The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/s/smith.bradley.r/1994/bs.0994


Archive/File: holocaust/usa/codoh bs.0994
Last-Modified: 1994/09/23

Article 15740 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Two questions for Bradley Smith
Date: 1 Sep 1994 03:10:02 -0400
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In article <341tbm$3fl@agate.berkeley.edu>, schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu
(Richard Schultz) writes:

re the language of Berg and Tim McCarthy about Jews:  I haven't really
followed it but I am aware that it has been intemperate.

Intemperate language always diminishes the possibility for a real exchange
of ideas, and undermines the possibility for understanding. It appears to
me that almost everyone who posts on alt.revisionism uses intemperate
language.


Article 15744 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Two questions for Bradley Smith
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 1 Sep 1994 03:10:02 -0400
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>re the language of Berg and Tim McCarthy about Jews:  I haven't really
>followed it but I am aware that it has been intemperate.
>
>Intemperate language always diminishes the possibility for a real exchange
>of ideas, and undermines the possibility for understanding. It appears to
>me that almost everyone who posts on alt.revisionism uses intemperate
>language.

In the context it's not comparable.

If the topic were black slavery in the US and someone trying to
promote the idea that blacks were somehow better off as slaves in the
US than left in Africa, and then began bellowing about "dumb niggers
can't hold a job anyhow" I think any reasonable person would quickly
come to suspect that person's motivations as possibly arising from a
dislike of blacks rather than a sincere interest in history.

For someone with a revisionist viewpoint, which often borders on wild
assertions involving international "zionist" conspiracies viciously
hoodwinking the world, even on its better days, the vast majority of
revisionists here sink so easily into anti-jewish cracks of the sort
one hears in the gutter. It is most discrediting and confirming of
anyone observer's worst suspicions.

Revisionists can say what they like, free country, but discrediting is
the right word. And I think you'd have to agree that credibility is
something you and CODOH and IHR have found most elusive, tho this is
perhaps the least of the reason why (as we've said before, you might
have to face the possibility that you are just 100% wrong.)

You'd have a lot of trouble, for example, finding anything so
intemperate said here about Germans, except inasmuch as it might be
derived from your own (questionable) thesis (ie, asserting that the
Nazis killed millions of Jews is not comparable to the gutter comments
since many simply believe this is historic fact, as much as saying
that Americans enslaved blacks in the 19th century.)

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 15758 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Two questions for Bradley Smith
Date: 1 Sep 1994 14:13:06 -0400
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In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) writes:

re:  the differences of interperate language, "revisionists" on one side
and "exterminationists" on the other--I appreciate the thrust of what you
are saying:

Revisionism, as a discipline, has two very heavy burndens to carry: one is
that (in our view) the formal apparat of each of the States that
institutionalized the orthodox gas chamber stories at Nurenburg, ran a
corrupt court, and

Two:  individuals and organizations which are self-avowedly anti-Semitic
and/or racist use revisionist scholarship to beat up on Jews with.  This
self-evident fact compromises revisionist research in a way that is very
destructive, not only to revisionists but in the end to both sides.

The "Lipstadts" and mainline Jewish organizations hold that revisionist
scholarship should be dismissed, suppressed and even censored because some
use it for demonstrably racist and anti-Semitic purposes.

I have a different view.  Revisionist research should be used as a tool to
remove from the Holocaust story everything in it that is false. When the
job is complete, and The Story is clean, there won't be anything left in
it to use as a weapon against Jews and those want to forward an
anti-Jewish agenda will have to go on to something else.

I am willing to be convinced that revisionist theory about the
gassing-chamber stories might prove to be wrong, but revisionist research
is not 100% wrong about everything. That's wishful thinking. The fear, or
the anxiety as I see it, among exterminationists, is that if they
acknowledge that revisionists are right on one point, there is the
possibility that the public will suspect that revisionists might be right
on a second point, a third and so on and this discussion will become a new
ballgame.

I don't know what to do about self-avowed antisemties who use the results
of revisionist research to attack Jews with here on alt.revisionism.  I
see that there is something called "moderated" newsgroups which are
governed by one or more parties. I suppose that means that any individual
who employs personal attacks against the author of a post or bigoted
language of any sort, could be denied access. Could that work? You know
more about these things than I do.

As it is, I don't believe alt.revisionism can get anywhere. There is too
much personal and political annimosity for a real exchange of ideas
(plenty of information gets posted) to get underway. It's not going to
improve. And not all the fault lies with those who are annoyed with Jews. 

So what's answer? I can work in this enviornment because I don't read the
other stuff and I've got a thick skin, but I imagine that the many,
perhaps thousands, of lurkers who read alt.revisionism and who have real
questions and real observations and who really want to find out what's
going on, will never reveal who they are to us because our behavior here
is so barbaric and juvenile.

What's the problem with a "moderated" discussion--no bigoted language and
no personally insulting language allowed?




Article 15791 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Two questions for Bradley Smith
Date: 2 Sep 1994 01:22:05 -0400
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In article ,
landpost@clark.net writes:

re "the only strategy:"  there's something to what you say but it's not
the whole story.  Those who buy the Holocaust story 100 percent are
probably sincere.  True believers, on any side of any issue including the
revisionists, are the most sincere of people. Their sincerity and belief
give them the "right" to talk to people any way they wish because they
hold doubters in contempt.

With regard to the word holohoaxers, it's insulting.  While The Story is
full of hoaxes, there's nothing that appears on alt.revisionism, that I
have noticed, that appears to be an attempt to perpetrate a hoax.  I
wouldn't encourage you to continue to use terms that are insulting by
definition with people to whom you wish to exchange ideas.  What the hell?

Out on the street we don't talk to each other that way because it would
lead immediately to fist fights and shootings. Computer daredevils are
free to express themselves anyway they wish because they're out of harm's
way.  

I would think it better to decide what it is you, we, want to do in this
exchange and do it.  For my part, I want to encourage open debate in an
enviornment of good will so I'm not going to bicker with professional
bickerers. It's not the few people who post here who count, but the
(perhaps) thousands who are observing the exchange and who, if they get
sound information presented in a civilized way, will each enter into the
debate over The Controversy in their own way in their own place.

I suppose we are all going to do it our own way, no matter which side of
The Controversy we are on.  But then, why not? 


Article 15809 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Smith on Lipstadt
Date: 2 Sep 1994 04:46:02 -0400
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Back about 1980 when I first began to survey revisionist literature some
of the first revisionist claims that caught my attention included
assertions that the Jewsih soap story was a fraud, that the high death
figures for Auschwitz were due primarily to desease, that the Wannsee
Conference had nothing to do with finalizing a policy for the murder of
the Jews, that it could not be shown that Hitler had ordered the murder of
the Jews, and that the human skin lamp shade story was an invention. Re
the Jewish soap story, the first issue of the Journal of Historical Review
contained an article that challenged the story.

I had no way to know how many of such stories revisionists were right
about, of if they were right about any of them.

A couple years later Professor Lipstadt published a letter in The Los
Angeles Times (16 May 1981) in which she wrote that the soap story was
only a "rumor," that the rumor had been "thoroughly investigated" after
the war and proven false, and that the Germans had not used the cadavers
of Jews or anyone else with which to manufacture soap.

I wrote Ms. Lipstadt, long before she or anyone else in these circles had
ever heard of me, asking her to tell me how I could get my hands on the
"thorough investigation" she mentioned in her letter. I didn't hear back
from her.

If anyone knows anything about this "thorough investigation" of the Jewish
soap "rumor," I would appreciate hearing from you. Otherwise I suppose I
will continue to suspect that the thorough investigation is as much of a
rumor as the soap story itself.

More recently Lipstadt has written (Denying the Holocaust, first ed.,
p188) that I suggest that "scholars and others who work in this field, all
of whom vigorously repudiate Holocaust denial, have been compelled to
admit the truth of deniers'claims.  [Smith writes] `We are told that it is
anti-Jewish to question orthodox assertions about German criminality. Yet
we find it is Jews themselves like Mayer, Bauer, Hier, Hilberg, Lipstadt
and others who [are] beginning to challenge the establishment Holocaust
story.'"

Lipstadt hasn't quite got it right.  She fails to emphasize that I wrote
that  that the named individuals are "BEGINNING" to challenge the
establishment Holocaust story.

I wrote beginning because I meant to say beginning. I didn't write that
Lipstadt or any of the others has become a full-fledged "denier." She has
"denied" one Holocaust story; by doing so she has joined a good number of
other Jewish historians who, together, following the revisionist lead in
each case, have made a "beginning" in the work that is need to bring The
Story into accord with the facts.

The Holocaust Story is not one story.  It is a vast collection of
different stories. Many of these individual Holocaust stories appear to be
demonstrbly false.  The Jewish soap horror appears to be one of them.

Jewish historians should be congratulated for doing a little work along
this line. 






Article 15811 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Smith on Bauer
Date: 2 Sep 1994 05:06:06 -0400
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Deborah Lipstadt is up in arms because I wrote that Yehuda Bauer (Hebrew
Univesity) is beginning to challenge the orthodox Holocaust story.

Jamie McCarthy writes that "Bauer has supposedly said that `tens of
thousands of testimonies have been proved false at Yad Vashem alone,'
which he never said and which he has specifically denied."

McCarthy insinuates that I agree that Bauer said that or even that I said
it, but I don't and I didn't.  This is McCarthy's invention.

One of the first revisionist assertions I came across around 1980 was the
one that ridiculed the idea that the so-called "final solution" for the
Jewish problem was finalized at the Wannsee Conference. 

In a story distributed by the Jewish Telegraphic Agency and widely
published during the last week in January 1992 (example: The Canadian
Jewish News, 30 January 92).  Bauer is quoted saying that while Wannsee
was a meeting it was "hardly a conference" and "little of what was said
there was executed in detail .... The public still repeats, time after
time, the silly story that at Wannsee the extermination of the Jews was
arrived at."

So Professor Yehuda Bauer of Hebrew University has come round to the
revisionist position on Wannsee.  That is, he "denies" its importance.
That is, he is "rewriting history."  He's a revisionisst.  Not much of a
one, I suppose, but there he is. With this "denial" he is "beginning" the
work that needs to be done to remove the fraud and falsehood from the
Holocaust story.

He should be congratulated, even if it took him twelve to maybe twenty
years longer to get around to it than it had taken the revisionists. Come
to think of it, what took him so long?  


Article 15812 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Smith on Hilberg:
Date: 2 Sep 1994 05:26:02 -0400
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Is Raul Hilberg (Destruction of the European Jews) "beginning" to revise
the orthodox Holocaust story? Sure.

In the 1968 edition of DEJ he wrote twice that Hitler had given an order
-- the "Hitler order" -- to off all the Jews of Europe.  In the 1985
definitive version of the book he had removed both assertions. That's a
"beginning."

It has been a standard assumption of the orthodox historians that there
was a German "plan" for the physical extermination of the European Jews. 
Raul might have thought so himself at one time but he has come to "deny"
it.

"... what began in 1941 was a process of destruction not planned in
advance, not organized centrally by any agency. There was no blueprint and
there was no budget for destructive measures. They were taken step by
step, one step at a time. This came about not so much as a plan being
carried out, but an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus-mind reading
by a far-flung bureaucracy (See: Newsday (Long Island NY), 23 February
1983)."

Maybe the Jamie McCarthys don't see the humor in this, but then I suspect
the Jamie McCarthys may have experienced their own incredible mind-reading
consensus with a far-flung buraucracy of academic exterminationists so
that when a Jewish Holocaust scholar changes his mind about little things
like The Great Hitler Demon Order To Kill All The Jews and that other
little item about Consensus Mind Reading By Individual Demented German
Officers strewn over half the continent of Europe --- maybe the Jamie
McCarthys don't see it as a "beginning" for Raul Hilberg but I do.   

Go get 'em Raul.





Article 15831 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Smith on Hilberg:
Date: 2 Sep 1994 10:18:06 -0400
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In article <3477ou$1rc@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
writes:

re Smith's point:  McCarthy had asked why I misrepresented Hilberg by
writing that he was "beginning" to "revise" the Holocaust story.  So I
have noted Hilberg's "revision" of the Hitler Order and "revision" of the
idea of The Master Plan.  

Hilberg's revision of these two matters followed years after
"revisionists" had "revised" them.  It is perfectly plain that the
Holocaust story changes year by year and on many of the primary stories
revisionists lead the way and the extablishment historians follow, like a
pig's nuts follow the pig (to use a Mexican rural expression).





Article 15872 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: RE: Smith on Lipstadt
Date: 3 Sep 1994 04:42:02 -0400
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re my assumption that the Jewish soap story is an integral part of the
Holocaust story:

While it's not part of the "genocide" story it is very much an integral
part of the larger "Holocaust" story and forwards what I call the "German
monster scam."

The scam about Jewish soap was indeed worked out by some scholars
(revisonists) challenging what other (establishment) scholars
happened--not so much to say themselves but allow the media to promote for
four decades.

I have two things I can send you by post if you want:  An ad I did using
an article written by Mark Weber for JHR, and an excerpt from a longer
manuscript that I published a couple years ago.  The story is pervasive in
media, particularly the print press, for the 40 years following the war.
I believe Gannon has made both available on his service.

I've never meant to imply that there is not an establishment Holocaust
story.

The reason I use the soap story regularly is that it's a simple story, and
at the same time a sound example of a false accusation of bestiality
against Germans, that it was never shown to be true, that nevertheless it
was promoted, primarily by mainline Jewish organizations, for decades,
that revisionists called it in long before Lipstadt, then Bauer, got into
line, and because its part of a pervasive pattern in this field.

I use it to suggest to newcomers one of the reasons that the Lipstadts and
Berenbaums and organizations such as the ADL are so obsessed with shutting
down an open debate on the Holocaust Controversy on campus and in media.

Their anxiety is based on the fact that it would be natural, if the public
were to become aware of the significance of a historic lie such as the
Jewish soap story, for the public to grow open to the suggestion that
there might be another significant whopper hiding in The Story someplace. 
One thing might lead to another.  Who knows what might come out in the
wash?

In any event, that's my take on the affair.  

-- Bradley Smith


Article 16085 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shrunken Heads
Date: 15 Sep 1994 03:46:04 -0400
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"Prien" informs us that the shrunken heads, ect., are on display, or at
least to be found, in the Museum of German History on Unter den Linden
near Friedrichstrasse. 

This is interesting news for me. First time I ever heard this. Has Prien
seen them for himself? Does he know if there is an illustrated catalogue
available?

What is meant by the statement that the "Museum is closed at this time
while the German government decides what to do with the exhibits since
they have a decidedly Communist slant to them"? I suppose I know what is
meant by the statement as it is, unless there is a note of irony in it.

Maybe Whiteway's organs are there. 

-- Bradley 


Article 16086 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: WHITEWAY:  BACKGROUND
Date: 15 Sep 1994 03:39:02 -0400
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1992:  Curtis R. Whiteway provides a cover letter for a fund raising
solicitation for the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council. 

18 January 93, Whiteway publishes a letter in the Brandeis University
student newspaper The Justice. He writes:

"My men and I liberated Hadamar .... We found the gas chambers. We found
the ovens on fire with bodies in them. Patients -- bodies who [sic] were
infected [sic] with gasoline in the arteries because they were half jews;
even German soldiers who were wounded and of no use to the war machine;
the bodies of children."

"We liberated a real horror camp of Mahldorf. The trophies were taken to
Nuremberg of lampshades made of human skin with tattoos, of the lamps of
human heads, of human male and female sexual organs preserved on the
shelves .... "

The American Legion (August 94)  He found "the graveyard for small
children that they had `euthanized' with gasoline" and the "lampshades of
human skin and body parts in SS trophy rooms" at Hadamar. He watched a man
use an iron scoop to demonstrate how the prisoners were forced to collect
the liquid fat of burned people and mix it with lye to make souvenir bars
of soap for visiting SS .... "

"For his heroism, Whiteway was flown to Israel to receive that country's
Medal of Valor."
  
In these last two outings Mr. Whiteway doesn't mention the "gas chamber"
that Michael Berenbaum credits him with. Maybe it slipped his mind. Maybe
he feels the human soap story is more credible than his gas chamber story.
It probably is. 

Someone has told Mr. Whiteway, or he has fantsized it, that surrogates
have asked me to debate him publicly and that I have declined to do so. I
know nothing about it. 

There's no word on where his captured "male and female sexual organs" went
after they were "taken to Nuremberg."

Exterminationists will tend to believe Mr. Whiteway's "eyewitness"
testimony.  Revisionists will tend to doubt it. Whiteway's testimony is
his, and if he is challenged to demonstrate it is true the burden is on
him and on those who believe him to do so. The burden is always on the one
who claims to have seen something awful, particularly when there is an
implicit charge of criminal behavior associated with it.

I don't believe Whiteway. I don't believe the exterminationists know
anything whatever about his gas chamber, or about his male and female
sexual organs that were taken to Nuremberg. Or any of the rest of it.

If anyone does, I'm all ears.


Article 16147 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bradley "Revisionist Scholar" Smith, II
Date: 15 Sep 1994 22:25:05 -0400
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In article <359it5$iov@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
writes:

Re what I wrote about Mueller:  

Keren quotes one sentence of my article.  It's impossible for the reader
to understand what I was doing. 

Filip Mueller is perhaps the primary internee "eyewitness" about the
alleged gas chambers at Birkenau. He is quoted repeatedly by
exterminationist historians. In my view Mueller's testimony is either
crazy or stupid or both.

The Mueller article is in one of seven issues of a newsletter I published
in 1984 / 85. It's called Prima Facie. Anyone can have the set of seven
issues who wants one if you will cover postage and handling. Each issue is
8 pages.

( At least one issue contains a major error of fact. I mention this for
the Danny Kerens among you. )

Mr. Keren appears to be one of those whose inner life is dependent for its
stability on the gas chamber rumors having been true. He's more than half
in love with the story and with many of the stories associated with it,
all sado-masochistic in nature, that make up such a large chunk of the
"eyewitness" testimony. 

It's as if Mueller is a cog in the mechanics of Keren's world view. If
Mueller is shown to be goofy, and Mueller is about as goofy as they come,
what would that imply for what's going on in Keren's own inner life?

Keren appears to be, inwardly, in an endless wrestling match, torn between
his passion for intellectual exactitude on one side, and a kind of unholy
passion for sado-masochistic fantasies on the other. With regard to the
Mueller affair, it looks like his twisted gonads got the better of him.

--  Bradley


Article 16153 of alt.revisionism:
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From: prien@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shrunken Heads
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 00:03:29 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
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X-To: BradleyRS 

Yes, I have seen the shrunken heads for myself in July, 1989.  The museum
is located in what was formerly East Berlin and the exhibits reflected the
political slant of the DDR.  If you want a photo of them, I will be happy
to send one to you - forward your address.


Article 16155 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: WHITEWAY:  BACKGROUND
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 15 Sep 1994 03:39:02 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <358tmm$2en@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 04:17:15 GMT
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>In these last two outings Mr. Whiteway doesn't mention the "gas chamber"
>that Michael Berenbaum credits him with.

Berenbaum doesn't "credit" him, whatever that means.

Berenbaum just uses a different quote than the two you've presented.

I'm not sure what your point is. You're trying to read an awful lot
into three different quotes that happen to cover three different
experiences.

>There's no word on where his captured "male and female sexual organs" went
>after they were "taken to Nuremberg."

Why should there be? Do you think there was any shortage of stuff like
this? Maybe it was just tossed into an unmarked grave or the trash or
down the toilet or whatever. There was a war on. They didn't send
homicide detectives to each site to clean things up, who knows who did
that at each and every site. Probably just local townspeople hired to
do the job once whatever major evidence was collected, photos taken,
whatever.

Again, so what? You impose a standard of order that certainly might
exist in, say, the OJ Simpson murder scene, but in devastated,
post-war Germany? You think every single little disgusting thing was
carefully catalogued etc? I don't. Who needs some dismembered,
unidentifiable (as to source) human sexual organs when you've got a
pile of 100,000 dead bodies outside or whatever? The point has been
amply made.

Or maybe Whiteway is a complete lunatic and compulsive liar and not
one single word out of his mouth is truth and Berenbaum is a fool for
ever repeating a word they guy has said.

Again, so what, really?

There's still all that other evidence that's much more compelling,
like internal memos between Nazi officers. Toss out Whiteway, you're
the only person I've ever seen bring him up on this group, and it's
unclear why exactly. It's not even in the top 100 most interesting
bits of evidence.

Your harping on this Whiteway thing smacks transparently of a hidden
agenda; to only talk about possibly questionable evidence soas to
distract or deceive regarding the rather incontrovertible evidence.

Show me I'm wrong.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16157 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Shrunken Heads
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 15 Sep 1994 03:46:04 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>What is meant by the statement that the "Museum is closed at this time
>while the German government decides what to do with the exhibits since
>they have a decidedly Communist slant to them"? I suppose I know what is
>meant by the statement as it is, unless there is a note of irony in it.

Um, what's your point here?

I was in Budapest around a year ago, the place was chock-a-block with
"communist" stuff and the Hungarians are tearing it all down and
changing it as fast as they can. Street signs (which hang on buildings
like through most of Europe) like "Karl Marx Circle" (in Hungarian of
course, what is it, ``Utca Karl Marx'' I think) typically have a big
red stripe through them, just enough showing so you can read them
(they know maps haven't been changed yet, etc) and a makeshift sign
with the new name hanging right next to it.

War memorials to Soviet Soldiers were being literally chipped away at
(one was a granite bas relief), too Russian/Soviet/Communist, they
want it all down. Do you blame them? They were quite simply occupied
and they despised every minute of it.

Meanwhile much of this disrupts tourist spots because that's kinda
where the Soviets stuck their stuff. Some entire, formerly public,
buildings have been just closed or emptied and handed over to a nearby
university or whatever. There's some "Karl Marx Institute" near the
Danube and the Chain Bridge which friends who had been there two years
earlier told me to go see because it's such a near campy relic of
Communism. It's not that any more, there's no point in visiting it, I
think it's just been handed over to the nearby university (the BME)
and they use it for classroom space (I may have some details wrong,
there wasn't much point spending any time on this once it was clear
things had changed.)

So what's your point? You're suspicious that some Museum set up under
the Soviets in East Germany is closed? Boy oh boy, I'm not, not in the
slightest. It costs money to keep these things open, a lot of money,
and I doubt Germany right now is in the mood to spend millions of
dollars per year to extol the glories of the people's socialist
revolution which is probably the main theme of the displays.

C'mon, you're not talking to naive people here.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16227 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shrunken Heads
Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:02:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article , prien@delphi.com writes:

Very interesting:  My mailing address:

B. Smith
PO Box 3267
Visalia CA 93278

Does the Museum provide documentation for how the shrunken heads came into
possession of the Soviets?

-- B.


Article 16229 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shrunken Heads
Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:09:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) writes:

Re what I'm getting at:  I suppose I'd like to see not only the photos,
but the documents revealing the origins of the shrunken heads. I have seen
photos of the heads. But I didn't know the heads themselves were still
around. And I haven't seen anything that tells me where they originated.

-- B.


Article 16246 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Shrunken Heads
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 16 Sep 1994 18:09:02 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <35d51u$15l@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 04:11:24 GMT
Lines: 40


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>Re what I'm getting at:  I suppose I'd like to see not only the photos,
>but the documents revealing the origins of the shrunken heads. I have seen
>photos of the heads. But I didn't know the heads themselves were still
>around. And I haven't seen anything that tells me where they originated.

Again, who cares really. I certainly don't.

No one has ever claimed that it was a policy of the Nazi govt to
produce shrunken heads, they're curios. But that's what you're after,
right? What was the policy of the Nazi govt during WWII?

Why do you dabble in such trivium when there are such huge issues to
be dealt with? Like the Poznan speech, the memos written between Nazi
officers during the war, etc.

The best I can deduce is that lacking any substantive argument to make
your point you've retreated into something that goes more like: If you
can show someone was lying about something, anything, maybe you can
convince people they were lying about everything without having to
deal with the obvious evidence''.

Proof by innuendo.

It won't work.

Well, no doubt you can find some weak-minded individuals who will fall
for it, but what's the point really? Such a weak point can be
disabused in a few sentences. One merely has to tear into the fallacy
that this all comes from one voice. It doesn't, and any fool will
realize that once handed that idea.



-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16253 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shrunken Heads
Date: 17 Sep 1994 04:47:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article <35dbov$62i@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
writes:

re the origin of the shrunken heads:  the Soviets submitted the heads to
the court at Nuremberg.  How do we know the heads originated with the
Nazis, not the Soviets?

This is a simple question on a simple matter. Only an obsessed twit would
feel nervous about it.

-- Bradley


Article 16255 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shrunken Heads
Date: 17 Sep 1994 04:53:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) writes:

re proof by inuenedo:  MY questions about the heads is not a presentation
of proof for or against anything. It's the exploitation of the heads
themselves, at Nuremberg, by the Soviets, that provide a background of
inuendo against --- the Germans. 

Those of you who are brilliant minds can deal with the great, important 
questions about the Holocaust story.  We old working men will ask the
little questions that don't amount to much.

-- Bradley 


Article 16256 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Segev on the Bogus Soap Story
Date: 17 Sep 1994 05:03:06 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article , golux@mcs.com (The
only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) writes:

re the fact that it is not clear whether the soap story is true or not: 
What we have here then is one Holocaust story that is still open to
debate.  

What does that do to Lipstadt's argument that one should not enter into an
exchange with revisionists because there can be "no other side" to the
Holocaust story?

--  Bradley


Article 16258 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Revisionists" Quiet About Hitler?!
Date: 17 Sep 1994 05:17:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article , wmcguire@world.std.com
(Wayne McGuire) writes:

re my ignorance of what Hitler was up to:  I've never wanted to get close
to the great killers of our century. None of them have interested me,
Hitler perhaps least of all. 

The truth or falsity of the gas chamber stories however does not appear to
rest on Hitler's brutal rhetoric about the Jews -- or anyone else.

Physical remains, wartime generated documents, and corroborated eyewitness
testimony would do the trick.

-- Bradley


Article 16275 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism and Hitler
Date: 17 Sep 1994 14:10:03 -0400
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Danny Keren is amazed that someone (me) should write so much about the
Holocaust controversy when I claim to know so little about Hitler.  And he
refers to Milton Kleim and Kleim's apparently self-avowed admiration for
Hitler, his antisemitism and violent racism.

I agree with the drift of everything Keren says in his two posts of today
(17 September) re these matters.

Hitler's craziness and brutal character were the primary factor that led
to the tragedy of the Jews during the nazi regime.  It can be argued that
he desired and "planned" the destruction of Jewish culture in eastern
Europe. That Hitler spoke of Jews and poisen gas before the war is
relevant. And it would indeed be relevant to study what the leader of Nazi
Germany "was up to" before and during WWII, if that were my subject. 

Nevertheless, I haven't pursued those studies. I haven't read Mien Kamph
(I read a few pages), and I haven't read a biography of the man. I did do
a little something on Hitler in an exceprt from Confessions a couple years
ago, but it held strictly to my reactions to his declaration of war on the
U.S., not his brightest move.

I'm not German, I'm not a Jew. I'm an American.  My interest does not lie
with what happened half a century ago in Europe, but in what goes on TODAY
in this country with the suppression of intellectual freedom around The
Controversy. I've never done any original research on the Holocaust story.
Everything I do has had as it's purpose the promotion of free public
discourse on the only historical event in the history of the West that is
closed to it.

Right here on alt.revisionism is the only place in America, that I know
of, where open debate on these matters exists. Discovering it, after ten
or fifteen years in the wilderness, threw me off balance a little. I may
not have much of a role to play in what is happening here.

While I'm dedicated to promoting open debate on the Holocaust, I have
never cared about it's history one way or the other.  I feel no inner need
to prove that the gas chamber stories are untrue. In a sense, it doesn't
matter to me one way or the other. Whatever happened happened. It can't be
fixed.

But the issue of intellectual freedom in America today is a "living" issue
for me and I can try to help fix it where it isn't working and that's what
does interest me. The way I work is very simple. I demonstrate where I can
that one Holocaust story or another, contrary to what the Deborah
Lipstadts argue, is not closed. That despite what they argue, there is
indeed an "other side" to those stories and that their argument that to
"deny" one Holocaust story is to deny all Holocaust stories -- that is,
the tragedy of the European Jews in its entirety -- is simply stupid or,
which is more likely, politically motivated.

So -- Hitler and his circle are very relevant to what happend to the Jews
of Europe, I remain largely ignorant of their careers, and feel no
inspiration for giving them my attention now.

RE WHAT KEREN WRITES ABOUT MILTON KLEIM:  I haven't paid much attention to
Kleim, for one reason or another, but if what Keren writes is true, and I
suppose it is, that Kleim would "admire Hitler even if he would have
killed 60 million Jews," it causes in me a disgust and horror so profound
I have no adequate way to express it.

So what do I do? Because Kleim doubts what I doubt about the gas chambers,
Keren suggests that I believe what Kleim believes about Hitler. It's not
true, Keren can not demonstrate it's true, but he can not, or doesn't want
to, resist his urge to suggest that it's true. 

The Kleim affair appears to be associated in Keren's view with all
expressions of doubt about the gas chambers--the heart of the Holocaust
story. He appears to believe that not to believe the gas chamber stories
is in itself "antisemitic." 

Keren, on this particular issue, needs to develope is sense of discretion
considerably. His clumsiness on this issue degrades much of what he has to
say, and he has a great deal to say that is worth while, to a blatant
exercise in McCarthyite guilt-by-association smear tactics.   

I condemn Kleim's views about admiring Hitler no matter how many Jews he
caused to be killed. I don't even know how to talk to a guy like that. But
the idea that this kind of bigotry has anything to do with revisionist
theory itself is wrong on the face of it.  The fact that Keren tries to
say it does suggests to me a political agenda that is informed by a
transparent Jewish chauvanism.

I would be happy to be convinced that I'm wrong about this.

-- Bradley



Article 16277 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Segev on the Bogus Soap Story (fwd)
Date: 17 Sep 1994 14:49:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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re what I know about the Stutthof soap story:  nothing really.  Other than
that the Museum there displayed a little "human soap" for its visitors. So
I don't really have much to react to.

-- Bradley


Article 16290 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Shrunken Heads
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 17 Sep 1994 04:47:02 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <35dbov$62i@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <35eae6$c0t@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 23:29:42 GMT
Lines: 35


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>re the origin of the shrunken heads:  the Soviets submitted the heads to
>the court at Nuremberg.  How do we know the heads originated with the
>Nazis, not the Soviets?

Actually, I believe you are the source of those shrunken heads. Prove
otherwise.

>This is a simple question on a simple matter. Only an obsessed twit would
>feel nervous about it.

No Smith, it's a stupid fucking question about a stupid fucking matter.

Nobody on god's green earth claims that the Nazis had a policy of
shrinking heads (tho I get the feeling they've shrunk yours, ya twit),
and that's your point, what were the Nazi's policies?

If you want the answer go look it up and stop this transparent goddamn
two-bit bush schoolboy innuendo crap.

WHO IN THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE KIDDING?

Not I.

You must be accustomed to speaking to stupid people. You must speak to
yourself a lot, you TWIT.

Put up or shut up you fraud.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16292 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Shrunken Heads
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 17 Sep 1994 04:53:02 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <35eape$c2j@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 23:37:11 GMT
Lines: 17


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>Those of you who are brilliant minds can deal with the great, important 
>questions about the Holocaust story.  We old working men will ask the
>little questions that don't amount to much.

OK, then let's ask a working man a little question: Who funds you and
your group?

Gauge your answer Mr Smith, we may know more about this than you
think.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

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Article 16295 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: "Revisionists" Quiet About Hitler?!
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 17 Sep 1994 05:17:01 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 23:53:54 GMT
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>The truth or falsity of the gas chamber stories however does not appear to
>rest on Hitler's brutal rhetoric about the Jews -- or anyone else.

	Motive, Method, Opportunity

The key questions in any investigation of murder, other than the
existence of a dead body (but this relates to whom, not what.)

Motive: Hitler was utterly obsessed with the idea that Jews had caused
every ill to his country and whatever of the world he cared about. He
made this clear in his writings, his speeches, laws he had passed,
etc.

Method: Guns, gas, starvation, gross criminal negligence whose results
could not possibly have been unanticipated (eg, sanitary conditions,
overwork beyond conception, bizarre medical experimentation, etc.)

Opportunity: Being Reichsfuhrer of Germany provided the opportunities.

So, in clear and concise terms, what exactly are you having a problem
with?

Let's put it this way: If OJ Simpson did not even know Nicole, did not
have a rocky separation from her punctuated by threats and even his
being dragged into court for previous physical violence against her,
if OJ had just been another random Hollywood person, do you think the
police would have shown up at his door an hour after finding her and
Ron Goldman murdered?

Motive, Method, Opportunity.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

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Article 16296 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: "Revisionists" Quiet About Hitler?!
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 17 Sep 1994 05:17:01 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>The truth or falsity of the gas chamber stories however does not appear to
>rest on Hitler's brutal rhetoric about the Jews -- or anyone else.
>
>Physical remains, wartime generated documents, and corroborated eyewitness
>testimony would do the trick.

I want to ask you a different question.

Has ANYONE asked you to "defend" the Nazis?

Hitler, Goering, Himmler, et al BRAGGED about their killing of the
Jews and others. They were PROUD of what they were doing.

As near as I can tell the only reason they weren't completely open
about all their activities during the war was for the sake of their
own soldiers and what the Allies might do in retaliation if they found
out what was really going on. Finding out that POWs are being shot on
sight can be quite demoralizing to an army.

So who asked you to defend them?

Hitler bragged in his Last Will & Testament that the world will
remember him fondly for having exterminated the Jews of Eastern and
Central Europe.

Now you come along and decide to "defend" them.

Why do you think they want defending against this charge?

With his last goddamned (and I mean that as literally as one can be)
breath Hitler brags about how, if he's accomplished ONE THING in his
disasterous career for which he will be remembered it's having killed
millions of Jews.

Doesn't that bother you in the still of the night?

Why don't you try something easy, like OJ Simpson? At least he denies
his guilt and doesn't defuse your efforts by bragging about having
committed the murder you've chosen to deny.

Don't you get it? They were PROUD of what they did!

-- 
        -Barry Shein

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Article 16297 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Response to Smith (was Re: Revisionism and Hitler)
Date: 17 Sep 1994 20:03:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article <35fp4u$oi4@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
writes:

Re all the main issues of the mass gassings being solved: Kenen thinks
they have, I think they haven't.

Re Raven's admiration for Hitler: I've never talked to Raven about Hitler.
 Since Raven doesn't buy the gassing chambers he would look at Hitler from
a very different perspective than the average exterminationist. 

Re why antisemites and racists employ revisionist theory to beat up on
Jews with:  Revisionist research demonstrates, to those who buy it, that
the traditional Holocaust story is flooded with fraud and falsehood.  The
Holocaust story is a bonanza for antisemites and racists--in its present
form. Once the story gets cleaned up, which is the purpose of revisionist
research, and which is going to take a long time, a shedding process will
take place during which the bigots will be sluffed off naturally by their
failing interest in a story that will no longer provide them with anything
with which to use against Jews. That's the rosy projection.

re Faurissons writing on the "anal complex of Jews": I'd like to see it.

re the correlation between antisemtisim and revisionism: this appears much
exaggerated for various reasons, a couple of which I mention above, but
also includes the fact that the story is forwarded primarily by Jews, that
those who do forward it routinely slander and suppress those of us who
want to talk about it publicly, and in other countries even censor and
cause to be jailed those who want to debate it.

re my "evidence" against Keren: I have no evidence against Keren, but
against some of the positions he takes. My experience, from the very
beginning, is that the exterminationist view of the gassing chambers and
related matters is forwarded largely by transparent Jewish chauvinists.  

Is Keren such a one? Maybe not. But if I can live with his
characterization of me as an antisemite, a nazi, and a racist and so on,
Keren should take a run at living with the awareness that many of us who
have been reading his posts take him to be a transparent Jewish
chauvinist--because of the nature, the language, of his posts. 

Maybe it would be a good idea if all of us were to stop labeling one
another and just deal with the materials. I swear to God, I believe it
would be good.      

There is nothing that says being a Jewish chauvinist, or an antisemite
either, means that you are wrong about any particular matter of fact. Why
not just stay with weighing the evidence?

--  Bradley Smith


Article 16298 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Revisionism and Hitler
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 17 Sep 1994 14:10:03 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
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Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 00:13:50 GMT
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>I'm not German, I'm not a Jew. I'm an American.  My interest does not lie
>with what happened half a century ago in Europe, but in what goes on TODAY
>in this country with the suppression of intellectual freedom around The
>Controversy.

There is no suppression as your voluminous posts here amply
demonstrate.

Once again we've got someone here who posts note after note about how
someone is suppressing his speech. It's not the first time. The
paradox is in the pudding.

That math professors won't spend a lot of time debating with you about
whether or not 2+2=5, or History profs refusing to spend their time
debating with you whether or not the Holocaust occurred, or Astronomy
profs debating UFO abductees, is not suppression of intellectual
freedom. They have their freedoms also, including the freedom to
ignore that which they each believe has no merit.

If you can show that which you have experienced is something more than
merely dozens upon dozens of History and related professors all
individually concluding ``gack, whotta jerk!'' please present your
evidence. If not, then you have gotten your day in the sun, and you
have received your answer.

If your ideas had merit they would find their audience.

They don't have merit.

That you continue to be pig-headed about that obvious conclusion
notwithstanding.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

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Article 16304 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Response to Smith (was Re: Revisionism and Hitler)
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 17 Sep 1994 20:03:03 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <35fp4u$oi4@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <35g03n$n9r@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 03:11:26 GMT
Lines: 166


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>Re all the main issues of the mass gassings being solved: Kenen thinks
>they have, I think they haven't.

Fine. Then let's do discuss this rather central issue rather than the
Whiteway and shrunken heads side-show you seem to like to harp upon.

>Re Raven's admiration for Hitler: I've never talked to Raven about Hitler.
> Since Raven doesn't buy the gassing chambers he would look at Hitler from
>a very different perspective than the average exterminationist. 

Or vice-versa.

There are quite a few people on this earth who weren't necessarily
subject to the gas chambers, eg German citizens, who still would think
about the same of Hitler had that never happened. Some little thing
about dragging your nation into a vicious war and managing to get it
levelled, being a rank fascist, that sort of thing. Bugs people. I
suppose Raven knows better than all those people who actually
experienced all this.

Well, hey, Raven has a right to his opinion. And I too have a right to
point out that he's a hateful lunatic moron, in kind. The mere right
to hold an opinion hardly provides one with maintaining any respect
from others for holding that opinion.

That point seems to escape most revisionists, they think (or feign)
that because they merely have the right to hold some idiotic and
unsupportable opinion that they should therefore not be treated like
laughingstock village idiots. BZZZT, wrong!

>Re why antisemites and racists employ revisionist theory to beat up on
>Jews with:  Revisionist research demonstrates, to those who buy it, that
>the traditional Holocaust story is flooded with fraud and falsehood.

And "those who buy it" just happen to be nearly tautologically the
same exact people who want more ammunition for their anti-semitism and
racism. Funny about that.

>The
>Holocaust story is a bonanza for antisemites and racists

And anyone else without the slightest regard for the truth and who
allows their personal political agendas to supercede annoying little
obstacles like The Truth.

>Once the story gets cleaned up, which is the purpose of revisionist
>research, and which is going to take a long time, a shedding process will
>take place during which the bigots will be sluffed off naturally by their
>failing interest in a story that will no longer provide them with anything
>with which to use against Jews. That's the rosy projection.

Well, hey, why not start closer to the end? Because right now I'm here
to tell ya you're so thickly covered with this kind of excrement no
one can hear your muffled protests.

>re the correlation between antisemtisim and revisionism: this appears much
>exaggerated for various reasons, a couple of which I mention above, but
>also includes the fact that the story is forwarded primarily by Jews

Oh bullshit.

Show me one measure for this claim and how this statement is
supported.

The Jews are around 10% or less of the US population, and even that is
very unevenly distributed in the US (I assume there are still more
Jewish people in Brooklyn, NYC than Israel?)

A typical revisionist complaint is how the "standard" (ie, true)
Holocaust story is taught in public schools, universities, etc. all
over the US.

Now, without engaging in voodoo mind-control theories or sinister
accusations of a secret Jewish dictatorship of the US, tell us how
this occurs if only primarily Jews, as you claim, forward this
Holocaust story?

Put simpler: You wish!

>that
>those who do forward it routinely slander and suppress those of us who
>want to talk about it publicly,

Slander is in the eyes of the beholder, calling a deluded moron a
deluded moron can also be a mere statement of fact even if the deluded
moron is uncomfortable with the label.

As to suppress: Be specific.

Because I've seen your bellyaching about "suppress" and what you mean
by it is that you can't get an hour of prime-time TV to boast your
absurd claims without challenge, or the front page of the NY Times for
editorial space or thereabouts.

You folks are like every UFO abductee, crystal-healer, newage (rhymes
with sewage) nut; if they're laughing in the wrong places then you
scream about being suppressed. Maybe everyone has heard all they need
to hear and simply thinks yer all crackpots? It's worth a thought!

>and in other countries even censor and
>cause to be jailed those who want to debate it.

Yeah, in Germany.

So let's hear how the Jews are in control of Germany as you earlier
stated is the vast force behind this sort of thing.

Gack. Have you ever heard the expression "the nose on your face"?

>re my "evidence" against Keren: I have no evidence against Keren, but
>against some of the positions he takes.

What? Have we all missed it? You go right from the contentless
assertion to the annoyed denial. Where is this evidence? Asking where
the shrunken heads are is not my idea of "evidence". Asking where
Whiteway was when he saw gas chambers is not "evidence". What? Are you
so deluded that things go thru your head that you just don't express
and you imagine you've presented some sort of argument?

>My experience, from the very
>beginning, is that the exterminationist view of the gassing chambers and
>related matters is forwarded largely by transparent Jewish chauvinists.  

Yeah yeah yeah. In your mind; by definition.

Ya mean folks like Dwight Eisenhower and other witnesses from the US
and Allied armies? Who? The Soviets? Who?

My experience is that those few dozen people in this world who seem to
take this holocaust denial thing at all seriously concur about 90%
with hateful, lunatic bigots, many of them self-proclaimed Nazis and
Hitler admirers.

I didn't exactly see mass protests in the streets over events like
Schindler's List or the Holocaust Museum (other than the few nuts, I
think the last protest we were reported to on, in front of the
holocaust museum, managed to get less than ten people to participate.)

You paint with a ridiculously broad brush, Mr Smith.

>Is Keren such a one? Maybe not. But if I can live with his
>characterization of me as an antisemite, a nazi, and a racist and so on,

I don't think he went quite that far.

I think he said what I've said: You're a crackpot.

>Why
>not just stay with weighing the evidence?

Since you've expended your entire time here completely evading the
evidence what's the point?

Tons of incredibly good evidence refuting your entire belief system
has been presented here. You've ignored every last bit of it.

I repeat: WHO IN THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU'RE KIDDING?


-- 
        -Barry Shein

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Article 16308 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Segev on the Bogus Soap Story
Date: 18 Sep 1994 01:45:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article <1994Sep17.230857.6209@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>,
kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

re the refutation of Mazur's human soap testimony:  McVay writes that
until it is formally refuted he will continue to believe it, a perfectly
reasonable position.

The problem comes when one begins to observe that many Holocaust stories
that were forwarded for thirty, forty years and more are suddenly declared
wrong, oftentimes without the the publication of any research whatever to
support the reversal of opinion.

McVay is right to point out that while both Lipstadt and Bauer have
publicly stated that the human soap story is only a rumor, neither has
pubished a paper, nor pointed to documents, that disprove -- Musur et.al. 

But we have the same situation with many other primary Holocaust stories. 
The Auschwitz numbers scam is only the most notorious.  While I believe
most readers will agree that the Soviets published no proof that 4
millions were murdered at Auschwitz, I have not seen the research that
proves the 4 million figure wrong. Where is it?

What we have with the Holocaust story, much too often, is history-by-fiat.
 

But what must be clear is that the human soap story is not closed. There
is an "other side" to the story, dispite what Lipstadt writes.


Article 16311 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Response to Smith (was Re: Revisionism and Hitler)
Date: 18 Sep 1994 01:58:00 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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References: 

In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) writes:

re Shrunken heads and the Whiteway gas chamber:  the shrunken heads are
not particularly important. The Whiteway gas chamber scam is and I'm going
to pursue it.

re Dwight Eisenhower: I suppose it's already been posted here a number of
times but here goes again. When Dwight wrote his Crusade In Europe, his
memoir of his participation in World War II, he failed to mention the
fabled homicidal gassing chambers.  But then, maybe it slipped his mind. 
What's millions of gassed Jews to a man like Dwight? His mind certainly
would have been on more serious matters.  

-- Bradley Smith


Article 16312 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Response to Smith
Date: 18 Sep 1994 02:04:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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References: 

In article , golux@mcs.com (The
only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) writes:

Re: There is no revisionist research:  The Journal of Historical Review
began publishing in 1978.  

I urge those monitoring this newsgroup to take a look at a few issues and
decided for themselves.

-- Bradley Smith


Article 16353 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Response to Smith (was Re: Revisionism and Hitler)
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 18 Sep 1994 01:58:00 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 21:30:04 GMT
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>re Dwight Eisenhower: I suppose it's already been posted here a number of
>times but here goes again. When Dwight wrote his Crusade In Europe, his
>memoir of his participation in World War II, he failed to mention the
>fabled homicidal gassing chambers.  But then, maybe it slipped his mind. 

This is quite simply a lie.

The relevant quotes have been posted here over and over and Mr Smith
is free to look them up for himself.

Even if it were true it would still be only a half-truth at best.

Does Mr Smith mean that there exists no record of Dwight Eisenhower
acknowledging the death camps?

Or is Mr Smith making a much more weasly point: That there MAY exist
ONE DOCUMENT which Eisenhower wrote which does not (actually it does)
acknowledge the death camps?

It is the latter: Eisenhower made it a top priority to PERSONALLY
visit the death camps as they were liberated and inspect them himself
so there was no doubt in his mind and he could not be accused of
making decisions from possibly flawed second-hand reports.

Eisenhower, during the early occupation of Germany, had films made of
these death camps in all their grisly glory and showed them in movie
theaters in occupied Germany.

He was criticised for ordering US military police to grab random
groups of Germans off the street and force them to sit through the
movies. He stopped that after some criticism.

Mr Smith:

	YOU ARE A FRAUD.

	YOUR ONLY PURPOSE HERE IS EVIL DECEPTION.

	YOU HAVE BEEN EXPOSED FOR WHAT YOU ARE.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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Article 16367 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Eisenhower on Gas Chambers
Date: 19 Sep 1994 02:25:02 -0400
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Dwight Eisenhower, in his Memoirs of World War II Crusade In Europe,
didn't mention the fabled gas chambers. I don't know why. Maybe he forgot.
Maybe he hadn't heard about them yet. Maybe he was thinking of how he
would be judged by historians in the 21st century. Maybe there was some
other reason. Maybe he didn't mention gas chambers because secretly he
wanted to annoy our Jewish friends. We are all aware here about how
pervasive antisemtisim is, Eisenhower was from German stock after all, so
who knows .... ? 

Jamie McCarthy is outraged (Sept.18) that I mentioned the fact that Dwight
didn't mention the gas chambers in his magnum opus, which he ends by
saying:  "And while it is true that Eisenhower does not explicitly write
the words `gas chamber,' he was horrified .... "

Of course, that's what I said.  Eisenhower didn't mention gassing
chambers. McCarthy says he didn't mention gas chambers. I agree with
McCarthy. McCarthy agrees with me. Eisenhower didn't mention gas chambers.
He says he didn't. I say he didn't. MCCARTHY AND I AGREE ON THIS ONE. 
Nevertheless, McCarthy's "pissed" anyhow. There's just no pleasing some
exterminationists.

Danny Keren appears to agree that Eisenhower didn't mention gassing
chambers. Eisenhower was "shocked" by what he saw at a camp "near Gotha,"
the sticky thing being that he didn't say there were gas chambers there.
He didn't say there were gas chambers anywhere. Keren appears to believe
that Eisenhower knew about the gas chambers but for one reason or another
decided not to "go into details" about them. Well, maybe Eisenhower knew
all about the gas chambers but then again maybe he didn't because in his
memoir of the greatest war of all time against the greatest evil of all
time using the greatest weapon of all time--he not only didn't go into
detail about the gas chambers, in his book he didn't even mention them. Go
figure, eh?  Keren appears to agree with me that Eisenhower didn't mention
gas chambers in his book but Keren is considerably annoyed that I would
point that out to the maybe 16,000 people who might log into
alt.revisionism over the next thirty days. 

Barry Shein says my statement that Eisenhower didn't mention the gassing
chambers in his Crusade in Europe is a "lie." I think Barry's being a
little hard on me because the truth is I just can't find the place in the
book where Eisenhower talks about the gas chambers. But then, I'm not a
scholar, it might actually be in there someplace. Maybe I should go
through the book four or five more times. 

Barry seems to have come to the opinion that I wrote that Eisenhower did
not acknowedge the "death" camps but I didn't really write that. What I
wrote is that Eisenhower did not mention the gas chambers in his book
Crusade in Europe. Barry's imagination must be in overdrive. I hope I'm
not being too harsh.

Barry says I'm a FRAUD. Why? Because I wrote that Eisenhower didn't
mention the gas chambers in Crusade, but he didn't. If he had of, I'd bet
Barry would be the first one to point out to me exactly where he wrote it,
nosing out the speedy Keren and the pissed McCarthy. But Barry hasn't
pointed out to me where Eisenhower chatted up his people about the gas
chambers. Slipped his mind, eh, Barry?  Of course, he was an old guy by
then. What can you expect? I mean, when the gas chambers are so important
to you, Barry, it looks as if the commanding General of the Western Allied
Armies could at least have mentioned them. But no. It slipped the old
fart's mind. 

Barry also writes that I am creating an EVIL DECEPTION by writing that
Eisenhower did not mention the gas chambers in his Crusade In Europe. I
can see why Barry would think it evil that I would point out that Dwight
did not write what Dwight did not write--that's evil on the face of it and
I have to accept it. But I don't understand the deception part .... Maybe
if I had written that Dwight HAD written about the gas chambers in his
Crusade In Europe, maybe that would have been the forthright way to go.

I'll think about it.

-- Bradley 


Article 16371 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Segev on the Bogus Soap Story
Date: 19 Sep 1994 04:27:07 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article <17SEP199408103719@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) writes:

re soap and "no other side" to Holocaust story:

What was the Holocaust? Does it include the stories of "survivors" who saw
human soap, washed in human soap, made human soap?

If maybe there was no human soap does that suggest that the testimonry of
those survivors who saw what wasn't there might be false witnesses?  If
they invent or repeat falsehoods about human soap, is it possible that
other "survivors" repeat falsehoods about other "Holocaust" stories?

I would suppose it is.

The "Holocaust" is a collection of an immense number of stories.  Some of
them are false. Which ones? I think there is a growing awareness that the
human soap story is one among many.  Each false story that is removed from
the "canon" makes the real story more true and more real. Getting rid of
the fraud and the trash in the story should be seen as a good.

Why wouldn't it?

So -- what was the "Holocaust?"  Among the many stories that it used to
include, it looks more and more that it will have to do without the human
soap story. I think it's going to have to do without a number of others.

When Lipstadt says there's no "other side" to the Holocaust and implies
that anyone is saying that all the Holocaust stories are false, she is
being ingenuous. That's not what anyone says.

-- Bradley


Article 16372 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Segev on the Bogus Soap Story
Date: 19 Sep 1994 04:32:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

Re Lipstadt's view that it is okay to debate those Holocaust stories that
she and her fascist circle have given the okay to:  My view is that all
Holocaust stories should be open to debate.

-- Bradley


Article 16373 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Auschwitz Numbers Scam
Date: 19 Sep 1994 04:46:02 -0400
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I used the above expression in the Tom Segev thread:

C.J. Hoover wants to know what the scam was if 33 years ago Hilberg
suggested a number of 1 million plus for Auschwitz:

This is the scam:  the 4 million figure was repeated in the persteige
media and the student press for close to 30 years following the
publication of Hilberg's book.  The figure was chisled into stone at
Auschwitz. The Pope prayed over it. Why?

I agree that historians knew the 4 million figure was wrong, that it was a
deliverate lie. None of them bothered for close to 30 years to clean up
the story for the public. Why? 

Because, as Yehuda Bauer said:  "The revisionists can count."

There are those who believe that so long as the intellectual classes know
what's what that the people can be told anything, no matter how corrupt,
no matter for how long. I don't like that.

-- Bradley Smith


Article 16375 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Revisionists" Quiet About Hitler?!
Date: 19 Sep 1994 04:50:08 -0400
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

Re Auschwitz:  when we finish with Whiteway we'll go on to F. Mueller of
Auschwitz.

-- B.


Article 16376 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Response to Smith
Date: 19 Sep 1994 04:56:05 -0400
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In article , golux@mcs.com (The
only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) writes:

Re the Journal of Historical Review:  The proof is in the pudding, to coin
a phrase.  I repeat my suggestion that those who are reading
alt.revisionism. Have a look at the Journal.  Particularly those issues
before and through 1992.

-- Bradley


Article 16377 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Smith, would you like evidence or not?
Date: 19 Sep 1994 05:12:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

re Let's start with Auschwitz:  Let's not. We've already started with the
Whiteway / Berenbaum gas chamber that may have been at Hadamar near
Giessen -- or may not have been. 

Why jump around?

-- Bradley


Article 16378 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist theory
Date: 19 Sep 1994 05:18:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article <35ihs4$nb0@access3.digex.net>, mstein@access3.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

Re Revisioist Theory:  I suppose revisionists would describe the orthodox
theory in the way that you describe revisionist theory.  But since you've
brought the issue to my attention, I think I would feel more comfortable
talking about revisionist "research" rather than theory.

--  Bradley 


Article 16379 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Will the real soap story please stand up?
Date: 19 Sep 1994 05:29:06 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article <35ivl7$bgf@access1.digex.net>, mstein@access1.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

re documents "proving" the human soap story:  Yes, all that stuffs is
there.  One questions then is why have both Deborah Lipstadt and Yehuda
Bauer said publicly that the story is false? 

If Lipstadt and Bauer are right, it suggests the documents you have
mentioned were false or falsified. The documents were put together by the
Soviets and submitted to the court at Nuremberg. If the human soap
documents are do not contain the truth, that in turn suggests that maybe
other documents submitted to Nuremberg were cooked by the Soviets.

It's this very sort of mixup that makes revisionists wary of Soviet
documents that supposedly support the unique (unique!) brutality of the
Germans.

-- Bradley


Article 16380 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Mr. Smith, would you like evidence or not?
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 19 Sep 1994 05:12:02 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
	<35jkl2$l19@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 10:58:26 GMT
Lines: 34


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>re Let's start with Auschwitz:  Let's not. We've already started with the
>Whiteway / Berenbaum gas chamber that may have been at Hadamar near
>Giessen -- or may not have been. 
>
>Why jump around?

There's no jumping around.

You were given your answer.

No one here know much about that specific quote in that coffee table
book and has suggested, if you are interested, that you go ask
Berenbaum as they are his words.

But obviously that's not what you're interested in, you harp for the
rhetorical value.

The truth of the matter is, Mr Smith, that several million people were
killed in a planned program of murder which included gassings,
shootings, starvation and other methods. About half were Jews.

Everything else you have to say is beside the point. You are just a
crackpot who thinks his deceptive rhetoric will somehow be mistaken
for the truth. It is you who are mistaken.

Deal with the memos. Cut the bullshit.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16381 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Revisionist theory
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 19 Sep 1994 05:18:02 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <35ihs4$nb0@access3.digex.net> <35jl0a$l30@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 10:59:39 GMT
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>Re Revisioist Theory:  I suppose revisionists would describe the orthodox
>theory in the way that you describe revisionist theory.  But since you've
>brought the issue to my attention, I think I would feel more comfortable
>talking about revisionist "research" rather than theory.

How about revisionist babbling?

So how many respectable people have to laugh in your face before it
occurs to you that they're not all crazy?


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16382 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Will the real soap story please stand up?
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 19 Sep 1994 05:29:06 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
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Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 11:05:32 GMT
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>It's this very sort of mixup that makes revisionists wary of Soviet
>documents that supposedly support the unique (unique!) brutality of the
>Germans.

But when Soviet documents even hint at something you wish to believe
in they are paraded by you folks like flags at Liberation.

You can't have it both ways.

Revisionists can't harp on the nearly completely undocumented murders
of Stalin (as if that proves that millions of people are never killed
or some such nonsense) and then demand ridiculous standards of proof
for things they simply do not wish to believe. Particularly when
they've been handed more proof than anyone could possibly need on a
silver platter.

But you choose to ignore it.

You ignore, for example, the memos written between Nazi officers in
the ordinary course of their duties which detail precisely what you
deny.

Why?

Because you are a charlatan, that's why. Any fool can see that, and
many fools, and others, have.



-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16415 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson on A. Frank
Date: 19 Sep 1994 17:22:03 -0400
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Danney Keren:

Please post page numbers for Faurisson "quote."

--  Bradley


Article 16425 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Revisionist Theory
Date: 19 Sep 1994 22:31:06 -0400
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After reading Barry' Shein's short and gratutitous message (19 September)
I've decided to post a generally agreed-upon (by revisionists) definition
of revisionist theory. It's probably been posted before.

To wit:  No plan,  no order,  no budget,  no weapon (that is, no homicidal
gassing chambers),  and no victim (that is, not one victim identified as
having been gassed in a gassing chamber in any of the half dozen so-called
"death" camps).

As Hilberg and other respectable folk have come around to numbers one, two
and three, and the fifth appearing to be self-evident, we have only the
fourth item to get cleared up--the gas chambers. 

The exterminationists would have better luck in defending exterminationist
theory if they concentrated on the substantial killings of non-combatants
that Germans carried out on the eastern front.  But that wouldn't forward
the concept of UNIQUE German brutality, which is so valuable to so many of
them, so they concentrate on the sado-masochistic fantasies of a couple
handfuls of "eyewitness" testimony that in addtion to being s/m is
oftentimes brutally comic (see the testimonies of Mueller, Wiernik,
Wiesel, Mermelstein, Wiesenthal, Vrba, etc., etc.

Talk about laughing .... Anyone of them could do a stand-up routine that
would bring the house down.

 
-- Bradley Smith


Article 16491 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson on A. Frank
Date: 21 Sep 1994 00:18:12 -0400
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

My fax:  209 733 2653

-- Bradley


Article 16541 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McCarthy's Mistake (was: Faurisson on A. Frank)
Date: 23 Sep 1994 01:11:01 -0400
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

I'm humbled by your public apology to Robert Faurisson, tho the damge is
done, of course.

I will respond to the three questions at the end of your apology.

-- Bradley Smith


Article 16567 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: General L.B. Clay on human skin lamp shades
Date: 24 Sep 1994 01:37:04 -0400
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Jamie McCarthy asks that I explain why I wrote in an article, published as
an advertisement in The Daily Collegian at Northwestern University four
years ago, that General Lucius D. Clay said that the notorious human skin
lamp shades from Buchenwald were-- surprise!-- made from "goat" skin.

McCarthy writes that I am lying about this. I don't understand why he
should say that.

My source is an interview with General Clay in the "Official Proceedings
of the George C. Marashall Research Foundation."  The statement in
question is in the transcript of a videotape interview shown at the
conference "U.S. Occupation in Europe After World War II,"  23-24 April
1976 at Lexington, VA, sponsored by the George C. Marshall Research
Foundation, pp. 37-38.

Perhaps McCarthy will explain why he charges I'm lying about this.

Meanwhile, I am left wondering what to do about Mr. McCarthy. He behaves
here as if he didn't have a mommy and daddy to teach him how to carry on a
civilized exchange of ideas.  It occurs to me that I should try a little
discipline with him, the way adults routinely respond to unruly children.

To that end, when McCarthy addresses a question to me in a reasonably
adult way, and I have the time, I'll answer it. When he addresses his
question to me in the churlish manner in which he put his General Clay
question, I'll let it slide.

-- Bradley Smith



Article 16629 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FILIP MUELLER "TESTIFIES" ON AUSCHWITZ  [2/2]
Date: 25 Sep 1994 16:52:04 -0400
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In article <9409250610.08OBZ00@banished.com>, dgannon@banished.com writes:

Re Danny Keren posting that he never quoted Mueller:  He did reference
him, however, in a context that would have the reader believe Mueller is a
man of sound mind and character when we see from his testimony that he is
not. 

Keren now references (doesn't quote from) the movie Shoah. Shoah is a
travesty of reason and no one who is not a "true believer" could possibly
take it seriously as an historical "documentary." 


-- Bradley Smith


Article 16649 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FILIP MUELLER "TESTIFIES" ON AUSCHWITZ  [2/2]
Date: 26 Sep 1994 00:38:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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References: <364rcu$mg4@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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In article <364rcu$mg4@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
writes:

Keren believes Muller's testimony in Shoah is "rather accurate:"  Maybe it
is. On the other hand, who's going to trust a man who "testifies" that he
watched a bucket of human flesh "jump about" on a crematory floor?

Longshoreman and other workers laugh at that kind of stuff and are
contemputous of the professors who would have them believe it.  

I'd love to watch Danny Keren down on the waterfront trying to convince
the workers there that he can make a bucket of flesh dance the samba for
them. 

On the other hand, the Filip Muellers and Danny Kerens appear to be meant
for each other. They represent two generations of a sado-masochistic cult
that is growing ever more ludicrous in the eyes of the people,
particularly among working men and women.

The Danny Kerens are True Believers.  They think jumping buckets of flesh
are everyday happenings. If they'd been raised in Haiti they'd believe
that rocks talk and trees have children. It's simply their personality
type being in the wrong place at the wrong time. There's nothing they can
do about it. 

Be gentle with them.

-- Bradley Smith


Article 16650 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shumel Krakowski (Was Smith's "Mistake / McCarth
Date: 26 Sep 1994 00:50:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com
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In article <364sjt$n8e@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
writes:

McCarthy asked me to defend four statements: one each on Eisenhower,
General L.B. Clay, Krakowski and Churchill.  I've responded to the first
two. 

I'm waiting for McCarthy to respond to my post on General Clay.  Then I'll
go to the other two, one by one. 

Let's have a little closure here.

-- Bradley SMith


Article 16657 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: FILIP MUELLER "TESTIFIES" ON AUSCHWITZ  [2/2]
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 26 Sep 1994 00:38:01 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Zorya)
Organization: The World
References: <364rcu$mg4@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <365j79$m1e@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 08:28:02 GMT
Lines: 25


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>Keren believes Muller's testimony in Shoah is "rather accurate:"  Maybe it
>is. On the other hand, who's going to trust a man who "testifies" that he
>watched a bucket of human flesh "jump about" on a crematory floor?

Ya know, you can pick the silliest and most inconsequential items to
focus upon. All of a sudden when Muller says jump about it's to be
taken literally, this is suddenly the critical point as to whether the
holocaust occurred or not. Muller couldn't have possibly been speaking
colorfully, the buckets must "dance a samba" in your view.

There has to be a good reason you spend so much time on this sort of
nonsense when you've been presented with such good and solid evidence
refuting your views.

I can't imagine what that reason is, however. I'm sure no one can, but
it's probably aptly termed a medical condition.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16672 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FILIP MUELLER "TESTIFIES" ON AUSCHWITZ  [2/2]
Date: 26 Sep 1994 10:10:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 9
Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <366knr$sl1@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
References: <3663bl$hpt@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com

In article <3663bl$hpt@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
writes:

re Jeffrey Dahmer cutting up folks and keeping pieces of them in his
refridgerater:  I'm not aware that Dahmer, unlike Auschwitz survivor Filip
Mueller, has tried to sell us the story that his fridge could do the
lambada.

-- Bradley  Smith 



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