The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

The Trial of Adolf Eichmann
Session 60
(Part 2 of 6)


Q. Perhaps you can tell the Court what positions you occupied there.

A. I was the Chairman of the Jewish National Fund. From 1942 until June 1944, I was a member of the Relief and Rescue Committee.

Q. Mr. Rosenberg, when you were in Budapest after the German occupation, did you have in your possession a particular certificate which enabled you to move around in the city more freely?

A. Yes.

Q. On what basis did you obtain this certificate?

A. After the occupation I began working in Sip Street. This was the place where the Jews concentrated all their activities. There I ran the department which we called "The Department for the Provincial Towns." As director of this department, I received this certificate from Dr. Kasztner.

Q. Perhaps I could show you a copy of that certificate. Can you tell us whether this is what it looked like?

A. Yes.

State Attorney Bach: Your Honours, the original certificate has already been submitted to the Court. This is one of the certificates given to the Accused for the purposes of identification. The certificate was given the number T/37(215).

Presiding Judge: Is this a copy of that certificate?

State Attorney Bach: Yes. Where did you obtain this rubber stamp, reading "Einsatzkommando der Sicherheitspolizei und der SD" (Operations Unit of the Security Police and the SD)?

Witness Rosenberg: I received this certificate directly from Dr. Kasztner, and I don't know where the stamp was impressed on it.

State Attorney Bach: I beg to submit this document. The Court will find a copy of the Accused's signature on page 2 of the document, whereby he confirmed that the document had been shown to him.

Presiding Judge: This document will be marked T/1201.

State Attorney Bach: Mr. Rosenberg, perhaps you can tell us what function was assigned to you within the framework of the Central Jewish Committee?

Witness Rosenberg: Perhaps I should divide up my duties into the period before the occupation and the period after the occupation?

Q. Yes, tell us what were your duties before and after the occupation.

A. Before the occupation, there was a Committee for Relief and Rescue. Its function was to deal with refugees who crossed the frontiers from Poland, Slovakia, Yugoslavia, and so on. Hungary at that time was a kind of country of refuge. Amongst the tasks of this committee was to attend, in every respect, to the needs of our brethren who had crossed the borders and were living in Hungary as illegal residents. That was its function until the occupation. The moment Hungary was occupied by the Germans, we first of all were confronted with the problem of what would happen to those people who, up to that point, had found shelter in Hungary. They needed papers; even if these papers were forged, they could, with their help, also live as Jews. Now it was essential for us to find various solutions for these Jews. We also had to face the question - what would happen to the Jews of Hungary?

The Rescue Committee assigned two parallel tasks to me - one was to deal with the provincial towns, with the Jews in the provincial towns. And if I were to define this more clearly, my task was to send money to these towns, where ghettos were beginning to be established, and young men who were able to travel. For, in those days, Jews were already forbidden to travel by train. We dispatched these young men to the ghettos to bring them false papers and cash, money, and try to persuade those persons who were somehow able to do so to leave the ghetto and to go over to the Aryan side, as we called it at that time. We carried out these activities, first of all, with the help of the money available to us, the fund that Dr. Kasztner and Offenbach were already operating. We also tried to obtain money from the Jewish community.

Before the occupation, there were various Jewish communities. After the occupation, they united in a way, even if it was not formal, nevertheless in practice for this purpose of saving what could be saved. We tried to centralize all the funds. I also tried, and on occasion succeeded, in transferring money for this purpose to several towns.

To our great regret, we did not have much time at our disposal to deal with these matters, owing to the fact that, by the time we found our feet, by the time we found the right people, the ways and means, the monies, by that time there were hardly any Jews left in the provincial towns any more. The majority of those with whom we succeeded in communicating did not accept the information we sent them, or were unable to do anything about it. They could not leave the ghettos.

Q. What do you mean by "did not accept?" They did not physically receive them?

A. They did not regard this message as being really a way by which they could save themselves. What did we say to them? We told them: "You have to come to Budapest." There was no other way, with those papers we had sent them. We were not able to send tens of thousands.

Presiding Judge: Who told them to move to Budapest?

Witness Rosenberg: To leave the provincial towns, we told these Jews to come to Budapest, where they would be able to hide in the "big sea" and to find some form of underground.

Q. This was your advice?

A. This was our advice in respect of those who were unable to cross the border. That was one activity. I am talking of the activity in which we engaged as the Department for Provincial Towns. We also had another function which I will mention later.

State Attorney Bach: First let us talk about the provincial towns. Did you succeed in smuggling out some of those also, or certain numbers?

Witness Rosenberg: Only a few.

Presiding Judge: The witness has now mentioned three matters: To cross over to the Aryan side, or perhaps that was the same as what he said afterwards about moving to Budapest. I should like to understand your evidence.

Witness Rosenberg: There is no contradiction here, no difference. It was the same whether the person came to Budapest, for at the same time he would have to be provided with suitable papers, so that he could enter Budapest and go underground as an Aryan. To smuggle him out, that was a different matter. If he was able to cross the border - and the provincial towns were close to the border, to Romania for example - and there were Jews who crossed the borders.

State Attorney Bach: Was this also organized by you, or was it done with your assistance, or was it done by these people on their own initiative?

Witness Rosenberg: I should stress that as the Department for the Provincial Towns, we merely wanted to give information to the people who were in the ghettos. We did not send our men there to organize public meetings, but we passed on this information to people whom we had known from the Zionist Organization, in order to advise them that this was the solution open to them. "In this way, we can assist you," and we did so with the help of the money and the personnel we had at our disposal within the Jewish community.

Q. That was one activity. What was the other one?

A. I had a second task on the Rescue Committee. Also before the occupation we handled forged papers, smuggling people out, and so on. With regard to young boys, we organized four categories of rescue. Firstly, we took care of those whom we could supply with false papers. For instance, we prepared several lists from the university. We supplied them with such papers, and they went over to the Aryan side. We furnished them with money. Then there were those whom, because of the Jewish problem, we were unable to help by supplying papers. We tried to smuggle them across the borders. Such borders were available to us for a "tour"* {*The Hebrew word "tiyul" (excursion) used as a cover name for crossing the border illegally.} of Romania or Yugoslavia, for some of our comrades. We had one part which we called "Re-tour" - we sent them back to Slovakia, for at that time Slovakia was quiet.

Presiding Judge: What was that word?

Witness Rosenberg: "Re-tour." They originally came to us from Slovakia, and we were now obliged to send them back. We had information - misleading to our great regret, but then we thought it was right. After that we saw to it - and this was the second method - we tried to place these comrades in apartments, so that they should not mingle with non-Jews, that they should live there. We supplied them with food.

State Attorney Bach: What was the extent of this escape activity, the "tours" or "re-tours"? To approximately how many people are you referring, people whom you succeeded in smuggling out in this way?

Witness Rosenberg: We did not keep statistics, but I could assess it today at about six to seven hundred persons to Romania, transferred by us; to Yugoslavia there were not more than fifty to sixty, and in the "re-tours" there were hundreds. Almost all those comrades, for whom we could not find an Aryan solution or a solution of escaping to another country, went back to Slovakia.

Q. How many of you were engaged in this work on behalf of the committee?

A. The Rescue Committee?

Q. Yes.

A. The Rescue Committee was divided up - each one had his role. Every member had his own task. The task of dealing with refugees, and rescue - that was my job, that is to say, to organize the rescue. Others had different jobs. I was given the responsibility of funding. I myself did not deal with any form of smuggling. I did not accompany any young men. I saw to their being provided with money. I made it possible for them to falsify the papers which they needed; I found the funds required to build the bunkers. There were also flats which were called "bunkers," and there were real bunkers, places not suitable for normal habitation.

Q. Where did you build these bunkers, and what was their object?

A. In two places, with which I dealt personally. One was in Buda, the other half of Budapest. We built one in Satmar, a town not far from the Romanian border. We did this because from there the escape route was into Romania, and this was a town not far from Romania. Sometimes we did not manage to arrange for the escape on the same night, within twenty-four hours. Then we put the people into a bunker such as this, since this town was already "judenrein"; we had no other alternative but to put them into bunkers. This was one of my responsibilities which, again, I did not carry out myself.

Q. Mr. Rosenberg, do you also know anything about the negotiations with members of the Gestapo concerning the release of, or the granting of exit permits to, Jews from Hungary, in exchange for monetary payments?

A. I was aware of all stages of the negotiations.

Q. Did you also deal with it personally, or did it only become known to you from other colleagues on that committee?

A. There was an inner committee of four members - the late Komoly, the late Dr. Kasztner, Szilagy (who now lives in Budapest) and Jenoe Fraenkel, and myself - which received information on what was going on almost every day.

Q. Did you also take part in this committee, or how did you receive the information?

A. I took part.

Q. Did you participate in meetings, together with these four?

A. I participated in this committee, together with these four.

Q. Were you one of the members of this inner committee?

A. I was a member of the inner committee, and my task was to meet, after we received this information, with the members of the Zionist Organization - which, of course, was illegal - and to pass on to them the information we received.

Presiding Judge: Did you have contact with the Germans?

Witness Rosenberg: No.

State Attorney Bach: You only received information during those joint meetings?

Witness Rosenberg: Yes.

Q. How many times a week did this committee meet?

A. One could say that it was almost every day or two. When necessary, we met even more than once a day. But we met almost every day or two with Kasztner or Joel Brand, whoever brought us the information.

Q. Did you know which members of the Gestapo actually determined the sum that had to be paid, that each Jew had to pay, if he wanted to get out in this way?

A. I knew that all the negotiations were conducted solely with Eichmann. That is to say, I also heard of other names involved in this matter, but only in an auxiliary capacity. But the one who determined every question that came before us and any variation of these proposals which we received, or which we passed on - all of this was brought before Eichmann.

Q. Did you also try to equip your colleagues with arms?

A. We received a notice from the committee which was based in Istanbul that we were to place Dr. Moshe Bar-Zvi - this is his name today, then he was called Dr. Schweiger - in charge of self-defence. But the Germans seized Dr. Schweiger two days after they entered Hungary, and then this task was entrusted to me. And one of the tasks that I attended to was also to see that the young men should purchase and equip themselves with pistols and ammunition, in quantities that were not considerable in relation to the troubles which we faced. It was not our intention to plan a revolt in Hungary. This was not our purpose.

But we consciously thought that we should have a pistol whenever it might be necessary, when we would face the final danger. We did not have any illusions. We knew exactly what would happen to us if we were to fall into their hands, that they would send us off to the Auschwitz camp.

There was also another activity that I concerned myself with which was the supply of funds to make these purchases, and they bought a number of pistols - between twelve and sixteen - and ammunition for them.

Q. At those joint meetings of the committee, was there ever a discussion to the effect that Eichmann, or members of his Section, were prepared to approve of a "tour" of young men, or halutzim across the border, and that they were ready to assist in this?

A. I never heard of such a thing. On the contrary, it was clear to us that if anyone participating in such a "tour" should fall into the hands of the Germans, they would assuredly transfer them at first, according to the practice of those days, to Kistarcsa. This was the place where they assembled all such people. I also know of a case where, in Kolozsvar, they caught a group of youths who had all gone to a particular hotel; they were most certainly seized a few hours later when they came out, and were transferred. But I do not know what happened to all of them later. I only know that one of them is alive - I met one of them here - but in regard to the others, I do not know what happened.

Q. Do you know about the group that left for Bergen-Belsen and thereafter for Switzerland?

A. Yes.

Q. In fact, as I understand, you were one of them?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know what part, if any Becher played in arranging that train, or in placing the Jews on that train?

A. I know that when we had already crossed the border, I met about sixteen people who told me that they had been included in this transport because they had given money to Becher. And they spoke of very large sums. That is what I know of this matter. Until then, in connection with Becher, I had only heard of the famous deal whereby the Baroness Weiss had been allowed to leave Hungary in exchange for her property. And we were told then that Becher was the one who had dealt with this matter. I came across this name in Bergen-Belsen, en route with these sixteen men.

Q. Do you know how much money was paid to the Germans for this transport?

A. Of the sixteen?


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