Archive/File: holocaust/usa/codoh vicksell.06942 (Part 2 of 2)
Last-Modified: 1994/07/08

Article 12786 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Consequences of the Big Lie
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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 02:56:21 GMT
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misrael@kaml2.csi.uottawa.ca (Mark Israel) writes:

>In article , Ross Vicksell  writes:

>>> Germany has been generous, yes. 
>>
>> Germany was FORCED, in 1953, to start paying "reparations" to Israel, as 
>> a precondition for permission to form the Bonn government.

>   O.K., have it your way -- Germany has been stingy.

100 billion Deutschmarks - that's stingy?

             Ross Vicksell


Article 12787 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: LEUCHTER: Use your modem to reach him!
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wmmichael@aol.com (Wm Michael) writes:

>With regard to the title:  What was Fred Leuchter's modem number?

>WmMichael@aol.com

I think you got in too late.  I don't think Ken McVay is going to divulge it.

           Ross Vicksell


Article 12788 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The Nazi Genocide of the Soviet POWs
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dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>The question is, of course, why does Vicksell (like other Holocaust
>deniers) choose to believe that every atrocity committed against
>Germans in WW2 is true, but he refuses to believe the very well
>documented atrocities committed by Nazi Germany in the war?

>There is certainly no more evidence to the fact that many Germans
>died in Soviet captivity than to the fact that the Nazis inflicted
>genocide against Jews, Gypsies and others. On the contrary, the
>Nazi genocide is much better documented. Why does Vicksell believe
>the first, and reject the second?

The Germans know how many soldiers surrendered to the Soviets.  They know 
how many soldiers made it back after the war.  They also know how to 
subtract.

            Ross Vicksell


Article 12791 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Jewish "invention" of "Holocaust" after WWII
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References:      <1994Jun16.045056.17537@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 05:28:54 GMT
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kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

>In article  codfish@netcom.com 
>(Ross Vicksell) writes:
>>"genocide" like (capital H) "Holocaust" is a postwar neologism invented 
>>by the exterminationists.  See James Martin's "The Man Who Invented 
>>Genocide", available from the IHR.

>Really, Ross, you ought to compare notes with Dan Gannon. According
>to him, the Jews invented the term back after WWII... neither of
>you, it is plain, are correct. As the following demonstrates, the
>term dates from at least the twelth century... amazing how it
>could have "invented" it after WWII!
> ...

The relevant part of the OED entry you posted is the following:

>    d . the Holocaust : the mass murder of the Jews by the Nazis in the
>war of 1939-1945. Also used transf. , of the similar fate of other groups;
>and attrib. 
>    The specific application was introduced by historians during the
>1950s, probably as an equivalent to Heb. h&dotbl.urban and shoah
>`catastrophe' (used in the same sense); but it had been foreshadowed by
>contemporary references to the Nazi atrocities as a `holocaust' (sense 2 c
>): see quots. 1942-49 .
> ...

Yes, H(h)olocausts go way back, but they're always "a (an) H(h)olocaust",
not THE Holocaust. 

Remember how the D.A. in the movie "Miracle on Thirty Fourth Street" was
willing to concede that Kris Kringle (Edmund Gwenn) was "a Santa Claus",
but demanded that John Payne, Kris's attorney, produce proof that Kris
was the "one and only"  Santa Claus? 

Payne did it!  He got the U.S. Post Office to deliver thousands of
letters, written by kids to Santa Claus, to Kris at the court house. Payne
then argued that his client had been recognized as the "one and only"
Santa Claus by the U.S. Post Office Department, an official agency of the
U.S. government, since they had delivered this mail to HIS Santa Claus,
not any other. The judge (Gene Lockhart), sensing which way the political
wind was blowing, decided in Kris's favor. 

Similarly, the U.S. Holocaust Museum, an official agency of the U.S. 
Government, represents only one "Holocaust" , the presumed attempt by the
Germans to kill as many European Jews as possible in the time they had, in
its exhibits.  Thus a strong case can be made that this is the one and
only (capital H) Holocaust. 

A-type Santa Clauses are a dime-a-dozen; every big department store has a
Santa Claus at Xmas time, not to mention all the ones standing on street
corners ringing their bells.  Similarly, there have been many a-type
holocausts throughout history. 

However, just as there's only one genuine Santa Claus, the one who lives
at the North Pole, there is only one "the Holocaust." 

>(Perhaps after you finish explaining your failure to do some basic
>research relating to the movie Shindler's List, you can explain your
>general lack of English origins...)

I have posted  a "Shindler's" list apology of sorts, but now I'm sort of 
sorry I did it.

As for my "general lack of English origins", I must confess I'm Swedish 
on my father's side and Czech on my mother's.

                 Ross Vicksell



Article 12833 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Consequences of the Big Lie
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2u3nlq$sjp@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 1994 06:13:07 GMT
Lines: 53

dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

># Germany was FORCED, in 1953, to start paying "reparations" to
># Israel, as a precondition for permission to form the Bonn
># government.  

>Ok. Maybe Vicksell can tell us *exactly* who receives reparations,
>and for what purpose was the state of Israel given reparations. I
>seriously doubt it, though, because Vicksell has proven, again and
>again, that he has no idea what he's talking about.

Is this a quiz question or a request for information?  O.K., I'll play it
straight. Besides the State of Israel, individual survivors, Jews and
gentiles, have received payments from the German Government.  According to
the Canadian Jewish News; As of the end of 1980 "The number of successful
claimants is 4,344,378.  Payments have reached 50.18 billion German
marks."  Apparently about 80% of the claimants were Jews. 

As for WHY the German government has shelled out all that money over the
years, take a look at the post from Ken McVay for the "official" reasons.
The real reasons are indicated in what I have said above about the 
Germans being allowed to form a government, plus the following: 

"It was clear to me that, if the negotiations with the Jews failed, the
negotiations at the London Debt Conference [which were going on at the
same time] would also run aground, because Jewish banking circles would
exert an influence over the course of the London Debt Conference which
should not be underestimated. ... If the German economy was to achieve a
good credit rating and become strong again, the London Conference would
have to be ended successfully." 

                Conrad Adenhaur

       

># Hey, where have have I heard that one 
before? "Brave Little Israel, 
># the only democracy in the Middle East." Look at all those Arabs in 
># the Knesset. 

>I see. Is Vicksell claiming there are no Arabs in the Knesset?

Heck no - not by a long shot.  According to the 1993 Political Handbook of
the World, among the 120 members of the Knesset there are two members of
the Arab Democracy Party, who we may safely assume are Arabs.  There's
also a left wing party, the name of which escapes me, which has three
Knesset members, some of whom may be Arabs. 

               Ross Vicksell



Article 12839 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Consequences of the Big Lie
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Date: Thu, 23 Jun 1994 04:45:45 GMT
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bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:


>How many Jews were in Germany before 1933?

>How many after 1945?

>What happened to their property? Their homes, their businesses, etc?

>Do you believe it would have been reasonable for Germany to just keep
>that wealth?

>Right now West Germans are trying to sort out property that was lost
>to them when Germany was split, homes etc. Do you find it unreasonable
>that they would like their homesteads or their comparable worth back?

>There's a reason these things are called reparations, your own lying
>propaganda aside.

I wonder what kind of compensation the 20,000,000 Germans who got kicked 
out the Sudetenland, Pomerania, East Prussia, etc. got?  Looks like a 
double standard to me.

                         Ross Vicksell


Article 12840 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Bradley Smith and David Cole
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References: <2t2h6b$bm2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 1994 05:01:35 GMT
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Scott Harbaugh  writes:

>Ross Vicksell  writes:
> 
>>>was described as an "ex construction worker and longshoreman",
> 
>Smith claims to have written a play and have been arrested for selling
>the book Tropic of Cancer. He says these things in his autobiographical
>book Confessions of a Holocoust Revisionist.
>  So  gee I wonder why didn't 60 minutes call him a playright, author,
>and political activist?

Is this a rhetorical question?

            Ross Vicksell


Article 12841 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Jewish "invention" of "Holocaust" after WWII
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References:      <1994Jun16.045056.17537@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  <2u6upj$fum@bird.summit.novell.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 1994 05:17:36 GMT
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mattk@netnews.usl.com (Kaufman M.E.) writes:

>Err, Ross, umm, didn't Mel Mermelstein get the judge to set the IHR
>right on this account? Isn't the fact of the Holocaust a *legal truth* now,
>"thanks" to the tireless, clueless, hateful efforts of Lewis Brandon
>and the rest of the Institute for Hateful Rhetoric?

I think the arson burning of the IHR headquarters in 1984 (note the year) 
takes the cake for hatefulness.

Judicial notices are a dime-a-dozen, too. Not to mention laws banning 
Holocaust revisionism.
          
           Ross Vicksell


Article 12849 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Treblinka: Excerpts from Judgements
Message-ID: 
Keywords: Franz,Krausnick,Stangl,Stroop,Treblinka
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <1994Jun20.110003.10984@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 1994 18:22:36 GMT
Lines: 4

This seems to be Treblinka week.  Any idea of what happened to remains of 
the victims that didn't get moved to Israel?

           Ross Vicksell 

Article 12874 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: More Fred "Hannibal"
Message-ID: 
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Date: Fri, 24 Jun 1994 04:38:30 GMT
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CyberKnight (cyber@ace.com) wrote:

:       A government bill which would have criminalized Nazi apologists
: was rejected last week in Bonn's upper
: house of parliament because of opposition objections 
: to other aspects of the bill.

Maybe there's still a chance that Germany will come out of the Dark Ages, 
free-speech-wise.

              Ross Vicksell


Article 12907 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Consequences of the Big Lie
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <0006D562.fc@nile.com> <2u1v31$9jo@csi0.csi.UOttawa.CA> 	 <2u4vim$7jd@csi0.csi.UOttawa.CA> 	  	 

bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:


>>I wonder what kind of compensation the 20,000,000 Germans who got kicked 
>>out the Sudetenland, Pomerania, East Prussia, etc. got?  Looks like a 
>>double standard to me.
>>
>>                         Ross Vicksell

>A double-standard by who?

>They can get whatever it is they can negotiate with whomever took
 >this from them.

>Your reasoning process is so sloppy sometimes I wonder if your brain
>is mush, other times I wonder if you just do it on purpose hoping no
>one will notice.

>West Germans have been demanding back property lost in East Germany.

>I mean, who do you think does this stuff, god?

>Or do you think those W. Germans shouldn't get anything either until
>whatever complaints you're referring to in Sudetenland or Pomerania
>are settled because it would be a DOUBLE-STANDARD!

>I don't have any problem with them getting back what's rightfully
>theirs. Perhaps you do.

>-- 
>        -Barry Shein

>Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
>Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD

Let's get back to the real world.  After WWII the victors made the rules, 
just like after WWII.  As a result 20,000,000 Germans got ejected from 
lands they had been occupying for centuries.  This is worse than what 
happened to the Jews.

For a while there, while Germany was prosperous, there was talk about 
"buying back" this stolen territory.  Haven't heard anything about that 
lately, with Germany's hands full trying to absorb the former GDR.

                 Ross Vicksell



Article 12908 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org> 
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 1994 22:41:53 GMT
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bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

>Unlike the Jews the Nazis had every opportunity to broker peace.

>They weren't interested.

After the fall of France, Germany made several peace overtures to 
Britain.  It was the British who weren't interested.

>>The vast majority of America's atrocious bombing
>>occurred when there was absolutely no danger to the US at all.

>Oh yeah right, what bullshit.

>Then why were the Nazis running U-boats off the coast of NYC and into
>the harbor?

How many ships did they sink in the harbor?  Or was the real concern that
two pronged attack Germany and Japan had planned, the Germans landing on
the East coast and Japanese on the West coast? 

                 Ross Vicksell


Article 12915 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: More Fred "Hannibal"
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2udbgt$aq1@mary.iia.org> <4481.UUL1.3#25274@ace.com> 
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 04:05:07 GMT
Lines: 28

ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gordon McFee) writes:



>In a previous article, bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg) says:

>>Why do you find it necessary to change Fred Leuchter to Fred "Hannibal?"  
>>Does the real name frighten you somehow?  Is truth so painful?
>>
>>Modern Germany is dominated by Jews; that is what the current hate laws 
>>in Germany and elsewhere really show.  But, that is all ending and soon.
>>
>>FPBERG
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Well, it sure as hell isn't Fred Lichter, becuase his lights have been out
>for some time now.  As have yours, I might add.
>-- 
>Gordon McFee ai292

>I'll write no line before its time!

Interesting how many people have repeated Fred's pioneering sample taking 
experiment, including the Poles.

          Ross Vicksell


Article 12917 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org>   
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 05:16:19 GMT
Lines: 63

Gordon Mcfee writes:

> ...  First of all, the
>extermination of the Jews *was* attempted by the Nazis as their own
>documents and testimonies prove beyond a shadow of a doubt.  The evidence
>is so overwhelming that one would have to choose to disbelieve it, which
>appears to be precisely what you have done.  In fact, the estimates of
>murdered Jews arrived at after the war correspond almost exactly with the
>estimates of none other than Adolf Eichmann, who certainly was in a
>position to know.

The allies captures TONS of German documents, none of which said anything
about gassing Jews.  As for the "testimonies" of the "perpetrators", they
were all given after the war, with the interrogators wielding the carrot
and the stick alternately, with great effectiveness.  As for kidnappee
Adolf Eichmann, he was thoroughly brainwashed by the Israelis, in the best
Stalinist tradition, before his show trial. 

>Second, all this USA war crimes blathering is equally untrue. 

Oh sure, demolishing every large city in Germany was necessary to expedite
the German surrender and save millions of lives.  Actually, German war
production GREW during the war.  The Germans just moved key industries,
like the V2 production facility, underground.  The allied "strategic"
bombing, along with the magnanimous "unconditional surrender" offer, only
steeled Germany's resolve to fight to the bitter end, prolonging the war. 
As I've said before, it was the Red Army that beat the Wehrmacht, not the
American/British indiscrimate mass murder of German civilians and 
destruction of irreplacable cultural treasures.

> Had the
>Nazis surrendered in 1942 when unconditional surrender was first made the
>order of the day, 

The Germans didn't have a hell of a lot of incentive to surrender in 1942.
They and the Japanese were going great guns.  Stalingrad happened at the 
beginning of 1943.

> many millions of innocent Germans would have been spared
>the very atrocities that you bleat about--that were brought upon them by
>your beloved Fuehrer.  Let us not forget Hitler's scorched earth order of
>1945--he was going to exterminate his own people!  Nothing the Allies
>contemplated, or did, comes even close to this. 

I beg to differ.  The Russians did a lot better scorching job on Mother
Russia in the initial phase of the Russo-German War than the German's did
on Germany at the end of the war. 

> Let us not forget the bombings of London and Coventry either.  

It was only after repeated British bombings of Berlin that Hitler 
reluctantly gave the order to bomb London.  Churchill wanted to goad him 
into bombing London and he succeeded.  Chalk up another one for lovable 
Teddy bear Winnie.

>And finally, let us not forget
>who thirsted for, and started, this bloodiest of wars.

I'd say the British shared a large part of the responsibility; they 
influenced the Poles not to negotiate the Polish corridor problem with 
Germany.

           Ross Vicksell

Article 12923 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: An "open letter" to Ken Mcvay
Message-ID: 
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References: <00072E85.fc@nile.com> <2ucl89$gos@bird.summit.novell.com> <2ud21o$qfn@mary.iia.org> <2ufa7b$t8c@bird.summit.novell.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 05:48:26 GMT
Lines: 49

mattk@netnews.usl.com (Kaufman M.E.) writes:

>Friedrich Berg (bergf@mary.iia.org) wrote:
>: Dear Mr. Kaufmann,


>Err, that's one 'n'. A common mistake.

>: It is nice to have a "Kaufmann" scold us about "hate-mongering crap."
>Hmm... I thought I was taking issue with Rick Savage, not you specifically,
>Friedrich.  Is "Rick Savage" an IHR member then?

But why can't we help each other?

>: Could you possibly be related to a Theodore N. Kaufmann of an earlier 

I have to chide Fritz on this one.  It's "Kaufman."  He should have known 
better.

>Not that I'm aware of. Of course, a lot of my pre-1940's relatives were
>'relocated to Madagascar' by the Nazi government,
>so whose to know where the branches of the
>family ended up. Obviously, spellings with 2 'n's' are possible. I'll
>have to ask.

>: generation who gave us in March, 1941, nearly nine months before Pearl 
>: Harbor, that sensational book entitled: Germany Must Perish?  In that 
>: book, that other Kaufmann provided a detailed program for exterminating 
>: the Germans by sterilizing almost the entire male population or at least 
>: 48 million of them with the services of 20,000 surgeons performing 25 
>: operrations per day.  Time magazine called it a "sensational" idea.

>: Surely, the two of you must be related or is it simply that you are both 
>: Jewish.

>Must be? In your opinion, perhaps. Tell you what - I'm going to the library
>in the next week or so in NYC; I'll see if I can scare this book up
>and the Time magazine review. Maybe there's some biographical information
>about the author, which may help me trace whether he's related.

Incidentally, no established U.S. publisher would touch the book.  Thus
the copyright page says: 

                 Copyright, 1941, By
                 Theodore N. Kaufman

The Time Magazine reviewer didn't like it either; he really panned it.

                  Ross Vicksell


Article 12924 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Publishers responsible for ads they choose to publish
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <1994Jun23.234407.6871@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 06:11:04 GMT
Lines: 23

pierce@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce) writes:

>According to Deborah E. Lipstadt in _Denying the Holocaust : the
>growing assault on truth and memory_ (New York : Free Press), 1993:

>p. 194-195

>    "The argument that not publishing the ad constituted
>     censorship was not only a misinterpretation of the
>     First Amendment [to the Constitution of the USA] but
>     disingenuous. The editorial boards that reached this
>     decision ignored the fact that they all had policies
>     that prevented them from running racist, sexist,
>     prejudicial, or religiously offensive ads. ...
>     Recognizing this inconsistency, some of the boards ...
>     argued that Holocaust denial was not anti-semitic and
>     therefore not offensive."

I agree with them. Would you like to try for "racist","sexist", or
"religiously offensive?" 

               Ross Vicksell



Article 12926 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org> <2uffl4$h54@Venus.mcs.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 07:01:44 GMT
Lines: 17

Chris Krolczyk (krolczyk@MCS.COM) wrote:
: Last time I looked, the US didn't resort to the mass execution of Germans 
: after they won the war, Berg. 

Look again. Tha American army deliberately starved 1,000,000 German POWs
to death after the war. It's documented in James Bacque's book Other
Losses.  Bacque recently corroborated his findings by checking the records
in the Soviet archives that dealt with German POWs there. 

: Oh. I see. I take it that the Luftwaffe was just taking a mass observational
: flight over the Balkans, Great Britain France and the Low Countries during 
: different stages of the war, then? If the US resorted to the bombing of 
: civilian targets, they were scarcely the innovators in that department. 

No, the British were.

                  Ross Vicksell

Article 12940 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Rudolf Hess (was Re: Real War Criminals)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org>  	<2uf8m2$i3r@mary.iia.org> 
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 20:50:36 GMT
Lines: 26

bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:


>From: bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg)

>>In March 1941, however, Rudolf Hess the
>>second or third most important Nazi flew to Britain alone at great risk to
>>his life to prove with his own physical presence that Germany was
>>absolutely sincere about wanting to end the war and make peace with
>>Britain.

>Gee, I thought the party line was that he was insane. He certainly did
>not have the authority to do this and there's much speculation about
>what he was up to. Are you sure you checked this particular view of
>history out with your superiors? The usual party line here from IHR is
>that Hess was a traitor.

Not so. The official party line is that Hess was a martyr for the cause of
peace and that the British murdered him at Spandau to shut him up for
good.  His son Wolf spoke at a recent IHR conference. 

Your ignorance about this matter make me wonder whether your IHR Journal
subscription has run out. If it has, maybe we could pass the hat and get
it going again. 

              Ross Vicksell


Article 12941 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org>  	 
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 21:01:24 GMT
Lines: 25

bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:


>>>Then why were the Nazis running U-boats off the coast of NYC and into
>>>the harbor?
>>
>>How many ships did they sink in the harbor?  Or was the real concern that
>>two pronged attack Germany and Japan had planned, the Germans landing on
>>the East coast and Japanese on the West coast? 
>>
>>                 Ross Vicksell

>They didn't sink any boats in the harbor, is that the only measure?

>I'm not sure what your point is but it would hardly be a crazy thing
>for Americans to be worrying about that two-pronged attack in late
>1941.

It was a crazy thing.  The Japanese couldn't even invade Hawaii, let alone
the West Coast.  The Germans had 3000 miles of Ocean and the combined
British and American fleets in the way.  The U.S. was never in the
slightest danger of invasion. 

                  Ross Vicksell



Article 12942 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Consequences of the Big Lie
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <0006D562.fc@nile.com> <2u1v31$9jo@csi0.csi.UOttawa.CA> 	 <2u4vim$7jd@csi0.csi.UOttawa.CA> 	  	  
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 21:33:00 GMT
Lines: 27

bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:


>From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>>Let's get back to the real world.  After WWII the victors made the rules, 
>>just like after WWI.  As a result 20,000,000 Germans got ejected from 
>>lands they had been occupying for centuries.  This is worse than what 
>>happened to the Jews.

>What are you talking about? What 20,000,000 Germans?

I'm sorry. It was only 15,000,000.  20,000,000 was the number of Russian 
deaths in WW II.  I get big numbers mixed up sometimes.

"... following the end of World War II, approximately fifteen million
ethnic Germans were forcibly expelled from their homes in Poland,
Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia, and other Central and
Eastern European areas where their families had lived for centuries.  Two
million died in the process." 

            Alan M. Dershowitz (Chutzpah, 215)

Dershowitz cites this in his book as a contemporary precedent for the
expulsion of the Palestinians from Palestine.  Both expulsions were
perfectly legit, in his opinion. 

                        Ross Vicksell


Article 12944 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Consequences of the Big Lie
Date: 25 Jun 1994 19:05:08 -0400
Organization: International Internet Association.
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <2uid74$q74@mary.iia.org>
References:  <0006D562.fc@nile.com> <2u1v31$9jo@csi0.csi.UOttawa.CA> 	 
NNTP-Posting-Host: mary.iia.org

Gee Mr. McFee, I was beginning to like you but now you turn out to be 
just another, All-American dumb slob.
 
The fact is that millions of Germans, probably seventeen million, were 
forced out of Sudetenland, Pomerania and East Prussis.  Large numbers, 
probably in the millions, were murdered in the process.

>No Germans got kicked out of the Sudetenland, Pomerania or East Prussia. 
>Germany lost a war of aggression that it had started and lost territory as
>a result.  It neither got, nor deserved, a pfennig of reparations.  In
>fact, as you very well know, and in spite of your beloved Fuehrer's lies,
>the Sudetenland had *never* belonged to Germany in recorded history.


The Sudetenland had never belonged to Czechoslovatakia either--in fact, 
their had never even been a Czechoslovakia.  Look it up--you'll see that I am 
right, as usual.

Woody Wilson's Fourteen points promised everybody they could choose, self
determination, as to which country they would belong to but the Sudeten
Germans, the second largest ethnic group in Czechoslovakia, were denied
this choice.  They had been part of the Austrian Empire until WW1, but
they would almost certainly have voted for union with Germany just as the
Austrian parliament did in 1919.  In fact, the Austrian parliament under
Karl Renner voted unanimously for union with Germany but they were
prevented from doing so by the treaty of St.Germain.  Nonetheless, they
continued to call Austria "Deutsch-Oestereich" for years, thereafter.  The
Sudeten Germans would have been even more inclined to vote the same
way.  Eventually, however, Hitler rescued them from Benes and his
pro-Soviet government.  The English Lord Runciman supported the Sudeten 
Germans and spelled out their various persecutions in his famousreport. 

The expulsion of, I believe three million, Sudeten Germana and the mass 
murder of several hundred thousand of them is openly admitted today 
by Czech President Havel who has apologized for this additional crime by 
the defenders of democracy.

Look it up, you'll see that I'm right as usual.

FPBERG 


Article 12960 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Hess (was Re: Real War Criminals)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org>  	<2uf8m2$i3r@mary.iia.org>  	 
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 1994 04:26:15 GMT
Lines: 49

bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:


>From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>>Not so. The official party line is that Hess was a martyr for the cause of
>>peace and that the British murdered him at Spandau to shut him up for
>>good.  His son Wolf spoke at a recent IHR conference. 

>Pardon me, I guess I've been missing my Bundt cell meetings...

>Then again your own (IHR) Carlos Porter wrote:

>	Hess appears to have been a man who could be totally insane one
>	moment, and brilliantly lucid, sane and logical a moment later.  It is
>	possible that this condition was acquired in Britain.

Neither I nor Carlos Porter have any affiliation with the IHR.  I'm with 
CODOH, remember?   Sure, the IHR peddles some of his books, but so what?

>> and that the British murdered him at Spandau to shut him up for
>>good.  His son Wolf spoke at a recent IHR conference. 

>You mean in 1988 (when did Hess die in Spandau? Thereabouts.)
I forget exactly when Hess died.  His son spoke at one of the the last 
IHR meetings.

>Gosh, the British certainly took their time responding to this
>"threat".

There was a danger at the time of his being pardoned, and spilling the beans.

>>Your ignorance about this matter make me wonder whether your IHR Journal
>>subscription has run out. If it has, maybe we could pass the hat and get
>>it going again. 

>I have never had a subscription to the IHR Journal. In fact, I have
>never even seen one except as reproduced on these lists. Does it
>accept advertising?  

Alas, no. Reminds me of some college papers we've dealt with.

            Ross Vicksell 


>-- 
>        -Barry Shein

>Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
>Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 12961 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org>  	  	 
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 1994 04:57:41 GMT
Lines: 29

bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

>>The U.S. was never in the
>>slightest danger of invasion. 

>Well, 20/20 hindsight. Of course not, because the US did what they did
>and didn't let the Nazis progress one step further. It's nice that you
>believe that had the US done nothing all would have been safe and
>sound. Tell it to the Poles, French, Belgians, Greeks, Czechs, Dutch,
>etc. Gee, it sure worked out well for them...

>What's funny is that I fully believe Hitler's goals were to basically
>take over the Western world, and then some (e.g. the entire ring of
>the Mediterranean at least.)

>I don't believe Hitler particularly hid these ambitions or denied
>them, particularly as things got rolling.

Hitler made it pretty clear that his goals were Lebensraum and German
hegemony on the Europeaan continent, no more. Show me a quote to the
contrary.  If he had any secret ambitions to "take over the Western world"
he sure kept them to himself. 

       Ross Vicksell
>-- 
>        -Barry Shein

>Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
>Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 12960 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Hess (was Re: Real War Criminals)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org>  	<2uf8m2$i3r@mary.iia.org>  	 
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 1994 04:26:15 GMT
Lines: 49

bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:


>From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>>Not so. The official party line is that Hess was a martyr for the cause of
>>peace and that the British murdered him at Spandau to shut him up for
>>good.  His son Wolf spoke at a recent IHR conference. 

>Pardon me, I guess I've been missing my Bundt cell meetings...

>Then again your own (IHR) Carlos Porter wrote:

>	Hess appears to have been a man who could be totally insane one
>	moment, and brilliantly lucid, sane and logical a moment later.  It is
>	possible that this condition was acquired in Britain.

Neither I nor Carlos Porter have any affiliation with the IHR.  I'm with 
CODOH, remember?   Sure, the IHR peddles some of his books, but so what?

>> and that the British murdered him at Spandau to shut him up for
>>good.  His son Wolf spoke at a recent IHR conference. 

>You mean in 1988 (when did Hess die in Spandau? Thereabouts.)
I forget exactly when Hess died.  His son spoke at one of the the last 
IHR meetings.

>Gosh, the British certainly took their time responding to this
>"threat".

There was a danger at the time of his being pardoned, and spilling the beans.

>>Your ignorance about this matter make me wonder whether your IHR Journal
>>subscription has run out. If it has, maybe we could pass the hat and get
>>it going again. 

>I have never had a subscription to the IHR Journal. In fact, I have
>never even seen one except as reproduced on these lists. Does it
>accept advertising?  

Alas, no. Reminds me of some college papers we've dealt with.

            Ross Vicksell 


>-- 
>        -Barry Shein

>Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
>Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 12961 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Real War Criminals
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org>  	  	 
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 1994 04:57:41 GMT
Lines: 29

bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

>>The U.S. was never in the
>>slightest danger of invasion. 

>Well, 20/20 hindsight. Of course not, because the US did what they did
>and didn't let the Nazis progress one step further. It's nice that you
>believe that had the US done nothing all would have been safe and
>sound. Tell it to the Poles, French, Belgians, Greeks, Czechs, Dutch,
>etc. Gee, it sure worked out well for them...

>What's funny is that I fully believe Hitler's goals were to basically
>take over the Western world, and then some (e.g. the entire ring of
>the Mediterranean at least.)

>I don't believe Hitler particularly hid these ambitions or denied
>them, particularly as things got rolling.

Hitler made it pretty clear that his goals were Lebensraum and German
hegemony on the Europeaan continent, no more. Show me a quote to the
contrary.  If he had any secret ambitions to "take over the Western world"
he sure kept them to himself. 

       Ross Vicksell
>-- 
>        -Barry Shein

>Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
>Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD

Article 12977 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Vicksell turns to Bacque, looks the fool.
Date: 26 Jun 1994 12:12:10 -0400
Organization: International Internet Association.
Lines: 131
Message-ID: <2uk9cq$f04@mary.iia.org>
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org> <2uffl4$h54@Venus.mcs.com>    <1994Jun26.005452.14618@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mary.iia.org

Dear McVay, oy weh--oy weh,

Backing away from the Diesels for murder story, are we?  Found something 
safer like the treatment of German POWs? 

Except for the number of 1 million deaths which may indeed be too high, 
James Bacques' book is essentially correct.  The 
horrors of Andersonville, that was the Civil War, 
were pale compared to what the US inflicted on 
German POWs at the end of WW2.  What is far worse 
than what happened at Andersonville was that there 
was no excuse--the US military had an abundance of 
supplies including food which it deliberately 
withheld from the German POWs.

Apparently you actually believe this, McVay:
>Tell me this: of the thousands of Germans who *survived* American>prison camps during and after the war, none has ever reported
>anything like what Bacque talks about.  Many of these people
>are still alive, and can be interviewed.  I've got a whole 
>book of oral history of such experiences.  

>Why has nobody ever reported the supposed mass killing?

There are thousands of former German POWs from those camps still around 
WHO HAVE spoken out.  Many wrote replies which appeared in "Der Spiegel" 
in essential agreement with Bacques' book after the book first appeared 
in Germany.  

One relative of mine, Franz Boyen, had surrendered to the Americans in 
northern Italy.  His treatment by Americans was bad but then he was 
turned over to the French and imprisoned in Marseilles where conditions 
were horrendous.  One trick the French played one day was to tell the 
prisoners rather suddenly that they were free to go home.  When a group 
actually walked out the gate, they were mowed down by machine guns.  
Another German POW imprisoned by Americans, Rudolf Ressimueller-an 
Austrian German for what its worth--remarked at the gratuitous 
sadism which seemed to characterize the Americans.  They had to eat to 
grass while the American guards made a show of throwing food onto the 
ground to "tease" the prisoners.  The fact that hundreds of German POWs 
were dying from starvation and disease in that camp made no difference.

The most eloquent personal testimony that I have actually heard is from
Martin Brech who was an American guard for three months at the Andernach
POW camp.  Brech lives in NY and is also known to Ross Vicksell.
For three months he participated in the abuse of the German POWs,
reluctantly and under repeated protest which was of no avail.  The
prisoners were given a minimum of food to which they added grass for as
long as that was available, they were denied any blankets or shelter, and
worst of all--they were denied water even though the camp was within sight
of the Rhine river.  When a group broke out and ran toward the Rhine, they
were mowed down.  Occasional machine gun barrages into the camp at night
seemed to break the boredom for the guards. Eventually after sometime, I
do not know how long, the prisoners were allowed to dig a slit-trench. 
Some of the weaker prisoners fell in and drowned.  When Brech described
one such incident which he actually saw, he had to stop his speech and
could not continue for almost five minutes.  In addition to the sadism 
displayed in the camp, the Americans behaved as badly in towns outside of 
the camp.  In general, to be fair and accurate, near the end of the war 
and for a long time thereafter, American GIs behaved like pigs--I will leave 
the details for your imagination and for another posting. 

An Aunt of mine Lina Klein remembered seeing American guards shooting at 
civilians who were trying to bring food to the starving German prisoners 
at a camp near Krefeld. 

Brech has appeared in TV programs on this subject.  Other guards who at
first were willing to go public also, have since then been "persuaded" to 
remain silent. 
 
>[A German user commented...]

> Having read the first edition of his book and some other 'second hand'
> material on treatment of german POWs by allied forces as well I can in
> no way agree with Bacque's claim that more than 1 million POWs died
> in french and american custody.
> The true points in his book are 
> 1) The record keeping by american forces is a mess. 
> 2) Treatment of german POWs by France was criminal (100.000 presumed
>    dead by other sources too)  
> 3) Treatment of german POW by US forces was not according to international
>    standards
> 4) Eisenhower used legal tricks (POWs reclassified as DEPs etc.)
> 5) Eisenhower had psychic problem with regard to Germany
 
The anecdotal evidence for the atrocious treatment of German POWs is 
overwhelming, especially in a Rhine village like Bonn, but I am sure for 
political reasons it was downplayed and officially suppressed by the puppet 
government that the Germans were allowed to have for decades after WW2.

Regarding Eisenhower, I must repeat what I have said earlier and that is 
that he was one of the great war criminals of all time.  If he wasn't 
criminally insane, then no one ever was.  He was also for a time after the 
war, the president of my alma mater Columbia University where he acquired a 
well-deserved reputation as a good administrator but as a moron on 
political science.  Stephen Ambrose has made his career out of the 
Eisenhower mythology and as an apologist for Eisenhower.  The Eisenhower 
legend is the butter on his bread and he is merely disgracing himself, 
rather typical of American hackacademics, in the long run with his 
fanatical defense of Ike and the WW2 mythology. 

>The total of German POW losses in the West during that time was between
>6,000 and 10,000 persons 
-------the above merely shows how out of touch with reality  one can become.

The following is probably worth examining carefully and I am sure Bacques 
is doing that now for his new book coming out probably in the Fall, stay 
in touch for details about a NY Conference with Bacques as principal speaker:

>Most convincing evidence against Bacque's hypothesis is that the "Deutsche
>Diensstelle" (German registration office for military losses) did register
>less than 60,000 missing soldiers on the Western front and in the Western
>part of the Reich during the whole period 1939-1945/46. Those numbers are
>including missing personnel during the bomb war. As the pensions for the
>relatives of missing/killed soldiers are based on the data of that office,
>it would be impossible to hide away hundreds of thousands of MIAs. 

If Maschke dared to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth in the present, Jew-dominated Germany, his career would be ruined.  
People in  Germany at the present face, for example, a three-year jail 
sentence merely for saying: "The Holocaust is a Hoax."

>Surely this isn't the best CODOH has to offer?
The best that CODOH has to offer focuses of the Holocaust Hoax.  For 
information, contact or write:

CODOH
P.O. Box 3267
Visalia, CA 93278
Fax: 1-209-733-2653

FPBERG


Article 12982 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rudolf Hess (was Re: Real War Criminals)
Date: 26 Jun 1994 16:07:55 -0400
Organization: International Internet Association.
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <2ukn6r$bc@mary.iia.org>
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org>  	<2uf8m2$i3r@mary.iia.org>  	 
NNTP-Posting-Host: mary.iia.org

Dear Reader,

The reason for why Hess was probably murdered by British assassins was 
because Gorbachev had just a short time earlier made it clear that he and 
the Soviet government would have no further objections to his release.  
If Hess had been released, he would have been free to talk about what 
really happened in Britain and before his flight.

FPBERG



Article 12983 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!EU.net!uunet!ankh.iia.org!mary.iia.org!not-for-mail
From: bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rudolf Hess (was Re: Real War Criminals)
Date: 26 Jun 1994 16:12:26 -0400
Organization: International Internet Association.
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <2uknfa$rg@mary.iia.org>
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org>  	<2uf8m2$i3r@mary.iia.org>  	 
NNTP-Posting-Host: mary.iia.org

Dear Readers,

Everyone can and should subscribe to:

The Journal of Historical Review
P.O. Box 2739
Newport Beach, CA 92659
cost per year is: $40.oo

FPBERG





Article 12986 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:12986 alt.usenet.kooks:4729
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!EU.net!uunet!ankh.iia.org!mary.iia.org!not-for-mail
From: bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: The consistency of the denier mind (was re: Bacque)
Date: 26 Jun 1994 16:46:46 -0400
Organization: International Internet Association.
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <2ukpfm$38o@mary.iia.org>
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org>  <1994Jun26.005452.14618@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <2uk9cq$f04@mary.iia.org> <2ukh31$152@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mary.iia.org

Dear Mr. Stein,

There are lots and lots of Jewish eyewitness accounts about their 
experiences in German concentration camps, but there are hardly any 
so-called eyewitness accounts of mass murder in gas chambers.  There are 
some but, I repeat, very few.  There are only about a dozen that I 
have ever seen and of those, most are so obviously phoney that they are not 
even used by the Holocaust pseudo-scholars such as Hilberg and Martin 
Gilbert.  The one "eyewitness" that they all hang their hats on again and 
again is SS Lieutenant Kurt Gerstein and his story is the Diesel story.  
That story is rubbish for many reasons--especially for the inherent 
absurdity of any Diesel for mass murder methodology.  

If you think you have a better piece of socalled eyewitness testimony,
please let us all know about it.  Don't just say you have lots and lots of
eyewitness testimony--anybody can say that.  Put up or shutup. The fact is
you ain't got anything better than Kurt Gerstein and no German wartime
documents either. 

Put up or shutup!

FPBERG


Article 12977 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!swrinde!pipex!uknet!EU.net!uunet!ankh.iia.org!mary.iia.org!not-for-mail
From: bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Vicksell turns to Bacque, looks the fool.
Date: 26 Jun 1994 12:12:10 -0400
Organization: International Internet Association.
Lines: 131
Message-ID: <2uk9cq$f04@mary.iia.org>
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org> <2uffl4$h54@Venus.mcs.com>    <1994Jun26.005452.14618@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mary.iia.org

Dear McVay, oy weh--oy weh,

Backing away from the Diesels for murder story, are we?  Found something 
safer like the treatment of German POWs? 

Except for the number of 1 million deaths which may indeed be too high, 
James Bacques' book is essentially correct.  The 
horrors of Andersonville, that was the Civil War, 
were pale compared to what the US inflicted on 
German POWs at the end of WW2.  What is far worse 
than what happened at Andersonville was that there 
was no excuse--the US military had an abundance of 
supplies including food which it deliberately 
withheld from the German POWs.

Apparently you actually believe this, McVay:
>Tell me this: of the thousands of Germans who *survived* American>prison camps during and after the war, none has ever reported
>anything like what Bacque talks about.  Many of these people
>are still alive, and can be interviewed.  I've got a whole 
>book of oral history of such experiences.  

>Why has nobody ever reported the supposed mass killing?

There are thousands of former German POWs from those camps still around 
WHO HAVE spoken out.  Many wrote replies which appeared in "Der Spiegel" 
in essential agreement with Bacques' book after the book first appeared 
in Germany.  

One relative of mine, Franz Boyen, had surrendered to the Americans in 
northern Italy.  His treatment by Americans was bad but then he was 
turned over to the French and imprisoned in Marseilles where conditions 
were horrendous.  One trick the French played one day was to tell the 
prisoners rather suddenly that they were free to go home.  When a group 
actually walked out the gate, they were mowed down by machine guns.  
Another German POW imprisoned by Americans, Rudolf Ressimueller-an 
Austrian German for what its worth--remarked at the gratuitous 
sadism which seemed to characterize the Americans.  They had to eat to 
grass while the American guards made a show of throwing food onto the 
ground to "tease" the prisoners.  The fact that hundreds of German POWs 
were dying from starvation and disease in that camp made no difference.

The most eloquent personal testimony that I have actually heard is from
Martin Brech who was an American guard for three months at the Andernach
POW camp.  Brech lives in NY and is also known to Ross Vicksell.
For three months he participated in the abuse of the German POWs,
reluctantly and under repeated protest which was of no avail.  The
prisoners were given a minimum of food to which they added grass for as
long as that was available, they were denied any blankets or shelter, and
worst of all--they were denied water even though the camp was within sight
of the Rhine river.  When a group broke out and ran toward the Rhine, they
were mowed down.  Occasional machine gun barrages into the camp at night
seemed to break the boredom for the guards. Eventually after sometime, I
do not know how long, the prisoners were allowed to dig a slit-trench. 
Some of the weaker prisoners fell in and drowned.  When Brech described
one such incident which he actually saw, he had to stop his speech and
could not continue for almost five minutes.  In addition to the sadism 
displayed in the camp, the Americans behaved as badly in towns outside of 
the camp.  In general, to be fair and accurate, near the end of the war 
and for a long time thereafter, American GIs behaved like pigs--I will leave 
the details for your imagination and for another posting. 

An Aunt of mine Lina Klein remembered seeing American guards shooting at 
civilians who were trying to bring food to the starving German prisoners 
at a camp near Krefeld. 

Brech has appeared in TV programs on this subject.  Other guards who at
first were willing to go public also, have since then been "persuaded" to 
remain silent. 
 
>[A German user commented...]

> Having read the first edition of his book and some other 'second hand'
> material on treatment of german POWs by allied forces as well I can in
> no way agree with Bacque's claim that more than 1 million POWs died
> in french and american custody.
> The true points in his book are 
> 1) The record keeping by american forces is a mess. 
> 2) Treatment of german POWs by France was criminal (100.000 presumed
>    dead by other sources too)  
> 3) Treatment of german POW by US forces was not according to international
>    standards
> 4) Eisenhower used legal tricks (POWs reclassified as DEPs etc.)
> 5) Eisenhower had psychic problem with regard to Germany
 
The anecdotal evidence for the atrocious treatment of German POWs is 
overwhelming, especially in a Rhine village like Bonn, but I am sure for 
political reasons it was downplayed and officially suppressed by the puppet 
government that the Germans were allowed to have for decades after WW2.

Regarding Eisenhower, I must repeat what I have said earlier and that is 
that he was one of the great war criminals of all time.  If he wasn't 
criminally insane, then no one ever was.  He was also for a time after the 
war, the president of my alma mater Columbia University where he acquired a 
well-deserved reputation as a good administrator but as a moron on 
political science.  Stephen Ambrose has made his career out of the 
Eisenhower mythology and as an apologist for Eisenhower.  The Eisenhower 
legend is the butter on his bread and he is merely disgracing himself, 
rather typical of American hackacademics, in the long run with his 
fanatical defense of Ike and the WW2 mythology. 

>The total of German POW losses in the West during that time was between
>6,000 and 10,000 persons 
-------the above merely shows how out of touch with reality  one can become.

The following is probably worth examining carefully and I am sure Bacques 
is doing that now for his new book coming out probably in the Fall, stay 
in touch for details about a NY Conference with Bacques as principal speaker:

>Most convincing evidence against Bacque's hypothesis is that the "Deutsche
>Diensstelle" (German registration office for military losses) did register
>less than 60,000 missing soldiers on the Western front and in the Western
>part of the Reich during the whole period 1939-1945/46. Those numbers are
>including missing personnel during the bomb war. As the pensions for the
>relatives of missing/killed soldiers are based on the data of that office,
>it would be impossible to hide away hundreds of thousands of MIAs. 

If Maschke dared to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth in the present, Jew-dominated Germany, his career would be ruined.  
People in  Germany at the present face, for example, a three-year jail 
sentence merely for saying: "The Holocaust is a Hoax."

>Surely this isn't the best CODOH has to offer?
The best that CODOH has to offer focuses of the Holocaust Hoax.  For 
information, contact or write:

CODOH
P.O. Box 3267
Visalia, CA 93278
Fax: 1-209-733-2653

FPBERG


Article 12986 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:12986 alt.usenet.kooks:4729
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!EU.net!uunet!ankh.iia.org!mary.iia.org!not-for-mail
From: bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: The consistency of the denier mind (was re: Bacque)
Date: 26 Jun 1994 16:46:46 -0400
Organization: International Internet Association.
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <2ukpfm$38o@mary.iia.org>
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org>  <1994Jun26.005452.14618@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <2uk9cq$f04@mary.iia.org> <2ukh31$152@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mary.iia.org

Dear Mr. Stein,

There are lots and lots of Jewish eyewitness accounts about their 
experiences in German concentration camps, but there are hardly any 
so-called eyewitness accounts of mass murder in gas chambers.  There are 
some but, I repeat, very few.  There are only about a dozen that I 
have ever seen and of those, most are so obviously phoney that they are not 
even used by the Holocaust pseudo-scholars such as Hilberg and Martin 
Gilbert.  The one "eyewitness" that they all hang their hats on again and 
again is SS Lieutenant Kurt Gerstein and his story is the Diesel story.  
That story is rubbish for many reasons--especially for the inherent 
absurdity of any Diesel for mass murder methodology.  

If you think you have a better piece of socalled eyewitness testimony,
please let us all know about it.  Don't just say you have lots and lots of
eyewitness testimony--anybody can say that.  Put up or shutup. The fact is
you ain't got anything better than Kurt Gerstein and no German wartime
documents either. 

Put up or shutup!

FPBERG


Article 12994 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:12994 alt.usenet.kooks:4742
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!swrinde!pipex!bt!uknet!EU.net!uunet!ankh.iia.org!mary.iia.org!not-for-mail
From: bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: The consistency of the denier mind (was re: Bacque)
Date: 26 Jun 1994 20:05:11 -0400
Organization: International Internet Association.
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <2ul53n$ggl@mary.iia.org>
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org>  <1994Jun26.005452.14618@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <2uk9cq$f04@mary.iia.org> <2ukh31$152@access2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mary.iia.org

Dear Readers, 

The treatment of Jewish prisoners in German concentration was never as
bad as that of the German POWs in many of Eisenhower's death camps after
the war.  No one, even in the wildest of the so-called "survivors
accounts" has ever claimed that Jews were denied blankets and had to sleep
in the open or in whatever holes they could dig with their bare hands. 
Even under the worst of conditions in German concentration camps which
occurred in the last months of the war, the Jews at least had
shelters--roofs over their heads and food.  Even when the quantities of 
food were meager, they did not resort to eating grass.  

The reason conditions in Bergen-Belsen and other German concentration
camps were as bad as they were was not because of any policy of the Nazis
or SS, it was because of Allied bombing of everything that moved on the
ground including, as Chuck Yeager explained in his autobiography, farmers
tilling their potatoe fields--nice, easy, safe targets for the GIs. 
Eisenhower's abuse of German POWs carried out all along the chain of
command was deliberate and atrocious and inexcusable.

The causes for the high death rate in Bergen-Belsen and other camps was 
spelled out clearly at the end of the war in the Journal of the American 
Medical Associaition and Lancet and many other medical publications.  The 
principal cause of death was typhus.

For more information, subscribe to: 
The Journal for Historical Review 
P.O. Box 2739
Newport Beach, CA 92659

also, support:
Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust
P.O, Box 3267
Visalia, CA 93278
fax:1-209-733-2653

The truth may set you free!

FPBERG


Article 13003 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!decwrl!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Vicksell turns to Bacque, looks the fool.
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org> <2uffl4$h54@Venus.mcs.com>    <1994Jun26.005452.14618@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <2uk9cq$f04@mary.iia.org>
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 03:48:03 GMT
Lines: 9

As Fritz says, we know Martin Brech, who was a guard at the Andernach 
POW camp in the Rhine valley. Martin has kept in touch with James Bacque, 
and knows all about Bacque's findings in the Soviet archives, which Ncvay 
inexplicably failed to mention.  Instead he gives us a lot of stale tripe 
from various court historians.

Anyway, I'll see if I can  get Martin to write something up for me to post.

             Ross Vicksell


Article 13058 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.kei.com!babbage.ece.uc.edu!ankh.iia.org!mary.iia.org!not-for-mail
From: bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Berg avoids explaining his lie...
Date: 27 Jun 1994 13:00:34 -0400
Organization: International Internet Association.
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <2un0ji$nnb@mary.iia.org>
References:    <1994Jun26.005452.14618@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <2uk9cq$f04@mary.iia.org> <1994Jun26.225848.19490@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mary.iia.org

Dear McVay, 

Please address my simple challenge:

Explain to me why you believe a chamber filled with the exhaust from a 
500Hp Diesel is any more toxic than a chamber filled with the exhaust 
from a 6HP Diesel.  

Put up or Shut up!

FPBERG


Article 13059 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The consistency of the denier mind (was Re: Bacque)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org> <1994Jun26.005452.14618@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <2uk9cq$f04@mary.iia.org>  <2ulm5m$7ev@access1.digex.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 06:11:31 GMT
Lines: 43

mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:

>In article ,
>Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>>As Fritz says, we know Martin Brech, who was a guard at the Andernach 
>>POW camp in the Rhine valley.

>    Again, why do the deniers believe Martin Brech, but not Kurt Gerstein?
Gerstein was psychological basket case while Brech is quite rational (in the 
eyes of this beholder)
>    Why do they believe Brech, but not Rudolf Ho"ss?
Hoess was tortured by the British to get his crazy "confession."
>    Why do they believe Brech, but not Bo"ck?  Stark?  Broad?  Kremer?
You mean Josef Kramer?  He also was tortures by the allies.  The other 
ones I don't know that much about, though I have heard of Perry(?) 
Broad.  Tell me more about who they are and what they said and I'll try 
to oblige you.

>>Martin has kept in touch with James Bacque, 
>>and knows all about Bacque's findings in the Soviet archives, which Ncvay 
>>inexplicably failed to mention.

>    Why do they believe these Soviet documents, but not any documents 
>found by the Soviets concerning Nazi extermination of Jews, such as the 
>letter from Just to Rauff?
Lot easier to forge a letter than archive material, especially if the 
latter turns up in more than one place in the archives.
>>Instead he gives us a lot of stale tripe from various court historians.

>>Anyway, I'll see if I can get Martin to write something up for me to post.

>    By all means, Ross, give us some *fresh* tripe.
On the way.  I sent Bacque Mcvay's post and Fritz's response.  Brech says 
he'll pass the material on to James Bacque, who he says is quite good 
about replying to his questioners.
>    But also please answer the questions above.  They are not rhetorical. 

>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.

          Ross Vicksell


Article 13058 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.kei.com!babbage.ece.uc.edu!ankh.iia.org!mary.iia.org!not-for-mail
From: bergf@mary.iia.org (Friedrich Berg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Berg avoids explaining his lie...
Date: 27 Jun 1994 13:00:34 -0400
Organization: International Internet Association.
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <2un0ji$nnb@mary.iia.org>
References:    <1994Jun26.005452.14618@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <2uk9cq$f04@mary.iia.org> <1994Jun26.225848.19490@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mary.iia.org

Dear McVay, 

Please address my simple challenge:

Explain to me why you believe a chamber filled with the exhaust from a 
500Hp Diesel is any more toxic than a chamber filled with the exhaust 
from a 6HP Diesel.  

Put up or Shut up!

FPBERG


Article 13059 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The consistency of the denier mind (was Re: Bacque)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org> <1994Jun26.005452.14618@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <2uk9cq$f04@mary.iia.org>  <2ulm5m$7ev@access1.digex.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 06:11:31 GMT
Lines: 43

mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:

>In article ,
>Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>>As Fritz says, we know Martin Brech, who was a guard at the Andernach 
>>POW camp in the Rhine valley.

>    Again, why do the deniers believe Martin Brech, but not Kurt Gerstein?
Gerstein was psychological basket case while Brech is quite rational (in the 
eyes of this beholder)
>    Why do they believe Brech, but not Rudolf Ho"ss?
Hoess was tortured by the British to get his crazy "confession."
>    Why do they believe Brech, but not Bo"ck?  Stark?  Broad?  Kremer?
You mean Josef Kramer?  He also was tortures by the allies.  The other 
ones I don't know that much about, though I have heard of Perry(?) 
Broad.  Tell me more about who they are and what they said and I'll try 
to oblige you.

>>Martin has kept in touch with James Bacque, 
>>and knows all about Bacque's findings in the Soviet archives, which Ncvay 
>>inexplicably failed to mention.

>    Why do they believe these Soviet documents, but not any documents 
>found by the Soviets concerning Nazi extermination of Jews, such as the 
>letter from Just to Rauff?
Lot easier to forge a letter than archive material, especially if the 
latter turns up in more than one place in the archives.
>>Instead he gives us a lot of stale tripe from various court historians.

>>Anyway, I'll see if I can get Martin to write something up for me to post.

>    By all means, Ross, give us some *fresh* tripe.
On the way.  I sent Bacque Mcvay's post and Fritz's response.  Brech says 
he'll pass the material on to James Bacque, who he says is quite good 
about replying to his questioners.
>    But also please answer the questions above.  They are not rhetorical. 

>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.

          Ross Vicksell


Article 13099 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The consistency of the denier mind (was Re: Bacque)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org> <1994Jun26.005452.14618@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 	<2uk9cq$f04@mary.iia.org>  	<2ulm5m$7ev@access1.digex.net>  
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 21:32:11 GMT
Lines: 9

bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:


>I mean, what exactly can we agree on here? Anything? Was Hitler's
>first name really Adolf? Did WWII really occur?

That's a good start.  I do agree with you on these things.

           Ross Vicksell


Article 13100 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:13100 alt.usenet.kooks:4829
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The consistency of the denier mind (was re: Bacque)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2uk9cq$f04@mary.iia.org> <2ukh31$152@access2.digex.net> <2ul53n$ggl@mary.iia.org> <1994Jun27.005754.2851@scic.intel.com> <2ulh48$1vu@mary.iia.org> 
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 21:45:04 GMT
Lines: 12

mastrd@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.edu (Russell Mast) writes:

>What befuddles me is that every holocaust revisionist I've ever encountered
>believe that it SHOULD have taken place, or should take place soon.

It looks like you've met a really atypical bunch of revisionists out there
where you are. Ever revisionist I've ever met, and I've probably met a lot
more than you have, has said he SHOULDN'T have taken place. 

                   Ross Vicksell

              
Article 13109 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!news.ossi.com!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Consequences of the Big Lie
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: >  <1994Jun25.222801.13197@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 04:07:49 GMT
Lines: 18

kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

>In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) arrives at the most astounding conclusion:

>>Let's get back to the real world.  After WWII the victors made the rules, 
>>just like after WWII.  As a result 20,000,000 Germans got ejected from 
>>lands they had been occupying for centuries.  This is worse than what 
>>happened to the Jews.

>Nearly twelve million were exterminated by the Nazis, nearly half
>being Jews. They are _dead_. Yet Mr. Vicksell, with a straight face,
>pronounces that death is nothing, next to relocation!

Hey, the stock market has riz.  The last time I looked it at was 11,000,000.
Look, if you want to believe in this stuff, fine, but please don't try
to cram it down everyone else's throats.

             Ross Vicksell


Article 13110 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Treblinka: Excerpts from Judgements
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <1994Jun20.110003.10984@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  <2ug9h8$r9p@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 04:29:38 GMT
Lines: 28

ch140@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey G. Brown) writes:


>In a previous article, codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) says:

>>This seems to be Treblinka week.  Any idea of what happened to remains of 
>>the victims that didn't get moved to Israel?
>>
>>           Ross Vicksell 
>>

>Why am I reminded of the old riddle that goes:

>Q: A plane crashed directly on the US-Canadian border. Of the 175 people
>on board, 98 perished. Where were the survivors buried?

>A: Survivors don't get buried, stupid.

>If the whole point of the revisionists is that there was no Holocaust, why
>would Mr. Vicksell assume there _were_ any remains?

>JGB

I'm sorry I didn't make myself clearer. The original post said that some 
victim remains had been moved to Israel. I'm just asking what happens to 
remains of the other 800,000(?) plus victims.  Gone with the wind?

            Ross Vicksell


Article 13115 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The consistency of the denier mind (was Re: Bacque)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2ucc21$e6h@mary.iia.org>  <2ulm5m$7ev@access1.digex.net>  <2upccd$fcd@access2.digex.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 05:25:09 GMT
Lines: 15

The torture of Rudolf Hoess is describe in a book called Legions of 
Death, by a British officer who was there.  The Library of Congress 
probably has a copy.  Give them a call, Mike.

"With respect to Josef Kramer, Faurisson testified that a French doctor,
Dr. Fre(acute accent)jafon, in a book on Bergen-Belsen, stated that Kramer
was was beaten by the British and put in a refrigeration room for a night.
[That's REALLY cooling his heels.] Faurisson was not surpised that Kramer
sad there was no gas chamber in his first affidavit but said there were in
his second affidavit." 

              from Did Six Million Really Die, a report of the evidence 
              presented in the second Zuendel trial, in 1988.

                Ross Vicksell


Article 13116 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The consistency of the denier mind (was re: Bacque)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2unegt$on5@search01.news.aol.com> <2uo21s$hdi@access3.digex.net> 
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 05:33:55 GMT
Lines: 10

flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:

>The problem with the denier mind is that it is only able to discern
>black and white, and _nothing_ in between.
>--

Most of the people on your side talk as if the Nazis were the archest 
arch-fiends of all human history.  That's gray?

              Ross Vicksell

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