The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

The Trial of Adolf Eichmann
Session 62
(Part 4 of 6)


Q. Is that how it happened?

A. Yes. Within the framework of the rescue of Polish refugees, we set up groups, mainly of young people, on the Romanian and Yugoslav borders. For example, there was the Mohacs group. It was a very well-known group which maintained contact with the Yugoslav partisans. There was another group on the Romanian border.

At my last meeting with Kasztner and Brand, I presented them with this plan to rescue as many people as possible. I remember this dramatic meeting in a hotel, at which Brand and Kasztner were present, as well as Kasztner's wife. I then explained the rescue plan to them, which was based on the fact that the political situation in Romania was still such that there was a Polish consulate - as yet free - and it was under the control of the Polish government-in-exile in London, in the same way as the consulate in Budapest was until March 1944.

I kept in touch with the consulate, which was also in contact with the Polish underground. I promised them that all those who managed to leave Hungary, both Poles and Hungarians - it did not matter which, there were also Polish Christians - would receive from the consulate in Bucharest (the consul was Sibarski) documents of Aryan Christians, and also certain assistance. We carried out this plan, I myself, together with three other friends, again from all the youth defence movements, and one of them was Ya'akov Gurfein, who has testified here.

Presiding Judge: Pardon me, Mr. Hausner, it will be easier for me to follow this evidence, if you would tell me in a couple of words what is its purpose.

Attorney General: It aims at concluding the evidence. I want the witness to tell us how he left Hungary and crossed to Romania.

Witness Zimmerman: We went by way of Kolozsvar and through Turda, and afterwards we arrived a Bucharest.

Q. There you met Dr. Filderman and Dr. Zissu?

A. Yes. There I met Dr. Filderman and Zissu, and I presented them with memoranda on the situation. I met with the members of the Palestine Office and, in conjunction with the Rescue Committee in Istanbul, we continued with our rescue activities.

Q. You left Romania in 1944?

A. Yes, on the ship "Kazbek," this time as Jews, for Christians were no longer allowed to depart.

Q. Were other ships, which then sailed from Romania to Palestine, or in the direction of Palestine, attacked by anyone?

A. Yes.

Q. By whom?

A. The ship on which I sailed, the "Kazbek"...

Q. I am asking about other ships.

A. Other ships - these were the "Marina" and two others - were attacked by forces which came from the Bulgarian border, where there were forces...

Q. And they were sunk?

A. Yes, they were sunk.

Presiding Judge: Attacked by whom?

Witness Zimmerman: By forces which set out from the Bulgarian border. These were almost certainly either torpedo boats or other warships.

Q. German or others?

A. German.

Q. Do you know that personally?

A. In Bulgaria, we knew that in Varna and in other places on the Bulgarian shore, there were bases of German warships.

Q. Were these other ships - on which the witness was not a passenger?

Attorney General: He was not a passenger, for otherwise he would not have been standing here today.

Witness Zimmerman: But I know about them.

Presiding Judge: It happens sometimes that a ship is attacked and the passengers survive.

Attorney General: None of these, to my regret, Your Honour, were saved.

Witness Zimmerman: I know about this from a tragic experience. For, on the ship on which I came, I saved a little girl whom I brought along. We took her in a sack. We smuggled her aboard, for they did not lightly allow children on the ship. The mother of the girl - the name of the child was Susika Spiegler, aged three - was on the second ship which was attacked - the "Marina" - she was drowned in this other ship and never arrived here. The child remained an orphan, she is in this country, but I do not know where she is now.

Presiding Judge: Dr. Servatius, have you any questions to the witness?

Dr. Servatius: I have no questions to the witness.

Judge Raveh: When you spoke of people who were making a pretence, whom did you mean?

Witness Zimmerman: I said that many of the men in charge of the ghetto, or some of them, and later those in charge of the forced labour camps - amongst those whom I encountered and at whose hands I suffered - were also those who, after carrying out some atrocity, felt the need, on occasion, to prove that they also had human feelings.

Q. Were these the ones who provided you, at the time, with information?

A. They spoke later, both they, and also those who were in charge, on behalf of the Jews.

Q. What interests me is whether these were the people who gave you the information?

A. The men who gave the information were the members of the Gestapo whose names I mentioned, and others.

Q. And did they speak out of pretence or not?

A. I don't suppose it was only a pretence. Perhaps there was a certain need for them to unburden themselves. The matter of pretence referred to the few humane acts which they performed.

Q. And you believe that it was possible to rely on what they said?

A. They used to discuss these matters in an entirely natural way. They never thought that we would succeed in getting out and relating these matters.

Judge Halevi: In what year was this?

Witness Zimmerman: At the end of 1942, 1943.

Q. Apart from the fact that they were members of the Gestapo, what was their duty there?

A. Kunde and Heinrich were actually the men in charge of the ghetto, and for a long time, until the large "actions", they determined the fate of everyone in the ghetto, who was to live, and who would die. They were responsible for the liquidation of centres of underground resistance existing in the ghetto. As experts on these questions, they had powers of decision, and their superiors made them take part in consultations, and took counsel with them on all these matters.

Q. Did they travel to Germany, or what kind of consultations were these?

A. I am talking of the men who were also in charge locally. Their superior was Hase. He was an officer of senior rank. He used to come to the ghetto only on rare occasions.

Q. Generally speaking, the information that you received through them, in what direction did it point to, generally, as regards responsibility?

A. It pointed to the fact that there was a certain plan. At first they tried to tell us that it was a plan for making the Jews more productive, and that it was a plan for which the people at Headquarters in Berlin were responsible, and they themselves acted according to instructions. Naturally, they used to implement them brutally and with enthusiasm. This was already their own effort. But the whole plan, the processes and the methods of implementation, were according to a plan that was worked out and passed on to them by that department responsible for solving the Jewish problem.

They also told us, at first, that Lublin was going to be the place of concentration for Jews. They linked this with the stories about Madagascar. And since because of the war this could not be carried out, they wanted to concentrate the Jews in ghettos. As this, too, was difficult, they wanted to assemble many Jews in one place in Lublin. Possibly because this was something sensational, they allowed three men to go out to see the place. They gave them a travel permit.

Q. Why did they give you the permit?

A. They wanted us to see that these Jews were still alive, and, indeed, they were then still alive. There were not many who were willing to go. We took advantage of this and allowed our members to go.

Presiding Judge: Mr. Zimmerman, I want to say to you, now that you have ended your testimony, that I should not like you to leave here with bad feelings. There was no intention to belittle the importance of your activities and of those of the others. Whatever remarks I made, I first of all made as expressing my personal opinion, and they referred to the legal weight of certain statements in this evidence. I hope this is clear to you as a jurist.

You have now completed your testimony.

Attorney General: I call Mr. Leslie Gordon. He was deported from Budapest to Poland. He was one of the 1941 deportees to Kamenets-Podolski, of whom we have heard; subsequently, he returned to Budapest and saw the Accused. The witness at present resides in Canada. He will testify in English.* {*No grammatical corrections have been made in the evidence given by the witness}

[The witness is sworn.]

Presiding Judge: What is your full name?

Witness: Leslie Gordon.

Attorney General: Mr. Gordon, do you now live in Canada?

Witness Gordon: I live in Canada, in Montreal.

Q. You were born in Budapest?

A. Yes.

Q. Your parents had come from Poland?

A. My father was born in Poland.

Q. Hence you were regarded as Polish citizens?

A. According to the Hungarian laws, we were Polish citizens.

Q. What happened to you in June 1941?

A. In June 1941, when the Nazi hordes overran Poland, we heard rumours that the Polish citizens will be taken out of Hungary.

Q. When you say the Germans occupied Poland, which part of Poland do you mean?

A. That was the east part of Poland.

Q. If I may lead you with a few questions, Mr. Gordon. You were interned by the Hungarian authorities?

A. Yes, we were interned by the Hungarian authorities.

Q. You were brought to the then Polish border?

A. Yes, we were taken first to the Budapest synagogue. There we have been told that orders came from the Germans, since the Hungarians had no authority over the German occupied territory, and these orders came strictly from Germany.

Q. What happened then?

A. We were taken from the synagogue next morning, to the Hungarian rail station, where we have been placed in passenger cars, and we have been taken to the border of Koeroesmezoe.

Q. And to whom were you handed over at the border?

A. At Koeroesmezoe, we were handed over to the Hungarian gendarmerie until overnight. But next morning, we were loaded up on German trucks - clearly visible German licence plates on them.

Q. Who drove these trucks, and who were the guards?

A. We could not see the drivers until we arrived to the place where we have been taken, but then they turned out to be Germans.

Q. What Germans?

A. SS.

Q. How did you recognize them as being SS men?

A. From the skeleton (skull) on their caps - 'Totenkopf'.

Q. Where did the Germans take you to?

A. We were passing close by several small villages, and then we were passing through Kolomea until we came to about two or three miles - or kilometres - outside of Kolomea, where we had been told: "Schweine-Juden, herunter!" (Jewish Pigs, get down).

Q. So you got off?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you go?

A. We got down. Some of our luggage was left in the trucks - which we were not allowed to take down - so the fifty kilogrammes which was allowed by the Hungarian authorities to take with us - some of them left in the truck which the Germans have stolen from us.

Q. So where did you go?

A. Once we got down from the trucks, they put up two machine- guns each side of the road and told us: "Go eastwards. Don't come back or don't even look back." Some of the people had to do their hygienic doings on the side, and they were shot right on the spot.

Q. By whom?

A. By the SS.

Q. What did you do? Tell us just what you yourself did.

A. Well, we were together. My father was 58, my mother - she was 43. My brother was 22, I was 21, my sister was 19, my brother was 16, another brother was 14, a sister was eight, and my little brother was five. We were trying to keep together and go along on the road - as has been told by the "brave" SS.

Q. Who, of all those members of your family, remained alive?

A. Only myself. One of my sisters, she got exempted from the deportation because she was married to a Hungarian citizen, and she is in Canada with me.

Q. But of those who were sent on their way there, you are the only survivor?

A. As far as I know, yes.

Judge Halevi: Are you referring to the members of your family or to the whole transport?

Attorney General: We shall still come to the whole transport. How many people were there in that transport, together with you yourself?

Witness Gordon: In this group, we were about three to four hundred, approximately. I cannot say the exact figures, but it was three to four hundred. I remember we occupied about eight trains, eight cars, and on each from forty to sixty people were in, most of them children. Like our family - we were seven children. Other families had eight or nine children; it consisted of two-thirds children under fourteen years of age.

Q. How many people, of those who were with you in the group, survived?

A. As far as I know, all by myself.

Q. So I understand, you went northwards from Kolomea to a town called Tluste?

A. That's right.

Q. How did you live on the way?

A. On the way, we have been exchanging our clothes and little remaining jewellery. My mother took off her ring, my father took off his ring and his watch, and we exchanged clothes with the people of the district.


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