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Article 21053 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
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Subject: What is "Holocaust denial"
Date: Fri, 06 Jan 1995 08:23:19 -0800
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What is "Holocaust Denial"?

In recent years, more and more attention has been devoted to the supposed
danger of "Holocaust denial." Politicians, newspapers and television warn
about the growing influence of those who reject the Holocaust story that
some six million European Jews were systematically exterminated during the
Second World War, most of them in gas chambers.

In several countries, including Israel, France, Germany and Austria,
"Holocaust denial" is against the law, and "deniers" have been punished
with stiff fines and prison sentences. Some frantic Jewish community
leaders are calling for similar government measures in North America
against so-called "deniers." In Canada, David Matas, Senior Counsel for
the "League for Human Rights" of the Zionist B'nai B'rith organization,
says: (note 1)

The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews, including two million
children. Holocaust denial is a second murder of those same six million.
First their lives were extinguished; then their deaths. A person who
denies the Holocaust becomes part of the crime of the Holocaust itself.

Often overlooked in this controversy is the crucial question: Just what
constitutes "Holocaust denial"?

Six Million?

Should someone be considered a "Holocaust denier" because he does not
believe -- as Matas and others insist -- that six million Jews were killed
during World War II? This figure was cited by the International Military
Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945-1946. It found that "the policy pursued [by
the German government] resulted in the killing of six million Jews, of
which four million were killed in the extermination institutions." (note
2)

Yet if that is so, then several of the most prominent Holocaust historians
could be regarded as "deniers." Professor Raul Hilberg, author of the
standard reference work, The Destruction of the European Jews, does not
accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all
causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution,
likewise did not accept the six million figure. He estimated the figure of
Jewish wartime dead might be as high as 4.6 million, but admitted that
this was conjectural due to a lack of reliable information.

Human Soap?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that the Nazis didn't use
Jewish fat to make soap? After examining all the evidence (including an
actual bar of soap supplied by the Soviets), the Nuremberg Tribunal
declared in its Judgment that "in some instances attempts were made to
utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial
manufacture of soap." (note 3)

In 1990, though, Israel's official "Yad Vashem" Holocaust memorial agency
"rewrote history" by admitting that the soap story was not true.
"Historians have concluded that soap was not made from human fat. When so
many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give them something to
use against the truth?," said Yad Vashem official Shmuel Krakowski. (note
4)

Wannsee Conference?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he does not accept that the January
1942 "Wannsee conference" of German bureaucrats was held to set or
coordinate a program of systematic mass murder of Europe's Jews? If so,
Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer must be wrong -- and a "Holocaust
denier" -- because he recently declared: "The public still repeats, time
after time, the silly story that at Wannsee the extermination of the Jews
was arrived at." In Bauer's opinion, Wannsee was a meeting but "hardly a
conference" and "little of what was said there was executed in detail."
(note 5)

Extermination Policy?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that there was no order by
Hitler to exterminate Europe's Jews? There was a time when the answer
would have been yes. Holocaust historian Raul Hilberg, for example, wrote
in the 1961 edition of his study, The Destruction of the European Jews,
that there were two Hitler orders for the destruction of Europe's Jews:
the first given in the spring of 1941, and the second shortly thereafter.
But Hilberg removed mention of any such order from the revised,
three-volume edition of his book published in 1985. (note 6) As Holocaust
historian Christopher Browning has noted: (note 7)

In the new edition, all references in the text to a Hitler decision or
Hitler order for the "Final Solution" have been systematically excised.
Buried at the bottom of a single footnote stands the solitary reference:
"Chronology and circumstances point to a Hitler decision before the summer
ended." In the new edition, decisions were not made and orders were not
given.

A lack of hard evidence for an extermination order by Hitler has
contributed to a controversy that divides Holocaust historians into
"intentionalists" and "functionalists." The former contend that there was
a premeditated extermination policy ordered by Hitler, while the latter
hold that Germany's wartime "final solution" Jewish policy evolved at
lower levels in response to circumstances. But the crucial point here is
this: notwithstanding the capture of literally tons of German documents
after the war, no one can point to documentary evidence of a wartime
extermination order, plan or program. This was admitted by Professor
Hilberg during his testimony in the 1985 trial in Toronto of
German-Canadian publisher Ernst Zuendel. (note 8)

Auschwitz

So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Surely a claim that most
Auschwitz inmates died from disease and not systematic extermination in
gas chambers would be "denial." But perhaps not. Jewish historian Arno J.
Mayer, a Princeton University professor, wrote in his 1988 study Why Did
the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in History: " . . . From
1942 to 1945, certainly at Auschwitz, but probably overall, more Jews were
killed by so-called 'natural' causes than by 'unnatural' ones." (note 9)

Even estimates of the number of people who died at Auschwitz -- allegedly
the main extermination center -- are no longer clear cut. At the postwar
Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans exterminated four
million people at Auschwitz. (note 10) Until 1990, a memorial plaque at
Auschwitz read: "Four Million People Suffered and Died Here at the Hands
of the Nazi Murderers Between the Years 1940 and 1945." (note 11) During a
1979 visit to the camp, Pope John Paul II stood before this memorial and
blessed the four million victims.

Is it "Holocaust denial" to dispute these four million deaths? Not today.
In July 1990, the Polish government's Auschwitz State Museum, along with
Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, conceded that the four million
figure was a gross exaggeration, and references to it were accordingly
removed from the Auschwitz monument. Israeli and Polish officials
announced a tentative revised toll of 1.1 million Auschwitz dead. (note
12) In 1993, French Holocaust researcher Jean-Claude Pressac, in a
much-discussed book about Auschwitz, estimated that altogether about
775,000 died there during the war years. (note 13)

Professor Mayer acknowledges that the question of how many really died in
Auschwitz remains open. In Why Did the Heavens Not Darken? he wrote (p.
366):

. . . Many questions remain open . . . All in all, how many bodies were
cremated in Auschwitz? How many died there all told? What was the
national, religious, and ethnic breakdown in this commonwealth of victims?
How many of them were condemned to die a 'natural' death and how many were
deliberately slaughtered? And what was the proportion of Jews among those
murdered in cold blood among these gassed? We have simply no answers to
these questions at this time.

Gas Chambers

What about denying the existence of extermination "gas chambers"? Here
too, Mayer makes a startling statement (on page 362 of his book): "Sources
for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable." While
Mayer believes that such chambers did exist at Auschwitz, he points out
that

most of what is known is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and
executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and
bystanders. This testimony must be screened carefully, since it can be
influenced by subjective factors of great complexity.

Hoess Testimony

One example of this might be the testimony of Rudolf Hoess, an SS officer
who served as commandant of Auschwitz. In its Judgment, the Nuremberg
International Military Tribunal quoted at length from his testimony to
support its findings of extermination. (note 14)

It is now well established that Hoess' crucial testimony, as well as his
so-called "confession" (which was also cited by the Nuremberg Tribunal),
are not only false, but were obtained by beating the former commandant
nearly to death. (note 15) Hoess' wife and children were also threatened
with death and deportation to Siberia. In his statement -- which would not
be admissible today in any United States court of law -- Hoess claimed the
existence of an extermination camp called "Wolzek." In fact, no such camp
ever existed. He further claimed that during the time that he was
commandant of Auschwitz, two and a half million people were exterminated
there, and that a further half million died of disease. (note 16) Today no
reputable historian upholds these figures. Hoess was obviously willing to
say anything, sign anything and do anything to stop the torture, and to
try to save himself and his family.

Forensic Investigations

In his 1988 book, Professor Mayer calls for "excavations at the killing
sites and in their immediate environs" to determine more about the gas
chambers. In fact, such forensic studies have been made. The first was
conducted in 1988 by American execution equipment consultant, Fred A.
Leuchter, Jr. He carried out an on-site forensic examination of the
alleged gas chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek to determine if
they could have been used to kill people as claimed. After a careful study
of the alleged killing facilities, Leuchter concluded that the sites were
not used, and could not have been used, as homicidal gas chambers.
Furthermore, an analysis of samples taken by Leuchter from the walls and
floors of the alleged gas chambers showed either no or minuscule traces of
cyanide compound, from the active ingredient of Zyklon B, the pesticide
allegedly used to murder Jews at Auschwitz. (note 17)

A confidential forensic examination (and subsequent report) commissioned
by the Auschwitz State Museum and conducted by Institute of Forensic
Research in Krakow has confirmed Leuchter's finding that minimal or no
traces of cyanide compound can be found in the sites alleged to have been
gas chambers. (note 18)

The significance of this is evident when the results of the forensic
examination of the alleged homicidal gas chambers are compared with the
results of the examination of the Auschwitz disinfestation facilities,
where Zyklon B was used to delouse mattresses and clothing. Whereas no or
only trace amounts of cyanide were found in the alleged homicidal gas
chambers, massive traces of cyanide were found in the walls and floor in
the camp's disinfestation delousing chambers.

Another forensic study has been carried out by German chemist Germar
Rudolf. On the basis of his on-site examination and analysis of samples,
the certified chemist and doctoral candidate concluded: "For
chemical-technical reasons, the claimed mass gassings with hydrocyanic
acid in the alleged 'gas chambers' in Auschwitz did not take place . . .
The supposed facilities for mass killing in Auschwitz and Birkenau were
not suitable for this purpose . . ." (note 19)

Finally, there is the study of Austrian engineer Walter Lueftl, a
respected expert witness in numerous court cases, and former president of
Austria's professional association of engineers. In a 1992 report he
called the alleged mass extermination of Jews in gas chambers "technically
impossible." (note 20)

Discredited Perspective

So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Those who advocate criminal
persecution of "Holocaust deniers" seem to be still living in the world of
1946 where the Allied officials of the Nuremberg Tribunal have just
pronounced their verdict. But the Tribunal's findings can no longer be
assumed to be valid. Because it relied so heavily on such untrustworthy
evidence as the Hoess testimony, some of its most critical findings are
now discredited.

For purposes of their own, powerful special interest groups desperately
seek to keep substantive discussion of the Holocaust story taboo. One of
the ways they do this is by purposely mischaracterizing revisionist
scholars as "deniers." But the truth can't be suppressed forever: There is
a very real and growing controversy about what actually happened to
Europe's Jews during World War II.

Let this issue be settled as all great historical controversies are
resolved: through free inquiry and open debate in our journals, newspapers
and classrooms.

NOTES

1.  Globe and Mail (Toronto), Jan. 22, 1992.

2.  Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military
Tribunal (IMT "blue series"), Vol. 22, p. 496.

3.  IMT "blue series," Vol. 22, p. 496.

4.  Globe and Mail (Toronto), April 25, 1990; See also: M. Weber, "Jewish
Soap," The Journal of Historical Review, Summer 1991.

5.  Canadian Jewish News (Toronto), Jan. 30, 1992.

6.  See: Barbara Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die: Report of the
Evidence in the Canadian "False News" Trial of Ernst Zuendel (Toronto:
Samisdat, 1992), pp. 192, 300, 349.

7.  "The Revised Hilberg," Simon Wiesenthal Annual, Vol. 3, 1986, p. 294.

8.  B. Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die (Toronto: 1992), pp. 24-25.

9.  A. Mayer, Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in
History (Pantheon, 1988), p. 365.

10.  Nuremberg document 008-USSR.; IMT "blue series," Vol. 39, pp. 241, 261.

11.  B. Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die (Toronto: 1992), p. 441.

12.  Y. Bauer, "Fighting the Distortions," Jerusalem Post (Israel), Sept.
22, 1989; Auschwitz Deaths Reduced to a Million," Daily Telegraph
(London), July 17, 1990; "Poland Reduces Auschwitz Death Toll Estimate to
1 Million," The Washington Times, July 17, 1990.

13.   J.-C. Pressac, Les Crimetoires d'Auschwitz: La machinerie du meurtre
de masse (Paris: CNRS, 1993). See also: R. Faurisson, "Jean-Claude
Pressac's New Auschwitz Book," The Journal of Historical Review, Jan.-Feb.
1994, p. 24.

14.  IMT "blue series," Vol. 22, p. 485; Nuremberg document 3868-PS
(USA-819), in IMT "blue series," Vol. 33, pp. 275-279.

15.  Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235-237; C.
Hitchens, "Whose History is it?," Vanity Fair (New York), Dec. 1993, p.
117.

16.  See: R. Faurisson, "How the British Obtained the Confession of Rudolf
Hoess," The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403.

17.  A deluxe edition of The Leuchter Report is available from the IHR for
$20.00, plus $2.00 shipping.

18.  The complete text of this report was published in English in The
Journal of Historical Review, Summer 1991.

19.  G. Rudolf, Gutachten ueber die Bildung und Nachweisbarkeit von
Cyanidverbindungen in den "Gaskammern" von Auschwitz (London: 1993). See:
The Journal of Historical Review, Nov.-Dec. 1993, pp. 25-26.

20.  "The 'Lueftl Report'," The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1992-93.

4/94

This article is adapted from an essay originally distributed in 1992 by
The Canadian Free Speech League (P.O. Box 40143, Victoria, B.C. V8W 3N3),
a federally incorporated, not-for-profit association that has helped with
the legal defense of Ernst Zuendel, among others. 

Send $2 for a packet of literature and full listing of books and audio-
and video-tapes. Or, order more copies of this leaflet, postpaid, at the
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-- 
Greg Raven
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http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
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Article 21078 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Old Nonsense Again (was: Re: What is "Holocaust denial")
Date: 6 Jan 1995 21:39:58 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Greg Raven  wrote:

This is just unbelievable. No matter how many times this stupidity
has been refuted, he's still posting it. Gannon started with this
stuff 3-4 years ago, it was refuted then, and Raven just goes on,
posting exactly the same text. This is just incredible.

# The significance of this is evident when the results of the forensic
# examination of the alleged homicidal gas chambers are compared with the
# results of the examination of the Auschwitz disinfestation facilities,
# where Zyklon B was used to delouse mattresses and clothing. Whereas no or
# only trace amounts of cyanide were found in the alleged homicidal gas
# chambers, massive traces of cyanide were found in the walls and floor in
# the camp's disinfestation delousing chambers.

It has been posted here - perhaps hundreds of times - that there is
a smaller amount of cyanide compounds at the remains of the gas
chambers that at the delousing chambers for two reasons:

1) Under the same concentration of HCN (the cyanide gas Zyklon-B
   releases), people die in 10-20 minutes, while delousing takes
   many hours. Therefore, the walls of the delousing chambers
   were exposed to the gas for a far longer period of time, 
   resulting in the formation of more compounds.

2) The delousing chambers are intact, while some of the samples
   have been taken from homicidal gas chambers that were dynamited
   by the fleeing SS. The walls and floors of the gas chambers
   have been exposed to the elements for 40 years before the
   samples were taken. Much of the cyanic compounds withered
   away during those 40 years.


Raven also mentions Luftel's "research", which is as ridiculous
as Leuchter's. For instance, Luftel claims that exhaust fumes from 
a 500-BHP diesel engine will not kill people closed in a chamber. 
In 1957, a group of British scientists exposed animals to the
exhaust of a 6-BHP diesel engines, which resulted in the animals
dying. See "The Toxicity of Fumes from a Diesel Engine Under Four
Different Running Conditions", by Pattle et al., British Journal of 
Industrial Medicine, 1957, Vol 14, p.  47-55. It is very easy to
tune a diesel engine to release a large amount of toxic fumes.

All this has been posted here many times. 


-Danny Keren.

Article 21089 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: What is "Holocaust denial"
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Fri, 06 Jan 1995 08:23:19 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 22:49:09 GMT
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>What is "Holocaust Denial"?

An opportunity for Greg Raven and friends to work the suckers instead
of earning an honest living?

Am I close?

>The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews, including two million
>children. Holocaust denial is a second murder of those same six million.
>First their lives were extinguished; then their deaths.

I am staggered that these lines appeared in your note.

But I must say you're absolutely correct.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 21098 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ah787@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Bill Stuart)
Subject: Re: What is "Holocaust denial"
Message-ID: 
Sender: ah787@freenet3.carleton.ca (Bill Stuart)
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Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 18:59:44 GMT
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In a previous posting, Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) writes:
> What is "Holocaust Denial"?

	Excellent! I could not have hoped to see a better example of fact
twsting inmy life! This should be framed and you should be awarded.

> Six Million?
> 
> Yet if that is so, then several of the most prominent Holocaust historians
> could be regarded as "deniers." Professor Raul Hilberg, author of the
> standard reference work, The Destruction of the European Jews, does not
> accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all
> causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution,
> likewise did not accept the six million figure. He estimated the figure of
> Jewish wartime dead might be as high as 4.6 million, but admitted that
> this was conjectural due to a lack of reliable information.

	No one has ever claimed that six million jews were murdered. They
claimed that roughly six million jews were murdered. With a 15 percent
variance in the estimates, that ranges between 4.8 million and 7.2
million. Good try, though. These men are not holocaust deniers.

> Human Soap?
> 
> In 1990, though, Israel's official "Yad Vashem" Holocaust memorial agency
> "rewrote history" by admitting that the soap story was not true.
> "Historians have concluded that soap was not made from human fat. When so
> many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give them something to
> use against the truth?," said Yad Vashem official Shmuel Krakowski. (note
> 4)

	Perhaps the israelies are more interested in truth than fairy
tales? Perhaps they did research and determined that this was not fact,
and that including it as such would be dishonorable to the dead.

> Wannsee Conference?
> 
> Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he does not accept that the January
> 1942 "Wannsee conference" of German bureaucrats was held to set or
> coordinate a program of systematic mass murder of Europe's Jews? If so,
> Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer must be wrong -- and a "Holocaust
> denier" -- because he recently declared: "The public still repeats, time
> after time, the silly story that at Wannsee the extermination of the Jews
> was arrived at." In Bauer's opinion, Wannsee was a meeting but "hardly a
> conference" and "little of what was said there was executed in detail."
> (note 5)

	That also means nothing. There were thousands of meetings in world
war 2. The extermination policy of the jews was also not arrived at the
surrender of japan, does that mean japan was not involved in the war?

> contributed to a controversy that divides Holocaust historians into
> "intentionalists" and "functionalists." The former contend that there was
> a premeditated extermination policy ordered by Hitler, while the latter
> hold that Germany's wartime "final solution" Jewish policy evolved at
> lower levels in response to circumstances. But the crucial point here is
> this: notwithstanding the capture of literally tons of German documents
> after the war, no one can point to documentary evidence of a wartime
> extermination order, plan or program. This was admitted by Professor
> Hilberg during his testimony in the 1985 trial in Toronto of
> German-Canadian publisher Ernst Zuendel. (note 8)

	Well, it's kind of in mein kampf...


> Auschwitz
> 
> So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Surely a claim that most
> Auschwitz inmates died from disease and not systematic extermination in
> gas chambers would be "denial." But perhaps not. Jewish historian Arno J.
> Mayer, a Princeton University professor, wrote in his 1988 study Why Did
> the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in History: " . . . From
> 1942 to 1945, certainly at Auschwitz, but probably overall, more Jews were
> killed by so-called 'natural' causes than by 'unnatural' ones." (note 9)

	That makes no difference. If i was to expose you to bubonic
plague, and you died, that would still be murder. In canadian law, if i
was to inject you or expose you to a dangerous disease, and you died
within 2 years, i would be up on murder charges. 

> Even estimates of the number of people who died at Auschwitz -- allegedly
> the main extermination center -- are no longer clear cut. At the postwar
> Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans exterminated four
> million people at Auschwitz. (note 10) Until 1990, a memorial plaque at
> Auschwitz read: "Four Million People Suffered and Died Here at the Hands
> of the Nazi Murderers Between the Years 1940 and 1945." (note 11) During a
> 1979 visit to the camp, Pope John Paul II stood before this memorial and
> blessed the four million victims.
> 
> Is it "Holocaust denial" to dispute these four million deaths? Not today.
> In July 1990, the Polish government's Auschwitz State Museum, along with
> Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, conceded that the four million
> figure was a gross exaggeration, and references to it were accordingly
> removed from the Auschwitz monument. Israeli and Polish officials
> announced a tentative revised toll of 1.1 million Auschwitz dead. (note
> 12) In 1993, French Holocaust researcher Jean-Claude Pressac, in a
> much-discussed book about Auschwitz, estimated that altogether about
> 775,000 died there during the war years. (note 13)

	I'll have to look into this one.

> Gas Chambers
> 
> What about denying the existence of extermination "gas chambers"? Here
> too, Mayer makes a startling statement (on page 362 of his book): "Sources
> for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable." While
> Mayer believes that such chambers did exist at Auschwitz, he points out
> that
> 
> most of what is known is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and
> executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and
> bystanders. This testimony must be screened carefully, since it can be
> influenced by subjective factors of great complexity.

	Yet people who didn't graduate from grade 8 expect their material
to be accepted as gospel.

> Hoess Testimony
> It is now well established that Hoess' crucial testimony, as well as his
> so-called "confession" (which was also cited by the Nuremberg Tribunal),
> are not only false, but were obtained by beating the former commandant
> nearly to death. (note 15) Hoess' wife and children were also threatened
> with death and deportation to Siberia. In his statement -- which would not
> be admissible today in any United States court of law -- Hoess claimed the
> existence of an extermination camp called "Wolzek." In fact, no such camp
> ever existed. He further claimed that during the time that he was

	All camps were destroyed after the war and later rebuilt as
monuments, isn't that what you people keep saying? Can't have it both
ways. Perhaps that was one of the camps that was destroyed and never
rebuilt? 

> Forensic Investigations
> 
> In his 1988 book, Professor Mayer calls for "excavations at the killing
> sites and in their immediate environs" to determine more about the gas
> chambers. In fact, such forensic studies have been made. The first was
> conducted in 1988 by American execution equipment consultant, Fred A.
> Leuchter, Jr. He carried out an on-site forensic examination of the

	The same fred leutcher with no experience at all in toxology? The
smae fred leutcher who lied at zundel's trial about his relationship with
2 american prison gas chamber technicians?

> Discredited Perspective
> 
> So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Those who advocate criminal
> persecution of "Holocaust deniers" seem to be still living in the world of
> 1946 where the Allied officials of the Nuremberg Tribunal have just
> pronounced their verdict. But the Tribunal's findings can no longer be
> assumed to be valid. Because it relied so heavily on such untrustworthy
> evidence as the Hoess testimony, some of its most critical findings are
> now discredited.

	No, most of them are still intact. 

> For purposes of their own, powerful special interest groups desperately
> seek to keep substantive discussion of the Holocaust story taboo. One of
> the ways they do this is by purposely mischaracterizing revisionist
> scholars as "deniers." But the truth can't be suppressed forever: There is
> a very real and growing controversy about what actually happened to
> Europe's Jews during World War II.

	You are really full of shit, you know that? You may as well have
quoted barney.
 
> Let this issue be settled as all great historical controversies are
> resolved: through free inquiry and open debate in our journals, newspapers
> and classrooms.

	LEt's bring back flat eath theory too, shall we?


--
"To do nothing is as fatal as to do evil, but it is more cowardly. The
most unpardonable of mortal sins is inertia." -Eliphas Levi
"A chain of iron is easier to break than a chain of flowers"-Eliphas Levi

Article 21139 of alt.revisionism:
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From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Old Nonsense Again (was: Re: What is "Holocaust denial")
Date: 8 Jan 1995 00:57:35 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3end9v$9n3@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <3ekdbe$i26@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk4-02.ix.netcom.com

In <3ekdbe$i26@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes: 

>This is just unbelievable. No matter how many times this stupidity
>has been refuted, he's still posting it. Gannon started with this
>stuff 3-4 years ago, it was refuted then, and Raven just goes on,
>posting exactly the same text. This is just incredible.
>

I, for one< am pretty tired of Greg Raven using this Newsgroup as a 
dumping ground for his regurgitated leftovers from the JHR.  He can't be 
bothered to comment on the very precise rebuttals that have been 
thoughtfully provided here--he just keeps barfing up these 20K 
bombers--over and over and OVER again.

Get a life, Greg...
-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert
"Those who do not remember the past will be forced to relive it"
                                   Georges Santanya
I'm also on PRODIGY at GMHV19A@PRODIGY.COM

Article 21234 of alt.revisionism:
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From: pankiewicz@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl (Jerzy Pankiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is "Holocaust denial"
Date: 9 Jan 1995 10:13:10 +0100
Organization: Technical Univeristy of Wroclaw
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:

: accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all
: causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution,
Is this your real problem 6.0 vs. 5.1 milion? Or maybe even 4.6 milion.
Does it make Nazis more human?

: Extermination Policy?

: Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that there was no order by
: Hitler to exterminate Europe's Jews? There was a time when the answer
If Hitler didn't know about the Holocaust it was only because
he did't like to know and had the power to not allow to be informed.
He had also the power to stop the Holocaust.

: Auschwitz

: So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Surely a claim that most
: Auschwitz inmates died from disease and not systematic extermination in
: gas chambers would be "denial." But perhaps not. Jewish historian Arno J.
: Mayer, a Princeton University professor, wrote in his 1988 study Why Did
: the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in History: " . . . From
: 1942 to 1945, certainly at Auschwitz, but probably overall, more Jews were
: killed by so-called 'natural' causes than by 'unnatural' ones." (note 9)

: Even estimates of the number of people who died at Auschwitz -- allegedly
: the main extermination center -- are no longer clear cut. At the postwar
: Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans exterminated four
: million people at Auschwitz. (note 10) 
The four million  story was the Soviet idea . 


Until 1990, a memorial plaque at
: Auschwitz read: "Four Million People Suffered and Died Here at the Hands
: of the Nazi Murderers Between the Years 1940 and 1945." (note 11) 
I assure you that the Polish Communist Party wasn't in any way
influenced by Jews (at least since 1968)  to support the story.
It simply didn't like to be criticised in any way . The Auschwitz
Museum officials were state workers.


: Discredited Perspective

: So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? 
Certainly you and your crazy ideas about the war. Milions were
murdered by Nazis in Central and Eastern Europe, every place
was stained with blood and you are making very sophisticated
theories . What is your idea anyway - that  the Jews and the Poles
and other nations exterminated themselves or died from
an undefinite ilness - AIDS  or surfeit?

Those who advocate criminal
: persecution of "Holocaust deniers" seem to be still living in the world of
: 1946 where the Allied officials of the Nuremberg Tribunal have just
: pronounced their verdict. But the Tribunal's findings can no longer be
: assumed to be valid. Because it relied so heavily on such untrustworthy
: evidence as the Hoess testimony, some of its most critical findings are
: now discredited.

: For purposes of their own, powerful special interest groups desperately
: seek to keep substantive discussion of the Holocaust story taboo. 
I think that I can understand the difference between 'substantive
discussion' and your postings. Make some effort, maybe you
can discuss seriously?

: Let this issue be settled as all great historical controversies are
: resolved: through free inquiry and open debate in our journals, newspapers
: and classrooms.

Unfortunately you make much effort to make any serious discussion
impossible.

If you really like to know the truth come to Poland, ask people.
Tell them that you are 'a revisionist'. I hope they will teach
you some common sense.
Your arguments are exactly like the Soviet ones about the Katyn forest
crime. "The Poles run away to China, were murdered by Nazis,
Poles are crazy anti-Communists, don't believe them."

                       Jerzy Pankiewicz



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