Archive/File: holocaust/usa/codoh vicksell.0994 Last-Modified: 1994/09/24 Article 15735 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!boulder!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Fritz Berg's Absence Message-ID:Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <33tiie$4qk@math.mps.ohio-state.edu> Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 03:24:44 GMT Lines: 8 I'm sorry I didn't make the contest rules clearer in the beginning, but each contestant will be limited to ONE (1) guess. I know this may strike you as ex post facto, but what's wrong with that? All entries must be submitted by midnight Saturday. Try to make it your single BEST piece of guesswork. Ross Vicksell Article 15850 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!ub!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Fresh blood? Message-ID: Keywords: alt.revisionism Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 20:30:51 GMT Lines: 65 As I think I've to;d you already, my main reason for going out the IHR conferernce this weekend is to recruit revisionists for alt.revisionism. Bradley's going to put in a plug for Internet and tell them to come and see me for more info. Here's our handout: COMMITTEE FOR OPEN DEBATE ON THE HOLOCAUST (CODOH) Director: Bradley R. Smith Box 3267 Visalia CA 93278 Tel/Fax: (209) 733 2653 ______________________________________________________________________ I N T E R N E T A N D R E V I S I O N I S T O U T R E A C H Getting the good news of Holocaust Revisionism out to the "silent majority" is what CODOH is all about. You all know about Bradley Smith's revisionist ads in college papers across the nation and the appearances of Bradley and David Cole on nationwide and local TV and radio shows. And, as the name of our organization implies, we're also interested in openly debating the so called "Holocaust." The only place this is actually going on, as far as I know, is on the Internet computer network, in a discussion group ("newsgroup") called alt.revisionism. As you probably know, Internet is a world-wide computer network that makes it extremely easy for people thousands of miles apart to communicate with each other. There are Internet discussion groups covering every topic under the sun, including Holocaust Revisionism. There is a large and growing audience following the battle of the Exterminationists vs. the Revisionists in this discussion group. And, best of all, there are opportunities for both sides to expand on topics, and build on what's come before. Here's where you hard-core revisionists can catch up on the latest revisionist and exterminationist arguments. And clearly it's a lot more interesting for the 'neutral' spectators to hear both sides of the story instead of just one. It's like a sporting event. So what's all this got to do with you? It's very simple. We want you to join in on the the fun. The costs of coming aboard are suprisingly modest: less than $1000 for a new computer or less than $500 for a second-hand one plus 10 to 20 dollars a month for Internet access. (In some parts of the country you can hook into Internet at NO monthly cost!) If you already have a computer, so much the better. A modem, a device that enables your computer to communicate with Internet, costs less than $100. We'll give you help getting set up with the necessary hardware and software and Internet connections. We're old hands at it. Your level of participation is entirely up to you - anywhere from pure spectating to frontline fighting for The Truth. And if you want to post stuff anonymously, that can be done, too. Another very nice facility on Internet is electronic mail (email). This is an ideal way to communicate with your fellow revisionists. It cost nothing, and your mail gets delivered almost immediately. So why wait? Come on in - the waters fine! Ross Vicksell New England Regional CODOH Director Phone/FAX: (617)272-0321 Article 15852 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: confessions of a revisionsit Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <33b69q$74h@news.xs4all.nl> <33c8bd$q67@news.xs4all.nl> <33dun5$d48@access1.digex.net> <33hpdm$re4@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <33msob$4ht@netaxs.com> Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 20:51:42 GMT Lines: 17 btrosko@netaxs.com (Brian Trosko) writes (quoting me) : >: One of the principle purveyors of Holocaust propaganda was the World >: Jewish Congress, which wanted the British to open Palestine to unlimited >: Jewish immigration. >: Another was the World Zionist Organization. >Sources, please, sources! And I sincerely hope whatever evidence you can >cite will hold up to the same standards by which you judge the sources of >Mssrs. Stein and McVey, or you'll simply look like a fool. We're waiting. This one is easy. When I get back from the IHR confab I'll give you citations galore. Ross Vicksell Article 15867 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Butz's version of CNN show Message-ID: Keywords: Butz Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 1994 02:40:25 GMT Lines: 300 As some of you may recall, Ken McVay posted an item a while back purporting to show how Arthur Butz was cowed by a righteous, albeit somewhat obscure, survivor, on a national TV talk shoe. I was unable to get a video of the show from the CNN tape library. It apparently was not one of their all-time best sellers; the guy at the tape library said no one had ever requested it before. There's an outside chance one could get a tape or transcript of the show from of the U.S. Holocaust Museum or the Simon Wiesenthal Center. I was just at the H. museum but I clean forgot to check. I also contacted Butz. I'm including in this post my letter to him (which incorporates McVay's post) and his responses. Ross Vicksell ************************************************************************ COMMITTEE FOR OPEN DEBATE ON THE HOLOCAUST (CODOH) Director: Bradley R. Smith Box 3267 Visalia CA 93278 Tel/Fax: (209) 733 2653 _________________________________________________________________________ Regional Directors: Andrew Allen(Northwest)Fax:(415)435-3166 David Cole(Southwest)Tel:(310)836-0211 Robert Countess, Ph.D. (South) Rolf Hermes(Texas) Tel/Fax: (210)519-8325 Ross Vicksell(New England) Tel/Fax: (617)272-0321 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Dr. Butz, I'm the CODOH person in New England. Fritz Berg and I have been participating in the "alt.revisionism" discussion group on Internet, where we are greatly outnumbered by exterminationists. Situation normal. One of them posted the following the other day. I would like you to comment on it, if you would be so kind. ... Thanks, Ross Vicksell ******************************************************************** Xref: netcom.com alt.revisionism:14550 Path: netcom.com!csus.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!mala.bc.ca!hakatac!oneb!kmcvay Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: BUTZ: "I don't want to hear anymore of this!" Message-ID: <1994Jul11.043512.18067@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 94 04:35:12 GMT Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac Summary: An Auschwitz survivor confronts Butz head-on - Butz turns tail and runs .. Lines: 145 Archive/File: holocaust/usa/ihr butz.002 Last-Modified: 1994/07/05 "Voice of An Auschwitz Survivor" A Survivor Fights Denials Including a Media Debate with Arthur Butz and An Account of This Survivor's Work in the Auschwitz Crematorium by Lilli Kopecky In my monograph, "In the Shadow of the Flames,"<1> I stated in the preface to Lecture 5<2> that the first comprehensive study dealing with neo-Nazism and denials of the Holocaust was published to my knowledge in 1977 by the "Public Committee of Survivors of Auschwitz and Other Extermination Camps" in Israel, of which I was SEcretary General until 1988. I wrote there of my conviction that we, the concentration camp survivors, have the moral obligation and sacred duty to warn the world so that the tragedy of our past may not be forgotten and repeated! In this article, I only want to prove that even ONE person -- alone but unafraid -- can and should act in order to be heard. As I wrote in "In the Shadow of the Flames" (pp. 58-59), one of the very vicious books in the 1970s, "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" by Arthur R. Butz attempts to refute proven facts of the Holocaust and, indeed, the Holocaust itself.<3> In trying to fill the gap in historical revisionism, the author reconstructs the actual evolution of knowledge in the U.S. with regard to the gas chamber atrocities -- knowledge based, in his opinion, solely on the propaganda of the Nuremberg Trial in 1946, and states that no German documents from Auschwitz mention a gas chamber. He cites a document from the construction firm of Topf and Sons in Erfurt which makes reference to a "Fergasungskeller" (gassing cellar). However, Butz, with his knowledge of engineering, tries to explain this as a "gas generation cellar" for igniting the crematoria used for disposing of those who had died in the camps from presumably natural cuases. To the great delight of German neo-Nazis, a German translation of this book is on the market. On April 30, 1981, I had the singular opportunity of challenging Butz to his face on the "Freeman Reports," a television program carried by Cable News Network (CNN) and broadcast to hundreds of thousands of viewers. I conversed by phone with him from the studios of CNN in Hollywood, California. I pointed out to Butz that his skillfully constructed lies collapse readily in the face of evidence offered by the following primary sources: (a) Testimonies of hundreds of former Auschwitz prisoners, especially "Sonderkommando" survivors, as well as SS officers, taken during the Auschwitz Trial before the court in Frankfurt am Main. (b) Notable memoirs by SS offficers, including those of the Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess, Perry Broad of the SS Political Department, and the diary of Dr. Kremer. (c) Published manuscripts of "Sonderkommando" prisoners<4> which were buried and found on the grounds of the Auschwitz-Birkenau crematoria. (d) About two hundred authentic photographs made by the SS "Erkennungsdienst" (SS photographers) in Auschwitz-Birkenau, recording the arrivals, selections, and marches towards the gas chambers of Jews deported in 1944 from Hungary. (e) Three photos made by the Auschwitz resistance movement showing "Sonderkommando" members at work. (f) Reprints of the authentic detailed ground plans of the four crematoria with eight gas chambers in Birkenau. These plans were smuggled out of the SS Construction Office in Auschwitz and sent to the Swiss Consulate in Prague in 1944.<5> Their authenticity is verified by checks with the gas chamber ruins, now part of the Polish Museum in Oswiecim (Auschwitz), and against American aerial reconnaissance photographs from 1944.<6> I had scarcely finished this list when Butz said, "I don't want to hear any more of this." Pointing my finger at him, I said, "Dr. Butz, you are a liar. Sue me!" He only answered, "I'm hanging up now," and broke off our conversation without responding to the challenge. I feel that such open and direct confrontation is for now the best way to expose these fabricators of "facts." In the same broadcast, I stated that -- except for the "Sonderkommando" -- I am, to my knowledge, the only person to be brought regularly (in 1943 and 1944) into the old Auschwitz crematorium. My presence in the crematorium was kept very secret and I was always threatened with death if I would tell anybody where I have been. I had to fill -- directly from the oversn -- the urns for German inmates (non-Jews) who had died and whose families had paid for the urns. I was brought there by my boss, Unterscharfuehrer Albrecht, then head of the Auschwitz crematorium, from the Registrar's Office where I worked as a typist. Thus I had direct knowledge of the gas chamber. I have been there! NOTES: 1. Kopecky, Lilli, "In the Shadow of the Flames. Six Lectures on the Holocaust," Witness to the Holocaust Project, Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia, 1982. 2. Ibid. Lecture 5, "Holocaust Denials, Neo-Nazism, Anti-Semitism, Radicalism and Terrorism." 3. Butz, Arthur, R. The Hoax of the Twentieth Century. Historical Review Press: Richmond, England, 1975. 0Butz has a Ph.D. in electrical engineering and is a tenured professor at Northwestern University which in the face of many protests over the years has insisted on retaining him on the basis of "academic freedom." 4. Sonderkommando (translated Special Detatchment). Its members had to pull the corpses (after being gassed) out of the gas chambers and bring them into the overs or, in 1944, when there was not enough space in the ovens, burn the corpses on the stakes. 5. Taken from the office by Vera Foltynova, smuggled by the underground into Prague to the non-Jewish wife of Ota Kraus and given to the Swiss Consulate for safekeeping. Source: Erich Kulka. 6. Central Intelligence Agency, "The Holocaust Revisited; A Retrospective Analysis of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Extermination Complex. Prepared by Dino Brugioni and Robert Poirier, February, 1979. Source: Internet on the Holocaust and Genocide - an international information resource exchange towards understanding, intervention and prevention of genocide. Published by the Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide, P.O. Box 10311, Jerusalem, Israel. (Telephone and Fax: 972-2-720424) Issue 48 - April, 1994 -- --------------------------The Old Frog's Almanac------------------------- "However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for Historical Review) ************************************************************************ July 20, 1994 Dear Mr. Vicksell, In reply to your inquiry postmarked July 14, I did have a very brief encounter with CNN. It was around 1981. I have attached some notes I made on Feb. 13, 1986 when wild claims were made as to what I had said. From the program, I remember only the actor Robert Clary. I do not recall ever having heard of Lilli Kopecky in any connection, but it is possible she was also somehow involved in that program. Cooper's 1986 account of what I said is invented out of thin air. I certainly didn't get "about four or five minutes' to have my "say", and I didn't say what he claimed. Kopecky account of 1994 is probably a concoction, too. On internal evidence, one should be suspicious of her, since she reports pointing her finger at me through a telephone connection, a very good trick! The remarks she put in my mouth do not sound like me, and I am sure there was no exploration of the matters of her items (a)-(f) while I was connected; the encounter was much too emotional for that. Best Regards, Arthur R. Butz --------------------------------------------------------------------- Feb. 13, 1986 Today I got a cassette from David McCalden purporting to be the record of a meeting held Jan 19 at the Temple Beth Am in Los Angeles. Mel Mermelstein said he attended a lecture by Elie Wiesel who "cried in front of hundreds and hundreds of teachers" that he had gotten "a letter and a postcard from a professor (Faurisson) who said that the Holocaust is nothing but a hoax and that the chimneys of Auschwitz are only those of the bakery." Rabbi Abraham Cooper, Associate Dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center and co-editor of Response, had a very strange idea of what I said when I was on the telephone with CNN-TV in Atlanta a few years ago. I was connected by telephone only and had not seen the program on TV. My recollection is that I said only a few words and that Robert Clary made such a scene that I had no opportunity to say anything more. My recollection does not resemble Rabbi Cooper's account, which seems to implicitly report that he, Cooper, was present during the production of the program. Speaking first of Robert Clary, Cooper said: when we first met Robert and a number of other survivors were on on a CNN television program out of Atlanta ... (Butz) wasn't on the screen but (the moderator) let him go through his say and after about four or five minutes the moderator in disgust finally interrupted and said "now listen here. You're a professor but you've heard everything these people have said. If you saw the show you saw the materials that the Nazis, the Germans themselves, took. How in the world can deny what happened?" And I think that Butz's answer that day was probably the most honest statement he has ever made in his adult life. He said "O do not believe Auschwitz happened because I'm more comfortable not believing Auschwitz happened. I'm more comfortable believing that Auschwitz did not happpen" ... I think for someone like Butz there's a lot for us to learn from, a, in a sense an off the cuff gut statement like that from that professional bigot. ********************************************************************** July 23, 1994 Dear Mr. Vicksell, Since mailing you my letter of July 20 it occurred to me that the statements Kopecky attributed to me ("I don't want to hear any more of this ... I'm hanging up now") might have been uttered by me in reaction to Clary's rantings, the precise content of which I don't remember. However I could not have reacted that way to points such as her (a) - (f) in the Internet message, regardless of by whom uttered. Best Regards, Arthur R. Butz Article 15875 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!wmcguire From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Subject: Re: The Shape of Things to Come Message-ID: Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die References: <3452ot$3n3@scunix2.harvard.edu> Date: Sun, 4 Sep 1994 17:24:26 GMT Lines: 10 In article <3452ot$3n3@scunix2.harvard.edu>, stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond) wrote: // ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews) And what memorial can exhibit or impart the holocaust of EIGHTY MILLION Chinese whose lives were extinguished by Marxists? What really does this portentous, bloated rhetoric really mean? It's a lot of gas. Article 15906 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!news.delphi.com!usenet From: declan@delphi.com Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Shape of Things to Come Date: Sun, 4 Sep 94 19:56:08 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <3452ot$3n3@scunix2.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos2a.delphi.com X-To: Felix Vagabond Felix Vagabond writes: > Marino on Mass ave in Cambridge, even better a dinner at the Marque rest. Where is this "Marque" place? Marinos is not that good. Besides, why not all go to a nice delicatessen? LM Article 15907 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!news.delphi.com!usenet From: declan@delphi.com Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Shape of Things to Come Date: Sun, 4 Sep 94 20:00:31 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3452ot$3n3@scunix2.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos2a.delphi.com X-To: Wayne McGuire Wayne McGuire writes: >// ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews) > >And what memorial can exhibit or impart the holocaust of EIGHTY >MILLION Chinese whose lives were extinguished by Marxists? > >What really does this portentous, bloated rhetoric really mean? >It's a lot of gas. Agreed. And don't forget the million Irish who died in the Famine, and the blacks who died during slavers trips, and the French who died when the Brits moved them out of Canada, and the millions upon millions of other dead for "nationalist" or "racial causes." The list is endless. Jews have no claim to exclusive victim status, other than as "G-d's chosen," a doubtful and arrogant claim. LM Article 15979 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!world!wmcguire From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Subject: Re: A revisionist defines Message-ID: <56VTk0yNU2x9069yn@world.std.com> Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die References: <40.7175.1168@channel1.com> Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 19:37:57 GMT Lines: 16 In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: //The point I was attempting to make is that the Arabs in Israel are very //much second-class citizens. There are two or three Arabs in the Knesset. //Nuff said. If the anti-revisionists in this newsgroup are denying the fact that Arabs are very much second-class citizens in Israel, they are seriously blowing their credibility. No one who is familiar with the facts about Israel will deny this assertion for a second. This is no place for extended Mideast debate, but I do notice that misinformation about Israel keeps creeping into the posts of a number of anti-revisionists here. This makes me begin to wonder about their overall grasp on truth of any kind. Article 15984 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!world!wmcguire From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Subject: Re: "G-d's Chosen" Message-ID: Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die References: <3452ot$3n3@scunix2.harvard.edu> <34u948$eoh@access3.digex.net> Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 18:22:46 GMT Lines: 65 In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) wrote: // //From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) //>For any ethnic group to claim a special relationship with God is //>to invite a skeptical or hostile response from every other ethnic //>group, and from every person in this world who is trying to //>transcend an ethnocentric approach to life. // //And what major religion *doesn't* claim to be "chosen", if not in //exactly those words. Why focus on Judaism? C'mon Wayne, HAVE YOU BEEN //SAVED?! //C'mon try to be even-handed. Barry, Why don't you go back and read my post carefully--I clearly stated that Christianity, Islam, and Nazism (and I would add Marxism, particularly in its vanguardist aspects) are COUNTER-chosen people ideologies. I already acknowledged the fact that other religions--especially Western monotheistic religions with their roots in Judaism and Jewish messianism--adopt a chosen people stance towards the world. But this chosen people game in the West clearly began with Judaism. Christianity, Islam, and Nazism were all REACTIONS to the chosen people claims of the Jews. Go back and read the New Testament, in case you have forgotten the basic history of ideas. You didn't answer my point that the chosen people ideology is at the root of a good deal and perhaps most of the friction between Jews and the rest of the world. What makes Jewish chosen peopleness especially volatile is the integration of religion, nationalism, tribalism, ethnocentrism, and territorialism in one package. When ethnic and national groups make chosen people claims, and cloak those claims with religious symbolism, they invariably push the hottest primitive buttons of every other ethnic and national group. Primitive egoism. That is what underlies all the vicious conflict among the various equally ridiculous chosen peoples in the world. My religion is better than your religion. My nation is better than your nation. My ethnic group is better than your ethnic group. My tribe is better than your tribe. My territory is more sacred than your territory. God loves me better than he loves you. If some Jews want to adopt a chosen people stance concerning Israel and their ethnicity--and MANY do--fine. But they shouldn't be surprised if they manage to stir up a hornet's nest of unimaginable magnitude. Because every other self-selected chosen people in the world listening to a different divine voice is going to beg to differ and won't hesitate to knock heads. Numerous leading Reform, Reconstructionist, and secular Jews have urged that the chosen people concept be discarded or radically redfined. I happen to agree strongly. If I were a Jew, I would say that what being a chosen person means is to seek after excellence in everything, especially in ethics, but also in all the work one turns one's mind to; and that one becomes a Jew by pursuing this excellence. Something like that. Article 15988 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!world!wmcguire From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Subject: Re: "G-d's Chosen" Message-ID: Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die References: <34u948$eoh@access3.digex.net> <351sr2$70o@access2.digex.net> Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 20:23:01 GMT Lines: 58 In article <351sr2$70o@access2.digex.net>, mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: //Wayne McGuire wrote: //>Christianity, Islam, and even Nazism were essentially //>COUNTER-chosen people ideologies (see George Bernard Shaw on //>Nazism for instance). Typical brain-damaged conflict: Tribe A: //>I'm the chosen people. Tribe B: No *I'M* the chosen people. // // Excuse me? "Anyone not believing in Christ is going to Hell" (talking //about doubtful and arrogant claims) is a COUNTER-chosen people ideology? Absolutely. Christianity is basically a Jewish cult which is at war with its parent Jewish cult, Judaism, over ideology and claims regarding chosenness. The Christians sought to SUPPLANT the Jews as the chosen people. Really, this is Religion 101--you don't know this? Reread the New Testament, and especially the writings of Paul, the founder of Christianity. Paul is engaged in an angry repudiation of the parent cult, particularly regarding claims of chosenness. One sees a similar process in Islam and in its attitudes towards Judaism. This is really the fastest gun in the West syndrome: if you claim to be the chosen people, every other high-testosterone group in the world will immediately challenge you and try to put you under. Surely you are aware that there has been tremendous debate in the Jewish world for the last hundred years or more about the negative side of the chosen people claim? Many of the brightest Jewish minds want to do away with this ideology altogether. One you start playing the chosen people game, you will invariably find yourself in deep shit. There is no redder red flag than waving claims about chosenness. What's really revealing about the Old Testament rendition of the claim is that it is inextricably entwined with territorial conquest and genocide: the chosen people, by the very fact of their chosenness, earned the divine right to conquer territory and annihilate their enemies, including women and children. Claims about chosenness and naked aggression always seem to travel side by side. What does all this have to do with the Holocaust? A Holocaust cult has emerged which claims explicitly or implicitly that the murder of 6 million Jews was a crime on a scale and of a severity that is unmatched by any other crime in world history. Such an absurd assertion has its roots in a chosen people ideology which believes that all of world history revolves around the drama and travails of only one group of people. The Holocaust cult--as opposed to the Holocaust--certainly merits a good deal skeptical probing and deconstruction. Jason Epstein was trying to get at this point, I believe, in his article on Schindler's List in the New York Review of Books. If I get time, I will post the entire article. Meanwhile, you might want to look it up--it appeared a few months ago. Article 15996 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!waikato!comp.vuw.ac.nz!newshost.wcc.govt.nz!QUIRKE_A@ix.wcc.govt.nz From: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Vicksell and the Auschwitz Brothel Date: 13 Sep 1994 22:49:23 GMT Organization: Wellington City Council, Public Access Lines: 24 Message-ID: <355a9j$pmo@golem.wcc.govt.nz> References: , Reply-To: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz NNTP-Posting-Host: ix.wcc.govt.nz codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes: >I have referred the brothel matter to one of my high-powered revisionist >friends, in hopes that he can come up with some kind of argument that >will convince you guys that the brothel was not just for the SS and the >Kapos. You were asked on what standard of proof you required in order to believe a brothel existed in the camp. You were then asked why you did not believe in gas chambers in the camp, by any objective standard far better documented than any brothel. Your reply: "I'll have to get someone else to explain it for me". In other words, you have *no* standard of proof. You only have stories fed to you by others, you are not intelligent or rational enough to evaluate them, and you accept or reject them based on a predetermined worldview which may or may not have any basis in reality. - Tony Q. --- Tony Quirke, Wellington, New Zealand (email for phone no) "Now I lay me down to sleep / I hear the sirens in the street. All my dreams are made of chrome / I cannot find my way back home" Article 16012 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!sun!oucsace!dspiegel From: dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel) Subject: Re: A revisionist defines Message-ID: Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens References: <56VTk0yNU2x9069yn@world.std.com> Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 23:59:06 GMT Lines: 30 In article <56VTk0yNU2x9069yn@world.std.com> wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes: >In article , >codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > >//The point I was attempting to make is that the Arabs in Israel are very >//much second-class citizens. There are two or three Arabs in the Knesset. >//Nuff said. > >If the anti-revisionists in this newsgroup are denying the fact >that Arabs are very much second-class citizens in Israel, they >are seriously blowing their credibility. No one who is familiar with >the facts about Israel will deny this assertion for a second. > >This is no place for extended Mideast debate, but I do notice >that misinformation about Israel keeps creeping into the posts of >a number of anti-revisionists here. This makes me begin to wonder >about their overall grasp on truth of any kind. Please provide examples. What is this misinformation? This assertion needs backing up. Who is doing this? Why would this make you wonder about the truth, when it is not presented using assertions, but rather by citing specific *evidence*? To accuse a group of spreading misinformation is a serious matter. Please back it up. -DS I speak for myself only. No unsolicited e-mail, please. I'll read your flames with everyone else. Please do not use my name in any subject headers. Article 16020 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.intercon.com!news1.digex.net!access.digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: "G-d's Chosen" Date: 14 Sep 1994 00:22:44 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 43 Message-ID: <355tqk$ee0@access2.digex.net> References: <351sr2$70o@access2.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net In article , Wayne McGuire wrote: >In article <351sr2$70o@access2.digex.net>, >mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: > >//Wayne McGuire wrote: > >//>Christianity, Islam, and even Nazism were essentially >//>COUNTER-chosen people ideologies (see George Bernard Shaw on >//>Nazism for instance). Typical brain-damaged conflict: Tribe A: >//>I'm the chosen people. Tribe B: No *I'M* the chosen people. >// >// Excuse me? "Anyone not believing in Christ is going to Hell" (talking >//about doubtful and arrogant claims) is a COUNTER-chosen people ideology? > >Absolutely. Christianity is basically a Jewish cult which is at >war with its parent Jewish cult, Judaism, over ideology and >claims regarding chosenness. The Christians sought to SUPPLANT >the Jews as the chosen people. Then I wouldn't call it a COUNTER-chosen people ideology. To me the phrase means rejecting the *idea* of a chosen people entirely. Better to call it a counter-Jewish ideology if you mean counter-one-specific-chosen people. >Reread the New Testament, and especially the >writings of Paul, the founder of Christianity. Paul is engaged in >an angry repudiation of the parent cult, particularly regarding >claims of chosenness. You mean like the following: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of G-d for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Greek." (The Letter of Paul to the Romans, 1:16, RSV) Yup, sure looks like an angry repudiation of the chosenness of the Jews to me. -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 16023 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: "G-d's Chosen" In-Reply-To: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Tue, 13 Sep 1994 18:22:46 GMT Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: <3452ot$3n3@scunix2.harvard.edu> <34u948$eoh@access3.digex.net> Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 05:18:50 GMT Lines: 90 From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) >But this chosen people game in the West clearly began with >Judaism. If we are to use any sort of continuous time-line you could easily argue that all of Western Civilization began with Judaism. How many other groups have had so much influence on Western Civ continuously since at least 1300BC? Anyhow, this is a silly point to make, obviously a lot of people in the west, the vast majority even, felt quite comfortable picking and choosing what they liked out of older traditions. >Christianity, Islam, and Nazism were all REACTIONS to >the chosen people claims of the Jews. Go back and read the New >Testament, in case you have forgotten the basic history of ideas. I suspect I've read more of this literature than you have, including early Christian Church scripture. It's a hobby of mine. I don't see any basis for your claiming that Christianity was some sort of reaction to the "chosen people" idea. I'm not even sure it was all that prevelant as a concept until fairly recently (in these time lines fairly recently might be the last 500-1000 years.) It's a phrase, Wayne. What exactly do you believe "The Chosen People" means that's so different from "America First" or "Nomine patria, et fils, et spirituo sancto..." or a zillion other tag lines on this earth that say: WE GOT IT RIGHT! (?) >You didn't answer my point that the chosen people ideology is at >the root of a good deal and perhaps most of the friction between >Jews and the rest of the world. Of course I did, you didn't read carefully. What difference is there between the Jews saying they believe they are God's chosen people (based on their scriptures which, plus or minus how much you believe in those scriptures at all, does seem to be there, personally I don't subscribe to literal readings) or Christians asserting that you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven except through acceptance of Jesus Christ? Well, one difference is that judaism isn't a proselytizing religion, so the intention of such a phrase is quite different, they're not advertising for converts. >My nation is better >than your nation. My ethnic group is better than your ethnic >group. My tribe is better than your tribe. My territory is more >sacred than your territory. God loves me better than he loves >you. Yeah, ok, it goes on all over the world and among virtually ever people on earth. So why did you decide to ask the Jews to clean up their act first? Don't you have your own house to clean? You still don't get it. All you're saying is that Jews, just like most every other group on this planet, like to say it's pretty good to be one of them. You've decided that this is a problem because when someone else does that also there could be friction. And you've decided therefore this friction could be reduced if the Jews would just give it up (and let everyone else do it in peace I suppose.) What's wrong with this picture? I'm not defending the concept, I'm just wondering out loud why you've chosen the Jews, of all the hundreds if not thousands of groups (ethnic, religious and otherwise) to clean up their act first? Apparently in your philosophy the Jews truly are the Chosen People, you've chosen them, from among everyone else on this planet, to scold for being ethnically cohesive. What a blessing! So what divinely egoless group do you identify yourself with? -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 16024 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!ddsw1!golux.pr.mcs.net!user From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World and not a mere Device.) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: A revisionist defines Followup-To: alt.revisionism Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 00:37:12 -0600 Organization: MCSNet Services Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <40.7175.1168@channel1.com> <56VTk0yNU2x9069yn@world.std.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net In article <56VTk0yNU2x9069yn@world.std.com>, wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote: > In article , > codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > > //The point I was attempting to make is that the Arabs in Israel are very > //much second-class citizens. There are two or three Arabs in the Knesset. > //Nuff said. > > If the anti-revisionists in this newsgroup are denying the fact > that Arabs are very much second-class citizens in Israel, they > are seriously blowing their credibility. No one who is familiar with > the facts about Israel will deny this assertion for a second. Perhaps, just on this tiny point (i.e., the contention that "Arabs are second-class citizens in Israel") it would be helpful if you would define the terms. What is meant, specifically, by "second-class citizen," and what is the evidence that Arabs meet the criteria? I am not personally familiar with "the facts about Israel" on this point, so I would appreciate an answer to these questions. Again: 1. What are the criteria for being a "second-class citizen"? 2. How do the Arabs in Israel meet these criteria? Thanks. Article 16025 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: "G-d's Chosen" In-Reply-To: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Tue, 13 Sep 1994 20:23:01 GMT Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: <34u948$eoh@access3.digex.net> <351sr2$70o@access2.digex.net> Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 05:33:18 GMT Lines: 93 From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) >Absolutely. Christianity is basically a Jewish cult which is at >war with its parent Jewish cult, Judaism, over ideology and >claims regarding chosenness. Oh come now, not too long ago the Christian Church would've burned you at the stake for the heresy of Manicheanism for suggesting this. Do you really view the world in this simplistic good-guy / bad-guy way? These two people are a little different so therefore one has to win, one must be good the other bad? Even the Pope gave that up a while ago. >Really, this is Religion 101--you >don't know this? Reread the New Testament, and especially the >writings of Paul, the founder of Christianity. Paul is engaged in >an angry repudiation of the parent cult, particularly regarding >claims of chosenness. Gee, I guess that's why Jesus' brother, the first Bishop (or the first Bishop outside of Rome, first Bishop of Jerusalem if memory serves me, I suppose Peter was the first Bishop), remained an Orthodox Jew all his life (until he was martyred.) See, for example, Eusubius. I think you're the one that needs to review what you think you know. Yes, Paul et al are trying to reform Judaism and basically lay claim to Judaism. It's all very interesting. And many Church of England clergy, post Reformation, will tell you they ARE the Catholic Church and that as far as they are concerned that Rome/Vatican stuff has been dissolved. I dunno, lah-dee-dah. >This is really the fastest gun in the West syndrome: if you claim >to be the chosen people, every other high-testosterone group in >the world will immediately challenge you and try to put you >under. And vice versa. >Surely you are aware that there has been tremendous debate in the >Jewish world for the last hundred years or more about the >negative side of the chosen people claim? Many of the brightest >Jewish minds want to do away with this ideology altogether. A fine idea. So what is your group doing to reduce this kind of friction? Other than wagging their fingers at Jews? >What's really revealing about the Old Testament rendition of the >claim is that it is inextricably entwined with territorial >conquest and genocide: the chosen people, by the very fact of >their chosenness, earned the divine right to conquer territory >and annihilate their enemies, including women and children. >Claims about chosenness and naked aggression always seem to >travel side by side. Ahem, unlike some other religions we could mention. And in much more recent memory. What you're doing here, you realize, is using the Old Testament as historical fact source. That's an interesting thing to do on a group where people are demanding PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of the Holocaust. >What does all this have to do with the Holocaust? A Holocaust >cult has emerged which claims explicitly or implicitly that the >murder of 6 million Jews was a crime on a scale and of a severity >that is unmatched by any other crime in world history. Unmatched? References, please? I think most people who hear this, and who know something about the subject, immediately assume that folks throw these superlatives in because it sounds so good to their argument. That's all. But when your argument is basically based upon this superlative, rather than the event in general, and you're not ready to back up that superlative, then you have no argument. Period. So how exactly does a bunch of Jews sitting around a Passover Seder saying to each other ``and He delivered us because WE were God's Chosen'' affect you? -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 16033 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!news.umass.edu!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Vicksell and the Auschwitz Brothel Date: 14 Sep 1994 06:24:45 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3564vd$iv3@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Vicksell does not seem to be able to understand a simple question. Why does he accept the testimonies about the brothel, while rejecting each and every testimony about mass murder in the camp? There are certainly more people who testified about mass murder than about the brothel. So? Any answer? Certainly, no one is going to take seriously someone who just arbitrarily accept some testimonies while rejecting many more testimonies. This is ridiculous. -Danny Keren. Article 16036 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!news.ossi.com!news.fujitsu.com!amdahl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Re the Whiteway gas chamber: Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 06:01:10 GMT Lines: 43 Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote: : bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS) wrote: : > Re the Whiteway gas chamber being "poorly documented": poorly documented : > yes, but prominently promoted by the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum. Why? : "Prominently promoted." : It's mentioned once in one book by Berenbaum, the director of that museum. : It was pretty short, as I recall. Starts at the bottom of page 6 and goes : to the bottom of page 7, and most of page 7 is taken up by a photo or : something (I don't have the book here but I think that's right). : That book is a glossy-paper coffee-table fund-raising book. It's set in : fairly large type. It's mostly pictures. It's clearly one of those things : meant to raise public consciousness but not really to get in-depth about : much in particular. : "Prominently promoted." One page in one book is "prominently promoted." Whiteway's story is the very first extended quotation in the book, on page one of chapter one, which gives in prominence, in my book. Right after it we have: The journalist Fred Friendly describes Malthausen, the last of the camps liberated by the Americans, to his mother. He tried to make it real for her. 'This was no movie, no printed page,' he wrote. 'Your son saw this with his own eyes and in doing this aged ten years.' 'I saw a shower room where 150 prisoners at a time were disrobed and ordered in for a shower which never gushed forth from the sprinkers because the chemical was gas. When they ran out of gas, they merely sucked the air out of the room.' " This gives you some idea of the standards of historical accuracy hewed to by Berenbaum. Interestingly, he uses a similar approach in his museum; in the elevator on the way up to the fourth floor, at the start of the tour, you hear the hushed voice of an American G.I. recounting the horrors he saw on entering a German concentration camp. Ross Vicksell Article 16037 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!news.ossi.com!news.fujitsu.com!amdahl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: David Irving Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <34tuok$4o4@hebron.connected.com> Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 06:10:16 GMT Lines: 5 David Irving is coming to the U.S. for a speaking tour soon. I'll give you more dope about the wheres and whens when I find out more about it myself. Ross Vicksell Article 16038 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!UB.com!pacbell.com!amdahl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: "Polish Historical Society" Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <1994Sep03.050330.2051@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <352ei7$stf@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu> Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 07:02:24 GMT Lines: 49 spok+@cs.cmu.edu (John Ockerbloom) writes: >In article , >Greg Raven wrote: >>In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross >>Vicksell) wrote: >> >>> Ken Mcvay (kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca) wrote: >>> (text deleted) >>> Irene Zdziarski >>> Stamford, Conn, Dec. 23, 1993 >>> >>> The writer is chairwoman, holocaust Committee, Polish Historical Society. >> >>I'm sure that what Mcvay meant to say is that "Irene Zdziarski" is put >>forward as the chairwoman of the Holocaust Committee of the PHS, as he >>certainly must know that this is a pseudonym. It's unfortunate but true that many revisionists are still in the closet. They have jobs, and families to support. >Er, despite the way you've got it presented here, the attribution you >quoted was provided by Vicksell, not McVay. (I'm willing to assume Actually, the attribution is the NYT's, not mine. Check it if you don't believe me: 1/1/94. >this was an honest confusion in reading Vicksell's article, which >quoted McVay's signature at the end even though there was no text of >his in the vicinity.) But I'm curious: since you seem to know, who is >"Irene Zdziarski" a pseudonym for? >Of course, don't let this distract you from trying to explain how the >Posen speech, which mentions more than once that the Jews are to be My friend Jack Wikoff is working on a piece about the Posen speech, which will presumably post when he hooks up to the net within the next couple of weeks. >exterminated, didn't really mean it. Or what standards you require for >deciding the trurth of historical events (like, say, the existence of >World War II.) Or... well, there are a bunch of unanswered questions pending, >actually, but if you've got a spare minute or two, I'd also find the >pseudonym question interesting. (Or, if anyone else knows, post away!) >John Ockerbloom >-- >========================================================================== >ockerbloom@cs.cmu.edu CMU School of Computer Science, Pittsburgh PA 15213 Article 16041 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: Re the Whiteway gas chamber: In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Wed, 14 Sep 1994 06:01:10 GMT Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 08:43:32 GMT Lines: 64 Did these people say these things or not? You seem to be saying that what you want is proof that what they SAID was true. That's nice, but perhaps a little irrelevant to your point. If these people said what they said, and it was transcribed and represented correctly, that IS historical accuracy. It was what these people said. When that radio announcer who was watching the Hindenburg disaster said it was the most horrible thing he ever saw do we immediately wish to probe his life to find out if it really was the most horrible thing he ever saw? Or do we find it interesting enough to listen to him say that, gives us some feeling for what went on at the tragedy. Maybe someone said they saw ``the air sucked out of the room''. Maybe it's true, or maybe they don't really know what they saw or how it happened. But what comes through is that they said there was a room, a lot of people went into it and somehow they left dead. Even if he was merely speculating at how they died does that really lessen what he's really saying? I don't think so. I think the point comes through loud and clear. I think you guys are re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. You might be able to prove that this guy didn't see air being sucked out of the room, it seems unlikely, but that doesn't bring you one nanometer closer to showing that millions of people weren't murdered. You've also got to deal with how in the world someone got all these thousands of witnesses to lie, and so consistently. From Jews and Gypsies and Nazi soldiers in the death camps to Allied troops. What could have possibly prompted all these people to lie so consistently? That's perhaps something worthwhile chewing on. As a friend used to say: Failure to understand reality is never reality's fault. From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) >The journalist Fred Friendly describes Malthausen, the last of the camps >liberated by the Americans, to his mother. He tried to make it real for >her. 'This was no movie, no printed page,' he wrote. 'Your son saw this >with his own eyes and in doing this aged ten years.' > >'I saw a shower room where 150 prisoners at a time were disrobed and >ordered in for a shower which never gushed forth from the sprinkers >because the chemical was gas. When they ran out of gas, they merely >sucked the air out of the room.' " > >This gives you some idea of the standards of historical accuracy hewed to >by Berenbaum. > >Interestingly, he uses a similar approach in his museum; in the elevator >on the way up to the fourth floor, at the start of the tour, you hear the >hushed voice of an American G.I. recounting the horrors he saw on entering >a German concentration camp. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 16042 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.ACO.net!fuw.edu.pl!news.nask.org.pl!ci.pwr.wroc.pl!ci.pwr.wroc.pl!not-for-mail From: pankiewicz@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl (Jerzy Pankiewicz) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: "Polish Historical Society" Date: 14 Sep 1994 11:01:18 +0200 Organization: Technical Univeristy of Wroclaw Lines: 9 Message-ID: <356e4u$k7t@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl> References: <1994Sep03.050330.2051@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote: : The word "hoocaust" was not capitalized in its earliest references uses : in reference to World War II, even in Jewish sources. Indeed, while : mainstream publicatiobs reported, for instance, the two million Jews had ??????????? : been "exterminated in Treblinka death house" with "heat and steam" (New : York Times, Aug. 8, 1943), they did not use the word holocaust. Article 16060 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!metro.atlanta.com!mhv.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!golux.pr.mcs.net!user From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: David Irving Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 22:00:44 -0600 Organization: MCSNet Services Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <34tuok$4o4@hebron.connected.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > David Irving is coming to the U.S. for a speaking tour soon. I'll give > you more dope about the wheres and whens when I find out more about it > myself. It's really too easy. I shouldn't.... Oh what the hell. Ross, you have an amazing knack for choosing just the right words. -- D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup. golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms. -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_ Article 16066 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!UB.com!pacbell.com!amdahl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: "Polish Historical Society" Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <1994Sep03.050330.2051@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 01:56:20 GMT Lines: 34 Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote: : codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: : > My friend Jack Wikoff is working on a piece about the Posen speech, which : > will presumably post when he hooks up to the net within the next couple : > of weeks. : Hope it'll be better than the Wikoff reply you posted for him a few months : ago. You know, the one where he was taken to task for actually getting : _aerial photos_ of a camp to prove that Goeth couldn't have shot inmates : from his villa balcony, without taking the trouble to simply read the book : in the first place and learn that, at the time, he was taking the shots : from his temporary villa on the other side of the camp? : And wasn't that the same Wikoff who, upon having his disinformation attempt : exposed, demanded that we provide proof that Goeth _could_ have taken the : shots from the temporary villa, as if the burden of proof were on us not : him? A charming character, Wikoff. Look forward to his explanation of : "auszurotten - sprich also, umzubringen," since you, Ross, respond with : silence when confronted with that quote. As does Raven, apparently. : -- : Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy : "You seem to be selectively defining words to suit yourself, and then : demanding that I accept your definitions." - Greg Raven, 8/26/94 : "Do you understand that a testimony is not evidence?" - Greg Raven, 9/1/94 w.r.t. Goeth, our leading Goeth expert, John Ball, will be joining out little discussion group soon. He'll have some interesting things to point out, e.g. that the transcript of Goeth's trial in Poland makes no mention of a "temporary" villa." Eoss Vicksell Article 16067 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!chpc.utexas.edu!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!husc-news.harvard.edu!husc.harvard.edu!fas!stara Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Shape of Things to Come Message-ID: <3510vn$e8u@scunix2.harvard.edu> From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond) Date: 12 Sep 1994 07:45:59 GMT References: <3452ot$3n3@scunix2.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts NNTP-Posting-Host: fas.harvard.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 63 Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote: : The only people I know who make a "living" off revisionism are Bradley : Smith, Ernst Zuendel, and the people at the IHR. None of the rest of us : revisionists are in the slightest danger of losing our amateur standing. Who are the rest of you? !!!!! : On the other hand, there are thousands of people making a living off the : Holocaust affirmation business, notably the staffs of the Holocaust : museums and memorials around the world. How pathetic can you get? The people at the Museum are not all hirelings, some do, but a lot of them are volunteers. I personaly have intense animosity toward Zuendel and I wish he would disappear. : : Please ask : : yourself; Why doesn't Brad Smith call for open debate on these topics? : Bradley has made this abundantly clear. The Holocaust Story is just about : the only topic under the sun you can't discuss openly without suffering : major persecution, and I mean MAJOR: loss of job, social ostracism, etc. Mr.Smith his vehement antisemitic isn't the only motive, but the money and hatred he spews everywhere. He is a sick old fella who has made it his business to spread anti-semitism. : You can talk all day about whether Mao killed X million Chinese, or : whether the Turks slaughtered the Armenians, or whether the British : massacred whoever and nobody will bother you. Yeh Ross I have been watching you for some time and haven't heard a thing from you about them Turks or Chinese killings! Did you ever stop and think about them. Yeh they are not Jews and therefore they can be semitics! Surely things would have been different if things were on the other side and you were the Jew and we have been the Nazis.! Maybe you would feel differently and you might understand how it feels when revisionist digging and desecrating the dead ones and adding more injury into the survivors. ============================================================================== ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews) VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS. ============================================================================== Article 16069 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!UB.com!pacbell.com!amdahl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Re the Whiteway gas chamber: Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 02:20:48 GMT Lines: 72 Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote: : Did these people say these things or not? : You seem to be saying that what you want is proof that what they SAID : was true. That's nice, but perhaps a little irrelevant to your point. : If these people said what they said, and it was transcribed and : represented correctly, that IS historical accuracy. It was what these : people said. : When that radio announcer who was watching the Hindenburg disaster : said it was the most horrible thing he ever saw do we immediately wish : to probe his life to find out if it really was the most horrible thing : he ever saw? Or do we find it interesting enough to listen to him say : that, gives us some feeling for what went on at the tragedy. : Maybe someone said they saw ``the air sucked out of the room''. Maybe : it's true, or maybe they don't really know what they saw or how it : happened. But what comes through is that they said there was a room, a : lot of people went into it and somehow they left dead. Even if he was : merely speculating at how they died does that really lessen what he's : really saying? I don't think so. I think the point comes through loud : and clear. : I think you guys are re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. You : might be able to prove that this guy didn't see air being sucked out : of the room, it seems unlikely, but that doesn't bring you one : nanometer closer to showing that millions of people weren't murdered. : You've also got to deal with how in the world someone got all these : thousands of witnesses to lie, and so consistently. From Jews and : Gypsies and Nazi soldiers in the death camps to Allied troops. What : could have possibly prompted all these people to lie so consistently? : That's perhaps something worthwhile chewing on. As a friend used to : say: : Failure to understand reality is never reality's fault. : From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) : >The journalist Fred Friendly describes Malthausen, the last of the camps : >liberated by the Americans, to his mother. He tried to make it real for : >her. 'This was no movie, no printed page,' he wrote. 'Your son saw this : >with his own eyes and in doing this aged ten years.' : > : >'I saw a shower room where 150 prisoners at a time were disrobed and : >ordered in for a shower which never gushed forth from the sprinkers : >because the chemical was gas. When they ran out of gas, they merely : >sucked the air out of the room.' " : > : >This gives you some idea of the standards of historical accuracy hewed to : >by Berenbaum. : > : >Interestingly, he uses a similar approach in his museum; in the elevator : >on the way up to the fourth floor, at the start of the tour, you hear the : >hushed voice of an American G.I. recounting the horrors he saw on entering : >a German concentration camp. : -- : -Barry Shein : Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs : Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD My quarrel is not with Fred Friendly but with Michael Berenbaum, who KNOWS Friendly's description of the shower room at Malthausen is inaccurate, but includes it in his book anyway. Ross Vicksell Article 16075 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-04.dialip.mich.net!user From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: "Polish Historical Society" Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 12:25:07 -0400 Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <1994Sep03.050330.2051@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <352ei7$stf@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-04.dialip.mich.net codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > My friend Jack Wikoff is working on a piece about the Posen speech, which > will presumably post when he hooks up to the net within the next couple > of weeks. Hope it'll be better than the Wikoff reply you posted for him a few months ago. You know, the one where he was taken to task for actually getting _aerial photos_ of a camp to prove that Goeth couldn't have shot inmates from his villa balcony, without taking the trouble to simply read the book in the first place and learn that, at the time, he was taking the shots from his temporary villa on the other side of the camp? And wasn't that the same Wikoff who, upon having his disinformation attempt exposed, demanded that we provide proof that Goeth _could_ have taken the shots from the temporary villa, as if the burden of proof were on us not him? A charming character, Wikoff. Look forward to his explanation of "auszurotten - sprich also, umzubringen," since you, Ross, respond with silence when confronted with that quote. As does Raven, apparently. -- Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy "You seem to be selectively defining words to suit yourself, and then demanding that I accept your definitions." - Greg Raven, 8/26/94 "Do you understand that a testimony is not evidence?" - Greg Raven, 9/1/94 Article 16087 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!halsoft.com!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: David Irving Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <34tuok$4o4@hebron.connected.com> <356q40$nrb@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 02:04:02 GMT Lines: 12 Jerzy Pankiewicz (pankiewicz@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl) wrote: : Has ever the great historian David Irving visited Auschwitz? What's to see? : I don't remember the idiot here. I think that he wouldn't : dare. : Jerzy Pankiewicz Article 16088 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!news.ossi.com!news.fujitsu.com!amdahl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Remembering the Holocaust and Bosnia Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <34tgpq$6v@nntp2.Stanford.EDU> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 06:04:33 GMT Lines: 4 So what IS Students Against GEnocide doing to help the Bosnians? Are you lohbying to get the arms embargo lifted? Ross Vicksell Article 16100 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!fonorola!mitel!not-for-mail From: freedman@software.mitel.com (Gordon Freedman) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Vicksell and the Auschwitz Brothel (was: Re: Apology to Ro Date: 15 Sep 1994 10:39:17 -0400 Organization: Mitel Corporation Lines: 19 Message-ID: <359mal$qaf@picard.mitel.com> References: <34tsba$72o@golem.wcc.govt.nz> <34vtek$4l3@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: picard.mitel.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote: : Not your typical extermination camp. : Ross Vicksell Unfortunately Ross, I do not have a typical extermination camp and - Danny can correct me if I'm wrong - neither does Danny. Perhaps as an "expert," you can take the time to educate me on the typical extermination camp and why Auschwitz can not be so categorized. Gordon - My opinions. Not theirs. Article 16126 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!gumby!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-05.dialip.mich.net!user From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: "Polish Historical Society" Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 17:59:22 -0400 Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <1994Sep03.050330.2051@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-05.dialip.mich.net codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > w.r.t. Goeth, our leading Goeth expert, John Ball, will be joining out > little discussion group soon. He'll have some interesting things to > point out, e.g. that the transcript of Goeth's trial in Poland makes no > mention of a "temporary" villa." In other words, the same material that you posted for Ball and Wikoff in late July. Ho hum. Tell both of them I'd like to hear their reaction to Himmler's Poznan speeches. As I would yours. That's the topic of the hour; why not address it? Ross, how come you, the regional director for the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust emailed me expressly to say that you didn't want to get into the "debate" about the Poznan speeches? Hm, a committee for debate whose members don't want to debate. Odd! Thought about changing the name to Committee for Ostensible Debate On the Holocaust? You could keep the acronym... -- Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy "You seem to be selectively defining words to suit yourself, and then demanding that I accept your definitions." - Greg Raven, 8/26/94 "Do you understand that a testimony is not evidence?" - Greg Raven, 9/1/94 Article 16140 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!Germany.EU.net!news.dfn.de!kfk.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!stepsun.uni-kl.de!uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de!informatik.uni-kl.de!stschulz From: stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz) Subject: Re: Remembering the Holocaust and Bosnia Message-ID: <1994Sep16.005745.14014@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de> Sender: news@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de (Unix-News-System) Nntp-Posting-Host: isis.informatik.uni-kl.de Organization: University of Kaiserslautern, Germany References: <34tgpq$6v@nntp2.Stanford.EDU> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 00:57:45 GMT Lines: 29 In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes: |> So what IS Students Against GEnocide doing to help the Bosnians? |> Are you lohbying to get the arms embargo lifted? |> I don't know anything about "Students Against Genocide", but I am amazed at the simple solutions both Ross and Wayne can offer - Ross seems to support the lifting of the arms embargo and Wayne argues for a military intervention (how he can argue this and still call himself _libertarian_ is beyond me, unless libertarian has become a cover name for all vaguely right-wing persons claiming to be "the real patriots"). Can you tell why this would solve the problem in Bosnia without much more bloodshed than currently occurs? _I_ simply don't _know_ a workable way that, with a reasonable amount of security, would end this conflict. I therefore restrict myself to talk and persuasion...as I do on this list and a different topic. I do indeed think that keeping alive memories of the past are one of the best ways to avoid future mistakes... Stephan -------------------------- It can be done! --------------------------------- Please email me as stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Article 16142 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: The Trial of Amon Goeth Date: 15 Sep 1994 21:48:08 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 21 Message-ID: <35atgo$jme@access3.digex.net> References: <1994Sep03.050330.2051@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net In article , Ross Vicksell wrote: >w.r.t. Goeth, our leading Goeth expert, John Ball, will be joining out >little discussion group soon. He'll have some interesting things to >point out, e.g. that the transcript of Goeth's trial in Poland makes no >mention of a "temporary" villa." Goeth was tried for "crimes against humanity." There would of course be rather less reason mention the temporary villa since he was not being tried for the specific crime of the quarry shooting. I'm sure when Ball arrives he'll tell us on what page of Goeth's trial transcript is the quarry shooting is mentioned, and how much focus is placed on it. Oh, Ross? Do tell him we expect in-context quotes with precise bibliographic references, including page numbers. Greg Raven has amply demonstrated how misleading paraphrases can be. -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 16148 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.delphi.com!usenet From: charles11@delphi.com Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Dinner in Cambridge Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 22:39:39 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com X-To: Ross Vicksell Ross Vicksell writes: >I'm reiterating the proposal. Lets us alt.revisionism fans get together >at some easily accessible restaurant in Cambridge or Boston for an evening >of food and conversation. If you're interested, holler. Count me in. I live inSharon and as a victim of the Nazis I am more than interested. Article 16151 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!golux.pr.mcs.net!user From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Re the Whiteway gas chamber: Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 23:10:00 -0600 Organization: MCSNet Services Lines: 60 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote: > > : Did these people say these things or not? > > : You seem to be saying that what you want is proof that what they SAID > : was true. That's nice, but perhaps a little irrelevant to your point. > > : If these people said what they said, and it was transcribed and > : represented correctly, that IS historical accuracy. It was what these > : people said. [and then quoting:] > : From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) > : >The journalist Fred Friendly describes Malthausen, the last of the camps > : >liberated by the Americans, to his mother. He tried to make it real for > : >her. 'This was no movie, no printed page,' he wrote. 'Your son saw this > : >with his own eyes and in doing this aged ten years.' > : > > : >'I saw a shower room where 150 prisoners at a time were disrobed and > : >ordered in for a shower which never gushed forth from the sprinkers > : >because the chemical was gas. When they ran out of gas, they merely > : >sucked the air out of the room.' " > : > > : >This gives you some idea of the standards of historical accuracy hewed to > : >by Berenbaum. > My quarrel is not with Fred Friendly but with Michael Berenbaum, who > KNOWS Friendly's description of the shower room at Malthausen is > inaccurate, but includes it in his book anyway. Historical accuracy, in the context of the book in question, revolves entirely around what people said they saw. Not what they actually saw, not what was actually there, but what they said they saw, what they said they felt. Fred Friendly wrote to his mother, AFTER the liberation of the camp. He was describing the room he saw, but it was clear that at that time, the room would no longer have been in use. Who knows where he got his information or impression of what went on in the room. Certainly he doesn't claim to have seen it happening. Berenbaum's reasons for including Friendly's story in the book are unknown. To you, it shows a disregard for historical accuracy; I haven't seen the book itself, so I don't know if the post-liberation testimonies are presented as "proving" the Nazi atrocities or merely to show the reactions of those who came after to pick up the pieces. However, since no historian relies on Friendly's story to describe or interpret the Holocaust, then its inclusion in what is, from all reports, a souvenir coffee-table book, is pretty insignificant. Ross, why haven't you addressed the Himmler speech at Poznan? There is apparently some contention that this speech is inauthentic, or doesn't mean what it says, or some such. Why don't you discuss that instead of Fred Friendly? -- D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup. golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms. -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_ Article 16193 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!pacbell.com!amdahl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3580u4$n2q@search01.news.aol.com> <3585aq$ofs@search01.news.aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:30:25 GMT Lines: 9 If you had lost 20 pounds in a month-long incarceration in a German prison, would you be eager to go back for more? (And Fred was skinny to start out with.) The odds on his getting jugged again if he were to go back to Germany are quite high. Hey, maybe the OSI could track him down. Since they're running out of "Nazis" they should be thinking about making the switch to "neo-Nazis." Ross Article 16195 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!news1.digex.net!access.digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: "G-d's Chosen" Date: 12 Sep 1994 11:41:22 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 43 Message-ID: <351sr2$70o@access2.digex.net> References: <34u948$eoh@access3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net In article , Wayne McGuire wrote: >Christianity, Islam, and even Nazism were essentially >COUNTER-chosen people ideologies (see George Bernard Shaw on >Nazism for instance). Typical brain-damaged conflict: Tribe A: >I'm the chosen people. Tribe B: No *I'M* the chosen people. Excuse me? "Anyone not believing in Christ is going to Hell" (talking about doubtful and arrogant claims) is a COUNTER-chosen people ideology? "Aryans are the master race" is not a non-theological version of a chosen people ideology? >Your suggestion that the poster turn to soc.culture.jewish for an >understanding of "the chosen people" is perhaps unwise: I have >repeatedly seen the most vile interpretation of that phrase >presented in that conference with the utmost religious sincerity >by Orthodox Jews who claimed that their chosenness gave them a >divine right to take supposed Jewish Holy Land from the >Palestinians. Misinterpretation of scripture is hardly confined to Jews. In this case, though, while I do not have the particulars on the posts you talk about, I think the justification proceeds from a different theological basis. Still for the purposes of this group, all of this is really neither here nor there. Even the question of whether the Holocaust was unique in some sense is more of a philosophical argument than an historical one, since there's *something* unique you could point to in every historical event. It's interesting, to be sure, but I'm not really convinced this is the proper newsgroup for the discussion. As far as the question of whether someone has a motive for distorting objective history, I think you should identify patterns of distortion on the part of a person before impugning the integrity of someone by suggesting that the person has dishonest or selfish motives and *insinuating* that the person has been engaging in such distortion without actually citing examples of it. -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 16199 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!news1.digex.net!access.digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Is Greg Raven telepathic? Date: 12 Sep 1994 12:24:20 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 16 Message-ID: <351vbk$afp@access2.digex.net> References: <1994Sep03.050330.2051@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net In article , Greg Raven wrote: >I'm sure that what Mcvay meant to say is that "Irene Zdziarski" is put >forward as the chairwoman of the Holocaust Committee of the PHS, as he >certainly must know that this is a pseudonym. What is your BEST EVIDENCE that Ken McVay knows this? Do you now claim telepathic powers? (Come to think of it, what's your BEST EVIDENCE that it's a pseudonym?) -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 16203 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!kmcvay From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) Subject: Is Greg Raven telepathic, or just lying again? References: <351vbk$afp@access2.digex.net> Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac Message-ID: <1994Sep16.230053.867@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 23:00:53 GMT In article <351vbk$afp@access2.digex.net> mstein@access.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes: >In article , >Greg Raven wrote: >>I'm sure that what Mcvay meant to say is that "Irene Zdziarski" is put >>forward as the chairwoman of the Holocaust Committee of the PHS, as he >>certainly must know that this is a pseudonym. > What is your BEST EVIDENCE that Ken McVay knows this? Do you now >claim telepathic powers? I have a much better question: What is Mr. Raven's single best evidence that I even _said_ that? Given that I most certainly did _not_ write anything about Irene Zdz~, it will be more than a little amusing to see how this "senior editor" can explain how, given his patent inability to keep track of who said what a _day_ or two ago, he should be believed in any respect with regard to his assertions about what folks said fifty or so _years_ ago.... Then, of course, there was his recent complaint about the Posen speech being posted out of context (i.e. without comparision to other Himmler speeches of the period), which is an amazing complaint from the man who flat _insists_ that we can only deal with _one_ document at a time. Talk about your double standards.... Pot. Kettle. Black. -- "Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer." (Himmler, Heinrich. See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff," Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp . 140ff) Article 16206 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!ceylon!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Vicksell and the Auschwitz Brothel (was: Re: Apology to Ro Date: 12 Sep 1994 17:44:16 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 32 Message-ID: <35241g$qlr@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: <34vtek$4l3@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Ross Vicksell writes: [about why he believes there was a brothel in Auschwitz]: # My source is Ditlieb Felderer's testimony at the second Zuendel # trial. Felderer bases his testimony in part on an interview with # Franciszek Piper But Piper also says there was mass murder by gas in the camp. WHY do you believe one part of what he says and not the other? # It was not a secret that the camp had a # brothel: it was mentioned in books and its existence was confirmed by # Auschwitz camp officials. But all these people also said that there was mass murder by gas in the camp. WHY do you believe one part of what they say and not the other? Do you understand the question? Why do you take for granted some of the facts mentioned by witnesses, while rejecting all the other facts mentioned by them? Do you understand what I'm asking? If so, can you possibly answer the question? -Danny Keren. Article 16207 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!yale!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: A revisionist defines Date: 12 Sep 1994 17:52:00 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3524g0$r5c@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: <40.7175.1168@channel1.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Ross Vicksell writes: # The point I was attempting to make is that the Arabs in Israel are very # much second-class citizens. There are two or three Arabs in the Knesset. # Nuff said. I will try to check the number. I think it's higher. If I find it, I'll post a reply. -Danny Keren. Article 16213 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!insosf1.infonet.net!convex!hermes.oc.com!news.unt.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!usenet.elf.com!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something? Date: 16 Sep 1994 23:11:10 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 10 Message-ID: <35d8me$3vu@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: <3580u4$n2q@search01.news.aol.com> <3585aq$ofs@search01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu As a matter of fact, I agree with Vicksell. There's no use and no justification to put Leuchter on trial. First, I don't support the law which he is being tried for violating. Second, he's just a little, insignificant clown. Even the "revisionists" don't mention his infantile "report" any more. -Danny Keren. Article 16220 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!rpal.rockwell.com!news.Stanford.EDU!rjg From: rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU (Rich Green) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Remembering the Holocaust and Bosnia Date: 16 Sep 1994 18:11:43 GMT Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA Lines: 49 Message-ID: <35cn4v$2ee@nntp.Stanford.EDU> References: <34tgpq$6v@nntp2.Stanford.EDU> <1994Sep16.005745.14014@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: d31rz2.stanford.edu Originator: rjg@leland.Stanford.EDU In article <1994Sep16.005745.14014@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>, Stephan Schulz wrote: ---quote from a Nazi poster deleted > >I don't know anything about "Students Against Genocide", but I am >amazed at the simple solutions both Ross and Wayne can offer - Ross >seems to support the lifting of the arms embargo and Wayne argues for >a military intervention (how he can argue this and still call himself >_libertarian_ is beyond me, unless libertarian has become a cover name >for all vaguely right-wing persons claiming to be "the real >patriots"). > >Can you tell why this would solve the problem in Bosnia without much >more bloodshed than currently occurs? _I_ simply don't _know_ a >workable way that, with a reasonable amount of security, would end >this conflict. I therefore restrict myself to talk and persuasion...as >I do on this list and a different topic. > >I do indeed think that keeping alive memories of the past are one of >the best ways to avoid future mistakes... > > >Stephan > I know this thread is getting off topic (is off topic!). I'll keep it brief. I can understand your sentiments. Imagine if the people in the Warsaw uprising were denied arms. Imagine if the US military actively intervened to prevent them from getting arms. Lifting the arms embargo would allow these people to defend themselves rather than be slaughtered. Why should the US government be spending money to protect the Serbian aggressors from the arms that would surely flow in from the Muslim world? I don't know if Vicksell and other Nazis support lifting the embargo or not and frankly I don't care. If you'd like to continue this thread let's do it via e-mail to reduce the noise in this group. Rich Green rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU I agree the the situation in Bosnia is likely to Article 16230 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!news.island.net!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!usenet.elf.com!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Vicksell and the BIG LIE of "Holocaust Revisionism" (was: Re: Fr Date: 16 Sep 1994 23:20:17 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 18 Message-ID: <35d97h$494@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: <3580u4$n2q@search01.news.aol.com> <3585aq$ofs@search01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Vicksell still hasn't responded to the very simple question addressed to him: Why does he believe the testimony about the brothel at Auschwitz, and not the testimony about mass murder in the camp? There is certainly more evidence and testimony to the mass murder than to the brothel. Why does he accept the latter and reject the first? It's obvious Vicksell has no respect for the truth and that he decides which pieces of evidence to accept according to his liking, not according to their intrinsic value. He's a liar and a charlatan. He doesn't have any intellectual honesty. -Danny Keren. Article 16235 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!kmcvay From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) Subject: Re: Vicksell and the BIG LIE of "Holocaust Revisionism" (was: Re: Fr References: <3585aq$ofs@search01.news.aol.com> <35d97h$494@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac Message-ID: <1994Sep17.034951.2378@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 94 03:49:51 GMT In article <35d97h$494@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes: >Vicksell still hasn't responded to the very simple question >addressed to him: >Why does he believe the testimony about the brothel at Auschwitz, >and not the testimony about mass murder in the camp? Perhaps more to the point, one might add that many survivors mention the brothel; they mention being forced to bed SS men, since the alternative was the gas chambers. Given this convergence of evidence which Mr. Vicksell accepts, one might wish to ask him this: Does he accept the survivors' confirmation of the existence of the brothel? If so, how does he then justify rejecting anything and everything _else_ a given survivor might have to offer relating to the gas chambers, phenol injections, and similar murderous activity? Are we seeing the Vicksell Double Standard again? >There is certainly more evidence and testimony to the mass murder than >to the brothel. Why does he accept the latter and reject the first? I can hardly wait for him to mention the "swimming pool" in order to prove that Auschwitz was really a summer camp... >It's obvious Vicksell has no respect for the truth and that he >decides which pieces of evidence to accept according to his >liking, not according to their intrinsic value. He's a liar >and a charlatan. He doesn't have any intellectual honesty. It seems common to the breed... as his friends here have demonstrated over and over again. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "You misunderstand the mission of CODOH. We're in the business of promoting open debate, not necessarily engaging in it."(Ross Vicksell) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ...and there you have it... -- "Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer." (Himmler, Heinrich. See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff," Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp . 140ff) Article 16250 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!sun!oucsace!dspiegel From: dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel) Subject: Re: "G-d's Chosen" Message-ID: Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens References: Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 22:37:54 GMT Lines: 59 Nearly forgot to respond to this gem: In article , Wayne McGuire wrote: > > [Barry Shein's question why McGuire focuses > on Judaism and Wayne's preamble deleted] > >But this chosen people game in the West clearly began with >Judaism. Christianity, Islam, and Nazism were all REACTIONS to >the chosen people claims of the Jews. Go back and read the New >Testament, in case you have forgotten the basic history of ideas. You say that Nazism was a reaction to the "chosen people" concept of Judaism. Does this mean that it follows that the existence of Nazism was the Jews' fault, or that the Jews deserved what they got? I don't think you mean to imply this, but this statement is troubling. While Nazism had a lot of racial theory in its ideological base, I believe that Nazism rose due to economic conditions. It became popular because of its promises to restore Germany to its "proper place", i.e. to rebuild the German economy and reassert Germany's dominant position in Central Europe. > >You didn't answer my point that the chosen people ideology is at >the root of a good deal and perhaps most of the friction between >Jews and the rest of the world. What makes Jewish chosen >peopleness especially volatile is the integration of religion, >nationalism, tribalism, ethnocentrism, and territorialism in one >package. When ethnic and national groups make chosen people >claims, and cloak those claims with religious symbolism, they >invariably push the hottest primitive buttons of every other >ethnic and national group. Am I reading this to say, "It's all the Jews' fault"?? > >Primitive egoism. That is what underlies all the vicious conflict >among the various equally ridiculous chosen peoples in the world. >My religion is better than your religion. My nation is better >than your nation. My ethnic group is better than your ethnic >group. My tribe is better than your tribe. My territory is more >sacred than your territory. God loves me better than he loves >you. I agree with this. But to hold out Jews as more guilty than other religions, tribes, ideologies, etc; is ridiculous. And I get the impression that this is what is implied above. > >If some Jews want to adopt a chosen people stance concerning >Israel and their ethnicity--and MANY do--fine. What is it? some, or MANY? How many somes are in a MANY? -DS I speak for myself only. No unsolicited e-mail, please. I'll read your flames with everyone else. Please do not use my name in any subject headers. Article 16264 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: cyberknght@aol.com (CyberKnght) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something? Date: 17 Sep 1994 08:20:01 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 27 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <35emth$dq8@newsbf01.news.aol.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes: >> If you had lost 20 pounds in a month-long incarceration in a German >> prison, would you be eager to go back for more? Where do you get these figures from? From Fred himself? Fred has lied about being an engineer and about servicing execution chambers. Hardly a credible witness. And what is this "stomach condition" he says he has? I personally have witnessed Fred drinking coffee. What kind of stomach condition can allow someone to drink coffee? And I saw him after his return from Germany, and he was still skinny and still had his little 54 year old pot belly as always. He hadn't appeared to have lost any weight, and he was still drinking coffee. I've also seen him drinking something I assumed was liquer, but I never bothered to check for certain, so I can't swear to it. And so what if he lost a couple pounds? Isn't jail, in the words of Paula Poundstone, supposed to be just a little bit bad for you? >>Hey, maybe the OSI could track him down. Since they're running out of >>"Nazis" they should be thinking about making the switch to "neo-Nazis." That's a good idea! (Why is the word "Nazi" in quotes? You believe Nazis are like unicorns and mermaids, a myth?) *(*(*(*(* CyberKnight *(*(*(*(* Article 16387 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!husc-news.harvard.edu!husc.harvard.edu!fas!stara Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Dinner in Cambridge Message-ID: <354chc$p6b@scunix2.harvard.edu> From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond) Date: 13 Sep 1994 14:21:32 GMT References: Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts NNTP-Posting-Host: fas.harvard.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 36 Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote: : It all started out when Felix Vagabond offered to treat me to dinner at : a restaurant in Cambridge if I managed to get Robert Faurisson to come on : the net. Then another Boston area netter suggested that a different : restaurant would be better. At that point I chimed in and suggested that : it would nice to get together regardless of whether I was able to recruit : Faurisson or not. : I'm reiterating the proposal. Lets us alt.revisionism fans get together : at some easily accessible restaurant in Cambridge or Boston for an evening : of food and conversation. If you're interested, holler. Ross as I have stated to Mike stein I have been forewarned by my father. But if you are willing to persuade Robert Faurisson to come, I'm gamed. Sorry Ross no cats at the table! I'm allergic to cats and smoke. Ps. I love all kinds of animals in the wild, and will never keep one as a pet, cause I wouldn't like to be one like them, however, I'm carnivore, but most of the time like to eat vegies(especially organic). Ross have you been to Marino on Mass ave? : Ross Vicksell -- ============================================================================== ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews) VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS. ============================================================================== Article 16388 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!husc-news.harvard.edu!husc.harvard.edu!fas!stara Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Vicksell and the Auschwitz Whore House (was: Re: Polish Historica Message-ID: <354d8o$p6b@scunix2.harvard.edu> From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond) Date: 13 Sep 1994 14:34:00 GMT References: <3437cj$m6i@agate.berkeley.edu> <34tc96$ha6@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts NNTP-Posting-Host: fas.harvard.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 57 Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote: : Ross Vicksell wrote: : [about Auschwitz] : # I'm serious. They had a whore house too. : As a matter of fact, this might be true. I recall reading somewhere : that there was a brothel in Auschwitz, used by the SS and perhaps some : of the kapos. Proves nothing, of course. : But that is not the main issue. : The main issue is that Vicksell agrees that there was a brothel in : Auschwitz. That is, he accepts witness testimony regarding this. : Why does Vicksell then reject the testimony of witnesses on mass : murder in the camp? Certainly, many more witnesses spoke of this : mass murder than about the brothel. : This is so bloody transparent. It's so bloody stupid. : Vicksell uses the same rule used by every Holocaust denier: he accepts : only the parts of the testimonies that he likes. These, he has no : trouble accepting as genuine and accurate. The others, which he : doesn't like, he regards as lies. : No more needs to be said. This little example shows very well what : "Holocaust revisionism" is. They feel if they fragmented the truth and then marry it with lies it might serve as facts and complacencies will add to it. Wrong. There people who work very hard to mend and cure the truth to its origin. Hey I heard the other day a fella is selling the sun! is there anyone buying? Revisionist can try, but will never succeed. There is a saying in the Caribans islands:"you can fool people, but you can't fool them all the time." : -Danny Keren. -- ============================================================================== ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews) VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS. ============================================================================== Article 16436 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Vicksell and the BIG LIE of "Holocaust Revisionism" (Was: Re: "Pol Date: 20 Sep 1994 13:12:51 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 27 Message-ID: <35mn4j$qi8@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: <1994Sep03.050330.2051@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Still no response from Vicksell, I see. He's still reading the newsgroup and commenting on various matters; why doesn't he respond to the very crucial question posed to him? WHY does he accept only the testimonies of former Auschwitz inmates and guards that he likes, while rejecting the rest? Obviously, this makes him a liar and a fraud, and highly damages the image of "Holocaust revisionism" (an image which is already up shit creek). Vicksell cannot say "yes, I believe what this and that said about the Auschwitz brothel, but I don't believe what he said about mass murder in the camp, and I also don't believe what everyone else said about mass murder in the camp". This proves that his criterion for evaluating the evidence is not its quality, but the correlation of that evidence with what he decided happened in Auschwitz. As noted, Vicksell works in an opposite way to that of a historian: first he decides what happened, and then he decided if to accept or reject the evidence, according to whether it suits his "theory" or not. It should be the other way around. Can Vicksell respond to this? -Danny Keren. Article 16452 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!fonorola!mitel!not-for-mail From: freedman@software.mitel.com (Gordon Freedman) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: A revisionist defines Date: 20 Sep 1994 11:49:24 -0400 Organization: Mitel Corporation Lines: 16 Message-ID: <35n0a4$d5q@picard.mitel.com> References: <40.7175.1168@channel1.com> <56VTk0yNU2x9069yn@world.std.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: picard.mitel.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] The only Golux in the World and not a mere Device. (golux@mcs.com) wrote: : I am not personally familiar with "the facts about Israel" on this point, : so I would appreciate an answer to these questions. Again: : 1. What are the criteria for being a "second-class citizen"? : 2. How do the Arabs in Israel meet these criteria? 3. Who are Arabs? (There are many Jews in Israel who come from Arab nations) : Thanks. Gordon - My opinion - Article 16459 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Dinner in Cambridge Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 02:25:17 GMT Lines: 14 charles11@delphi.com wrote: : Ross Vicksell writes: : : >I'm reiterating the proposal. Lets us alt.revisionism fans get together : >at some easily accessible restaurant in Cambridge or Boston for an evening : >of food and conversation. If you're interested, holler. : : Count me in. I live inSharon and as a victim of the Nazis I am more than : interested. So any of you other Boston area alt.revisionism posters and lurkers care to join Charles and me some evening for dinner? Ross Vicksell Article 16481 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.cic.net!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <35emth$dq8@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 20:35:04 GMT Lines: 39 CyberKnght (cyberknght@aol.com) wrote: : In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross : Vicksell) writes: : >> If you had lost 20 pounds in a month-long incarceration in a German : >> prison, would you be eager to go back for more? : Where do you get these figures from? From Fred himself? Fred has lied : about being an engineer and about servicing execution chambers. Hardly a You don't know what you're talking about. I'm not to sure about gas chambers, but I know he's serviced electric chairs, whish I presume reside in "execution chambers." : credible witness. And what is this "stomach condition" he says he has? I : personally have witnessed Fred drinking coffee. What kind of stomach : condition can allow someone to drink coffee? And I saw him after his : return from Germany, and he was still skinny and still had his little 54 : year old pot belly as always. He hadn't appeared to have lost any weight, : and he was still drinking coffee. I've also seen him drinking something I : assumed was liquer, but I never bothered to check for certain, so I can't : swear to it. You failed to mention that he smokes. : And so what if he lost a couple pounds? Isn't jail, in the words of Paula : Poundstone, supposed to be just a little bit bad for you? : >>Hey, maybe the OSI could track him down. Since they're running out of : >>"Nazis" they should be thinking about making the switch to "neo-Nazis." : That's a good idea! (Why is the word "Nazi" in quotes? You believe : Nazis are like unicorns and mermaids, a myth?) I just don't think that anyone who ever served as a guard in a German concentration camp is ipso facto a Nazi. : *(*(*(*(* CyberKnight *(*(*(*(* Article 16482 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.cic.net!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <35d8me$3vu@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <35en8p$dr6@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 20:40:04 GMT Lines: 16 CyberKnght (cyberknght@aol.com) wrote: : In article <35d8me$3vu@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) : writes: : >> As a matter of fact, I agree with Vicksell. There's no use and no : >> justification to put Leuchter on trial. : Perhaps you're right. There are few idiots more discredited than Fred is : by now. This should be the final straw, since he is unwilling to stand up : for his "beliefs." One wonders how strongly he believes what he's said : when he won't stand trial for what he feels is the "truth." One can now "trial" Ross Vicksell Article 16495 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-02.dialip.mich.net!user From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something? Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 00:42:31 -0400 Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 95 Message-ID: References: <35emth$dq8@newsbf01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-02.dialip.mich.net codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > CyberKnght (cyberknght@aol.com) wrote: > > : Where do you get these figures from? From Fred himself? Fred has lied > : about being an engineer and about servicing execution chambers. Hardly a > > You don't know what you're talking about. I'm not to sure about gas > chambers, but I know he's serviced electric chairs, whish I presume > reside in "execution chambers." I find myself repeating myself: you obviously haven't read the Leuchter FAQ. Section 3.10. The following is taken from Leuchter's testimony at the Zundel trial (Douglas Christie, Zundel's attorney is the questioner) - following the testimony are verbatim quotes from two American prison officials, which were obtained after Leuchter's testimony at the trial. We believe you will have no difficulty in determining the value of Mr. Leuchter's credentials after considering both: Q: And what is your relationship with the operation of those facilities [i.e. gas chambers] in those two States [California and North Carolina]? A: We consulted with both States, California primarily on a heart monitoring system to replace the older type mechanical diagraph stethoscope that's presently in use. We will be shipping to them shortly and installing a new heart monitor for both chairs in their gas chamber. Q: You are consulted by the State, I understand? A: Yes, Juan Vasquez. Q: I see. And in North Carolina? A: North Carolina. My discussions and work was with one Nathan Reise, and he had some work done by their maintenance personnel on their gas chamber two years ago, and they had a problem with the gasket on a door leaking. At which point, we discussed it with him and recommended remedial procedures to change the gas chamber. Q: And he consults you in regard to those matters? A: He does. What do those two facilities have to say about the matter? First, the warden at San Quentin (California) responds: "I can inform you, however, that San Quentin has not contracted with Fred A. Leuchter, Jr. for the installation of a heart monitoring system or for any other work." Signed: DANIEL B. Vasquez, Warden (California) Next, we offer the comments from North Carolina prison officials: "I discussed your request with Mr. Nathan A. RICE, Former Warden, and he stated that he vaguely recalled a telephone conversation between him and a gentleman professing to be an expert on execution chambers. Mr. Rice further states that the gentleman called him for the purpose of selling a lethal injection machine... Also, our records do not support that Mr. Leuchter performed either consulting or any service...I can attest that the planning and work was performed by the Department of Correction Engineering Section and our institution maintenance department." Signed: Gary T. Dixon, Warden (North Carolina) We discover, then, that neither California nor North Carolina have consulted with Leuchter regarding their gas chambers. Leuchter was incapable of even getting the names of the wardens right, and clearly lying about his "professional" relationships with them. > I just don't think that anyone who ever served as a guard in a German > concentration camp is ipso facto a Nazi. What -- you think they _conscripted_ troops to serve as camp guards?! It's well-documented that only a select few were able to serve as guards at the camps. I believe all of them were SS. Now, I don't doubt that many members of the German army would not call themselves Nazis -- but the SS sure would. And you think that, if there were an SS who wasn't a Nazi, he would be selected for the sensitive job of camp guard? Really, now, Ross. -- Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre and everything starts falling into place." - Steve Miller Article 16497 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: History and Credibility Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <8SEP199415174118@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <34t0qs$7to@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 05:06:09 GMT Lines: 30 Daniel Rice (rice@servo.eng.sun.com) wrote: : In article , : Wayne McGuire wrote: : >Another example: we often read in the major media that Saddam : >Hussein threatened to annihilate Israel with weapons of mass : >destruction. Many Jews have tried to give the impression that : >Saddam was threatening an OFFENSIVE action. In fact, if you read : >his remarks in context, Saddam threatened to attack Israel IF : >Israel attacked Iraq with nuclear weapons: he was clearly : >referring to a DEFENSIVE action in response to an Israeli nuclear : >attack. : This statement amazes me. Why should anyone care about Saddam's : "remarks"? The man lobbed scuds at Israel, without so much as one : Israeli soldier, tank, bomb, or jet attacking him. So perhaps his You are being just a wee bit disingenuous. Israel perceived Iraq as it's number one foe. Recall how the Israelis had "taken out" the Iraqi nuclear reactor a few years earlier. As far as not participating in the Gulf turkey shoot, the Israeli's, I'm sure, were perfectly happy having the U.S. bomb Iraq back into the Stone Age for them. : statements before the war were misunderstood. Did he then say to : himself "golly, I only meant that I'd defend myself, but now I'm so : hurt by these willful misinterpretations that I'll go ahead and : attack the civilian population centers of a nation which isn't even : participating in the coalition against me"? If he did, should I : be sympathetic? Ross Vicksell Article 16506 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!sjsumcs.sjsu.edu!wetware!sgiblab!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Faurisson and the "Anal Complex" Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <35jufk$dku@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 03:29:32 GMT Lines: 36 Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote: : This excerpt from a book by Robert Faurisson was posted sometime : ago by Jamie McCarthy. Faurisson is considered to be the most : prominent "Holocaust revisionist" around. He is the author of : numerous articles on "revisionism", and has given many talks : at IHR "conferences" etc. : : # We feel that another forceful reason why the Anne Frank diary cannot be : # entirely dismissed as a fictitious story is its preoccupation with the : # anus and excrements, a trait typical of many Jews. Pornography and : # excretal fantasies have always fascinated many of them and they have : # therefore also been the greatest exploiters of these things. ... Jewish : # writings have been infused with stories about the reproductive and : # excremental functions. ... Although we cannot dismiss the argument that : # these excremental preoccupations are mere fancies on the part of the : # author or authors there are good reasons to believe the stories are : # genuine and are in part reflecting some of the foremost intellectual : # thought of the occupants. Even if they were invented they nevertheless : # splendidly depict the anal complex, of an ancient, cultural people. : : Perhaps Bradley Smith, or Ross Vicksell, can contact Faurisson and : ask him about the excerpt posted above. : -Danny Keren. O.K., I'll see whether Faurisson wants to comment. Ross Vicksell Article 16523 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Holocaust history - Sept. 19 Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <35kg7l$agg@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 23:37:20 GMT Lines: 0 Article 16524 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!news.intercon.com!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something? Date: 22 Sep 1994 12:05:33 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 24 Message-ID: <35sa0d$siq@access4.digex.net> References: <35emth$dq8@newsbf01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net In article , Ross Vicksell wrote: >You don't know what you're talking about. I'm not to sure about gas >chambers, but I know he's serviced electric chairs, whish I presume >reside in "execution chambers." How do you know that Leuchter has in fact serviced electric chairs? What physical or documentary evidence do you have? If you are relying solely on Leuchter's word, why is it any more reliable than his claims that he consulted with prisons whose wardens explicitly denied that Leuchter had done work for them? >I just don't think that anyone who ever served as a guard in a German >concentration camp is ipso facto a Nazi. What shall we call them, then? If we call them "German," you will object that it smears all Germans. Besides, not all of them were Germans - many were Ukrainians. This means that "SS" would not be accurate either; I don't think the Ukrainians were made part of the SS. -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 16528 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!ub!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Faurisson and the "Anal Complex" Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <35jufk$dku@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 00:44:35 GMT Lines: 11 I faxed Faurisson the quotation attributed to him. His reply: "I never wrote such a thing! And, supposing we are antisemites, does this make only one Nazi gas chamber to exist? WHY waste so much time AROUND the topic? ... I skimmed thru the booklet "Is the Diary of Ann Frank Genuine", which I presume is the work the passage in question is supposed to have appeared in, and failed to find anything remotely resembling it. Ross Vicksell Article 16534 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!kmcvay From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something? References: <35emth$dq8@newsbf01.news.aol.com> <35sa0d$siq@access4.digex.net> Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac Message-ID: <1994Sep24.232451.11959@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> Date: Sat, 24 Sep 94 23:24:51 GMT In article <35sa0d$siq@access4.digex.net> mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes: >In article , >Ross Vicksell wrote: >>You don't know what you're talking about. I'm not to sure about gas >>chambers, but I know he's serviced electric chairs, whish I presume >>reside in "execution chambers." > How do you know that Leuchter has in fact serviced electric chairs? >What physical or documentary evidence do you have? (You forgot to ask for his single best piece...) > If you are relying solely on Leuchter's word, why is it any more >reliable than his claims that he consulted with prisons whose wardens >explicitly denied that Leuchter had done work for them? Why would Mr. Vicksell, who repeatedly rejects eyewitness testimony as invalid, accept Mr. Leuchter's word for anything? >>I just don't think that anyone who ever served as a guard in a German >>concentration camp is ipso facto a Nazi. > What shall we call them, then? If we call them "German," you will >object that it smears all Germans. Besides, not all of them were >Germans - many were Ukrainians. This means that "SS" would not be >accurate either; I don't think the Ukrainians were made part of the SS. According to the Soviet interrogation records of Russian and Ukrainian Wachmen, they were indeed considered SS men. Given their forced conscription, it is probably safe to assume they were apolitical, since they weren't offered much of a choice by the SS recruiters. Their subsequent record of brutality, however, raises interesting human issues, and suggests that referring to them as Nazis is accurate, at least to a degree, although I doubt very much the description fit politically. -- "However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for Historical Review) Article 16539 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Message-ID: Keywords: Faurisson Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 04:11:32 GMT Lines: 24 Robert Faurisson asked me to post this. It's about the stormy half-hour visit he and I and my taciturn friend from Boston made to Michael Berenbaum and a couple of his colleagues in his office in the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Could you, please, insist on the fact that Michael Berenbaum on August 30, 1994, when asked WHY there was no physical representation of the Nazi gas chamber in his museum replies : "The decision has been taken [by the authorities of the HMM] NOT to give any physical representation of the Nazi gas chamber" and refused to explain WHY? This was a red-letter-day for revisionism! It is like a priest or a cardinal or a pope (M.B. is a theologian) deciding not to put any cross in any church. The reason "WHY" is that such a gas chamber never existed nor could have existed for physical, chemical and topographical reason. Notice that M.B. did not try to defend his stupid ARTISTIC, but not scientific, model of Krema II. In fact there is NO hole in the roof and the pillars are NOT perforated! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ross Vicksell Article 16548 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!yale!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson and the "Anal Complex" Date: 23 Sep 1994 18:12:28 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 21 Message-ID: <35v5qc$nu7@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: <35jufk$dku@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Ok, so Jamie made a mistake - he confused two leading "Holocaust revisionists". He apologized for it. I could not verify the text for myself because, as I noted, Brown U. doesn't have the book. We all make mistakes here and there - Jamie certainly didn't do this on purpose. However, the main point remains: A "leading Holocaust revisionists" (Felderer) is a filthy racist swine. Only a sick, depraved, racist scum would write something like what he wrote about the "anal complex of the Jews". Perhaps Bradley Smith would comment on this? -Danny Keren. Article 16549 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!ceylon!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson and the "Anal Complex" Date: 23 Sep 1994 18:24:19 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 6 Message-ID: <35v6gj$ogh@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: <35jufk$dku@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu As noted already, there was a confusion between Faurisson and another "revisionist scholar", Felderer. -Danny Keren. Article 16554 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-01.dialip.mich.net!user From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 10:33:27 -0400 Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-01.dialip.mich.net codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > Robert Faurisson asked me to post this. > > Could you, please, insist on the fact that Michael Berenbaum on August > 30, 1994, when asked WHY there was no physical representation of the Nazi > gas chamber in his museum replies : "The decision has been taken [by the > authorities of the HMM] NOT to give any physical representation of the > Nazi gas chamber" and refused to explain WHY? The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum doing anything for Holocaust-deniers' sake would be like the Air & Space Museum putting up an exhibit to prove that the Earth is not flat. > This was a red-letter-day for revisionism! It is like a priest or a > cardinal or a pope (M.B. is a theologian) deciding not to put any cross > in any church. Monsieur Faurisson has come up with an astonishingly bad analogy. I might suggest a better one: it's like the pope refusing to explain to the president of the Athiests' Society why he believes in God. It's still a lousy analogy (in that it compares Berenbaum to the pope, and compares the reality of the Holocaust to matters of faith), but I wasn't given much to work with. > The reason "WHY" is that such a gas chamber never existed nor could > have existed for physical, chemical and topographical reason. Faurisson is lecturing us on chemistry? Is this the same Faurisson who demonstrated to Michael Stein his lack of understanding of the formation of ferrocyanic compounds, and then refused to speak any further when Mr. Stein pointed out that lack? > Notice that M.B. did not try to defend his stupid ARTISTIC, but not > scientific, model of Krema II. In fact there is NO hole in the roof and > the pillars are NOT perforated! Wow! And you know what -- the Stealth bomber that they have on exhibit at the Air & Space museum -- it can't actually fly! Thus, I have concluded that no Stealth bombers exist. -- Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre and everything starts falling into place." - Steve Miller Article 16560 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-01.dialip.mich.net!user From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson and the "Anal Complex" Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 10:54:19 -0400 Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <35jufk$dku@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-01.dialip.mich.net codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > I faxed Faurisson the quotation attributed to him. His reply: > > "I never wrote such a thing! And, supposing we are antisemites, does > this make only one Nazi gas chamber to exist? WHY waste so much time > AROUND the topic? ... > > I skimmed thru the booklet "Is the Diary of Ann Frank Genuine", which I > presume is the work the passage in question is supposed to have appeared > in, and failed to find anything remotely resembling it. That's cause Faurisson didn't write it. It's my fault, I copied the attribution down wrong. See the thread in which Mr. Smith points this out to me, and in which I profusely apologize and offer an explanation of my stupidity. The real author was Felderer, in _Diary of Anne Frank: A Hoax_. If Faurisson or any other Holocaust-denier wishes to stop "wasting so much time AROUND the topic," he is welcome to dive in directly, and begin dealing with facts instead of innuendo and lurid questions. I suggest one of two routes: (1) Join Mr. Raven in his attempts to discredit Document #1 that was presented to him on May 4th: Himmler's Poznan speeches. Mr. Raven seems to think that the whole Holocaust can hinge on this one piece of evidence. He's wrong about that, of course, but we're discussing it anyway. (2) Accept my challenge to pick the topic. Name any topic that you feel best proves that the Holocaust did not happen. I'm not restricting the number of _pieces of evidence_ that you can present, I'm only saying it's easier to discuss one narrow topic than several broad ones. I'm also not saying you have to disprove the _entire_ Holocaust all at once, only that you should offer forth your best attack, which does the most damage possible. Example topics might be: chemical analysis of the Auschwitz gas chambers proves that gassings did not take place; chemical analysis of diesel exhaust proves that Reinhard gassings did not take place; examination of train schedules shows that Jews were not really being taken to Treblinka; etc. Come up with your own. And, once you've chosen the topic, the only rule would be that you can't change the subject until we agree that discussion on that topic is over. -- Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre and everything starts falling into place." - Steve Miller Article 16566 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Polish Historical Society: Nazi front? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <1994Sep05.223540.16957@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <3437cj$m6i@agate.berkeley.edu> <1994Sep03.045235.1875@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> Date: Sat, 24 Sep 1994 04:13:11 GMT Lines: 7 When we were visiting Berenbaum, I noticed he had a copy of book called "The Armenian File", which gived the Turkish side of things. on his shelf. Didn't get a chance to ask him what he thought of it, tho. Faurisson and Berenbaum were doing all the talking; the other four of us just looked on. Ross Vicksell Article 16570 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: My "double standard" Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 1994 17:08:08 GMT Lines: 17 Danny Keren and other Holocaust affirmers like to accuse me, and other revisionists, of observing a double standard in evaluating testimony, from people who were there during the war,. about what went on in the camps; we discount survivor testimony while accepting at face value what people on our side say. Let me merely remark that are and were powerful incentives for people who were in the camps to embrace the standard version of what happened there, e.g. they were wined and dined in Nuerenberg and in Israel. On the other hand there were powerful disincentives to go against the conventional story, witness what happened to Paul Rassinier, Wilhelm Staeglich, and Thies Christophersen. The bottom line, however, is that physical evidence is much more trustworthy than human testimony. Ross Vicksell Article 16584 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!landpost_ppp.clark.net!user From: landpost@clark.net Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson and the "Anal Complex" Date: 25 Sep 1994 00:16:38 GMT Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <35jufk$dku@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <35v5qc$nu7@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: landpost_ppp.clark.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In article <35v5qc$nu7@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote: >...........a > filthy racist swine. Only a sick, depraved, racist scum....... > ------------------------------- Keren, are you looking in the mirror again?? Tim McCarthy landpost@clark.net Article 16592 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!ankh.iia.org!ralph.vnet.net!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: My "double standard" Date: 24 Sep 1994 21:09:15 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 84 Message-ID: <362ijr$8pj@access4.digex.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net In article , Ross Vicksell wrote: >Danny Keren and other Holocaust affirmers like to accuse me, and other >revisionists, of observing a double standard in evaluating testimony, from >people who were there during the war,. about what went on in the camps; we >discount survivor testimony while accepting at face value what people on >our side say. > >Let me merely remark that are and were powerful incentives for people >who were in the camps to embrace the standard version of what happened >there, e.g. they were wined and dined in Nuerenberg and in Israel. Of course, fascists and anti-semites have NO reason to call the Jews liars; their motives are COMPLETELY selfless and pure.... Rudolf Hoess may have been wined and dined in Nuremberg, but never in Israel. (I understand it is customary to give a good last meal to those who are to be executed.) Although Hoess's initial statement upon capture was given after a beating, he reaffirmed his guilt in his autobiography after his conviction (and mentioned the beating in it, which makes it hard to argue that the autobiography was coerced). Franz Suchomel was fed for several years - in prison. After his release, he voluntarily appeared on camera in "Shoah" and acknowledged his guilt. Who paid him off to confess - in public! - to a crime you claim he didn't commit, after he had already served his time? (And where's your proof of this payoff?) Kurt Gerstein told friends and a Swedish diplomat *during the war* that Jews were being exterminated. Who wined and dined him then? German industrialist Eduard Schulte learned that Auschwitz would be used to exterminate Jews and risked his life to bring this news to the American legation in Switzerland. Jankiel Wiernik escaped from Treblinka and brought the story out long before Nuremberg. The Polish Underground observed the Reinhard camps - Jews check in, but they don't check out, just their clothing - and while they didn't understand the truth behind the smoke they saw (they were looking on from a distance, and misinterpreted it as steam rather than engine exhaust) they knew that Jews were being killed. Again, this is before Nuremberg. So how do you explain these testimonies which don't seem to fit your "wined and dined in Nuremberg and Israel" theory? >The bottom line, however, is that physical evidence is much more >trustworthy than human testimony. Like the bones and ashes at the Reinhard camps? Like the huge number of cremation furnaces at Auschwitz-Birkenau? Like the photographs of open pit burning of corpses at Auschwitz-Birkenau? Like the cyanide traces even Leuchter found in Krema I? Like the gas-tight door at Auschwitz-Birkenau with a metal grille protecting the peephole? (Protecting it from what?) How about documentary evidence from during the war? Like the letter from Bischoff to Kammler talking about a "Vergasungskeller?" The construction plans and inventory sheets from the Kremas, showing a room with a gas-tight door and showers - but no plumbing going to the showers (in other words, dummy showers, just like the witnesses said, Ross)? The office diaries of Hans Frank, referring to the loss of Jewish workers due to an order to liquidate the Jews? The Einsatzgruppen reports, showing the execution of hundreds of thousands of Jews? (This is not evidence of any plan or policy to kill Jews, claims Greg Raven. Yeah, sure, and the high death rate of smokers is not evidence of any health risk of smoking.) -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 16598 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.kei.com!eff!wariat.org!malgudi.oar.net!sun!oucsace!dspiegel From: dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel) Subject: Re: My "double standard" Message-ID: Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens References: Date: Sun, 25 Sep 1994 04:54:34 GMT Lines: 44 In article , Ross Vicksell wrote: >Danny Keren and other Holocaust affirmers like to accuse me, and other >revisionists, of observing a double standard in evaluating testimony, from |||||||||||| Revisionists >people who were there during the war,. about what went on in the camps; we >discount survivor testimony while accepting at face value what people on >our side say. This is true. >Let me merely remark that are and were powerful incentives for people >who were in the camps to embrace the standard version of what happened >there, e.g. they were wined and dined in Nuerenberg and in Israel. Name some survivors who were wined and dined in Nuerenberg. I'm also curious what Israel did to influence the manner in which the survivors recalled their experiences. I'm sure you can document this ;-|. > On >the other hand there were powerful disincentives to go against the >conventional story, witness what happened to Paul Rassinier, Wilhelm >Staeglich, and Thies Christophersen. I've never heard of these three. What happened to them, where, and why? (Documented, please) >The bottom line, however, is that physical evidence is much more >trustworthy than human testimony. What is the physical evidence of the brothel? How is it more convincing than the physical evidence of the gassing operation? Answer the question. Why do you believe the brothel, but not the gassing operation? > > Ross Vicksell -DS I speak for myself only. No unsolicited e-mail, please. I'll read your flames with everyone else. Please do not use my name in any subject headers. Article 16600 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!yale!news2.near.net!news.delphi.com!usenet From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: Sun, 25 Sep 94 10:34:01 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1c.delphi.com X-To: Jamie McCarthy From: Michael A. Hoffman II. Jamie McCarthy suggests that Berenbaum's credibility as director of the U.-ocaust Memorial Museum (HMM) is intact even though Berenbaum informed Dr. Faurisson that the HMM refuses to exhibit a physical representation of a homicidal gas chamber. McCarthy states in defense of Berenbaum: "The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum doing anything for Holocaust- deniers' sake would be like the Air and Space Museum putting up an exhibit to prove that the earth is not flat." Au contraire, Mr. McCarthy. For the national museum devoted to the mass murder by poison gas of millions of people not to have a replica of an alleged "Nazi homicidal gas chamber," is tantamount to the Space Museum not having any rockets on display. Professor Faurisson is correct when he places the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in the realm of theology. It is a cathedral of a state religion, not a museum of science or history. Why has the museum omitted physically representing a homicidal gas chamber? Because such an exhibit would be subject to scientific and technical scrutiny and like the Shroud of Turin, it would fail the tests. Therefore, Dr. Faurisson's analogy was precise and accurate. The taxpayer-financed "Holocaust" museum is in fact unConstitutional. It is inviolation of the establishment clause of the First Amendment. It represents the first establishment of a religion in the 218 year history of our Republic. -Michael A. Hoffman II Editor, Revisionist Researcher Newsletter. 6 issue sub:U.S.$30. Special "Swindler's Mist" issue devoted to the errors in Schindler's List: U.S.$6. Fro Wiswell Ruffin House, PO Box 236, Dresden, New York 14441 Article 16602 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: cyberknght@aol.com (CyberKnght) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something? Date: 25 Sep 1994 09:28:05 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 16 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <363tt5$7b1@newsbf01.news.aol.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes: At Fred's last trial in Cambridge, he wasn't able to confirm ANY of his reference whom he said he'd done work for on ANY kind of device. According to an article I read, Fred's only "work" in execution devices may have been to testify in court against penal systems that refused to hire him to service their devices. And oh yes, he smokes... a LOT. forgive me for not message-quoting, but this stupid software from America Online crashes when I try to cut/paste between messages. *(*(* CyberKnight *(*(* Article 16613 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ai292 From: ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gordon McFee) Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something? Message-ID: Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (Usenet News Admin) Reply-To: ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gordon McFee) Organization: The National Capital FreeNet References: <363tt5$7b1@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Date: Sun, 25 Sep 1994 16:08:07 GMT Lines: 24 In a previous article, cyberknght@aol.com (CyberKnght) says: >In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross >Vicksell) writes: > >At Fred's last trial in Cambridge, he wasn't able to confirm ANY of his >reference whom he said he'd done work for on ANY kind of device. Hardly surprising. > >According to an article I read, Fred's only "work" in execution devices >may have been to testify in court against penal systems that refused to >hire him to service their devices. > >And oh yes, he smokes... a LOT. Ah, I'll hate myself for this, but *what* foes he smoke? -- Gordon McFee ai292 I'll write no line before its time! Article 16635 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: More museum hoaxes! Date: 25 Sep 1994 19:28:59 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 35 Message-ID: <36513r$r0b@access4.digex.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net In article , wrote: >Why has the museum omitted physically representing >a homicidal gas chamber? Because such an exhibit would be subject to >scientific and technical scrutiny and like the Shroud of Turin, it would >fail the tests. I would like to know what tests one would devise for such a model? That it be able to function and kill people? Is Mr. Hoffman volunteering for such an experiment? The real problem is that since the Auschwitz gas chambers were not captured intact (and I have yet to see any credible explanation from revisionists as to why Kremas II-V were dynamited if they were as innocent as they claim), and were not photographed by their builders, it is impossible to reproduce precisely what they looked like, other than the rough outlines available from the construction drawings. One could certainly come up with a plausible reconstruction from the drawings, but it would still be a recreation, not accurate in every detail. However, I don't know why the Holocaust Museum finds this a problem. This messy detail does not stop other museums from exhibiting patently fraudulent reconstructions without any sort of warning that they are merely speculative. I'm not talking about gas chambers - I'm talking about dinosaurs. All we have are bones; nobody has ever really seen a dinosaur "in the flesh" and the lifelike recreations in museums are only informed speculation. Many supposed "dinosaurs" are not even based on complete skeletons! Yet that doesn't stop the paleohoaxers. Why aren't the revisionists engaged in a crusade to expose the dinosaur myth? -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 16640 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum In-Reply-To: hoffman2nd@delphi.com's message of Sun, 25 Sep 94 10:34:01 -0500 Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Zorya) Organization: The World References: Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 01:06:08 GMT Lines: 58 From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com >The taxpayer-financed "Holocaust" museum is in fact unConstitutional. It is >inviolation of the establishment clause of the First Amendment. It >represents the first establishment of a religion in the 218 year history of our >Republic. Unlike the National Cathedral which has now cost the taxpayers a few billion dollars and I believe still isn't completed after 20 years of construction (I know, now some will say they're against that also, but funny they don't make much noise unless goaded.) At least the Holocaust Museum certainly has as a theme a mere recounting and education in history. It's hardly a religious edifice except in that strange double-speak of fanatics where similes and metaphors are suddenly confused with the actual thing to feign outrage (as above.) At least we can note that a Jew or a Muslim or an Atheist would have no use for a National Cathedral while we have to at least admit that every single person in the US would feel perfectly served by visiting the Holocaust museum whether they agree with all its displays or not. This is more akin to a creationist claiming that a dinosaur display at a natural history museum is tax-sponsored religion (or anti-religion, but they often claim that "secular humanism", ie common understanding of things like creation, is a religion and thus a tax-sponsored display of a dinosaur would be a violation of the first amendment, blah blah blah.) That you happen to be sensitive to the fact that a lot of this history affected the Jews does not make it a religious issue (it affected others also, Gypsies etc for one, and the few million American men and women who fought in WWII for another) any more than a historical display about Native Americans at some other museum would, by your reasoning, be there as a benefit to Native Americans. It's there to educate people. That there's a fringe of about 1/10 of 1% who will believe that the earth is flat or that UFOs abduct and impregnate women or that the Holocaust never occurred does not change that. Convince someone of your (peculiar) views and you'll make progress. Failing that, which is likely given the truth of the matter, and you'll continue to be another frustrated, whack-o loudmouth whose best prospects are to be yet another freak paraded onto the Geraldo show. But I'll be goddamned if you're going to get away with couching your utterly repugnant and bizarre views in phrasings of JUSTICE. To hell with you, the furthest thing from your mind is justice or fairness. You don't fool anyone for a moment. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 16643 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Fred A. Leuchter Jr... You Forget Something? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 01:40:12 GMT Lines: 29 Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote: : codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: : > I just don't think that anyone who ever served as a guard in a German : > concentration camp is ipso facto a Nazi. : What -- you think they _conscripted_ troops to serve as camp guards?! Well, toward the end of the war they conscripted people into the SS, according to Fritz Berg. : It's well-documented that only a select few were able to serve as guards : at the camps. I believe all of them were SS. Now, I don't doubt that : many members of the German army would not call themselves Nazis -- but : the SS sure would. And you think that, if there were an SS who wasn't a Some were and some weren't. : Nazi, he would be selected for the sensitive job of camp guard? sensitive schmensitive. So they took some kind of oath of secrecy. So what. So did U.S. Army MPs. A lot of camp guards were just guys who couldn't serve at the front, for various reasons. : Really, now, Ross. : -- : Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy : "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre : and everything starts falling into place." - Steve Miller Article 16659 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!uhog.mit.edu!news.kei.com!world!wmcguire From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Message-ID: Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die References: Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 10:11:11 GMT Lines: 27 In article , k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: //codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: // //> Robert Faurisson asked me to post this. //> //> Could you, please, insist on the fact that Michael Berenbaum on August //> 30, 1994, when asked WHY there was no physical representation of the Nazi //> gas chamber in his museum replies : "The decision has been taken [by the //> authorities of the HMM] NOT to give any physical representation of the //> Nazi gas chamber" and refused to explain WHY? // //The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum doing anything for Holocaust-deniers' //sake would be like the Air & Space Museum putting up an exhibit to prove //that the Earth is not flat. I don't understand this, Jamie. WHY did the authorities of the HMM not give any physical representation of a gas chamber? It seems like a fair question. The gas chamber is the central symbol of the Holocaust. Why not depict it at the Holocaust Museum? Surely it would be in their own interest to do so. NOT depicting the gas chamber gives the revisionists an opening through which to drive a Mack truck, no? Why give them such a juicy opening? Article 16662 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: 26 Sep 1994 11:11:06 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 14 Message-ID: <366a8a$lc2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: