Ninety-Eighth Day:
Wednesday, 3rd April, 1946
[Page 319]
A. I can only answer yes, never.
DR. NELTE: I come now to the question of the Reich Defence
Council (Reichsverteidigungsrat.) In the session of the 23rd
of November, the prosecution submitted in evidence, as proof
of the rearmament and the active participation of the
Wehrmacht in the planning of wars of aggression, among
others, Document EC-177, which was designated as "Meeting of
the Reich Defence Council of the 22nd of May, 1933." I must
say that I have taken the translation from the minutes and I
am not sure whether the expression "Reichsverteidigungsrat"
- Reich defence council - was translated correctly. In the
minutes it states that it is a meeting of the working
committee. For your information may I say that the
"Reichsverteidigungsrat" was supposed to be a sort of
ministerial body and that in addition, there was a working
committee.
A second document EC-405 was submitted, a meeting of the
same body on the 7th of March, 1934; and a third document
2261-PS dealing with the Reich Defence Law of 1935 and the
appointment of Dr. Schacht as Plenipotentiary General for
War Economy.
BY DR. NELTE:
Q. Beyond doubt, you have been active in questions of
National Defence. These documents are also submitted as
evidence against you. I ask you, therefore, to state whether
these meetings in which you participated and which you
conducted were concerned with preparations for war and
rearmament.
[Page 320]
Now, as to the meeting of 22nd May, 1933, which has been
discussed several times. It was already stated in the
heading of the minutes which we have before us: Competency,
hitherto the "Reichswehrminister," now the Reich Defence
Council. Hitherto Reichswehrminister, over the committee,
voluntary participation of the ministers of other
departments; now compulsory participation of the heads of
Departments, that is the Ministers, who received the title
of "Defence Councillors." I will express that even more
clearly, so that it cannot be misunderstood. Every member of
the committee represented a ministry. The minister to whom
the committee member was responsible, along with his
colleagues, formed the Reich Defence Council, as envisaged
by us then. They were the council and we were the committee.
Therefore, up to now "Reichswehrminister" - now, one could
say, as I have just expressed it, the other Ministers were
obliged to handle these matters.
In paragraph 3 the working plans were particularly
mentioned. These working plans, in a word, are the
forerunner of the Mobilisation. Book, which is the final
[Page 321]
Q. I have given to you now the Mobilisation Book for the
Civil Administration. It is document PS-1639. It has been
submitted in order to prove that aggressive wars were being
planned. Would you explain to us the purpose of this book?
A. I have already stated that at an earlier stage, that is
during the years 1932/33, the individual ministries had so-
called working plans which included what they were to do if
something happened which necessitated their participation in
defending the country. In the course of years, naturally, a
number of new tasks were added and that finally led to this
Mobilisation Book for the Civil Authorities and Civil
Administration, the study of which would certainly show
nothing which might have anything to do with strategic,
operational or other preparations for war. On the other
hand, I am not in a position to prove that everything
contained in this book could never have been useful in
military operations which could develop from an aggressive
war plan. Many, one could almost say most, measures in the
event of mobilisation would not indicate on the surface
whether it is a measure for defence or a measure which is
necessary for aggressive action, or if it is merely a
supposition. That cannot be determined. But I believe I can
say, because I, myself, have been engaged so personally in
this work, perhaps more than anyone else, that there was no
reason at all to burden the civilian experts - they were
high government counsellors - with strategic or operational
planning. I do not believe that it is necessary to prove
that such work is not within their scope. I have looked
through and studied this mobilisation book here. I do not
wish to bore you by citing points which are of a purely
defensive nature. I could name them: closing, reinforcement
of the frontier defences; demolitions, cutting of railroads
and similar things, all this is in the book. One of the most
important chapters, which, if I remember correctly, we
discussed during four or five of these sessions, was the
question of evacuation, that is, evacuating territories
close to the border of valuable war material and personnel,
so that, in case of war, they should not fall into the hands
of the enemy. This problem of evacuation was one of the most
difficult, because the extent to which one can evacuate,
that is, what things can be evacuated, is perhaps one of the
most difficult decisions to make.
Q. If I ...
A. I would like to say one more thing about the Reich
Defence Committee, supplementing the ideas which I expressed
before. Until the year 1938 no meeting or session of the
Reich Defence Council was ever held, that is, the ministers
who were the superiors of the committee members never met,
not even once. I would have known about it, although at the
cabinet meeting, I believe as early as March, 1933, we
passed a resolution to make these ministers responsible for
a Reich Defence Council which should deal with these tasks,
and to oblige them to take over these tasks as their
necessary contribution to the defence of the Reich, and, of
course, to finance them. That was the main purpose -
otherwise the Reich Defence Council never met.
[Page 322]
A. I merely wish to add a few supplementary words to the
statement which Reich Marshal Goering has already made. In
December, 1938, there was passed the Reich Defence Law,
which had been drawn up in 1935, a shelved law, i.e. a law
which had not been made public and one which required
modification, the reason being that the Reich Defence Law of
1935 was devised by the Reich War Minister, Commander in
Chief von Blomberg who no longer held office. I was with
Reich Marshall Goering at that time to discuss this with him
and to find a new basis for this law, which until then had
not been published. This law of the autumn of 1938 had a
number of supplementary clauses as compared to the old one,
and perhaps I will be able to give details later. Among
other things, according to this law also, Reich Marshal
Goering, who was formerly Reich War Minister, represented
the Fuehrer, a function which I could not exercise.
This conference in November, 1938, to recall it briefly, had
been convened by Reich Marshal Goering in order to present
this law which had not been published, and which was not to
be published, to a large circle of members of the
ministries. There were about seventy or more persons
present, to whom the Reich Marshal explained the purpose and
the essence of this law in the form of a speech. There was
no discussion apart from that speech and there was certainly
no question of a meeting of the Reich Defence Council at
that time.
You also recently showed me the second document of a meeting
of the Reich Defence Council as it is called and as also
appears in the heading of the minutes of the summer, 1939.
Q. No, March, 1939.
A. That has been mentioned here, and I believe it was the
second meeting of the Reich Defence Council, I can explain
that.
I called a meeting of the committee and, of course,
furnished Reichsmarschall Goering with the agenda and the
names of the people who were to be present. Reichsmarschall
Goering informed me that he would come himself and that
since he wished to discuss other questions he would
accordingly enlarge the attendance. This conference,
therefore, had an agenda which I had planned for the
committee and concrete questions were also brought up for
debate. It is however remarkable that according to the list
of those present, that is according to the numbers, the
members of the Reich Defence Council were only represented
by a very small number, partly not at all, although there
were about forty or fifty people present. The Reich Defence
Council itself was a body of twelve people, and it needs no
further explanation that, from the form in which these two
conferences or sessions took place, one could not say that
this was a plenary session of the Reich Defence Council
based upon a clearly defined agenda but rather, that there
were two meetings, the motive and extent of which I have
described here.
(A recess was taken.)
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Nelte, the Tribunal think that you might
get on a little more quickly with the defendant. The
Tribunal recall that you asked a few days ago that you might
submit an affidavit of the defendant's evidence, and there
is in your Document Book an affidavit. You have been over
all those matters in the affidavit at very much greater
length than you would have gone into them if you had read
the affidavit, and we hope that you will be able to deal
more shortly with the evidence in future.
[Page 323]
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Nelte, I do not think it is
necessary to discuss the matter further; but the Tribunal
have expressed their wish.
DR. NELTE: As far as I am able, I shall comply with your
request, Mr. President.
(The defendant Keitel resumed the stand and testified
further as follows.)
BY DR. NELTE (Continued):
Q. Feldmarschall Keitel, you have just given us an
explanation of the Reich Defence Council, and the Reich
Defence Committee. You probably realise that we are not and
should not be so much concerned with whether decisions are
made by a Reich Defence Council or a Reich Defence
Committee. We are interested in what actually took place and
whether or not these things justify the imputations of the
prosecution. In this respect I ask you to tell me if those
things which you discussed and planned on the Reich Defence
Committee justify the suspicion that you were considering
aggressive war?
A. I realise fully that we are not concerned with the
formality of whether it was the Council or the Committee,
since the Council was a board of ministers, while the
Committee was a board of minor experts. We are concerned
with what actually did take place and what was done. With
the exception that in the year 1934 and until the autumn of
1935 I was not present at these discussions, and therefore
cannot vouch for every word which was spoken at that time, I
must state that nothing about the planning of wars, the
preparing for wars, the operational, strategical or armed
preparedness for war was ever discussed.
Q. The prosecution has labelled you as a member of the Three-
Man Council, from which they have deduced that you had
special powers to act within the German Reich Government. I
am submitting to you Document 2194-PS. In this document in
the Reich Defence Law of 1938, paragraph 5, sub-section 4,
you will find the source of this term which, in itself, is
not official.
A. The Reich Defence Law of 1938 provided for a general
plenipotentiary for administration in order to restrict the
size of the body. The Reich Minister of the Interior was to
have this office and further, according to paragraph 5,
subsection 4, the Supreme Command of the Army was to have
priority influence in regard to the State Railways and the
State Postal Services, for in the event of mobilisation,
transport must run and the services for the transmission of
news must be available, as is the case in all countries. The
Three-Man Council is an idea which I have never heard of
until just now. It probably refers to the Plenipotentiary
General for Administration, the Plenipotentiary General for
Economy and the Chief of the O.K.W. It referred to three.
There is no doubt about it, because, in line with the Reich
Defence Law, they were already supposed to have a number of
decrees which were to be published when this law was made
public, and each one of the three had to make the necessary
preparations in his own sphere. Thus the idea of a Three-man
Council originated.
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(Part 4 of 6)
[DR. NELTE continues his direct examination of Wilhelm Bodewin Johann Gustav Keitel]