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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:08:29 -0700
[Responding to Jean-Francois Beaulieu]
[Beaulieu] "I have to imagine also that the explosion selectivelly remove any trace of the porous pilars but not the other ones. "
Mr. Beaulieu, the only selective removing here is YOUR selectivity in regards to what you choose to recall about what I post!
To refresh your memory:
"...[O]n November 25, 1944, Himmler ordered the demolition of the Auschwitz gas chambers and crematoria. The same day, work began on dismantling the installations of crematorium II at Birkenau. After the furnaces, the chimney, the roof, and all the installations in the walls [i.e. the Zyklon-B introduction devices] of the crematorium building were taken apart, openings were made for dynamite charges to blow up the entire structure...."...On December 1, 1944, a special group , intially comprising 100 women prisoners, began dismantling crematorium III. On December 5, 50 more women were incorporated into the squad. At the same time, another squad of 50 women was formed. Its task was to remove the ashes from the incineration pits, fill them in, and cover them with turf.[1]
As you can see, Mr. Beaulieu, the introduction devices were dismantled and removed prior to the demolition of Kremas II and III. Of course, my origional post stated this, yet you seem to feel free to "ignore" this and offer some assinine innuendo about the "explosion selectivelly remove[ing] any trace[s] of the porous pil[l]ars but not the other ones." Do you perhaps just make things up as you go along?
[Beaulieu] "The story is that the pillars were made of concrete, perfored and empty at the center. And that a metallic wire mesh was introduce inside so the Germans were pouring zyklon B from the top and this one was spread into the wire mesh."
Mr. Beaulieu, like most everything you say, this is another half-truth used to mask a lie. That you can recall three lines from my post and "conclude" that the introduction "pillars" are made of CONCRETE is, frankly, bullshit. Let me refresh your memory again here:
In Kremas II and III "Zyklon B was distributed in the gas chamber[s] through four introduction columns custom-made in the metalwork shops of the camp. They were shaped like pillars and made of two wire grids with a moveable core. Cross sections of the pillars, 3m high, formed a square, each side measuring 70cm. Fastened to the floor, they passed through openings in the ceiling, ending outside as little chimneys closed with a concrete cover equiped with two handles. The external grid (made of wire 3 mm thick) formed interstices measuring 45 mm x 45 mm, and eas fastened to cube-shaped metal scantlings (cross section 50 mm x 10 mm). Interstices of the external grid--150 mm apart from the internal grid and similarly fastened--were smaller (25 mm x 25 mm). The two grids served as a screen for the moveable core that could be introduced through the opening in the ceiling. The core consisted of a tin prism measuring 150mm x 150 mm at the cross section. The bottom of the core was flat, and the top was a cone. A wire mesh with interstices of one sq mm extended from the base of the core to the base of the cone, and was fastened to a post 25 mm away. The entire length of the core was covered with tin. When Zyklon B pellets fell onto the cone, they spread uniformlythroughout the core and stopped at its lower part. After the gas evaporated, the entire core was removed from the gas chamber and the used pellets of diatomite were poured out." [2][Beaulieu] "But the main aspect is the 'selectivity' of the explosion... "
No, Mr. Beaulieu, I think what _really_ is at issue here is the selectivity of your memory and what you choose to read!
[Beaulieu] "the pillars in the center of crema 3 were broken at the same height, but the porous pillar were totally destroyed. "
Ah, now we get to the crux of your canard! You have contructed a fallacious argument based of some idea that the introduction devices were destroyed in the demolition of the Kremas, while the structural support pillars were not.
As we have seen above, Mr. Beaulieu, the introduction devices were dismantled and removed prior to the demolition of Kremas II and III. Your "argument" is exposed for what it is: a meritless fiction.
[Beaulieu] "I must also add that those porous pillars do not exist on any engineering draw that the germans left behind them. "
And this proves what, exactly? That no such drawing ever exixted? Hardly. There were many documents the Nazis didn't "leave behind" at Auschwitz and elsewhere. The Nazis had this thing about Getting Rid Of The Evidence, you know.
[Beaulieu] "Never such a 'proof' was bring in, so I have to assume that the germans in their design prefered to not draw it. To keep the secret? You are not obligated to mention 'porous pillar' on a draw."
They were mentioned in the testimony of former prisoner Michal Kula, who worked in the metalwork shop where the introduction devices were made. See the Trial of Ho"ss, vol. 2, cards 99-101; vol. 11, cards 116, 130; vol. 25, card 33.
- Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.174
- Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.167
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 13:34:52 -0700[Responding to Andrew Allen]
[Allen] "We are back to the Exterminationist starting point: Nothing has left any traces which can be examined; no base for the "little chimneys", to attachment points for the wire columns, no wire columns, no bolt holes, no roof, no holes, no floor. And you call us "deniers".
[snip] "Actually, my starting point is that there are NO 70 cm x 70 cm holes in the roof of Leichenkeller 1. "
Then please explain Document 46 on p.228 of _Technique_ and explain why the hole in the roof of L.Keller 1 is larger than the sewer manhole cover which, when examining the Bauleitung drawing 1300, implies that the manhole cover should be at _least_ 60 cm x 60 cm.
[Allen] "The discussion of the hypothetical pillar started with my further observation that there are no bolt holes around the three "traditional" vent holes in the roof of Leichenkeller 1."
No, the discussion regarding the wire-mesh Zyklon B introduction columns started when Mr. Beaulieu tried to intentionally confuse them with the concrete support pillars. After Mr. Beaulieu's specious claims were put to rest you started to chime in with _your_ specious claims.
Furthermore, your "observsation" regarding the lack of "bolt holes" applied to the roof of L.Keller 1. You, of course, have consistantly ignored that the Zyklon B introduction columns passed threough the roof, ending up inside the "little chimneys, and thus not requiring any "bolt holes" to anchor them to the ceiling.
[Allen] "As to your "simple explaination", I am not ignoring it. I have thought about it, it's stupid."
Of course, are ignoring it. You have no intelligent rebuttal to it and therefore _must_ ignore it and/or call it "stupid." An amazing feat of chutzpuh when one considers the numerous eyewitness testimonies describing the Zyklon B introduction columns. Not to mention the photo of Krema II, taken by the Bauleitung, that shows three "little chimneys" on the roof of L.Keller 1 (Ibid. p.340, photos 17/17a); and the inventory list for Krema II which shows four (4) "Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung" (wire mesh introduction devices) and four (4) "Holzblenden (wooden covers).
And _you_ claim these Zyklon B introduction columns are "hypothetical?" Simply amazing. Perhaps you would care to explain away all the above evidence for the existance of these "hypothetical" Zyklon B introduction columns?
What, you can't? No wonder you must resort to argumentum ad hominem and your ipse dixit "bolt holes."
[Allen] "I feel that it is absurd to suppose that the wire pillar could have withstood the alleged use without being fastened at the roof. "
Your ignorance of basic mechanics is not _my_ problem, Mr. Allen! Please demonstrate that the tops Zyklon B introduction columns could _not_ have "withstood the alleged use without being fastened at the roof."
[Allen] "At best, you can assert that the metal tubes were only prevented from moving laterally. "
Not at all! Not only were they prevented from moving laterally (i.e horizontally) at the top be passage through the ceiling, they were so constrained at the bottom by being attached to the floor. I have cited Pipers detailing of this in _Anatomy_ several times.
And your reply to this is to "hypothesize" that there were no "bolt holes" in the floor? Simply amazing.
[Allen] "Any fex in the tubing, any horizontal or vertical pressure was unrestrained."
Simply put: Bullshit. The Zyklon B introduction columns were constrained at both their tops and bottoms.
[Allen] "Any pressures or impacts would have been transmitted and levered by the length on the tubing to the hypothecal "anchor bolts" on the floor.
Simply put: Bullshit. Any lateral strain would have been distributed to (and absorbed by) the portion of the column in contact with the ceiling (and "little chimneys" as well.
[Allen] "Your arguments that people somehow avoided bumping into the columns during gasssing are specious. "
Simply put: Bullshit. You're being an ass by saying this. Both Dr. Nyiszli and Henryk Tauber told of the victims piling up _away_ from the pillars when they died. Ho"ess told of 1/3 of the victims in the gas chamber, those immediately near the Zyklon B introduction columns, dying immediately when the Zyklon B was introduced. This blows your vapid idea that the victims battered themselves against the Zyklon B introduction columns right out of the water.
And _you_ are suggesting otherwise? Evidense? What, you don't have any evidence otherwise? Why am I not suprised, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen, please pardon my saying so, but you seem rather heavy on bullshit and quitye light on evidence for your claims. Please, I implore you, get a clue and _think_ about the absurdity of what you are suggesting before you make a further ass of yourself.
{Allen responds regarding Document 46, noted in a previous article by Van Alstine]
[Allen] "My poor giddy Van Alstine. No wonder you are confused. Document 46 is NOT a picture of a hole in the roof of Leichenkeller 1. It is a picture of a drainage manhole with a drainage manhole cover next to it. Pressac, like all Hoaxters, avoids any clear pictures of what he claims are vent holes."
Oh, my! Mr. Allen, having painted himself into a corner, must resort to argumentum ad hominem! How telling as to the untenability of his position. To give proof of Mr. Allens's "errors" and poor "reasoning," I submit the following:
The caption to Document 46 (_Technique_, pp.228-229) reads as follows:
"Concrete cover with metal handle, weighing about 20 kg, origionally made for the manhole of documents 44 and 45, now next to the remains of an opening on the roof of Leichenkeller 1 (the gas chamber) of Krematorium II, through which Zyklon B was poured."Note that it is "an opening on the roof of Leichenkeller 1."
Now, refernecing the Bauleitung drawing 1300 of the drainage system to Kremas II clearly shows that the sewer manholes were outside of Krema II and in the _ground_. The Zyklon B introduction hole in question is in the _roof_ of L.Keller 1. This can be corroborated by the photo b (_Technique_, p.354) which shows the manhole cover mentioned in Document 46 on the remains of the collapsed roof at the east end of L.Keller 1.
Clearly, Mr. Allen has either evidenced astute "ignorance" of the details of Krema II or has been caught in a fabrication.
I leave it to the reader to decide.
[Van Alstine] Perhaps you would care to explain away all the above evidence for the existance of these "hypothetical" Zyklon B introduction columns?
[Allen] "I will, after I pin you down on the physical evidence existing at the scene of the crime. "
Mr. Allen, considering your above problem as to your intellectual abilities regarding the Zyklon B introduction hole in the roof of L.Keller 1, I would suggest you be more concerned about not "pinning" yourself in the foot!
[Allen] "Remember, it has only been a few weeks since you admitted that the Leichenkeller roof still exists. "
Mr. Allen, I have "admitted" that the roof of L.Keller has existed for many _months_. In fact, I have never denied it's _existance_, I have simply questioned how much of it was _intact_.
[Allen] "[snip discussion of strenght of column, for now]"
Oh? And why is this? I rather enjoued this discussion. I _do_ hope we can continue with it soon....
[Van Alstine] And your reply to this is to "hypothesize" that there were no "bolt holes" in the floor? Simply amazing.
[Allen] "What is amazing is that no one has ever found the bolt holes in the floor necessary to sustain your story that there was a porous column. "
And who has looked for them? Nobody to my knowledge yet. Certainly no scholars of repute that I know of.
[Allen] "No bolt holes equals no columns."
Actually, your empty assertions equals no argument.
[Allen] "Find some bolt holes and you will have the pleasure of seeing me eat my words!"
Indeed. But for the moment I would be most happy to see you explain why the "little chimneys," as you have claimed, never existsed on the roof of L.Keller 1 when there is a photograph of them on L.Keller 1.
Perhaps your "crow pie" will be ready sooner than you had hoped? Bon appetit!
[Allen] "[snip 2nd discussion of strenght of column, for now]"
How, dissappointing! I enjoyed this discussion too!
[Van Alstine] Simply put: Bullshit. You're being an ass by saying this. Both Dr. Nyiszli and Henryk Tauber told of the victims piling up _away_ from the pillars when they died.
[Allen] "This is interesting. There were four columns. What did the victims do, die in 5 lines between the columns? I * I * I * I * I How thoughtful of the victims. Did the Germans leave the lights on during the executions so that the victims could see and avoid the columns? How clever of the Germans. Did the victims, having been led halfway around the Crema building (please don't look in the windows, the chimneys are just for heating bath water), down a narrow stairway, into a low ceilinged basement, through small room*, right turn into another low ceilinged room (all on belief that they were going to take an underground shower) suddenly realize that these strange wire columns were emitting poison gas? What a sudden loss of innocence and scientific insight of the victims."
More vaccuous nonsense, Mr. Allen? How sad to be reduced to replyuing with drivel.... Tsk, tsk. When you can properly formulate a coherent reply maybe then I will be to answer you.
[Allen] "*Some Hoaxters, such as John Morris, claim that they even went through ANOTHER small room to finally get to the so-called gaschamber at the south end of Leichenkeller."
More ad hominen attacks? Tsk, tsk, Mr. Allen, you do yourself and your "arguments" a disservice!
[Van Alstine] Ho&ueml;ess told of 1/3 of the victims in the gas chamber, those immediately near the Zyklon B introduction columns, dying immediately when the Zyklon B was introduced.
[Allen] "Did the Germans open the cans of Zyclon and pour them down all four vent holes at the same time?
"What skilled synchroneity!
"Hoess's story has more holes in it than your porous pillars"
Ah, there you go with _more_ specious drivel, Mr. Allen. Do try and get a grip on yourself! When you do, perhaps you would care to articulate your replies in a more, er, _rational_ fashion? I would be most happy to reply with a reasoned rebuttal in that case.
[snip]
Please, Mr. Allen, take some time to compose yourself. You seem to be taking the refutation of your silly denier claims rather hard. When you are ratiojnal again, I do hope you will answer the questions that remain outstanding to you. After that I would be delighted to continue on with our dialogue.
[Allen] "Furthermore, I believe that the drainage system works and I known that the inside walls are generally intact.
[Van Alstine] And your basis for such assumptions, Mr. Allen?
[Allen] "Been there, seen it.
Mr. Allen, in article <4qqgbq$7fk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>you wrote: "> I discussed the state of the floor with several individuals who had the interest and integrity to actually visit the site."
Just to clarify things, Mr. Allen, did _you_ actually go to Auschwitz and carefully examine the remains of the floor and drainge system of the Krema II's L.Keller 1? If so, did you document this?
[Allen] "This would indicate that the original floor is still there waiting for somebody to find bolt holes in it."
Let repeat myself, seeing as you ungraciously edited my response out, Mr. Allen: Given that you are relying on previous unclear assumptions, Mr. Allen, one might be pardoned for being skeptical of _your_ assumptions, yes? Perhaps you would care to walk through _all_ your assumptions, citing all corrobarating evidence, step-by-step for us?
Well, Mr. Allen? Care to walk through _all_ your assumptions, citing all corrobarating evidence, step-by-step for us?
[Allen claims 'little chimneys' never existed]
Then please explain, Mr. Allen, the photo of Krema II, taken by the Bauleitung, that _clearly_ shows three "little chimneys" on the roof of L.Keller 1 (_Technique_, p.340, photos 17/17a). I am _still_ awaiting what must be a very illuminating answer....
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