9 August 1996

Jamie McCarthy
P.O. Box 20394
Kalamazoo, MI 49019-20394

David Irving
PO Box 1707
Key West, FL 33041-1707

Mr. Irving,

Hello! I have not heard from you since June of last year, but it's certainly been a busy year. I wonder if I might pick up our discussion again, and I hope you don't mind that I've taken you up on your offer to post all this in cyberspace.

Speaking of cyberspace, I hear from Greg Raven that it's unlikely that the internet publishing of Goebbels is going through. A shame, in my opinion; I would have liked to see it online. The site I webmaster had offered to be a mirror site if that did happen, by the way. But of course I can hardly blame you for deciding not to give it to the world for free!

I don't want to be a bore by asking you again the same questions I asked twelve months ago. But I should mention that one of the books I've read in the last year was Eichmann Interrogated (the 1983 Farrar, Strous & Giroux edition; I don't know if there are any others). There was a passage in there that really raised my eyebrows, because it shed new light on part of our earlier discussion.

On pp. 74-82, the interrogation concerns Eichmann's being summoned to meet Heydrich, the same meeting you and I had discussed last year. Let me quote for a bit:

The war with the Soviet Union began in June 1941, I think. And I believe it was two months later, or maybe three, that Heydrich sent for me. I reported. He said to me: "The Führer, well, emigration is..." He began with a little speech. And then: "The Führer has ordered physical extermination." These were his words. And as though wanting to test their effect on me, he made a long pause, which was not at all his way. I can still remember that. In the first moment, I didn't grasp the implications, because he chose his words so carefully. But then I understood. I didn't say anything, what could I say? Because I'd never thought of a... of such a thing, of that sort of violent solution. [...] Anyway, Heydrich said: "Go and see Globocnik, the Führer has already given him instructions. Take a look and see how he's getting on with his program. I believe he's using Russian anti-tank ditches for exterminating the Jews." As ordered, I went to Lublin, located the headquarters of SS and Police Commander Globocnik, and reported to the Gruppenführer. I told him Heydrich had sent me, because the Führer had ordered the physical exermination of the Jews.

Less: The Gruppenführer?

Eichmann: I beg your pardon?

Less: The Gruppenführer?

Eichmann: The Führer. The Führer was Hitler. Yes, the Führer was meant. I've only quoted Heydrich's...

Less: Heydrich's.

Eichmann: ... Heydrich's words. He said: "The Führer has ordered the... that is... Hitler has ordered the physical extermination of the Jews."

Skipping ahead about five pages:

Who gave the orders for those actions? The orders, the orders. Obviously, the orders were given by the head of the Security Police and the SD, namely, Heydrich. But he must also have had his instructions from the Reichsführer-SS, namely, Himmler; on his own hook he can't... he could never have done such things on his own hook. And Himmler must have had express orders from Hitler. If he hadn't had orders from Hitler, he'd have been out on his ear before he knew what hit him.

Less: Didn't Himmler give written orders about this final solution of the Jewish question?

Eichmann: Writ... for extermination, physical extermination?

Less: For physical extermination.

Eichmann: I never saw a written order, Herr Hauptmann. All I know is that Heydrich said to me: "The Führer has ordered the physical extermination of the Jews." He said that as clearly and surely as I'm repeating it now.

Five times he says the words "physical extermination."

I should also point out that the recordings of the interrogation were transcribed, and that both Eichmann and Less went over them word-for-word to check their accuracy. Eichmann "had to confirm in writing... that the text of the final transcript was identical to that of the tape recording" (p. xvi).

Now, back in March of last year I asked you about Eichmann's diaries, specifically about his references to "physical extermination." To refresh your memory, you had given a speech which was cited in the Mar/Apr 93 JHR:

...you've only got to change one or two words and you get a completely different meaning. If it wasn't "The Fuhrer has ordered the physical destruction of the Jews," but rather "die Ausrottung des Judentums" you've only changed the words by a fraction and yet you've got a totally different meaning.

This seemed a little hard to swallow when all I knew about was Eichmann's diaries, where he mentions Heydrich's words "only" once and frets about their meaning for "only" two or three sentences. But in the interrogation transcripts, Eichmann was far more explicit. If it was hard to swallow before, it's impossible now.

You went on to say:

My answer may seem too easy again to you: but it is that Eichmann's memory of the Führer Order would not count as evidence in a properly constituted court. It is hearsay, and fifth hand hearsay at that: Hitler told Himmler who told Heydrich who told Eichmann... Eichmann told Sassen who tells us. Never forget that man Willem Sassen... He needed to sell the stuff...

Actually, hearsay testimony is admissable in court when the original speaker is not available, or in this case dead. I'm surprised you didn't know that. And Sassen is irrelevant, since Eichmann confirmed exactly the same thing, in more detail, later, in recorded testimony to a representative of the court!

Eichmann's memory certainly did count as evidence in a properly constituted court -- I just didn't know that last year, is all.

You conclude on this subject by saying:

I admit I was taken aback when first confronted with the "Führer Order" quotations, but Hugh Trevor Roper once lectured me about a key rule in considering documentary evidence: because it is new, it isn't necessarily true.

The problem is that it wasn't new. I didn't know that when I last wrote you, because I'm just an amateur at this.

But I'm sure you must have. You're probably one of the most-read people in the world on this subject -- indeed, one of the most-written, with thousands of pages to your name. Surely you'd at least read Eichmann Interrogated before you made that speech and before you wrote me your reply. I refuse to believe that you got hold of Eichmann's memoirs and studied them so carefully without even reading the public court records from 1960, or the mass-market book on them from 1983. You're far too thorough a researcher to have let something so obvious slip through your grasp.

At this point, I don't mean to be rude, but I can't come all this way and then not put you on the spot. I'm afraid I must ask the hard questions:

• Why did you tell me to "never forget that man William Sassen," as if Sassen could have been distorting the words or their meaning, when the exact same words were confirmed in 1960?

• Why did you tell me (incorrectly) that the diaries "would not count as evidence in a properly constituted court," when there was evidence in a court which confirmed this part of the diaries word-for-word?

• Why did you present what were obviously crystal-clear memories of Eichmann's, as stated and as confirmed by his interrogation transcript, and claim that he might have misremembered the key words involved? Why didn't you mention, to either me or the IHR conference attendees, that he had confirmed those key words you questioned, no fewer than five times, extremely emphatically, in 1960?

  You were saying, "you've only got to change one or two words and you get a completely different meaning." Did you think it was not worth mentioning that Eichmann had confirmed those one or two words over and over?

  "The Führer has ordered physical extermination." These were his words. And as though wanting to test their effect on me, he made a long pause, which was not at all his way. I can still remember that. ...he chose his words so carefully.

  "... the Führer has already given him instructions. ... I believe he's using Russian anti-tank ditches for exterminating the Jews." ... I told him Heydrich had sent me, because the Führer had ordered the physical exermination of the Jews.

  I've only quoted Heydrich's ... Heydrich's words. He said: "The Führer has ordered the... that is... Hitler has ordered the physical extermination of the Jews."

  Writ... for extermination, physical extermination?

  All I know is that Heydrich said to me: "The Führer has ordered the physical extermination of the Jews." He said that as clearly and surely as I'm repeating it now.

I have a very open mind, Mr. Irving, which is why I'm writing you. I'd like to hear your side of the story, please.

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