The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

UseNet Responds to Leuchter's "Life After Persecution" speech


This file contains responses to republication of Fred Leuchter's "Life After Persecution" speech, which was republished to UseNet's alt.revisionism newsgroup by codfish@netcom.com Ross Vicksell, of the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust, on January 3, 1995.

The speech has been removed, to avoid duplication, and for the sake of brevity.

Mr. Vicksell's preface:

This is an excerpt from a speech Fred gave at the 1992 IHR conference. I got it from Greg's www site. All I've left out is Fred's account of his English misadventures, which has little relevance to the topic under discussion.

In a day or two I'll post a summary of what Kirk Lyons told me about Fred's troubles with the prison officials.

Ross Vicksell

[speech]

Dr. Keren

dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) responded:

The "Leuchter report": put up or shut up, Vicksell --------------------------------------------------

Long and detailed refutations of the "Leuchter report" - the report written by this "engineer" (whose only degree is a BA in the humanities), regarding the Auschwitz gas chambers - were posted here, and are periodically posted by Ken McVay.

The "report" is a piece of pseudo-scientific rubbish. The arguments Leuchter makes are ridiculous. Part of my job is to review papers submitted to scientific journals and conferences. I can say with certainty that, although I've seen bad papers here and there, I've never seen such a collection of errors, self-contradictions, and incredibly stupid statements such as the "Leuchter report".

Now, if our "revisionist scholars", like Vicksell, believe otherwise - well, they should be able to prove it. All they have to do is state what they believe are the strong points in the report, and explain why they are correct.

-Danny Keren.

Simon Streltsov

simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov) responded to Dr. Keren a few hours later:

Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:


: The "report" is a piece of pseudo-scientific rubbish. The
: arguments Leuchter makes are ridiculous.

Danny,

the post you are answering does not add anything to the "report" itself - FL is saying about the ways Jewish community attacks him - so, your answer is not really addressing the issue.


Simcha Streltsov, _Former_ Adar Rabbi of S.C.Soviet
-------------------------
please, only Kosher lePesach homentashen
all others will be returned unopened.


p.s. This sig expired, but nobody have sent me real homentashen anyway

Barry Shein

bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) responded to Simon with:

the post you are answering does not add anything to the "report" itself - FL is saying about the ways Jewish community attacks him - so, your answer is not really addressing the issue.

And what in that posting leads you to believe that there is any "jewish community" attacking Leuchter?

Ya know, these people are crazy as bedbugs and if they get a parking ticket for not putting a nickel in the meter they start hooting and hollering that the jewish community is in control of the meter maids and persecuting them.

How come Leuchter's remarks are completely bereft of any evidence for his claims? He just conjures up some sort of world-wide jewish conspiracy out to get him, describes his misadventures, and blames it all on "them". Who the hell is them? Why can't he be specific if he's so sure of this?

I'll tell you way, because it's just bullshit, that's why.

So why should anyone address any of this seriously (other than to point out its absurdity)?

It's the oldest anti-semitic trick in the book, the world-wide jewish conspiracy with a death-grip over everything. So we have to assume this world-wide jewish conspiracy also has a death-grip on all the courts in the US? How do they do all these things? Must be quite a group!

Ok, here's the first question for these nut-cases:

What is the phone number and mailing address of this well-organized and invincible international jewish conspiracy Leuchter keeps referring to?

Simple and fair question, no? Certainly anything so organized and capable of trampling all these people into the ground, with complete control of the entire court system in the US etc, MUST HAVE A PHONE NUMBER AND AN ADDRESS!

Listen to the silence...

-- -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD

Mike Stein

mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) responded directly to Mr. Vicksell:

In article <codfishD1tFy0.I42@netcom.com>, Ross Vicksell <codfish@netcom.com> wrote:

This is an excerpt from a speech Fred gave at the 1992 IHR conference. I got it from Greg's www site. All I've left out is Fred's account of his English misadventures, which has little relevance to the topic under discussion.
[Leuchter speech omitted]

Given Leuchter's obvious fantasizing regarding his incontrovertible proof that there were no gas chambers (e.g., he says that an intact chamber at Majdanek is stained with prussian blue, yet says it was technically defective for use with cyanide despite the physical evidence that cyanide was used there), I take his assertions about the legal situation with a giant economy size box of Morton's salt.

However, if what he says about selective and malicious prosecution is true, the ACLU should be interested in his case. I suspect Alan Dershowitz would be willing to take it as a free speech issue - I believe he was the one who defended the right of the Nazis to march in Skokie. Has Leuchter contacted them? If not, why not?

--
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.

Ross Vicksell's Response to Barry Stein

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) responded to Mike Stein's comments with:


: However, if what he says about selective and malicious prosecution is
: true, the ACLU should be interested in his case. I suspect Alan
: Dershowitz would be willing to take it as a free speech issue - I believe
: he was the one who defended the right of the Nazis to march in Skokie.

: Has Leuchter contacted them? If not, why not?

I doubt very much that Dershowitz would have taken the case; he's a doctrinaire revisionist hater.

As for getting the ACLU into the act, I remember that that was first thing I asked Fred back in 1990, when this business came to a head. He told me he had already engaged Kirk Lyon's Patriot's Defence Fund, which is now called the CAUSE Foundation. I would have preferred that he had contacted the ACLU first, but I was hardly running the show.

Ross Vicksell

Another Vicksell Response to Barry Shein

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: How come Leuchter's remarks are completely bereft of any evidence for
: his claims? He just conjures up some sort of world-wide jewish
: conspiracy out to get him, describes his misadventures, and blames it
: all on "them". Who the hell is them? Why can't he be specific if he's
: so sure of this?

Read Fred's article again. He's quite specific. He names names:

"Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living.

At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld of the Paris-based Klarsfeld Foundation. In the United States, the campaign has been orchestrated through the US-based 'Holocaust Survivors and Friends in Pursuit of Justice.' Associated with these two organizations have been the Anti-Defamation League of the B'nai B'rith and the Jewish Defense League.

At Klarsfeld's initiative, these groups first carried out an extensive one year investigation. After they were unable to turn up any impropriety or wrongdoing on my part, they began to threaten prison wardens with political consequences if they dealt with me. This first came to light when the ABC television news program, "Prime Time," decided to do a network television piece on myself and my work. This involved filming at various prisons. Prison wardens advised the "Prime Time" personnel of the threats and problems that resulted from my presence at the prisons for the filming. ABC news was told not to air the program. It refused to succumb to the pressure, and consequently suffered vilification by the organizations involved.

To sum up here, this campaign has consisted of the following:

1. Threats against prison officials who dealt with me. 2. False and slanderous vilification through private channels, as well as publicly in newspapers and magazines. 3. Legislation to prevent me from working at my profession. 4. Criminal prosecution for working at my profession. 5. Lies by public officials spread both officially and privately. 6. Restriction of my personal freedom and right to travel by effecting my illegal arrest and imprisonment in England, from where I was finally deported. 7. Interference with my right as an American citizen to help and protection from the US State Department, which refused to assist me during my illegal imprisonment in England.

As a result of this campaign, my livelihood has been destroyed, and my career has been ruined. All this for telling the truth under oath."

I do think Fred is being a little rough on Shelley Shapiro of Holocaust Survivors and Friends in Pursuit of Justice, though. She appeared on Boston TV, I think it was WGBH, protesting that they didn't really mean to destroy Fred's business - they just wanted to discredit the Leuchter Report.

Also, since Fred made his list of particulars, he's had another non-encounter with the U.S. State Department; they didn't lift a finger to help him out when he was jailed in Germany.

As for the involvment of the Klarsfeld Foundation, I sat next to Ms. Klarsfeld herself in the courtroom in Malden. She was there - ask her if you don't believe ne. But maybe she just happened to be passing through Boston at the time. Also the local ADL boss was there, at least out front of courthouse in Cambridge. Again, you can ask him if you don't believe me.

Also Fred fails to mention the Massachusetts Committee Against the Death Penalty, which also gave him a hard time. I just made out a check to them, since they're not hassling Fred any more, as far as I know.

As for pressure being brought on the media, there's an article about it in "Truth Prevails." Straight from the horses mouth. They complain about how irresponsible ABC TV is to go ahead and air their Prime Time "Mr. Death" show.

: What is the phone number and mailing address of this well-organized
: and invincible international jewish conspiracy Leuchter keeps referring
: to?

Fred never once refers to the "international jewish conspiracy" (IJC). That expression, like "holocaust denier", "neo-nazi", and "hate monger", is part of your set of catch phrases, not ours. On the contrary, Fred refers to four specific Jewish Groups: the Klarsfeld Foundation, Holocaust Survivors and Friends in Pursuit of Justice, the ADL, and the JDL.

: Simple and fair question, no? Certainly anything so organized and
: capable of trampling all these people into the ground, with complete
: control of the entire court system in the US etc, MUST HAVE A PHONE
: NUMBER AND AN ADDRESS!

Look them up yourself. Two of them are right here in the Boston area, the ADL in Boston and the JDL in Revere, last time I looked. And I'm sure if you also wanted to contact the Klarsfeld Foundation or Holocaust Survivors et. al., the local ADL would be glad to furnish you with their addresses and/or phone/fax numbers.

I have a few more things to say about Fred's trials and tribulations, but I'll save them for later.

Ross Vicksell

Brian Harmon's Response to Simon Streltsov

bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov) responds to Simon Streltsov:

Danny, the post you are answering does not add anything to the "report" itself - FL is saying about the ways Jewish community attacks him - so, your answer is not really addressing the issue.

Leuchter claims to be an engineer.

While testifying in the Zündel trial, he was soundly trounced during cross-examination. It came out that he did not have any formal training as an engineer, and that he did not know much about cyanide or its use.

Leuchter also claims that he consulted with several prisons and provided them with execution hardware.

The wardens of these institutions have never even heard of him, and he didn't even correctly remember their names while under cross-examination.

To put the nails in the coffin, his report is a joke. He doesn't run the proper control experiments. He makes incorrect assumptions about how much cyanide should be present on the walls of delousing and gas chambers. These are just the beginning.

If Leuchter's career as an "engineer" has since gone down the toilet, I don't need to invoke a conspiracy to explain his professional demise.

=======================================================================
Brian Harmon           "...God sets us nothing but riddles.."
Miami University             -Dostoyevski's _The Brothers Karamazov_
Oxford, Ohio 45056                yeech! ackphtbt! ungh!
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------

Richard Schultz Responds to Mr. Vicksell

schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) adds:

In article <codfishD1vME4.4r3@netcom.com>, Ross Vicksell <codfish@netcom.com> wrote:

Read Fred's article again. He's quite specific. He names names:

Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living. At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld. . .

No doubt someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I had always been under the impression that Beate Klarsfeld isn't Jewish.

I also noticed that in this speech, Leuchter was long on Jewish conspiracies but short on the kind of evidence that might make him out to be something other than a paranoid loon. He seems not to have noticed that he admitted in open court that he had no training as an engineer. Has it ever occurred to him that people who are looking to hire an engineer might possibly want to hire a qualified one? And as I pointed out before, if the prison officials were lying about their relationships with him, why didn't he say "here in my hand is a letter from a prison official who later denied having ever heard of me."


--
Richard Schultz

"I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."

Simon Streltsov Provides Court Proceedings

I dug up references to Fred Leuchter in the court proceedings - there is none about him (? because it did not get to court), but there are several ref. to him being asked as an expert.

I'll let you decide if it is relevant or not (I tried to keep court cases, so that it would be easy to find the missing parts)

Simcha

Chicago Daily Law Bulletin

December 1, 1992, Tuesday
HEADLINE: Executioners and the tools of their trade

BYLINE: THOMAS MAEDER

BODY: Engineering and industrial design are generally employed to enhance our lives with the creation of pleasingly functional objects. More rarely they help to take lives away, as in weapons design, or in the work of Fred Leuchter of Massachusetts, America's only specialist in the design and construction of execution devices.

Leuchter does not create engines of mass destruction, like the gas chambers of the Nazi death camps. Rather, his instruments are designed to solve a peculiar practical and moral problem: how to cut down on the number of ...

Capital punishment, not capital torture'' is Fred Leuchter's motto. Society has sentenced certain men to die -- no more and no less -- and with good old Yankee ingenuity, Leuchter seeks ways to get the job done quickly, painlessly and well. Most existing execution equipment is ancient, and was amateurishly constructed to begin with. So why not buy a new, professionally made gallows for $ 85,000, with on-site training and an optional service contract? Or an electric chair made of oak, with a padded backrest?

Leuchter was hardly the only person Stephen Trombley spoke to. Yet for a book entirely devoted to the subject of executions, The Execution Protocol: Inside America's Capital Punishment Industry'' offers surprisingly little direct speculation ...

... trained people, including doctors and clergymen.''

Trombley, a film maker who was preparing a documentary film on execution as he conducted research for this book, elected to divide his focus between Fred Leuchter's cottage industry in capital punishment equipment and the workings of the Potosi Correctional Center. The 48-year-old Leuchter emerges as a character of impenetrable motives, a craftsman working in a morbid medium

ROBERT WAYNE SAWYER v. JOHN WHITLEY, Warden, Louisiana State Penitentiary, Angola, Louisiana

SAWYER v. WHITLEY

Civil Action No. 90-4035

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF
LOUISIANA

772 F. Supp. 297; 1991 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 9956

July 10, 1991, Decided
July 16, 1991, Filed

After reviewing the pleadings, the Court determined that an evidentiary [**26] hearing on Claim 4 was warranted due to the conflicting affidavits from the parties' experts. At the conclusion of the hearing, [*307] the Court found that Louisiana's electric chair meets constitutional standards. The Court rendered oral reasons and advised the parties that written reasons would follow in this opinion. The Court's reasons are set forth below.

One of the expert affidavits submitted by Sawyer in support of Claim 4 is the affidavit of Fred Leuchter. The Court recently read in the Times-Picayune newspaper that Leuchter was charged by the State of Massachusetts with practicing engineering without a license. See Times-Picayune, June 19, 1991, at A-11. The article reported that on June 11, 1991, Leuchter signed a consent agreement with the Massachusetts board that licenses engineers stating: "I am not and never have been registered as a professional engineer" and that he had nevertheless represented himself as an engineer in several dealings with various states that use the death penalty. The agreement also required Leuchter to stop disseminating the " Leuchter Report" in which he purports to be an engineer and offers the view that the gas chambers in Nazi concentration camps were never used for mass killings. Id.

Leuchter's affidavit in the case at bar states: "I have been involved in electrical engineering work for 26 years." Interestingly, although Sawyer relied to a great extent on Leuchter's affidavit in his petition for habeas corpus, he did not call Leuchter as a witness at the evidentiary hearing, nor did he offer his affidavit as evidence.

JAMES WILLIAM HAMBLEN, Petitioner, v. RICHARD L. DUGGER, Secretary, Florida Department of Corrections, Respondent

HAMBLEN v. DUGGER

No. 90-616-Civ-J-12

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF
FLORIDA, JACKSONVILLE DIVISION

748 F. Supp. 1498; 1990 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 12826

July 16, 1990, Decided
July 16, 1990, Filed

Petitioner advances several reasons for an evidentiary hearing anew in this Court. On the one hand, he argues that DOC's representations concerning operation of the electric chair are not credible. For instance, he alludes to the infamous "toaster test" of a synthetic sponge and contrasts the experience with synthetic sponges in South Carolina. Both of these matters, however, are disposed of in Judge Fawsett's opinion, wherein the Court refers to the testimony from a Department of Agriculture chemist who performed tests on the sponge used in the Tafero execution, which was chemically different from the type used in South Carolina. Indeed, Fred Leuchter, an expert proffered by petitioner, testified in Buenoano that polyurethane sponges inhibit the conduction of electricity and do not absorb water, effectively rebutting petitioner's assertion that the sponge's composition is irrelevant because its conductivity is produced by soaking in a saline solution. (The affidavit of Robert H. Kirschner, M.D., submitted by petitioner, also refers to the increased resistance of the sponge as the cause of reduced charge to Tafero.) These criticisms of DOC, then, do not present issues requiring an [**9] evidentiary hearing.

The Court turns to petitioner's other stratagem, the proposal of issues that would be proved if an evidentiary hearing were held. (Petitioner states that Judge Fawsett refused to hear the proposed evidence.) First, petitioner proposes to show that power was lost at Florida State Prison on May 7, 1990, during tests of the electric chair. Because power had not been lost in this fashion previously, petitioner contends that this evidence undermines DOC's subsequent assertion that the equipment now works today as it did prior to Tafero's execution. Second, petitioner would show that agents of DOG sought repair of the head electrode by inmate workers in the maintenance shops of the Florida State Prison prior to Tafero's execution. Petitioner contends that this evidence demonstrates an awareness of the alleged defective condition of the head electrode and DOC's failure to seek proper repair thereof. Third, petitioner would call Fred Leuchter to testify that the only possible explanation for the events surrounding Tafero's execution is a broken or poorly maintained head electrode. Further, Mr. Leuchter would testify to the negotiations between himself and DOC officials [**10] in 1986 over proposed repairs and maintenance for the electric chair. Petitioner contends that this latter testimony demonstrates the knowledge of DOC officials of defects in the electric chair. Last, petitioner would present testimony regarding the possibility that Tafero suffered when conductivity problems arose during his execution.

WALLACE NORRELL THOMAS, Petitioner, v. CHARLIE JONES,
Warden, Holman State Prison, Respondent

THOMAS v. JONES

Civil Action No. 90-0517-AH-C

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF
ALABAMA, SOUTHERN DIVISION

742 F. Supp. 598; 1990 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 8581

July 10, 1990, Decided

OPINION:

Evidence Presented

The following is a summary of the relevant evidence presented through documents, exhibits, affidavits, depositions, and testimony at the hearing.

Alabama's wooden electric chair is in a separate "execution chamber" with its back to the wall on which the receptacles for the electrical connectors are located. There are four receptacles, arranged two by two. (Photograph, Exhibit 2 to Morse affidavit). To properly connect the chair to the power source the cables should run from the two bottom receptacles to the back of the chair. (Morse affidavit, p. 2, Morse testimony, 7/9/90, Bernstein testimony, 7/9/90, Brooks affidavit, p. 2, Thigpen deposition). The top receptacles lead to a bank of test resistors from which no power can flow. ( Leuchter affidavit, p. 3, Bernstein testimony, 7/9/90, Morse testimony, 7/9/90).

If the cables are connected from the top receptacles to the electric chair, no electrical power reaches the chair. (Brooks' affidavit, p. 2, Leuchter affidavit, p. 3, Morse testimony, 7/9/90, Bernstein testimony, 7/9/90).

[*606] Fred A. Leuchter (engineer engaged in the design and manufacture of "execution hardware") states that Alabama's execution equipment is old, but that it is the same type of equipment most electrocution states use to carry out their electrocutions. Leuchter opines that, properly operated, Alabama's electric chair can be used to carry out a humane execution. ( Leuchter affidavit, p. 4). Leuchter also states that the old electric chair is being replaced because of the difficulty in getting spare parts, and because the newer electric chair will be easier to use.

Dr. Morse testified that he examined the electric chair on July 5, 1990, that it was in satisfactory working order, and that the design, though simple, is adequate to enable the Alabama Department of Corrections to carry out a humane execution. (Morse deposition, [**21] and Morse testimony at 7/9/90 hearing). Dr. Bernstein testified that Alabama's execution procedures are inadequate because the electric chair is antiquated ("an accident waiting to happen") and because the people who operate it do not know what they are doing. Bernstein holds the opinion that better trained personnel would not have made the mistake made by Craft and Skipper, and that there is a substantial likelihood of some other mishap occurring during future executions.

Some of the documentary evidence and live testimony tended to show that corpses of prisoners executed in Alabama's electric chair bear unexplained burns. (Richardson Autopsy Report, Dunkins Autopsy Report.)

Findings of Fact

1. The Court finds that in a properly performed judicial electrocution the initial application of electricity is meant to cause instant brain death. Cardiac arrest is secondary.

2. The Court finds that the electric chair was incorrectly connected on the night of July 14, 1989. As a result of this error, no electrical power reached the chair during the first cycle. Horace Dunkins, Jr. did not receive an electrical shock until the second cycle.

3. The Court finds that Dunkins fainted at the [**22] time of the first attempt at his execution and never regained consciousness. Consequently, the Court finds no support for Thomas' contention that Dunkins suffered from being made to go through a "mock execution." Further, the Court finds no credible evidence that Dunkins suffered any pain during the actual electrocution process as during the one time electricity passed through his body, * * * Dunkins was instantaneously rendered brain dead. Consequently, he was unable to feel pain, and did not suffer.

4. The Court finds that the error which occurred during the Dunkins execution cannot be repeated.

STATE OF DELAWARE v. BILLIE BAILEY, Defendant

STATE v. BAILEY

Nos. IK79-05-0085R1, IK79-05-0086R1, IK79-05-0087R1,
IK79-05-0088R1, IK79-07-0202R1, IK79-07-0203R1

Superior Court of Delaware, Kent

1991 Del. Super. LEXIS 352

August 23, 1991, Decided

The State initially contended that any execution by hanging would be carried out by a "Mr. Ellis" and that any execution by lethal injection would be carried out in consultation with a Mr. Fred Leuchter using a machine he designed. Ultimately, the State advised the Court that neither of these persons would be personally involved. The State currently plans to use Department of Correction employees who will be trained.

JUDY A. BUENOANO, Appellant, v. STATE OF FLORIDA, Appellee

BUENOANO v. STATE

No. 76,150

Supreme Court of Florida

565 So. 2d 309; 1990 Fla. LEXIS 845; 15 Fla. Law W. 355; 15
Fla. Law W. S 355

June 20, 1990

Still other affidavits presented [**16] to this Court confirm a faulty design in the present electric chair. An expert in the design and construction of electric chairs, Fred Leuchter, Jr., reported that the Florida chair was not functioning properly because of its use of only a single "homemade" leg electrode. According to Leuchter, an electric chair needs electrodes attached to both legs in order to work properly. Leuchter also criticized the present leg electrode because it had been haphazardly constructed from an old Army boot and other spare parts.

This statement was confirmed by the man who actually fabricated the Army-boot electrode, Robin Adair. Adair stated that, while working at the prison, he created the present Army-boot electrode by riveting different types of metal and roofing material into the boot, together with a stainless steel bolt obtained from a hardware store. Adair specifically characterized this arrangement as "homemade.

This Court thus is faced with a ghastly possibility: A homemade electrode fashioned out of a used Army boot, spare parts, and roofing material may sometimes result in flames, smoke, and extensive charring of flesh during an execution. If the facts as alleged by Buenoano are true, [**17] even more serious malfunctions may occur in the future.

Barry Shein Responds to Mr. Vicksell

From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)


: However, if what he says about selective and malicious prosecution is
: true, the ACLU should be interested in his case. I suspect Alan
: Dershowitz would be willing to take it as a free speech issue - I believe
: he was the one who defended the right of the Nazis to march in Skokie.
:
: Has Leuchter contacted them? If not, why not?
:
I doubt very much that Dershowitz would have taken the case; he's a
doctrinaire revisionist hater.

Oh, c'mon, but he defended the Nazis in Skokie, Illinois because...?

You really don't understand these sorts of things, do you?

--
-Barry Shein


Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com
| uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD

Barry Shein

Barry Shein responds to Mr. Vicksell:

From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)


At Klarsfeld's initiative, these groups first carried out an extensive
one year investigation. After they were unable to turn up any
impropriety or wrongdoing on my part, they began to threaten prison
wardens with political consequences if they dealt with me. This first
came to light when the ABC television news program, "Prime Time,"
decided to do a network television piece on myself and my work. This
involved filming at various prisons. Prison wardens advised the "Prime
Time" personnel of the threats and problems that resulted from my
presence at the prisons for the filming. ABC news was told not to air
the program. It refused to succumb to the pressure, and consequently
suffered vilification by the organizations involved.

Ok, so Leuchter does name names etc.

So how did this Paris-based group exercise political pressure? What does that mean exactly? How can a sane and rational person distinguish this from psychotic ravings and make the connection that bridges the complaint that something happened this fellow didn't like, and there exist people out there who didn't like him (I don't doubt people dislike him, I don't doubt he dislikes what happened to him, but that's beside the point, right? A connection has to be made, not just a list of events that might or might not be related.)

Such massive political pressure that would bring ABC and courtrooms and prison wardens to their respective knees has to have something more to be described in the way of process than just postulating cause and effect. A bridge between the two has to be established, not just that they both happened to exist.

Otherwise it's just appears to be a fantasy, something is missing, like tying any of this together. It's not enough to say Beate Klarsfeld doesn't like me, I lost in court, so therefore Beate Klarsfeld must control the US court system. That's nonsense of the first order, and there's little else here.

Also, since Fred made his list of particulars, he's had another non-encounter with the U.S. State Department; they didn't lift a finger to help him out when he was jailed in Germany.

He knowingly and pugnaciously violated their laws, right? Why should the US State Dept intervene? Particularly on what, in the grand scheme of things, isn't really a very serious charge, appeared to be done as a willful act of civil disobediance, and occurred in a country whose laws and legal process this country generally respects?

If he were arrested and sentenced to death for taking his shirt off in some third-world tin-pot dictatorship that's one thing, but why should the US State Dept challenge Germany's legal sovereignty on a matter like this? Particularly one where the offender has made it very clear (even if just by his actions) that he was purposely flaunting the law for political effect? Did Leuchter somehow accidentally fall into this mess? What's the point here?

I may not agree with Germany's law, per se, but I don't think I'd expect the US State Dept to intervene on my half in a situation like this.

-- -Barry Shein

Ross Vicksell Responds to Richard Schultz

Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:

: In article <codfishD1vME4.4r3@netcom.com>,
: Ross Vicksell <codfish@netcom.com> wrote:

: Read Fred's article again. He's quite specific. He names names:
:
: "Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas
: chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly
: vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living.
:
: At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld. . ."

: No doubt someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I had always been
: under the impression that Beate Klarsfeld isn't Jewish.

Right, but her husband is a Jewish Survivor, of course.

: I also noticed that in this speech, Leuchter was long on Jewish conspiracies
: but short on the kind of evidence that might make him out to be something
: other than a paranoid loon. He seems not to have noticed that he admitted
: in open court that he had no training as an engineer. Has it ever
: occurred to him that people who are looking to hire an engineer might
: possibly want to hire a qualified one?

Nobody in the country was better qualified to design and service execution equipment than Fred, since he was the only guy around in that line. And the prison wardens were all pleased as punch with his services. Then along comes the Leuchter report and the roof caves in on him. Reminds you of what happened to David Irving when he came out with Hitler's War.

: And as I pointed out before, if
: the prison officials were lying about their relationships with him,
: why didn't he say "here in my hand is a letter from a prison official
: who later denied having ever heard of me."

And as I pointed out, Fred did most of his business on a "handshake" basis; there were often no written records. What the officials were lying about was not about whether they had dealt with Fred in the past, but whether they had any pending dealings with him.

Also, as I said before, Fred still hoped to rebuild his shattered business, so he didn't want to antagonize his customers.

I'll write to Fred and see whether he wants to elaborate on why he has no written records of these pending deals with the prisons.

Ross Vicksell

Daniel Mittleman's Comments

In article <codfishD1x39o.Cpz@netcom.com>, codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes...

Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:

[Vicksell] Nobody in the country was better qualified to design and service execution equipment than Fred, since he was the only guy around in that line. And the prison wardens were all pleased as punch with his services. Then along comes the Leuchter report and the roof caves in on him. Reminds you of what happened to David Irving when he came out with Hitler's War.

Has it occurred to you that maybe instead of this being an anti-denier conspiracy it was simply that the Leuchter Report was evidence that Fred was a bad engineer and once this was pointed out to prison administration they lost interest?

:[Schultz] And as I pointed out before, if
: the prison officials were lying about their relationships with him,
: why didn't he say "here in my hand is a letter from a prison official
: who later denied having ever heard of me."

[Vicksell]And as I pointed out, Fred did most of his business on a "handshake"
basis; there were often no written records. What the officials were lying
about was not about whether they had dealt with Fred in the past, but
whether they had any pending dealings with him.

Ross, most prisons are State or Federal agencies. There are all sorts of contracting and procurement laws which prohibit such agencies from doing business on a handshake. In the 1980s and 1990s there is relatively little government procurement done on a handshake anymore (although I do not deny there is still a strong old boy network in place.) There are written records for most all government procurement these days.

Further, I don't know whether you have ever had business dealings with prison wardens. I have in that my research center has worked with prison wardens in Arizona. I found the wardens to be among the most rigid and structured clients I have ever dealt with. These were not the sort of people who would take liberties with procurement laws; As a group these were rather anal people who would dot every "i" and cross every "t".

In short, I think you are pulling this "handshake" line out of thin air. It doesn't ring true to me.

[Vicksell]Also, as I said before, Fred still hoped to rebuild his shattered
business, so he didn't want to antagonize his customers.

Lotsa luck.

I'll write to Fred and see whether he wants to elaborate on why he has no
written records of these pending deals with the prisons.

Because they don't exist, me thinks.

============================================================
daniel david mittleman - danny@arizona.edu - (602) 621-2932

Jamie McCarthy

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

This is an excerpt from a speech Fred gave at the 1992 IHR conference.

I...have been unable to find work and have no income.
It does not seem that this will improve in the near future.

Ross, correct me if I'm wrong, but Leuchter derived income from this speech. Isn't getting paid to say "I have no income" a variation on the Liar's Paradox?

We've heard second-hand testimony that Leuchter can visit some exclusive clubs in his area; presumably he's reasonably well-off. Any comment, Ross? Would you characterize him as "middle-class"? "Comfortable"? That attorney of his whom you recently contacted -- is that attorney on retainer?

-- Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program." - Himmler "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long, drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches." - Raven

Ross Vicksell

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) replies to Jamie McCarthy:

Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:

: We've heard second-hand testimony that Leuchter can visit some exclusive
: clubs in his area; presumably he's reasonably well-off. Any comment,
: Ross? Would you characterize him as "middle-class"? "Comfortable"?
: That attorney of his whom you recently contacted -- is that attorney
: on retainer?

As I told you all earlier in this thread, Fred dropped out of sight last Spring, so I really can't tell you how well off he is now. I was probably the last revisionist to see him.

His mother and his aunt still live in Malden, so I'll send a letter to Fred via them and see what he has to say about the behavior of those prison wardens, if he feels like talking about it.

Ross Vicksell


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