Archive/File: holocaust/usa/codoh rv.1094 Last-Modified: 1994/11/01 Article 16783 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!agate!ames!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!netcomsv!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Message-ID:Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 04:54:26 GMT Lines: 22 The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device (golux@mcs.com) wrote: : In article , wmcguire@world.std.com : (Wayne McGuire) wrote: : In fact, there is a small-scale model of an Auschwitz (I think) gas : chamber and crematorium. It is done in white (or off-white) plaster or : plastic, I'm not sure which. It depicts the environs around a gas : chamber, and takes up something like 5x8 feet. One walks around it and : sees, at one point, a line of people waiting to descend into the anteroom : of the gas chamber. There is no representation of people dying in the gas : chamber, so eager Nazis will have to use their imaginations. When you : walk around the model, there is a corner behind the building in which : guards are shooting a prisoner. There are small plaques describing the : sequence of murder. But this is precisely the model Dr. Faurisson is talking about in the original posting in this thread. I know it's a long way back, but it's worth going back and (re)reading. Ross Vicksell Article 16785 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: 1 Oct 1994 12:17:02 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 36 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <36k21u$mju@newsbf01.news.aol.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes: >As I have have told you before, CODOH's primary mission is, as the name >implies, is the promotion of open debate on the Holocaust. This does not >necessarily involve engaging in the debate. Honestly! You are employed by a group whose purpose is to promote debate in THEORY but not in practice? I find that unnecessarily convoluted. If the subject is worth debating (forensically speaking) it should not need a group dedicated to promoting debate in addition to the group doing the debating. If you want to promote 'debate' why not form a national group to promote forensics? Why specify the Holocaust as a topic? BTW, I don't think that 'The Holocaust' is a debatable subject, forensically speaking. You can only debate a question, not whether or not something happened. It seems to me that the whole idea of Holocaust 'revisionism' is to revise hsitory for the sake of revising--hence claims that this historian or that has engaged in 'revisionism' here and there. It's a theoretical excecise, not a factual one. Which makes me wonder what the theory is? Who or what are you debating? Is it historians in general? I doubt it, since your group not called Committee for Open Debate of History. I can only think of one question in this topic that is truly debatable--have Jews conned the world into thinking there was a Holocaust? Funny, though, that is one topic I don't see promoted very often in so-called revisionist literature. I see, instead, endless picaune nitpicking about how long it takes to kill, or where a document came from...none of that classically debatable. Could it be you and your organization have lost sight of the true purpose of your group? Seems like that to me. Article 16789 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!world!wmcguire From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Message-ID: Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <367u0r$sv1@urvile.MSUS.EDU> <3eiYk0yNUMbJ069yn@world.std.com> <36en9b$bi5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 09:45:47 GMT Lines: 26 In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: //: Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers - J.C Pressac, //: the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989. // //They're blueprints of morgues, not gas chambers. Is this true, Danny? I am having trouble locating the book. What exactly is the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation? Are they an internationally respected publisher of first-class scholarly works, like the Harvard University Press or Oxford University Press? Who funds them? Do they have an agenda or a strong point of view on the Holocaust? I am trying to get a feel for the credibility of this book you mention and its publisher, while I try to locate a copy. Do the blueprints of gas chambers (or morgues?) appear in books issued by reputable scholarly publishers that I would be able to find more easily? Thanks Article 16790 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!world!wmcguire From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps." Message-ID: <7HIZk0yNUASC069yn@world.std.com> Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die References: Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 09:56:39 GMT Lines: 26 In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: // When American and British forces overran western and central //Germany in the spring of 1945, they were followed by troops charged //with discovering and securing any evidence of German war crimes. Among //them was Dr. Charles Larson, one of America's leading forensic //pathologists, who was assigned to the Judge Advocate General's //Department. Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty //other German camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After //his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for three days by U.S. Army //prosecutors.^1 // // Dr. Larson's findings? According to an interview he gave to an //American journalist in 1980, "What we've heard is that six million Jews //were exterminated. Part of that is a hoax."^2 And what part was the //hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was //the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European //Theater,"^3 informed "Wichita Eagle" reporter Jan Floerchinger that //"never was a case of poison gas uncovered."^4 Neither Dr. Larson nor //any other forensic specialist has ever been cited by any Holocaust //historian to substantiate a single case of death by poison gas, whether //Zyklon-B or any other variety. Could the anti-revisionists respond to this specific point? Particularly the last sentence in the passage. Article 16796 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-05.dialip.mich.net!user From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 12:52:13 -0400 Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <366a8a$lc2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <369f9k$gv0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-05.dialip.mich.net codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > There are cyanide traces in all sorts of Auschwitz buildings that weren't > gas chambers. They used the stuff for fumigation of buildings, not just > fumigation of clothes. "All sorts of": okay, name three. Emailed to Mr. Vicksell. -- Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre and everything starts falling into place." - Steve Miller Article 16798 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-05.dialip.mich.net!user From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 12:57:10 -0400 Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-05.dialip.mich.net codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote: > > : I'm not interested in innuendo or speaking in riddles. Whether or > : not a museum built in the 1990s has a model of a gas chamber, has > : absolutely no bearing on what happened in Europe in the 1940s. > : You insinuate that it does. But I'm not interested in insinuation. > > If the number one Holocaust think tank in the world, this side of Yad > Vashem, doesn't know what a gas chamber looks like, who does? Now you're insinuating that, because they didn't put up a full-size replica of a gas chamber for people to walk through, they don't know what the real gas chambers looked like. I'm not interested in insinuation. -- Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre and everything starts falling into place." - Steve Miller Article 16799 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!world!wmcguire From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Message-ID: <9LRZk0yNUAh1069yn@world.std.com> Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <36en9b$bi5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <36ka9n$8dm@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 20:15:21 GMT Lines: 20 In article <36ka9n$8dm@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote: //Wayne McGuire wrote: // //# I am trying to get a feel for the credibility of this book you //# mention and its publisher, while I try to locate a copy. // //Wayne, I suggest that you just read the book. Then, decide for //yourself. Could you just give me a feel for the reputation of the publisher? On a scale of 1 to 10, if 1 is a hardcore propaganda outfit, and 10 is a publisher with an international reputation for the highest objective scholarly standards (like the Harvard University Press or Oxford University Press), how does the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation rank? Who funds it? What other books does it publish? Does it have a specific political agenda? Have any major publishers or works cited the Pressac book as authoritative during the five years since it was originally published? Article 16800 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: Ever been there? In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Fri, 30 Sep 1994 08:20:46 GMT Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 17:12:39 GMT Lines: 15 From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) [responding to me] >: What evidence exists that the Nazis actually used Zyklon-B in gas >: chambers to disinfest clothing or similar or that this was a common or >: ordinary practice? > >The disinfecting chamber at Dachau, for example. That's evidence? -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 16801 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps." In-Reply-To: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Sat, 1 Oct 1994 09:56:39 GMT Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: <7HIZk0yNUASC069yn@world.std.com> Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 17:28:42 GMT Lines: 32 >Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty ^^^^^^ >//other German camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >//his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for three days by U.S. Army >//prosecutors.^1 ... >//"never was a case of poison gas uncovered."^4 Neither Dr. Larson nor From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) >Could the anti-revisionists respond to this specific point? The mass extermination facilities using poison gas were in Poland. You've been taken in again by the revisionists and their sleazy half-truths. No doubt looking up the article will find things taken out of context if not just fabricated. I remember someone looked into this Wichita Eagle "article" and it turned out to be something sleazy like not an article at all but ad space taken out by revisionists. They take out ad space in newspapers and then quote their own ads as if they were legitimate articles appearing in the newspapers. Nice, huh? -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 16802 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!world!wmcguire From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Message-ID: Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die References: <36k21u$mju@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 18:14:20 GMT Lines: 49 In article <36k21u$mju@newsbf01.news.aol.com>, annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666) wrote: //BTW, I don't think that 'The Holocaust' is a debatable subject, //forensically speaking. You can only debate a question, not whether or not //something happened. This is wrong. What the Holocaust was precisely, how it happened, and why it happened, will always be wide open for debate, like any other historical topic. There have been at least three reputable and legitimate revisionist studies that have appeared on the Holocaust in the last decade or two: 1) Paul Johnson's Modern Times 2) Tom Segev's The Seventh Million 3) Arno Mayer's Why Did the Heavens Not Darken? In fact, these are the three works that currently I would most recommend on the Holocaust, in exactly that order. I would be curious to see what three leading books on the Holocaust all the other participants here would recommend. What three books would you recommend? Paul Johnson's Modern Times is not primarily about the Holocaust. But he places Nazism and Fascism in the context of a violent messianic movement--Marxism--which bears a good deal of the responsibility for creating a world in which political mass murder could occur on the scale of the Holocaust and greater. The messianic right imitated many of the methods of the messianic left, and the messianic left worked hard to undermine and destroy the civil order which was a barrier to the rise of demagogues like Hitler. Johnson discusses all of this eloquently. Recently serious historians have raised all sorts of questions about the quality of information and evidence presented at the Nuremberg Trials. Their investigations could lead to major modifications in our understanding of the Holocaust. This is revisionism at its best, and necessary revisionism. I've noticed a tendency among the anti-revisionists to try to totally polarize the debate and to demonize anyone who disagrees with them. Either "the Holocaust" occurred or it didn't, according to their simplistic black and white world. There is a vast spectrum of space between those two positions in which all sorts of interesting discussion and research can and will occur. Article 16803 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-05.dialip.mich.net!user From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps." Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 13:30:32 -0400 Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <7HIZk0yNUASC069yn@world.std.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-05.dialip.mich.net wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote: > codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > > // Dr. Larson's findings? According to an interview he gave to an > //American journalist in 1980, "What we've heard is that six million Jews > //were exterminated. Part of that is a hoax."^2 And what part was the > //hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was > //the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European > //Theater,"^3 informed "Wichita Eagle" reporter Jan Floerchinger that > //"never was a case of poison gas uncovered."^4 Neither Dr. Larson nor > //any other forensic specialist has ever been cited by any Holocaust > //historian to substantiate a single case of death by poison gas, whether > //Zyklon-B or any other variety. > > Could the anti-revisionists respond to this specific point? > Particularly the last sentence in the passage. The point made in that last sentence is that no Holocaust historian has _asked_ a pathologist to "substantiate" any deaths by poison gas. Whatever the hell "substantiate" means. Historians, as you'll recall, deal with history. At the time the camps were being invaded, the people walking around and discovering the ovens and gas chambers and buried corpses and mounds of ash were soldiers. The historians were safe in bed, and wouldn't find out about it all until the newspapers starting printing it. Apparently what this last sentence is suggesting is that the historians, as soon as the gas chambers were found, should have hopped out of bed, called up their "forensic specialist" friends, and run to the camps in the dead of night. The military of course wouldn't have let them in, so they should have tunneled under the fence, found a few corpses that the G.I.s hadn't yet gotten around to giving a decent burial, and begun conducting autopsies, complete with chemical analysis of hemoglobin, to determine that the agent of death really was hydrocyanic acid. Either that, or: it's suggesting that the historians, in say 1954, should have snapped their fingers and said "hey, let's just make doubly sure this Holocaust thing really happened and isn't the greatest hoax of all time, perpetrated by Soviet Jews." Then they would have gone to Belzec and dug up a few bodies and taken them home to work on. A little gruesome, sure, and there's this thing about disturbing the remains of the dead, but why should that stand in the way of the demands of crackpots forty years in the future who would ignore all existing evidence anyway? Does that make it a little clearer, Wayne? -- Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre and everything starts falling into place." - Steve Miller Article 16805 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!misvms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: 29 Sep 1994 08:28 MST Organization: University of Arizona (BPA) Lines: 80 Distribution: world Message-ID: <29SEP199408284163@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> References: <366a8a$lc2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: misvms.bpa.arizona.edu News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50 In article , wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes... >In article , >golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) wrote: > >//1. It is not a "remarkable fact" that there is no reconstruction of a gas >//chamber at the Holocaust Museum. It is merely a fact. > >It strikes me as odd that gas chambers are not prominently >featured at the HMM (if this is indeed the case--I haven't seen >the HMM with my own eyes). I don't know either. One poster here said there was a model of a gas chamber. But if there are few models in the museum it does not strike me that odd. I visited the Gestapo Museum in Berlin (it is built in the burned out basement torutre chambers under the old Gestapo building.) That museum consisted of basically pictures and essays on the walls describing the Gestapo and its victems. There was no reconstruction of an active torture chamber. It never occurred to me until now that there might have been one. The pictures were sufficient. >I've already explained why: the Holocaust story as I learned it >growing up on the popular culture of movies, television, novels, >comic books and the like focused relentlessly on the gas chamber. I must have missed the popular culture you saw. Can you tell me the movies (from the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s) that you saw, the tv shows you saw, the novels you read, and the comics you perused which gave you this story which featured gas chambers? Frankly, I suspect you are exaggerating. >The special diabolical horror of the Holocaust, in the popular >story, was centered on the industrial precision with which the >Nazis annihilated their victims. The clear message of the popular >story is that the Nazis murdered millions of people in assembly >line fashion via sophisticated gas chamber technology. I never quite got that impression from what little I read and saw. Again, can you tell me your media sources for such a statement? >The Holocaust = the gas chamber, in the popular story. Most of what I know about the holocaust comes from reading this conference for the last 18 months. That has never been my impression here. There has always been open discussion of the many different ways prisoners died. >To find gas chambers barely mentioned at the HMM (is this really >the case?) will definitely create some cognitive dissonance for >anyone steeped in the Hollywood version of the Holocaust created >during the fifties, sixties, seventies, and eighties. Huh? Since when does Hollywood dictate history anyway (assuming in the first place they even protrayed this as you assert.) Have historians changed what they say about the holocaust? >Is the HMM itself making something of a quiet revisionist >statement about the role of the gas chambers in the Holocaust? >Is it possible that the role of the gas chamber was slightly >exaggerated in the Hollywood version of the Holocaust? (This is >an actual, not a rhetorical, question. I don't know.) Ah. So you make all sorts of accusations above, and now you say your don't know and are just asking questions. You sure are a disengenuous sod, aren't you? > [anti Marxist hyperbole deleted.] >A statistical question: precisely how many people were killed in >gas chambers, and precisely how were these statistics arrived at? >Is this a subject about which there is no debate among serious >and respectable historians? Data along these lines has been posted in a.r before. I am sure someone who has that data will repost it for you shortly. =========================================================================== daniel david mittleman - danny@arizona.edu - (602) 621-2932 Article 16808 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!world!wmcguire From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Subject: Marxist Holocaust Denial Message-ID: Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die References: Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 18:51:12 GMT Lines: 52 In article , flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) wrote: // And would this apply any less to the Marxists who murdered over // 100 million innocent civilians in this century? // Marxists--especially the dictatorship of the Marxist // intelligentsia--felt hatred and contempt for anybody who was not // one of them. And this attitude was eminently evident in the // founder of Marxism himself--Karl Marx. He was a truly nasty // specimen. // //[Ahhh, I should have guessed, back to your pet peeve.. When you are //faced with a statement that you can not counter easily, you turn to //the good ole marxist hatred of yours.. Hey, everybody, check this out! If you object to the murder of 100 million innocent civilians by Marxists in this century, and the total ruination of many nations--economically, socially, and culturally--for decades, you've got a "pet peeve" and are indulging in "hatred" of Marxism. When six million Jews are murdered by the Nazis, this is a serious matter. When 100 million people are murdered by Marxists, complaining about this fact is a "pet peeve" and a manifestation of "Marxist hatred." Flygare is one of the folks I know well from talk.politics.mideast, where he displayed his militant Zionism at length, with a high ratio of personal abuse to facts, rational arguments, and solid documentation. It's interesting to see that he is also an apologist for Marxism. Actually, Zionism and Marxism are closely linked: most of the early Zionists were passionate Marxists, and a Marxist culture still permeates much of Israeli society--much to its detriment and economic health. I've been gathering together all the Marxist apologetics in this newsgroup from the anti-revisionist side; they provide remarkable support for Eugene Genovese's charge in the Summer Dissent that significant sectors of the left have not come to terms with the horrific damage that has been wrought in this century by leftist political movements. I always love it when die-hard Marxists beg, just give us one more chance! This time we'll get it right! How stupid can you get? How many more tens of millions of lives would you have to take before the truth sank in that Marxism doesn't work in the real world and ruins everything it touches? Article 16809 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-05.dialip.mich.net!user From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 17:44:51 -0400 Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 61 Message-ID: References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <36en9b$bi5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <36ka9n$8dm@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <9LRZk0yNUAh1069yn@world.std.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-05.dialip.mich.net wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote: > Could you just give me a feel for the reputation of the > publisher? I can't help you here. I think the Beate Klarsfeld foundation must be pretty small, because I haven't heard of it except as the publisher of Pressac's most important work. I could be wrong. > Have any major publishers or works cited the Pressac book as > authoritative during the five years since it was originally > published? Um, _Auschwitz: Technique and Operation_ is considered by many to be _the_ best factual refutation of revisionist claims about Auschwitz. It was the first large collection of facts and evidence that was intended to "prove" the gas chambers. And it's hard for me to judge because I haven't ever seen a copy of the book (grumble stupid libraries grumble) -- but the feeling seems to be that, in the few years since it's been published, it has been and still is the definitive refutation. It's often attacked by revisionists, but never very successfully, if such "negative reputation" means anything. Pressac was mentored by Faurisson for a while; Pressac actually believed for quite a while that the gas chambers were a hoax. But everything he kept reading proved otherwise to him, and he changed his mind. Not one of Faurisson's big successes. I wanted to comment on something else you wrote, Wayne, that isn't worth a whole article but needs pointing out: > There have been at least three reputable and legitimate > revisionist studies that have appeared on the Holocaust in the > last decade or two: > > 3) Arno Mayer's Why Did the Heavens Not Darken? The people usually referred to in this forum as "revisionists," Holocaust-deniers, often claim Mayer as one of their own. This is mostly because Mayer makes some questionable claims in the book you cite. One such is that more people died at Auschwitz of starvation, overwork, and disease, than by direct and outright murder. I don't know of any other historians that would agree with that, and Mayer doesn't give figures to back that claim up. He does agree that over a million people died at Auschwitz, the vast majority Jews. Anyway -- Mayer is a legitimate revisionist historian, a scholar. He is thus distinguished from Holocaust-deniers, who call themselves "revisionist scholars," but who dabble in innuendo, ignorance, trickery, and outright lies. Just wanted to make that absolutely clear. -- Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre and everything starts falling into place." - Steve Miller Article 16810 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-05.dialip.mich.net!user From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 14:09:36 -0400 Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 101 Message-ID: References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <367u0r$sv1@urvile.MSUS.EDU> <3eiYk0yNUMbJ069yn@world.std.com> <36en9b$bi5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-05.dialip.mich.net codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > : # I would like to see a blueprint of a gas chamber, with all the > : # appropriate cites. Would you please post it? Thanks. [a reference to one provided] > They're blueprints of morgues, not gas chambers. This is the first trick in the book of denier tactics: circular proof, disguised by smoke and mirrors. They present an outlandish claim, like saying that there are no blueprints of the Nazi gas chambers. Or that no one is able to draw Faurisson a picture of a gas chamber. Or that there are no photographs of gas chambers. They hope that no one calls their bluff and says, "what in the hell are you talking about, of course there are; of course they can; of course there are." And if that happens, they simply fall back on the party line, which is that there are no gas chambers, they were simply morgues. Get it? There are no blueprints of gas chambers, so the logical conclusion is that they never existed. And why are there no blueprints? _Because_ the gas chambers never existed. And they wonder why scholars never take them seriously! OK, Ross, let's take your assertion and run with it. You've just said that Leichenkeller 1, the gas chamber in Krema II, is a morgue. (I have on my hard drive a GIF of the blueprint to that room, but unfortunately I don't have a cite for it; I hope to rectify that within the next week. If you'd like the GIF and/or the cite, just say so.) So, if that room is a morgue: * why does it have a ventilation system? (Don't say "to ventilate out the Zyklon-B used to disinfect it; everyone knows that Zyklon-B is useless for killing bacteria.) * why did Leuchter find Prussian Blue compounds, formed by extended contact with cyanide gas, at the "morgue" at Krema I? (Ditto.) * why do Allied photos of it show holes in the roof? (They were to drop in the Zyklon-B.) * why did the SS guards blow up the "morgues" before fleeing the camp? (They had something to hide.) * why were each of these "morgues" not at the hospital, but rather near an undressing room and a cremation oven? * why did Auschwitz need so many morgues? (Leichenkeller 1 is a huge room, and there's another just like it, plus two more than I think were a little smaller. As Danny Keren wrote just over two years ago:) So, according to our brave "revisionist", Auschwitz had the following: Krematorium II and III, each having one "morgue" measuring 7 X 30 meters, and another "morgue" measuring 8 X 50 meters. Krematoriums IV and V, each having a "morgue" measuring 12 X 48 meters. All in all - "morgues" totaling 2,372 sqaure meters (!!!). A total of 52 crematorium furnaces, which - according to the SS correspondance - could burn 4,756 corpses in 24 working hours. Can anyone in his right mind think that such a number of cremation furnaces and such a huge "morgue" area were planned for anything but mass murder? I think not. But perhaps it is too optimistic to expect an objective analysis of the facts from people who write books like "The Hitler We Loved and Why"? And the response to these questions will be the second trick in the book of denier tactics: a failure to reply to the facts of the matter, and then, some weeks or months later, a repetition of the original assertion. Emailed to Mr. Vicksell. -- Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre and everything starts falling into place." - Steve Miller Article 16811 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!world!wmcguire From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Subject: Marxist Holocaust Denial Message-ID: Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die References: <366a8a$lc2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <29SEP199408284163@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 19:11:23 GMT Lines: 27 In article <29SEP199408284163@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>, dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote: //> [anti Marxist hyperbole deleted.] Here we go again with the weird Marxist apologetics. How in the world can one be hyperbolic about a global political movement which exterminated 100 million innocent civilians and destroyed entire nations? If this is not a serious matter, then how can the lesser damage inflicted by the Nazis be taken seriously? When you put all the numbers of all kinds together, Marxist criminality in its destructive effects was many times more serious than Nazism in this century. Making this assertion is, I suppose, a form of revisionism. But who could possibly deny its truth when you look at all the facts OBJECTIVELY? Eugene Genovese, a former hardcore Marxist insider himself, is right: significant portions of the traditional political left have a screw loose, and have a lot of explaining to do. And you are going to see more and more historians hold their feet to the fire and force them to do that explaining. They will not be allowed to wiggle away. Article 16812 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!world!wmcguire From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps." Message-ID: Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die References: <7HIZk0yNUASC069yn@world.std.com> Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 19:20:03 GMT Lines: 39 In article , k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: //The point made in that last sentence is that no Holocaust historian has //_asked_ a pathologist to "substantiate" any deaths by poison gas. Were any deaths ever substantiated or proven by poison gas? I would have thought that Allied military intelligence, which included medical experts, would have taken some interest in this question. //Apparently what this last sentence is suggesting is that the historians, //as soon as the gas chambers were found.... When were they found and where were they found? What was the reaction of Allied military intelligence? How did they document the finds? // The military of course wouldn't have let them in, //so they should have tunneled under the fence, found a few corpses that //the G.I.s hadn't yet gotten around to giving a decent burial, and begun //conducting autopsies, complete with chemical analysis of hemoglobin, to //determine that the agent of death really was hydrocyanic acid. So then no autopsies were performed? Is this the case? //Does that make it a little clearer, Wayne? A little clearer, but not entirely clear. How long would it take for the evidence of gassing to disappear from the victims? Days? Weeks? Months? As soon as I discovered the gas chambers--and this would be a horrific, stupendous find, one which would grab your full attention--I would have wanted to explore the subject thoroughly. I keep wondering what the take of Allied military intelligence was on all this. Military intelligence is paid to be nosy and curious. Article 16813 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: 1 Oct 1994 18:29:32 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 9 Message-ID: <36k9qc$84t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <3eiYk0yNUMbJ069yn@world.std.com> <36en9b$bi5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Ross Vicksell wrote: # They're blueprints of morgues, not gas chambers. Well, according to everyone who was there, the people were alive when they walked into these "morgues". -Danny Keren. Article 16814 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-05.dialip.mich.net!user From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Goeth's arrest Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 14:20:45 -0400 Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <36de93$gs4@access4.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-05.dialip.mich.net codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > : What bizarre delusions these revisionists have about their > : influence. Spielberg gave only an indirect mention of the gas chambers. > : I have no idea if Spielberg even knows that revisionists exist. The > : movie certainly has nothing to do with attempting to prove the existence > : of gas chambers. > > What does? Well, for starters, things discussed every day here on alt.revisionism. Himmler's Poznan speech, to name the example that I'm trying to get everyone to talk about. I've been trying for nearly the last five months. Greg Raven ignored it for four months, gave a weak, cursory overview of a reply, and when that reply was demolished, he vanished off the net. When I asked _you_ to talk about it privately, Mr. Vicksell, you said you didn't want to get into it. Mr. Smith is ignoring it. Mr. Berg ignored it. Landpost has been the only one to dive in, and of course we all have seen how well he did. The only thing he could do was insist that "Ausrottung" means something other than "extermination," despite the evidence to the contrary of many dictionary excerpts posted, and all the native German speakers who saw fit to comment. I've _repeatedly_ made the offer, for the last two years, that I'll discuss any single topic with any revisionist. The only restrictions are that the topic has to be narrow enough to allow focused discussion (certainly I won't limit it to one _document_ as Raven tried to do), and it has to be the topic that the revisionist feels best makes the case that the Holocaust never happened. No one has taken me up on it. No revisionist has offered. Landpost said he would but then backed down. So I guess alt.revisionism certainly has nothing to do with attempting to prove the _nonexistence_ of gas chambers. The question is: What does? -- Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre and everything starts falling into place." - Steve Miller Article 16817 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: 1 Oct 1994 18:37:43 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 34 Message-ID: <36ka9n$8dm@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <36en9b$bi5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Wayne McGuire wrote: ## They're blueprints of morgues, not gas chambers. # Is this true, Danny? No. # I am having trouble locating the book. Harvard must have a copy somewhere - Brown U. has one. # I am trying to get a feel for the credibility of this book you # mention and its publisher, while I try to locate a copy. Wayne, I suggest that you just read the book. Then, decide for yourself. The book is not very easy to read, I know. But it has a large collection of photographs and documents of the SS building department at Auschwitz. If you want to wait, I heard there's a new book coming out, written by Prof. Van-Pelt. Unfortunately, I don't know who publishes it and if it appeared already. # Do the blueprints of gas chambers (or morgues?) appear in books # issued by reputable scholarly publishers that I would be able to # find more easily? Some of them do, but Pressac contains the largest number. -Danny Keren. Article 16818 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-05.dialip.mich.net!user From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps." Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 17:57:22 -0400 Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <7HIZk0yNUASC069yn@world.std.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-05.dialip.mich.net wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote: > Were any deaths ever substantiated or proven by poison gas? I > would have thought that Allied military intelligence, which > included medical experts, would have taken some interest in this > question. Define "substantiated or proven." Hell yes, lots of deaths have been substantiated and proven. About a million at Auschwitz, two million at the Reinhard camps. The history section of your local library is full of proof and substantiation. But you appear to be looking for something more specific. What would satisfy you? Autopsies? You can't autopsy ashes. [re the gas chambers] > When were they found and where were they found? What was the > reaction of Allied military intelligence? How did they document > the finds? I've no idea. > So then no autopsies were performed? Is this the case? Look, no offense, Wayne, but have you considered looking up the answers to these questions yourself? > How long would it take for the evidence of gassing to disappear > from the victims? Days? Weeks? Months? Hours. The Auschwitz victims were dragged to the cremation ovens after they died. You can't do autopsies on piles of ashes, remember? (I should have pointed that out in my first article, I suppose.) I believe that there are still mass graves of uncremated bodies at one or more Reinhard camps, though the Nazis did dig up and incinerate many mass graves. Those were the only other camps to employ gassing on a mass scale. They used CO, however, a different gas. Suffice it to say that I'd be very, very surprised if either (a) any chemical traces of CO remained 50 years later, or (b) the Allies had gotten a chance to check out the camps before they were abandoned in 1943. -- Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre and everything starts falling into place." - Steve Miller Article 16820 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps." Date: 1 Oct 1994 18:56:53 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 30 Message-ID: <36kbdl$99d@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: <7HIZk0yNUASC069yn@world.std.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Wayne McGuire wrote: # How long would it take for the evidence of gassing to disappear # from the victims? Days? Weeks? Months? The corpses of the people taken out from the gas chambers were usually cremated, or burned, at once. It was different in the "Einsatz Reinhard" camps, where they were burned much later. I have a GIF file of a photograph taken in Maidanek after the liberation, showing a pile of burned corpses right outside the crematorium. These people may have been gassed. I doubt anyone autopsied their corpses, and what such an autopsy would prove, after they were burned. Wayne, I think that what confuses you is that you think that the tens-of-thousand of corpses at Bergen-Belsen and other camps inside the "Old Reich" are corpses of people who were gassed. This is false. These people were starved to death or died from epidemics. Again, there were not many gas chambers inside the "Old Reich" camps and not many people were gassed in them. The mass gassing took place in the death camps the SS built in nazi-occupied Poland. -Danny Keren. Article 16821 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!kmcvay From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) Subject: Vicksell's astounding leap of logic.. References: Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac Message-ID: <1994Oct02.222429.6914@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> Date: Sun, 02 Oct 94 22:24:29 GMT In article codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes: >: I'm not interested in innuendo or speaking in riddles. Whether or >: not a museum built in the 1990s has a model of a gas chamber, has >: absolutely no bearing on what happened in Europe in the 1940s. >: You insinuate that it does. But I'm not interested in insinuation. >If the number one Holocaust think tank in the world, this side of Yad >Vashem, doesn't know what a gas chamber looks like, who does? I'm curious, Ross... how do you infer, from this apparent lack of model (although such a model apparently does exist, from what I read here), that the museum folks don't "..know what a gas chamber looks like?" I don't have a model of a Covette in my house, Ross, but I certainly know what one looks like. -- /^\__/^\ The Old Frog's Almanac / @ @ \ A Salute to That Old Frog Himse'f, Ryugen Fisher ( ) Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada \ ~~~~ / Article 16828 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!news.Stanford.EDU!rjg From: rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU (Rich Green) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: 2 Oct 1994 00:23:44 GMT Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA Lines: 23 Message-ID: <36kuig$ci8@nntp.Stanford.EDU> References: <366a8a$lc2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <369hdg$2l2@prime.mdata.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: d31rz2.stanford.edu Originator: rjg@leland.Stanford.EDU In article <369hdg$2l2@prime.mdata.fi>, Kari Nenonen wrote: > >You seem to swallow every bait the revisionists throw in the lake. >I don't know why there is no representation of a gas chamber in the >HMM (I have never been there) but I can imagine many explanations. >First, it would take a lot of room. Second, it would only be a >representation, so it would not prove anything. Third, it would only >be an emty room with emty showerheads: nothing much to see. Fourth, if >I would make a representation, I would want to make the whole set: >dressingrooms, gas chambers and crematoriums - only that would serve >the purpose (that is to show how it happened). > Actually, that's what they did; only it's in miniature. Rich -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Richard James Green Department of Chemistry rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU Stanford University 415-723-4332 Stanford, CA 94305-5080 Article 16829 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!golux.pr.mcs.net!user From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 20:12:16 -0600 Organization: MCSNet Services Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote: > > : Ross, you are the regional director for an organization called the > : Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust. > > : Will you debate any topic of substance about the Holocaust, with me > : or anyone else? > > As I have have told you before, CODOH's primary mission is, as the name > implies, is the promotion of open debate on the Holocaust. This does not > necessarily involve engaging in the debate. I'm thinking of putting together a group called CODORVSMOLC, the Committee for Open Debate On Ross Vicksell's Molestation Of Little Children. I don't actually want to engage in any such debate, I don't want to provide any evidence that it happened or didn't happen. I just want to get people talking about it. How does that sound to you, Ross? > : I'm not interested in innuendo or speaking in riddles. Whether or > : not a museum built in the 1990s has a model of a gas chamber, has > : absolutely no bearing on what happened in Europe in the 1940s. > : You insinuate that it does. But I'm not interested in insinuation. > > If the number one Holocaust think tank in the world, this side of Yad > Vashem, doesn't know what a gas chamber looks like, who does? What makes you think the Museum doesn't know what a gas chamber looks like? Emailed to Mr. Vicksell. -- D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup. golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms. -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_ Article 16830 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!ddsw1!golux.pr.mcs.net!user From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 20:15:02 -0600 Organization: MCSNet Services Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <366a8a$lc2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net > : In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross > : Vicksell) wrote: > > : > I can't help but be impressed by how authoritatively our worthy opponents > : > can discuss the HMM, when none of them have ever been there. The only one > : > who has, to my knowledge, is Mike Stein, and he hasn't contributed to this > : > thread yet. > : > [and I wrote] > : I've been there. What would you like me to say about it? > > That they have a nice model of a gas chamber tucked away somewhere, > that Bradley Smith, Robert Faurisson and myself somehow missed, and that > Michael Berenbaum doesn't know about. They do have a model. What they don't have is a full-scale walk-through replica. Surely you didn't miss the scale model of the gas chamber, crematorium and grounds? -- D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup. golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms. -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_ Article 16831 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!golux.pr.mcs.net!user From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 20:19:38 -0600 Organization: MCSNet Services Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device (golux@mcs.com) wrote: > : In article , wmcguire@world.std.com > : (Wayne McGuire) wrote: > > : In fact, there is a small-scale model of an Auschwitz (I think) gas > : chamber and crematorium. It is done in white (or off-white) plaster or > : plastic, I'm not sure which. It depicts the environs around a gas > : chamber, and takes up something like 5x8 feet. One walks around it and > : sees, at one point, a line of people waiting to descend into the anteroom > : of the gas chamber. There is no representation of people dying in the gas > : chamber, so eager Nazis will have to use their imaginations. When you > : walk around the model, there is a corner behind the building in which > : guards are shooting a prisoner. There are small plaques describing the > : sequence of murder. > > But this is precisely the model Dr. Faurisson is talking about in the > original posting in this thread. I know it's a long way back, but it's > worth going back and (re)reading. I don't have the original posting, and I don't think my newsreader holds things very long. What did Faurisson say about this model? That it wasn't authentic? That he couldn't walk through it? That it didn't prove anything? Why don't you reprint it? -- D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup. golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms. -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_ Article 16833 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!ddsw1!golux.pr.mcs.net!user From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 20:28:30 -0600 Organization: MCSNet Services Lines: 74 Message-ID: References: <36k21u$mju@newsbf01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net In article , wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote: > In article <36k21u$mju@newsbf01.news.aol.com>, annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666) wrote: > > //BTW, I don't think that 'The Holocaust' is a debatable subject, > //forensically speaking. You can only debate a question, not whether or not > //something happened. > > This is wrong. What the Holocaust was precisely, how it happened, > and why it happened, will always be wide open for debate, like > any other historical topic. But THAT it happened is not. Just as THAT World War II, the Bataan Death March, the moon landing, and any other historical event happened is not open to "debate." > There have been at least three reputable and legitimate > revisionist studies that have appeared on the Holocaust in the > last decade or two: > > 1) Paul Johnson's Modern Times > > 2) Tom Segev's The Seventh Million > > 3) Arno Mayer's Why Did the Heavens Not Darken? In what ways are these "revisionist studies" of the Holocaust? > In fact, these are the three works that currently I would most > recommend on the Holocaust, in exactly that order. Yes, you have often expressed your admiration for these titles. Why? What is it about them -- as compared with all the other histories of the Holocaust that you must have read -- that makes them stand out so? > I would be curious to see what three leading books on the > Holocaust all the other participants here would recommend. > What three books would you recommend? Well, I'm only a little way into Leni Yahil's The Holocaust: The Fate of European Jewry. Unfortunately, I have been unable to get far into it as of yet. > Paul Johnson's Modern Times is not primarily about the Holocaust. > But he places Nazism and Fascism in the context of a violent > messianic movement--Marxism--which bears a good deal of the > responsibility for creating a world in which political mass > murder could occur on the scale of the Holocaust and greater. The > messianic right imitated many of the methods of the messianic > left, and the messianic left worked hard to undermine and destroy > the civil order which was a barrier to the rise of demagogues > like Hitler. Johnson discusses all of this eloquently. Perhaps. But in what way was the Holocaust "political mass murder"? It was motivated by the Nazi's bogus biological/racial theory, not by the Nazis' bogus political theory. I find it interesting that you feel so certain that Johnson's theory is correct -- that Marxism's crimes led to the rise of Nazism -- and then elsewhere link Marxism to Judaism (or at least to Jews). One could think you were working on fixing the blame for the rise of Nazism on the Jews. Is this your ultimate point? If so, say it. And then answer my question from another thread: Why do so many "revisionists" and Nazi apologists seek to place the blame for the crimes of Nazi Germany on the Jews? -- D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup. golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms. -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_ Article 16841 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust a Religion? Date: 1 Oct 1994 23:09:02 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 20 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes: re the Holocaust being a "religion:" perhaps for some it is. Example: here in this newsgroup McCarthy has referred to Robert Faurisson as "evil." Barry Shein has written that I am "evil." By and large, Faurisson and I are "evil" because we express doubt about the "truth" of some of the "teachings" on the "Holocaust." When we laugh at some of those teachings, it sounds like blasphemy to those who are true believers. "Evil" is a word true believers employ for those who disagree about matters of interest to the religion or cult to which the true believer belongs. There's something there worth talking about. -- Bradley Smith Article 16843 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!ames!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!netcomsv!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 03:07:57 GMT Lines: 26 Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote: : codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: : > Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote: : > : > : I'm not interested in innuendo or speaking in riddles. Whether or : > : not a museum built in the 1990s has a model of a gas chamber, has : > : absolutely no bearing on what happened in Europe in the 1940s. : > : You insinuate that it does. But I'm not interested in insinuation. : > : > If the number one Holocaust think tank in the world, this side of Yad : > Vashem, doesn't know what a gas chamber looks like, who does? : Now you're insinuating that, because they didn't put up a full-size : replica of a gas chamber for people to walk through, they don't know : what the real gas chambers looked like. : I'm not interested in insinuation. This "full-size" stuff is purely your concoction. We're just looking for a credible model. : -- : Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy : "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre : and everything starts falling into place." - Steve Miller Article 16847 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sgiblab!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!netcomsv!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: More whore houses Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 04:41:33 GMT Lines: 13 During the summer of 1943, Himmler ordered the setting up of brothels in concentration camps called Sonderbau (special building). His aim was to solve the sexual problem, combat homosexual practices, and increase the worker's output ... In mid-December there were thirteen of these women in Dachau." from Dachau: 1933-45, The Official History, by Paul Berben, page 7 Ross Vicksell Article 16848 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!eff!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!netcomsv!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 04:55:32 GMT Lines: 67 Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote: : wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote: : > Could you just give me a feel for the reputation of the : > publisher? : I can't help you here. I think the Beate Klarsfeld foundation FYI, Beate Klarsfeld is the self-hating German who was responsible for the destruction of Fred Leuchter's business. She was right there in the courtroom in Malden, leading the charge. : must be pretty small, because I haven't heard of it except as : the publisher of Pressac's most important work. I could be : wrong. : > Have any major publishers or works cited the Pressac book as : > authoritative during the five years since it was originally : > published? : Um, _Auschwitz: Technique and Operation_ is considered by many : to be _the_ best factual refutation of revisionist claims about : Auschwitz. It was the first large collection of facts and : evidence that was intended to "prove" the gas chambers. And : it's hard for me to judge because I haven't ever seen a copy of : the book (grumble stupid libraries grumble) -- but the feeling : seems to be that, in the few years since it's been published, : it has been and still is the definitive refutation. : It's often attacked by revisionists, but never very successfully, : if such "negative reputation" means anything. : Pressac was mentored by Faurisson for a while; Pressac actually : believed for quite a while that the gas chambers were a hoax. : But everything he kept reading proved otherwise to him, and he : changed his mind. Not one of Faurisson's big successes. : I wanted to comment on something else you wrote, Wayne, that : isn't worth a whole article but needs pointing out: : > There have been at least three reputable and legitimate : > revisionist studies that have appeared on the Holocaust in the : > last decade or two: : > : > 3) Arno Mayer's Why Did the Heavens Not Darken? : The people usually referred to in this forum as "revisionists," : Holocaust-deniers, often claim Mayer as one of their own. This : is mostly because Mayer makes some questionable claims in the : book you cite. One such is that more people died at Auschwitz : of starvation, overwork, and disease, than by direct and outright : murder. I don't know of any other historians that would agree : with that, and Mayer doesn't give figures to back that claim up. : He does agree that over a million people died at Auschwitz, : the vast majority Jews. : Anyway -- Mayer is a legitimate revisionist historian, a scholar. : He is thus distinguished from Holocaust-deniers, who call : themselves "revisionist scholars," but who dabble in innuendo, : ignorance, trickery, and outright lies. : Just wanted to make that absolutely clear. : -- : Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy : "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre : and everything starts falling into place." - Steve Miller Article 16851 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: 2 Oct 1994 06:42:47 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 14 Message-ID: <36lkp7$4r8@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Ross Vicksell wrote: # FYI, Beate Klarsfeld is the self-hating German Good old Vicksell, always good for a laugh. "Self-hating German"? # who was responsible for the # destruction of Fred Leuchter's business. She was right there in the # courtroom in Malden, leading the charge. What's so bad about exposing a charlatan and a liar for what he is? -Danny Keren. Article 16852 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: More whore houses Date: 2 Oct 1994 06:51:49 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 39 Message-ID: <36lla5$54a@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Ross Vicksell wrote: # During the summer of 1943, Himmler ordered the setting up of brothels in # concentration camps called Sonderbau (special building). His aim # was to solve the sexual problem, combat homosexual practices, and # increase the worker's output ... In mid-December there were thirteen of # these women in Dachau." What does this exactly prove? It is interesting, BTW, to see the following speech from Himmler. I take it that Vicksell agrees that everything else about the official history of Dachau is correct? The medical experiments, for instance? Extract from Himmler's address to party comrades, September 7 1940 [Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., Vol. IV, p. 1140] ------------------------------------------------------------------ If any Pole has any sexual dealing with a German woman, and by this I mean sexual intercourse, then the man will be hanged right in front of his camp. Then the others will not do it. Besides, provisions will be made that a sufficient number of Polish women and girls will come along as well so that a necessity of this kind is out of the question. The women will be brought before the courts without mercy, and where the facts are not sufficiently proved - such borderline cases always happen - they will be sent to a concentration camp. This we must do, unless these one million Poles and those hundreds of thousands of workers of alien blood are to inflict untold damage on the German blood. Philosophizing is of no avail in this case. It would be better if we did not have them at all - we all know that - but we need them. -Danny Keren. Article 16857 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!news.intercon.com!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: 2 Oct 1994 03:27:56 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 26 Message-ID: <36lnds$bl8@access3.digex.net> References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <36en9b$bi5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net In article , Jamie McCarthy wrote: >So, if that room is a morgue: > >[several questions omitted] You forgot two other pertinent questions (though I'm sure the revisionists consider them impertinent): * Why does a morgue have a gas-tight door with a metal grille protecting the peephole from the inside of the room? (Because the dead bodies in the "morgue" weren't dead when they entered the room, and might break out the peephole once they figure out the fate in store for them.) * Why did Bischoff, the head of the Auschwitz Construction Administration, refer to it as a "Vergasungskeller" (gassing cellar) rather than a "Leichenkeller" (corpse cellar, or morgue) in a letter to Gen. Kammler? (Because Kammler was in on the secret, and there was no need to conceal the truth from him.) -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 16859 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!news.intercon.com!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: More whore houses Date: 2 Oct 1994 03:32:08 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 15 Message-ID: <36lnlo$bpk@access3.digex.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net In article , Ross Vicksell wrote: >During the summer of 1943, Himmler ordered the setting up of brothels in >concentration camps called Sonderbau (special building).... > from > > Dachau: 1933-45, The Official History, by Paul Berben, page 7 I think I'm going to faint. Ross actually provided a reference with a page number. I shall definitely check it out. -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 16862 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Vicksell's Lies and Misinformation (was: Re: Ike and the "Death C Date: 2 Oct 1994 08:05:35 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 21 Message-ID: <36lpkf$77v@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Keywords: Eisenhower Vicksell is trying to portray the concentration camps inside the "Old Reich" (Germany proper and Austria) as real fun places, where the SS took good care of the prisoners, gave them good food, supplied them with whores etc. Some time ago, the "revisionists" themselves posted a letter from Dr. Martin Broszat, from the "Institute for Contemporary History" in Munich, published in a German newspaper. According to Dr. Broszat, official SS statistics shows that 111,000 people died in the "Old Reich" camps in *one year* (between July 1942 and June 1943)!! It is important to note that these camps were not mass extermination camps like Auschwitz and Treblinka, but what are commonly called "concentration camps". There was no mass gassing in them, and some of them didn't even have gas chambers. Nontheless, the SS managed to kill 111,000 people in these camps during a single year. Something to think about. -Danny Keren. Article 16865 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!eff!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.intercon.com!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Autopsies on ashes Date: 2 Oct 1994 04:18:25 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 16 Message-ID: <36lqch$cm0@access3.digex.net> References: <7HIZk0yNUASC069yn@world.std.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net In article , Wayne McGuire wrote: >So then no autopsies were performed? Is this the case? The victims were cremated. How does one perform an autopsy on ashes? >How long would it take for the evidence of gassing to disappear >from the victims? Days? Weeks? Months? Wrong question. How long does it take for the victim to disapper up the chimney? Answer: about an hour. -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 16871 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: 2 Oct 1994 11:14:02 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 26 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <36minq$and@newsbf01.news.aol.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes: : > If the number one Holocaust think tank in the world, this side of Yad : > Vashem, doesn't know what a gas chamber looks like, who does? To which Mr. Mccarthy responded: : Now you're insinuating that, because they didn't put up a full-size : replica of a gas chamber for people to walk through, they don't know : what the real gas chambers looked like. To which you responded: >>This "full-size" stuff is purely your concoction. We're just looking for >>a credible model. When you say you want to see a 'credible model' perhaps you should specify which gas chamber you want a model of. At Aushwitz alone there was a lot of variety. There were the complex of Kremas at Birkenau, the small original chamber at Auschwitz I and the houses remodeled to serve as backup utility homicide centers. Then you've got the small chambers at Maidenek, the little one at Stutthoff and of course the CO2 facitlites, both portable and permanent. I'm not sure what use you'd have for a model, though--anyone can make a model. So what? Article 16872 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: 2 Oct 1994 11:20:05 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 15 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <36mj35$aqc@newsbf01.news.aol.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes: >FYI, Beate Klarsfeld is the self-hating German who was responsible for the >destruction of Fred Leuchter's business. She was right there in the >courtroom in Malden, leading the charge. "Self-hating German" seems a bit mean-spirited, don't you think. She's a woman who recognized that what the Nazis did was deplorable. Do you expect her to go around singing "Deutschland Uber Alles? RE: Mr. Leuchter, I think you give her too much credit. Mr. Luechter had a hand in destroying his own business when he hung out a shingle without legal qualifications. Besides, I hear he isn't too badly these days. Article 16885 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!landpost_ppp.clark.net!user From: landpost@clark.net Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Autopsies on ashes Date: 2 Oct 1994 18:40:27 GMT Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <7HIZk0yNUASC069yn@world.std.com> <36lqch$cm0@access3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: landpost_ppp.clark.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In article <36lqch$cm0@access3.digex.net>, mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: > In article , > Wayne McGuire wrote: > >So then no autopsies were performed? Is this the case? > > The victims were cremated. How does one perform an autopsy on ashes? > > > >How long would it take for the evidence of gassing to disappear > >from the victims? Days? Weeks? Months? > > Wrong question. How long does it take for the victim to disapper up > the chimney? Answer: about an hour. > -- > Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. > POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official > Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. ------------------------- Where are the millions of pounds of "holy" remains", you pimply-faced, atrophied, weasel ??????????????? You mean no excavations have been done around Auschwitz, how convenient. Tim McCarthy landpost@clark.net Article 16888 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!decwrl!netcomsv!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <36minq$and@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 18:35:21 GMT Lines: 29 AnnyA666 (annya666@aol.com) wrote: : In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross : Vicksell) writes: : : : > If the number one Holocaust think tank in the world, this side of Yad : : > Vashem, doesn't know what a gas chamber looks like, who does? : To which Mr. Mccarthy responded: : : Now you're insinuating that, because they didn't put up a full-size : : replica of a gas chamber for people to walk through, they don't know : : what the real gas chambers looked like. : To which you responded: : >>This "full-size" stuff is purely your concoction. We're just looking : for : >>a credible model. : When you say you want to see a 'credible model' perhaps you should specify : which gas chamber you want a model of. At Aushwitz alone there was a lot : of variety. There were the complex of Kremas at Birkenau, the small : original chamber at Auschwitz I and the houses remodeled to serve as : backup utility homicide centers. Then you've got the small chambers at : Maidenek, the little one at Stutthoff and of course the CO2 facitlites, : both portable and permanent. : I'm not sure what use you'd have for a model, though--anyone can make a : model. So what? The ket word is "credible." Article 16892 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!decwrl!netcomsv!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <36mj35$aqc@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 18:48:53 GMT Lines: 30 AnnyA666 (annya666@aol.com) wrote: : In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross : Vicksell) writes: : >FYI, Beate Klarsfeld is the self-hating German who was responsible for : the : >destruction of Fred Leuchter's business. She was right there in the : >courtroom in Malden, leading the charge. : "Self-hating German" seems a bit mean-spirited, don't you think. She's a : woman who recognized that what the Nazis did was deplorable. Do you : expect her to go around singing "Deutschland Uber Alles? : RE: Mr. Leuchter, I think you give her too much credit. Mr. Luechter had a : hand in destroying his own business when he hung out a shingle without : legal qualifications. Fred never attempted to hide the fact that he had no engineering degree or license. In fact it came up repeatedly in court hearings. Nevertheless, for ten years, the prisons that did business with him were perfectly satisfied with the execution equipment he sold to them and maintained for them. Then came his trip to Poland and everything went sour. Coincidence, no doubt. : Besides, I hear he isn't too badly these days. Where did you hear that? Ross Vicksell Article 16893 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust a Religion? In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 1 Oct 1994 23:09:02 -0400 Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 19:29:17 GMT Lines: 24 From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS) >By and large, Faurisson and I are "evil" because we express doubt about >the "truth" of some of the "teachings" on the "Holocaust." Oh bullshit. You're "evil" because your intention are evil. You willfully ignore crushing evidence and speak not like someone interested in the truth but rather someone who's trying to hoodwink and deceive people. It's so damn obvious, I don't know why you think you have anyone fooled other than you must also possess the mind of a child. Adults don't fall for this transparent crap, Smith. You're not even very good at it. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 16894 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum In-Reply-To: annya666@aol.com's message of 2 Oct 1994 11:14:02 -0400 Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: <36minq$and@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 19:36:18 GMT Lines: 37 From: annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666) [responding to Bradley Smith] >>This "full-size" stuff is purely your concoction. We're just looking for >>a credible model. >I'm not sure what use you'd have for a model, though--anyone can make a >model. So what? That's the point, he's being wholly disingenuous. His mind wouldn't be changed one bit by a model. He just thinks it sounds good for the moment until he can think of something else to say. He's temporizing. Since the evidence completely refutes everything he believes there's not much left but to nip at the heels of crazy and unrelated crap like why isn't there a model of a gas chamber at the holocaust museum built to his personal satisfaction or whether or not a bucket can dance the samba or did Curtis Whiteway tell the truth (as if there aren't a zillion other completely reliable sources, but he doesn't want to deal with those, he wants to harp on the few he believes cannot be quite proven as genuine, tho he hasn't disproven them either.) This has nothing to do with the truth, it has to do with Smith thinking he's being clever. As I've said before, transparent crap. And then he moans no one takes him seriously. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 16895 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Autopsies on ashes Date: 2 Oct 1994 19:34:27 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 26 Message-ID: <36n203$t8g@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: <36lqch$cm0@access3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu wrote: [To Mike Stein] # Where are the millions of pounds of "holy" remains", you pimply-faced, # atrophied, weasel ??????????????? Oh really, "landpost". We already know you're a "revisionist scholar". You don't have to keep proving this to us. # You mean no excavations have been done around Auschwitz, how # convenient. I understand that the Poles discovered large quantities of ash and human remains in Treblinka. In Auschwitz, According to Reitlinger's "The Final Solution" (1968 edition, p. 161), the ash was dumped into the Sola river. Also, when one does the calculation, it turns out that ashes - even from a huge number of corpses - take up a surprisingly small volume. To be more exact, we'll have to know the weight of a given volume of ash (I apologize for going into these gory details). -Danny Keren. Article 16899 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.intercon.com!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: What is physical evidence of a gas chamber, then? Date: 2 Oct 1994 15:31:40 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 28 Message-ID: <36n1qs$mo8@access3.digex.net> References: <369f9k$gv0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net In article , Ross Vicksell wrote: >There are cyanide traces in all sorts of Auschwitz buildings that weren't >gas chambers. They used the stuff for fumigation of buildings, not just >fumigation of clothes. You have previously complained there is no physical evidence of a gas chamber. If a room with a gas-tight door, an air extraction system, "introduction devices," and cyanide traces, referred to in an official letter as a "Vergasungskeller" by the person in charge of building it, is still not physical evidence of a gas chamber, please tell me what could POSSIBLY be such "physical evience?" A body dead of cyanide poisoning? I could point out that's not physical evidence of a gas chamber either - after all, the poor unfortunate might just have found a Zyklon can sitting around, opened it and died, right? So even an autopsy report showing death by cyanide doesn't prove that the person inhaled the cyanide in a "gas chamber." Ross, please tell me what you would accept as physical evidence of a gas chamber. Your complaint about the lack of such indicates that you think such evidence is theoretically possible, yet you have rejected everything that has been introduced so far. -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 16900 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.intercon.com!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Self-hating people Date: 2 Oct 1994 15:38:57 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 23 Message-ID: <36n28h$mvf@access3.digex.net> References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net In article , Ross Vicksell wrote: >FYI, Beate Klarsfeld is the self-hating German Ross, did you get your psychology degree from the same place Bradley Smith got his? Please provide your evidence that Beate Klarsfeld is "self-hating." Elsewhere you posted information about a talk by Victor Ostrovsky about a supposed plot by the Mossad to murder George Bush. Leaving aside for the moment the question of what that has to do with whether or not there was a Nazi plan to exterminate Jews, would you similarly characterize Ostrovsky as a "self-hating Jew?" Why or why not? Also, I would point out that Ostrovsky is merely testimony. Do you believe that there is now sufficient proof of a Mossad plot to assassinate Bush? If so, what documents or physical evidence did Ostrovsky show you to prove to you beyond a reasonable doubt that there was such a plot? -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 16901 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!news.intercon.com!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Goeth's arrest Date: 2 Oct 1994 15:49:29 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 32 Message-ID: <36n2s9$n6m@access3.digex.net> References: <36de93$gs4@access4.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net In article , Jamie McCarthy wrote: >codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: >>mstein@access.digex.net (Mike Stein) wrote: > >> : What bizarre delusions these revisionists have about their >> : influence. Spielberg gave only an indirect mention of the gas chambers. >> : I have no idea if Spielberg even knows that revisionists exist. >> : The movie certainly has nothing to do with attempting to prove the >> : existence of gas chambers. >> >> What does? > >Well, for starters, things discussed every day here on alt.revisionism. > >Himmler's Poznan speech, to name the example that I'm trying to get >everyone to talk about. Um, no - Himmler's Poznan speech really only shows a plan or policy to exterminate the Jews. Raven's right in that it doesn't mention gas chambers as a specific means to carry out that policy. As far as something which *does*, try Pressac, Jean-Claude: "Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers." You might in particular check out the photographically-reproduced letter from Bischoff to Kammler which mentions the "Vergasungskeller." As Bradley Smith might have said, I can easily see how he got that word confused with "Leichenkeller," since the two words sound so much alike. -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 16902 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: More whore houses In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Sun, 2 Oct 1994 04:41:33 GMT Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 19:58:09 GMT Lines: 42 From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) >During the summer of 1943, Himmler ordered the setting up of brothels in >concentration camps called Sonderbau (special building). His aim >was to solve the sexual problem, combat homosexual practices, and >increase the worker's output ... In mid-December there were thirteen of >these women in Dachau." > > from > > Dachau: 1933-45, The Official History, by Paul Berben, page 7 Well, here you have an interesting claim from a holocaust-denier. So how does that gibe with, for example, Mr Doubting Thomas' insistence that the Nazi Army was run in a idyllically professional manner? How many other professional armies have erected brothels? Tolerated them no doubt, but *erected* them? Even if the claim were true this is certainly a two-edged sword that speaks volumes on what sick and twisted creeps these Nazis were. The term *brothel* implies the women were paid for what they did. How come I get the feeling this wasn't the case, anyone want to claim otherwise? Swell, they couldn't just kill and starve the prisoners, they forced the women into sexual slavery also. Anything else Mr Vicksell would like to say in the Nazis' defense? What a swell bunch of guys, real men...tatooing little children, forcing women into sexual slavery, real heros... -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 16906 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!yale!news2.near.net!news.delphi.com!usenet From: declan@delphi.com Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps." Date: Sun, 2 Oct 94 16:37:25 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 5 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com X-To: Ross Vicksell For interesting comments of the thousands upon thousands of Jewish refugees in Germany in 1945, take a look at the Patton Diaries. LTM Article 16925 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: 2 Oct 1994 19:05:09 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 16 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <36neb5$hbp@newsbf01.news.aol.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes in response to: :: ...We're just looking for a credible model. My response: : I'm not sure what use you'd have for a model, though--anyone can make a : model. So what? Mr. Codfish: >>The ket word is "credible." I appreciate your brevity, Mr. Codfish, but you left a great deal unsaid. Evaluating credibility is based on defined criteria. What are yours? And once again I'll ask, what use would you have for a 'credible model'--just to prove it can be done? Or so you can dispute the credibility? Article 16926 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: 2 Oct 1994 19:14:01 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 33 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <36nerp$hf8@newsbf01.news.aol.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes respondng to this thread:: AnnyA666 (annya666@aol.com) wrote: : RE: Mr. Leuchter, I think you give her too much credit. Mr. Luechter had a : hand in destroying his own business when he hung out a shingle without : legal qualifications. Mr. Codfish responded: >>Fred never attempted to hide the fact that he had no engineering degree or >>license. In fact it came up repeatedly in court hearings. Nevertheless, >>for ten years, the prisons that did business with him were perfectly >>satisfied with the execution equipment he sold to them and maintained for >>them. Then came his trip to Poland and everything went sour. Coincidence, >>no doubt. My understanding is that Fred didn't do all that much business with prisons, all in all. After all, he exaggerated his experience in the Zundel trial and was pretty evenly humiliated when it was discovered that he had not done business with all those he listed as clients. Are you implying that he notified his prospective clients that he was not actually an engineer before providing service? I find that hard to believe. The field of execution specialist may be extremely specialized, but I doubt the prison systems would have to dig that deep into the bottom of the barrel... Article 16930 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!news.eunet.fi!prime.mdata.fi!mits.mdata.fi!kauhunen From: kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Autopsies on ashes Date: 3 Oct 1994 01:48:47 GMT Organization: Mits BBS, Helsinki, Finland (40+ Nodes +358-0-4582066) Lines: 19 Message-ID: <36nntv$bnd@prime.mdata.fi> References: <36lqch$cm0@access3.digex.net> <36n203$t8g@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: mits.mdata.fi In article <36n203$t8g@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, Danny Keren wrote: >I understand that the Poles discovered large quantities of ash and >human remains in Treblinka. In Auschwitz, According to Reitlinger's >"The Final Solution" (1968 edition, p. 161), the ash was dumped into >the Sola river. Yes. And in Birkenau they dumped the ashes from KremaIV and Krema V to a pond that was situated in front of (on the southern side) Krema IV. -- Kari Nenonen kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi Maavallintie 4 00430 Helsinki Finland Article 16937 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!ddsw1!golux.pr.mcs.net!user From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps." Date: Sun, 02 Oct 1994 22:48:59 -0600 Organization: MCSNet Services Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <7HIZk0yNUASC069yn@world.std.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net In article , wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote: > In article , > k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: > > // The military of course wouldn't have let them in, > //so they should have tunneled under the fence, found a few corpses that > //the G.I.s hadn't yet gotten around to giving a decent burial, and begun > //conducting autopsies, complete with chemical analysis of hemoglobin, to > //determine that the agent of death really was hydrocyanic acid. > > So then no autopsies were performed? Is this the case? Wayne, how do you perform an autopsy on a cremated corpse? -- D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup. golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms. -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_ Article 16939 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!golux.pr.mcs.net!user From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Marxist Holocaust Denial Date: Sun, 02 Oct 1994 23:17:38 -0600 Organization: MCSNet Services Lines: 62 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net In article , wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote: > In article , > flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) wrote: > > // And would this apply any less to the Marxists who murdered over > // 100 million innocent civilians in this century? > // Marxists--especially the dictatorship of the Marxist > // intelligentsia--felt hatred and contempt for anybody who was not > // one of them. And this attitude was eminently evident in the > // founder of Marxism himself--Karl Marx. He was a truly nasty > // specimen. > // > //[Ahhh, I should have guessed, back to your pet peeve.. When you are > //faced with a statement that you can not counter easily, you turn to > //the good ole marxist hatred of yours.. > > Hey, everybody, check this out! > > If you object to the murder of 100 million innocent civilians by > Marxists in this century, and the total ruination of many > nations--economically, socially, and culturally--for decades, > you've got a "pet peeve" and are indulging in "hatred" of > Marxism. You STILL don't get it, do you? If you object to the murders of 100 million by Marxists, good for you. If you do it in a forum dedicated to Holocaust denial (or even just plain historical revisionism), you aren't likely to get too many accolades, because it just isn't relevant to the topic at hand. If you insist on turning back to the murder of 100 million Marxist murders when engaged in discussions about the tactics of Holocaust deniers, you will continue to be viewed as evasive. > When six million Jews are murdered by the Nazis, this is a > serious matter. Yes. As is the murder of 100 million by Marxists. And as soon as somebody uses misrepresentation, distortion, lies and bigotry to deny that those murders ever happened, then it will be a fruitful topic of discussion here. Until then, it is at best irrelevant. At worst, it is an intentional attempt to distract and hence, a tactic worthy of a Holocaust denier. > When 100 million people are murdered by Marxists, complaining > about this fact is a "pet peeve" and a manifestation of "Marxist > hatred." See above. You are demanding that we address apples in a discussion about oranges. The remainder of your posting is, again, not relevant to this forum. You are welcome to rant at length about it, of course, but don't expect everything to be addressed the way you think it ought to be. -- D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup. golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms. -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_ Article 16940 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!golux.pr.mcs.net!user From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum Date: Sun, 02 Oct 1994 23:25:59 -0600 Organization: MCSNet Services Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote: > : codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > : Now you're insinuating that, because they didn't put up a full-size > : replica of a gas chamber for people to walk through, they don't know > : what the real gas chambers looked like. > > : I'm not interested in insinuation. > > This "full-size" stuff is purely your concoction. We're just looking for > a credible model. But your entire position that the model that exists is not "credible," is what? Faurisson? He says "stupid ARTISTIC" and that's enough for you? What is his source for his assertions that the model is wrong? Why is that source credible while the Museum's source is not? -- D. J. Schaeffer | The Todal looks like a blob of glup. golux@mcs.com | It makes a sound like rabbits screaming, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and smells of old, unopened rooms. -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_ Article 16952 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!decwrl!netcomsv!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Self-hating people Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <36n28h$mvf@access3.digex.net> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 04:41:03 GMT Lines: 31 Michael P. Stein (mstein@access3.digex.net) wrote: : In article , : Ross Vicksell wrote: : >FYI, Beate Klarsfeld is the self-hating German : Ross, did you get your psychology degree from the same place Bradley : Smith got his? Please provide your evidence that Beate Klarsfeld is : "self-hating." I'll do this one tomorrow, so y'all will have something to look forward to. : Elsewhere you posted information about a talk by Victor Ostrovsky Sorry Mike, you got the wrong guy. : about a supposed plot by the Mossad to murder George Bush. Leaving aside : for the moment the question of what that has to do with whether or not : there was a Nazi plan to exterminate Jews, would you similarly : characterize Ostrovsky as a "self-hating Jew?" Why or why not? : Also, I would point out that Ostrovsky is merely testimony. Do you : believe that there is now sufficient proof of a Mossad plot to assassinate : Bush? If so, what documents or physical evidence did Ostrovsky show you : to prove to you beyond a reasonable doubt that there was such a plot? : -- : Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. : POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official : Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Ross Vicksell Article 16953 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!decwrl!decwrl!netcomsv!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: More whore houses Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 04:54:31 GMT Lines: 55 Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote: : From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) : >During the summer of 1943, Himmler ordered the setting up of brothels in : >concentration camps called Sonderbau (special building). His aim : >was to solve the sexual problem, combat homosexual practices, and : >increase the worker's output ... In mid-December there were thirteen of : >these women in Dachau." : > : > from : > : > Dachau: 1933-45, The Official History, by Paul Berben, page 7 : Well, here you have an interesting claim from a holocaust-denier. : So how does that gibe with, for example, Mr Doubting Thomas' : insistence that the Nazi Army was run in a idyllically professional : manner? : How many other professional armies have erected brothels? Tolerated The Japanese in WWII. Remember the Korean women the Japanese took with them to Southeast Asia for use by their officers. : them no doubt, but *erected* them? : Even if the claim were true this is certainly a two-edged sword that : speaks volumes on what sick and twisted creeps these Nazis were. What's wrong with the reasons stated by Himmler? : The term *brothel* implies the women were paid for what they did. : How come I get the feeling this wasn't the case, anyone want to claim : otherwise? I presume they were paid in camp scrip. : Swell, they couldn't just kill and starve the prisoners, they forced : the women into sexual slavery also. Anything else Mr Vicksell would : like to say in the Nazis' defense? : What a swell bunch of guys, real men...tatooing little children, : forcing women into sexual slavery, real heros... For all I know, they were volunteers. : -- : -Barry Shein : Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs : Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 16954 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!decwrl!decwrl!netcomsv!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: More whore houses Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <36lla5$54a@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 04:58:28 GMT Lines: 44 Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote: : Ross Vicksell wrote: : # During the summer of 1943, Himmler ordered the setting up of brothels in : # concentration camps called Sonderbau (special building). His aim : # was to solve the sexual problem, combat homosexual practices, and : # increase the worker's output ... In mid-December there were thirteen of : # these women in Dachau." : What does this exactly prove? It is interesting, BTW, to see the : following speech from Himmler. It tends to lend credence to the contention that the patrons of the Auschwitz cat house were prisoners rather than SS men. : I take it that Vicksell agrees that everything else about the : official history of Dachau is correct? The medical experiments, : for instance? : Extract from Himmler's address to party comrades, September 7 1940 : [Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - : Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., Vol. IV, p. 1140] : ------------------------------------------------------------------ : If any Pole has any sexual dealing with a German woman, and by this : I mean sexual intercourse, then the man will be hanged right in : front of his camp. Then the others will not do it. Besides, : provisions will be made that a sufficient number of Polish women : and girls will come along as well so that a necessity of this : kind is out of the question. : The women will be brought before the courts without mercy, and : where the facts are not sufficiently proved - such borderline : cases always happen - they will be sent to a concentration camp. : This we must do, unless these one million Poles and those : hundreds of thousands of workers of alien blood are to inflict : untold damage on the German blood. Philosophizing is of no avail : in this case. It would be better if we did not have them at all - : we all know that - but we need them. : : -Danny Keren. Article 16959 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!seunet!news2.swip.net!aristotle.algonet.se!localhost!flax From: flax@aristotle (Jonas Flygare) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Marxist Holocaust Denial Date: 03 Oct 1994 09:54:23 GMT Organization: AlgoNet Public Access Node, Stockholm Lines: 97 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.algonet.se In-reply-to: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Sat, 1 Oct 1994 18:51:12 GMT In article wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes: >In article , >flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) wrote: >//>And would this apply any less to the Marxists who murdered over >//>100 million innocent civilians in this century? >//>Marxists--especially the dictatorship of the Marxist >//>intelligentsia--felt hatred and contempt for anybody who was not >//>one of them. And this attitude was eminently evident in the >//>founder of Marxism himself--Karl Marx. He was a truly nasty >//>specimen. >// >//[Ahhh, I should have guessed, back to your pet peeve.. When you are >//faced with a statement that you can not counter easily, you turn to >//the good ole marxist hatred of yours.. >Hey, everybody, check this out! >If you object to the murder of 100 million innocent civilians by >Marxists in this century, and the total ruination of many >nations--economically, socially, and culturally--for decades, >you've got a "pet peeve" and are indulging in "hatred" of >Marxism. Given the context of the discussion, yes, one may well regard it as your pet peeve. Note that I have not said it is _wrong_ to discuss the issue, or that you are wrong in doing so. But, the issue discussed is the jewish holocaust, and you are evading the question, by pointing at the russian holocaust. >When six million Jews are murdered by the Nazis, this is a >serious matter. See above. >When 100 million people are murdered by Marxists, complaining >about this fact is a "pet peeve" and a manifestation of "Marxist >hatred." See above. >Flygare is one of the folks I know well from >talk.politics.mideast, where he displayed his militant Zionism at >length, with a high ratio of personal abuse to facts, rational >arguments, and solid documentation. It's interesting to see that >he is also an apologist for Marxism. Actually, Zionism and >Marxism are closely linked: most of the early Zionists were >passionate Marxists, and a Marxist culture still permeates much >of Israeli society--much to its detriment and economic health. Hmmm... Zionist, and Marxist to boot? Wow! I never knew that.. Care to document your claim? Considering the amount of time since I last read t.p.m, and even longer, since I wrote, since I was tired of having to cope with israeli writers being upset with my views on the Israeli "security" policy. (And no, I do not like it, since I've lived on both sides of the border) I would be very surprised if you got even one of them to agree that I am a zionist. As for Marx, I do not agree with what he wrote, but regard his texts as a reaction to how low, and middle class was treated in many countries at the time. An american equivalent, albeit more of an observer, would be Upton Sinclair, you might want to read "The Jungle" if you have not done so already. Note the similarities in describing how people live. Marx proposed a solution, that a lot of people thought right, hence Marxism. Some made their own variety, hence Stalinism, Leninism and Trotskism. To a casual observer (me) it seems that the inherent mistake in all of them is that they base the system on the idea that people are good, and do not mind sharing with those who are poorer. I think that is a rare trait, and that a system built on that idea will fail. I might be a pessimist, but who isn't? Anyway, you are lying when you make the above statement. I can only hope it stems from ignorance, otherwise I'd say you are a both stupid, and a liar. >I've been gathering together all the Marxist apologetics in this >newsgroup from the anti-revisionist side; they provide remarkable >support for Eugene Genovese's charge in the Summer Dissent that >significant sectors of the left have not come to terms with the >horrific damage that has been wrought in this century by leftist >political movements. Yes! When things gets tough, there's nothing like smacking labels onto people and trying for some guilt by association! Way to go, Wayne! >I always love it when die-hard Marxists beg, just give us one >more chance! This time we'll get it right! W#ho's begging? >How stupid can you get? How many more tens of millions of lives >would you have to take before the truth sank in that Marxism >doesn't work in the real world and ruins everything it touches? See my first comment. You are barking up the wrong tree, Wayne. Article 16961 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.intercon.com!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Self-hating people Date: 3 Oct 1994 05:42:28 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 25 Message-ID: <36ojm4$32n@access4.digex.net> References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <36n28h$mvf@access3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net In article , Ross Vicksell wrote: >Michael P. Stein (mstein@access3.digex.net) wrote: >: In article , >: Ross Vicksell wrote: >: Elsewhere you posted information about a talk by Victor Ostrovsky > >Sorry Mike, you got the wrong guy. Oops - sorry, you're right, that was Rick Savage. However, the two questions below still remain valid and I'd like you to answer them. >: ... would you similarly >: characterize Ostrovsky as a "self-hating Jew?" Why or why not? > >: Also, I would point out that Ostrovsky is merely testimony. Do you >: believe that there is now sufficient proof of a Mossad plot to assassinate >: Bush? If so, what documents or physical evidence did Ostrovsky show you >: to prove to you beyond a reasonable doubt that there was such a plot? -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 16985 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!hermes.oc.com!news.kei.com!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: More whore houses In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Mon, 3 Oct 1994 04:54:31 GMT Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 20:32:15 GMT Lines: 49 From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) >: How many other professional armies have erected brothels? Tolerated > >The Japanese in WWII. Remember the Korean women the Japanese took with >them to Southeast Asia for use by their officers. Well, now there's an ideal to live up to. Methinks you've lost focus on the question. >: Even if the claim were true this is certainly a two-edged sword that >: speaks volumes on what sick and twisted creeps these Nazis were. > > >What's wrong with the reasons stated by Himmler? They don't seem to much take into account the women involved do they? >: The term *brothel* implies the women were paid for what they did. > >: How come I get the feeling this wasn't the case, anyone want to claim >: otherwise? > >I presume they were paid in camp scrip. And this was a voluntary position? Or not. >: Swell, they couldn't just kill and starve the prisoners, they forced >: the women into sexual slavery also. Anything else Mr Vicksell would >: like to say in the Nazis' defense? > >: What a swell bunch of guys, real men...tatooing little children, >: forcing women into sexual slavery, real heros... > >For all I know, they were volunteers. Volunteers to be in the camps in the first place? C'mon...CAH-MAHN! -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 16986 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sgiblab!uhog.mit.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: More whore houses In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Mon, 3 Oct 1994 04:58:28 GMT Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: <36lla5$54a@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 20:34:20 GMT Lines: 29 From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) >Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote: >: Ross Vicksell wrote: > >: # During the summer of 1943, Himmler ordered the setting up of brothels in >: # concentration camps called Sonderbau (special building). His aim >: # was to solve the sexual problem, combat homosexual practices, and >: # increase the worker's output ... In mid-December there were thirteen of >: # these women in Dachau." > >: What does this exactly prove? It is interesting, BTW, to see the >: following speech from Himmler. > > >It tends to lend credence to the contention that the patrons of the >Auschwitz cat house were prisoners rather than SS men. I don't see that, what in the above statement leads you to say this? It says there were 13 women. How many male prisoners were there? Let's do some arithmetic... -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 16990 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!spok From: spok+@cs.cmu.edu (John Ockerbloom) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: New thread (was: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum) Date: 3 Oct 1994 21:51:21 GMT Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon Lines: 25 Message-ID: <36pucp$6qh@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu> References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <36en9b$bi5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: gs1.sp.cs.cmu.edu In article , Ross Vicksell wrote: >For what it's worth, I've started a new thread called "Is the Holocaust a >Religion?", for people who want to discuss whether the HMM should be on >public land, whether it should be taxpayer funded, etc. There's lots of memorials on public land. Off the top of my head, in Washington alone I can think of the Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson memorials, Maya Lin's breathtaking Vietnam War Memorial, the Navy Memorial and Museum (near the National Archives), Arlington National Cemetery (across the river in Virginia), and now the Holocaust Memorial Museum. And lots of smaller memorials as well. I don't know offhand how public funds were allocated for these, but wouldn't be surprised if some public money was involved. I'd even wager that some public religious services (i.e. prayers) are occasionally scheduled at some of them (such as on Memorial Day). Do you have problems with these memorials in general, or just with the Holocaust one? John Ockerbloom -- ========================================================================== ockerbloom@cs.cmu.edu 1603 Beechwood Blvd., Pittsburgh PA 15217 Article 17004 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!landpost_ppp.clark.net!user From: landpost@clark.net Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Autopsies on ashes Date: 4 Oct 1994 03:02:31 GMT Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <36lqch$cm0@access3.digex.net> <36n203$t8g@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: landpost_ppp.clark.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In article <36n203$t8g@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote: > # You mean no excavations have been done around Auschwitz, how > # convenient. > > I understand that the Poles discovered large quantities of ash and > human remains in Treblinka. The Poles found nothing around Treblinka. In Auschwitz, According to Reitlinger's > "The Final Solution" (1968 edition, p. 161), the ash was dumped into > the Sola river. Where are the remains???? > Also, when one does the calculation, it turns out that ashes - even > from a huge number of corpses - take up a surprisingly small > volume. To be more exact, we'll have to know the weight of a given > volume of ash (I apologize for going into these gory details). > A 150 pound man would have to leave at least 1/2 pound of remains. You say, "6,000,000 Jews were gassed and cremated", so where are the 3,000,000 pounds of remains???? Tim McCarthy landpost@clark.net Article 17009 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!landpost_ppp.clark.net!user From: landpost@clark.net Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Goeth's arrest Date: 4 Oct 1994 03:42:05 GMT Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <36de93$gs4@access4.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: landpost_ppp.clark.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In article , k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: > No one has taken me up on it. No revisionist has offered. Landpost > said he would but then backed down. > > So I guess alt.revisionism certainly has nothing to do with attempting > to prove the _nonexistence_ of gas chambers. > -------- I'm waiting for a reply to my post "Jamie McCarthy's thin jackets". Er, I mean I'm "standing" for a reply to this post. Tim McCarthy landpost@clark.net Article 17017 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!news.umass.edu!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Autopsies on ashes Date: 4 Oct 1994 07:03:25 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 40 Message-ID: <36qunt$9is@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: <36n203$t8g@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu wrote: # dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote: ## I understand that the Poles discovered large quantities of ash and ## human remains in Treblinka. # The Poles found nothing around Treblinka. So, the Poles are also lying, not only the Jews? ##In Auschwitz, According to Reitlinger's ## "The Final Solution" (1968 edition, p. 161), the ash was dumped into ## the Sola river. # Where are the remains???? If the ashes were dumped into a river, how do you expect them to be found? # A 150 pound man would have to leave at least 1/2 pound of remains. You # say, "6,000,000 Jews were gassed and cremated", so where are the 3,000,000 # pounds of remains???? 1) Many of those murdered, such as infants and children, didn't weigh anything like 150 pounds. 2) No one said "6,000,000 Jews were gassed and cremated". About a half of the Jewish victims were gassed, the rest killed by other means. 3) As I wrote, Polish researchers found large quantities of ashes, and numerous bone fragments, in Treblinka, in graves up to 7 meters deep. This fact was, actually, posted here by Greg Raven. 4) I repeat that the amount of ashes, even from a very large number of corpses, is quite easy to dispose of, simply by scattering it in fields, or dumping it in rivers and swamps. If one calculates the total volume of the ashes, it turns out to be surprisingly small. -Danny Keren. Article 17023 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.primenet.com!usr1.primenet.com!btrosko From: btrosko@usr1.primenet.com (Brian Trosko) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Autopsies on ashes Date: 3 Oct 1994 03:49:41 GMT Organization: Primenet Lines: 36 Message-ID: <36nv0l$987@news.primenet.com> References: <7HIZk0yNUASC069yn@world.std.com> <36lqch$cm0@access3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: usr1.primenet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] landpost@clark.net wrote: : In article <36lqch$cm0@access3.digex.net>, mstein@access3.digex.net : (Michael P. Stein) wrote: : > In article , : > Wayne McGuire