One Hundred and Forty-Second Day:
Thursday, 30th May, 1946
[Page 158]
A. Yes, I find the place about General Warlimont, but in the
German translation it sounds entirely different from what
you are reading.
Q. It is on Page 3. Have you found it?
A. Yes.
Q. Then I can resume the reading of it:
(b) If large towns are totally or partially evacuated as
a result of food-supply difficulties, all the population
capable of work will be recruited for labour with the aid
of the Wehrmacht.
(c) A special drive for recruiting labour among refugees
from areas close to the front must be made with the aid
of the Wehrmacht.
Gauleiter Sauckel accepted these proposals with gratitude
and expressed the hope that certain results would be
obtained by these means."
A. I did not deny that in this combat area, and for the
purpose of maintaining order in these rear areas, these
measures were proposed, but they were not carried through.
Q. Well, I am going to produce a document which refers to
three or four days after this meeting of ministers. It is a
telegram from defendant Keitel. Document 814, which I submit
to the Tribunal under Exhibit 1516-RF. It is a telegram
addressed by defendant Keitel to all military commanders. I
call your attention to the fact that it bears the stamp of
the labour Section of the Military Governor in France. This
is dated 15th July and here is the text of it
THE PRESIDENT: M. Herzog, some of these documents are not
tabbed and it is quite impossible to find them unless you
tell us where they are.
M. HERZOG: I have tabbed only those documents which I intend
to use several times so that the Tribunal will be able to
find them easily. Otherwise, the documents must be in the
order in which I use them. Document 814 should, therefore,
be immediately after 3819, unless I am mistaken.
THE PRESIDENT: 3819, you mean?
M. HERZOG: Actually it is after the document marked RF-15;
it is the fourth document after RF-814.
[Page 159]
M. HERZOG: After 815 we have Document 823, then 824, and
814, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, yes, now I see it.
BY M. HERZOG:
Q. This document contains the instructions which Keitel gave
in connection with this meeting of leaders. I read the
second paragraph:
A. I must emphasize here again that I did not dispute that
these things had been planned and ordered. I did not dispute
that fact and I should like to emphasize that again; but
these measures were not carried through and that I would
like to emphasize also, and besides that, I did not send
this telegram.
Q. Is it correct to say that the German police proceeded to
take steps to recruit foreign workers?
A. How far the police carried through their measures in
detail, I do not know, but I do know that they carried
through some measures on their own accord.
Q. But is it not true that you recommended to your offices
that they should contact the chiefs of police of the SD and
of the SS?
A. I considered both the SD and the police to be ordered and
justified institutions and I had to ask for their help when
it was necessary.
Q. You, therefore, admit that you recommended to your
offices that they should get into contact with the chiefs of
police of SD and of SS for the accomplishment of their
tasks?
A. To support me in my tasks, where an orderly participation
or the use of the police was necessary from an
administrative a point of view; not for the recruiting of
workers themselves; only to deal with difficulties or
administrative disturbances.
Q. I ask you the question again and I ask you to answer
"yes" or "no." Did you recommend to your offices to get in
touch with the chiefs of police of SS and of SD?
A. I can only answer "yes" to that question with the
reservation - on occasions when it was necessary to call in
police aid, not in order to carry through the task itself.
Q. Is it true that the chiefs of the German Police assisted
in the conferences which you held with the French
authorities concerning the recruiting of labour?
A. Sometimes representatives of the Higher SS and Police
Leaders were present, and this was true also in the case of
the French where the Minister of the Interior or the
Minister of the Police was present. I neither demanded that
nor proposed it.
Q. But you admit that the representatives of the German
police were present at these discussions? Can you give the
name of one of these representatives? Do you know
Standartenfuehrer Knochen?
A. Standartenfuehrer Knochen was in Paris, and occasionally
he was present at these conferences.
Q. Is it right that the chiefs of the German Police attended
the conferences which the German authorities held concerning
labour problems?
A. To my recollection they attended various conferences, but
that occurred at the suggestion of the military
Commander-in-Chief under whose direction these conferences
took place.
[Page 160]
A. Do you mean the meeting at Berlin?
Q. Yes, the Berlin meeting on 11th July, 1944.
A. I believe Kaltenbrunner attended that conference. This
meeting had been called by Reich Minister Lammers.
Q. Have you never asked Himmler, in the presence of the
Fuehrer, for the help of the SS in the recruiting of labour?
A. At a discussion with the Fuehrer in January,
Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler was present. On this occasion, as
far as I recollect, I pointed out that the programme for the
year 1944 which had been drawn up by the Fuehrer could not
be carried through by me if, in certain areas, the partisan
menace and obstruction were not removed. And that, of
course, could only be done by the authorities who had
jurisdiction there.
Q. You admit, therefore, that you asked Reichsfuehrer SS
Himmler to put his police forces at your disposal?
A. No, it is not correct to put it that way. I have to
contradict you on that. Neither I nor my offices could have
police forces put at our disposal; I merely asked for help
in those areas where I was supposed to carry through
administrative measures and where a pacification and
restoration of order was first necessary. Otherwise I could
not carry through my task.
Q. I am going to show you Document 1292-PS. It has already
been submitted to the Tribunal as Exhibit USA 225. It is the
minutes of a meeting in the presence of the Fuehrer on 4th
January, 1944. It is in my Document Book a little way after
the marked document, and is also marked with a tab.
On Page 3 of the French text, Page 5 of the German text, you
declared:
A. Will you please indicate the place to me? I have not
found it yet. Which page in German?
Q. It must be on Page 5 of the text which was given to you.
A. Yes, that is correct. That is a statement, a rather
abbreviated statement, probably made by Reich Minister
Lammers. But I should like to say emphatically that it can
be interpreted only in this way, that in those areas - they
were very numerous at the time - I could not put into effect
an administration to deal with manpower unless through
executive forces order could be restored. This statement,
therefore, is not quite correct as presented here.
Q. Defendant Sauckel, you told to us only yesterday that you
were formerly a worker. Did you ever consider that a worker
could be taken to his work handcuffed?
A. No, I never considered such a thing, and I now hear for
the first time that I am supposed to have sent or had
workers sent to their places of work handcuffed. I do not
remember that. In any case, I never decreed anything like
that. That I can say.
Q. On 30th August, 1943, you made a speech in Paris to the
General Staff for
the Employment of Labour which you were setting up in
France. I give you
Document 816, which I submitted to the Tribunal this
morning, and I ask you to consult it again. I ask you to
read ...
Mr. President, I think I have made a mistake. I do not think
I submitted that document, and therefore I submit it now,
under Exhibit RF-1517.
BY M. HERZOG:
Q. Will you look at Page 10 of the photostat which has been
given to you - Page 38 of the French translation - the last
line on the page:
[Page 161]
A. I have not found the place. Will you please have it shown
to me?
Q. Have you found it now?
A. Yes, I have found it.
Q. And you considered that handcuffs could be used in the
recruiting of labour?
A. It can only be a statement regarding cases of flagrant
resistance to the authority of the State or the carrying
through of an administrative action. Experience shows us
that this has been found necessary the whole world over. I
only said that everything should be done in an orderly and
correct way. It cannot be understood in any other way. I did
not call that a rule to be applied for the recruitment of
labour.
Q. But you said that to the General Staff for the Employment
of Labour in France. The Tribunal will judge that.
A. Yes, but it must be interpreted that we would do this
only if there was flagrant resistance to an executive
office, otherwise we never intended to do this.
Q. The Tribunal will judge that.
Defendant Sauckel, have you ever created any special police
for the recruiting of labour?
A. No, I established no special police; I explained that
yesterday. That was the suggestion put by the French units
themselves for protection. In a conference I exaggerated and
called it "police" but it was not a police.
Q. Have you heard of a "Committee for Social Security"?
A. Yes, that was talked about.
Q. Have you heard a committee mentioned which was called
"League for Social Order and Justice"?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever drafted any orders or sent any instructions
which advised the institution of these committees?
A. It was proposed, yes, and it was discussed. As far as I
remember, that was in the spring of 1944.
Q. And you claim that you never set up these committees or
drafted any instructions concerning the setting up of these
committees?
A. I have already said that I did that.
Q. You admit that you drafted instructions concerning the
formation of these special police forces?
A. That was done on the basis of discussions which I had
with these French units.
Q. So you did do this?
A. Yes, in agreement with these French units.
Q. Very well.
M. HERZOG: I submit to the Tribunal Document 82; under
Exhibit RF-1518. These are instructions of the defendant
Sauckel for the formation of these special police forces.
The document consists of several sets of instructions. On
Page 6, there is an instruction of 25th January, 1944, from
the defendant Sauckel.
THE PRESIDENT: Where is it?
M. HERZOG: On Page 6, immediately after Document 1292 in my
Document Book you will find instructions from the defendant
Sauckel.
Q. I read:
Subject: Formation of a protection corps for the
execution of the tasks of the labour service in France
and in Belgium during the year 1944. [Page 162]
To the Military Commander for Belgium and the North of
France, Brussels.
A protection corps called 'Committee for Social Peace'
will be created in France and in Belgium to carry out
the tasks which are necessary for the employment of
labour, and especially for Germany, and to strengthen
the executive possibilities. This protection corps will
consist of nationals of these two countries with a
nucleus of German police who will act as leaders. This
protection corps in France will consist of approximately
5,000 men and in Belgium of approximately 1,000 men. I
give the following provisional instructions for the
formation of this protection corps and the
accomplishment of its tasks:
1. Selection of members of the Protection Corps. The
selection will be made in close agreement with the
competent police and SD offices which will screen the
candidates, especially from the point of view of their
loyalty. The selection will be made especially among the
members of political movements favourably disposed to
collaboration with Germany.
2. Organization of the Protection Corps. The Protection
Corps will be directed from central offices to be set up
in Paris and Brussels. The directors of these offices
will be designated by me" - (that is to say, by you,
defendant Sauckel). - "They will take orders from my
delegates in France. In purely police questions, the
Protection Corps will be directed by the Higher SS and
Police Leaders. The regional groups of the Protection
Corps will take orders from the commanders of German
police forces, and the latter will receive instructions
from the Feldkommandantur and from the recruiting
offices as to their participation in actions concerning
labour. The German Police and the services of the SD
will deal with the instructions in police matters;
training as far as the employment of labour is concerned
will be given in so far as is necessary by the experts
of the Feldkommandantur and the recruiting offices.
The members of the Protection Corps will not wear a
uniform; they will however carry firearms.
3. Execution of the tasks. The members of the Protection
Corps assigned to the recruiting offices or to the
Feldkommandantur will be employed in such a way as to
ensure maximum efficiency in the execution of measures
ordered. For example, the forces put at their disposal
must be informed immediately if Frenchmen who have been
summoned by German offices do not appear. They must find
out the domiciles of these persons and bring them to
report according to the instructions of the German
police leader in collaboration with the French and
German police. Furthermore, they must track down
immediately all those who have refused to appear when
summoned, and those who have broken their contracts. In
the interests of an effective executive, it is expedient
that they should receive regularly lists of persons
summoned and persons liable for service to enable them
to act immediately in cases where German directives have
not been complied with.
It is to be presumed that these quick methods coupled
with fitting punishment and immediate publication of the
punishments will have a more deterrent effect than that
achieved by tracking down the men afterwards, as has
been done up to now. Furthermore, members of the
Protection Corps are to keep the German offices informed
of any particular difficulties in recruitment."
A. I already told my attorney yesterday that, in agreement
with French organizations, such a protective unit was set
up, so that on the one hand people who wanted to work could
be protected, and on the other hand administrative
[Page 163]
It was to alleviate the conditions of the local people
themselves.
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(Part 7 of 10)
[M. HERZOG continues his cross examination of Ernst Friedrich Christoph Sauckel]
"(a) Troops which are in action against partisans will,
in addition, be used for the recruiting of labour in the
zones held by partisan bands. Any person who cannot give
a satisfactory reason for staying in that region will be
compulsorily recruited.
Do you still claim that the Wehrmacht did not carry out the
recruiting of labour?
"The present situation demands the use of all imaginable
means for the finding of supplementary labour, because it
is the fighting men who benefit first of all by all
armament measures. In view of this fact all
considerations of internal unrest, the increase of
resistance and such matters must be put in the
background. We must concentrate on giving every help and
support to the General Plenipotentiary for Labour. I
refer to my directives for the co-operation of the
Wehrmacht in the acquisition of workers from France."
Do you still contend that the Wehrmacht was not used for the
recruiting of labour?
"Success will depend mainly on what German executive
forces are put at our disposal. An action cannot be
carried through with native executive
forces."
Do you recognize that declaration?
"The application of the most severe measures for forced
labour service, police action or the use of handcuffs
must be done by us with the most correct demeanour."
That is what you declared on 30th August, 1943, before the
General Staff for the Employment of Labour, when they met in
Paris.
"Berlin, 25th January, 1944. Secret.
(1) To the Military Commander in France, Paris.
And all that, defendant, is signed "Sauckel." Do you still
claim that you did not form a special police corps in France
and Belgium?