably was a small window, with a hatch, 
probably set high up so the people couldn't reach it (as Bock's
testimony hints). 

# Kremer's diary and other utterances have been thoroughly treated 
# by Dr. Robert Faurisson in "Confessions of SS Men who were at 
# Auschwitz," in the Summer 1981 (Volume 2, number 2) issue of The
# Journal of Historical Review.

True. However, Faurisson's "analysis" doesn't explain why Kremer
described Auschwitz as an "extermination camp", nor the rest of his
diary.

# From Dr. Kremer's testimony regarding his diary, published in _The Good
# Old Days_, by Ernst Klee, W. Dressen, and V. Riess, The Free Press, New
# York, 1988, p. 258.
# 
#  I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups
#  of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot say how big
#  the group was. When I got close to the bunker I saw them sitting
#  on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were wearing
#  worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing hut but
#  made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the behavior of
#  these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited them, as they
#  begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their lives. However,
#  they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed. As an anatomist I
#  have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had a lot of experience
#  with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that day was like nothing I had
#  ever seen before. Still completely shocked by what I had seen I wrote
#  on my diary on 5 September 1942: "The most dreadful of horrors.
#  Hauptscharfuehrer Thilo was right when he said to me today that this
#  is the 'anus mundi', the anal orifice of the world". I used this
#  image because I could not imagine anything more disgusting and
#  horrific.

# There are many interesting things about this "testimony," but one 
# of the most fascinating to me is that we have what Kremer wrote at
# the time, which is not damning, 

NOT DAMNING!!!

The man's crazy, it's obvious to anyone who bothers to read what
he writes.

Kremer wrote, while at Auschwitz, that 

"They don't call Auschwitz the extermination camp for nothing!"

And Raven claims that it's not damning?

# and then we have what he said in the Polish
# (Communist) court procedings. 

Kremer said the same things in a German court, when he was called
as a witness. Also, he never stated that what he said to the Poles
was untrue. Does Raven claim Kremer ever denied that the SS gassed
people in Birkenau? If so, let him present his source.


-Danny Keren.




Article 21232 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ah787@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Bill Stuart)
Subject: Re: Reply to 'Best Evidence' part 1
Message-ID: 
Sender: ah787@freenet3.carleton.ca (Bill Stuart)
Reply-To: ah787@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Bill Stuart)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:   
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 04:02:28 GMT
Lines: 258

In a previous posting, Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) writes:
> I, then, asked for the one or two best pieces of evidence that the Nazis
> had a plan or policy to exterminate the Jews in gas chambers. I
> specifically said that I do not "deny" the Holocaust. I specifically
> stated that I agree that some Jews suffered horribly during the Second
> World War, some solely because they were Jewish, and that some had died,
> from a variety of causes.

	Your sig file alludes to the fact that you do not beleive the
holocaust ever happened. The word "Hoax" tends to lead people to the
conclusion that you do not believe it happened.

> I am not asking for evidence of any or all Nazi wrongdoing. For the time
> being I am SPECIFICALLY interested in the gas chambers, for if there were
> Nazi gas chambers for the purposes of mass executions of Jews or anyone
> else, this alone would indicate that the Nazis meant to kill many, if not
> all, of the Jews they could.

	There are large areas that could have been used to eradicate human
life. The disinfecting stations differ from the extermination chambers
only in the amount of gas released to the prisoners. 

> Therefore, it is of no use to talk about "eyewitnesses," chemical
> properties of the insecticide supposedly used in the mass exterminations,
> or anything else. First, we must locate a Nazi gas chamber. Everything
> else comes second.

	Most of the death camps were destroyed near the end of world war 2.

> With this in mind, let us now turn to the
> Harmon/Keren/McCarthy/McVay/Stein  post in response to this simple
> challenge of mine. Instead of one or two best pieces of evidence,
> Harmon/Keren/McCarthy/McVay/Stein have provided ten pieces of
> non-evidence.
> 
> Referring to Message-ID: <1995Jan04.090508.8570@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>, dated
> Wed, 04 Jan 95 09:05:08 GMT, we find this:
> 
>> On April 20th, Greg Raven posted a challenge.  He asserted, without
>> evidence, that the Holocaust never happened - and he challenged those
>> of us who disagree to _prove_otherwise_!
>  
> You can see that already this post is on shaky ground, as
> Harmon/Keren/McCarthy/McVay/Stein misquote and mischaracterize my
> challenge. I NEVER SAID that "the Holocaust never happened." This is,
> however, a common ploy designed to portray Holocaust revisionists in an
> unfavorable light.

	As i pointed out, your sig file says that the holocaust never
happened. 

>> Greg Raven wrote:
>>P.S. I do not have a lot of time to put into this discussion, but I will do
>>the best I can. I hope you understand, and try not to get too surly with me
>>if I skip a day or two while I attempt to meet my many deadlines.
> 
> Very well. Harmon/Keren/McCarthy/McVay/Stein then write:
>  
>> No reputable historian believes the claims in his fourth paragraph - that
>> much quickly becomes clear to anyone taking the time to research the
>> matter.  The Holocaust, the deliberate murder of about six million Jews
>> along with about five million others, is a historical fact, as certain and
>> undeniable as World War II itself.
>  
> Aside from McCarthy's unfounded assertion about what reputable historians
> believe, let us note in passing his definition of "Holocaust" as being the
> "deliberate murder" of millions of people. This would imply that McCarthy
> has 1) proof that there was a murder, 2) that the murder was deliberate,
> and 3) that six million Jews (and others) were the victims. In fact, he
> has no such thing. But we are interested in the gas chambers, so let us
> move on.

	There was at least one murder in nazi prison camps, premeditated.
There have been some mass graves uncovered, not enough bodies have been
found to explain the 6 million missing, but then how do explain pits full
of human ashes?

> Here we see just how slippery that "mountain of evidence" is. Rather than
> respond in any substantive way, McCarthy merely asserts that his position
> is the correct one, that my challenge needn't be met, and that it is now
> his turn to ask me a question. We also note in passing that McCarthy asks
> me to prove a NEGATIVE, which is impossible.

	He asks you to prove that the hundreds of dead bodies, ashes,
tattoos, piles of shoes and clothes, and other evidence does not lead to
the conclusion that the nazis murdered millions.
  
>> Document one:
>  
>> We begin with ... a speech delivered by Heinrich
>> Himmler.
>> 
>> The speech is quite famous and its text may be found in many sources,
>> for example in the book _Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg
>> Military Tribunals_, published by the U.S. Government Printing Office,
>> 1949-1953.
>> 
>> Speeches by Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler before senior SS officers in Poznan.
>> October 4 and 6, 1943.
>>  
>>     I am referring here to the evacuation of the Jews, the elimination
>>     of the Jewish people.  This is one of the things that is easily said:
>>     "The Jewish people are going to be exterminated," that's what every
>>     party member says, "sure, it's in our program, elimination of the
>>     Jews, extermination - it'll be done."  And then they all come along,
>>     the 80 million worthy Germans, and each one has his one decent Jew.
>>     Of course, the others are swine, but this one, he is a first-rate
>>     Jew.  Of all those who talk like this, not one has seen it happen,
>>     not one has had to go through with it.  Most of you men know what
>>     it is like to see 100 corpses side by side, or 500, or 1000. To have
>>     stood fast through this and - except for cases of human weakness - to
>>     have stayed decent, that has made us hard.
>>     
>>     I ask of you that what I say in this circle you really only hear and
>>     never speak about.  We come to the question: how is it with the women
>>     and children?  I have resolved even here on a completely clear
>>     solution.  That is to say, I do not consider myself justified in
>>     eradicating the men - so to speak killing or ordering them killed
>>     - and allowing the children to grow up and avenge our sons and
>>     grandsons.  The difficult decision has to be taken, to cause this
>>     race to disappear from the earth.
> 
> Not a pretty speech, to be sure, but there is not one mention of gas
> chambers, even obliquely. Reams could be written about what Himmler was
> referring to here, one of the purposes of my "simple" challenge was to
> narrow the discussion to that of the existence of the gas chambers. I have
> responded elsewhere regarding some of my thoughts of this Himmler speech,
> and I may return to it at some later date, but for now I must restrict
> myself to pointing out that there are no "gas chambers" here.

	Hitler did authorize invasions and bombings of other countries.
Whether the soldiers used bombs, tanks, ground troops or blitzkrieg is
irrelevant; the invasions did occur. Similarly, exterminations did occur.
This is a very, very lame attempt and is beneath you,i had hoped you might
post something worth reading.
	Pointing these types of "facts" out only serves to weaken your
already tenative argument.

>> Document two:
>>  
>> >From the book _Hitler and the Final Solution_ by G. Fleming, University of
>> California Press, 1984, p. 142.
>>  
>> Report entitled "Resettlement of Jews" written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer
>> Gricksch for SS-Col. von Herff and Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, after
>> inspection of the Auschwitz camp on May 14-16, 1943.
>>  
>>     The unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered from
>>     outside.  They go down five or six steps into a fairly long,
>>     well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined with
>>     benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and the benches
>>     are numbered.  The prisoners are told that they are to be cleansed
>>     and disinfected for their new assignments.  They must therefore
>>     completely undress to be bathed.  To avoid panic and to prevent
>>     disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
>>     clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
>>     be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
>>     proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through
>>     a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
>>     shower bath.  In this room are three large pillars, into which
>>     certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room. When
>>     three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room, the
>>     doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are dropped
>>     down into the pillars.  As soon as the containers touch the base
>>     of the pillars, they release particular substances that put the
>>     people to sleep in one minute.  A few minutes later, the door opens on
>>     the other side, where the elevator is located.... Then the corpses
>>     are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first floor, where
>>     ten large crematoria are located.  (Because fresh corpses burn
>>     particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed for the whole
>>     process.)  The job itself is performed by Jewish prisoners, who never
>>     step outside this camp again.
> 
> Anyone interested in a complete treatment of this document are directed to
> "The Franke-Gricksch 'Resettlement Action Report': Anatomy of a
> Fabrication," by Brian Renk, which appeared in the Fall 1991 Journal of
> Historical Review, page 261. You may access a condensed version through my
> Web home page, the URL for which is http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr.

	That is not a valid historical or scientific document. It is
inadmissable as a reference, as the source is biased and extremely
suspect. I would not accept a holocaust paper by hamas millitants either,
before you ask.

> Briefly, however, this "document" is nowhere signed by Franke-Gricksch,
> there is no original copy of this "document," and Franke-Gricksch mentions
> a "rail spur" that did not exist until six months AFTER his alleged visit.
> Is it mean to point out that this passage contains no mention of Jews?

	My father is a military officer, and i have never seen him or any
other officer sign any military document. It's just not done. 
	I don't know what the "rail spur" refers to, can you point it out?

>> Document three:
>>  
>>> From the book _The Goebbels Diaries 1942-1943_, edited by L.P. Lochner,
>> Doubleday & Co., 1948, p. 86.
>>  
>> Goebbels' diary, February 14, 1942.
>>  
>>     World Jewry will suffer a great catastrophe at the same time as
>>     Bolshevism. The Fuehrer once more expressed his determination to
>>     clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish
>>     sentimentalism about it.  The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that
>>     has now overtaken them.  Their destruction will now go hand in hand
>>     with the destruction of our enemies.  We must hasten this process
>>     with cold ruthlessness.
>>  
>> March 26, 1942.
>>  
>>     Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the general government [Poland] are
>>     now being evacuated eastward.  The procedure is a pretty barbaric one
>>     and not to be described here more definitely.  Not much will remain
>>     of the Jews.  On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent
>>     of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can
>>     be used for forced labor.
> 
> Again, not pretty words, but no mention of gas chambers. One could also

	Just because gas chambers are not mentioned does not mean they did
not exist. Again, Hitler did not mention guns being used in many of his
speeches, does that mean no guns were used in WW2?

> quibble with the meaning assigned some of the words in this translation.
> For example, for Goebbels Jews are to suffer "destruction" the same as
> Germany's enemies. Does this mean that Goebbels meant to stuff every
> Soviet solder and Communist party member into a gas chamber? No. Does it
> even mean that Goebbels meant to kill every Soviet soldier and Communist
> party member? Extremely unlikely, and at any rate it was not his decision
> to make. Finally, I have a four-volume series of photographs of WWII

	Destruction means death, no way around this. Gobbel meant to kill.
The method is irrelevant. Gas chambers may very well have been drowning,
if that had proved more convinent.

> published shortly after the war by the VFW, and in many of the photo
> captions they talk about "liquidating" the Germans. Do you suppose this
> mean the American Army was stuffing German soldiers into gas chambers? Or
> killing them to the last man? Probably not.

	Destroying the army. Killing the remaining soldiers was done at
the end of the war, that is a confirmed historical fact. The american army
was also smashing nazi equipment, destroying offices, etc.

> For free information about the IHR, write to:
> IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
> Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
> The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping
      ^^^^

	Note the clear implication that the holocaust is a hoax.



--
"To do nothing is as fatal as to do evil, but it is more cowardly. The
most unpardonable of mortal sins is inertia." -Eliphas Levi
"A chain of iron is easier to break than a chain of flowers"-Eliphas Levi


Article 21247 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Reply to 'Best Evidence' part 1
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Sun, 08 Jan 1995 23:09:24 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 08:38:56 GMT
Lines: 180


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>Instead of solid evidence, I was deluged with personal attacks.

Bull. You were deluged with evidence.

And then when you stuck to bleating the usual lies all lies, forgeries
all forgeries, people began pointing out that you were obviously a
deluded moron.

That's not a personal attack, it's simply a reasonable assessment of a
person who, when confronted with incontrovertible evidence to the
contrary, continues to maintain an unmaintainable position. You would
say the same of someone who denied the earth were round.

>I was offered any
>number of "testimonies," most of which have no basis in fact.

A. Why does Raven say they have no basis in fact? BECAUSE he doesn't
want to believe them, that's why, that's the only reason.

B. Was Raven *only* offered testimonies? No, he was also offered
evidence such as memos sent between Nazi officers and written during
the regular course of their duties documenting the mass murder.

Now you see why the phrase "deluded moron" comes to mind, and why it
is not a "personal attack" at all. No more than calling a person who
is over 2 meters in height "quite tall" would be a personal attack.

>I am not asking for evidence of any or all Nazi wrongdoing. For the time
>being I am SPECIFICALLY interested in the gas chambers,

And we gave him the Franke-Grisch Report (appended below), and he
declared it a forgery.

And we gave him memos written between Dr August Becker and
SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Rauff in 1942. And Raven ignored them.

And we gave him notes written by Rudolph Hoss, Commandant of
Auschwitz, on a visit to the Chelmno extermination facility. And Raven
ignored it.

So what's the point?

>First, we must locate a Nazi gas chamber. Everything
>else comes second.

So go to Auschwitz and visit the museum.

Most gas chambers were destroyed, the Nazis covered their tracks in
Poland as the Soviets advanced on them, they knew what they were
doing.

So now your point is that the murderer must be innocent only because
we don't have all the murder weapons? What sort of crazy garbage is
that?

>With this in mind, let us now turn to the
>Harmon/Keren/McCarthy/McVay/Stein  post in response to this simple
>challenge of mine.

It's not a challenge, it's the ravings of a deluded moron.

Just because you've decided you won't accept all the evidence but for
what you can't quite have therefore you've decided it didn't happen?

So what? You're a deluded moron. Sane people seem to find everything
in order, we are in no position to provide you with medical
assistance.

Even when presented with photos, blueprints, remnants of gas chambers
each is not good enough for Raven. What the hell does he and his
fellow lunatics want? To be transported back in time to personally
eyewitness the gassings? What good would that be? It would *still*
only be an eyewitness testimony.

>I NEVER SAID that "the Holocaust never happened." This is,
>however, a common ploy designed to portray Holocaust revisionists in an
>unfavorable light.

Many so-called "Holocaust revisionists" do indeed completely and
utterly deny the holocaust ever happened and claim that the Nazis had
absolutely no program to murder millions of civilians. Live with it.

And look at this crap, in the *VERY NEXT PARAGRAPH* Raven says...

>Aside from McCarthy's unfounded assertion about what reputable historians
>believe, let us note in passing his definition of "Holocaust" as being the
>"deliberate murder" of millions of people. This would imply that McCarthy
>has 1) proof that there was a murder, 2) that the murder was deliberate,
>and 3) that six million Jews (and others) were the victims. In fact, he
>has no such thing. But we are interested in the gas chambers, so let us
>move on.



GOSH, I can't IMAGINE why anyone would claim you deny the Holocaust,
how unfair of them!



This is too idiotic to continue with...no even barely sane person
would be misled by these ravings.

--------------------

  "..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered
   from outside.  They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, 
   well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined 
   with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and 
   the benches are numbered.  The prisoners are told that they are to 
   be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments.  They must therefore 
   completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
   disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
   clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
   be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
   proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through 
   a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
   shower bath.  In this room are three large pillars, into which
   certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room.
   When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room,
   the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are
   dropped down into the pillars.  As soon as the containers touch 
   the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put
   the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens
   on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then
   the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first
   floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh
   corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed
   for the whole process.)  The job itself is performed by Jewish
   prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
      The results of this `resettlement action' to date: 500,000 Jews
   Current capacity of the `resettlement action' ovens: 10,000
   in twenty-four hours."
                  --from report entitled "Resettlement of Jews"
                    written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch
                    for SS-Col. M. von Herff and RF-SS H. Himmler, after
                    inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.  This
                    excerpt from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by
                    Gerald Fleming, ISBN 0-520-05103-3.

--------------------

"Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed using three
vans, without any faults occuring in the vehicles."

	Dr August Becker on 5 June 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Rauff

--------------------

"Apart from that I gave orders that all men should stand as far away
as possible from van during the gassings, so that their health would
not be damaged by any escaping gases. I would like to take this
opportunity to draw your attention to the following: Some of the
Kommandos are using their own men to unload the vans after the
gassing. I have made commanders of the Sonderkommandos in question
aware of the enormous psychological and physical damage this work can
do to the men, if not immediately then at a later stage."

	Dr August Becker on 16 May 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuherer Rauff

--------------------

Einsatzgruppe C
Standort Kiev

During my visit to Kumhof I also saw the extermination installation,
with the lorry which had been set up for killing by means of motor
exhaust fumes. The head of the Kommando told me that this method,
however, was very unreliable, as the gas build-up was very irregular
and was often insufficient for killing.

	Rudolf Hoss, Commandant of Auschwitz, on a visit to Chelmno
	on 16 September 1942

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 21263 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb misc.test:38850 alt.revisionism:21263
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Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!kzoo!k044477
From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
Subject: Is it denial? (was Reply to 'Best Evidence')
Message-ID: <1995Jan10.180129.5297@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: Kalamazoo College, Kalamazoo MI 49006
References: 
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 18:01:29 GMT
Lines: 174

Greg Raven has responded to all ten points of the "May 4th" posting
simultaneously.  I note in passing that he has forfeited any claim to
desiring debate which is manageable, focused, and educational to all.
In the original posting, we wrote:

   We ask Mr. Raven to please apply himself first to document one.
   When he has finished attempting to convince his audience that
   document one does not suit his needs, then he may proceed on to
   document two, and so on until he reaches the end of the list.  We
   would hope that Mr. Raven would limit his answers to one document
   per posted article, to facilitate any further discussion that may
   take place, and that he would enumerate his points, as we have
   done here.  As we say - we welcome focus.

Mr. Raven instead has responded to the whole thing in one big article.
Argh.  Confusion is, as always, the tool of the revisionist; I suppose
I should be used to that by now, but it still annoys me.

Because my time is limited, I'm simply going to deal with the point that
is most specifically directed at me in this article.  After Mr. Raven
responds to the question I pose, I'll tackle another few sections of his
reply, and so on.

Tempting though it is to simply respond to it all at once, I actually
do have interest in what Mr. Raven has to say on several issues, and
mass-replying will reduce the odds that I'll get a response on those.
I shall resist the temptation.


The point that is most specifically directed to me concerns the
question:  "is Mr. Raven a Holocaust-denier?"  That is, does he deny
that the Holocaust happened?

Mr. Raven has claimed in the past that he doesn't _deny_ the Holocaust
happened, he simply wants to change the definition of the word
"Holocaust."  He wants to make it mean something other than what it
means now, so therefore, somehow, he's not really denying what it
_does_ mean now, because he just wants to improve what it does mean
now.  I guess.

Call me stodgy, but I don't really buy that logic.  I can redefine
"plus" to mean "minus" and then claim that I'm not really _denying_
that two plus two is four, I'm just _redefining_ it.

Anyway, Mr. Raven's latest attempt to squirm out of this contradiction
is to claim that he is only attempting to "redefine" the part of the
Holocaust that deals with gas chambers.  He originally defined the word
to mean "the murder of six million Jews as a central act of state by
the Nazis during the Second World War, many in gas chambers," which
seems an acceptable definition to me.

Okay, now pay attention, the arguments get very twisted here.

Back on May 4th, 1994, I wrote:

   Then...he denies the Holocaust happened.  He writes that "there is
   no evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy of exterminating
   the Jews."  He writes that "there is no evidence that there were
   homicidal gas chambers for murder [sic] Jews."  And he writes that
   "the figure of six million Jewish victims is an exaggeration."

Mr. Raven, bafflingly, somehow --

Wait.  First, take a deep breath.  This is almost too baffling to
comprehend.  Inhale, forget the rules of logic, exhale.  Here we go.

Mr. Raven extracts my second sentence from the above, the one concerning
gas chambers.  He ignores the first and the third, which concern the
Nazi plan and the number of victims.

He then accuses me of _only_ being concerned with the gas chambers, as
if _I_ were the one who ignored the facts that Mr. Raven denied the
Nazi plan and the number of victims.  As if _I_ were the one who
originally defined the Holocaust to be "blah blah blah, many in gas
chambers."  As if the first and third sentences did not exist!

He says that I have, quote, "inextricably bound up 'gas chambers' with
'Holocaust.'"  Somehow he managed to miss the fact that I referred also
to his denying the Nazi plan to kill Jews, and his denying the number
of victims as being in the neighborhood of six million.  Somehow he
managed to steal my middle sentence and pretend that the first and
the third do not exist:

   Apparently, for McCarthy there can be no "Holocaust" without gas
   chambers, which means for him that none of the suffering of Jews who
   were evicted from their homes, shot in the Eastern territories,
   robbed, worked to death in labor camps, or otherwise mistreated is
   worth mentioning:  those who did not die in a Nazi gas chamber are
   beneath his consideration.

Absolute nonsense.  I'm not the one who brought up the gas chambers in
the first place -- Raven chose to append that clause to his definition
of the Holocaust.  In fact, I would certainly not have included that in
my definition.  I define it more broadly than most people:  I think the
word has grown to include more than the Jewish victims (I realize that
I'm almost alone in thinking this way).  And I surely will be the first
to tell you that the victims of the Einsatzgruppen and of general
starvation and overwork were as much victims of the Holocaust as were
those in the gas chambers.

On the contrary, _Raven_ is the one who's been insisting, these last
months, that he will not even look at evidence unless it specifically
mentions gas chambers.

He follows this amazingly misdirected diatribe with a sentence intended
to be ironic, I think.

   McCarthy is more of a "Holocaust deniar" than virtually all the
   revisionists I know, and I know most of them.

Unbelievable.

Anyway, dear reader, I think I've given you some context for what Raven
has said here.

Now, in the spirit of aikido, I'm going to use Mr. Raven's attack
against him, not by countering it but by extending it.

Ahem.

Mr. Raven, you have said that you do not deny the Holocaust, that you
only deny that Jews were exterminated _en_masse_ in gas chambers.
Presumably you would prefer to be called a Holocaust _revisionist_,
and that you are revising only that fact.

But are you revising only that fact?

Mr. Raven, you yourself have defined the Holocaust -- in its current,
unrevised meaning -- as "the murder of six million Jews as a central
act of state by the Nazis during the Second World War, many in gas
chambers."

Will your new definition of the Holocaust be "the murder of six million
Jews as a central act of state by the Nazis during the Second World
War, _none_ in gas chambers"?

Or do you also deny the murder of approximately six million Jews as a
central act of state by the Nazis?  (Let's call it a minimum of five
million, since the lowest estimate from any respectable historian is
about 5.1 million.  If you say five million, I won't quibble.)

If you do not deny that the Nazis slaughtered five to six million
civilian Jews as a central act of state, then I will be happy to
apologize to you, Mr. Raven, for calling you a Holocaust-denier,
because that term would be at least of questionable applicability,
and because other terms would be more appropriate.  If you do not
deny it, I will thenceforth refer to you as a "Holocaust revisionist"
and/or a "gas chamber denier."  Or "deniar."  Whichever you prefer.

Come to think of it, you may wish to simply subtract the number
killed in gas chambers from the overall total.  Since about 1.1
million Jews were gassed at Auschwitz and 1.5 to 2.0 million at
the Reinhard camps, with relatively small numbers elsewhere, your
total will then be more like two to three million.

I would indeed find the term "Holocaust revisionist" appropriate
for someone who denies that the gas chambers existed, but accepts
the fact that the Nazis did deliberately exterminate, through
overwork, starvation, mass shootings, and other methods, two to
three civilian Jews, simply because they were Jewish, as a central
act of state.

But if you do deny that fact, Mr. Raven, then you are denying more
than simply the gas chambers.  And, by representing yourself as
holding more-benign beliefs than you actually hold, you have tried
to deceive people.

Please make it clear for me whether you agree that the Nazis, as a
central act of state, murdered approximately six million Jews.

Thank you.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 I speak only for myself.

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