[Page 113]

A. At the time of the seizure of power I was an adjutant in a Gruppenstab. And if I think back to that time today, I remember that I believed at first that, on the basis of the tremendous political tensions and conflicts of the twelve preceding cars, precisely at that time a tremendous eruption of pent-up fury and hatred and reprisals was bound to come. I wish to state, however, since I experienced this period of time personally, that I could only see and notice that the seizure of power was effected as a whole quietly and reasonably, and that also the old SA veteran who still remembered the fighting days remained calm and prudent.

Q. In what light, however, did you see the various excesses which occurred later on, from 1933 to 1934, according to the statement which you have now given?

A. In my opinion, the excesses which occurred later, in spite of the discipline and order which had been commanded, could only have been committed by a few individuals or small groups, who did not understand the sense of our socialist revolution, its scope and its limitations; or on the other hand, by individuals who were thrown off their balance and could not regain their inner equilibrium.

DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Does the prosecution wish to cross-examine?

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON:

Q. Witness, you have told the Tribunal that the SA were trained only in political soldiership. Did not "political soldiership" mean that the SA men had special privileges in the State which the ordinary German citizen had not?

[Page 114]

Q. Was not the SA man one of the National Socialists elite?

A. The SA man was the political soldier within the movement and nothing else.

DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, our transmission apparatus does not work. We do not understand the questions. The witness only understands them in part because he knows some English.

MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON: Would it be possible for Dr. Boehm to come and sit here? The German switch appears to be working all right here.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I think so. If his earphones are not working properly he can get another pair.

BY MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON:

Q. Witness, was the SA man subject to the same restraints of behaviour as an ordinary German citizen?

A. To a much greater extent. The SA man performed his services voluntarily, and he was particularly subject to the law. I, as Chief of the Office for Social Welfare, have dealt for years with the turning out of thousands of SA men, and supported them in their work. I had to take care of many poor and needy SA men through that vast welfare organization for many years until close to the end.

Q. I ask you - perhaps the translation did not come through right - were there the same restraints, or restrictions, on the behaviour of the SA men as there were on ordinary German citizens?

A. Mr. Prosecutor, I would ask you to tell me what restraints you mean. I do not know of any essential restraints such as you mention.

Q. Is your answer no? There were no restraints? Or is it yes?

A. I asked a question of the Prosecutor. What restraints did the SA man not have in contrast to others? That is how I understood the question.

Q. Was the SA man as free in his behaviour, or was the SA man more free in his behaviour, than the ordinary German citizen?

A. (No response.)

Q. If you cannot answer it, have a look for a moment at the general service regulations which you talked about just now.

MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON: My Lord, that is on Page 30-A of Document Book B. It is Document 2820-PS, and is Exhibit USA 247.

BY MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON:

Q. Look first at Article I. I think it is on Page 9. Have you got it?

A. Yes.

Q. "The SA man is the political soldier of Adolf Hitler;" and a few lines further down: "He therefore enjoys special prestige and has definite rights in the State". Do you deny that those words mean what they say? Was not the SA man in a privileged position?

A. (No response.)

Q. Was not the SA man in a privileged position.

A. I can only say that as far as I was an SA man, and as much as I know about SA men, SA men were not in a privileged position. Besides, we are concerned here with the SA service regulation of 1933, which, according to my knowledge, was rescinded essentially in 1934, and -

Q. I do not care when it was rescinded. It was issued on the 12th December, 1933 was it not? And that was after the Nazis were in power?

A. (No response.)

Q. Well, you can see it says so on the top of it. Tell me what those definite rights in the State were that the SA man is said to have by Article I. What were the definite rights in the State? What did it mean? Every SA man read that book?

[Page 115]

Q. You cannot tell me what they are, I suppose. Well, look at that Article 10 on Page 13. Have you got Article 10, Page 13?

A. Ten? Yes.

Q. "The exalted position of the SA man may not be degraded by insulting, slighting or unjust treatment."

How was the SA man "exalted" above any other German citizens?

A. In my opinion, he only had a particular responsibility, or special duty.

Q. What did it mean when it says he had "an exalted position," and he must not be insulted? He could insult other German citizens, could he not?

A. (No response.)

Q. Was the SA man exalted above the Army? Yes or no?

A. I have already said that, as far as I am concerned, I never had or assumed any special privilege, and therefore I cannot imagine that the SA man had or could assume any particular privilege.

Q. Very well, then; that is your answer. Now, look at Article 18, on Page 17:

"The SA man may use weapons which are entrusted to him only in execution of his service or for legal self- protection."

A. I have already said that the SA man could be used for emergency service (Notdienst). With regard to these service regulations, I would like to say that in my opinion they had been issued under Roehm at the time

Q. I do not want to go into that. Roehm was Chief of Staff of the SA, and what he issued presumably was law to the SA. And he says that they may use weapons only in execution of their service or for legal self-protection.

Now, I ask you again, apart from self-protection, what case could there be where the SA man's service would require the use of a weapon? If you cannot answer, say so.

Q. I can only say what I have already said in answering a question of my counsel, that the SA was armed only to the extent that it was active in carrying out functions of the State.

Q. Are you suggesting that the purpose for which they might use their arms might be a military purpose, then?

A. (No response.)

Q. Are you suggesting they might use them for a military purpose, if they were called for that purpose?

A. I have said emergency service, especially auxiliary police service or police service, as far as the SA was called on to do so.

Q. You say you are not asserting they would use them in the Army, but you are asserting they might use them to assist the police, are you?

A. For police emergency service, or police auxiliary service.

Q. Do you mean, then, that when they were under the police auxiliaries this regulation in the General Service Regulations of the SA was the regulation that applied to them? Or did police regulations apply?

A. (No response.)

Q. Did they take the commands of the SA, or did they take the commands of the police when they were auxiliary policemen? That is what I want to know.

A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have only stated what I have seen myself. I do not know what. has been decreed in detail according to the service regulations. The SA man, as I have seen it, was armed in so far as he was used in the State or police auxiliary service, or emergency service.

Q. Can you tell me any other case besides police service where he would have to use his arms, except in self-defence? Any other case?

A. (No response.)

[Page 116]

A. I can only repeat again and again that in my opinion -

THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you can answer the question. It is either right or it is wrong. You can say, you were with the SA all this time.

THE WITNESS: If the SA man used the weapons without being used himself for emergency service, then he became liable to punishment. Apart from that, the SA man was used only for emergency service.

BY MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON:

Q. The SA man, I put it to you, became liable for punishment if he used his weapons for a purpose that the SA did not approve of. But what I am saying now is that he was encouraged - indeed, ordered - to use his weapons for actions which the SA did approve of?

A. (No response.)

Q. Well, if you cannot answer that, I will leave it.

Look in that little book at one more thing. Look at Page 33, No. 6 of the punishment order; Page 33. Have you got Page 33?

A. Yes, I have Page 33.

Q. Now, you see the last sentence of the first paragraph, about punishment:

"Right is what is advantageous to the movement and wrong what harms it." Have you got that?

A. No.

Q. "Right is what is advantageous to the Movement and wrong what harms it."

A. Yes, I have found that.

Q. Now, I suggest to you, witness, that what is advantageous to the movement, such as SA actions, is precisely the thing that the SA arms and weapons were meant to be used for; is that right or wrong? You can say yes or no.

A. The SA leaders were used under the command of their leaders, and they had to know for what purposes they were allowed to use their SA men.

Q. I do not think that has got much to do with my question. Look again at that sentence, "Right is what is advantageous to the movement and wrong what harms it." Does not that show perfectly clearly that the Nazi Party regarded the SA as a privileged party who were entitled to commit crimes if they were advantageous to the movement?

A. The SA man was led, and could not on the basis of that regulation act as an individual, as he wanted to.

MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON: My Lord, I have only got one more document.

There are only two or three questions on it.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

MR. BARRINGTON: My Lord, the document is the first document in Book C. It is D-918. Oh, I beg your Lordship's pardon. It is Book 16-B. The document is D-918 and it will become Exhibit GB 594.

BY MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON:

Q. Witness, I am not going to take you into detail in regard to this document. You can see what it is. It is Lutze's Training Directive for 1939, and you will see Page 2 the date on which it was issued was 4th November, 1938, which was before Hitler's order about the pre- and post-military training. Now I have only one point to put to you on this document. You have maintained just now, have you not, that the training of the SA was predominantly for sport; is that right?

[Page 117]

Q. But did not you say that the emphasis was placed upon sport and not upon military tendencies? If you did not say that, admit it.

A. I cannot remember the details of what was said before. I can only say one thing, that the SA only had a wehrsportliches (defence-sports) training; including physical and intellectual training and training of the will- power as has been described here in this book.

Q. You do not deny then that that training had a military tendency behind it; do you deny that? The training for the Sports Insignia had a military tendency behind it?

A. We received no directives for any kind of military training. We are concerned here with moral education, comprising, as I should like to point out again, physical and intellectual training, and training of the will-power, and nothing else.

Q. Well, all I want you to do is to run your eye down certain passages of this document. Look at Page 7 of Lutze's Training Directive for 1939. You will see that Page 7 deals with the first training period, from November, 1938, until the beginning of February, 1939, and at the bottom part of the page you will see, set out in a certain sequence, the items on which particular attention is laid: Marching, drill, shooting, field training, and last of all, sport. Can you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Now turn to Page 3 - I am sorry, Page 10 - Page 9 first. Turn on to Page 9, which gives you a similar thing for the second training period, from February to April, 1939. In the middle of the page you will see, underlined again: Drill, firing, training, and last of all, sport. Do you see that?

A. I do not know, Mr. Prosecutor, what you are referring to now. I have it now.

Q. Now, turn on to Page 10, where you see the same thing for the third and last training period, which is May to June, 1939. On Page 10 you will see the same thing: drill, musketry, field training, and last of all, sport. Is it not perfectly clear that sport was very much an excuse and a means to an end?

MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON: My Lord, I am not proposing to put any more questions to this witness, as the general topics will be dealt with in the cross-examination of the witness Juttner.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, we will adjourn now.

(The Tribunal adjourned until 13th August, 1946, at 1000 hours.)

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