[UseNet headers trimmed]

From: Mark Van Alstine
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden ?

In article <4psh8e$9im@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer wrote:

Richard J. Green wrote:

The less intelligent deniers: Giwer, Moran, Ceacaa, and Beaulieu* have tried and tried, but have been unable to present evidence as to the physical impossibility. I put the * by Beaulieu beacuse he actually does appear to have a brain (demonstrated by his ability to do some trivial calculations) unlike the other 3.

"Hey, Greenie, you are the person supporting a 20 minute cremation time."

From the Internet Cremation Society FAQ:

[http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml]

"Q. At what temperature is the cremation done and is this a standard or do some facilities vary? How long does the actual cremation process take and does this also vary with temperature?

"A. The temperature at which cremations are done vary based upon the retort manufacturer, but most machines operate between 1,500 to 1,900 degrees F. The actual cremation time again varies depending upon the type of machine. Low capacity retorts take approximately 3 hours to complete a cremation while high capacity machines take less than one hour. In addition to the type of retort, the size of the individual and the number of cremations conducted during the day also affect the time. For example, in the retort we operate, the first cremation of the day takes about two hours and the second takes about an hour. That is because the retort already has a high internal temperature at the beginning of the second cremation.

Hmmm. From less than one hour to three hours. Not to mention subsequent cremations take less time than the first. Also, lets not forget that cremation is a strictly regulated affair. Even in Nazi Gemrany it was. The deceased were cremated seperately (and completely) and the remains carefully removed between cremations to minimize any mixing.

In comparison, the incineration of the Nazi victims of homicidal gassing at Auschwitz was done with no such restrictions. This can be seen in the Operating Instructions for Coke-Fired Topf Double-Muffle Incineration Furnace:

"As soon as the remains of the corpses have fallen from the chamotte grid to the ash collection channel below, they should be pulled forward towards the ash removal door, using the scraper. Here they can be left a furhter 20 minutes to be fully consumed, then the ashes should be placed in a container and set aside to cool.... In the meantime, further corpses can be introduced one after the other into the chambers." (Technique, p.136.)

[Note: the operating instruction fo the triple-muffle furnaces are the same.]

This clearly depicts an incineration process where the remains of the victims are clearly mixed with each other. What this means, then, after a corspes of the previous charge had been consumed to the point where they fell through the chamotte, the next charge was added, being consumed above on the chamotte, while the partially consumed remains of the previous charge(s) were being fully consumed in the ash channel.

What this means is in reality the incineration of the victims didn't take just "20 minutes" (or 30 minutes, etc.) but an additional 20 minutes to be fully consumed in the ash channels of the furnaces. But as this extra 20 minutes didn't impact the charging into and the incineration of the corspes in the muffles, it was never, I believe, counted as part of the incineration cycle-time. So, the actual time a corpse that took "20 minutes" to incinerate was really 40 minutes, while the cycle-time for charging the muffles with corpses was indeed 20 minutes (or 30 minutes, etc). Sounds pretty much like "less than one hour" achieved in some crematory furnaces today....

"You are the one supporting 2 kg of coke for each body after the first."

According the Walter Müller, of the engineering firm Allach, in regards to the fuel consumption of incineration furnaces:

"Müller claimed that there was a direct relation between increased use and increased economy. If the cold furnace required 175 kilograms (kg) of coke to start up a new incineration, it needed only 100 kg. if it had been used the day before; a second and third incineration on the same day would not require any extra fuel thanks to the compressed air; and those that followed would call for only small amounts of extra energy..." (Anatomy, pp.185-186.)

How small is "amounts of extra energy?" Two kg of coke's worth?

It is also interesting to note that according to the Operating Instructions for Coke-Fired Topf Double-Muffle Incineration Furnace that:

"After each incineration, the temperature rises in the furnace. For this reason, care be taken that the internal temperature does not rise above 1100C (white heat).... Thsi increase in temeprature can be avoided by introducing additional fresh air." (Technique, p.136.)

This, of course, supports the assertion that the combustion of the corpses acted as fuel for the incineratoin process, thus reducing the amount of coke needed to heat the furnace.

In addition, Henryk Tauber, a Sonderkommando in Krema II, testified:

"...As I have already said, there were five furnaces in Krematorium II, each with three muffles for cremating corpses and heated by two coke-fired hearths. The fire flues of the hearths came out above the [ash] collection boxes of the two side muffles. Thus the flames went first round the two side muffles then heated the centre one, from where the combustion gases were led out below the furnace, between the two firinf hearths. Thanks to this arrangement, the incineration process for the corspes of the side muffles differed from that of the centre muffle. The corpses of <<musulmans>> or wasted people with no fat burned rapidly in the side muffles and slowly in the center one. Conversely, the corspes of the people gassed directly on arrival, not being wasted, burned better in the center muffle.... During the incineration of such corpses, we used the coke only to light the fire of furnace initially, for fatty corpses burned of their own accord thanks the combustion of the body fat. On occasion, when the coke was in short supply, we would put some straw and wood in the ash bins...under the muffles, and once the fat of the corpse began to burn the corpses would catch light themselves...." (Ibid. p.489.)

"...At the begining of the cremation process, the furnaces were heated only by their fireboxes and the charges burned slowly. Later on, as cremations succeeded one another, the furnaces burned thanks to the embers produced by the combustion of the corpses. So, during the incineration of fat bodies, the fires were generally extinguished. When this type of body was charged into a hot furnace, fat immediately began to flow intop the ash bin, where it caught fire and started the combustion of the body. When <<musulmans>> were being creamated, it was necessary to constantly refuel the fireboxes...." (Ibid. p.495)

Here, we can see that Tauber has indicated that the "incineration of fat bodies" did not require much, if any, extra fuel.

"You are the one claiming the above are possible."

Indeed. As were, among others, Walter Müller, Henryk Tauber, and by inference Topf, the firm that made the furnaces.

"These are not minor discrepencies. These are the crux of the all the deaths of the `unregistered'."

No, the Giwer-Troll's "objections" are nothing more than the results of rampant bigotry, prejudice, the lack of critical thinking skills and an overabundance of denier dogmatism. This is hardly suprising considering that:

The Giwer-Troll is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews and causing fights. While he can sometimes sound superficially plausible, he has profusely and consistantly lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

URL ../../../../ftp.cgi/people/g/giwer.matt

Mark

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"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and 
evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political 
parties--but right through every human heart--and all human hearts."

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
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