One Hundred and Thirty-Eighth Day:
Friday, 24th May, 1946 [Page 395]
BY MR. DODD:
Q. Witness, would you agree that from time to time members
of your Hitler Youth both in their songs and otherwise
conducted themselves in a manner which certainly was hostile
to organized religious institutions?
[Baldur von Schirach] A. I do not intend to deny that isolated members behaved in that way during the early years of the National Socialist
State, but I should like to add a short explanation.
In the early years I took into my movement millions of young
people from Marxist organizations and the atheist movement,
etc., and, of course, it was not possible in the space of
two or three or four years' time to discipline all of them
completely. But I think I may say that after a certain date
- say 1936, things of that sort no longer happened.
Q. Well, I thought perhaps we could say, anyway, that in
1935 this sort of thing was going on and so save some time.
Would you agree to that? They were singing songs such as
"Pope and rabbi shall yield, we want to be pagans again";
and that sort of stuff. Are you familiar with that? Do you
know that kind of thing which came to the attention of the
Minister of Justice or the prosecuting authority in Baden.
A. No.
Q. Do you know that they sang a song published in the song
book Blut und Ehre, a song saying, "We want to kill the
priest, out with your spear, forward; set the red cock on
the cloister roof." You know that old song?
A. That is a song dating back to the Thirty Years War, and
sung by the youth movement for many, many years, even before
the First World War.
Q. I know, you have told me that before. I am trying to cut
that down. Will you agree that your people were singing it
in 1933, 1934 and 1935 to the extent that, when clerics
objected, they were prosecuted by authorities for
interfering and criticising? That is how important it was.
A. I know, as I have already said, that this song dates back
to the Thirty Years War. It was sometimes sung by young
people in the years 1933-34. I tried to abolish this song,
but I cannot give you any information as to special
complaints which were lodged about it.
Q. I do not think that we have made clear that these songs
were put out in a book which you published for the Hitler
Youth to sing in these days. Do you agree to that?
[Page 396]
Q. I am not really interested in the history. All I am
trying to establish is that in your song book for your young
people this song was present, that it was sung, that when
the church people complained, they were prosecuted for
complaining.
A. I must dispute the last point.
Q. Well, I will have to put this document in.
MR. DODD: It is Document 3751-PS. These are extracts from
the diary of the prosecuting authorities, the diary of the
Minister of Justice. And that becomes Exhibit USA 858.
BY MR. DODD:
Q: Now, the very first entry that is shown to you is a note
from the diary of the Minister of Justice on the Catholic
vicar, Paul Wasmer regarding criminal proceedings against
him, and it is a question of whether a penal sentence should
be proposed by Rosenberg because of libel. The bishop, in
his sermon, cited a song being sung by young people. I
quoted a few words of it a moment ago about "Pope and rabbi
shall yield, out with the Jews," and so on. The Minister of
Justice, in his diary, goes on to say that this Catholic
bishop also quoted from "the little book of songs published
by Baldur von Schirach," a verse with the following text:
A. The song quoted, which has the refrain "Kyrieleis,"
which, in itself, shows it is a very old song -
Q. May I interrupt you to say -
A. - may possibly be included in the song book Blood and
Honour. I am, of course, unaware that a clergyman was
prosecuted for criticising it. That is something new, which
I learn of here for the first time.
Q. All right. Look at Page 192 of that same diary, and you
will see where the Archbishop of Paderborn reported the
incident of 12th May. In this case, he was asking that
something be done to stop this sort of thing, and there is a
rather nasty little song there about a monk and a nun, and
so on, which your young people were singing, and then it
goes on to say what happened to the Archbishop when he came
out into the square, and what the Hitler Youth did, what
names they called him, and it says there were seven Hitler
Youth leaders from outside, present in that city that day,
and they were in civilian clothing. Do you mean to say you
never heard of these things?
A. I know of this incident. I called the competent leader of
the area, Langanke by name, to account for this. I had a
good deal of work in connection with the incident. I shall
therefore ask my counsel to question the witness
Lauterbacher, who then held the rank of Stabsfuehrer, and is
acquainted with the details. Some lines of the song you
quoted just now caused a good deal of violent feeling among
the population at the time - some of those lines are quoted
here - on account of the foreign currency racketeering
indulged in by some clergymen. That is why this satirical
song was sung.
[Page 397]
Q. All right, turn to Page 228 of that diary, and you will
read that a Chaplain Heinrich Muller, and a town clergyman
Franz Rummer, came under suspicion because they said in a
circle of Catholic clergy that a certain song was sung by
the Hitler Youth at the Party Rally in 1934:
No evil old priest these ties can sever;
Q. It is Page 228, a and b. I'm sorry. Maybe you will
remember the song, anyway, if I read it to you. Do you
remember the lines that said, "We do not follow Christ, but
instead Horst Wessel"?
A. This is the first time I have seen this song. I do not
know this song.
Q. All right; I will not go on reading it. You noticed that
in an entry in the diary, the last paragraph, it says:
Q. All right.
A. I myself read through all the programmes for youth events
at the Party Rally.
I do not know this song; I have never heard it; and I do not
know the text.
Q. You will notice that the last line says:
A. The point that I should like to make clear to the
Tribunal is that in the Youth Movement there was a period of
storm and stress during its development - and that the
organization must not be judged by the actions of a few
individuals or groups in the same year in which these
individuals or groups became members of the organization.
The result of educational work cannot be judged until some
years have elapsed. It is possible that a group of youth who
entered our ranks from the atheist movement in 1934,
composed and sang these songs. In 1936 they would certainly
no longer have done it.
Q. Well, let us see - what you were doing in 1937. You know
the publication Enjoyment, Discipline, Faith? Do you know
that handbook for cultural work in your youth camps?
[Page 398]
Q. I'll show it to you, but I wanted to ask you, first of
all: Do you know the publication? Do you know what I am
talking about when I refer to it?
A. I do not know all our publications. We had such an
enormous number of publications that unless I have the book
in front of me, I cannot make any statement on the subject.
Q. All right; I'll take your answer that you do not know
this one without seeing it. We will show it to you. This
one, among other things, has the programme for a week in one
of your camps, a suggested series of programmes. And again,
I will ask you a question, and maybe we can cut this down.
Is it not a fact that in your camps you tried to make Hitler
and God more than partners, and particularly tried to direct
the religious attitudes of young people to the belief that
Hitler was sent to this earth by God, and was His divinely
appointed apostle in Germany?
Well, just answer that first of all, and then we can look at
the programme.
A. No. I never made any comparison between Hitler and God;
and I considered it blasphemous and have always considered
such a comparison blasphemous.
It is true that during the long period of years in which I
believed in Hitler, I saw in him a man sent by God to lead
the people. That is true. I believe any great man in history
- and in the past, I considered Hitler such a man - may be
regarded as being sent by God.
MR. DODD: This is a Document 2436-PS, Exhibit USA 859.
Q. I am not going to go all through it with you, but I do
want to call your attention to some specific parts.
First of all, on Page 64, you have the names of people
suggested as inspiring examples for the day. They are all
political or military heroes of Germany, I expect, are they
not?
A. Arminius, Geiserich, Braunschweig -
Q. You do not need to read them all. If they are not, say
they are not, and if they are, say yes. I merely asked you
if they were not all military or political heroes of
Germany.
A. I do not know whether Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia
can be characterised simply as a war hero. He was certainly
an artist as much as an officer.
Q. All right, I will pass that and take your answer that
they are not.
Let's turn to the Sunday morning celebration mentioned on
Page 70 of your text, near the end of it. I wanted
particularly to direct your attention to this in view of
what you said about Rosenberg earlier this afternoon:
A. Yes, I have found it.
Q. Well, do you still say that Rosenberg and his works had
nothing to do with your Hitler Youth? You were suggesting
that for Sunday morning reading, they might listen to this
benign philosopher's works, were you not?
THE PRESIDENT: Did you say Rosenberg on Page 70?
MR. DODD: Of the English text? No, sir, Page 3; it is Page
70 of the German text.
BY MR. DODD:
Q. It may be Page 71 of your text, witness. I had it as Page
70. You will find it there. Do you see it?
A. Page 71 of the German text. Nothing is proved by the fact
that such a reference is made in one of the numerous
handbooks of cultural work to one of the training staff who
attended those bi-annual discussions of Rosenberg which
[Page 399]
Q. Let me ask you something about this. You find one line in
here for the Sunday morning celebration about a Churchman, a
chaplain, holy scripture, or anything related to religious
institutions and tell the Tribunal where it is.
A. I take it as certain that nothing like that occurs there.
Q. That is your Sunday morning programme.
A. The Hitler Youth was a State youth organization, and my
aim was to separate religious and State education. A young
man who wanted to go to church could go after the morning
celebration - it was a camp function - or before it,
according to whether he wanted to attend mass or go to a
Protestant service, and on these Sundays on which he was not
in camp - the whole camp lasted three weeks at the outside -
he was completely free to attend church at home with his
parents or other friends.
Q. All right.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, I think it is fair to say that
immediately before the words "Page 71" there are three lines
which might be said to refer to religion.
MR. DODD: Yes, I intend to quote it. I was saving that for a
little later. I will be glad to do it now if your Honour
prefers to have it.
THE PRESIDENT: No.
BY MR. DODD:
Q. I want to call your attention to an historical moral
ballad that is suggested for the youth of this camp, on Page
89 of your text, or 90, and on Page 6 of the English text.
Now, you will note - I am not going to read this whole
ballad, but I think you will agree that it ridicules, to put
it mildly, the Jews, and other political parties in Germany.
It refers to "Isidor, Isidor" in the opening lines, and
lower down you will see, "Poor Michael was a wretched man;
he had to serve the Jewish clan." In another line, "He gave
the gang and the Jew a kick."
And then your Party Youth leaders suggest that they have a -
what is it - a shadow show: "The nose of Isidor must be
strongly exaggerated; the German Michael is to be presented
in the conventional manner; the Communist as a wild stormer
of barricades; the Social Democrat with a balloon cap; the
Central Party man with a Jesuit cap, and the reactionary
with top hat and monocle."
Did you ever see one of those shows, by the way?
A. I cannot find the text you have just quoted on Page 89.
Q. I probably have given you the wrong page. I have just
been told it is Page 154 of your text - 155, rather.
A. Yes.
Q. Well, I just want to know about this suggested part of
the programme for these young people of yours.
A. I should like to say something about the whole question
as far as this book is concerned. I wrote the preface, and I
accept responsibility for the contents. I did not read every
detail of this book beforehand; and I do not wish to dispute
the fact that in the camps forming part of the camp circus,
as it was called, political caricatures were presented in
the form of shadow-shows.
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(Part 9 of 11)
"To the Lord in heaven we'll surely say
and so on:
That we his priest would gladly slay," "Out with your spear, forward march."
And he further quoted you as saying, "The path of German
youth is Rosenberg." Now, that is what he got into trouble
for doing, and all I am asking you - and all I did ask - is
if you will not admit that people who criticized the use of
this kind of stuff by your young people and under your
leadership, were liable to possible prosecution, and in many
cases, were actually prosecuted? You see, you told the
Tribunal yesterday that you never did anything directly to
interfere with the Church, Catholic or Protestant.
"We are the rollicking Hitler Youth
A. I have not found the place.
We have no need of Christian truth;
For Adolf Hitler is our Leader
And our Interceder.
We're Hitler's children now and ever." "The Advocate-General notes that there is no doubt that
the song in question was sung or circulated in Hitler
Youth circles; he thinks that the statement that this
song was sung at the Party Rally, i.e., to a certain
extent under the eyes and with the consent of the
highest Party officials, can be refuted."
The third stanza reads
"I am no Christian, no Catholic;
A. I gather that it is not a youth song. If the young people
sang that song, I very much regret it. That song was
certainly not sung at a youth festival at the Party Rally in
1934, as stated here.
I follow the SA through thin and thick." "Baldur von Schirach take me too"!
The only point to all this is that certainly it is a
surprise to the prosecution to hear you say, as the Youth
Leader, that you did not know that there were great
differences and struggles between the Churchmen of all the
Churches in Germany and the Youth organization in Germany,
certainly during these years.
"If there is no one who can make a short formal address -
it must be good and hold attention - extracts from Mein
Kampf, or from the Fuehrer's speeches or Rosenberg's,
works should be read."
Do you find that?